At a little get together at my house once, a guest had taken her plate over to the sweet spot on the couch to eat. I walked over and she looked at me kind of wide eyed and asked "Where are the other speakers?" "Just those" i replied, pointing. "But the sound is coming from--" "Yeah" This made me so happy.
It was a revelation when speakers in my room first disappeared. I had made a tweak to some very modest consumer speakers and pretty much by accident the illusion appeared and the speakers disappeared from the sound stage. Now, it is so pronounced that the sound not only comes from behind the speakers, it has caused the wall behind the speakers to disappear as a lot of the sound is well behind the wall. I'm used to it now, but it is a marvel of audio illusion.
@@xaviermontalban717 This is a little controversial but I'll just put it out there. The speakers were some original Boston Acoustics A100s. I had ripped out the crossover and put in a simple first order using a Blackgate cap so they were getting pretty transparent but likely not real flat in frequency response. The change that did it was a technique advocated by a guy on DIYAUDIO he called EnABl. Basically stiffening the paper cones and then painting a pattern on them that manages edge effects. Same was also done to the cabinets and out of no where they disappeared for the first time. It was one of those audio snake oil things you don't expect to do anything so when it did this it was pretty impactful. Since then I have far better everything and the disappearing act is downright pervasive.
The first time I heard disappearing speakers was when a friend of mine bought a pair of Bose 901 direct / reflecting speakers back in the 70s. At that time I had never heard of Bose. He invited me over and asked me if I could tell where the music was coming from and I honestly couldn't. I could see the speakers but it sounded like the music was coming from everywhere. They really surprised me and they sounded great.
It´s like seeing with both eyes, each one has its own "picture" and it is combined in the brain to a 3D image. The same happens with a good setup stereo sound.
Thank you so much Paul for answering my question today. I hope someday to be able to experience what you are describing. Until then I will continue to enjoy listening to music in conjunction with movie viewing with surround sound in my multipurpose space called a living room. It does not allow me to place speakers optimally as I am sure many people encounter as they don’t have a listening room dedicated to audio instead have a room where they also listen to audio/music. Again thanks for highlighting and answering my question!
Thankyou for this. I have been achieving this illusion of over 25 years. As you say getting the ideal speaker placement and getting the best out of the electronics and BINGO you get the illusion of the sound coming not from the speakers. Also you will get movement of the performers moving around within the soundstage.
It's all about timing and phase of the sound. As some say below not every recording disappears and not every recording to the same degree. But good electronics and speakers that reproduce the sound in the correct phase and time of the sound information that is similar and different from each speaker is perceived by the ears to occur at certain points in space between and sometimes beyond the speakers. Even mono recordings can disappear but then you have the entire sound coming out of the middle and not much to the sides or front to back. Keep in mind that even with the best system sometimes part of the music floats in space while some of it comes out of the speaker.
This can also depend on the recording, especially old mixes. And drivers too, even on the most holographic speakers, a tweeter or mid needing serviced can highlight a location. But the biggest thing is also the room, I remember two rooms, where we had a great layout and space, Kef 105.4 and 107 simply imaged in an uncanny manner, well outside and even with th eright tracks sound would appear like some sort of surround. This was also a great experience with Martin Logan CLZ II. The way an image could be steered around a room. I remember something similar with PMC BB5, and a mid in need of servicing would occasionally reveal itself, noting the speaker, and and old tweeter set with dried up ferrofluid, highlighting location at times. But getting those speakers to disappear is the highlight of a set up, along with bass performance. Tape all over the floor, leaning left and right, back and forward. So much fun.
The way this happens is that the reverberations in the listening room create micro time delays causing phase shifts at certain frequencies that when sufficient dislocate the apparent position of the speaker in relation to the listener. Speaker position , listening position and room reflection are rquired ...its like having a room with lots of mirrors seems larger than it is .... its fun changing your listening position as you get a different experience every time .. all of them are "correct" plus unique spacial information .
Lynn. If you ever find yourself in IA god forbid, I'd be happy to give you a demo. It's wild the first time you sit in front of a system and hear laser focused elements that you know are coming from a pair of speakers that are totally outside that stage. Even if it's not a permanent possibility in your system, at least Google and implement the Cardas rectangular room speaker placement calculation. Chances are you'll hear exactly what you asked about.
Placement from the front wall is key to this. My speakers are completely gone. When I turn my volume up it’s like I’m turning up the entire room-there’s no localization of sound
What also helps is standmount rather than floorstander and centre of tweeter and midwoofer being placed close to each other. My Dynaudio Evoke 10s have this and are supported by good to excellent electronics. The result is, even when the speakers are not optimally placed they STILL disappear.
I have a pair of great sounding floorstanders that are 42 in. Tall and 12 in. Wide. When I had them placed in the proper audio triangle, they were only 5 feet from my listening position. They did disappear with the properly recorded music, but only in the dark, because they were in my face and I couldn’t ignore them unless I kept my eyes closed. I recently moved them two feet back. They are now 24 inches from the front wall and not in my face. They now disappear in the light of day. It’s a combination of proper setup and psycho acoustics.
It’s mostly the recording, honestly. A good recording and the cheapest bookshelf speakers you can find can essentially disappear. But even on the best setup in the world, if the recording wants you to, you can hear the speaker locations.
12" woofer are the best in my judgement. I don't use a Sub Woofer. I have too many speakers for sure. Not too many want to have 20 floor speakers in the listening room. When I set myself in the right spot and close my eyes you can hear one side or the other and individual musicians. Very cool and that to me is "speaker disappearing".
Proper placement room treatment will help achieve the goal of speaker unity to achieve the goal of speakers disappearing. Also need gear that can run system adequately as well.
The AI Overview "appears" to put this issue into perspective: : Speakers "disappear" when the soundstage they create is so well-defined and immersive that the listener can't pinpoint the exact location of the sound source, making it seem like the sound is coming from everywhere in the room, rather than just the speaker itself; this is achieved through careful speaker placement, room acoustics, and speaker design that produces a wide, even sound dispersion, particularly when using multiple speakers to create a surround sound effect. Key points about "disappearing speakers": Soundstage Imaging: The most important factor is creating a wide and deep soundstage where the sound appears to come from a space behind and between the speakers, not just directly from them. Speaker Placement: Positioning speakers at the right angles and distance apart, often "toeing them in" slightly to direct sound towards the listener, can significantly impact soundstage creation. Off-Axis Response: High-quality speakers with good off-axis response ensure sound quality remains consistent even when listening slightly off-center from the speaker. Room Acoustics: Treating the room with sound-absorbing materials can help to diffuse sound reflections and improve the overall sound quality. Speaker Design: Some speaker designs are specifically engineered to create a more diffuse sound field, contributing to the "disappearing" effect. The end result is that all the speaker disappearing rhetoric, tending to border on hyperbole when agenda based, is obsolete.
When a speaker vanishes... its basically that the audio fills the room, "Holographically" ...Instead of seeming to come from any one "point source". Ive owned like 30 pairs of speakers... and only ONE of those speakers was able to Vanish. When I experienced it, I was totally blown away. In fact, I then placed these smaller Audiophile Bookshelf Sized Speakers, on top of some very large Advents (full sized speaker towers)... and asked my friend to tell me which speakers he thought were playing. He sat about 8ft away, on the couch. I popped on some music... and he quickly pointed to the Large Advents. I chuckled... and said, Nope!. Then I toggled the Advents on... to reveal how different they sounded. His mind was blown. Partially, because those small speakers created some very serious Bass, for their Size. But also, because you couldnt actually tell that the sounds were coming from those speakers. The music is simply hovering in the middle of the air... in 3d space, without a Point Source. Its pure Magic. Now... sometimes Ive gotten some cheaper speakers to have a much lesser degree of being noticeable. Especially if you EQ them, to be less offensive (for example... if the tweeters are too "HOT", you can dial them down to the point where they are present, but not offensively shouting "Im Here!"). But even with the best placement.. and the EQ... you often still get moments where your attention is drawn to the actual Drivers / Speakers. This is big issue with Non-Audiophile grade drivers. Unbalanced levels.. with overly "HOT" output, slightly "colored" sounds, slightly artificial sounding sounds, micro-distortions, and lack of a wide and deep "3d Soundstage" (When the intended 3D Image gets severely flattened, due to micro-distortions. This seem to be especially true, of speakers that use Horns). Certain Recordings, are also part of the equation. Not all music is engineered, to create a good soundstage. Most especially older recordings (especially pre-70s.. and even some 70s songs)
@@sanonmars The speakers I have are EPI 100v speakers. EPI was eventually bought out by Genesis Physics. Genesis Physics continued to use the same Epic drivers, in most of their speakers. If you seek out a pair, make sure they have all original drivers. The woofer is easy to identify, as it has a smaller dust cap diameter than most modern woofers. You also want to make sure you have the "Upgraded" tweeter version. The older version is mounted to a Fiber-Board backing. The newer tweeter versions, are mounted to a plastic backing bezel. The newer models, have much greater sound clarity and dynamics. That said.. you can also buy replacement parts, or a full build kit... from a man that used to work at that company. He repairs old drivers, and hand builds brand new replica drivers... that are within the same or greater Specs, compared to the originals (admittedly, Ive never tried them, so I dont know for certain). Search for the "Humanspeakers" website, for details. Also, if you choose to get a Kit, and build your own boxes (epi boxes are very simple builds)... make sure you get the "HUMAN K-81 Speaker Kit". He also sells brand new speaker builds, for a higher cost... if you dont want to build them yourself. A few notes... The EPI woofers are special, in that the designer wound them with heavier gauge wire, to automatically filter out the high frequences, without the need for an additional crossover component. I believe the theory being, that it will reduce micro-distortions (which seems to be true, as I hear new things in music, that other speakers cant reveal). The Tweeters are the real show-stopper, however. They are Inverted (1" cones, not domes). They produced the Widest and Deepest 3d Soundstage, that Ive ever experienced. You can stand, sit, or even lay on the floor... almost anywhere in the room, and still get a fantastic stereo 3d holographic image. That said, they are the absolute best, when placed on the floor, and near a wall (better Bass). If you replicate them, Ive heard that the smaller bookshelf EPI 100 cabinet size, seemed to produce a better sounding and punchier Bass response ,compared to the larger cabinet models. I eventually picked up a model that has a Passive Radiator... but due to various current issues, Ive not been able to test them, to see if they are better / worse ..etc. All I can say, is that Im happy with the standard bass response. And with a very little EQ tweaking.. I can get them thumping quite hard and heavy.. maximizing their performance. Now, the EPIs are not the loudest of speakers. They are very Power hungry. But they are more than loud enough to get kicked out of an apartment... and plenty loud enough to satisfy. This is the price you pay, for having superior Detail... and virtually Zero micro-distortions. Thats due to the massive magnets and stronger voice coils... used in the drivers. Stronger magnetics = superior acceleration + superior cone control. The sealed cabinets also provide a superior sounding bass... compared to Ported speakers, which have a very artificial sounding bass response. Due to being sealed... they may sound a little Bass Anemic at lower volume levels. But put them at medium to high volume levels... for them to Sparkle like Diamonds. Thats the nature of Sealed speakers. However, if you want greater bass at lower volume levels.. you can use an EQ to boost the lower frequencies, to easily fix that issue. All speakers, have compromises... as there is no such thing as a Flawless speaker design. IMO, you cant go wrong with this speaker. Especially for the price. Ive heard speakers that cost thousands more, that cant even compare to my EPIs. Not even close. That said... Ive never heard Pauls speakers. Of course, I could never even afford... his cheapest pair.
@@sanonmars Part 2: I realized you asked about "Other" speakers.. I believe the other speakers might have been Phillips Woox speakers. They have very unique passive radiators... for quite amazing bass response... from such tiny speakers. They also had "Decent" high frequency drivers.. but they pale in comparison to the EPI tweeter. Its not even close. Also, likely due to poor crossovers... their high frequency drivers can be way too "HOT" / Bright / un-natural. As such, I likely had to use EQ to lower some levels down a bit... to make them a bit more Natural sounding... and less: "LOOK AT ME!" (annoyingly apparent / shouty). With the EPIs... it pretty much didnt matter where or how you places the speakers... you still got fantastic results... But with these lower spec speakers... you really need good room positions. A lot of experimentations, to get things "Just Right".. and even then, its still nothing like the EPI's level of Vanishing, 3D Holography, and Wide+Deep soundstage. Not even a fraction of the EPIs potentials. The bass on those passives though... gave the EPI woofers lows, a challenge. The bass was more "Excited" on the Woox speakers... BUT... it was nowhere near as "Musically Accurate", compared to the EPIs. Eventually my Woox speakers, suffered Foam Rot. I tried to replace them with other boom box speakers that i had laying around... but none of them sounded right / good. They were all far INFEROR to the original drivers... So... I did some research about them... and it turned out that while most mini-systems use cheap Chinese drivers... the Phillips woox system used much higher quality woofers, that were made in Taiwan. I believe these were specifically designed for Phillips, and had greater Excursion abilities than most woofers. This allowed them to excite the Special Woox passive radiators, without pushing the woofers way too far... which would cause various distortions. The woox passives were also very unique. When taken out of the box... it turned out that there is actually TWO of these special "membranes", spaced about 1 inch apart. Unfortunately, maybe two years after I re-foamed the original woofers... the Woox membranes started to fall apart too... and they were unreplaceable, so I had to scrap them. I believe some woox devices used clear plastic, rather than foam (which would last forever), but I had the foam version, and was totally out of luck. Anyway... the only other driver Ive heard, that sounded kind of holographic... was a unique mini speaker that they sold at Radio Shack, shortly before they went bankrupt. It had a special Di-Pole ribbon tweeter set (lineaum), that was placed on top of the speaker... and fired in a full 360 degrees. It also had a small 4 or 5 inch woofer, on the bottom. The airy details that it was producing, was kind of amazing.. BUT... due to the room, and the 360 degree nature of the driver... I was hearing time delayed "Echos" of the high frequencies. It was incredibly annoying, and totally destroyed the music that was playing through it. I supposed, that if you padded your walls really well... it "might" have been a decent experience. But as it stood, it was too un-natural sounding... and caused too many problems with sound reflection issues. Now.. many Ages ago... I heard an ancient pair of speakers that were built into Coffee Tables... that actually sounded very "Omni-Directional" ...but without the "reflection timing issues", that I mentioned above. I have no idea what they were. I just know they were placed into Octagonal Coffee tables, and the sounds came out of fabric screens, on all sides (it was at a friends parents house). I doubt they were considered them Audiophile grade drivers / speakers... but who knows.
I've done a slightly different test. Choosing a recording I know well where almost the music and voices appear in the middle of the soundstage. I have a reasonably large center channel speaker which only plays for home theater or TV but not on 2 channel music. So I have a friend sitting in the sweet spot and I play the music and ask where the music is coming from. So far 100% of the listeners point to the center channel speaker. I then ask them to walk over to it and listen. The look on their face: What?
@MC-bg7ro what you are hearing is called, the mid-side information. You are correct in that it is phase induced from the song's mix position. It gives that wide feel to the song. Usually to give room for the vocals to be front and center while most everything else is spread out. Thanks.
Lynn in Pennsylvania probably has more than just speaker placement problems. I suspect that she is using low end, mass produced department store electronics, and sub-par recorded content. Not all songs will allow speakers to disappear. I am using 25 year old AR Powered Partner speakers for my desktop computer, being fed directly from my old computer's built-in audio jack, and my speakers disappear. They even make a valiant effort to project the illusion of sound coming from beyond the outer edges of the speakers, and do a remarkably good job with center images. If my ancient hardware can make my speakers disappear, then Lynn likely has low-end everything in her stereo, and plopped her speakers down without any purpose involving sound quality. They are probably not towed in correctly, or angled up / down properly, has echoes in her room, and on and on. But I give Lynn lots of credit for her question. It shows that she wants to get it right, which is far more than nearly everyone else. Lynn seems to care more than my own family members. Most people just don't care. So kudos to Lynn.
Point source like full range or coax speaker are the best way to reach this (plus subwoofer for bottom End to avoid/ reduce doubler effect). And guided waves e.g. horns (low/ no compression) to avoid bouncing at the walls. This will make disapiaring the speaker on the spot..... At lest for my experiance also in small or difficult rooms...
So much depends on the recording. Bad recordings flatten out, are forward, and lose the sense of space and location. No matter how good the speakers and electronics. There is thus the extent this is possible, from absolutely to no way.
Totally agree, I find it hard to play a cd that isn't well engineered. I picked up a Paul Simon anthology in a charity shop and the opening track, Cecilia, sounded flat and totally L/R. The rest of the tracks, so far, brilliant. I can hear every instrument, and it fills the room. They say a good system makes everything sound good- there's your challenge!
A question: Will I get anything out of buying the book "The Loudspeaker" together wit the music if Im not able to move around with the couch and furniture at home. I can move around with speakers, but I cannot move my listening space (sweet spot) as it is setled in a modern living room:) ?
And so the difference between two channel speakers listening and headphone listening. In two channel speakers listening you have the added dimension of the recorded room phasing which gives you that holographic suspended soundstage. In that regard this phasing of the room acoustics is sometimes referred to as the third instrument which is not generally acknowledged. Headphone listening gives you what the Master recording engineer wants you to hear from the right and left outputs with the according voltage levels of the frequencies. In that regard you experience something like a soundstage but it is limited but details may be rich and surprising. There is limited or no phasing that is expressed as well as it is in two channel speakers listening. I prefer two channel speakers listening anyday over headphones, even expensive headphones.
god that’s really Paul Favorite, isn’t it…. …he should add an eleventh book to his series called “If your speakers do not disappear - you simply not deserve it… and them…”
I made some speakers and I took them to the local hifi shop for evaluation. He didn't like them that much and said they weren't the best speakers I brought there. Too much bass and not enough upper medrange. But he did like one thing sbout them. They "disappeared", he said with a smile. They are point source and dipole. Anyway I added some more upper med and more bass. 😂
Humm...not sure I have experienced speakers disappear as Paul describes. In my room (with Nautilus 802, Bryston Model T, Q Acoustics concept 500) the sound that is produced by both speakers is projected behind them (as if coming from the wall 5 feet behind them). The sounds that are only coming from the left speaker only sound on the left and in front of the phantom center, and same thing for sounds coming only from the right speaker being localized right and forward compare to phantom center. Often times those sounds coming from only one speaker will localize the speakers, although sometimes they can extend horizontally well beyond the physical boundaries of the speakers. Also I get sound from right and left of my body's horizontal plane, and sometimes even from behind me. Not an echo or reflection, but like having a surround speaker producing sound behind me.
Indeed, our brain is all we have, and we can never know another's experience. I help the illusion by closing my eyes- in any case I can't stand the number of leds twinkling away I have in my study.
I like when you hear something different you never heard from a recording that you've listened to a thousand times before. Doesn't happen a lot but when it does it's nice👍 I wish they could make speakers that disappear.. the room would be a hell of a lot bigger. 💯🤨
Improved cables, isolation, grounding cable, etc can also do that if the core components are sufficiently resolving. The most noticeable differences for me are hearing very delicate percussion that was previously barely or not at all audible.
@connorduke4619 Yes absolutely 💯 Excellent point 👍 I've learned that the hard way starting with affordable cables and once you do the proper upgrade in the chain is when you get those changes. My DAC and Streamer changed completely once I bought Kimber Kable.
In college I was playing pink floyd the wall album on my genesis physics when on the album there was a knock on the door..my room mate ran downstairs and answered the door.. AT THAT POINT. I knew I had the stereo system setup correctly..haha..yes I still have my genesis physics speakers.im 60 years old.
Some recordings won't make the speakers disappear, however you set things up. Some recordings and the cymbals are way above me, and I have space. You don't need top end gear, I have under £2000 worth of used stuff.
i generallt find it when the phantom centre is strong its easier to imagine the speakers disappear in the room. Happens all the time. but some recordings phantom centre isnt there.
Where is the audio files guide? I inherited an old system and I'm trying to figure out setting it up. You seem to be of the age 🙂to know this equipment which is working FINE, been sitting around.. Hafler amp from the kit , snell speakers, denon pre amp. No turntable yet, looking at the new technics models. Most of the rooms in our home have no doors so I'm putting this in the master bedroom (my parents room)...My uncle (Channel D ) put this system together for my aunt a long time ago....
Think of a flat panel TV. The picture comes from individual Red, Green and Blue pixels just like in stereo the sounds come from two different "pixels" locations. When done properly the 3 pixels merge into one combined pixel in your brain. And all of the individual pixels merge into one continuous image. If the pixels are too big or you are too close, ... you see individual pixels instead. Just like when the two speakers are designed and installed properly and your brain thinks what it hears does not come from two individual spots, but individual sources between them. When done wrong, the sounds can be identified as coming from the speakers themselves.
People have a lot of trouble with this concept that a speaker can behave as a non point source when using multichannel. Even early stereo was about putting the horn on one side. The voice on one side. This might be why people misunderstand how stereo imaging and sound stage is more than “two speakers” or Atmos is not about the speakers at all! I saw a RUclips with the world's top Atmos mixers discussing it and, during the pandemic, some of them who normally worked in high end mixing studios, cobbled together what ever speakers they had at home, and made an Atmos studio in their living room (to make a living). So some Atmos mixes by a top record label were made in a living room with what ever old speakers the mixer had at home. Because, the speaker is not important for what Atmos (or stereo) does as much when mixing. Also as evidenced by the unending popularity of using a terrible Yamaha speaker for so long in mixing and editing suites. You want it to sound good on a shytee system. If it a mixer do that, it can sound good on a much better system.
Beverly Sills Plaisir D’Amour Originally Recorded in 1961 is Just Fantastic Then Rereleased Sometime in 1997 The Two Recordings and Mixes are Night and Day I Enjoy Them Both Yet When I Hear The Rerelease on Any Other System I Can Tell & Hear The Difference….! I Do Not Have One Sound System of Speakers or Pre Amplifiers or Power Amplifiers I Can Mix and Match a Endless Number of Combinations of Speakers 🔊 and Amplifiers 😮 ….In The Comments Section Someone Wrote That He Has Heard a Piece of Music 🎶 and He Listened To a Different System and Heard Something Extra That He Didn’t Hear Before….Now We Are Talking….This Guy Also Mentioned That It Doesn’t Happen Much Yet When it Does He Is Impressed This is Why I Constantly Mix and Match Various Different Sound Systems and Before You Know It Certain Combinations Bring Out Those Special Sounds That Are Buried Deep In a Vinyl Groove That Just Needs a Little Help To Come Out …..I Could Never Have Just One Complete Sound System By One Manufacturer That Will Never Do I Create Combinations and It’s Those Combinations That Can Make The Music 🎶 Just Pop Then and Only Then We Can Talk About Disappearing Speakers 🔊 You See Paul Has a Obligation to Push and Sell His Gear ⚙️ Yet I Mix and Match So You Can Explore The Endless Possibilities of Music 🎶 Listening …..And Don’t Paint Yourself in a Corner ….My Old Lady Just Walked in With a Rhubarb Pie 🥧 From Our Amish Neighbor 3 Miles Up The Road I Got The Fire Going and The Dogs 🐕 Are Bouncing Around and Am Going To Have a Big Generous Slice Of Rhubarb Pie No Disappearing Speakers in My House In Fact I Got More Speakers 🔊 and Amplifiers Than Most Good Night 🌙💤 Au Re Voir
I used to have 2 cheap plastic speakers on my desk, playing straight from the pc output jack - absolutely nothing special. The speakers COMPLETELY disappeared - I could look right at them and not hear the sound coming from them - it was all around them. I'm convinced 'disappearing' is 100% placement, with nothing to do with the gear.
The first time MY loudspeakers disappeared was when i heard a sharp fracturing sound from the window, some heavy cat-like shuffling on the floor through the upstairs, some muffled not very favorable mentioning of Jesus, and just like that, poof, gone.
Hi Paul, would you say there is a difference between valve and solid state equipment with regard to your speaker setup. Had a few friends in the Netherlands using OTL Valve stages with High End gear and ithe soundstage was always as you described here. I found solid state more challenging to find similar results. Thanks.
FWIW, I would agree with your observation. For most of my life I used solid state and never experienced it. Now I use OTL triode monoblocs and the illusion is palpable. I can walk around the room and it is always a 3d image well behind the plane of the speakers. I think the illusion gets more palpable as the reproduction of low level information becomes clearer. The OTL triode amps are masters at this and a digital source with good clocks helps define accurate phase which defines the illusion.
In this ERA... ridiculous compression in 90% of popular music. High Fidelity of what? Micro phones and instruments distance is for a classical orchestra.
Speakers disappear when you've locked in the phantom centre image perfectly, and the sound engineer in the recording studio has put all of the instruments dead centre, without panning anything either left or right. Simple!
In other words in monophonic playback. That's not the same effect. In Mono all the sound is centered between the speakers, not spread out across them as it should be for a decent stereo recording. Hearing a rhythm instrument half way between center and left or a string section spanning center to right is a whole different experience.
@@Douglas_Blake There's no difference between mono playback and stereo playback, if panning instruments (i.e. left or right) isn't used by the sound engineer on the mixing console in a stereo recording. Speakers will never "disappear" during playback, if the engineer pans an instrument "fully" to either the left or right channel in the studio recording .... it's impossible!
@@brentonratcliffe7089 Yet, strangely enough, I listen to music and watch movies all the time with no sense at all that I'm listening to 2 speakers. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you check your speaker setup, especially make sure they're working in phase...
@ The reason you cannot localize where the sound is coming from (i.e. even if instruments are panned fully to one side or the other) is because you're sitting a long way away from your speakers and you're hearing as much of the room reflections [in the music/movie presentation] as you are the direct sound.
The first thing to understand is that the left-right placement of sounds in your recordings has nothing to do with your stereo. There are no parts in a stereo that can enhance, change or create it. "Soundstage" as it is called, is burned into your recordings themselves, in the mixing and mastering phases. If you look at a recording console or DAW you will find "Pan" controls... that's how it's done. So the first thing you need is recordings with proper "soundstage". Many of today's highly compressed and limited recordings simply do not produce the full effect. In fact many of them are produced for monophonic bluetooth speakers or headphones... not for stereo speakers. To get really outstanding soundstage you need to go back to the 70s and 80s music. If you're looking for a reference, perhaps the best mixed recording of all time is "Sultans of Swing" by Dire Straits. While there is nothing in your home system that manipulates this effect, there are plenty of ways to sabotage it. Speaker placement is #1 on that list. If you do not have your speakers the same distance from your listening position, the effect will be reduced significantly. (By "same distance" I mean within 1/4 inch, btw). As Paul pointed out toe-in also has an impact, getting this identical for both speakers will also help. Now once you have the perfect "triangle" (it does not need to be "equilateral", just the same on both sides of center) you should be able to put on a recording center yourself at your listening position and hear the singer or lead instruments directly in front of you. Next close your eyes listen carefully and point at the speakers. If all is working well, when you open your eyes, you will find yourself pointing into space well outside of your speakers. That's the vanishing effect. I've heard this effect on everything from $100 department store stereos all the way up to $100,000 high end setups. I've also seen it fail on that same range of equipment because of poor speaker placement, off-center listening positions and room effects. But when it works it's pretty darned amazing.
Afterthought .... If you want to see a soundstage vanish, just hook your speakers up out of phase ... nothing in the middle everything directly from the speakers.
It's been my experience that one aspect of speaker placement for a disappearing soundstage involves moving them a good distance off the back wall. Hard to do in a living room where living takes place. Easier to achieve within a dedicated listening space where speakers can be 20 to 36 inches into the room. High end audio stores seem to stick to this placement strategy because it's one of many key elements for making a "sweet spot" for listening. For a speaker to shine sitting 3 inches from a back walk seems very difficult.
@@eddents Agreed ... shared spaces do pose some limitations on good soundstage. My speakers are about 6 inches from the front wall in my living room. I get the proper left-right sound stage, but not much depth. It's a compromise one makes to also enjoy the room for other uses. Some tricks to try ... use port plugs to compensate for wall gain, try crossing speaker toe-in in front of you, soften the front wall behind your speakers with drapes or pe-foam padded wallpapers, try setting up on the long wall of the room, etc.
@@eddentsthis is true for most speakers. I have two sets of speakers that I rotate in and out of my dedicated room, the apogees I own are placed 82" into the room and they image great, the Polk sda2a I own are placed 6" into the room they image great also. Yet they both image a little differently. I don't know why more manufacturers don't design speakers to be placed close to the wall, it can be done with great results.
No such thing. Ignorant people refer to it as soundstage. It's actually projection. You're projecting the sound past you so it doesn't appear to come from the speakers. My technology uses a single tower to produce perfect stereo. The effect is being on the stage with a band or orchestra. With 2 speakers and 2 sound wave sources. Sound wave overlap becomes a problem. Forming destructive waves. Toeing of speakers is a vain attempt to correct this. This only minimizes destructive wave overlap. Old technology old terminology. And absolutely no knowledge Of sound wave behavior. 🧏♂️
@@jimmiedean8035 Thanks. Would you be willing to share with me the basis of your SST technology principals? I am currently working on exactly this project and would love to know what you're doing.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
At a little get together at my house once, a guest had taken her plate over to the sweet spot on the couch to eat. I walked over and she looked at me kind of wide eyed and asked "Where are the other speakers?"
"Just those" i replied, pointing.
"But the sound is coming from--"
"Yeah"
This made me so happy.
It was a revelation when speakers in my room first disappeared. I had made a tweak to some very modest consumer speakers and pretty much by accident the illusion appeared and the speakers disappeared from the sound stage.
Now, it is so pronounced that the sound not only comes from behind the speakers, it has caused the wall behind the speakers to disappear as a lot of the sound is well behind the wall. I'm used to it now, but it is a marvel of audio illusion.
What did you do?
@@xaviermontalban717 This is a little controversial but I'll just put it out there. The speakers were some original Boston Acoustics A100s. I had ripped out the crossover and put in a simple first order using a Blackgate cap so they were getting pretty transparent but likely not real flat in frequency response. The change that did it was a technique advocated by a guy on DIYAUDIO he called EnABl. Basically stiffening the paper cones and then painting a pattern on them that manages edge effects. Same was also done to the cabinets and out of no where they disappeared for the first time.
It was one of those audio snake oil things you don't expect to do anything so when it did this it was pretty impactful.
Since then I have far better everything and the disappearing act is downright pervasive.
Correct loudspeaker setup well done is the start of the voyage to music Nirvana!😎
I guess the next step is to see the singer in front of you?
True. But take care of room acoustic first
The first time I heard disappearing speakers was when a friend of mine bought a pair of Bose 901 direct / reflecting speakers back in the 70s. At that time I had never heard of Bose. He invited me over and asked me if I could tell where the music was coming from and I honestly couldn't. I could see the speakers but it sounded like the music was coming from everywhere. They really surprised me and they sounded great.
It´s like seeing with both eyes, each one has its own "picture" and it is combined in the brain to a 3D image. The same happens with a good setup stereo sound.
Yet to hear a 3D box 📦 system
Perfect analogy.
Thank you so much Paul for answering my question today. I hope someday to be able to experience what you are describing. Until then I will continue to enjoy listening to music in conjunction with movie viewing with surround sound in my multipurpose space called a living room. It does not allow me to place speakers optimally as I am sure many people encounter as they don’t have a listening room dedicated to audio instead have a room where they also listen to audio/music. Again thanks for highlighting and answering my question!
I prefer listening in the dark and forgetting about the hifi. It makes it easier for me to forget speaker position.
Thankyou for this. I have been achieving this illusion of over 25 years. As you say getting the ideal speaker placement and getting the best out of the electronics and BINGO you get the illusion of the sound coming not from the speakers. Also you will get movement of the performers moving around within the soundstage.
It's all about timing and phase of the sound. As some say below not every recording disappears and not every recording to the same degree. But good electronics and speakers that reproduce the sound in the correct phase and time of the sound information that is similar and different from each speaker is perceived by the ears to occur at certain points in space between and sometimes beyond the speakers. Even mono recordings can disappear but then you have the entire sound coming out of the middle and not much to the sides or front to back. Keep in mind that even with the best system sometimes part of the music floats in space while some of it comes out of the speaker.
This can also depend on the recording, especially old mixes.
And drivers too, even on the most holographic speakers, a tweeter or mid needing serviced can highlight a location.
But the biggest thing is also the room, I remember two rooms, where we had a great layout and space, Kef 105.4 and 107 simply imaged in an uncanny manner, well outside and even with th eright tracks sound would appear like some sort of surround.
This was also a great experience with Martin Logan CLZ II. The way an image could be steered around a room. I remember something similar with PMC BB5, and a mid in need of servicing would occasionally reveal itself, noting the speaker, and and old tweeter set with dried up ferrofluid, highlighting location at times.
But getting those speakers to disappear is the highlight of a set up, along with bass performance. Tape all over the floor, leaning left and right, back and forward. So much fun.
I paid a lot of money for my speakers. Darned if I let em disappear!!!
If they dont vanish, then you paid too much
😅
I did not know that PS Audio now makes Mini washing machines!
Just kidding. Nice sub!
Thank you Paul!
It's a strange experience when you look at a speaker knowing the sound is coming from it but the sound just doesn't appear to be doing that.
Almost every pair of speakers can "disappear". It's more about a pleacement than speakers itself. But some of them are better than others.
The way this happens is that the reverberations in the listening room create micro time delays causing phase shifts at certain frequencies that when sufficient dislocate the apparent position of the speaker in relation to the listener. Speaker position , listening position and room reflection are rquired ...its like having a room with lots of mirrors seems larger than it is .... its fun changing your listening position as you get a different experience every time .. all of them are "correct" plus unique spacial information .
Lynn. If you ever find yourself in IA god forbid, I'd be happy to give you a demo. It's wild the first time you sit in front of a system and hear laser focused elements that you know are coming from a pair of speakers that are totally outside that stage. Even if it's not a permanent possibility in your system, at least Google and implement the Cardas rectangular room speaker placement calculation. Chances are you'll hear exactly what you asked about.
Placement from the front wall is key to this. My speakers are completely gone. When I turn my volume up it’s like I’m turning up the entire room-there’s no localization of sound
What also helps is standmount rather than floorstander and centre of tweeter and midwoofer being placed close to each other. My Dynaudio Evoke 10s have this and are supported by good to excellent electronics. The result is, even when the speakers are not optimally placed they STILL disappear.
I have a pair of great sounding floorstanders that are 42 in. Tall and 12 in. Wide. When I had them placed in the proper audio triangle, they were only 5 feet from my listening position. They did disappear with the properly recorded music, but only in the dark, because they were in my face and I couldn’t ignore them unless I kept my eyes closed. I recently moved them two feet back. They are now 24 inches from the front wall and not in my face. They now disappear in the light of day. It’s a combination of proper setup and psycho acoustics.
It’s mostly the recording, honestly. A good recording and the cheapest bookshelf speakers you can find can essentially disappear. But even on the best setup in the world, if the recording wants you to, you can hear the speaker locations.
12" woofer are the best in my judgement. I don't use a Sub Woofer. I have too many speakers for sure. Not too many want to have 20 floor speakers in the listening room. When I set myself in the right spot and close my eyes you can hear one side or the other and individual musicians. Very cool and that to me is "speaker disappearing".
Proper placement room treatment will help achieve the goal of speaker unity to achieve the goal of speakers disappearing. Also need gear that can run system adequately as well.
The AI Overview "appears" to put this issue into perspective: : Speakers "disappear" when the soundstage they create is so well-defined and immersive that the listener can't pinpoint the exact location of the sound source, making it seem like the sound is coming from everywhere in the room, rather than just the speaker itself; this is achieved through careful speaker placement, room acoustics, and speaker design that produces a wide, even sound dispersion, particularly when using multiple speakers to create a surround sound effect.
Key points about "disappearing speakers":
Soundstage Imaging:
The most important factor is creating a wide and deep soundstage where the sound appears to come from a space behind and between the speakers, not just directly from them.
Speaker Placement:
Positioning speakers at the right angles and distance apart, often "toeing them in" slightly to direct sound towards the listener, can significantly impact soundstage creation.
Off-Axis Response:
High-quality speakers with good off-axis response ensure sound quality remains consistent even when listening slightly off-center from the speaker.
Room Acoustics:
Treating the room with sound-absorbing materials can help to diffuse sound reflections and improve the overall sound quality.
Speaker Design:
Some speaker designs are specifically engineered to create a more diffuse sound field, contributing to the "disappearing" effect.
The end result is that all the speaker disappearing rhetoric, tending to border on hyperbole when agenda based, is obsolete.
When a speaker vanishes... its basically that the audio fills the room, "Holographically" ...Instead of seeming to come from any one "point source".
Ive owned like 30 pairs of speakers... and only ONE of those speakers was able to Vanish. When I experienced it, I was totally blown away.
In fact, I then placed these smaller Audiophile Bookshelf Sized Speakers, on top of some very large Advents (full sized speaker towers)... and asked my friend to tell me which speakers he thought were playing. He sat about 8ft away, on the couch. I popped on some music... and he quickly pointed to the Large Advents. I chuckled... and said, Nope!. Then I toggled the Advents on... to reveal how different they sounded. His mind was blown.
Partially, because those small speakers created some very serious Bass, for their Size. But also, because you couldnt actually tell that the sounds were coming from those speakers. The music is simply hovering in the middle of the air... in 3d space, without a Point Source. Its pure Magic.
Now... sometimes Ive gotten some cheaper speakers to have a much lesser degree of being noticeable. Especially if you EQ them, to be less offensive (for example... if the tweeters are too "HOT", you can dial them down to the point where they are present, but not offensively shouting "Im Here!"). But even with the best placement.. and the EQ... you often still get moments where your attention is drawn to the actual Drivers / Speakers.
This is big issue with Non-Audiophile grade drivers. Unbalanced levels.. with overly "HOT" output, slightly "colored" sounds, slightly artificial sounding sounds, micro-distortions, and lack of a wide and deep "3d Soundstage" (When the intended 3D Image gets severely flattened, due to micro-distortions. This seem to be especially true, of speakers that use Horns).
Certain Recordings, are also part of the equation. Not all music is engineered, to create a good soundstage. Most especially older recordings (especially pre-70s.. and even some 70s songs)
Which are the speakers that disappeared? Also other speakers which less fisappeared, any well known or which type HF drivers?
@@sanonmars The speakers I have are EPI 100v speakers. EPI was eventually bought out by Genesis Physics. Genesis Physics continued to use the same Epic drivers, in most of their speakers.
If you seek out a pair, make sure they have all original drivers. The woofer is easy to identify, as it has a smaller dust cap diameter than most modern woofers.
You also want to make sure you have the "Upgraded" tweeter version. The older version is mounted to a Fiber-Board backing. The newer tweeter versions, are mounted to a plastic backing bezel. The newer models, have much greater sound clarity and dynamics.
That said.. you can also buy replacement parts, or a full build kit... from a man that used to work at that company. He repairs old drivers, and hand builds brand new replica drivers... that are within the same or greater Specs, compared to the originals (admittedly, Ive never tried them, so I dont know for certain). Search for the "Humanspeakers" website, for details.
Also, if you choose to get a Kit, and build your own boxes (epi boxes are very simple builds)... make sure you get the "HUMAN K-81 Speaker Kit".
He also sells brand new speaker builds, for a higher cost... if you dont want to build them yourself.
A few notes...
The EPI woofers are special, in that the designer wound them with heavier gauge wire, to automatically filter out the high frequences, without the need for an additional crossover component. I believe the theory being, that it will reduce micro-distortions (which seems to be true, as I hear new things in music, that other speakers cant reveal).
The Tweeters are the real show-stopper, however. They are Inverted (1" cones, not domes). They produced the Widest and Deepest 3d Soundstage, that Ive ever experienced.
You can stand, sit, or even lay on the floor... almost anywhere in the room, and still get a fantastic stereo 3d holographic image.
That said, they are the absolute best, when placed on the floor, and near a wall (better Bass).
If you replicate them, Ive heard that the smaller bookshelf EPI 100 cabinet size, seemed to produce a better sounding and punchier Bass response ,compared to the larger cabinet models.
I eventually picked up a model that has a Passive Radiator... but due to various current issues, Ive not been able to test them, to see if they are better / worse ..etc.
All I can say, is that Im happy with the standard bass response. And with a very little EQ tweaking.. I can get them thumping quite hard and heavy.. maximizing their performance.
Now, the EPIs are not the loudest of speakers. They are very Power hungry. But they are more than loud enough to get kicked out of an apartment... and plenty loud enough to satisfy. This is the price you pay, for having superior Detail... and virtually Zero micro-distortions.
Thats due to the massive magnets and stronger voice coils... used in the drivers. Stronger magnetics = superior acceleration + superior cone control.
The sealed cabinets also provide a superior sounding bass... compared to Ported speakers, which have a very artificial sounding bass response.
Due to being sealed... they may sound a little Bass Anemic at lower volume levels. But put them at medium to high volume levels... for them to Sparkle like Diamonds. Thats the nature of Sealed speakers. However, if you want greater bass at lower volume levels.. you can use an EQ to boost the lower frequencies, to easily fix that issue.
All speakers, have compromises... as there is no such thing as a Flawless speaker design. IMO, you cant go wrong with this speaker. Especially for the price.
Ive heard speakers that cost thousands more, that cant even compare to my EPIs. Not even close.
That said... Ive never heard Pauls speakers. Of course, I could never even afford... his cheapest pair.
@@sanonmars Part 2: I realized you asked about "Other" speakers..
I believe the other speakers might have been Phillips Woox speakers. They have very unique passive radiators... for quite amazing bass response... from such tiny speakers.
They also had "Decent" high frequency drivers.. but they pale in comparison to the EPI tweeter. Its not even close.
Also, likely due to poor crossovers... their high frequency drivers can be way too "HOT" / Bright / un-natural. As such, I likely had to use EQ to lower some levels down a bit... to make them a bit more Natural sounding... and less: "LOOK AT ME!" (annoyingly apparent / shouty).
With the EPIs... it pretty much didnt matter where or how you places the speakers... you still got fantastic results... But with these lower spec speakers... you really need good room positions. A lot of experimentations, to get things "Just Right".. and even then, its still nothing like the EPI's level of Vanishing, 3D Holography, and Wide+Deep soundstage. Not even a fraction of the EPIs potentials.
The bass on those passives though... gave the EPI woofers lows, a challenge. The bass was more "Excited" on the Woox speakers... BUT... it was nowhere near as "Musically Accurate", compared to the EPIs.
Eventually my Woox speakers, suffered Foam Rot. I tried to replace them with other boom box speakers that i had laying around... but none of them sounded right / good. They were all far INFEROR to the original drivers...
So... I did some research about them... and it turned out that while most mini-systems use cheap Chinese drivers... the Phillips woox system used much higher quality woofers, that were made in Taiwan. I believe these were specifically designed for Phillips, and had greater Excursion abilities than most woofers. This allowed them to excite the Special Woox passive radiators, without pushing the woofers way too far... which would cause various distortions.
The woox passives were also very unique. When taken out of the box... it turned out that there is actually TWO of these special "membranes", spaced about 1 inch apart.
Unfortunately, maybe two years after I re-foamed the original woofers... the Woox membranes started to fall apart too... and they were unreplaceable, so I had to scrap them.
I believe some woox devices used clear plastic, rather than foam (which would last forever), but I had the foam version, and was totally out of luck.
Anyway... the only other driver Ive heard, that sounded kind of holographic... was a unique mini speaker that they sold at Radio Shack, shortly before they went bankrupt.
It had a special Di-Pole ribbon tweeter set (lineaum), that was placed on top of the speaker... and fired in a full 360 degrees. It also had a small 4 or 5 inch woofer, on the bottom.
The airy details that it was producing, was kind of amazing.. BUT... due to the room, and the 360 degree nature of the driver... I was hearing time delayed "Echos" of the high frequencies. It was incredibly annoying, and totally destroyed the music that was playing through it.
I supposed, that if you padded your walls really well... it "might" have been a decent experience. But as it stood, it was too un-natural sounding... and caused too many problems with sound reflection issues.
Now.. many Ages ago... I heard an ancient pair of speakers that were built into Coffee Tables... that actually sounded very "Omni-Directional" ...but without the "reflection timing issues", that I mentioned above. I have no idea what they were. I just know they were placed into Octagonal Coffee tables, and the sounds came out of fabric screens, on all sides (it was at a friends parents house). I doubt they were considered them Audiophile grade drivers / speakers... but who knows.
I've done a slightly different test. Choosing a recording I know well where almost the music and voices appear in the middle of the soundstage. I have a reasonably large center channel speaker which only plays for home theater or TV but not on 2 channel music. So I have a friend sitting in the sweet spot and I play the music and ask where the music is coming from. So far 100% of the listeners point to the center channel speaker. I then ask them to walk over to it and listen. The look on their face: What?
I'm always surprised that I can hear sound sources to the right of the right speaker and to the left of the left speaker.
@MC-bg7ro what you are hearing is called, the mid-side information. You are correct in that it is phase induced from the song's mix position. It gives that wide feel to the song. Usually to give room for the vocals to be front and center while most everything else is spread out.
Thanks.
Lynn in Pennsylvania probably has more than just speaker placement problems.
I suspect that she is using low end, mass produced department store electronics, and sub-par recorded content. Not all songs will allow speakers to disappear.
I am using 25 year old AR Powered Partner speakers for my desktop computer, being fed directly from my old computer's built-in audio jack, and my speakers disappear. They even make a valiant effort to project the illusion of sound coming from beyond the outer edges of the speakers, and do a remarkably good job with center images.
If my ancient hardware can make my speakers disappear, then Lynn likely has low-end everything in her stereo, and plopped her speakers down without any purpose involving sound quality. They are probably not towed in correctly, or angled up / down properly, has echoes in her room, and on and on.
But I give Lynn lots of credit for her question. It shows that she wants to get it right, which is far more than nearly everyone else. Lynn seems to care more than my own family members. Most people just don't care. So kudos to Lynn.
Point source like full range or coax speaker are the best way to reach this (plus subwoofer for bottom End to avoid/ reduce doubler effect). And guided waves e.g. horns (low/ no compression) to avoid bouncing at the walls.
This will make disapiaring the speaker on the spot..... At lest for my experiance also in small or difficult rooms...
Agreed, and also tweeter centre close to midwoofer centre will do the job as well such as Dynaudio Evoke 10.
Better call that new sub “the esky.
Does your Audiophiles Guide cover Magnepan speakers? I have a pair of LRS+ and I'm always looking for a way to improve my soundstage
So much depends on the recording. Bad recordings flatten out, are forward, and lose the sense of space and location. No matter how good the speakers and electronics. There is thus the extent this is possible, from absolutely to no way.
Totally agree, I find it hard to play a cd that isn't well engineered. I picked up a Paul Simon anthology in a charity shop and the opening track, Cecilia, sounded flat and totally L/R. The rest of the tracks, so far, brilliant. I can hear every instrument, and it fills the room. They say a good system makes everything sound good- there's your challenge!
A question: Will I get anything out of buying the book "The Loudspeaker" together wit the music if Im not able to move around with the couch and furniture at home. I can move around with speakers, but I cannot move my listening space (sweet spot) as it is setled in a modern living room:) ?
And so the difference between two channel speakers listening and headphone listening. In two channel speakers listening you have the added dimension of the recorded room phasing which gives you that holographic suspended soundstage. In that regard this phasing of the room acoustics is sometimes referred to as the third instrument which is not generally acknowledged. Headphone listening gives you what the Master recording engineer wants you to hear from the right and left outputs with the according voltage levels of the frequencies. In that regard you experience something like a soundstage but it is limited but details may be rich and surprising. There is limited or no phasing that is expressed as well as it is in two channel speakers listening. I prefer two channel speakers listening anyday over headphones, even expensive headphones.
god that’s really Paul Favorite, isn’t it…. …he should add an eleventh book to his series called “If your speakers do not disappear - you simply not deserve it… and them…”
I just told my wife what I paid for them, and they suddenly disappeared
I made some speakers and I took them to the local hifi shop for evaluation. He didn't like them that much and said they weren't the best speakers I brought there. Too much bass and not enough upper medrange. But he did like one thing sbout them. They "disappeared", he said with a smile. They are point source and dipole. Anyway I added some more upper med and more bass. 😂
Humm...not sure I have experienced speakers disappear as Paul describes. In my room (with Nautilus 802, Bryston Model T, Q Acoustics concept 500) the sound that is produced by both speakers is projected behind them (as if coming from the wall 5 feet behind them). The sounds that are only coming from the left speaker only sound on the left and in front of the phantom center, and same thing for sounds coming only from the right speaker being localized right and forward compare to phantom center. Often times those sounds coming from only one speaker will localize the speakers, although sometimes they can extend horizontally well beyond the physical boundaries of the speakers. Also I get sound from right and left of my body's horizontal plane, and sometimes even from behind me. Not an echo or reflection, but like having a surround speaker producing sound behind me.
Volume on this is a bit low? Ironically?
our brain is an important component of the system, it creates the illusion
It's not only important it is the only component that creates the illusion of 3D stereo 😊
@@adotopp1865 Also ones ears. Similar to ones vision, Peoples left and right ears have different peaks and troughs...Sometimes radically so.
@@adotopp1865 The only component?
Indeed, our brain is all we have, and we can never know another's experience. I help the illusion by closing my eyes- in any case I can't stand the number of leds twinkling away I have in my study.
@@barlow2976 Well said...Who is ANYONE to tell someone else what THAT person is hearing..
my openbaffel do the same you can not point them out jes you can gess the speaker side but you don't hear them att all it's amazing to have that
I like when you hear something different you never heard from a recording that you've listened to a thousand times before. Doesn't happen a lot but when it does it's nice👍 I wish they could make speakers that disappear.. the room would be a hell of a lot bigger. 💯🤨
Improved cables, isolation, grounding cable, etc can also do that if the core components are sufficiently resolving. The most noticeable differences for me are hearing very delicate percussion that was previously barely or not at all audible.
@connorduke4619 Yes absolutely 💯 Excellent point 👍 I've learned that the hard way starting with affordable cables and once you do the proper upgrade in the chain is when you get those changes. My DAC and Streamer changed completely once I bought Kimber Kable.
In college I was playing pink floyd the wall album on my genesis physics when on the album there was a knock on the door..my room mate ran downstairs and answered the door.. AT THAT POINT. I knew I had the stereo system setup correctly..haha..yes I still have my genesis physics speakers.im 60 years old.
Some recordings won't make the speakers disappear, however you set things up. Some recordings and the cymbals are way above me, and I have space. You don't need top end gear, I have under £2000 worth of used stuff.
i generallt find it when the phantom centre is strong its easier to imagine the speakers disappear in the room. Happens all the time. but some recordings phantom centre isnt there.
Speaking of subs, mine was going crazy while watching this video! Kind of like wind noise but obviously you were indoors.
Where is the audio files guide? I inherited an old system and I'm trying to figure out setting it up. You seem to be of the age 🙂to know this equipment which is working FINE, been sitting around.. Hafler amp from the kit , snell speakers, denon pre amp. No turntable yet, looking at the new technics models. Most of the rooms in our home have no doors so I'm putting this in the master bedroom (my parents room)...My uncle (Channel D ) put this system together for my aunt a long time ago....
I had a set of speakers disappear once, they took the damn TV too!!
I have met one person who is unable to perceive audio direction. It is difficult to understand how that can be, but it's the case.
Obviously a faulty hearing system.
@adotopp1865 indeed, I was surprised, but it's not that uncommon.
The Hallographic principle.
it must have been in 1974 i discovered speakers dissapearing for the first time. placement is everything.
And so is the recording.
Think of a flat panel TV. The picture comes from individual Red, Green and Blue pixels just like in stereo the sounds come from two different "pixels" locations. When done properly the 3 pixels merge into one combined pixel in your brain. And all of the individual pixels merge into one continuous image. If the pixels are too big or you are too close, ... you see individual pixels instead. Just like when the two speakers are designed and installed properly and your brain thinks what it hears does not come from two individual spots, but individual sources between them. When done wrong, the sounds can be identified as coming from the speakers themselves.
@MC-bg7ro It's actually called "tri-color stimulus". But thanks for trying.
People have a lot of trouble with this concept that a speaker can behave as a non point source when using multichannel. Even early stereo was about putting the horn on one side. The voice on one side. This might be why people misunderstand how stereo imaging and sound stage is more than “two speakers” or Atmos is not about the speakers at all! I saw a RUclips with the world's top Atmos mixers discussing it and, during the pandemic, some of them who normally worked in high end mixing studios, cobbled together what ever speakers they had at home, and made an Atmos studio in their living room (to make a living). So some Atmos mixes by a top record label were made in a living room with what ever old speakers the mixer had at home. Because, the speaker is not important for what Atmos (or stereo) does as much when mixing. Also as evidenced by the unending popularity of using a terrible Yamaha speaker for so long in mixing and editing suites. You want it to sound good on a shytee system. If it a mixer do that, it can sound good on a much better system.
Beverly Sills
Plaisir D’Amour Originally
Recorded in 1961 is
Just Fantastic
Then Rereleased Sometime in 1997
The Two Recordings and
Mixes are Night and Day
I Enjoy Them Both
Yet When I Hear
The Rerelease on Any Other System I Can Tell & Hear
The Difference….!
I Do Not Have One Sound System of
Speakers or Pre Amplifiers or Power Amplifiers I Can Mix and
Match a Endless Number of Combinations of
Speakers 🔊 and Amplifiers 😮
….In The Comments Section Someone Wrote That
He Has Heard a Piece of Music 🎶 and He Listened To a Different System and Heard Something Extra That He Didn’t Hear Before….Now We Are Talking….This Guy Also Mentioned That It Doesn’t Happen Much Yet When it
Does He Is Impressed
This is Why I Constantly Mix and Match Various Different Sound
Systems and Before You Know It Certain Combinations Bring Out
Those Special Sounds That Are Buried Deep In a Vinyl Groove That Just Needs a Little Help To Come Out
…..I Could Never Have Just One Complete Sound System By One Manufacturer That Will Never Do
I Create Combinations and It’s Those Combinations That Can Make The Music 🎶 Just
Pop
Then and Only Then We Can Talk About
Disappearing Speakers 🔊
You See Paul Has a
Obligation to Push and Sell His Gear ⚙️
Yet I Mix and Match
So You Can Explore
The Endless Possibilities of Music 🎶 Listening
…..And Don’t Paint Yourself in a Corner
….My Old Lady Just Walked in With a
Rhubarb Pie 🥧
From Our Amish Neighbor
3 Miles Up The Road
I Got The Fire Going and The Dogs 🐕 Are Bouncing Around
and Am Going To Have a
Big Generous Slice Of
Rhubarb Pie
No Disappearing Speakers in My House
In Fact I Got More Speakers 🔊 and Amplifiers Than Most
Good Night 🌙💤
Au Re Voir
Just listened to the Sills recording, so beautiful. She has a magnificent voice & the recording itself is fine.
Listen while wearing a VR with a view of a live stage.
I used to have 2 cheap plastic speakers on my desk, playing straight from the pc output jack - absolutely nothing special.
The speakers COMPLETELY disappeared - I could look right at them and not hear the sound coming from them - it was all around them.
I'm convinced 'disappearing' is 100% placement, with nothing to do with the gear.
"Trust me Bro".... The audiophiles explanation for just about everything 😂
Always lock your car.
How can I buy the audiophiles guide? I can’t find it on the PS audio website
The first time MY loudspeakers disappeared was when i heard a sharp fracturing sound from the window, some heavy cat-like shuffling on the floor through the upstairs, some muffled not very favorable mentioning of Jesus, and just like that, poof, gone.
My god London Bridge is falling down😂
????
im upgraded my power supplys, clock, etc, the speakers disappeared.With good Ac, have buble efect.
Hi Paul, would you say there is a difference between valve and solid state equipment with regard to your speaker setup. Had a few friends
in the Netherlands using OTL Valve stages with High End gear and ithe soundstage was always as you described here. I found solid
state more challenging to find similar results. Thanks.
FWIW, I would agree with your observation. For most of my life I used solid state and never experienced it. Now I use OTL triode monoblocs and the illusion is palpable. I can walk around the room and it is always a 3d image well behind the plane of the speakers. I think the illusion gets more palpable as the reproduction of low level information becomes clearer. The OTL triode amps are masters at this and a digital source with good clocks helps define accurate phase which defines the illusion.
Is the problem youth gangs marauding about, casing the joint?
Another infomercial. Lol😂
In this ERA... ridiculous compression in 90% of popular music. High Fidelity of what? Micro phones and instruments distance is for a classical orchestra.
Me: How loudspeakers disappear?
AI: If they get stolen.
LOL!
Speakers disappear when you've locked in the phantom centre image perfectly, and the sound engineer in the recording studio has put all of the instruments dead centre, without panning anything either left or right. Simple!
In other words in monophonic playback.
That's not the same effect. In Mono all the sound is centered between the speakers, not spread out across them as it should be for a decent stereo recording. Hearing a rhythm instrument half way between center and left or a string section spanning center to right is a whole different experience.
@@Douglas_Blake There's no difference between mono playback and stereo playback, if panning instruments (i.e. left or right) isn't used by the sound engineer on the mixing console in a stereo recording. Speakers will never "disappear" during playback, if the engineer pans an instrument "fully" to either the left or right channel in the studio recording .... it's impossible!
@@brentonratcliffe7089
Yet, strangely enough, I listen to music and watch movies all the time with no sense at all that I'm listening to 2 speakers.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you check your speaker setup, especially make sure they're working in phase...
@ The reason you cannot localize where the sound is coming from (i.e. even if instruments are panned fully to one side or the other) is because you're sitting a long way away from your speakers and you're hearing as much of the room reflections [in the music/movie presentation] as you are the direct sound.
@@brentonratcliffe7089
My speakers are 7 feet apart and I'm sitting 10 feet away... so, No.
The first thing to understand is that the left-right placement of sounds in your recordings has nothing to do with your stereo. There are no parts in a stereo that can enhance, change or create it. "Soundstage" as it is called, is burned into your recordings themselves, in the mixing and mastering phases. If you look at a recording console or DAW you will find "Pan" controls... that's how it's done. So the first thing you need is recordings with proper "soundstage".
Many of today's highly compressed and limited recordings simply do not produce the full effect. In fact many of them are produced for monophonic bluetooth speakers or headphones... not for stereo speakers. To get really outstanding soundstage you need to go back to the 70s and 80s music. If you're looking for a reference, perhaps the best mixed recording of all time is "Sultans of Swing" by Dire Straits.
While there is nothing in your home system that manipulates this effect, there are plenty of ways to sabotage it. Speaker placement is #1 on that list. If you do not have your speakers the same distance from your listening position, the effect will be reduced significantly. (By "same distance" I mean within 1/4 inch, btw). As Paul pointed out toe-in also has an impact, getting this identical for both speakers will also help.
Now once you have the perfect "triangle" (it does not need to be "equilateral", just the same on both sides of center) you should be able to put on a recording center yourself at your listening position and hear the singer or lead instruments directly in front of you.
Next close your eyes listen carefully and point at the speakers. If all is working well, when you open your eyes, you will find yourself pointing into space well outside of your speakers. That's the vanishing effect.
I've heard this effect on everything from $100 department store stereos all the way up to $100,000 high end setups. I've also seen it fail on that same range of equipment because of poor speaker placement, off-center listening positions and room effects. But when it works it's pretty darned amazing.
Afterthought .... If you want to see a soundstage vanish, just hook your speakers up out of phase ... nothing in the middle everything directly from the speakers.
It's been my experience that one aspect of speaker placement for a disappearing soundstage involves moving them a good distance off the back wall. Hard to do in a living room where living takes place. Easier to achieve within a dedicated listening space where speakers can be 20 to 36 inches into the room. High end audio stores seem to stick to this placement strategy because it's one of many key elements for making a "sweet spot" for listening. For a speaker to shine sitting 3 inches from a back walk seems very difficult.
@@eddents
Agreed ... shared spaces do pose some limitations on good soundstage.
My speakers are about 6 inches from the front wall in my living room. I get the proper left-right sound stage, but not much depth. It's a compromise one makes to also enjoy the room for other uses.
Some tricks to try ... use port plugs to compensate for wall gain, try crossing speaker toe-in in front of you, soften the front wall behind your speakers with drapes or pe-foam padded wallpapers, try setting up on the long wall of the room, etc.
@@eddentsthis is true for most speakers. I have two sets of speakers that I rotate in and out of my dedicated room, the apogees I own are placed 82" into the room and they image great, the Polk sda2a I own are placed 6" into the room they image great also. Yet they both image a little differently. I don't know why more manufacturers don't design speakers to be placed close to the wall, it can be done with great results.
Paul I just farted
@ of course studio grade
My earphones disappear
So do my car keys.
I don't like with they disappear. I like to hear where the sound is coming from and where it is going on old stereo recordings.
No such thing. Ignorant people refer to it as soundstage. It's actually projection. You're projecting the sound past you so it doesn't appear to come from the speakers. My technology uses a single tower to produce perfect stereo. The effect is being on the stage with a band or orchestra. With 2 speakers and 2 sound wave sources. Sound wave overlap becomes a problem. Forming destructive waves. Toeing of speakers is a vain attempt to correct this. This only minimizes destructive wave overlap. Old technology old terminology. And absolutely no knowledge Of sound wave behavior. 🧏♂️
Tell us about your technology that does this. I'd love to know. You can email me directly paul@psaudio.com
🙄
@@jimmiedean8035 Thanks. Would you be willing to share with me the basis of your SST technology principals? I am currently working on exactly this project and would love to know what you're doing.
Paul, just noticed, you've lost some weight. Looking fit and trim.
@MC-bg7ro LOL, thanks, wish losing weight were that easy.