Sylvaneth 2022 Battletome Review - Warhammer Weekly 07062022
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- Опубликовано: 27 май 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things warhammering! This week, we are breaking down the new Sylvaneth Battletome and talking all things trees!
0:00 Intro
16:20 Pick of the Week
22:00 Hobby Time
27:00 Sylvaneth
52:30 Allegiance
1:55:20 Warscrolls
3:11:30 Lists
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Big shoutout to Tyler for including us over at Strategoi in his Pick of the Week! Jonas has built a fantastic channel in the past half year or so, and I feel lucky to be a part of the team now. Can’t wait to see his and Nick’s reactions when they wake up over in Europe…
I know I personally was absolutely floored by the shoutout!
It really is a great channel!
Well, Tyler, I love being part of your *picks* of the week! For me, this is a big deal. We only started the channel a couple of months ago and we work hard on producing high quality videos with great visuals and commentary. Being mentioned by you on this channel is probably the coolest thing that happened to me in the last couple of months. Thank you so much and a shoutout to our subscribers that keep us motivated! 🥰
@@visuellegedanken Thanks a lot, Martin! We've been having a blast making content as well!
@@strategoi My pleasure gents! I've been really enjoying your channel.
@@TylerEmerson And though I highly doubt you’ll have registered this upon seeing my name, I’ve been a huge Tyler Stan in the comments section since before you took over temporarily for Tom, and I’m so glad you’re still on the show in a biweekly capacity.
On that note, Worlds 2023 was just announced to be hosted in my (current) hometown of Amsterdam, so if you find your way onto the team (or sign up for Singles), a drink’s def on me if you make your way over.
Good insights team... i'm a little worried the book will be overshadowed by bugs early on. It's a good book that should see more diverse lists
Hopefully the devs will roll out some bug fixes in an upcoming patch.
@@stephenmercerProductions This painful pun made me realize we made it through a 3+ hour Sylvaneth show WITHOUT A SINGLE TREE PUN. That's practically a miracle.
@@TylerEmerson Now that's restraint! It took all of my self control not to add one in this comment.
It will be interesting to see how the bugs shape up in the lists.
@@TylerEmersonVince did say ‘sapping’ at one point 😛
Played a game against a Sylvaneth list that seems a bit broken. Warsong Revenant with Acorn and the things that lets you cast spells from woods and in Gnarlroot, so 3d6 cast once per turn, protected by 30 Dryads inside a wood. Cast Spiteswarm Hive with +1, place it in the wood so it can never be dispelled. Give +3 charge to a unit of six Kurnoth Hunters with swords in Bounty Hunters. Teleport them into your opponent's face, make a 6" charge with a reroll, destroy whatever you're fighting, then Strike and Fade them back to the Hive. Rinse and repeat. For bonus points, on the second turn, cast the Revenant's warscroll spell through a wood.
I got double-turned by this from round 1-2, and half my army was just gone. I couldn't even fight back at any point. An obvious counter would be something with lots of screens or just no high-value targets at all, but I was playing a Herohammer Nighthaunt list. I thought 6 Spirit Hosts would give my heroes enough durability, but the Hunters just popped all of them and Lady Olynder in a single activation after she got hit with the Revenant's spell.
Yeah when we do the follow-up revisit show, after folks have gotten games in with them at tournaments, I'd love to dive deeper into these potential issues, including possible counters (e.g., fast hammers, a higher # of MSU screens, etc.). We'll see if they have set the points high enough with this battletome, given how powerful the book will feel at times. We talked about Idoneth as a comp for the book, and it's true on many levels. Idoneth has felt incredibly frustrating to play against over the years, because of their mobility and hitting power. Sylvaneth's main design signature now, Strike and Fade, has the obvious potential to create a similar frustrating experience, if not worse.
I can see that for sure, it's a challenge.
@@TylerEmerson looking forward to it! The most frustrating part for me is the lack of interactivity. If you fail to unbind the Spiteswarm Hive cast, you just need to hope that your opponent doesn't roll the 2+, or fails a 6" rerollable charge. The probability of failing at least one of those is only 23%, which seems like a very low risk for throwing a 500-point sledgehammer into your opponent with impunity.
One fix I can think of is to make the Spiteswarm Hive require you to be wholly within 9" of it when the charge is made to get the bonus. That way it's still good, but it doesn't let you strike anywhere on the board.
This kind of strategy can be shut down quite easily by standing within 3” of where they intend to jump to. Units like aetherwings are going to be boons to sylvaneth lists but also a real pain in the ass.
@@tombatsford7349 how can I shut it down when I don't get a turn while any of this is happening?
As ususal, a great show and a fun in-depth look into the Sylvaneth. Some thoughts I had while watching the video, particularly as a non-high level player:
- The Reaping Season seems like a nice, all-comers choice, great safety net and it basically extends what the woods already do well.
- Thank god they slimmed all the traits and relics down, it was pages before, and none of them were used.
- I agree with Tyler on the TLA. He naturally competes with the Warsong Revenant as a non-named caster, with compareable durability (Wounds vs. Ward). The Warsong has two Spells, a constant +1 to cast and can hide in woods, which IMO outperforms a Single Cast with the ability to place a single Tree once. The debate would be different if placing additional Woods was hard to come by, but its pretty abundant. Considering the Price difference the TLA has a problem. He is outcompeted as a caster by the Warsong and as a monster by the Spirit of Durthu. Making the TLA a 2/2 caster would considerably even the odds between the two. Even with the TLA as a 2/2 caster the Warsong would still be a very valid choice, owing to his Mortal wounds protection, cast bonus and ability to hide in woods.
- The Treelord makes me happy. I liked him previously, because he was a monster at a cheap 180 points and pairing him with a unit of Kurnoths brought results.
- Gossamids fill a niche for Sylvaneth, who historically struggled with dealing any amount of Mortal wounds outside of Drycha, and I am equally glad that you generally wont see more than 1x5 of them. Overall the Book looks like it wants many different unit in any given army.
- I like the Endless Spells and see myself taking any of these (I dont own a Purple Sun and keep forgetting that things outside of an armybook exist) and feel like they are more important as spells than three of the Deepwood Lore spells.
Overall it looks like a great book (Alarielle remains a hard sell playwise) and I look forward getting mine in the mail... one of these days.
Good thoughts all around. :)
Also cool thing to note re: Alarielle coming back to life turn 4 or 5, if you dont summon models from her before she dies, it can be a 840pt + whatever she brings in back late game
Yeah that's interesting! I think we will see some players do well with her at events. A # of factors have made her more viable, starting with Gnarlroot and her "I'm back!" mechanic.
100%
Also FYI, Mathmallow is hard onto Alarielle.
His list is currently:
Alarielle
Arch Rev /w Radiant & Tome
6x Bow Hunters
2x5 Tree Revenants
6x Seekers
That's great to hear. The book definitely lends itself to his playstyle over the last couple years.
I love this list.
its all good tyler. dont feel behind, cuz no painter will ever reach the finish line. the journey will still be here when you are ready.
That's right :)
Warsinger is good for pushing Spiterider Lancers up to Movement 20” together with the Hive.
Great point! Personally the bugs feel more like valuable parts of a varied set rather than 'hit the spam button.' I hope that turns out to be the case.
Good call, I do think they probably balanced the bugs correctly that spamming them won't be correct, but time will tell.
I have a friend who picked up Seraphon as his first army, before the 2.0 book dropped. His next army was Nurgle, right before the 3.0 book dropped. And he just started Sylvaneth, right before this book dropped. With his predictive track record, I have a good feeling about this book.
He is a prophet!
Regarding the FAQ stuff: Give us a page telling us what parts of what non-Battletome books are still legal. There's no rule anywhere saying that, once a Battletome comes out, all campaign/supplement book material no longer applies but if they're going to continue to print books like Wrath of the Everchosen, Broken Realms, etc. they need it.
This is in the GHB now.
@@NicoNarwhal No, it just generically says what books are legal, but there is actual value in knowing which parts of those books are actually still legal. The big example is Broken Realms: Belakor. It isn't entirely clear whether Reikenor's Condemned is still legal. Did the Nighthaunt book get rid of both processions or just replace Emeralf Host? Warhammer World events are allowing Reikenor's, but I've also seen posts saying there are TOs not allowing it. 40k just lets everyone know without ambiguity what portions of what publications are legal.
Yes, my understanding is basically any new book invalidates the old options. It wouldn't make sense that the old subfactions are in play when there are new subfactions. That being said, I've been pushing for a while for the idea of having a simple PDF download that has all the up to date, currently matched play legal books/contents in it.
Thank you for the kind words Tyler!
:)
these last 2 books have really impressed me. sylvaneth walks a fine tightrope of balancing a lot of units with some complicated mechanics. skaven did a great job of making a bonkers amount of warscrolls almost all feel like theres a reason to take them in contrast with their previous tome which was 70% duds or redundant units.
the only 3E books that have really irked me would be SCE, warclans, and DoK. warclans and SCE just feel like they had some forgotten elements or forlorn units that felt like GW just wanted to forget about them. DoK i dislike because they left in some of the biggest NPE mechanics in place and in some ways exacerbated them, particularly to do with morathi, bow snakes, and rally.
That makes sense.
Huge point. Spiteswarm Hive does not activate in your opponent’s hero phase. It would be so broken if it did. “in that player’s army”.
You are correct, I caught that too, but I was too late into the show to mention it. It should be 60 points. ;)
spell portal specifically says not allowed to use endless spells, woods does not so works
Oh sure, I am 95% with you, but I hope all the same. ;)
Brilliant show. Glad you see my trees on WW. I’m assuming this is the very active David on fb with his opinions 😁 haha good takes - and Adam R seems very pleased with his mention in the sylvaneth chat
Absolutely :)
Maybe this has been said but can you ally cities in there? I can't add a battlemage in the app so I'm just wondering! Nice breakdown!
Yep, Cities is an ally. :)
Completely disagree on not needing extra woods.
The current GHB has plans that are 50/50 divided so we are very limited in our choices of overgrown and therefore would need trees.
Sure, that's why I said like 2, I think that's enough when you're placing single woods.
But what did our founders think about that Akhelian King FAQ back in 1776?
It's a great point. ;)
I would say the tree lord anchient is a psuedo double caster with a once per game spell that auto cast and can't be unbind summoning a small awakened wild wood. Also if he's your only monster he still has the strike last stomp to act as a support peice. Lastly, as y'all said he another fighty thing that is relatively tough to remove. I'd say give him a native ward or a passive heal (more in line with the army).
Agreed.
Love the show. I'm super happy with the new book. I have about 7k points of Sylvaneth, including 2x5 Gossamids and LoV, but I'm not really tempted with the bug riders. I feel that I already have every needed tool in my army. Bugs are fast, but this army doesn't really need that speed, to be honest.
Few notes: The Reaping is the best. 12" bubble is massive. It's also great for Strike and Fade - you are not worried about leaving 9" bubble after the 9" charge etc. Rerolling casting rolls is great, especially in Gnarlroot, but The Reaping is great in any list.
There's super massive thing that should be noted about Sylvaneth heroes: we have access to the super powerful leaders that fits wholly within 3" of the Lauchon. Drycha, Treelord Ancient, Durthu with a Arcane Tome. I run Drycha, Ancient and Warsong in my list. It's typical Warsong+Ancient's Wood Nuke + Drycha dropping 9" from the enemy with a Lauchon, moving up to 9", annihilating everything and then using Strike and Fade. It's a really powerful combo that can nuke a lot of dangerous enemy units.
Yep, there are some powerful options here for sure.
In Vince's DoK example of the FAQ implications, I would've thought that the aura was 'counted' where they started and where they finished their move, but not during the process of moving models, I didn't know that anything was counted within a phase vs. the beginning and end of it. Is it true that you lose an aura during the window of moving models even if the aura provider and receiver end up next to each other?
Nope, they actually clarify this in the sidebar in the core rules of when aura's trigger.
there is no debate on the endless spell thing. endless spells are cast through spells. and spells can cast through tree portals. (edited)
Well, endless spells don't go through the spell portal (they have their own rules for interacting with spell portal itself), but I suspect you're right (or at least, I am 95% sure you are correct). I am more hoping the FAQ it just because it's not healthy.
@@VinceVenturella sorry my original intent for the word "portal" was treeportals with spellsinger. the rules state endless spells are cast by spells, in rule 19.3 the first words of spellsinger is "when this general casts a spell"
purple sun being broken shit is a completely different argument. and i agree it should just strait lose its dust effect. but that doesnt mean sylvaneth should lose their ability to cast endless spells through trees. if it wernt for purple sun, which is a problem in more than sylvaneth this wouldnt even be a blip on the radar.
edit: to fix purple sun would fix many issues. to nerf spellsinger would nerf 1 army, but wouldnt solve the problem of purple sun. and nerfing purple sun would also fix the problem with this army. basically. why make 10 changes to each army to make purple sun balanced in them when you can just change purple sun and fix all the armies at once?
Sorry to be off topic Vince but I know you've been looking for an accurate, rich gold metallic paint. I've just tried Hot Commodity, a paint by Turbo Dork, it looks exactly like my gold wedding ring. I highly recommend you give it a try.
I'll have to give it a try.
about the faq, surprised you didnt mention they updated a bunch of them without removing old endless spell warscrolls, like the nighthaunt one. also BR : Belakor still mentioning the nighthaunt stuff corrections while they should have updated it to say cannot be used anymore
I assume that was all an error and will be corrected. :)
On FAQ re:characteristic changes. I think it’s possible that some combinations ended more powerful/easy to achieve than intended, and perhaps they are future-proofing, allowing for phrases like “double the damage characteristic” or “double the move characteristic” to not create absurd characteristics when combo’d with other bonuses. Perhaps they DoK wasn’t supposed to get to Rend 3 so easily. I appreciate toning down/limiting some stuff like this - it’s something you’ve asked for on the show, similar to toning down LongStrikes hero phase shooting. It also sidesteps the need to drastically change points values to reestablish some balance, changes that often move the unit to a disproportionate cost. I think it’s a good change, and much needed. It’s in line with the idea that you are capped at +/- 1 to most things as a core aspect of the game.
It could be a sensible change, but it likely needs some more infrastructure under it. It's very counterintuitive without any other rules to support it. I don't disagree in any way with your point, but counterintuitive rules are always a challenge.
You 95% can cast the spell that summons an endless with Spellsinger through a Wyldwood. All the version 2 wording preventing it has been deleted in v3 (which is why Morathi’s double range tech also disappeared). It’s very strong.
Notably Arkhan plus Nagash became a thing in v3 for putting portal distant and then 9” Hand of Derp!
As much as right now, it’s strong, Teclis will just bulldoze this combo with his auras and auto unbind and dispel. There has never been more anti-spell tech with Banshees, FS and of course Seraphon out there.
Nighthaunt are a gigantic problem for Purple Sun enthusiasts.
The reason why the defences vs Endless Spells have to specify “abilities of an Endless Spell” is that the Endless Spell is just a Warscroll with a set of abilities attached. Only the “Summoning” is an actual spell.
and that is exactly why the skullroot is super strong. I dont think vince point of view on utility vs damage is true. The warsongs main gameplan is to bomb holes into multiple units and if you reach a critical mass, then units get bravery problems. The skullroot enables that strategy, it is not just damage, it is also synergy. This is why i think warsong bomb + skullroot + archers can do some work turn 1.
I agree with your read, I just want it to be the other way. And I stand behind my Purple Sun point. The upside of Skullroot and some bombs is some mortal wounds (good), the upside of the Purple Sun is you accidentally win the game turn 1. That is a big upside and people don't have ward saves against it. ;)
@@VinceVenturella i agree with you, the purple sun is a bit problematic in it's core design. I share your view on switching the points of the endless spells in the book also. I dont think that bee hive should be 60 points though, in my point of view the hive / battlemage are essential for the whole army to function and i dont feel like sylvaneth can take 60 points of tax to make their alliance abilities work properly in the context of external balance.
My main gripe with the book is that it just relies too heavily on those deepstrike charges, which are unreliable at best. having your big blob of kurnoth stuck in the middle of the board is a game ending experience, unfortunately.
Could anyone tell me why ghur battle mage is included in these lists?
His spell is +2 Run/Charge, very powerful with so much teleporting.
I just want to point out that your magic counter point is incorrect, magic actually works exactly how we want AoS to work. If you frogify a creature with base 3/3 and 3 +1/+1 counters. It becomes base 1/1 with 3 +1/+1 counters and any effects that get attached to it after like increasing power/toughness or giving it firststrike still apply.
You know what, you're exactly right. :)
So my girlfriend just started this army because the liked the idea of an army of angry ents. Though she has only been playing for a year and mostly just played Nurgle. So looks like I have a lot of teaching to do.
Yes indeed, that being said, Oakenbrow March of the Ents is fun and perfectly viable. :)
@@VinceVenturella that’s great as when I told her that was playable she got really excited.
Anyone gave a pic of the lady of vines conversion? Link is paywalled.
It should just be twitter. I didn't notice any issue when I clicked it.
@@VinceVenturella my bad, sorry I was clicking the season of war RUclips link. Didn't see the twitter link at the bottom!
On the subject of magic and shout outs, found a guy who made all the battle tactics as Magic cards :)
I found him too, for he is me. ;)
@@VinceVenturella really?
Then hats off! 🎩 played my first game yesterday with the new missions and the cards helped so much to make me feel I was on my personal quest!
The Oakenbrow list is not legal because you need 12 total units to run the 3 ally units.
Oh shoot, great catch, Aaron. I always forget about that damn rule. Well, it wouldn't be a show unless I'm showcasing an illegal list, or the wrong person's list, or...
Got em! ;)
@@TylerEmerson hey it's all good. i remember you reaching out to me a couple years ago on TGA asking my thoughts for a Sylv book. I'm still debating on a list for a 1-day event next weekend. Would love to connect with you at some point again.
Like for 🌳, 🐕, and 3rd Ed battletomes continuing to be interesting.
Absolutely!
I actually prefer the controversial faq change, it makes the rules do what they say they do
I suppose from a certain POV yes, but it is more to track and many will find it counter intuitive. :)
Buuuuuut the ultimate question, is it better than the nurgle book?
Tough call, they are the best two. I think it's just under. BUt only just.
D3 as one ... "Every roll with a D3 i made was always 1" that's just a lie... it's 50-66% dmg increase compared to 25% with crown
The key being, you are trying to make sure that 6 damage lands and smooth out the curve, but my real point was that also works for other units attacking, which is what makes it way more valuable.
@@VinceVenturella That's true, no roll attached and a more potential are good points.
Hi Kathy, I love her imput
Always fun when she visits. :)
I utterly despise strike and fade. If it was end of combat phase to teleport fine great. The take a huge hitter teleport in, Strike, teleport out is extremely frustrating for me and the armies I play.
Otherwise I do like the book.
Yeah it's a very powerful mechanic, especially against certain armies. With melee armies, all else equal, it probably further increases the necessity of balancing a sufficient # of screens + multiple fast hammers. I think GHB2022's set of incentives are pushing us toward more layers of screens, anyway. In the review show a few weeks back, we mentioned multiple small units (MSU) as a possible response to Bounty Hunters - and Strike and Fade + 3"-touching overgrown/Wyldwoods to turn them off further amplifies the value of MSU.
Yeah, it's going to be a thing to watch, how much is it really a problem, I suspect for some armies, a big one, for others, not at all, and that's tough.
I've gone ahead and told people that I won't play against lists that use Purple Sun. That thing is "have a bad time" in condensed form. Insta-gibbing all of your expensive models on the field isn't fun, funny, or skillful--it's just bullocks.
I get that, I won't run it in my list.
I really missed Tom on this one
We always miss Tom
Ofc Vince hates the models with the best hair.
There you go.
Super Duper Portal / Broken Version:
- Measure from any Awakened Wyldwood (not just the one you are nearby)
- Can be spells or endless spells
On a more serious note:
How would Spellsinger work with Lady of Vines who is treated as an Awakened Wyldwood?
And Astral Templars counters Oakenbrow, got it
@@cmleibenguth LoV is not treated as an AW. Models wholly within her are considered as within AW. That's a huge difference. This also means that you can't releport to her - but you can teleport from her.
Yep, Mithlinthar nailed it.
Responding to the question why not let players choose their allegiance based on each match vs when building their army- note I’m a brand new player with no experience, Sylvaneth & Skaven just happen to be the two armies I’m committed to for all the reasons described- this is just what immediately came to mind. You guys started out by gleefully noting what an open book this is and how many directors it could viably go, and how this army has a smattering of toolbox answers. But giving the army too much leniency to be malleable might have the opposite outcome and homogenize lists to go all in on jack of al trades rather than it be a build around component, which is what’s partially lending itself to this idea of incentivizing players to play in the style they want. Sometimes having constraints is actually what enables player choice on the backend. Does that make sense? Again I love how both Sylvaneth and Skaven have this sort of roll with it feel and thematically there’s just no other option. Hopefully I can pick up enough useful information to keep up, casually, having a lot of fun painting. Thanks for all the great content
Totally agreed,
👍👍
Like and comment for doggos and warhammer widow!
:)
For better or for worse I think 19.3.1 is clear about summoning an endless spell. You cast the spell to summon the endless spell. There is also a clarfification text that says: “The spell used to summon and endless spell is still a spell for rules purposes. It therefore counts as 1 of the spells a Wizard is allowed to attempt to cast in your hero phase”.
Yeah, I think you're right. I just really want it to be wrong. ;)
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