You're quickly becoming one of my favorite youtubers. You upload like a madman, you always have valid points, you have a kick ass mug collection and youre a handsome dude!
I think one possible way of making solo play more viable for healers and tanks is something similar to the Companion system from SWTOR, where you had an NPC ally at all times when playing alone. While not perfect, and perhaps requiring some more micromanagement than just playing alone, I think it does help, and provides a bit of practice and strategy.
FF14 has this as well. You get a chocobo companion in game. You level it by training and feeding and it can be a tank, dps or healer. Only usable in open world, super helpful as a bro who always plays healers.
@@smithz800 SWTOR's companions are similar, with "Gifts" being used to level up their Influence (providing bonuses to crafting missions and combat), but they used to also be able to take gear. I personally prefer a hybrid system because I like to gear up my allies (and because it would extend my playtime before i'm "done" lol)
Guild Wars 1 had this system, except you could have multiple NPC allies fill in for other players, and it worked quite well. That said, sometimes companions also make players feel bad. If you look at Josh's review of Astellia, one of the main complaints was that having a companion made him feel unimportant.
Thats why i like guild wars 2 and possiblity to change your attributes and equipment to what you wanna play in any class, be it tank, dps or support if grouped, or just make solo open world build with survivability and bit lower dps
Yep, i was going to say the same. GW2 does what Josh suggested, although not exactly the same it's pretty similar. Every class is casual solo playable, only when players get into high-endgame they need to start maximizing their class potential and organizing groups with healers and certain buffs from certain classes. Some classes are able to change into healers as needed, and others simply change a small part of their build to bring specific buffs or types of damage depending on the group and the encounter.
Yes but GW2 is a game made to make everyone feel like a winner, a very modern "participation trophy for everyone " concept, which is something that i really hate, i need danger and difficulty or i loose interest. If everyone can do something regardless of skill, then it's all an illusion, you are not achieving anything. That's my problem with guild wars 2, and the leveled creatures. You should be able to play the game alone, but that doesn't mean everyone should ve able to achieve victory, that is why the Souls series is so beloved.
This is what I love about ESO. Your class doesn't really determine your role on the team. You can hybridize for solo play, go all out into one of the holy trinity, whatever you want really. Hell, you can mix and match a combination of light, medium and heavy armor to suit your needs
@@anvos658 This is only true for absolute endgame content. Most dungeons, even in vet mode, can be done with suboptimal classes. It is only when you consider trials or DLC vet dungeons that it starts being a big issue.
I'd say ESO paid for that with a lack of class identity. All classes do more or less the same kind of things. All healers buff, all DD use dots and a spammable, all tanks use one of the two single target taunts and have a spell that gives the major resistance buff. You don't have a full DOT warlock that can teleport another player by channeling a portal with 2 friends. You don't have a goblin shaman who empower the next damage spell after healing a lot, and vice versa. You don't have a stealthy class that can use postern gates to sneak into an enemy fortress in pvp. You don't have a shaman that can walk on water and summon totems. You don't have a cultist who can heal his team by dealing damage in mele range. You don't have a class with auras, or stances, or combo points, or special weapons, or dedicated craft, or special quests... In ESO most class identity are limited to cosmetic stuff : You can be a fire breathing knight, aplying a debuff and a dot ! You can be a warden with an eagle.. what does it do ? it spawn, charge, apply a dot/debuff, and vanish until you need the dot refreshed. One use the magic of fire, the other the magic of bird =p but they more or less do the same thing. I mean, it's a great game. I truely like and played it a lot. ^^ But this cool all class do everything thing came at a great cost IMO. =)
@@MacPlaysRed I guess it depends what you consider true vet content. For me, it’s every dungeon Dragon Bones and onward. Granted I last played a year ago, but you still need a dedicated tank and DPS for vFL and vSCP. Healers become more important with each DLC after that(unless they finally nerfed vigor like they needed to, in which case they’re a lot more valuable.) Stuff like vLoM and the kitty vampire dungeon HM I’ll want a proper team though. vCT HM too.
I'm assuming the reason you have eso playing in the background is becasue eso already does this and does it well, i've recently had two friends who until recently had only been playing the older fashioned mmorpg's, and they have been amazed at the class flexibility and the ability for specific builds such as healer and tanks to be able to function solo in story content then step into a dungeon and still fill their role perfectly with a group, it's been a really eye opening experince for me being a from launch player of the game and makes me appreciate just how good eso really is.
Good video. Been really enjoying your stuff. If this is going to be a whole series, I'd like to see you address the "Fun" balance. I know a lot of people don't like the trinity because wait times for DPS always suck. So they want to get rid of it when what needs to happen is to make the non DPS choices more "fun". Fun being in quotes cause I know people have different opinions on what is fun.
100% agree. The issue is that tanking and healing are less rewarding while also having a much steeper learning curve. In WoW, healing requires an almost entirely different UI than the one you've been using while leveling, and the best ones are only attainable from third-party sites rather than in-game, and the game itself has absolutely no tutorials on their use. RUclips and the community bridge that gap somewhat but I can't think how many people realize what endgame healing entails and just give up on the role entirely. Similarly, Tanking involves not just the skills of doing decent damage and rotating your cooldowns to survive damage spikes , but also skills like routing and pathing through the dungeon, boss and trash knowledge, and even the capabilities (cc and utility) of all your teammates so you can lead correctly. When the game doesn't do enough to teach the players these skills, you end up with toxicity from the players who expect tanks and healers to already know them, and that leads to long wait times for dps as newer players wanting to try these roles are reluctant to sign up just to get flamed.
Things that hurt Tank "fun" Damage Dealer are doing so much DPS that you can not hold agro by focussing on your strenght (def) but have to infest into dps or the damage dealers have to make breaks into their rotations just so you can generate enough agro - Agro generation based on "threat level" As long as you have the "I am the target" skill you are the target (especially toggle buffs) and nothing else to focus on. Your action is rush in hit everything ONCE and wait gameplay over. Or just press 1button over and over again. Outragously inept teammembers gaming system. (Rappelz, had agro skills that could only agro a set number of mobs.) Try to generate enough agro on 10 mobs if the skill only agros 5 mobs. People die and you get the blame for something you could not possibly change. Next time I have to do better? not possible stop pulling more than you kill easily. PVP: Half of th skills being useless. Healing item drain pvp as the rogue can full heal easily but your potion "bleed out" Soloplay: Not being able to kill mobs in a reasonable amount of time (what Josh said) Soloplay: The amount of healing potions or skills you need to get back into action (not wanting to take away from the healer, but the ranger in most games does not have to take care of arrows, but tanks are a money sink for healing) The tank is a whole discussion on its own, with def vs hp tank pro and cons etc
@@verzeihturncoat27 tank for life.... most fun to play because of all the downs it has! Although as also mentioned you’ll never hear “great job tank” .... and for the healers, if nobody dies “dps op” .. of someone dies “crappy healer” ... DPSs seem to have their own standards and be on the higher league ... meh..
I think RIFT (R.I.P.) really had a great setup for group composition. Being able to hybrid most any class into something that feels comfortable for solo. Then being able to fill one of 4 roles: tank, healer, dps, and support. Support being there to shore up any weaknesses, debuff enemies, buff allies, and help the other roles perform better.
I would prefer if we had Support as a Fourth Role, and classes were a combination of two, like a Tank+Healer, DPS+Support, Healer+DPS and so on. I think it would open up for some interesting teamwork options
I personally enjoy ESO in that sense though I can only speak of my experience in 2 of the 6 classes (Dragonknight and Warden). Playing solo is fairly achieveable by customising myself into a balance of all roles and in group I can change my setup to focus into a single role. Though the aspect of all roles buffing each other is not entirely there as it typically falls onto the tanks and healers to do that with their abilities and set bonuses while DPS focus entirely on their damage output and avoiding deadly mechanics. I still really enjoy my time as a tank (and also my queue times) and my experience has allowed me to tutor many groups and hold my own to turn around many bad situations with otherwise less experienced players.
Josh your videos are awesome resources. Such deep analysis of mmo systems uploaded regularly is hard to find. I really hope game developers are watching your channel
Your suggestion was pretty much the methodology of FFXIV's class/job balance. Every role can meaningfully progress through the MSQ and most open world content solo but only really show their full potential in Full-Party (8 character) content.
A little unrelated but one thing I really loved about ffxiv's class balance and design was how their were no skill trees yet you could play all classes on one character.
Yep. Tanks have party buffs that reduce incoming raid wide damage. Healers have partywide shields/regens. DPS jobs (can) have team buffs that increase one or more damage metrics.
@@JaxParowFF There is also a general 1% hp/damage/healing buff for having at least 1 member of your party be each role (tank/healer) and subroll (melee/ranged/caster).
@@leadpaintchips9461 That is more the result of flaws in FFXIV's Fight Design. High end fights have such tight enrages and such low healing, add management and survival requirements that doing damage becomes tanks and healers primary duties. The current tanks and healers of FFXIV could handle a lot more tank and healer duties but fights are more designed for dps.
I still remember the end dungeon party (the equivalent of raids) on Neverwinter when I played (around the cash dupe where everyone got a stupid cape as apologies). The set up was two priest as tanks and healers (they had an aoe damage reduction buff that stacked) walking in circles around the bosses to avoid the line attacks. Two control mages that would cc and aoe the adds that EVERY BOSS HAD. Agro them and kite them untill the boss died. Or group them and throw them off a cliff. And me. A rogue that had to solo all the bosses while taking maximum 3 hits to die (had to go full damage). I still remember being drenched in sweat while soloing the final skeletal? Lich dragon boss. Even droped my BiS as a reward. However, the tank class and the warrior class had NOTHING exept pvp, since the dungeons had so many adds and the damage they did was so high there was no fucking way to survive and kill the boss. At best the rest of the team would try to survive while I solo'ed the boss. So yeah. My friend group and I stoped playing, because I was the only one having fun. Class balance. Or at the very least, making all classes viable in a team has always been the most important thing for me in a mmo.
I know this is kind of a joke but I can see this guy working closely with developers of a new mmo who’s main purpose is to change/refine new/older mmo systems.
This is excellent! You’ve addressed the dynamic landscape of players and the different play styles that each one has. Very good! In terms of the holy trinity, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on where crowd control and de-buffing/buffing fits. I know from my own experiences that there are many players that want to support, but don’t like straight up healing, and those who like healing, but don’t enjoy the extra strings attached to a support play style.
True although personally playing an unusual build that really gives the enemy a hard time is hilarious to do, because it just drains them of resources so fast and breaks up their rotation. Most people can't handle it.
Imo most classes should be able to have CC. Buffing and debuffing could also make sense on most classes so why not make everyone able to spec into it if they want. Make a weak version base line and let them specc into it. Dunno.
For the trifecta synergy, it could be achieving the same goals through indirect means - the dps deals raw damage, but the tank and/or the healer deals crap damage, but debuffs enemy defenses - which makes the damage dealer happy.
I agree with this. I do think retail wow has this already. I can easily solo casual content as tanks and healers. Sometimes it can go a bit slower but it's not too bad. I usually don't feel the need to swap to DPS while questing as a healer main.
I have the feeling that FFXIV does a lot of these things really good. I am a main tank and there is no damage problem whatsoever. The same goes for a friend who is a main healer.
The main issue with XIV balance isn't the jobs themselves, but encounter design. Damage comes in too slowly and in too small amounts outside of Ultimate raids and a select few Savage raids, so healers barely have to heal whatsoever
@@eryes1218 this! While I absolutely love how balanced FFXIV's combat system is, it kind of bothers me that with each new patch, most content from previous patches get trivialized. I can imagine how anti climactic it would feel to new players when the ultimate boss fight that the game was building up to ends without a single mechanic popping up.
@@joey6417 To be fair, the level sync, silence echo and min ilvl exist which allows you to 'mostly' experience the content as intended. Obviously, stuff like Coils is VERY different from when that was current, but still, you can still experience its challenge and mechanics as intended. The issue at that point is getting a group of people willing to do it too.
@@eryes1218 From what they've said and shown (especially with the healer rework), it sounds like for Endwalker there's likely to be a lot more emphasis on heals, and also on tanks using their defensive cooldowns properly. So I wouldnt be surprised if we see a change in encounter design to an extent.
I quite like this approach. I could imagine having a variety of classes with different "morale boost" values, possibly even a class that specializes in further boosting them or interfering with enemy boosts. Perhaps distance has some bearing on this system; I can imagine a lot of interesting scenarios making use of that.
I feel this works especially from wha ti've seen in ff14. When I'm soloing as a heaerl, it's a bit long but i never really feel threatened, same with tank a s most have some innate sustain and then dps i find the hardest, mostly blackmage due to their lower defences. mana ward being their main defence where as redmage is ridiclous solo sustain.
My first job was BLM and I agree. Things while leveling definitely felt though sometime but still never unbeatable. But it would be really nice to have even a temporary "leveling buff" to defenses for BLM and other DPS.
I feel like that's what your Chocobo companion is for. If you're playing a DPS, you can give it tanking and/or healing skills as it levels up. If you're playing a healer or tank, you can give it DPS skills to help kill things faster.
6:15, yes. Its a very good setup. One of the funniest moments it came up for me wasn't even an RPG. It was Huniepop 2. Playing on hardmode with all the traumas makes different characters able or forced to specalize in certain styles of gifts. Like the girl who at random adds a negative token to the board when she does a match. This combos very well with a item that turns negative tokens into bonus movements and turns her into a efficient "Healer".
My answer is simple, because it was/is already done to perfection: Guild Wars 1. 6 classes. 1 primary attribute, at least 3 secondary. Pick 2 classes for each character (not mandatory). Only get primary attribute of your character's class (secondary can be switched at will). Now, each of the three secondary attributes is a specific playstyle. In general, the primary attribute was for survival, one attribute for direct damage, one for utiliy/disruption and one for utility/debuff. For example the warrior; Best damage -> Axe. Most disruption -> hammer. Most debuff effects -> Sword. With the ability to pick a secondary class and ALL the skills of that class, you can mix and match as you like. This resulted in things like the "bunnythumper", a ranger with warrior secondary. Using hammer and hammer skills, while using a pet. When the pet dies (which counts as an ally) a warrior shout can be used to gain additional buffs. You had warrior elementalist, running enchantments to deal increase damage on each attack. You had warrior elementalist using an ability that caused knockdown, but as an axe user. You had monks that were the best lategame farmers. You had mesmers instantly casting the strongest elementalist spells. You had necromancer mesmer that did nothing but drain mana and DoT. The options were endless. The variety of builds people came up with to "beat the meta" was staggering. And they achieved all this without interfering with the PVE part of the game (until the last expansion, nightfall, which had completely broken skills and they ended up having to make PVP skills. But honestly the expansion also killed the game to start). So yeah, do what guild wars did. Oh and you can change attributes/secondary class/skills completely anytime you are in town, for free. OH! and PVP characters; everything you unlocked in PVE can be used, rest unlocked through play. You could be a highlevel PVPer without ever touching the PVE.
I’m in the camp that leveling solo needs to be mostly viable. I don’t mind the occasional mandatory group content for leveling if there’s systems in place to make sure you find a group (like FFXIV’s level synced Duty Finder plus roulettes), but solo friendly leveling means my friends and I can level separately and on our own pace and limited play time isn’t wasted looking for groups. I’m fine with either having each class able to solo leveling content or giving players NPC party members for said content (like Trusts in FFXI).
Indeed XIV is finely polished, to the point small differences in job performance stand out, all can solo field content....except for the megaboss FATEs/NMs. To fill out the roles, chicken-bird-aoe-sponge. Though what bioware used to do with teamates was nice. SWtOR with companion. The weakness there was the companions shouldve been slightly weaker and instead each player shouldve been able to have upto 3. And even more importantly the companions should be able to follow the player on a mount to still provide commentary whilst traveling.
I think the MINIMUM survive is the most important thing here. Games are hard to always play with multiple people and sometimes you want to just no strings attatched explore the map or do a small quest at your own pace
A lot of games give each of the three core classes additional class specific traits to make solo play for all of them possible. Damage dealers get high mobility, enabling them to avoid attacks while dealing massive damage. Tanks use slow but powerful attacks, facetanking most of the incomming damage while still being able to do some damage themselves. And healers can be able to summon minions which do the fighting and tanking for them and which they can command and keep alive. Of course all three classes still benefit greatly from working together.
Same as ESO, both games are great in every way, the only problem with FF XIV is on pvp, where tanks are almost immortal if you don't focus an entire group of dps to kill just one of them, while healer is also really hard to kill but with a decent burst you can still kill them, in ESO most of the roles can switch with a few changes and be decent at dmg or solo gameplay and useful both in pvp and pve, of course if you make a character with one main content in mind, like only pvp or only pve, or only solo content it will be crazy good in that, but awful in the rest of the content. Anyway FF XIV for me is still the superior mmorpg compared with any other mmo that i played. Square Enix is insane, they never disappoint with the new content and every class feels unique and yet really balanced in team content. Of course you have classes with more dps than others but most of the times more dps=less utility skills, wich means in a savage content you will end needing some of the non top dps to balance the group and rise the dps.
@@rhythmauthority5314 what do you consider to be a sizeable community? data center might matter here. Primal's PVP community basically doesn't exist. anyone with a rank doesnt even play ranked anymore cause they simply just keep it, no play required
As someone who's been playing since ARR beta, PvP side of the game was always almost nonexistent. I watched the PvP go through some... Strange changes. In the beginning, PvP was similar to what I experienced in WoW (Scholar/AST were kings, certain classes were awful), but I saw a lot of interest in it. Then they completely chucked that system out the door and revamped it into something much more bland... PvP is barely noticible nowadays.
The holy trinity is what we got when wow simplified the genre... in EQ, and DAOC, there where other essential tasks, like crowd control, a puller, and a buffer/support.
Sorry for wall of text. Here's a short version of the content: - Have a whole party under your control instead of a single character (like in Dragon age: Inquisition) ----> Solving the balance problems, by always having a full party around ----> Not controlled characters will be AI controlled (like in dragon age) ----> have the ability to quickly swap between your toons in combat (like in dragon age) - Turn the main stream open world building upside down ----> Open world is the hub (instead of the main place for most questings) ----> Most of the questing, fighting and storytelling shifted to instanced areas ----> Consistent (open) world (changing) progression through Event chains ----> System for new players to experience these events as an instanced encounter with huge player limits - Instanced areas can be played coop by sharing the player slots with each others parties (you get to choose which of your characters you bring into the dungeon until all slots are filled) -------------------- I pondered about this issue too. The problem I saw, was playing a healer is not fun for the solo content, because it is slow and boring. Even if I could build my healer into something self sufficient, I would have the wrong gear and build for any team oriented content / whenever I actually want to team up with others. Then I remembered in which game I liked playing a healer the most: Guild Wars 1. What does this game have, no other MMORPG has? NPC followers. Now before you crucifix and burn me alive, at least hear me out... Imagine instead of creating just one toon, you'd create your whole party! Imagine you create your team of 4 individual characters, have a tank, a healer, a dps and a "wild card" (bard? utility- non healing support or an extra dps?). And when you venture out you always travel with, level and enhance your whole party instead of a single character. This means all the content can be balanced around a well rounded team comb and doesn't have to leave room for all different classes to be able to solo things. And if you team up with other players you share the slots. (example: If you want to do a 4 men dungeon with just one friend both of you get to choose 2 of their toons to bring with) In combat I imagine you got a button to switch between the characters (maybe in gamepad this may be the cross could be used and on PC the F1 to F4 buttons). You now could run around with your tank and aggro the mobs / pull them, then in fight you can swap to your favourite role and play as you wish. High skilled players may swap frequently between characters to achieve better micro. Or in dangerous areas you may scout ahead with your stealthy thief. You now always have a full party with all the gadgets at hand and it's up to you to use them to their full potential. The main issue I still stumble upon is the open world aspect of MMORPGs. Usually they are forgettable boring at best and annoying & immersion breaking at worst. With this I mean the "farm X mobs" and then there's like 50 other players standing on that very spot and killing the same mobs and you literally have to wait and hope to get the kills. Or the story driven "OMG, the house is burning, please extinguish it" and 5 seconds after you did that it start burning again, because the next person need to extinguish something too, right? I think together with the system of having a whole party under your control the game itself should shift more towards GW1 instanced areas and hubs, but not as much as GW1 was. I think the big open world should act as a huge hub and then there should be lots of instanced areas within this huge hub. This way you can travel around and meet other players, the world would feel alive. But when you actually get sent off to do something specific, you'd go there and enter an instanced area where other players can't break the immersion. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be any activities in the "hub world". Things where it makes sense to have lots of people do something together or fluff and minigame stuffs. Like event chains leading up to a big world boss fight, jumping puzzles and other minigames. I oftentimes read people really like the open world aspect where a random person can come across and help you in a dire situation. But in all the years of me playing MMORPGs it's more often (almost always) annoying "kill stealing" or turning an already trivial task into an even easier encounter, kind of situation coupled with sometimes insane mob spawn rates when too many players are around. I'd be happy to sacrifice this minimal chance for a random helper in order to dramatically improve the gaming experience. If the open world hub would change due to story telling (which is an exciting thing and make you feel like you exist in a changing world where things actually happen), I'd implement this like a season story system coupled with the already mentioned open world events and world boss system. New players would arrive in the time and situation the game is at the moment. To catch up with the story and things that happened, there would be festive seasons for each of those big events granting the players the possibility to relive the events in an instanced area with huge player count. Imagine something like a 2 week festive time from 1. August to 14. August every year, where in game the world is celebrating the fall of the big evil wizards tower and in this time you could go to the shamans hut and eat some shrooms, drink some booze and smoke some tobacco and then fall into a trance and get sent back into the past, together with all the other players, who want to relive that specific event (or experience it for the first time).
Great respect for 13:45. I feel like that's perceived as a forbidden statement but it's something my friend and I have discussed at length for over decade at his point.
im pretty toasty rn, but I was able to conceptualize/visualize a few of these cross-role support buffs mentioned around 11:50 DPS: Rallying Presence - all party members receive X% increase to parry/block chance // Call for Aide: marks target player, increasing all healing that player receives by X% for Y duration TANK: Imposing Presence - all nearby enemies have X% reduced evasion against attacks made by players not being targeted // Fortuitous Spirit: Healing received from allies returns a % of Mana back to the caster HEALER: Crucial Presence - all party members receive increased armor based on missing % of max HP // Battle Tactics: marks targeted player, increasing cooldown reduction on defensive abilities for each enemy targeting the marked player obvs these names and whatever are kinda goofy, but the concept was cool enough that I could imagine what those kinds of buffs would look like
Part of this balance comes down to the efficiency of dps. Every MMO I've played forces players (to varying degrees) to do story content as a dps, or have a companion that fills this role. Some games, like ESO, make it as simple as using dps oriented gear, and give you access to enough variety of skills. Other people here have already mentioned the companions from SWTOR. The first option still asks you to play a style you may not want to play, and the second relies on your ability to direct your companion(s), or their AI. Some esoteric solutions exist, such as exploiting terrain or enemy AI, but these can lead to longer, often more boring, solo play. This all stills distills down to damage output being the most efficient way for playing solo content. I think balancing the holy trinity requires a rethink of how quests are designed, alongside your redistributing player attributes. This might also help even out the number of healer/tanks vs DPS players.
The holy trinity is the response to the three interactions between fighters in a battlefield: Enemy>Player: Tank Player>Enemy: DPS Player>Player: Healer
@@Fosius It is possible to have classes that interact with the environment to make the battlefield more favourable to your team. That'd be a fourth gameplay interaction not often presen tin MMO's, mostly because its a very strong source of griefing.
Especially given that different classes give you different stat buffs when in a party and you can also meld materia to have a maximum output in the overall meta. Hence why there is a raiding optimal for a main tank, off tank, 2 different melee, 2 different ranged (ranged melee or caster) and 2 different healer types.
ff14 is too strict imo. I want hybrids and more diverse tactics. ff14 has no class customization to speak of. It doesn't even let you attempt to complete a dungeon with less people or any other class setup besides the one they give you.
@@Elrog3 While true within individual classes, I believe that the customization instead lies in your ability to just have every class on one character. Instead of having a couple classes with a bunch of builds, they make every class do that class's particular thing really well.
@@Elrog3 you can run unsynced dungeons on minimum iLvl with any comb. But yes it's not out of the box supported through the duty finder for a good reason tho because duty finder is a tool to find a party with best success chances and no frustration for rather easy content. Tho you can lfg with the party finder and do whatever you want right.
Not really they just made casual content in FF14 so easy that anyone can do it no matter how terrible they are so it doesn't matter how low the damage on tanks and healers are, or how low defense the dps have. Open world mobs barely do anything unless they're a fate boss or A/S rank hunt mob.
You've set the bar, and it's wonderful. If we ever get a game with these parameters, and I mean to a T, I would rip it off the theoretical shelves as fast as I could in order to get it. Like, I would get this thing as soon as it was out, and then i would play it every damn day. And then I would spend a ludicrous amount of time in order to solo level a single character with the ability to completely trounce the perfect trinity.
I played a game called Orbus VR and played the warrior tank. It had a cool system where you could take a big shield which maximized your defense at the cost of halving your attack, but you could take a small shield which had lower defense without lower your attack. Damage was still too low to make solo tank very viable, but it was a good idea and I like that it gave more choice!
This is a key point, there are traits like "survivability" that arent just numbers. This factor becomes very different when dealing with mobs vs PVE vs PVP because its not just a flat number. The idea of increasing numbers to minimum viable wont do anything for PVP or PVE, only questing which doesnt really matter anyways because its super easy
The frost mage isn't a glass cannon build, thats the whole point about the skill tree. Also, using terrain, tactic and chaining abilities is probably what Josh meant with the "solo-thrive" part of his system.
@@zidahya I mean in the holy trinity he is a glass cannon. But he is a CC machine. Which makes him really fun in solo play. In higher end PVE non hard CC (slows, short snares) aren't to important that's why he is basically a glass canon when you talk about it.
@@geameliai4500 that's true of literally every MMO with a leveling system out there. FFXIV is arguably one of the few semi-exceptions to this rule as at least the story matters (to those into story) before the level cap.
Coming from an HC EQ2 raiding guild, I think that what they achieved was kinda awesome. Every classes had their uses, and every player had to dps. If you’re a healer that doesn’t dps, well you’re simply slacking of. A tank that doesn’t dps will never hold it’s aggro, and when your healees know their job and your dps are a bunch of savage competing for max epeen, maxing def doesn’t matter. Going back playing with casual was the most painful thing I’ve ever done tought... But everyone could have their fun which is the most important.
(I wrote this before hearing the specifics of what would be discussed so this is off topic) When I tried to balance my multiplayer PvP game, I actually made it so that hard defenses and mitigation were more susceptible to status effects and DoT type attacks (because they were less likely to avoid damage altogether) and where mobility and damage avoidance was most susceptible to direct damage and hits (trying to avoid it left you open to more of the damage. And yes, there was a middle ground between these extremes and other options available). Over all I think it worked, but I do know at least a few that had issue with "having to build a certain way" in order to overcome tanky characters. Mind you, there were other forms of attack that would work that aren't mentioned here but this was the topic brought up directly. Balance is... Subjective primarily because experiences within balance are what are used to judge balance.
I'd like the idea of classes interacting with each other more, creating specific synergies between certain roles and/or specs. Without the need to create crazy (and countless) combo-abilities, a game could be designed with abilities interacting with each other, to a point. For instance, two targeted AOEs creating a deadly combination (a mage fire AOE spell enhancing a hunter's arrows into a volley fire) or two healing spells augmenting their effects. This could be a step forward from the typical combination of class buffs, maybe?
Wow that sounds so sick! It reminds me of a game called spellbreak where you can combine certain elements to use your abilities offensively or defensively. It's also a visual representation so people will notice it more and be more serious about having good synergies. Like a pyromancer makes your arrow barrage deal flame damage. Great Idea!
@@doomhardt Yeah. It has some awesome mechanics. You can't change your class, but you can change pretty much everything in it. You should try seeing some vids about it, it's worth
I know that it's been a couple of months for you, but reading this comment I was reminded about a saying on MMO players and optimization: "If allowed, players will optimize the 'fun' out of a game."
Brilliant idea ! I'm surprised no other big game company has thought of this. From you, not surprised at all being an exceptional expert on MMO's ! You need to make a licensing deal with them on this. 💲💲💲💲
The Survive-Thrive has been done before in an MMO.. The Mist of Pandaria expansion for World of Warcraft where by that expansion everyone and the kitchen sink had an answer for everything.. , everyone had healing spells, utility spells, and were able to solo content without the need for any help, etc.. Then on top of this, Every class and specialization overall had a utility spells and buff spells that they were able to use on themselves or share with others to enhance others either actively or passive. It was super fun, everyone loved the gameplay and that feeling of where deaths felt fair, and how you could solo play with virtually any class/spec and deal damage and kill mobs in a good pace (even as a healer) or self heal and survive decent sized mob pulls (even as traditional "glass cannon" specs), but at the same time, players hated it, they hated how outside of dungeons/raids every class had an answer to virtually every situation, and the lines between the specs were blurred, and hated how everything was was soloable as opposed to being pushed to groups, and how traditional "buff classes/specs" lost their uniqueness and were equalized with everyone else.
One of the reason I love (and still love thanks to the private servers) City of Heroes was that it effectively broke the holy Trinity in interesting ways...which is applicable for a Superhero MMO if I'm honest. The closest thing to a 'healer' was the Empath/Pain domination Defender/Controller/Corruptor/Dominator but those Archetypes aren't meant to be 'healers'. Instead the game focuses heavily on buffing/debuffing and crowd control to the point where 'healing' defenders were basically a meme. With the right build you CAN solo a lot of endgame content, in fact it's a subset of the speed running community in the game, building a character who can solo the toughest content. Yes it takes a lot of ingame moolah to build out a character like that but farming for Inf (the games ingame currency) is actually pretty easy (so much so that when the game was live chinese bot farmers actually failed because everyone laughed them off the server because what they were charging for inf could be made in an hour or two of dedicated farming or just by playing the Auction House...which had guides on the forums on how to make easy profit...). It was also the thing where, with the right powerset choices, what starts out as a heavily team based AT can become a monster solo AT. Illusion/Rad Controllers can become single target DPS monsters when you combine invincible pets (which baseline have a VERY long cooldown but with the right gear and build (called Enhancements) you can get it down so it becomes perma) or Fire/Kinetics controllers who can AoE mobs down. I loved City of Heroes over DCUO BECAUSE it let you feel like a superhero at higher levels and not just a sidekick to Batman who is always better than you one on one and requires like 20 players to take down...
City of Heroes was vastly ahead of it's time and had numerous absolutely brilliant game design aspects. It's a shame NCsoft is such a garbage publisher.
Gw2 kind of let any class feel any role, and to be honest, its the best system in my opinion. You need to focus on what you want to do (dps, tank, heal, support) but any class can be any role. Gw2 all class start with same stat, and let you focus on any stat you want, so the class is more a flavor than anything else, wich to be honest is brillant. What if you love big armor and light stuff, than you take a paladin, but you also love to play dps, but in youre game the paladin is the tank. Class having specific role, remove the player choice.
I wouldnt say guild wars 2 let any class be any role. ESO does a much better job of that. Guild wars 2 had everything be DPS, and in raids made it to where there could kind of be a tank and druid scourge guardian and kind of ele could heal. Most classes only have self healing. But I also agree that the system they have going is one of my favorites, I just wish there was more of a trinity built into everything since GW2 doesnt actually have any aggro system outside of raids.
@@Shadoekite1 Gw2 is my base example, true its not perfect, not at all in fact. But not let forget that elite spec and class are not the same tho, example scrapper, is more support/tank and holosmith is a pure dps, but both are engineer class. I dont want any build doing eanything, but I love the fact that classes have not pre determine role (in the best univers XD) And for ESO I did play it a bit but Im nowhere near the end game so I cant tell.
@@yvesgingras1475 I forgot about scrapper healer. But my point was that each class doesnt have every role. Like warrior cant be healer, theif cant be healer. But i do really like gw2 class setup where they do have multiple roles. But it is similar to WoW where Warriors can tank and dps Priests can heal and dps ect.
@@soulsfood5691 If they can do all role all the time, thats bad. But when each class can do all the role, when they build/focus on the role thats pretty fun.
Also one thing to note is that not every way to "buff" allies has to just be a stat bonus. The tank might get lots of crowd control and creep pulling abilities that they can't take full advantage of on their own, the healer can get debuffs for enemies and stat buffs for themselves/team, and the dps can get bonus damage against enemies with certain status affects that are difficult for them to apply but easy for other classes. This let's them all have active ways to synergize and makes class differentiation easier so you can have more than one tank, dps, and healer class and still make each one distinct without overshadowing each other.
Another way to enhance the perception of balance is listing classes as beginner, veteran, and hardcore classes. This will allow developers to experiment with less balanced classes while still providing beginners with viable classes for solo content
I feel like more games should do this. SOME do, but not a lot. I think it's because Devs want to talk about "balance", and if a class is "harder", then players expect it to do more damage/healing/tanking/utility/etc because they want to be "rewarded" for that extra effort. But the problem with this is, if it's easy enough to achieve, then that class becomes BIS for the raid team and everyone is forced to use it. But if it's too hard, then the easy class becomes BIS instead, since no one can achieve the good results from the harder class. Single player games tend to do this, and the rare MMO like Lord of the Rings Online has a difficulty rating for different classes, but for the most part it's more just that it is a thing, but you have to play a game to find out, such as White Mage being easier to play than Scholar in FFXIV or Mage specs in WoW generally being easier to play than Warlock.
@@SubduedRadical agreed but even wow has massive difficulty disparities between classes, they just don't acknowledge it in-game. A beastmaster hunter is far easier than a shadow priest for example and a beastmaster is often top DPS in raids and dungeons.
guild wars 2 (and 1 even though i did not played it) gets over downsides of trinity quite well , a ranger can be a really strong dps in open world (even with gear focused around healing) but can be a healer too in raids and dungeons
Brilliant idea, should definitely work in PvE situations. In PvP I'm not a hundred percent sure, but open world PvP will often end up in a clusterf...est anyways, and instanced PvP can be tweaked regarding, so yeah. Would be really interesting to see this down the line in more and more games.
At what I consider the apex of WoW (Cata through Pandaria) I remember my guilds doing quite varied party combos, a third of our tanks were Druids, we even had a Warlock who proved they could tank all the 5-person endgame. Complementary buffs were a big chunk of what made it work.
I still hate this system. Sure, you have tanky, DPSy and healy oriented classes, but instead of a trinity it should be more of a hexagon, if not a decagon. Instead of "healer" replace it with "support" because there's many more ways to support your teammates than just refilling their green bars. I miss the "debuffer" playstyle of a support class, it's my favorite way to play yet no current MMO offers such playstyle. A class/power sets which focus on controlling the enemies in combat and reducing their attributes to make them hit the tanky melee types less and take more damage from the damage dealers, even reduce their ability to heal or recover.
I'm devouring your old videos, and I love this idea, but this also brought back very fond memories of my WoW Enhancement shaman, back when the point was literally to *enhance* your party members. Super capable solo, and I was an engineer so I had lots of extra toys to play with (it was incredible how many raids Rocket Boots came in handy). Oh, and the brief, shining few weeks I got to have a dual -wielding Frost Death Knight tank 😊 good memories.
As someone who mains a Healer class (for better or worst). I'm curious to see this topic explored because it's such a shame that roles like Tank and Healer are vital to raids... But very few actually want to do it. I'm in charge of you staying alive or dying, if I'm not on top of it, I failed the team. It's a heavy weight at times but least I know that if everyone does their roles well, we all survive.
One of the main issues a lot of games run into with tanks and healers is the fact that, unlike DPS dev's rarely give them any meaningful form of gameplay. Using tera for example: Healers press their gameplayless healing ability(Effective tab target instant heal/spawning instant healing orbs) once and stop because of healer aggro meaning they spend most of the fight idle/avoiding attacks because of healer aggro. Then compare that to the DPS's who have situational DPS abilities and rotations in addition to their normal gameplay/ class specific DPS mini games.
@@Warcrafter4 True. Tanks are at the best when they are like Football linemen and forced to change how the pocket is formed. This leads to the problem decent team content makes terrible solo content and the other way around.
It's funny to me that you've essentially just completely described how FFXIV works. The developers even commented on wanting to make sure everything in the overworld is largely soloable.
As a game designer who has had to rebalance and overhaul the combat system for an MMO there are some good ideas here for sure. Quite possibly the trickiest aspect of designing for an MMO however is the breadth of player skill and playstyles. It's very, very difficult to build a system that allows all players to engage in the content they want to while also allowing them to feel challenged and/or progress. It's great to see things like this being discussed though, looking forward to seeing any other videos you do on the topic. I'm more than happy to give further insight if it's something you'd be interested in :)
I was seriously doubting this video coming to it (and I'm a game developer) but this is fantastic. Basically give players a bonus tier of stats that only applies on groups.
Summon an Army of Minions and heal/buff em to defeat the enemies! (sadly there aren't that many MMOs that have a healer/support summoner classcombination and those who do rarely let you effectively control your minions....
This sounds remarkably similar to concepts I've come up with in the past. Love the idea, and I think an MMO designed in this way could certainly improve on the holy trinity formula. This was a fantastic listen, thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I just find this video now, you nailed it... I love trinity system, played 14yr L2 from C1(main healer). To anybody who know how hard L2 was for solo in beginning... These days the MMORPG games are missing, that hard gained rewards which can't be achieved just by hard working cooperation (and lot of fails), I remember sometimes I was just chatting with friends (guild members) asking how was their day, and just having fun in chat, these days all developer just try to make the game as easiest as possible to play for everybody specialy for players 12+... In old days you need to cooperate and communicate... These days in MMORPG (which is focused specialy on mass multiplayer online) the solo player can clear the game... And even if there are some dungeons raids... What ever team event there is lot of trash talk (mostly from young players) and everybody think they are superman... No cooperation at all... No dignity, courtesy... Nothing... Probably I am to old for this new era of gaming, but I as a veteran player would love to have some really nice MMORPG with balanced trinity system... But this everything is just my personal opinion... I wish you all the best and enjoy the gameplay 😊
IMO the way to break the downsides of the trinity is to give each of the three roles a mechanic that raises their minimal by using their specialty. For example: increase the Glass Mage's survival rate by giving it a mana shield, or give life leach to a rogue, turn healers solo-viable by making their heals damage undead around them, and give tanks a mechanic that allows them to kill enemies by actively mitigating the incoming damage ( like instant free hits upon blocking or overall increased damage output depending on damage taken/mitigated in the last 10s). The big thing is to make sure these mechanics are 1) relatively niche so the healer doesn't turn in a DPSer against everyone all the time, 2)remains linked with their primary function of any given role for obvious reasons. That said, it would also be interesting if said mechanic could be left to the player's choice, like perk trees, which would allow the player to choose whether they their DPSer to have the needed increased survival rate for soloing content through resource consumption(mana shield), dps focus (life leach) or maybe sacrifice the ability to deal crits at all for the ability to blind enemies (though i feel the tank role would be best served with the sacrifice mechanic: remove armor gear pieces for increased attack and damage.)
It really sounds like you are describing Guild Wars 2's balance. While tanks are kind of optional usually, you have healers and DPS that support each other though auras, buffs, and through combo fields.
@@Raught19 I can only really speak for my own experience with it but I think its because the auras and combo fields mechanics feels so different to what I wanted/expected from an mmorpg I couldn't get into it. I loved soloing but in any party type of content I couldn't ever really notice or understand how best to make use of those auras/combos and it didn't really feel like my party did either, we would just dps burn through things. There are other things with GW2 that made me bounce off it but those aren't relevant to the topic. FFXIV is a good example of going into that direction of balance while still sticking to a holy trinity formula. They just need to add the buffing system JSH mentioned and it would be pretty close to that. They have dps that can buff other classes dps but not a lot in terms of a dps buffing a tank and so on.
Tanks are only useful in like .01% of the pve content in GW2. And the only reason is not because of survival stats keeps the tank alive but because the survival stats can control aggro. Without it, it would've been 8 dps + 2 healers or a combination of the sort.
You're quickly becoming one of my favorite youtubers! Such good videos. And I'm a heterosexual man and even I can say you're very handsome, lol And I love the Mug flex :D
P99 EQ got the balance down nearly perfectly. There weren't many good solo classes at the mid-game and absolutely no solo classes for the end-game. There is a lot of utility outside of just healing too. There were classes for debuffs, classes for crowd control, classes for teleporting the team from zone to zone, classes for bringing your team to the heart of the action from the zone entrance, and DoT dealers, as well as the big 3. Even the "useless" classes like paladins and shadowknights, which were objectively worse tanks than warriors had some tools like ripping aggro from adds that they could use to off-tank and clean up an engagement Any class could realistically solo lower zones and mid level zones with some twink gear but the cooperativity of the game at the highest level made it the most memorable mmorpg experience for me...besides runescape
Well, i understand it as the survival threshold being the minimum stats for a class without any debuffs, the max solo being the max stats for a single character and then make it so that a healer would boost the hp regeneration of any tank in their current party by x amount and so on
Utility enhancing poisons and magic buffs, like dmg reduction poison to help tank survive, castable aura on a tank that causes armor level to buff crit chance in an area around them, etc. Tanks could provide target marking for DPS and heals, leaning into the shot calling aspect of tanking. Helping cut through the visual clutter and providing buffs/extra effects to damage done to marked enemies/healing done to marked allies. Healers could provide short duration steroids to capitalize on weakness phases on bosses, or grant elemental damage or resistances to key roles. I think the key is to make sure that the user of whatever enhancement they bring to the table benefits the least from it, and benefits the most from the ones the other 2 bring. Instead of a ranger providing ranged attack damage to the party, something really only themselves and other rangers would use, they could shoot the tank with an electric arrow and cause enemies that hit them to be stunned and interrupted.
Rising the lower stats of all classes is a neat idea, but can make for some op classes. An example of this was the Disciple, a martial arts close combat type of healer, which was tougher and did more damage than the average healer as he was generating resources to heal as he fought. This ment that there was a point when your healer could solo whole dungeons, as he could heal himself while dpsing at the same rate he would heal a tank. The only gain of grouping up was speed.
Thats why I really like lord of the rings online. While there are classic holy trinity classes and added supports, all classes have different skill trees which they can swap between at will out of combat. That means the bard who is supposed to be a pure healer has a damage skill tree and a damage stance which negates their ability to heal others, but enhaces their offensive capabilities and still enables self heal. Same for any class. Tanks can deal damage, supports have a damage tree for solo play but also a highly specialized buff or debuff tree for difficult content. And the damage classes have skill trees which sacrifice some damage but increase survivability. Every class (except Captain before the changes) can thrive on its own. But they can also be fully optimized for group play
when you dont do the trinity, you get guild wars 2..... Which is a mess. If yall disagree with me, then you obviously dont do high end fractals/raiding in gw2. It is indeed a mess, there is ONE well made class in the game, guardian. They rarely even attempt at balancing either. We joke and call it circle wars because theres just circles all over the floor.
Have you even played gw2? Based on your comment you havent, certainly not in endgame raids, fractals or pvp. If you go beyond the trash lfg groups asking for healbrands to spoonfeed them through difficult content you discover the beauty of the system where all classes have their own things they excel in.
I think if you ever find yourself making/consulting a game that shit better be amazing. In all seriousness, you are 100% correct and I hope dev's are watching your content.
I feel like another way to fix this is by hybridizing elements, which is where I feel a lot of modern design has been going Tanks and healers do more damage, and there are some games where healers heal through their damage-dealing etc. For example, I remember there was a raid healing build in Guild Wars 2 where Guardians healed by generating a pulsing ground aoe through their auto-attacks and then buffed the party with a massive damage-reduction buff by slamming their hammer into their own AoE. All of these things also did steady AoE damage, but not as much as a dedicated DPS class would
I feel this may have been done before. In FFX, for example, Yuna is clearly the party's healer but she can cast offensive spells and summon; Tidus is a dps but he can caste haste. The stats and skills were handled through a skill tree (sphere grid) that connected all the 'classes'.
I am late on this thread, but some of, if not the MOST fun I have had in any MMO was my time tanking during Mists of Pandaria in WoW. Not only did tanks get enough stats to rival the bosses HP wise, but mechanics in the game required you to use movement or you just died...and warriors had some of the most fun movement skills out there. I miss those days a lot.
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Josh just wants every MMO endgame to need the power of friendship and so do I
Naruto for the win
@@gingercore69 I just think of Meat Canyons video of Naruto every time
someone mentions it.
Lets face it. The power of friendship only works with friends. Not with randoms
What about the whole rest of the game given that the end game is just a fraction of it....
this is what I'm experiencing at the moment in wow wotlk (warmane), so fun... when you HAVE TO team up
This man can break down the pros and cons of taking a dump on the dinner table at family Christmas dinner and i’m pretty sure i’d watch it
Pros
- relieves you of the need to defecate
Cons
- food tastes bad
- everyone thinks you are a psychopathc
- you don't get invited to parties anymore
@@gggg-hq4td the last one is a pro i think
@@gggg-hq4td not getting invited could be a pro
Careful, you may have just given him ideas for next year's April Fools video
lmao
Time to get the Joshstrifehayes wiki going. "Balancing the MMO - The Holy Trinity" Release date: May 19, 2021 Mug: Bulbasaur
You're quickly becoming one of my favorite youtubers. You upload like a madman, you always have valid points, you have a kick ass mug collection and youre a handsome dude!
I subscribed because of his look and voice... and his content.
I'm just here for the mugs.
Josh, your channel is fantastic. As an old school MMO player, I appreciate your takes. Grats on 100k!
Thanks man, keep cooking awesome stuff!
@@JoshStrifeHayes will do! Any favorite MMO dishes I should take a crack at?
(Don't say sardomin brew, don't say sardomin brew, don't say saradomin brew)....
I think one possible way of making solo play more viable for healers and tanks is something similar to the Companion system from SWTOR, where you had an NPC ally at all times when playing alone. While not perfect, and perhaps requiring some more micromanagement than just playing alone, I think it does help, and provides a bit of practice and strategy.
Also, Everquest 2 has this. It is a nice way to keep solo interesting without lobotomizing it.
FF14 has this as well. You get a chocobo companion in game. You level it by training and feeding and it can be a tank, dps or healer. Only usable in open world, super helpful as a bro who always plays healers.
@@smithz800 SWTOR's companions are similar, with "Gifts" being used to level up their Influence (providing bonuses to crafting missions and combat), but they used to also be able to take gear. I personally prefer a hybrid system because I like to gear up my allies (and because it would extend my playtime before i'm "done" lol)
Elder scrolls is about to add this. Looking forward to duo 4 man content with a friend.
Guild Wars 1 had this system, except you could have multiple NPC allies fill in for other players, and it worked quite well.
That said, sometimes companions also make players feel bad. If you look at Josh's review of Astellia, one of the main complaints was that having a companion made him feel unimportant.
Thats why i like guild wars 2 and possiblity to change your attributes and equipment to what you wanna play in any class, be it tank, dps or support if grouped, or just make solo open world build with survivability and bit lower dps
same!
Yep, i was going to say the same. GW2 does what Josh suggested, although not exactly the same it's pretty similar. Every class is casual solo playable, only when players get into high-endgame they need to start maximizing their class potential and organizing groups with healers and certain buffs from certain classes.
Some classes are able to change into healers as needed, and others simply change a small part of their build to bring specific buffs or types of damage depending on the group and the encounter.
Yes but GW2 is a game made to make everyone feel like a winner, a very modern "participation trophy for everyone " concept, which is something that i really hate, i need danger and difficulty or i loose interest. If everyone can do something regardless of skill, then it's all an illusion, you are not achieving anything. That's my problem with guild wars 2, and the leveled creatures.
You should be able to play the game alone, but that doesn't mean everyone should ve able to achieve victory, that is why the Souls series is so beloved.
@@Phantom_Zer0 are you taking about open world or PVP and PVE in the real endgame? :o
@@DanieliusGoriunovas im pretty sure he/she never really played wvw or pvp if gw2's system made them feel like a winner lol
This is what I love about ESO. Your class doesn't really determine your role on the team. You can hybridize for solo play, go all out into one of the holy trinity, whatever you want really. Hell, you can mix and match a combination of light, medium and heavy armor to suit your needs
You can, but try going into hi end group content as a hybrid and you start getting flak.
@@anvos658 This is only true for absolute endgame content. Most dungeons, even in vet mode, can be done with suboptimal classes. It is only when you consider trials or DLC vet dungeons that it starts being a big issue.
I'd say ESO paid for that with a lack of class identity.
All classes do more or less the same kind of things. All healers buff, all DD use dots and a spammable, all tanks use one of the two single target taunts and have a spell that gives the major resistance buff.
You don't have a full DOT warlock that can teleport another player by channeling a portal with 2 friends.
You don't have a goblin shaman who empower the next damage spell after healing a lot, and vice versa.
You don't have a stealthy class that can use postern gates to sneak into an enemy fortress in pvp.
You don't have a shaman that can walk on water and summon totems.
You don't have a cultist who can heal his team by dealing damage in mele range.
You don't have a class with auras, or stances, or combo points, or special weapons, or dedicated craft, or special quests...
In ESO most class identity are limited to cosmetic stuff :
You can be a fire breathing knight, aplying a debuff and a dot !
You can be a warden with an eagle.. what does it do ? it spawn, charge, apply a dot/debuff, and vanish until you need the dot refreshed.
One use the magic of fire, the other the magic of bird =p but they more or less do the same thing.
I mean, it's a great game. I truely like and played it a lot. ^^
But this cool all class do everything thing came at a great cost IMO. =)
@@MacPlaysRed I guess it depends what you consider true vet content. For me, it’s every dungeon Dragon Bones and onward. Granted I last played a year ago, but you still need a dedicated tank and DPS for vFL and vSCP. Healers become more important with each DLC after that(unless they finally nerfed vigor like they needed to, in which case they’re a lot more valuable.)
Stuff like vLoM and the kitty vampire dungeon HM I’ll want a proper team though. vCT HM too.
@@GribsGribouille I like how it's done in FF14 a single character that can be either a tank, healer, or damge dealer. They all are different as well.
I'm assuming the reason you have eso playing in the background is becasue eso already does this and does it well, i've recently had two friends who until recently had only been playing the older fashioned mmorpg's, and they have been amazed at the class flexibility and the ability for specific builds such as healer and tanks to be able to function solo in story content then step into a dungeon and still fill their role perfectly with a group, it's been a really eye opening experince for me being a from launch player of the game and makes me appreciate just how good eso really is.
proud of you man, think I subbed at 3-5k and now you're about to hit 100k. hard work pays off for sure
Here for the mug flex. Wasn’t disappointed 💚
Underrated comment
Good video. Been really enjoying your stuff. If this is going to be a whole series, I'd like to see you address the "Fun" balance.
I know a lot of people don't like the trinity because wait times for DPS always suck. So they want to get rid of it when what needs to happen is to make the non DPS choices more "fun". Fun being in quotes cause I know people have different opinions on what is fun.
100% agree. The issue is that tanking and healing are less rewarding while also having a much steeper learning curve. In WoW, healing requires an almost entirely different UI than the one you've been using while leveling, and the best ones are only attainable from third-party sites rather than in-game, and the game itself has absolutely no tutorials on their use. RUclips and the community bridge that gap somewhat but I can't think how many people realize what endgame healing entails and just give up on the role entirely.
Similarly, Tanking involves not just the skills of doing decent damage and rotating your cooldowns to survive damage spikes , but also skills like routing and pathing through the dungeon, boss and trash knowledge, and even the capabilities (cc and utility) of all your teammates so you can lead correctly.
When the game doesn't do enough to teach the players these skills, you end up with toxicity from the players who expect tanks and healers to already know them, and that leads to long wait times for dps as newer players wanting to try these roles are reluctant to sign up just to get flamed.
@@PsyrenXY I like healing and tanking in FF14. Just not in hard content.
Things that hurt Tank "fun"
Damage Dealer are doing so much DPS that you can not hold agro by focussing on your strenght (def) but have to infest into dps or the damage dealers have to make breaks into their rotations just so you can generate enough agro - Agro generation based on "threat level"
As long as you have the "I am the target" skill you are the target (especially toggle buffs) and nothing else to focus on. Your action is rush in hit everything ONCE and wait gameplay over. Or just press 1button over and over again.
Outragously inept teammembers gaming system. (Rappelz, had agro skills that could only agro a set number of mobs.) Try to generate enough agro on 10 mobs if the skill only agros 5 mobs. People die and you get the blame for something you could not possibly change. Next time I have to do better? not possible stop pulling more than you kill easily.
PVP: Half of th skills being useless. Healing item drain pvp as the rogue can full heal easily but your potion "bleed out"
Soloplay: Not being able to kill mobs in a reasonable amount of time (what Josh said)
Soloplay: The amount of healing potions or skills you need to get back into action (not wanting to take away from the healer, but the ranger in most games does not have to take care of arrows, but tanks are a money sink for healing)
The tank is a whole discussion on its own, with def vs hp tank pro and cons etc
@@verzeihturncoat27 tank for life.... most fun to play because of all the downs it has! Although as also mentioned you’ll never hear “great job tank” .... and for the healers, if nobody dies “dps op” .. of someone dies “crappy healer” ... DPSs seem to have their own standards and be on the higher league ... meh..
@@starwaveprime7398 There is a reason why the tanks and the healers become so often good friends...
I think RIFT (R.I.P.) really had a great setup for group composition. Being able to hybrid most any class into something that feels comfortable for solo. Then being able to fill one of 4 roles: tank, healer, dps, and support. Support being there to shore up any weaknesses, debuff enemies, buff allies, and help the other roles perform better.
I would prefer if we had Support as a Fourth Role, and classes were a combination of two, like a Tank+Healer, DPS+Support, Healer+DPS and so on. I think it would open up for some interesting teamwork options
he actually suggests, that support part is spread across tanks, healers, and dps
I personally enjoy ESO in that sense though I can only speak of my experience in 2 of the 6 classes (Dragonknight and Warden). Playing solo is fairly achieveable by customising myself into a balance of all roles and in group I can change my setup to focus into a single role. Though the aspect of all roles buffing each other is not entirely there as it typically falls onto the tanks and healers to do that with their abilities and set bonuses while DPS focus entirely on their damage output and avoiding deadly mechanics. I still really enjoy my time as a tank (and also my queue times) and my experience has allowed me to tutor many groups and hold my own to turn around many bad situations with otherwise less experienced players.
Im a simple man , i see a new Josh video so i watch it
'I am Josh Dry Haze' -I swear to god, that is what I hear everytime you intro. Just FYI.
Could be "Josh's Tri Fhayes"
because:
Fhayes 1: creating a YT channel
Fhayes 2: ?
Fhayes 3: profit!
Thanks now I can’t unhear it lmao
Now I only hear: I‘m Josh Dry Face, lmao
@@Sherolox josh trapez for me
Sounds kind of like Josh Dry Face to me.
Office Boss: Josh, you need to get better at making bar charts
Josh: *Video making intensifies*
What a cute Bulbasaur mug
Josh your videos are awesome resources. Such deep analysis of mmo systems uploaded regularly is hard to find. I really hope game developers are watching your channel
Your suggestion was pretty much the methodology of FFXIV's class/job balance. Every role can meaningfully progress through the MSQ and most open world content solo but only really show their full potential in Full-Party (8 character) content.
A little unrelated but one thing I really loved about ffxiv's class balance and design was how their were no skill trees yet you could play all classes on one character.
Yep. Tanks have party buffs that reduce incoming raid wide damage. Healers have partywide shields/regens. DPS jobs (can) have team buffs that increase one or more damage metrics.
@@JaxParowFF There is also a general 1% hp/damage/healing buff for having at least 1 member of your party be each role (tank/healer) and subroll (melee/ranged/caster).
The problem that I have with 14's balance is that for harder content, everyone's a dps with added responsibility thrown on for tanks and healers.
@@leadpaintchips9461 That is more the result of flaws in FFXIV's Fight Design. High end fights have such tight enrages and such low healing, add management and survival requirements that doing damage becomes tanks and healers primary duties. The current tanks and healers of FFXIV could handle a lot more tank and healer duties but fights are more designed for dps.
I still remember the end dungeon party (the equivalent of raids) on Neverwinter when I played (around the cash dupe where everyone got a stupid cape as apologies).
The set up was two priest as tanks and healers (they had an aoe damage reduction buff that stacked) walking in circles around the bosses to avoid the line attacks.
Two control mages that would cc and aoe the adds that EVERY BOSS HAD. Agro them and kite them untill the boss died. Or group them and throw them off a cliff.
And me. A rogue that had to solo all the bosses while taking maximum 3 hits to die (had to go full damage). I still remember being drenched in sweat while soloing the final skeletal? Lich dragon boss. Even droped my BiS as a reward.
However, the tank class and the warrior class had NOTHING exept pvp, since the dungeons had so many adds and the damage they did was so high there was no fucking way to survive and kill the boss. At best the rest of the team would try to survive while I solo'ed the boss.
So yeah. My friend group and I stoped playing, because I was the only one having fun.
Class balance. Or at the very least, making all classes viable in a team has always been the most important thing for me in a mmo.
I love game design discussion. I would watch more of this type of content.
Give this man's enough money and man power and he could make a fire MMO
I know this is kind of a joke but I can see this guy working closely with developers of a new mmo who’s main purpose is to change/refine new/older mmo systems.
This is excellent! You’ve addressed the dynamic landscape of players and the different play styles that each one has. Very good!
In terms of the holy trinity, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on where crowd control and de-buffing/buffing fits. I know from my own experiences that there are many players that want to support, but don’t like straight up healing, and those who like healing, but don’t enjoy the extra strings attached to a support play style.
True although personally playing an unusual build that really gives the enemy a hard time is hilarious to do, because it just drains them of resources so fast and breaks up their rotation. Most people can't handle it.
Imo most classes should be able to have CC. Buffing and debuffing could also make sense on most classes so why not make everyone able to spec into it if they want. Make a weak version base line and let them specc into it. Dunno.
For the trifecta synergy, it could be achieving the same goals through indirect means - the dps deals raw damage, but the tank and/or the healer deals crap damage, but debuffs enemy defenses - which makes the damage dealer happy.
hearing you say "Asheron's Call" gave me goosebumps. miss that game so much.
Balance is weakness
- Zed
Balance keeps our weapons wasted
- Zed
I agree with this. I do think retail wow has this already. I can easily solo casual content as tanks and healers. Sometimes it can go a bit slower but it's not too bad. I usually don't feel the need to swap to DPS while questing as a healer main.
This is brilliant! I'd love to see an mmorpg implement a system like this!
I'd recommend Final Fantasy 14, then. They've got a pretty similar system in place!
I really want more videos like this where you deconstruct MMO stereotypes and you comment about them. It's Innovative and refreshing.
I have the feeling that FFXIV does a lot of these things really good.
I am a main tank and there is no damage problem whatsoever. The same goes for a friend who is a main healer.
The main issue with XIV balance isn't the jobs themselves, but encounter design. Damage comes in too slowly and in too small amounts outside of Ultimate raids and a select few Savage raids, so healers barely have to heal whatsoever
@@eryes1218 this! While I absolutely love how balanced FFXIV's combat system is, it kind of bothers me that with each new patch, most content from previous patches get trivialized.
I can imagine how anti climactic it would feel to new players when the ultimate boss fight that the game was building up to ends without a single mechanic popping up.
@@joey6417 To be fair, the level sync, silence echo and min ilvl exist which allows you to 'mostly' experience the content as intended. Obviously, stuff like Coils is VERY different from when that was current, but still, you can still experience its challenge and mechanics as intended. The issue at that point is getting a group of people willing to do it too.
@@eryes1218 From what they've said and shown (especially with the healer rework), it sounds like for Endwalker there's likely to be a lot more emphasis on heals, and also on tanks using their defensive cooldowns properly. So I wouldnt be surprised if we see a change in encounter design to an extent.
I quite like this approach. I could imagine having a variety of classes with different "morale boost" values, possibly even a class that specializes in further boosting them or interfering with enemy boosts. Perhaps distance has some bearing on this system; I can imagine a lot of interesting scenarios making use of that.
I feel this works especially from wha ti've seen in ff14. When I'm soloing as a heaerl, it's a bit long but i never really feel threatened, same with tank a s most have some innate sustain and then dps i find the hardest, mostly blackmage due to their lower defences. mana ward being their main defence where as redmage is ridiclous solo sustain.
My first job was BLM and I agree. Things while leveling definitely felt though sometime but still never unbeatable. But it would be really nice to have even a temporary "leveling buff" to defenses for BLM and other DPS.
I feel like that's what your Chocobo companion is for. If you're playing a DPS, you can give it tanking and/or healing skills as it levels up. If you're playing a healer or tank, you can give it DPS skills to help kill things faster.
@@dianwei32 suppose that's true, never knew about tha,t not really explored it., though i do use my choco!
6:15, yes. Its a very good setup. One of the funniest moments it came up for me wasn't even an RPG. It was Huniepop 2.
Playing on hardmode with all the traumas makes different characters able or forced to specalize in certain styles of gifts. Like the girl who at random adds a negative token to the board when she does a match. This combos very well with a item that turns negative tokens into bonus movements and turns her into a efficient "Healer".
My answer is simple, because it was/is already done to perfection: Guild Wars 1.
6 classes. 1 primary attribute, at least 3 secondary. Pick 2 classes for each character (not mandatory). Only get primary attribute of your character's class (secondary can be switched at will).
Now, each of the three secondary attributes is a specific playstyle. In general, the primary attribute was for survival, one attribute for direct damage, one for utiliy/disruption and one for utility/debuff.
For example the warrior; Best damage -> Axe. Most disruption -> hammer. Most debuff effects -> Sword.
With the ability to pick a secondary class and ALL the skills of that class, you can mix and match as you like. This resulted in things like the "bunnythumper", a ranger with warrior secondary. Using hammer and hammer skills, while using a pet. When the pet dies (which counts as an ally) a warrior shout can be used to gain additional buffs.
You had warrior elementalist, running enchantments to deal increase damage on each attack. You had warrior elementalist using an ability that caused knockdown, but as an axe user.
You had monks that were the best lategame farmers.
You had mesmers instantly casting the strongest elementalist spells.
You had necromancer mesmer that did nothing but drain mana and DoT.
The options were endless. The variety of builds people came up with to "beat the meta" was staggering. And they achieved all this without interfering with the PVE part of the game (until the last expansion, nightfall, which had completely broken skills and they ended up having to make PVP skills. But honestly the expansion also killed the game to start).
So yeah, do what guild wars did. Oh and you can change attributes/secondary class/skills completely anytime you are in town, for free.
OH! and PVP characters; everything you unlocked in PVE can be used, rest unlocked through play. You could be a highlevel PVPer without ever touching the PVE.
Having every class fill every role but in a way unique to that class is also a good option.
This is what GW2 does
@@merloin5141 and ESO
I’m in the camp that leveling solo needs to be mostly viable. I don’t mind the occasional mandatory group content for leveling if there’s systems in place to make sure you find a group (like FFXIV’s level synced Duty Finder plus roulettes), but solo friendly leveling means my friends and I can level separately and on our own pace and limited play time isn’t wasted looking for groups. I’m fine with either having each class able to solo leveling content or giving players NPC party members for said content (like Trusts in FFXI).
trusts were added in shadowbringers and will continue in the next expansion, you can also use your grand company squadron for below level 50 dungeons
In what game, it isn’t viable?
I see zero problem, leveling in WoW Classic, with any class.
Indeed XIV is finely polished, to the point small differences in job performance stand out, all can solo field content....except for the megaboss FATEs/NMs.
To fill out the roles, chicken-bird-aoe-sponge.
Though what bioware used to do with teamates was nice. SWtOR with companion. The weakness there was the companions shouldve been slightly weaker and instead each player shouldve been able to have upto 3. And even more importantly the companions should be able to follow the player on a mount to still provide commentary whilst traveling.
I think the MINIMUM survive is the most important thing here. Games are hard to always play with multiple people and sometimes you want to just no strings attatched explore the map or do a small quest at your own pace
A lot of games give each of the three core classes additional class specific traits to make solo play for all of them possible. Damage dealers get high mobility, enabling them to avoid attacks while dealing massive damage. Tanks use slow but powerful attacks, facetanking most of the incomming damage while still being able to do some damage themselves. And healers can be able to summon minions which do the fighting and tanking for them and which they can command and keep alive. Of course all three classes still benefit greatly from working together.
As far as I've seen, FFXIV seems to hit damn near all the wickets to your balancing ideas.
Same as ESO, both games are great in every way, the only problem with FF XIV is on pvp, where tanks are almost immortal if you don't focus an entire group of dps to kill just one of them, while healer is also really hard to kill but with a decent burst you can still kill them, in ESO most of the roles can switch with a few changes and be decent at dmg or solo gameplay and useful both in pvp and pve, of course if you make a character with one main content in mind, like only pvp or only pve, or only solo content it will be crazy good in that, but awful in the rest of the content. Anyway FF XIV for me is still the superior mmorpg compared with any other mmo that i played. Square Enix is insane, they never disappoint with the new content and every class feels unique and yet really balanced in team content. Of course you have classes with more dps than others but most of the times more dps=less utility skills, wich means in a savage content you will end needing some of the non top dps to balance the group and rise the dps.
@@CrisHermetica ffxiv doesnt really have pvp. you could argue it exists but honestly? it's just a formality
@@MallowJam PvP exists in a literal sense with a sizeable community. But getting into it via duty finder is not the move. Gotta find pvp discords.
@@rhythmauthority5314 what do you consider to be a sizeable community? data center might matter here. Primal's PVP community basically doesn't exist. anyone with a rank doesnt even play ranked anymore cause they simply just keep it, no play required
As someone who's been playing since ARR beta, PvP side of the game was always almost nonexistent. I watched the PvP go through some... Strange changes. In the beginning, PvP was similar to what I experienced in WoW (Scholar/AST were kings, certain classes were awful), but I saw a lot of interest in it. Then they completely chucked that system out the door and revamped it into something much more bland... PvP is barely noticible nowadays.
The holy trinity is what we got when wow simplified the genre... in EQ, and DAOC, there where other essential tasks, like crowd control, a puller, and a buffer/support.
Mana ment with enchanter and a fop can do all content.
Sorry for wall of text. Here's a short version of the content:
- Have a whole party under your control instead of a single character (like in Dragon age: Inquisition)
----> Solving the balance problems, by always having a full party around
----> Not controlled characters will be AI controlled (like in dragon age)
----> have the ability to quickly swap between your toons in combat (like in dragon age)
- Turn the main stream open world building upside down
----> Open world is the hub (instead of the main place for most questings)
----> Most of the questing, fighting and storytelling shifted to instanced areas
----> Consistent (open) world (changing) progression through Event chains
----> System for new players to experience these events as an instanced encounter with huge player limits
- Instanced areas can be played coop by sharing the player slots with each others parties (you get to choose which of your characters you bring into the dungeon until all slots are filled)
--------------------
I pondered about this issue too. The problem I saw, was playing a healer is not fun for the solo content, because it is slow and boring. Even if I could build my healer into something self sufficient, I would have the wrong gear and build for any team oriented content / whenever I actually want to team up with others. Then I remembered in which game I liked playing a healer the most: Guild Wars 1. What does this game have, no other MMORPG has? NPC followers. Now before you crucifix and burn me alive, at least hear me out...
Imagine instead of creating just one toon, you'd create your whole party! Imagine you create your team of 4 individual characters, have a tank, a healer, a dps and a "wild card" (bard? utility- non healing support or an extra dps?). And when you venture out you always travel with, level and enhance your whole party instead of a single character. This means all the content can be balanced around a well rounded team comb and doesn't have to leave room for all different classes to be able to solo things. And if you team up with other players you share the slots. (example: If you want to do a 4 men dungeon with just one friend both of you get to choose 2 of their toons to bring with)
In combat I imagine you got a button to switch between the characters (maybe in gamepad this may be the cross could be used and on PC the F1 to F4 buttons). You now could run around with your tank and aggro the mobs / pull them, then in fight you can swap to your favourite role and play as you wish. High skilled players may swap frequently between characters to achieve better micro. Or in dangerous areas you may scout ahead with your stealthy thief. You now always have a full party with all the gadgets at hand and it's up to you to use them to their full potential.
The main issue I still stumble upon is the open world aspect of MMORPGs. Usually they are forgettable boring at best and annoying & immersion breaking at worst. With this I mean the "farm X mobs" and then there's like 50 other players standing on that very spot and killing the same mobs and you literally have to wait and hope to get the kills. Or the story driven "OMG, the house is burning, please extinguish it" and 5 seconds after you did that it start burning again, because the next person need to extinguish something too, right?
I think together with the system of having a whole party under your control the game itself should shift more towards GW1 instanced areas and hubs, but not as much as GW1 was. I think the big open world should act as a huge hub and then there should be lots of instanced areas within this huge hub. This way you can travel around and meet other players, the world would feel alive. But when you actually get sent off to do something specific, you'd go there and enter an instanced area where other players can't break the immersion. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be any activities in the "hub world". Things where it makes sense to have lots of people do something together or fluff and minigame stuffs. Like event chains leading up to a big world boss fight, jumping puzzles and other minigames.
I oftentimes read people really like the open world aspect where a random person can come across and help you in a dire situation. But in all the years of me playing MMORPGs it's more often (almost always) annoying "kill stealing" or turning an already trivial task into an even easier encounter, kind of situation coupled with sometimes insane mob spawn rates when too many players are around. I'd be happy to sacrifice this minimal chance for a random helper in order to dramatically improve the gaming experience.
If the open world hub would change due to story telling (which is an exciting thing and make you feel like you exist in a changing world where things actually happen), I'd implement this like a season story system coupled with the already mentioned open world events and world boss system. New players would arrive in the time and situation the game is at the moment. To catch up with the story and things that happened, there would be festive seasons for each of those big events granting the players the possibility to relive the events in an instanced area with huge player count. Imagine something like a 2 week festive time from 1. August to 14. August every year, where in game the world is celebrating the fall of the big evil wizards tower and in this time you could go to the shamans hut and eat some shrooms, drink some booze and smoke some tobacco and then fall into a trance and get sent back into the past, together with all the other players, who want to relive that specific event (or experience it for the first time).
Great respect for 13:45. I feel like that's perceived as a forbidden statement but it's something my friend and I have discussed at length for over decade at his point.
Then there’s the broken wow Druid tank... great tank class also competitive in the dps charts and healing charts...
How many times has someone pointed out the fact that he looks like Robb Stark?
im pretty toasty rn, but I was able to conceptualize/visualize a few of these cross-role support buffs mentioned around 11:50
DPS: Rallying Presence - all party members receive X% increase to parry/block chance // Call for Aide: marks target player, increasing all healing that player receives by X% for Y duration
TANK: Imposing Presence - all nearby enemies have X% reduced evasion against attacks made by players not being targeted // Fortuitous Spirit: Healing received from allies returns a % of Mana back to the caster
HEALER: Crucial Presence - all party members receive increased armor based on missing % of max HP // Battle Tactics: marks targeted player, increasing cooldown reduction on defensive abilities for each enemy targeting the marked player
obvs these names and whatever are kinda goofy, but the concept was cool enough that I could imagine what those kinds of buffs would look like
Part of this balance comes down to the efficiency of dps. Every MMO I've played forces players (to varying degrees) to do story content as a dps, or have a companion that fills this role. Some games, like ESO, make it as simple as using dps oriented gear, and give you access to enough variety of skills. Other people here have already mentioned the companions from SWTOR. The first option still asks you to play a style you may not want to play, and the second relies on your ability to direct your companion(s), or their AI. Some esoteric solutions exist, such as exploiting terrain or enemy AI, but these can lead to longer, often more boring, solo play. This all stills distills down to damage output being the most efficient way for playing solo content.
I think balancing the holy trinity requires a rethink of how quests are designed, alongside your redistributing player attributes. This might also help even out the number of healer/tanks vs DPS players.
The holy trinity is the response to the three interactions between fighters in a battlefield:
Enemy>Player: Tank
Player>Enemy: DPS
Player>Player: Healer
plenty of space for not this stuff, but the creativity and soul isn't there
@@Fosius It is possible to have classes that interact with the environment to make the battlefield more favourable to your team. That'd be a fourth gameplay interaction not often presen tin MMO's, mostly because its a very strong source of griefing.
Feel like FF14 did that each class has unique function while still beeing able to do enough of the other stuff.
Especially given that different classes give you different stat buffs when in a party and you can also meld materia to have a maximum output in the overall meta. Hence why there is a raiding optimal for a main tank, off tank, 2 different melee, 2 different ranged (ranged melee or caster) and 2 different healer types.
ff14 is too strict imo. I want hybrids and more diverse tactics. ff14 has no class customization to speak of. It doesn't even let you attempt to complete a dungeon with less people or any other class setup besides the one they give you.
@@Elrog3 While true within individual classes, I believe that the customization instead lies in your ability to just have every class on one character. Instead of having a couple classes with a bunch of builds, they make every class do that class's particular thing really well.
@@Elrog3 you can run unsynced dungeons on minimum iLvl with any comb. But yes it's not out of the box supported through the duty finder for a good reason tho because duty finder is a tool to find a party with best success chances and no frustration for rather easy content. Tho you can lfg with the party finder and do whatever you want right.
Not really they just made casual content in FF14 so easy that anyone can do it no matter how terrible they are so it doesn't matter how low the damage on tanks and healers are, or how low defense the dps have. Open world mobs barely do anything unless they're a fate boss or A/S rank hunt mob.
You've set the bar, and it's wonderful. If we ever get a game with these parameters, and I mean to a T, I would rip it off the theoretical shelves as fast as I could in order to get it. Like, I would get this thing as soon as it was out, and then i would play it every damn day.
And then I would spend a ludicrous amount of time in order to solo level a single character with the ability to completely trounce the perfect trinity.
I played a game called Orbus VR and played the warrior tank. It had a cool system where you could take a big shield which maximized your defense at the cost of halving your attack, but you could take a small shield which had lower defense without lower your attack. Damage was still too low to make solo tank very viable, but it was a good idea and I like that it gave more choice!
"glass cannon mages will be unable to solo because their survivability is so low" laughs in wow classic frost mage
It's amazing what you can do with a infinite snare and clever terrain abuse
This is a key point, there are traits like "survivability" that arent just numbers. This factor becomes very different when dealing with mobs vs PVE vs PVP because its not just a flat number. The idea of increasing numbers to minimum viable wont do anything for PVP or PVE, only questing which doesnt really matter anyways because its super easy
The frost mage isn't a glass cannon build, thats the whole point about the skill tree. Also, using terrain, tactic and chaining abilities is probably what Josh meant with the "solo-thrive" part of his system.
@@zidahya I mean in the holy trinity he is a glass cannon. But he is a CC machine. Which makes him really fun in solo play. In higher end PVE non hard CC (slows, short snares) aren't to important that's why he is basically a glass canon when you talk about it.
I feel like you just made a video about how things work in FFXIV lmao
That is true. He also describes how the majority of MMORPGs function.
Great ideas all around!
This is exactly my thought.
Sadly FF14 also has no viable leveling system because everything before endgame is pointless busywork
Well, I loved leveling and seen the story unfold lol
@@geameliai4500 that's true of literally every MMO with a leveling system out there.
FFXIV is arguably one of the few semi-exceptions to this rule as at least the story matters (to those into story) before the level cap.
Coming from an HC EQ2 raiding guild, I think that what they achieved was kinda awesome. Every classes had their uses, and every player had to dps. If you’re a healer that doesn’t dps, well you’re simply slacking of. A tank that doesn’t dps will never hold it’s aggro, and when your healees know their job and your dps are a bunch of savage competing for max epeen, maxing def doesn’t matter. Going back playing with casual was the most painful thing I’ve ever done tought... But everyone could have their fun which is the most important.
(I wrote this before hearing the specifics of what would be discussed so this is off topic)
When I tried to balance my multiplayer PvP game, I actually made it so that hard defenses and mitigation were more susceptible to status effects and DoT type attacks (because they were less likely to avoid damage altogether) and where mobility and damage avoidance was most susceptible to direct damage and hits (trying to avoid it left you open to more of the damage. And yes, there was a middle ground between these extremes and other options available). Over all I think it worked, but I do know at least a few that had issue with "having to build a certain way" in order to overcome tanky characters.
Mind you, there were other forms of attack that would work that aren't mentioned here but this was the topic brought up directly. Balance is... Subjective primarily because experiences within balance are what are used to judge balance.
I'd like the idea of classes interacting with each other more, creating specific synergies between certain roles and/or specs.
Without the need to create crazy (and countless) combo-abilities, a game could be designed with abilities interacting with each other, to a point. For instance, two targeted AOEs creating a deadly combination (a mage fire AOE spell enhancing a hunter's arrows into a volley fire) or two healing spells augmenting their effects. This could be a step forward from the typical combination of class buffs, maybe?
Wow that sounds so sick! It reminds me of a game called spellbreak where you can combine certain elements to use your abilities offensively or defensively. It's also a visual representation so people will notice it more and be more serious about having good synergies. Like a pyromancer makes your arrow barrage deal flame damage. Great Idea!
This is what Guild Wars 2 does, with some AoE abilities leaving Combi Fields that enchance other abilites for itself and others. It's pretty neat
@@damp8277 really? ESO is really the only mmo that I've played so far so there are a lot of things which are new to me.
@@doomhardt Yeah. It has some awesome mechanics. You can't change your class, but you can change pretty much everything in it. You should try seeing some vids about it, it's worth
At the end of the day, no matter how much you try, there will always be a BiS way to make a role
I know that it's been a couple of months for you, but reading this comment I was reminded about a saying on MMO players and optimization: "If allowed, players will optimize the 'fun' out of a game."
@@MekamiEye people will do anything even just to gain an extra 1k dps
Brilliant idea ! I'm surprised no other big game company has thought of this. From you, not surprised at all being an exceptional expert on MMO's !
You need to make a licensing deal with them on this. 💲💲💲💲
The Survive-Thrive has been done before in an MMO.. The Mist of Pandaria expansion for World of Warcraft where by that expansion everyone and the kitchen sink had an answer for everything.. , everyone had healing spells, utility spells, and were able to solo content without the need for any help, etc.. Then on top of this, Every class and specialization overall had a utility spells and buff spells that they were able to use on themselves or share with others to enhance others either actively or passive.
It was super fun, everyone loved the gameplay and that feeling of where deaths felt fair, and how you could solo play with virtually any class/spec and deal damage and kill mobs in a good pace (even as a healer) or self heal and survive decent sized mob pulls (even as traditional "glass cannon" specs), but at the same time, players hated it, they hated how outside of dungeons/raids every class had an answer to virtually every situation, and the lines between the specs were blurred, and hated how everything was was soloable as opposed to being pushed to groups, and how traditional "buff classes/specs" lost their uniqueness and were equalized with everyone else.
One of the reason I love (and still love thanks to the private servers) City of Heroes was that it effectively broke the holy Trinity in interesting ways...which is applicable for a Superhero MMO if I'm honest. The closest thing to a 'healer' was the Empath/Pain domination Defender/Controller/Corruptor/Dominator but those Archetypes aren't meant to be 'healers'. Instead the game focuses heavily on buffing/debuffing and crowd control to the point where 'healing' defenders were basically a meme.
With the right build you CAN solo a lot of endgame content, in fact it's a subset of the speed running community in the game, building a character who can solo the toughest content. Yes it takes a lot of ingame moolah to build out a character like that but farming for Inf (the games ingame currency) is actually pretty easy (so much so that when the game was live chinese bot farmers actually failed because everyone laughed them off the server because what they were charging for inf could be made in an hour or two of dedicated farming or just by playing the Auction House...which had guides on the forums on how to make easy profit...).
It was also the thing where, with the right powerset choices, what starts out as a heavily team based AT can become a monster solo AT. Illusion/Rad Controllers can become single target DPS monsters when you combine invincible pets (which baseline have a VERY long cooldown but with the right gear and build (called Enhancements) you can get it down so it becomes perma) or Fire/Kinetics controllers who can AoE mobs down.
I loved City of Heroes over DCUO BECAUSE it let you feel like a superhero at higher levels and not just a sidekick to Batman who is always better than you one on one and requires like 20 players to take down...
City of Heroes was vastly ahead of it's time and had numerous absolutely brilliant game design aspects. It's a shame NCsoft is such a garbage publisher.
Gw2 kind of let any class feel any role, and to be honest, its the best system in my opinion. You need to focus on what you want to do (dps, tank, heal, support) but any class can be any role. Gw2 all class start with same stat, and let you focus on any stat you want, so the class is more a flavor than anything else, wich to be honest is brillant. What if you love big armor and light stuff, than you take a paladin, but you also love to play dps, but in youre game the paladin is the tank. Class having specific role, remove the player choice.
I wouldnt say guild wars 2 let any class be any role. ESO does a much better job of that. Guild wars 2 had everything be DPS, and in raids made it to where there could kind of be a tank and druid scourge guardian and kind of ele could heal. Most classes only have self healing. But I also agree that the system they have going is one of my favorites, I just wish there was more of a trinity built into everything since GW2 doesnt actually have any aggro system outside of raids.
@@Shadoekite1 Gw2 is my base example, true its not perfect, not at all in fact. But not let forget that elite spec and class are not the same tho, example scrapper, is more support/tank and holosmith is a pure dps, but both are engineer class. I dont want any build doing eanything, but I love the fact that classes have not pre determine role (in the best univers XD)
And for ESO I did play it a bit but Im nowhere near the end game so I cant tell.
@@yvesgingras1475 I forgot about scrapper healer. But my point was that each class doesnt have every role. Like warrior cant be healer, theif cant be healer. But i do really like gw2 class setup where they do have multiple roles. But it is similar to WoW where Warriors can tank and dps Priests can heal and dps ect.
kinda funny when you can literally tank and heal and dps and support or vice versa on it
@@soulsfood5691 If they can do all role all the time, thats bad. But when each class can do all the role, when they build/focus on the role thats pretty fun.
Also one thing to note is that not every way to "buff" allies has to just be a stat bonus. The tank might get lots of crowd control and creep pulling abilities that they can't take full advantage of on their own, the healer can get debuffs for enemies and stat buffs for themselves/team, and the dps can get bonus damage against enemies with certain status affects that are difficult for them to apply but easy for other classes. This let's them all have active ways to synergize and makes class differentiation easier so you can have more than one tank, dps, and healer class and still make each one distinct without overshadowing each other.
Another way to enhance the perception of balance is listing classes as beginner, veteran, and hardcore classes. This will allow developers to experiment with less balanced classes while still providing beginners with viable classes for solo content
I feel like more games should do this. SOME do, but not a lot. I think it's because Devs want to talk about "balance", and if a class is "harder", then players expect it to do more damage/healing/tanking/utility/etc because they want to be "rewarded" for that extra effort. But the problem with this is, if it's easy enough to achieve, then that class becomes BIS for the raid team and everyone is forced to use it. But if it's too hard, then the easy class becomes BIS instead, since no one can achieve the good results from the harder class.
Single player games tend to do this, and the rare MMO like Lord of the Rings Online has a difficulty rating for different classes, but for the most part it's more just that it is a thing, but you have to play a game to find out, such as White Mage being easier to play than Scholar in FFXIV or Mage specs in WoW generally being easier to play than Warlock.
@@SubduedRadical agreed but even wow has massive difficulty disparities between classes, they just don't acknowledge it in-game. A beastmaster hunter is far easier than a shadow priest for example and a beastmaster is often top DPS in raids and dungeons.
guild wars 2 (and 1 even though i did not played it) gets over downsides of trinity quite well , a ranger can be a really strong dps in open world (even with gear focused around healing) but can be a healer too in raids and dungeons
Brilliant idea, should definitely work in PvE situations. In PvP I'm not a hundred percent sure, but open world PvP will often end up in a clusterf...est anyways, and instanced PvP can be tweaked regarding, so yeah. Would be really interesting to see this down the line in more and more games.
Ever played Albion online?, the PvP in that game can be a real shitshow lol
@@kastillopan They keep advertising it on this channel's videos and I'm waiting for it to show up on worst MMOs
@@Salsmachev I know
At what I consider the apex of WoW (Cata through Pandaria) I remember my guilds doing quite varied party combos, a third of our tanks were Druids, we even had a Warlock who proved they could tank all the 5-person endgame. Complementary buffs were a big chunk of what made it work.
Very good insights. Seems you have solved the game designer’s sleepless nights.
I still hate this system. Sure, you have tanky, DPSy and healy oriented classes, but instead of a trinity it should be more of a hexagon, if not a decagon. Instead of "healer" replace it with "support" because there's many more ways to support your teammates than just refilling their green bars. I miss the "debuffer" playstyle of a support class, it's my favorite way to play yet no current MMO offers such playstyle. A class/power sets which focus on controlling the enemies in combat and reducing their attributes to make them hit the tanky melee types less and take more damage from the damage dealers, even reduce their ability to heal or recover.
This video - FFXIV at 80 in a nutshell
I'm devouring your old videos, and I love this idea, but this also brought back very fond memories of my WoW Enhancement shaman, back when the point was literally to *enhance* your party members. Super capable solo, and I was an engineer so I had lots of extra toys to play with (it was incredible how many raids Rocket Boots came in handy). Oh, and the brief, shining few weeks I got to have a dual -wielding Frost Death Knight tank 😊 good memories.
You just described Guild Wars 2. Almost exactly.
As someone who mains a Healer class (for better or worst). I'm curious to see this topic explored because it's such a shame that roles like Tank and Healer are vital to raids... But very few actually want to do it.
I'm in charge of you staying alive or dying, if I'm not on top of it, I failed the team. It's a heavy weight at times but least I know that if everyone does their roles well, we all survive.
One of the main issues a lot of games run into with tanks and healers is the fact that, unlike DPS dev's rarely give them any meaningful form of gameplay.
Using tera for example: Healers press their gameplayless healing ability(Effective tab target instant heal/spawning instant healing orbs) once and stop because of healer aggro meaning they spend most of the fight idle/avoiding attacks because of healer aggro.
Then compare that to the DPS's who have situational DPS abilities and rotations in addition to their normal gameplay/ class specific DPS mini games.
@@Warcrafter4 True. Tanks are at the best when they are like Football linemen and forced to change how the pocket is formed. This leads to the problem decent team content makes terrible solo content and the other way around.
It's funny to me that you've essentially just completely described how FFXIV works. The developers even commented on wanting to make sure everything in the overworld is largely soloable.
As a game designer who has had to rebalance and overhaul the combat system for an MMO there are some good ideas here for sure. Quite possibly the trickiest aspect of designing for an MMO however is the breadth of player skill and playstyles. It's very, very difficult to build a system that allows all players to engage in the content they want to while also allowing them to feel challenged and/or progress.
It's great to see things like this being discussed though, looking forward to seeing any other videos you do on the topic. I'm more than happy to give further insight if it's something you'd be interested in :)
I was seriously doubting this video coming to it (and I'm a game developer) but this is fantastic.
Basically give players a bonus tier of stats that only applies on groups.
Are you going to make a video on Eve Online?
That would be good, I think. I have a 13 year old character on that game.
As a healer. I don't wanna heal myself. I want a group 😩
Summon an Army of Minions and heal/buff em to defeat the enemies! (sadly there aren't that many MMOs that have a healer/support summoner classcombination and those who do rarely let you effectively control your minions....
There is just so many RUclips videos about video games now I love it! When I was kid back then in 2007 it was so hard to find content on RUclips..
This sounds remarkably similar to concepts I've come up with in the past. Love the idea, and I think an MMO designed in this way could certainly improve on the holy trinity formula. This was a fantastic listen, thanks for sharing your thoughts!
so what is the new cup he will use today
A very cultured mug featuring a good boi
How have you not created an MMO yet?
P.s. Your hair is dashing here. Always a pleasure to see your content!
your question should answer itself when you watch his vids, my dude.
@@mr.izanami1796 Definitely a rhetorical question, but I agree. :)
I’m sure there are a few reasons, aside from the absurd amount of money it would cost just to even start the process
I just find this video now, you nailed it... I love trinity system, played 14yr L2 from C1(main healer). To anybody who know how hard L2 was for solo in beginning... These days the MMORPG games are missing, that hard gained rewards which can't be achieved just by hard working cooperation (and lot of fails), I remember sometimes I was just chatting with friends (guild members) asking how was their day, and just having fun in chat, these days all developer just try to make the game as easiest as possible to play for everybody specialy for players 12+... In old days you need to cooperate and communicate... These days in MMORPG (which is focused specialy on mass multiplayer online) the solo player can clear the game... And even if there are some dungeons raids... What ever team event there is lot of trash talk (mostly from young players) and everybody think they are superman... No cooperation at all... No dignity, courtesy... Nothing... Probably I am to old for this new era of gaming, but I as a veteran player would love to have some really nice MMORPG with balanced trinity system... But this everything is just my personal opinion... I wish you all the best and enjoy the gameplay 😊
IMO the way to break the downsides of the trinity is to give each of the three roles a mechanic that raises their minimal by using their specialty. For example: increase the Glass Mage's survival rate by giving it a mana shield, or give life leach to a rogue, turn healers solo-viable by making their heals damage undead around them, and give tanks a mechanic that allows them to kill enemies by actively mitigating the incoming damage ( like instant free hits upon blocking or overall increased damage output depending on damage taken/mitigated in the last 10s).
The big thing is to make sure these mechanics are 1) relatively niche so the healer doesn't turn in a DPSer against everyone all the time, 2)remains linked with their primary function of any given role for obvious reasons.
That said, it would also be interesting if said mechanic could be left to the player's choice, like perk trees, which would allow the player to choose whether they their DPSer to have the needed increased survival rate for soloing content through resource consumption(mana shield), dps focus (life leach) or maybe sacrifice the ability to deal crits at all for the ability to blind enemies (though i feel the tank role would be best served with the sacrifice mechanic: remove armor gear pieces for increased attack and damage.)
It really sounds like you are describing Guild Wars 2's balance. While tanks are kind of optional usually, you have healers and DPS that support each other though auras, buffs, and through combo fields.
yeah hes basically describing GW2 system and balance, I'm surprised that game doesn't have more attention. They need a better marketting department
Truth, I was thinking the same
@@Raught19 I can only really speak for my own experience with it but I think its because the auras and combo fields mechanics feels so different to what I wanted/expected from an mmorpg I couldn't get into it. I loved soloing but in any party type of content I couldn't ever really notice or understand how best to make use of those auras/combos and it didn't really feel like my party did either, we would just dps burn through things. There are other things with GW2 that made me bounce off it but those aren't relevant to the topic.
FFXIV is a good example of going into that direction of balance while still sticking to a holy trinity formula. They just need to add the buffing system JSH mentioned and it would be pretty close to that. They have dps that can buff other classes dps but not a lot in terms of a dps buffing a tank and so on.
Tanks are only useful in like .01% of the pve content in GW2. And the only reason is not because of survival stats keeps the tank alive but because the survival stats can control aggro. Without it, it would've been 8 dps + 2 healers or a combination of the sort.
GW2 is trash , all classes feel the same and does same shit just diffrent animations
You're quickly becoming one of my favorite youtubers! Such good videos.
And I'm a heterosexual man and even I can say you're very handsome, lol
And I love the Mug flex :D
Can't wait for a follow-up video. I'm sure this philosophy can be taken to new heights =)
P99 EQ got the balance down nearly perfectly. There weren't many good solo classes at the mid-game and absolutely no solo classes for the end-game. There is a lot of utility outside of just healing too. There were classes for debuffs, classes for crowd control, classes for teleporting the team from zone to zone, classes for bringing your team to the heart of the action from the zone entrance, and DoT dealers, as well as the big 3. Even the "useless" classes like paladins and shadowknights, which were objectively worse tanks than warriors had some tools like ripping aggro from adds that they could use to off-tank and clean up an engagement
Any class could realistically solo lower zones and mid level zones with some twink gear but the cooperativity of the game at the highest level made it the most memorable mmorpg experience for me...besides runescape
I like your ideas, but I'm trying to think about how as a developer would you implement this.
Well, i understand it as the survival threshold being the minimum stats for a class without any debuffs, the max solo being the max stats for a single character and then make it so that a healer would boost the hp regeneration of any tank in their current party by x amount and so on
Elementary math.
Most likely through a combination of gear for the solo stats and a sustained buff for the party/group buffs for each class.
I mean, just play GW2 if you want to see this implemented because this video sounds like he is describing GW2 system.
Utility enhancing poisons and magic buffs, like dmg reduction poison to help tank survive, castable aura on a tank that causes armor level to buff crit chance in an area around them, etc.
Tanks could provide target marking for DPS and heals, leaning into the shot calling aspect of tanking. Helping cut through the visual clutter and providing buffs/extra effects to damage done to marked enemies/healing done to marked allies.
Healers could provide short duration steroids to capitalize on weakness phases on bosses, or grant elemental damage or resistances to key roles.
I think the key is to make sure that the user of whatever enhancement they bring to the table benefits the least from it, and benefits the most from the ones the other 2 bring. Instead of a ranger providing ranged attack damage to the party, something really only themselves and other rangers would use, they could shoot the tank with an electric arrow and cause enemies that hit them to be stunned and interrupted.
you never managed to light attack weave on eso lol xD
He never gitted gud
Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
@@philxx100 He was showing the need to cater to casuals, even if they have British accent and a YooToob
Rising the lower stats of all classes is a neat idea, but can make for some op classes. An example of this was the Disciple, a martial arts close combat type of healer, which was tougher and did more damage than the average healer as he was generating resources to heal as he fought. This ment that there was a point when your healer could solo whole dungeons, as he could heal himself while dpsing at the same rate he would heal a tank. The only gain of grouping up was speed.
Thats why I really like lord of the rings online. While there are classic holy trinity classes and added supports, all classes have different skill trees which they can swap between at will out of combat. That means the bard who is supposed to be a pure healer has a damage skill tree and a damage stance which negates their ability to heal others, but enhaces their offensive capabilities and still enables self heal. Same for any class. Tanks can deal damage, supports have a damage tree for solo play but also a highly specialized buff or debuff tree for difficult content. And the damage classes have skill trees which sacrifice some damage but increase survivability. Every class (except Captain before the changes) can thrive on its own. But they can also be fully optimized for group play
when you dont do the trinity, you get guild wars 2..... Which is a mess. If yall disagree with me, then you obviously dont do high end fractals/raiding in gw2. It is indeed a mess, there is ONE well made class in the game, guardian. They rarely even attempt at balancing either. We joke and call it circle wars because theres just circles all over the floor.
Have you even played gw2? Based on your comment you havent, certainly not in endgame raids, fractals or pvp.
If you go beyond the trash lfg groups asking for healbrands to spoonfeed them through difficult content you discover the beauty of the system where all classes have their own things they excel in.
@@Lilybun Listen kiddo, i understand you love the game but that whole angle you got isnt gonna work here.
Whoever reads this will not be the first one to comment
First
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Curse you, Jon Halftip!!1
@@derGhebbet damn, i'm cursed now?
@@JDKDKDLDKDKDKDKKKDERYY only if you believe in magic.
@@derGhebbet im pretty safe then.
I think if you ever find yourself making/consulting a game that shit better be amazing.
In all seriousness, you are 100% correct and I hope dev's are watching your content.
I feel like another way to fix this is by hybridizing elements, which is where I feel a lot of modern design has been going
Tanks and healers do more damage, and there are some games where healers heal through their damage-dealing etc. For example, I remember there was a raid healing build in Guild Wars 2 where Guardians healed by generating a pulsing ground aoe through their auto-attacks and then buffed the party with a massive damage-reduction buff by slamming their hammer into their own AoE. All of these things also did steady AoE damage, but not as much as a dedicated DPS class would
That was the slowest I've ever seen a river troll die in my gaming career
I feel this may have been done before.
In FFX, for example, Yuna is clearly the party's healer but she can cast offensive spells and summon; Tidus is a dps but he can caste haste. The stats and skills were handled through a skill tree (sphere grid) that connected all the 'classes'.
I am late on this thread, but some of, if not the MOST fun I have had in any MMO was my time tanking during Mists of Pandaria in WoW. Not only did tanks get enough stats to rival the bosses HP wise, but mechanics in the game required you to use movement or you just died...and warriors had some of the most fun movement skills out there. I miss those days a lot.
Yo yo, love you bro Zach, and I’m sure I would love you more. Peace and love, and big up doing what you love xxxxxx