53sled Even if the video Is hypothetical you cant say the situation isn't real. How many bikes are made in the US now? The largest maker of frames for companies is Giant...chinese! They take our jobs. Poison our children and pets then use the profits to buy our realistate! Whatever MAGA is , Im not ashamed to have no idea what you mean. Just millenial doublespeak. My generation had no problem speaking whats on our minds. Example? FUCK YOU!
I totally would have pegged you for a trump voter. Perhaps you are the my vote doesn't matter but I'm going to bitch about stuff on youtube anyway type.
Oliver Batchelor You're smart, that could be true, but the guy who started Allied, made here in USA, said when he worked for Specialized (? someone correct me if I'm wrong), the trips to Asia, for QC, and the stupidest little stuff, it was easier to build them here in the States. He said if he wants to change something on a frame line, he can just walk out in his factory and change it. Where the hurdles he had to jump through in Asia were unbearable.
As a former product manager for a couple US brands, I can say you've provided a the most accurate picture of the harsh realities of the bike biz I've ever seen in an 11 minute video. My busiest years I took 6 trips to Taiwan and/or China, each trip two weeks long. The largest US-based bike brands have employees living there full time to wrangle QC issues daily. Great job on digging into the facts!
Thanks for the feedback. It means a lot to us that people, such as yourself, who've "been there and done that" on the factory level feel that we hit the mark. Much appreciated. We're always aiming to hit that mark, but it's a big story to squeeze into a video of this length. Cheers.
It's the same with China in other industries. Either you micro-manage, be the PIA and dad at the same time, or you probably will fail. They either will run down your products, or someone else will take your company.
Great piece! This begs the question do some smaller brands build in the US to avoid costly trips overseas, keep QC in check easier & at the same time keep jobs in the US. Makes me proud of my high quality Durango Moonshine & talking directly with the owner during the build. I'd love to see a similar piece on Durango Bikes, Guerilla Gravity, & other US made bikes & parts.
Rob Melvin - Exactly, LOL... I've done this VERY thing, just not with frames. And, I never had to leave the States, it was done all online over video chat and on the phone. It was actually just as easy as this video is trying to say "It isn't".. NOW... Don't get me wrong... If you're trying to start out with a colossal corporation style structure, and trying to immediately jump into the top 10 brands of any given industry, then of course its "not that easy". lol But, if you're a small outfit just wanting to make a living, penetrate into the market, and start building your brand, then yes, it is that easy. :) Look at the years, the way, and HOW each of tnt following companies started: - Fit Bike Co. (BMX) Stated as a VERY small brand way back by a rider who teamed up wth a money group. Now they're colossal. - NEW: Cult Bikes (BMX) Originator of Fit Bikes, got tired of the way Fit was going, and branched out and re-started "Cult". With the way they brand, two riders they pick up, and the way they market in the industry, they EASILY captured market share and are a quickly rising company. - Snafu (BMX) used to be a tiny little operation with not much to offer. They scaled up, and are now a high end parts company that provides huge market share. - Sunday (BMX) - ands literally 1000's of others started off the same small way, then scaled larger and larger into the he companies they are today (like the companies listed above). It's not so much about "best quality" anymore, as it is about "honorable warranties and really, really, really cool riders that are in the 'in' crowd within the market's audience". There are some TERRRRRIBLE quality frames, parts, and etc out there right now that cost more than better parts/quality. But, because they have the "cool guys" pushing and riding their brand, everyone jumps on tbe bandwagon like a freaking clique in high school, haha. So, the moral of the story in the BMX industry always seems to be: - f*ck supreme quality, decent quality is good enough. - If you provide a virtually 'no questions asked' warranty system, everyone automatically thinks your the shit and that your products are insanely awesome (even though they're incomparable to the top 10 durable products in the market). - Get really cool guys that are wild, funny, and gimmicky to ride your products and promote your brands and you'll gain a massive cult-like following out of nowhere because brand and image mean EVERYTHING in riding now. Who gives a shit about safety, quality, and ingenuity anymore!? pshhhh... - Pay your riders well so they'll keep their mouths shut about the operation of the inner workings within the company, and they'll continue to promote your brand regardless of how shitty it is. hehe (This is my experience with the BMX industry. We started producing and selling the parts and products we have, over 10 years ago. We're now a major player within the BMX industry aftermarket sect, and I honestly have no idea how. lol. Our parts are made the same as everyone else's, our factory is the same as everyone elses, and the only difference between us and the next leading 5 guys is the looks of it products and the way we image ourselves within the industry, haha). So, to anyone watching this video: don't let it shit on your dreams. As long as you plan ahead for scalability, and you have a solid branding plan and way to step up the image of your small company, then go for it! :)
"It's not so much about "best quality" anymore, as it is about "honorable warranties and really, really, really cool riders that are in the 'in' crowd within the market's audience" Never a truer work spoken!
@@strikeforcek9149 Actually QC on custom bike frames are a very different story to random bike componentry, and if you HAD tried to do what the video was about, you'd have found that out yourself 1st hand. I tried the China direct container purchase method, but the quality of the stock was very hit or miss, and then a couple years ago I partnered up with a colleague on a venture to make hand built, high quality, custom FS Ebike frames in Asia, and there was a myriad of problems that needed to be addressed, from the blueprints/plan stage, to the actual assembly of the bike frames. Instead of using Taiwanese or Chinese frames and factories plus the issues with that, we went with a small independent custom frame maker in Lombok, Indonesia. He can make pretty much any frame style you can imagine, (even bamboo frames if you like,) and personally supervises his workforce of welders and painters etc, so his QC standard is higher than most factories. However despite all the pre-thought, we nevertheless had a post-manufacture issue with needing to add more steering clearance when using dual crown forks. This meant each frame needed to be re-done and have a more tapered panel welded to the newly modified head tube, top tube and down tube to fix the issue, (even though the frame wasn't originally specified for a triple clamp.) Add to that the fact that Lombok was hit by a series of killer earthquakes that paralyzed the Island, and you can see why someone would have to be there to keep things moving, (time is money too,) as well as quality up, ok perhaps not physically on the ground in an Earthquake, but def right after, or something like that could derail a fledgling company if administered remotely. Even componentry needs close supervision as I find out to my cost. Once a shady Chinese manufacturer specced a bike out with a "normal industry type bottom bracket." I mean who checks a brand new BB if it's not creaking? Most assume that nowadays when even a base level industry BB, a sealed bearings Sq taper is sub $10, there'd be no room for a manufacturer to "cheap out," well think again, beautiful hydroformed alum frame, lovely matte black and blue paint job and... POS generic chinese version, caged bearing, FRENCH bottom bracket!! Yup, French, unbelievable. He probably sourced them for next to nothing and figured "why not?" That's the problem, finding out just where the Chinese factory cut the corners to enable such a cheap price. If you check carefully it will always be there and you REALLY DON'T want to be Stateside, unloading a shipping container of them, when you DO discover it!
Yeah, you could literally make a new bike brand by just making your logo in MS Paint and sending it to a manufacturer in China along with some cash and your home address. They will do the rest and get the bikes shipped to your door in a month or two, depending on how many bikes your ordered and with which parts.
I did a survey on bike business last year. One of the top manufacturers in China quoted me $40-50 per frame for aluminum and $200 for carbon, start quantity is 50 frames. For complete road bikes, it's fair for customers to pay $600-1000 depends on the group sets.
Careful on how they would tell you what you want to hear to get you in first, then add up as you discover what you don't want down the road. Bait and switch is a popular game they play there.
Excellent look at one aspect of the bicycle industry and what it takes to not only start up but also compete on a global scale. As an entrepreneur opening a local-bike shop, I appreciate this type of content from Pinkbike!
Same here. Many people came to me sayin the typical 'you better go china and get the bikes done cheaper'... Which is not. I'm a very little bike maker and I don't want to mess around with huge numbers. Thanks to this video, now I can see light at the end of the tunnel!
All people that are doing good in a business will talk you down trying to demotivate you. Of course it is a lot of work involved like anything else good in life.
@@jmanswat2457 They are actually doing you a favor by telling you how not to get ripped off. The video contained commentary from more than just bike company representatives.
Kinesis Industry (company), Commencal, Diamondback, Felt Bicycles, GT Bicycles, Haro, Ideal, Jamis, K2, Kona, Kross, Raleigh, Redline Bicycles, Santa Cruz Bicycles, Schwinn, Storck, Sunn, Titus Cycles, Torker, and Trek in this order... find what geometry you like, see what companies (in the list) are building it compare customer service and warranty reviews best price and then i guess, pick a color.
Interesting video. I'm doing my master thesis at the moment on marketing in relation to urban cycling. What I find interesting is this huge disparity between performance and comfort cycling at opposite ends of the spectrum. The bicycle industry, which I've found to be well behind most other industries in terms of really cutting edge digital marketing trends, is entrenched in Taiwan and China. Most of the people working in these industries are the very same gear heads who have designed and engineered the products and have no idea of what potential cyclists would want or look for in a bicycle. Nearly 75% of the industry and the four biggest bicycle brands in the world produce almost exclusively performance products. What cities are trying to do is sell 'comfort' cycling, a segment which accounts for less than 15% of the market. Traditionally performance products have created a culture around cycling that filters into cities, where people think you have to be fit, athletic, know everything about specifications and the rules of the road to hop on a bike etc. 'Cities are big and it takes speed and exertion to get where you need to go!'. You don't. Just look to the Netherlands and see what type of bikes everyone there rides. They are all comfort bikes and like you mention conversely, almost 100% of the bikes imported to the US are from Taiwan and China. Just imagine how that influx of performance bicycles and all the marketing that goes into it shapes Americans' perceptions of what it means to bike. The Netherlands has the highest per capita rates of cyclists and are naturally the most skilled at biking as just a regular thing you do. Give an American a high-end performance bike and ask him to ride around Amsterdam and you'll see he'll look like a lame duck out of water. The Dutch don't have fancy performance bikes, they have solid classic no-fuss frames, a rack, and two functioning wheels that get them everywhere from A to B. This preoccupation with speed, performance and specifications that almost the entire industry is founded upon is in fact a huge barrier for people to cycle because it contributes to their view of what is required to cycle or what a cyclist is. Just look at Giant, they finally created the Giant Liv brand for women in 2008 because they realised that the whole performance cycling industry is almost exclusively catered towards men. Astonishing to think that it's less than a decade ago that it took the performance cycling industry as a whole to realise that they were actually only really targeting one half of their potential market. Well, in fact they are targeting much less than half because of this counterproductive focus on specifications, performance, speed and 'high-end' quality. Of course they are important to some people but ultimately cycling is one of the simplest things anyone can do with an exceptionally high cost-benefit ratio. All you need is a simple bike and normal clothing and the mobility options that gives you in cities is endless. Bicycles are the most needlessly overcomplicated product on the market in relation to the overall added utility that a top of the line performance bike has over a cheap thrasher city bike that could literally still get just about anyone where they need to go.
It's also worth adding that the macho nature of the bicycle industry can be explained quite simply by the fact that the only women in this video are the ones with their jugs out handing out marketing materials.
You're spot on, RAGBRAI (ride across Iowa, 10,000 registered riders, 5-7,000 unregistered and daily riders) this year, 2018, our team had 3 riders come over from the Netherlands, a mother, her son and his wife. The mother, 60ish, had a 20 yr old 'scrapper' of an aluminium bike that she chugged along with everyday the 450 miles of the ride, I couldn't believe how heavy it was compared to mine, but I'm like you said, all about performance, get a new bike every 4-5 years, and constantly upgrading what I have. That was what she said they rode everyday in Holland. Think her son had a newer bike. You get an A on your thesis project.
But the bit you are missing is that in the Netherlands there are cycle lanes everywhere that separate cars and bikes and so it is safe for everyone to cycle. I live in London and although some bike lanes are being built and more people are cycling still many/most people find cycling in busy traffic too intimidating. So the average person does bot use a bicycle as their main means of transport, even though it would be much faster than bus transport and good for the environment. A majority of the people who cycle regularly in London are men in professional jobs who commute into Central London to/from their office jobs. They are well paid and like high performance bikes so buy loads of carbon fibre racers. Thus the focus of bike companies on selling high margin £1000+ carbon fibre racers.
In my city where urban line bikes have appeared and the planners started out spacious the bikes look attractive and welcoming in rows. Generally the media are attacking all two wheeled transport. No one over 6' 1" can find a ridable, upright-seated highway bike off the big fours' racks or Harley or Italy that gets seventy miles to the gallon. They won't spring for a tall visor, a sixth gear, and a medium sized engine because they fetishize option so as to divide, divide, divide attention while people buy the bike AND THE LOAN for the bike in the same sitting.
7 лет назад+29
It's the same thing with sourcing any products from Asia. You have to build the connections and trust. This was really interesting!
I just found this channel. Holy shit guys. The quality of this video is INSANE. Like seriously feels like way more than a RUclips video. I would expect to see this on Netflix.
Great video, but why such a click bait title? No, you didnt go to Taiwan to start your own bike company, you went to Taiwan to talk to ppl that that started their own company.
So every person in this video who has a bike company. Said don't start a bike company? Great video. But, I find it hard to believe that these guys are 100% sincere in their advice.
think about how many freakin bike companies in the world there are x how many produced x then how many are actually made this fashion and rebranded.... your bike will look like everyone else's bike and cost 3 x more..... I think starting a bike company in which you cant actually produce your own bikes, is a terrible idea.... ^^
Ya. I lost track of how many "Kickstater" bikes/e-bikes I've seen recently that are nothing but rebranded bikes that have been on AliExpress or Alibaba for several years now. All being touted at 2-3x the price as new and unique or custom.
Wow, great to have Joel Smith on here. He took a leap of faith and went for it with Tomac bikes...I'm stilling riding a Tomac Diplomat and a Tomac Flint. They're great bikes and Joel's a top notch guy. Obviously making bikes is not a simple as we all think it is! Great vid. -Greg
GREAT VIDEO AND QUALITY CONTENT -- WELL DONE GUYS. I SENSE AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF UNSAID FRUSTRATION ON THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE BEING INTERVIEWED. WOW THIS MUST BE A LABOR OF LOVE FOR SURE. BEST WISHES TO ALL. THANKS AGAIN!!!
This is really cool. I love seeing what is really happening in this industry. I would love to see more behind the scenes stuff of what companies are using what factories, especially those direct to consumer brands and direct from Asia brands.
I forgot to say that if you introduce new tech then you might as well kiss your idea or invention goodbye if you go to Taiwan or mainland China.You will receive a special meeting with government officials and engineers posing as business men and they will be very eager to discuss anything with you including how your family is doing.Then once you leave the country you will see similar ideas pop up at other manufacturing facilities if its good.Forget about lawyering up because they make it impossible for anyone to receive compensation for patented ideas that can be tweaked.You can still make bikes in your own country and come out with profit but you wont be making 6000 percent profit ratios.
Oh, finally someone did a real overview of this. When I was working for one european bike brand I lived in China for 3 months and that was really pain in the ass. First week, month, its okay, its fun. But after that, they are doing mistakes if You're not babysitting them. And as usual, they want to screw with You on money or quality lvl. On the other way, You can find really good manufacturers there, which will give You incredible prices for things which can be profitable 20x. I still have hubs I bought at China Bicycle Expo 2011 for +- 10e / pair, they still looks great and sealed bearing are still like new (15000km of trail ride). Im not saying start a bike company is pain in the ass, but its not for everyone. Its really stressful, take some time, money, but riding Your own bike with Your own geo, shapes, graphics and branded components.... its worth it
Do you just visit the factory and they just allow you to enter it? Or do they allow you to set up a small area as your office space inside the factory and you stay there the whole time to check the product?
I started a wheel company four years ago and i basically buy carbon rims layered up specifically for me from a well established OEM producer. I have never had any issues with the quality. Neither the hubs i buy from some specific manufacturers made any trouble. It is basically ordering, getting the import papers including taxes and all that stuff done, unboxing the rims and hubs, checking each part on damages, lacing up, trueing and that was it. It is VERY seldom i have to return a rim or a hub. Maybe three rims per year. And we talk about a few hundred wheelsets a year i build and sell. But sure, if you go for the most shitty and cheapest vendor, you might end up with production quality issues that can break your neck.
Started a bike company 11 years ago... been knocked down many times, but each time I get up, I make it a little farther. You just gotta keep reinventing little parts of yourself and slowly, you get it right. I started by manufacturing track bike chainrings... which is a very niche market. I was just inches away from a business deal with Leader Bike USA, but I just couldn't compete with Taiwan!! I spent months working on his concept and I produced CAD models and a few prototypes, at my expense and the price was around $23/ring, while Taiwan was pumping out cold forged rings for $10. I stripped out all the cool features and graphics and my price in the USA was still $13...
They actually do build it, they design and prototype it in the lab (most big manufacturers do) but mass production is done in Taiwan as its much easier and cheaper than putting money in a manufacturing plant.
v1d300 yeah, I know that, but I guess I imagined that their manufacturing was done in house. Almost every other industry works the same way, but I guess I just thought bicycle companies were different. Mainly because the biking community is just so hipster. I'm okay with manufacturing being done this way though, cuts cost, which means frames can be sold for less.
Ryan Burston I haven't specifically seen these videos. However, I'm tempted to say there's at least a few companies that don't outsource their manufacturing. But who knows?
I hope that Cannondale and Schwinn will some day bring there manufacturing back to the USA. I have a lot of respect for people who buy or manufacture bikes in the USA. Thanks so much for this.
Nevermind the qc and getting the bike made. Once those bikes arrive in the USA or wherever they have to be sold. Who wants a bike brand they have never heard about? You have to shift them and you might end up doing it at cost or a loss. It will keep you busy though!
This is awesome! My family business is designing, and importing high end clothing made in the UK or Italy and we deal with the exact same problems. Over the years we have developed good relationships with some manufacturers who we can trust while others are a constant nightmare. Don't even get me started on the Irish . . .
This was the best piece I've seen in a LONG time. Honestly Vernon Felton who I liked as a personality but at BIKE I always felt they were catering to advertisers with their glowing reviews. It just got tiring and I stopped watching because the reviews had no credibility to me. However THIS was a breath of fresh air! Not only was it entertaining it made me think about Pivot cycles in the future seeing the care they place in their bikes. Content like this is good for the viewer and those that take the time to spend time with you folks to create content. Well done. ...subscribed.
great video, in the past i was riding bmx, and a friend started a bmx frames bike company, he did order from taiwan and said it was a lot of work and sometimes he didnt even sleep, i wondered how the process should be, this video was amazing clearing my questions.
Great vid. I ride a Turner. Dave has all these same stories to tell. I buy from him not just because his bikes are top notch, but also to support an American builder. Unfortunately, he has now abandond aluminum frames and is getting carbon from Taiwan.
the problem is not setting up a new range, it's SUPPORTING them in the real world when the electrics are 18 months old and that shiny beauty is not reliable. THAT is the question, all over the world, people with bikes in the garage that dont work any more and no one knows how to fix em!
I represent a company who specializes in supplier development in India and China for US Companies. We're located in Indianapolis and coordinate everything. From initial product development, QC through delivery. It is a TON of work and we have a great team to make it happen.
Seems like it makes sense if you are doing massive volumes, but otherwise I'd just start small and have amazing quality and service built in Usa or Canada.
It's interesting that we all live in our own bubbles and if you're into cycling or think about starting a cycling related company, it seems like everyone and their mom is trying to start a cycling company. If you're not you don't notice it. Maybe you think that everyone is trying to become a travel filmmaker, a RUclipsr, an Instagram model, a programmer, a tech entrepreneur, etc. - all because this is where your focus is shifted.
Honestly this makes me appreciate my Guerilla Gravity even more. All that money and time saved from not having to be overseas doing the QC and instead invested in R&D of a recyclable carbon bike made here in the US.
do you know, several Itanian high end companies including for bike, actually have their producrts all made in Taiwan and then have them sent to Italy and rebrand those bikes as Made in Italy I saw this old Italiano's face in one of those business magazine articles shoes are also some of those high end things that are actually made in Taiwan but rebranded by those Europeans companies such as Gucci
I live in Taiwan and bought a MASI here. The guy at the bike shop said that MASIs, though made here in Taiwan, are mostly sold in Italy. Great bike, btw. Six years later it still rides like a dream.
This is similar situation with Italians but way better. From concept to manufacturing to final products (numerous copies of them) is always QA at every production process.
If you guys interested in making dirt jump/street bikes, I suggest you guys contact with DPSbikes, they are a new born brand and make some sickest frames.
move to taiwan, go from factory to factory to test samples. buy the one you like in minimum quantities, then sell those frames to discerning customers.
80k and 30k to start a bike business is not bad at all. On top of that all these that sell to you here in the states and especially those bike brands that only sell to shops and not to consumers are price gouging tf out of your. 3k to 8 -10k for carbon... Go on Dhgate and you'll actually see frames from these companies for like 400-700 bucks. a full suspension frame from same factories.
Those are the costs of the frames not the cost of starting a business. You probably might be better of buying a frame from a local dealer and paying the trade mark up when you are starting out. You probably could acquire a lot less frames and be able to eyeball them yourself. So if you want to start a $30k bike business that is how you would do it. So you may pay $10000 for the frames and then have $20000 remaining to construct the business and the various components required.
If Pivot bikes are so great, with second to none quality, why is their warranty only three years? If they believe in their product they should offer a lifetime warranty like Trek, Specialized or Santa Cruz.
My Trek 520 was over 10 years old and had 55000 miles on it when the frame broke. Trek replaced the frame for free and I couldn't even produce a receipt for buying it.
I worked in a machine shop. The office ordered some parts and when they finally arrived all 200k were unusable because they didn't pass QA/QC. Then on the business side the Chinese company refused to fix/compensate so we just ended up with a massive load of scrap metal.
Sure building a bike brand would be difficult- but getting a group of friends together to do a group-buy of some sweet carbon frames would be a lot of fun! Would be neat to "make your own brand" with no intention of it ever succeeding, and just having a custom bike for cheap.
To people who are saying ofc bike companies are discouraging new entrants to the market, as they don't want etra competitors: An Orange 6061-T6 Aluminium Five frame, hand built in England, costs a consumer £1860 with a mid-level RockShox shock. The off-shelf bikes here are about £550 from the manufacturer, but that excludes other costs the middleman will have to pay, eg import duties, storage, logistics, marketing, distro, shop, staff etc costs. A consumer might buy one of these frames for £1100, even a complete from Pivot starts at about £2300. So, you have to recoup your 80K USD investment over 100 bikes, plus factor in your other costs, pay yourself and any other workers a wage, and then try to turn a profit. That's not even factoring in other barriers to entry, like competitors already being established in the marketplace... This is a fast way to lose money.
Jimsy - England has a 40% import tax on bikes. That's why the English-made bike market is flourishing. With SKY winning 6 of the last 7 TdF's, cycling is huge there, just like it was here when Lance was winning.
It IS harder than one might think. As a tiny manufacturer in Australia I took a recumbent trike frame to have it made in Taiwan. Boy was I naive. I got most of my parts from Taiwan and that was nowhere near as hard once I'd found a maker of one part who was willing to traipse around sourcing other parts from other makers. As for the frame, I said TIG, they did MIG. I wanted TIG because that's how I custom built my frames. I was shown some wonderful TIG welding, but I got MIG for my trouble. Think hard before you go down this route...
I would assume shipping a bulk number of bike frames would cut down the shipping quite a bit per bike as well as the insurance cost. So the initial price would be lower. Unless you took an overall price quoted that you didn’t show us being quoted and broke it down.
I still think is easy, you just creat a frame design (a prototype) then create a kickstarter and encuery some frames, give some for free to celebs and you are rolling...
Thing is - if you were a Chinese national and did the same shopping trip you would no doubt get dramatically lower prices. Be worth hiring a China based project manager for the money (and issues) you would save.
To answer the question, yes somebody could go to Taiwan and start a bike company with enough money. But the question becomes can a person be successful, distinguishing themselves from the big bike manufacturers or get better pricing by building bicycles with interchangeable standardized parts from Taiwan? I think not, unless of course you either have a great marketer and/or you have a new idea which makes your bike different, like Pinion gearboxes did over the old gear brackets and shifter, or gates belt drive did over the metal chain.
You like Chris C would be a natural pain in the ass Vernon. I custom ordered my Pivot carbon and can confirm it came well packaged without any flaws what so ever out of the box. On the pricy side but I wouldn't be happy with anything less. Nice to see where it was born. Successful business plans evolve over generations.
"How do you feel about living in Taiwan (or China) for four to six months of every year?" I'd LOVE it. Please send me to Taiwan! BTW, dig the Taiwan Beer shot @6:00. Gold Medal is good stuff!
Everyone will always tell you can't do it, I'm special, its not that easy, in fact I bet it is not nearly as difficult as it seems. Startup of a Million dollars, local guy to check on frame production, assembly at small warehouse locally, import taxes and regulatinons on shipping aren't rocket science, CAD software and engineering guy (people are desperate to work in bikes, low wages), marketing is straightforward like any other business and distribution, profit margins are HUGE in bikes, HUGE HUGE HUGE, if you do it decently, bikes people like (frame + SRAM\Shimano\Fox) lots of money to be made and market share to go around. Interesting video on the factories.
Very insightful video, thanks. Now you've investigated it, it seems almost obvious that if you want to sell a piece of engineering, it takes a lot more than just parting with a wad of cash to a manufacturer then hoping for the best.
So where do all these e bike brands that pop up get their frames from. I can see in regular bikes where there is much more competition having issue. But in the ebike market where u don't have to worry about how light the bike is due to motors power aren't people literally just going there and starting up a company for their frames.
Ebikes, I'm not a fan of, but from what I've read so far, each major brand is doing things differently, some have the motor assist the crank, others the rear wheel, one powers a centrifugal disc on the rear wheel, and weight is a concern, with weights coming down to 20lbs and hiding an extra battery as a water bottle. Some are so concealed, you'd never know they were ebikes.
Ok great video, but for us that want to start small in a market that is still new, I thinking starting with already made frames which have been through some level of quality checks. Stick the decals on and components. How can we get technical advisers to carry us through the process. Thanks
Would be higher per product on purchase but when the complete business service is included it probably is on par or just a little over. Obviously trying to match a $50 frame in America would be almost impossible but who on earth wants to rind on a $50 frame.
Conversation on Pinkbike is going off:
www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbike-went-to-taiwan-and-started-a-bike-company.html
where can I buy Tiwan source Book ??
Much aggression. So tough. Very impressed. Wow.
This video is hypothetical. no jobs are lost to a chinese person you can go MAGA yourself in a corner.
53sled Even if the video Is hypothetical you cant say the situation isn't real. How many bikes are made in the US now? The largest maker of frames for companies is Giant...chinese! They take our jobs. Poison our children and pets then use the profits to buy our realistate!
Whatever MAGA is , Im not ashamed to have no idea what you mean. Just millenial doublespeak. My generation had no problem speaking whats on our minds. Example? FUCK YOU!
I totally would have pegged you for a trump voter. Perhaps you are the my vote doesn't matter but I'm going to bitch about stuff on youtube anyway type.
Of course these people are going to say it's so hard! They're not going to want a bunch of new competitors...
Oliver Batchelor You're smart, that could be true, but the guy who started Allied, made here in USA, said when he worked for Specialized (? someone correct me if I'm wrong), the trips to Asia, for QC, and the stupidest little stuff, it was easier to build them here in the States. He said if he wants to change something on a frame line, he can just walk out in his factory and change it. Where the hurdles he had to jump through in Asia were unbearable.
i dont think what he says maybe true,cause u never go through ,talking only can be very easy
As a former product manager for a couple US brands, I can say you've provided a the most accurate picture of the harsh realities of the bike biz I've ever seen in an 11 minute video. My busiest years I took 6 trips to Taiwan and/or China, each trip two weeks long. The largest US-based bike brands have employees living there full time to wrangle QC issues daily. Great job on digging into the facts!
Thanks for the feedback. It means a lot to us that people, such as yourself, who've "been there and done that" on the factory level feel that we hit the mark. Much appreciated. We're always aiming to hit that mark, but it's a big story to squeeze into a video of this length. Cheers.
It's the same with China in other industries. Either you micro-manage, be the PIA and dad at the same time, or you probably will fail. They either will run down your products, or someone else will take your company.
Mr808Late Nope.
Good luck with the company! Nicely made video!
Great piece! This begs the question do some smaller brands build in the US to avoid costly trips overseas, keep QC in check easier & at the same time keep jobs in the US. Makes me proud of my high quality Durango Moonshine & talking directly with the owner during the build. I'd love to see a similar piece on Durango Bikes, Guerilla Gravity, & other US made bikes & parts.
Yea! But I guess it's easier to bitch about us jobs disappearing while continuing to source from low-cost Asia...
lol what would you expect a bike manufacturer to say when you ask him how easy it would be to start up a new competitor to his company...
Rob Melvin - Exactly, LOL...
I've done this VERY thing, just not with frames. And, I never had to leave the States, it was done all online over video chat and on the phone. It was actually just as easy as this video is trying to say "It isn't"..
NOW... Don't get me wrong... If you're trying to start out with a colossal corporation style structure, and trying to immediately jump into the top 10 brands of any given industry, then of course its "not that easy". lol
But, if you're a small outfit just wanting to make a living, penetrate into the market, and start building your brand, then yes, it is that easy. :)
Look at the years, the way, and HOW each of tnt following companies started:
- Fit Bike Co. (BMX)
Stated as a VERY small brand way back by a rider who teamed up wth a money group. Now they're colossal.
- NEW: Cult Bikes (BMX)
Originator of Fit Bikes, got tired of the way Fit was going, and branched out and re-started "Cult". With the way they brand, two riders they pick up, and the way they market in the industry, they EASILY captured market share and are a quickly rising company.
- Snafu (BMX)
used to be a tiny little operation with not much to offer. They scaled up, and are now a high end parts company that provides huge market share.
- Sunday (BMX)
- ands literally 1000's of others started off the same small way, then scaled larger and larger into the he companies they are today (like the companies listed above).
It's not so much about "best quality" anymore, as it is about "honorable warranties and really, really, really cool riders that are in the 'in' crowd within the market's audience".
There are some TERRRRRIBLE quality frames, parts, and etc out there right now that cost more than better parts/quality. But, because they have the "cool guys" pushing and riding their brand, everyone jumps on tbe bandwagon like a freaking clique in high school, haha.
So, the moral of the story in the BMX industry always seems to be:
- f*ck supreme quality, decent quality is good enough.
- If you provide a virtually 'no questions asked' warranty system, everyone automatically thinks your the shit and that your products are insanely awesome (even though they're incomparable to the top 10 durable products in the market).
- Get really cool guys that are wild, funny, and gimmicky to ride your products and promote your brands and you'll gain a massive cult-like following out of nowhere because brand and image mean EVERYTHING in riding now. Who gives a shit about safety, quality, and ingenuity anymore!? pshhhh...
- Pay your riders well so they'll keep their mouths shut about the operation of the inner workings within the company, and they'll continue to promote your brand regardless of how shitty it is. hehe
(This is my experience with the BMX industry. We started producing and selling the parts and products we have, over 10 years ago. We're now a major player within the BMX industry aftermarket sect, and I honestly have no idea how. lol. Our parts are made the same as everyone else's, our factory is the same as everyone elses, and the only difference between us and the next leading 5 guys is the looks of it products and the way we image ourselves within the industry, haha).
So, to anyone watching this video: don't let it shit on your dreams. As long as you plan ahead for scalability, and you have a solid branding plan and way to step up the image of your small company, then go for it! :)
OSP K9 I never get it why I should buy stuff some pro rider uses. most of them don't even have a choice, hahaha.
"It's not so much about "best quality" anymore, as it is about "honorable warranties and really, really, really cool riders that are in the 'in' crowd within the market's audience"
Never a truer work spoken!
@@strikeforcek9149 Actually QC on custom bike frames are a very different story to random bike componentry, and if you HAD tried to do what the video was about, you'd have found that out yourself 1st hand. I tried the China direct container purchase method, but the quality of the stock was very hit or miss, and then a couple years ago I partnered up with a colleague on a venture to make hand built, high quality, custom FS Ebike frames in Asia, and there was a myriad of problems that needed to be addressed, from the blueprints/plan stage, to the actual assembly of the bike frames.
Instead of using Taiwanese or Chinese frames and factories plus the issues with that, we went with a small independent custom frame maker in Lombok, Indonesia. He can make pretty much any frame style you can imagine, (even bamboo frames if you like,) and personally supervises his workforce of welders and painters etc, so his QC standard is higher than most factories. However despite all the pre-thought, we nevertheless had a post-manufacture issue with needing to add more steering clearance when using dual crown forks. This meant each frame needed to be re-done and have a more tapered panel welded to the newly modified head tube, top tube and down tube to fix the issue, (even though the frame wasn't originally specified for a triple clamp.) Add to that the fact that Lombok was hit by a series of killer earthquakes that paralyzed the Island, and you can see why someone would have to be there to keep things moving, (time is money too,) as well as quality up, ok perhaps not physically on the ground in an Earthquake, but def right after, or something like that could derail a fledgling company if administered remotely.
Even componentry needs close supervision as I find out to my cost. Once a shady Chinese manufacturer specced a bike out with a "normal industry type bottom bracket." I mean who checks a brand new BB if it's not creaking? Most assume that nowadays when even a base level industry BB, a sealed bearings Sq taper is sub $10, there'd be no room for a manufacturer to "cheap out," well think again, beautiful hydroformed alum frame, lovely matte black and blue paint job and... POS generic chinese version, caged bearing, FRENCH bottom bracket!! Yup, French, unbelievable. He probably sourced them for next to nothing and figured "why not?"
That's the problem, finding out just where the Chinese factory cut the corners to enable such a cheap price. If you check carefully it will always be there and you REALLY DON'T want to be Stateside, unloading a shipping container of them, when you DO discover it!
Yeah, you could literally make a new bike brand by just making your logo in MS Paint and sending it to a manufacturer in China along with some cash and your home address. They will do the rest and get the bikes shipped to your door in a month or two, depending on how many bikes your ordered and with which parts.
I did a survey on bike business last year. One of the top manufacturers in China quoted me $40-50 per frame for aluminum and $200 for carbon, start quantity is 50 frames. For complete road bikes, it's fair for customers to pay $600-1000 depends on the group sets.
AL China shit sucks not worth 10 $
40-50$.. OK, on the factory? on the port? Add import tax, transport, quality control, etc.
Careful on how they would tell you what you want to hear to get you in first, then add up as you discover what you don't want down the road. Bait and switch is a popular game they play there.
Excellent look at one aspect of the bicycle industry and what it takes to not only start up but also compete on a global scale. As an entrepreneur opening a local-bike shop, I appreciate this type of content from Pinkbike!
Best of luck! Where is your shop?
Same here. Many people came to me sayin the typical 'you better go china and get the bikes done cheaper'... Which is not. I'm a very little bike maker and I don't want to mess around with huge numbers.
Thanks to this video, now I can see light at the end of the tunnel!
If you ever choose to start a bike company send me a frame and I will crash test it for you 😂
All people that are doing good in a business will talk you down trying to demotivate you. Of course it is a lot of work involved like anything else good in life.
Flex LCS. Or... IS it that easy and they want less competitors-haha!
@@jmanswat2457 They are actually doing you a favor by telling you how not to get ripped off. The video contained commentary from more than just bike company representatives.
Kinesis Industry (company),
Commencal, Diamondback, Felt Bicycles, GT Bicycles, Haro, Ideal, Jamis, K2, Kona, Kross, Raleigh, Redline Bicycles, Santa Cruz Bicycles, Schwinn, Storck, Sunn, Titus Cycles, Torker, and Trek
in this order...
find what geometry you like,
see what companies (in the list) are building it
compare customer service and warranty reviews
best price
and then i guess, pick a color.
Interesting video. I'm doing my master thesis at the moment on marketing in relation to urban cycling. What I find interesting is this huge disparity between performance and comfort cycling at opposite ends of the spectrum. The bicycle industry, which I've found to be well behind most other industries in terms of really cutting edge digital marketing trends, is entrenched in Taiwan and China. Most of the people working in these industries are the very same gear heads who have designed and engineered the products and have no idea of what potential cyclists would want or look for in a bicycle. Nearly 75% of the industry and the four biggest bicycle brands in the world produce almost exclusively performance products. What cities are trying to do is sell 'comfort' cycling, a segment which accounts for less than 15% of the market. Traditionally performance products have created a culture around cycling that filters into cities, where people think you have to be fit, athletic, know everything about specifications and the rules of the road to hop on a bike etc. 'Cities are big and it takes speed and exertion to get where you need to go!'. You don't. Just look to the Netherlands and see what type of bikes everyone there rides. They are all comfort bikes and like you mention conversely, almost 100% of the bikes imported to the US are from Taiwan and China. Just imagine how that influx of performance bicycles and all the marketing that goes into it shapes Americans' perceptions of what it means to bike. The Netherlands has the highest per capita rates of cyclists and are naturally the most skilled at biking as just a regular thing you do. Give an American a high-end performance bike and ask him to ride around Amsterdam and you'll see he'll look like a lame duck out of water. The Dutch don't have fancy performance bikes, they have solid classic no-fuss frames, a rack, and two functioning wheels that get them everywhere from A to B. This preoccupation with speed, performance and specifications that almost the entire industry is founded upon is in fact a huge barrier for people to cycle because it contributes to their view of what is required to cycle or what a cyclist is. Just look at Giant, they finally created the Giant Liv brand for women in 2008 because they realised that the whole performance cycling industry is almost exclusively catered towards men. Astonishing to think that it's less than a decade ago that it took the performance cycling industry as a whole to realise that they were actually only really targeting one half of their potential market. Well, in fact they are targeting much less than half because of this counterproductive focus on specifications, performance, speed and 'high-end' quality. Of course they are important to some people but ultimately cycling is one of the simplest things anyone can do with an exceptionally high cost-benefit ratio. All you need is a simple bike and normal clothing and the mobility options that gives you in cities is endless. Bicycles are the most needlessly overcomplicated product on the market in relation to the overall added utility that a top of the line performance bike has over a cheap thrasher city bike that could literally still get just about anyone where they need to go.
It's also worth adding that the macho nature of the bicycle industry can be explained quite simply by the fact that the only women in this video are the ones with their jugs out handing out marketing materials.
You're spot on, RAGBRAI (ride across Iowa, 10,000 registered riders, 5-7,000 unregistered and daily riders) this year, 2018, our team had 3 riders come over from the Netherlands, a mother, her son and his wife. The mother, 60ish, had a 20 yr old 'scrapper' of an aluminium bike that she chugged along with everyday the 450 miles of the ride, I couldn't believe how heavy it was compared to mine, but I'm like you said, all about performance, get a new bike every 4-5 years, and constantly upgrading what I have. That was what she said they rode everyday in Holland. Think her son had a newer bike. You get an A on your thesis project.
Netherlands I meant.
But the bit you are missing is that in the Netherlands there are cycle lanes everywhere that separate cars and bikes and so it is safe for everyone to cycle. I live in London and although some bike lanes are being built and more people are cycling still many/most people find cycling in busy traffic too intimidating. So the average person does bot use a bicycle as their main means of transport, even though it would be much faster than bus transport and good for the environment. A majority of the people who cycle regularly in London are men in professional jobs who commute into Central London to/from their office jobs. They are well paid and like high performance bikes so buy loads of carbon fibre racers. Thus the focus of bike companies on selling high margin £1000+ carbon fibre racers.
In my city where urban line bikes have appeared and the planners started out spacious the bikes look attractive and welcoming in rows. Generally the media are attacking all two wheeled transport. No one over 6' 1" can find a ridable, upright-seated highway bike off the big fours' racks or Harley or Italy that gets seventy miles to the gallon. They won't spring for a tall visor, a sixth gear, and a medium sized engine because they fetishize option so as to divide, divide, divide attention while people buy the bike AND THE LOAN for the bike in the same sitting.
It's the same thing with sourcing any products from Asia. You have to build the connections and trust. This was really interesting!
Anyone see the guy sleeping on the floor @ 8:53?lol
hahha
very common for asian to have micro-naps during work :)
I know. I'm asian.
me too. We don't have comfortable floors where I work. I suppose I could drive my van to the office instead of ride bike bike though. :)
LOL - I wonder about the working conditions there...
8:36 the dude sleeping between the boxes lol
how did i not see that. Lmao!!
I guess it's lunch break
I know this video is old but I just rewatched it and noticed that haha. They have a nap time at most manufacturers in Asia for every type of product.
I just found this channel. Holy shit guys. The quality of this video is INSANE. Like seriously feels like way more than a RUclips video. I would expect to see this on Netflix.
Great video, but why such a click bait title? No, you didnt go to Taiwan to start your own bike company, you went to Taiwan to talk to ppl that that started their own company.
This dope!!! I has a Morgan Spurlock feel to it.
So even you came here checkin chances?! XD
Skills With Phil now that you mention it, they DO both have the handlebar mustache...
I swear
So every person in this video who has a bike company. Said don't start a bike company? Great video. But, I find it hard to believe that these guys are 100% sincere in their advice.
think about how many freakin bike companies in the world there are x how many produced x then how many are actually made this fashion and rebranded.... your bike will look like everyone else's bike and cost 3 x more..... I think starting a bike company in which you cant actually produce your own bikes, is a terrible idea.... ^^
Ya. I lost track of how many "Kickstater" bikes/e-bikes I've seen recently that are nothing but rebranded bikes that have been on AliExpress or Alibaba for several years now. All being touted at 2-3x the price as new and unique or custom.
Taiwan is one of the best places for expats to live, in terms of being welcoming. It's not miserable unless you're a homesick person who hates travel.
Wow, great to have Joel Smith on here. He took a leap of faith and went for it with Tomac bikes...I'm stilling riding a Tomac Diplomat and a Tomac Flint. They're great bikes and Joel's a top notch guy. Obviously making bikes is not a simple as we all think it is! Great vid.
-Greg
GREAT VIDEO AND QUALITY CONTENT -- WELL DONE GUYS. I SENSE AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF UNSAID FRUSTRATION ON THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE BEING INTERVIEWED. WOW THIS MUST BE A LABOR OF LOVE FOR SURE. BEST WISHES TO ALL. THANKS AGAIN!!!
This is really cool. I love seeing what is really happening in this industry. I would love to see more behind the scenes stuff of what companies are using what factories, especially those direct to consumer brands and direct from Asia brands.
I forgot to say that if you introduce new tech then you might as well kiss your idea or invention goodbye if you go to Taiwan or mainland China.You will receive a special meeting with government officials and engineers posing as business men and they will be very eager to discuss anything with you including how your family is doing.Then once you leave the country you will see similar ideas pop up at other manufacturing facilities if its good.Forget about lawyering up because they make it impossible for anyone to receive compensation for patented ideas that can be tweaked.You can still make bikes in your own country and come out with profit but you wont be making 6000 percent profit ratios.
If you want to setup your own bike company build it with black bamboo and resin & carbon fibre in the USA keep it home based. Just a idea
Best bike video I've seen in a while and why having Vernon leave Bike Mag was a good choice. Well done!
I'm confused... so did you start a bike company or not. Did you just go on a vacation trip then go back and drank some beer?
C. Lincoln maitais he said. Real men drink beer.
This is not exclusive to the bike industry. Great video that shows one of the challenges of global manufacturing. Nicely done gents!!
seriously the best thing on RUclips right now!... Vernon is freakin' awesome!
Oh, finally someone did a real overview of this. When I was working for one european bike brand I lived in China for 3 months and that was really pain in the ass. First week, month, its okay, its fun. But after that, they are doing mistakes if You're not babysitting them. And as usual, they want to screw with You on money or quality lvl. On the other way, You can find really good manufacturers there, which will give You incredible prices for things which can be profitable 20x. I still have hubs I bought at China Bicycle Expo 2011 for +- 10e / pair, they still looks great and sealed bearing are still like new (15000km of trail ride).
Im not saying start a bike company is pain in the ass, but its not for everyone. Its really stressful, take some time, money, but riding Your own bike with Your own geo, shapes, graphics and branded components.... its worth it
Do you just visit the factory and they just allow you to enter it? Or do they allow you to set up a small area as your office space inside the factory and you stay there the whole time to check the product?
I started a wheel company four years ago and i basically buy carbon rims layered up specifically for me from a well established OEM producer. I have never had any issues with the quality. Neither the hubs i buy from some specific manufacturers made any trouble.
It is basically ordering, getting the import papers including taxes and all that stuff done, unboxing the rims and hubs, checking each part on damages, lacing up, trueing and that was it.
It is VERY seldom i have to return a rim or a hub. Maybe three rims per year. And we talk about a few hundred wheelsets a year i build and sell.
But sure, if you go for the most shitty and cheapest vendor, you might end up with production quality issues that can break your neck.
Hi Unix Based, I want to ask you a few questions regarding your wheel company and how you started it. Can you please let me know how to contact you ?
Fuck Yes, more of these style videos please!
Now add the cost of tariffs on those bike frames.
I like the sleeping guy in the video!
Started a bike company 11 years ago... been knocked down many times, but each time I get up, I make it a little farther. You just gotta keep reinventing little parts of yourself and slowly, you get it right. I started by manufacturing track bike chainrings... which is a very niche market. I was just inches away from a business deal with Leader Bike USA, but I just couldn't compete with Taiwan!! I spent months working on his concept and I produced CAD models and a few prototypes, at my expense and the price was around $23/ring, while Taiwan was pumping out cold forged rings for $10. I stripped out all the cool features and graphics and my price in the USA was still $13...
Best video of the year! perhaps of the past 5 years!
I definitely wouldn't want to do this, but i'm glad there are people like you to take the initiative and keep the bicycle industry thriving!
Awesome video, for some reason, I thought frame manufacturers actually built their frames.
They actually do build it, they design and prototype it in the lab (most big manufacturers do) but mass production is done in Taiwan as its much easier and cheaper than putting money in a manufacturing plant.
v1d300 yeah, I know that, but I guess I imagined that their manufacturing was done in house. Almost every other industry works the same way, but I guess I just thought bicycle companies were different. Mainly because the biking community is just so hipster. I'm okay with manufacturing being done this way though, cuts cost, which means frames can be sold for less.
haha same. I think that's because I've seen videos of the devici and trek factory
Ryan Burston I haven't specifically seen these videos. However, I'm tempted to say there's at least a few companies that don't outsource their manufacturing. But who knows?
There are, small companies like Nicolai for example, smaller production-higher quality imo.
I hope that Cannondale and Schwinn will some day bring there manufacturing back to the USA. I have a lot of respect for people who buy or manufacture bikes in the USA. Thanks so much for this.
Thanks from Taiwan
Nevermind the qc and getting the bike made. Once those bikes arrive in the USA or wherever they have to be sold. Who wants a bike brand they have never heard about? You have to shift them and you might end up doing it at cost or a loss. It will keep you busy though!
This is awesome! My family business is designing, and importing high end clothing made in the UK or Italy and we deal with the exact same problems. Over the years we have developed good relationships with some manufacturers who we can trust while others are a constant nightmare. Don't even get me started on the Irish . . .
This was the best piece I've seen in a LONG time. Honestly Vernon Felton who I liked as a personality but at BIKE I always felt they were catering to advertisers with their glowing reviews. It just got tiring and I stopped watching because the reviews had no credibility to me. However THIS was a breath of fresh air! Not only was it entertaining it made me think about Pivot cycles in the future seeing the care they place in their bikes. Content like this is good for the viewer and those that take the time to spend time with you folks to create content. Well done. ...subscribed.
great video, in the past i was riding bmx, and a friend started a bmx frames bike company, he did order from taiwan and said it was a lot of work and sometimes he didnt even sleep, i wondered how the process should be, this video was amazing clearing my questions.
Great vid. I ride a Turner. Dave has all these same stories to tell. I buy from him not just because his bikes are top notch, but also to support an American builder. Unfortunately, he has now abandond aluminum frames and is getting carbon from Taiwan.
the problem is not setting up a new range, it's SUPPORTING them in the real world when the electrics are 18 months old and that shiny beauty is not reliable. THAT is the question, all over the world, people with bikes in the garage that dont work any more and no one knows how to fix em!
You could just buy off the shelf parts and put them together. It would be lower margin but it can be done.
I represent a company who specializes in supplier development in India and China for US Companies. We're located in Indianapolis and coordinate everything. From initial product development, QC through delivery. It is a TON of work and we have a great team to make it happen.
nice stowage at 8:30 "we have to be here .. to make sure that everything is how we like it to be" :D
Seems like it makes sense if you are doing massive volumes, but otherwise I'd just start small and have amazing quality and service built in Usa or Canada.
DCassidy42 Amen
It's interesting that we all live in our own bubbles and if you're into cycling or think about starting a cycling related company, it seems like everyone and their mom is trying to start a cycling company. If you're not you don't notice it. Maybe you think that everyone is trying to become a travel filmmaker, a RUclipsr, an Instagram model, a programmer, a tech entrepreneur, etc. - all because this is where your focus is shifted.
Honestly this makes me appreciate my Guerilla Gravity even more. All that money and time saved from not having to be overseas doing the QC and instead invested in R&D of a recyclable carbon bike made here in the US.
Excellent start to what I hope is an ongoing series. - If you could get into the components piece of the process that would be dope.
Thank you guys. Love this format.
Wow that was really well produced. Good stuff!
do you know, several Itanian high end companies including for bike, actually have their producrts all made in Taiwan and then have them sent to Italy and rebrand those bikes as Made in Italy
I saw this old Italiano's face in one of those business magazine articles
shoes are also some of those high end things that are actually made in Taiwan but rebranded by those Europeans companies such as Gucci
I live in Taiwan and bought a MASI here. The guy at the bike shop said that MASIs, though made here in Taiwan, are mostly sold in Italy. Great bike, btw. Six years later it still rides like a dream.
It goes back to the days of steel frames. Many TdF bikes with well known brands had their top bikes built by small custom builders and re-badged.
Great Video. Funny and Informative! Well played Pinkbike.
“We went to Taiwan and interviewed people on starting a bike company.”
Absolutely stellar video. Would love to watch an even more in-depth one!
video production is awesome. makes me want to watch more. great video guys.
Great insight video for so many thinking the question! Thanks Andy
This is similar situation with Italians but way better.
From concept to manufacturing to final products (numerous copies of them) is always QA at every production process.
they do that to keep out other bike brands so Giant and Merida can keep dominating the bicycle market
Ariana Gandhi no but it's the cultural thing, if you are launching your business there, whatever kind, you'll have to go through all that.
If you guys interested in making dirt jump/street bikes, I suggest you guys contact with DPSbikes, they are a new born brand and make some sickest frames.
Great content and top notch production value. Thumb's up!
move to taiwan, go from factory to factory to test samples. buy the one you like in minimum quantities, then sell those frames to discerning customers.
80k and 30k to start a bike business is not bad at all. On top of that all these that sell to you here in the states and especially those bike brands that only sell to shops and not to consumers are price gouging tf out of your. 3k to 8 -10k for carbon... Go on Dhgate and you'll actually see frames from these companies for like 400-700 bucks. a full suspension frame from same factories.
Those are the costs of the frames not the cost of starting a business. You probably might be better of buying a frame from a local dealer and paying the trade mark up when you are starting out.
You probably could acquire a lot less frames and be able to eyeball them yourself. So if you want to start a $30k bike business that is how you would do it. So you may pay $10000 for the frames and then have $20000 remaining to construct the business and the various components required.
Interesting video. Always intriguing stuff brought by Vernon.
Very, very well done! Nice work PB
If Pivot bikes are so great, with second to none quality, why is their warranty only three years? If they believe in their product they should offer a lifetime warranty like Trek,
Specialized or Santa Cruz.
My Trek 520 was over 10 years old and had 55000 miles on it when the frame broke. Trek replaced the frame for free and I couldn't even produce a receipt for buying it.
mwinner101 - Giant bikes also have a lifetime replacement warranty.
Why worrying about life time warranty? I want a New Bike every year! Talking about they suck too!
Just saw in my latest edition of Mountain Bike Action that Pivot stepped up and now offers a 10 (TEN!) year warranty! Well done Pivot. 👍 @pivotcycles
mwinner101 ... because money is too important to them, they don't want to potentially give you a new bike every 3 years, no money in that for them
I worked in a machine shop. The office ordered some parts and when they finally arrived all 200k were unusable because they didn't pass QA/QC. Then on the business side the Chinese company refused to fix/compensate so we just ended up with a massive load of scrap metal.
You should have written the guarantee into the terms of the Letter of Credit. You did pay by LC didn't you?
Outstanding video! Thanks for the insight into the underbelly of the industry! Cheers!
Sure building a bike brand would be difficult- but getting a group of friends together to do a group-buy of some sweet carbon frames would be a lot of fun! Would be neat to "make your own brand" with no intention of it ever succeeding, and just having a custom bike for cheap.
And that's why I bought a Megatrail, made in Denver Colorado.
To people who are saying ofc bike companies are discouraging new entrants to the market, as they don't want etra competitors:
An Orange 6061-T6 Aluminium Five frame, hand built in England, costs a consumer £1860 with a mid-level RockShox shock. The off-shelf bikes here are about £550 from the manufacturer, but that excludes other costs the middleman will have to pay, eg import duties, storage, logistics, marketing, distro, shop, staff etc costs. A consumer might buy one of these frames for £1100, even a complete from Pivot starts at about £2300.
So, you have to recoup your 80K USD investment over 100 bikes, plus factor in your other costs, pay yourself and any other workers a wage, and then try to turn a profit. That's not even factoring in other barriers to entry, like competitors already being established in the marketplace... This is a fast way to lose money.
Jimsy - England has a 40% import tax on bikes. That's why the English-made bike market is flourishing. With SKY winning 6 of the last 7 TdF's, cycling is huge there, just like it was here when Lance was winning.
I'm not into bikes but this was a very interesting high quality video - Kudos to all involved.
This is great work by the whole team & hella funny & factual!
It IS harder than one might think. As a tiny manufacturer in Australia I took a recumbent trike frame to have it made in Taiwan. Boy was I naive. I got most of my parts from Taiwan and that was nowhere near as hard once I'd found a maker of one part who was willing to traipse around sourcing other parts from other makers. As for the frame, I said TIG, they did MIG. I wanted TIG because that's how I custom built my frames. I was shown some wonderful TIG welding, but I got MIG for my trouble. Think hard before you go down this route...
Same applies to all outsourced manufacturing. If you are not doing it yourself you really cannot just leave it up to the other guys.
I would assume shipping a bulk number of bike frames would cut down the shipping quite a bit per bike as well as the insurance cost. So the initial price would be lower. Unless you took an overall price quoted that you didn’t show us being quoted and broke it down.
I just realized how much i miss sitting at the pub with friend.
You should go this weekend!
I still think is easy, you just creat a frame design (a prototype) then create a kickstarter and encuery some frames, give some for free to celebs and you are rolling...
Awesome and informative video! Can be applied to many other industries. Thanks for taking the time to educate us :)
Thing is - if you were a Chinese national and did the same shopping trip you would no doubt get dramatically lower prices. Be worth hiring a China based project manager for the money (and issues) you would save.
To answer the question, yes somebody could go to Taiwan and start a bike company with enough money. But the question becomes can a person be successful, distinguishing themselves from the big bike manufacturers or get better pricing by building bicycles with interchangeable standardized parts from Taiwan? I think not, unless of course you either have a great marketer and/or you have a new idea which makes your bike different, like Pinion gearboxes did over the old gear brackets and shifter, or gates belt drive did over the metal chain.
The worker sleeping at 8:47 LOL
Best video I have seen on this topic
Excellent video!!! I always assumed you have to babysit batches and I was right!
I LOVE EWAN MC GREGOR'S LOOK !! lol ! really well done video, i don't understand how it hasn't more views ; there's a lot of interesting stuff there
Very cool informative video! Thanks for making it!
You like Chris C would be a natural pain in the ass Vernon. I custom ordered my Pivot carbon and can confirm it came well packaged without any flaws what so ever out of the box. On the pricy side but I wouldn't be happy with anything less. Nice to see where it was born. Successful business plans evolve over generations.
"How do you feel about living in Taiwan (or China) for four to six months of every year?"
I'd LOVE it. Please send me to Taiwan!
BTW, dig the Taiwan Beer shot @6:00. Gold Medal is good stuff!
Its amazing that any bikes make it over at all....
Great video. I loved the Pinkbike plane haha
Great video. Really appreciated the cost break down.
Everyone will always tell you can't do it, I'm special, its not that easy, in fact I bet it is not nearly as difficult as it seems. Startup of a Million dollars, local guy to check on frame production, assembly at small warehouse locally, import taxes and regulatinons on shipping aren't rocket science, CAD software and engineering guy (people are desperate to work in bikes, low wages), marketing is straightforward like any other business and distribution, profit margins are HUGE in bikes, HUGE HUGE HUGE, if you do it decently, bikes people like (frame + SRAM\Shimano\Fox) lots of money to be made and market share to go around. Interesting video on the factories.
Very insightful video, thanks. Now you've investigated it, it seems almost obvious that if you want to sell a piece of engineering, it takes a lot more than just parting with a wad of cash to a manufacturer then hoping for the best.
So where do all these e bike brands that pop up get their frames from. I can see in regular bikes where there is much more competition having issue. But in the ebike market where u don't have to worry about how light the bike is due to motors power aren't people literally just going there and starting up a company for their frames.
BoyTitan - Yes, they are.
Ebikes, I'm not a fan of, but from what I've read so far, each major brand is doing things differently, some have the motor assist the crank, others the rear wheel, one powers a centrifugal disc on the rear wheel, and weight is a concern, with weights coming down to 20lbs and hiding an extra battery as a water bottle. Some are so concealed, you'd never know they were ebikes.
Ok great video, but for us that want to start small in a market that is still new, I thinking starting with already made frames which have been through some level of quality checks. Stick the decals on and components.
How can we get technical advisers to carry us through the process.
Thanks
Wondering if it is cheaper to go there buy the parts like transmission and stuff. It's consumable anyway
It would be amazing if you go to local US or Canada machine/welding shops and get prices on the frames
Would be higher per product on purchase but when the complete business service is included it probably is on par or just a little over.
Obviously trying to match a $50 frame in America would be almost impossible but who on earth wants to rind on a $50 frame.
MOAR like this!