The issue with the vast majority of live service games is that they're trying to build a game to support a monetization model instead of building a monetization model to support a game.
The issue with all industries is the profit motive. Why does a game need to support a monetization model? Why can't they just make a good game that draws people to play it? Because investors want to see ever-increasing returns. This is enshittification, and it was around long before games, as shown by the McD's anecdote. It's not going to stop until we successfully re-align our values as a society to be more humane, sustainable, and empathetic. Once we do that, we can say goodbye to all kinds of parasites, like landlords, scalpers, and pretty much any kind of salesmen.
They just fixed this exploit in a way that seems fair to me. You can only get super credits from a map once per instance (so you get the super credits if you disconnect but when you reconnect you don't get them again if you pick them up again). This doesn't punish regular players but removes the cheesy farming.
That's awsome to hear honestly, It's nice to know how vids like this is to inform both players and makers on these things. His intro bit does alot, considering the more greed I see in games and people keep defaulting to "inflation" as a way to describe why it's a thing. Inflation is a factor, and exists obviously. But for all the times i see people who make this argument as "basic economics" refuse the other basic understanding how bloated or artificially raised that inflation is. I don't mind fun little "cheese" but some things can be hurtful if not touched on and as it was described...the best time to fix this stuff is now.
From the sound of Frost's numbers, that would still allow fast farming, just not *as* fast. More importantly, imo, being forced to run around looking for stuff on new maps is a lot more like standard gameplay than optimizing a route for a specific map, so even someone on the grindset is going to have more fun and burn themselves out less quickly. Sounds like a good change, and if the grinding problem is still too big they could maybe do diminishing returns on super credit/medal spawns on new maps if your recent time per map is excessively low, making it optimal to go play a normal game as intended every few runs.
@@SparkSovereignYeah, I think the biggest issue is when "grinding" and "gameplay" divide. A good game will make it so that, in order to grind, you have to play. The exploit here was making it so "grinding" consisted of quitting and reloading a game over and over again, which isn't what gameplay is. Since this exploit is fixed, grinding looks like gameplay again. Load in a mission, search and explore, fight, finish, load a new mission.
It absolutely makes sense. But calling it "not exploiting" sounds a bit disconnected. Still I understand and honestly agree with the main point to the video.
@@SparkSovereign For me at least, the problem isn't the farming itself necessarily, but the not finishing the mission; which this solve at least discourages. Since (as I understand it) there is a total maximum "player effect" that we can have on objectives, calculated based on the total players online or slt (IIRC), players not finishing missions actively hurts the war effort. Considering we failed the last few objectives last week, getting less players to abandon missions for farming is worth it to me.
5:30 Funnily enough, they stealth-patched this, if you're quitting the game to keep and replay the same map to get SC from the same spots over and over... you now get nothing on your second run trough. You now have to go to a new map and find new points of interest if you want to earn more SC in game. It's great, stops farming from breaking the economy while leaving normal players unaffected.
well that just encourage the gameplay loop of loading the easiest mission, ignore everything but POI, and quit the mission after you have collected everything, objective be damned
@@sumdude5172 it's fine like that though, they intended for the currency to be able to be grinded and completing the missions still helps the main goals.
@@Pablud3S hours of mindless grind for a Warbond that won't even expire as well. I keep telling people this, chill, enjoy the game you have all the time in the world.
this is clearly is an exploit, no game has an intended feature where you alt f4 out of it and go back in to reload the same map the 20th time without completing it
The main problem I have with the speed farming method for SC and medals is... I earn enough of both playing normally that I can just play the game normally and not have to pay. Your time calculations for how many hours it takes to unlock a warbond are missing the fact that each warbond has SC in it.
@@RickJaegerSo far it's been 300 credits back (unlocked with medals) from a 1000 credit purchase. The free one that everyone gets has something like 650 credits unlocked with medals.
So I suppose time wise that would be Time = (1000+700(N-1)) ÷ Rh where Rh is the hourly rate of SC earnings, and N is the total number of warbonds in question.
Also, I just don't think most players' time is so cheap that they are willing to do what's basically brain dead repetitive work for 8.5 dollars an hour in their free time. Especially when that 8.5 dollars is paid in in-game Monopoly cash.
Your argument is almost good, just missing a two words "for me". "The progression is gaat enough through regular gameplay, for me". Your experience may not be the same as those of others. Additionally the medals cap is reached a lot faster than the credits for a war bond. Which tells us two things: The cap is stupid and the credits are too slow.
I mean if you are just mindlessly grinding go ahead, but most of us play the game to focus on doing the major orders and objectives. Like 80% of the player base was on the last bot planet during that major order so clearly the majority of the player base is more focused on the galactic war than grinding
On the other hand, there is the long term possibility of fatigue with the major order, which can invalidate this point later down the line. Even now, many divers were already in "what were we doing here?" mode after being asked to defend 10 planets we supposedly already spent efforts locking down, only to see them attacked later.
If Frost keeps talking down about Helldivers 2 like this, he's gonna need to change the name of his show xD Those two videos are the hottest cold takes yet.
The McDouble is a good analogy for monetization built around obscuring value. Since the $1.40 two-cheese, two-patty option was named the same as the former $1 option, people didn't order the Double Cheese because they wanted the extra cheese (at least they didn't want it enough to pay more). They ordered it because they didn't know about the change. They wanted the $1 burger but wound up accidentally paying for the slice of cheese until they learned to order McDouble. The names of the menu items were deliberately confusing to get some extra pennies from people ordering the wrong item by mistake.
It is so very blatantly an exploit, I don't understand how Frost thinks its anything but, and then acting like it's a big sign of a problem in the game when the correct answer is just... fix the exploit, which Helldivers 2 appears to already have done.
That's what confused me too. How would this not be considered an exploit? The devs recently fixed this, so in their eyes, it was obviously considered one...
"you will earn enough credits to unlock the next path in progression of your choosing just by working through what you already have access to, no need to worry about buying if you just play the game (especially since you can't buy the medals)" "but I need to unlock everything right now :c" I really don't understand why some people think like this
Short grind is still grind, people will still pay to skip it. People also need to educate themselves about said grind, which as you can see in those video examples, a few thousand people is a drop in the playerbase ocean of millions of purchasers.
It's somewhat understandable when they add new weapons and tweak (usually nerf) the stats of the old ones. The only weapon I feel that is 'imbalanced' in the warbond is likely the Scorcher, which takes a long while to get the medals for (but it's part of the free warbond/progression), and the Dominator, which requires you to buy a warbond ingame (you also get the same warbond with the deluxe edition, and you can of course pay to unlock it) and investing some medals. I think that people are FOMO-ing in Helldivers 2 partially because we're used to doing so in these games, and I don't really know how to have a live service without either microtransactions or subscriptions. Of course, making a game a live service is a choice, but so far this game is tilted far more to the "good" side than the bad side, i.e. we're getting content and changes made to the game often enough to make monetization seem reasonable. Of course, if it turns out that everyone who has an account gets all the medals for all the major orders that succeed, we will have a problem with "medal whales" returning to the game with loads to spend but nothing to spend it on unless they pay money to unlock the warbonds - but so far that hasn't been a problem.
I know right. I mean there is something to be said for getting access to what seems to be an overpowered weapon before it's nerfed just to play around with it. I know I wish I'd gotten a chance to try out the Railgun or breaker pre-nerf after seeing videos of it in action. in that case though I just was not playing the game quick enough to earn the needed metals and Req.
I'm old fashioned on this. I paid $40 for a game and have had a great time. I got my moneys worth. I own all the warbonds without farming or buying SC and have enough for the next one. The economy is pretty generous even without farming, so i do wonder how long this game will last after people move on.
The thing is this argument relies on "I'm only playing this game for the pretty stuff" and not "I'm playing this game cause its fun". It kind of screams Cod MW2 (2009) vs CoD MW2 (2022). People played OG because it was fun and had great gameplay, the red tiger camos and shit was a sign of status in the game and meant you knew what you were doing, now its a money symbol. People that enjoy a game because its fun, don't stop playing when they max out on unlockable content, they continue. And if the game wasn't just a fun base, they wouldn't be pulling ~300k people every weekend since launch 2 months out. ~300k people aren't logging on every weekend to just grind for cosmetics.
@@TheRealSonicBeats Yeah, I have every warbond and a fair chunk of progression along all four, long since capped requisition slips with no stratagems to buy (though the new ship module tiers help by costing reqs), and like Even when I had little to actually unlock, I just didn't even care. I just kept playing, because the game is just fun. Whenever the population does wind down, you know what Arrowhead will do? Scale down the servers to reduce costs. They didn't axe Helldivers 1 because of low population, and HD1 is also still being left online with its own major orders and galactic war still going. Arrowhead are not going to shut this game down. HD1 set the precedent for that. But I also don't think HD2 is gonna shrink as much as HD1 did either, because we're two months past release now and it still regularly pulls about 300k players on average, with spikes to 600k still. It's almost like making a good fucking game that's built to be fun will retain players more than your FOMO bullshit. Helldivers 2, Deep Rock Galactic, Sea of Thieves, they all continue to pull a ton of players because they're just fun to play, and those players are all willing to throw money at the devs to show support even if they _can_ grind it all out for free. People do buy SCs with real money, quite a lot, specifically to show support even though it's easy to get SCs for free.
I feel like talking about a Helldivers "Economy" is more than a little meaningless. There's no trading anything unless you count bringing equipment your friend doesn't have, then telling your friend kill you so they can pick it up and play with it. Nothing will disappear as the Warbonds are permanent and you can choose what order you unlock them. You can earn nearly everything in game just by playing and it can take you less than 200 Hours if you've got halfway decent luck. I have 180 hours logged as of writing, level 63 and am less than 100 Super Credits away from unlocking my third Warbond. I've got enough Medals saved up after completing the other Warbonds, I'll probably be able to max out the new one once it's unlocked. Hell, I'm almost done upgrading my ship AFTER the updates which add another tier costing half your maximum Regular Currency, 250 Regular Samples, 150 Rare Samples and 15 Super Samples because so long as you collect the samples as you play, you'll have a healthy amount in the bank. This isn't the seventeen layer intentionally obscured 13-D Jenga Mousetrap Extravaganza like Diablo: Immoral. It's a very simple "Play Game, get stuff, unlock stuff to play with, play game with new stuff, Repeat" Loop. I've spent 0$ on this game (as a friend bought it for me) and haven't farmed anything at all. I just play the game with my friends on a semi-regular basis. The game isn't about making money, it's about having fun. Regardless of what weapon, armor, stratagems or upgrades you have, you won't be having fun if you're just awful at playing the game and die until mission failure every time you dive. Unless people are selling PS/Steam Accounts with maxed out everything to people who don't want to put in work, just to play the game and have fun with every tool at their disposal, I genuinely don't understand what the fuss is about. Does Frost just not like Helldivers? It's fine if not, it's not everyone's cup of libertea, but you don't gotta go searching for any soft spot to punch so you can cry "HAHA, SEE, I WAS RIGHT, I TOLD YOU" when they crumble from being punched in the baby-makers. It's a Live Service Game, which means eventually it will go away, yes. All your time and money will have been for naught but the memories you can look back on with a smile. But don't all good things come to an end eventually?
He's barely played the game. Level 16 and only low difficulties. Perhaps even skipping side points of interest which will result in having not enough game currencies which he is trying to fix by farming trivial difficulty solo.
@@cattysplat While 30 hours might not be a lot for a live-service game, I think that's still a respectable amount of time to put into a game and to have opinions about it. At level 16, you have most of the stratagems available for purchase, and nothing suggested Frost exclusively plays on low difficulties; he was playing on trivial for the purposes of showing off the farm. Perhaps Frost is making mountains out of molehills, but I have no reason to dismiss him out of hand even if I disagree with him. He's very explicit about just doing this to try and make a point; I think it's taking his arguments in bad faith to try and speculate about how he actually plays the game.
The reason no-one talks about it is because firstly there's no priority to farm as (currently) playing for free is reasonable and warbond prices are also cheap to get alot of content. Heck, I bought the most recent one more just to support the devs because of how respectful to players Helldivers is compared to other games. The other reason is farming is painfully boring and repetitive compared to normal gameplay, which means unless you're the type of person to find the Destiny 1 loot cave thrilling, you're unlikely to do more than a couple of farm runs before returning to regular gameplay.
Yeah like you get 3/10s of a warbond back by just buying a premium warbond so far right out of the gate. I got the energy weapon and the explosive warbonds with only buying the cheapest amount of super credits while I got the rest in game. I don't want to grind and be bored as hell, I play Helldivers to play the major orders, not grind for hours to get premium currency.
I would have been tempted to do this just to get enough medals (400+) to get my paws on the Scorcher. Fortunately, I just unlocked the Dominator instead and am having fun with that one instead, and I don't think I'll be going into the new warbond that just dropped in a while - so I will (eventually) just play enough to unlock it. My hope is that the monetization in Helldivers 2 is enough to keep the lights on and the 'campaign' going at its current, IMO light-weight tilt to the monetization side. While I don't foresee playing it forever, I would like to jump back in every now and then just to light some bugs on fire with my friends.
I just want to say i have found caches of SC up to 100 and why would you want to farm SC if you aren't playing the game? Why get the premium rewards if you are taking away the game out of the equation?
Some people just really like to exploit games and that is their fun. I can also imagine that if you do 1 hour of grinding and then go back to playing normally, you can keep up with the pay-to-play live service model. In the original Pokémon game, if you chose Charmander as your starter, you pretty much have to max your party to level 10 to take on the first gym. There were only bug and normal type Pokémon available to the player before that gym which are at a disadvantage to the rock type (in gen 1 red/blue games). I remember being set back by this compared to my brother who chose Squirtle as he breezed through the gym, and I had to grind levels for like 4 hours. Let me tell you that if I could have paid to get a water type Pokémon I think I would have or would have used an exploit that lets my Charmander use water gun. Technically, this grind was part of the game and it sucked because all foreword progress was halted at this choke point.
because i want to have the same cool gear as my friends. but i dont have the time to play that many maps and i dont have the disposable income to shovel out for super credits. not shitting on the devs for this. they patched it out and i ate my fill. is what it is. just pointing out that there's reasons besides "hurr durr exploits lmoa" why someone would wanna do this. some people are adults with jobs and budgets that just wanna play games with their friends. so if there's gonna be a grind i prefer the shorter grind to the longer grind.
Talking about an economy seems misguided in the face of there not being any player-to-player trading. Nothing is collapsing. A few people are doing an exploit that affects them and only them.
I think the issue is more that if everyone starts doing this then no one is going to see a need to buy any premium currency and then the devs can't afford to keep updating the game.
false, it costs more space in the foorboards that we're definitely going to clean sometime next week we just haven't had the time and we'll get to it once we have the chance but for now either just lay your feet on it or push it to a corner or something (those boxes are never leaving that car)
7:12 Frost, dude, I love ya and respect ya, but you can't compare a paid currency to one that's completely separated from it. The samples and requisition slips are separated from the premium currency *NOT* by not being purchasable, but by being used for *entirely separate things* for which you cannot pay real money for. *Stratagems and ship modules are a point-based unlock system with a different coat of paint.*
As for the rest of the video... Do you really believe it wasn't an exploit? C'mon. It should be pretty clear that's not an intended method for obtaining super credits, especially since you mentioned how the devs themselves publicly stated the expected/intended amounts players would find. Look, we get it, you don't like Helldivers, and I think a large part of that is cause it's a live service. You're predisposed to not like the game and you're entitled to your opinion. What's bothersome, though, is letting that bleed into more objective assessments of the state of the games industry, and the misrepresentation of what the example you're using actually does. The devs said themselves "Here, here's exactly what we expect from our players" and your conclusion is "if only devs made things clearer things would be better"? Just pick a different example. Trust me, there's plenty. Stop letting Helldivers live rent-free in your head.
Meh, you can spend your time doing meaningless grind in helldivers 2, but I don't know if this kind of behaviour will really be that common as long as having fun gives you enough upgrades regularly...
That's my exact argument. The fun comes from the gameplay, but if your sacrificing the gameplay to just engage with the monetization system in the most abusive way you can (lowest level farming credits for cosmetics) than the lack of enjoyment is fully on you. A game with ~300k players during the weekends isn't going to have a huge portion of people breaking the economy system.
@@TheRealSonicBeats Economy system? Do you think this is an mmo with a marketplace and player trading or something? There is no economy, people grinding super credits literally affects no one else and it saves them a 40 hour grind to unlock a single warbond. Way better to spend a single hour grinding and then enjoying the next 39 hours with warbond gear.
@@mace8983 I mean, we're talking about the economy in the game. Economy systems in games are everything not just a real-world trading platform. You pay money, you get SC, that is an economy, of which some players are breaking by powerfarming SC.
@@mace8983 40 hours to unlock a warbond? I got each one saved up for in around 18-24 hours just running missions after work with my mates playing for around 4 hours at a time.
I dunno, man, I feel like Helldivers has definitely sold enough money to recuperate costs without needing microtransactions on top of everything. Feels like we're definitely at the point where publishers do it because hey, everyone else does it and as long as it's not egregiously pay to win most won't even complain. There are people who are now fully adult, old enough to drink and vote, who weren't even born yet when Oblivion's horse armour released. A lot of people literally cannot remember an industry before this being normalized.
Pretty sure the lead designer has said to consider the micro-transactions to be a tip, they are fine without them and they are not even necessary if you just play the game. It just allows him to buy Warhammer figures.
I don't know the kind of figures Arrowhead made with selling the game upfront of course, but that's not an infinite well. Games are expensive to make and maintain and after a certain amount of time those up front sales alone aren't enough anymore to keep the servers running. It's not being put in there just to shake money out of you, is my point. There are totally games where that's the whole point of course, but I wouldn't count Helldivers 2 among them.
@@00101001000000110011 Of course, yeah. I wish more games would go this route, honestly. Point is, games are still a business at the end of the day. Even if they go down that road later they can't just snip their fingers and make it happen.
I mean, sure, they COULD do that. But so long as people are shelling out for the War Bonds, why would they? If nothing else, they probably ENJOY creating new content, and this is how they get paid for it.
Exactly, I don't feel like I have to grind in Helldivers 2. I just play, try to get as much on the map, and do my damndest to extract. over time I get to unlock stuff. And if I feel the need to spend money, sure. I'll throw them a few bones.
bit of a note, you generally are supposed to check PoIs as you go about; they have Samples, Medals, SCs, Requisition Slips, ammunition, grenades, stims, and sometimes power weapons like the AMR, Railgun, Arc Thrower, etc. You mainly gain Medals through finishing missions, which is also how you get most of your req slips and is the only way you gain exp. to put it simply, *play the game to get the rewards.* these sorts of cheese strats tend to get removed or gutted, much like how safe mode railgun got kneecapped for being no risk high reward with a shieldgen.
It's less hot than the last one, i think. He's very neutral about his view of the game in this one, too. It _does_ present a very real problem, though it's more about FOMO than a crashed economy. Once this game has been out for a few months, there'll be a lot more warbonds to choose from. If you play actively the entire time, this doesn't really mean much to you, but if you _stop_ playing for a while, suddenly you've fallen behind and you'll need to play twice as much to catch up to the current pace. That's to say nothing of _new_ players who might buy this game in a year or so, when there's dozens of warbonds that they have to choose from.
@@LEOTomegane not really though. the devs and CEO shown that they listen to the players on both good and bad takes. if the game last long enough to have over 10 warbonds ain't nothing stopping them for saying "so we heard the players and we decided to let people buy medals finally." Like i really want to pay money for more cool toys NOW and they said no work for it you will have more fun that way. Hell in the future they may just lower the amount of medals needed for unlocking the stuff in the warbonds to 1 to 5 medals. That way players will still have to play the game and have fun without wasting to much time on items that been in the shop for months/years
@@LordKore letting people buy medals won't solve the new player issue. It might actually make it worse; it could look like they're trying to incentivize paying money to skip a grind that gets more and more daunting every month. Think of, for example, MMO expansion purchases. With every new expansion that comes out, the price for the total game increases. It's like that.
I play this game like 3 to 4 times a week for about an hour or 2. And I have mostly everything I want without needing to grind. I just have fun playing! Best live service I've played.
10:01 - $1 for 7 minutes is slightly less than $10/hr, which is minimum wage is a not-insignificant number of states. Just throwing that out there without further comment.
How is it optimizing the fun out of a game? You would rather spend 40 hours grinding 1000 super credits to unlock a single warbond, instead of spending an hour or two grinding and then enjoying the next 38-39 hours of gameplay with warbond gear?
@@denzelwright8475 Why would i play the game naturally when the weapon variety objectively sucks? Why would i spend 40 hours grinding with the only free weapon in the game that's worth a damn just to unlock 3 more weapons, when i could just spend 1 hour instead and enjoy the rest of my time with better weapon variety? The lack of weapon variety is a real flaw with the game. Most people don't spend hundreds of hours on a single game, most of the time they spend about 50 hours and then they move on to something else. Grinding for 2-3 hours to unlock all the weapons the game has to offer and then enjoy the game fully for the next 45 with actual decent weapon variety is just the smartest, most fun way to spend the 50 hours.
Frost seems really dedicated to playing an arcadey 4 person co-op as a single player grindfest, sure the warbonds come out every month but they're not going anywhere. I've taken a break from Helldiving because my gf recently got Sky: COTL and I'm playing with her but wow the monetization in that game really made me love Helldivers even more.
"They're not going anywhere" is the important part It doesn't really matter that they're adding more content monthly since there's no time limit/fomo Just more content for new players to unlock whenever they get around to it
That's the part I like; I'm tired of time limits on loot, and when I first played HELLDIVERS and opened the Warbonds menu, I thought to myself, "oh, great, now I gotta quickly grind for these so I can get 'em before they expire." Hearing that they're not going away was a huge relief to me.
The entire watch through of this video I had a game in my mind named Foxhole, an MMO that doesn’t have microtransactions and yet still exists, because it doesn’t need them, all it needs is new people buying and playing the game. The reason why I’m not very concerned about Helldivers is because that seems to be where they want to make money from, not the micropayments, but from the actual people buying the whole game. I was also unconvinced by Frost’s arguments that it must become worse simply because people want to skip the grind, it feels like an argument in search of a leg to stand on, a reason why this live service game is bad, even if it isn’t right now it must eventually become one, right? It points to an overly cynical view in my eyes, because I remember the first Helldivers, which had all the gear locked behind paywalls. Arrowhead intentionally created a different system when they could very easily have kept the old one, but why? Well, I’d argue it’s because they have realized the market as it is now, that every other live service game has their gear behind a paywall of some form of another, usually far too high for an actual player to pass, especially for the later gear, but Helldivers lets you see what you are paying for, it lets you choose the warbond, there are no secrets about what’s in it, so you get to choose the one that speaks to you most. This tells me that they are exploiting the market, but not the buyer in it, they are exploiting how the other games are far worse in their practices, and using that itself as marketing material. They have no reason to gouge players who are walking into the game because they are doing so in great numbers. Sorry for the long post, I am quite tired, and just writing my thoughts instead of condensing them
Foxhole is still very niche, I'm surprised by how little I see of it in English-speaking spaces. But I hear it is some degree of successful in other regions, especially China. I'm guessing new Chinese players is what is keeping that game alive?
The "sell more copies of the base game" approach can work in the short term. But that dries up (or slows to a trickle) once most potentially interested players own a copy. At that point, you need some kind of revenue stream to continue operating the servers, let alone produce new content.
@@RumpusImperator Look up Foxhole, it has existed for years, and has zero other monetization strategies besides getting people to just buy the friggin game, the belief that micro-transactions are neccessary to prop a game up is false, and only helps executives
@@RumpusImperatorFunny thing is, go look at terraria and its devs. The stream of folk buying terraria never seems to cease Their advantage is a lack of needing servers to host the game directly, which in lies the true cost of live-service games and the root of the problem at large.
Here's a wild idea: A single upfront cost for the game, all cosmetics, if any, in the game are earnable by playing the game well, allow players to host their own servers.
Congratulations, you've stripped out one of the more interesting appeals of Helldivers 2, that it has an ongoing, persistent storyline shared and contributed to by all players, with ongoing development that can shake things up once it starts feeling stale.
"throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks" is a much better strategy when you're throwing small cheap things to decide what to invest in, rather than massive projects that cost hundreds of millions.
To be more vulgar about it: "force it down your throat and see what you don't cough back up" That's how I feel at least when they try and put it into every game
Publisher tactics is just "Put in an egregious monetization system and, if people object, tone it back to merely extreme and frustrating so that people will thank us for listening to them."
I'm one of those people that will not spend money beyond the purchase price. I genuinely don't care about the "value", because the moment the experience becomes monetized, it has no value. It's just another skinner box.
I don't understand. That didn't look like a balance problem to me, that seemed more like an unintended exploit. Nobody says that they game is unbalanced because you find an invulnerability exploit in an online shooter, you call the devs so they fix it.
Honesty, I’m all for the current current system’s generosity. Not engaging in the monetization outside of the $40.00 price point is a net benefit for me, and allows me to reserve any additional purchases of monetization elements in the future as a contribution to support the game itself if it continues to be of quality. And if such generosity results in the game not funding itself 2 or 5 or 10 years down the line, then it’ll just fade away like all live service games do whether they’re good OR bad. I just hope they create a public server infrastructure to continue the game’s functionality when that day comes so the community can take the wheel.
" I just hope they create a public server infrastructure to continue the game’s functionality when that day comes so the community can take the wheel." Has Sony Interactive Entertainment ever done that for any games they published? The only way that is going to happen is probably going to be reverse engineering and reimplementation.
@@kip_c I mean you couldn't call it pay to win anyway cause half the shit doesn't work due to the current pile of debilitating bugs. More like "Pay-To-Preform-Sub-Optimally". Lookin at you fire themed Warbond while the DoT bug is still unpatched.
@@kip_cyou can earn everything in the game for free in an extremely reasonable amount of time, and every unlockable thing in the game is more or less a side-grade to the starting equipment. Calling Helldivers 2 P2W is like calling Team Fortress 2 P2W, in that yeah, it _kinda_ is in the loosest definition of the phrase, but at that point you're just coming up with excuses to not play instead of just admitting you're not interested in what the devs are serving. Tangent: why do people do that? Why do people feel the need to defend their decision to _not_ play a game? A simple "It doesn't appeal to me" is more than fine.
@@De_kaid I'd say if paying money gives you an advantage over other players, it's pay 2 win. In Helldivers 2, if you buy super credits, you aren't earning anything faster than other players since all the actual items are only unlocked with Requisition, Samples, and Medals, none of which can be purchased. As such, the game is not pay 2 win.
It is clearly an exploit. I imagine that the best way to fix this is that you can randomize the map each time you re-enter the game, or retain the status of these items being gathered so they cant be obtained twice in a row.
I haven't paid an additional penny since buying the game. I have over 2k super credits, purchased cutting edge and democratic detonation (had steeled veterans for SC edition), and also a shitload of superstore armor. Why? I played the game. I didn't have to shell out money. I played the game and was rewarded.
Nice work. I agree that the conversation you're trying to start is an important one. Mind you I'm not the target audience. I'm old. I'm cheap and thus I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than play a game with any form of in-game monetization. Crucially I'm also bad at Fromsoft games (but have a great time getting mulched) so I have my gaming time already committed for the foreseeable future.
Well yeah, but a lot of these games are free to play. You should love them if it were just about being cheap. So obviously your feelings are not about that.
Agreed with Stephen here, I always HATED the live service formula, but absolutely loved how Helldivers 2 handles it, I’ve bought the game and haven’t spent a dime since most everything is affordable and the game is actually fun even without things that you can get for money. It’s less about the system itself and more about how it’s implemented.
@@1IGGlol he didn't say that. Be nice. He said he agreed with the conversation but also shared that he wasn't the target audience because his habits are different. He didn't devalue the conversation or say that his way was better. He just shared. Not everyone likes to participate in internet arguments. Some people just like to make conversation. Chill, man.
I'm glad that I don't seem to get grabbed by bad reinforcement loops. Unless the game *is* the farming, a la EVE Online my old friend, then I don't want to be farming, I want to be playing the game. Doing the same mission over and over and over to farm the same loot drops isn't playing the game now is it so I don't feel any pull towards doing it. How to solve this for the wider population, who the fuck knows.
Helldivers 2 is the first live service game where i dont feel the need to buy currency to get a new armor or to get a new pass because the currency is easily obtainable in game without mindlessly "farming". 180 hours in and i have bought the 3 premium warbonds and a bunch of the super store armors.
But, Helldivers doesn't have an economy. Nothing is traded, there's no transactions, and one currency is never exchanged for another. Calling the mechanic an economy is a misnomer.
The problem with some live service games is that not everyone tries to make them fun. There is a difference if you`re having fun for 30 hours per warbond in a game that was designed to be fun, or suffering and slogging through another generic battle pass with 2 tracks (free, not free), because the game was designed that way to motivate micro(macro is some cases)-transactions.
I've managed to get all three premium warbonds using the Super Credits I pick up by playing normally. I even end up with plenty left over to buy the armor sets in the premium store. I have no idea why people feel the need to speed farm them. Just play the game and you'll get the rewards. Is it really that hard to understand?
"I want players to know what they're buying, and producers to know what they're selling." Asymmetry of information ALWAYS requires central regulation to correct. I know that's probably not the news you want to hear, because regulation generally sucks, but markets don't function without a central force to orchestrate them. If you leave markets to self correct then whoever has the most power uses it to accumulate more and gets to control the market. And since consumer unions as a concept hover somewhere between a thought experiment and the butt of a joke, the centralized producer will always have more power than the decentralized consumer. There's no incentive for producers to reduce information asymmetry except from regulatory punishment or lost profits, but consumers have demonstrated repeatedly that they will accept a lie of omission as a substitute for proper information, basically any time one is presented. I doubt it's going anywhere, anytime soon - at least not unless individual consumers start physically attacking/disabling games and studios that exploit them. I'm not advocating for it, but there are SOME limits to lopsided markets.
"it's not an exploit" This is 100% an exploit lol. I have no qualms with you playing this way but it's 100% exploiting a quirk of the game's systems. And I'm sure they'll find a way to fix it without hurting anyone - for example, treating intentional quitting separately from an unforced disconnect.
A McDouble in Canada now costs over $4. Before COVID it was $1.89. A medium fry is $4.29. I quit fast food. The deals on the apps are only given because the user data they get in return is worth more than the discount you’re getting.
@@rikamayhem Yeah that's true as well. When they were originally piloting the app in Japan they found on average app users spent 35% more at their restaurants. It's manipulation used to further future manipulation. Just look at what Wendy's is doing. They're using machine learning analysis to look at customer trends and are switching to a fluid menu pricing based on demand. So your burger won't cost the same at 8pm compared to 12pm. It's a disgusting future. Eat at local restaurants, buy from your local grocer.
See I disagree in not calling this an exploit .... It's clearly exploiting the system. Which is worth a ban, ALWAYS. You know what you're doing. This isn't accidental. This is very worth banning.
Helldivers is a bit different to most live service games I think because the grind isn't really what keeps people interested. The majority of players keep playing after they already have everything unlocked because it's just fun, and you have organic goals ingame due to how the campaign works.
I’m level 15 and have about 700 credits, I don’t play every day and more than a couple hours at a time. I also don’t even earn credits on every mission because I’m focused on XP to unlock that sweet quasar and shield pack. It’s a fun game for me in this way. What you’re describing would wholly and utterly ruin my desire to click play.
Helldivers 2 design is intentional. That it's so surprising, that the game is designed around open rules that can be exploited if the player choses to do so, says more about how we've been conditioned to be grinding or buying ingame currencies just to get what we want. Games used to have cheat codes in them, developers wanted those who wanted to cheat, to just have fun instead of being blocked. Games used to be client side profiles, so those who wanted to edit files could do so, but almost everything is server side these days because most developers fear players won't keep playing/paying if they get what they want. Players accepting the rat maze in modern gaming is the problem.
Despite you telling me how to do this, im not because its boring as shit... so the question is, do you think a majority of people are actually going to do this? Or do you think the full time workers, mums and dads would rather just play the game, vs farming this way? Especially when they can still earn credits by playing, even if its slower.
Helldivers 2 has had the most fair monetization of any live service I've playex. I have earned the first 2 premium passes f2p and im 40 credits away from the 3rd should i choose to unlock it. The prices seem fair if you want to buy armor sets and i have no feeling in the back of my mind that "gosh i shouldnt be doing anything other than playing helldivers because i need to be grinding" that so many other live service games try to use.
@@kip_c I've seen you post over and over again. I really don't think you get the point, SC are super easy to get. That is the problem Frost's video is pointing out, he can't see how the game can survive long term as there is no need to pay anything after purchase. Just playing a single trivial game every day and collecting the PoI you will have enough Super Credits by the end of the month, and that can take 5 minutes.
@@kip_c Zero here, I've just been playing the game, working my way up the difficulty levels. That HellDive difficulty is chaotic a f**k! Still good fun.
@quinntonhuffman5260 Same here, I’ve had zero issues unlocking warbonds and collecting SC just from playing the game normally for 2-3hrs a few days a week. People gotta chill out on looking for the “most optimal” way to play games
What is this farming nonsense? I play 1-2 hours a day (week day) and maybe double that at the weekend, and I mean playing not farming and I have all warbonds unlocked. Maybe spend more time enjoying the game than working out how to cheese the game.
@@kip_c If you're getting bugs it's because you aren't following the major order. But in seriousness, I haven't had a crash or game breaking bug in weeks. Judging by the discord there are people that still have problems, but I don't know what combination of hardware or settings might be related.
Hell, the easiest fix for this without hurting the economy is just randomize the spawn locations on each dive. Even if it's the same campaign. Even if it's the same exact mission. Map remains the same. Spawn locations for drops or the drops themselves are randomized. Doesn't hurt legitimate players, doesn't break the economy, but makes diving for just the drops less viable since you're not getting the medals and samples for the upgrades
I know I sound "boomer-ish," but what happened to playing a game because it was fun and you wanted a distraction from real life? When Nick started talking about how Helldiver's economy works, I tuned out. Sorry, basically it sounds like work. I'd rather play for... fun? Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But to be clear, THANK YOU Nick for talking about it. I just figure I opted out when DRM and live service and loot boxes became the norm. Kudos to those who agree and make games without 'em.
I basically don't agree with anything that you've said here period hell divers is not getting murky with the Monetization. You can fairly easily get everything for free by playing The Game. Some of the best weapons are in the free war bond and your numbers for hours to farm in game currency are fairly exaggerated. This is one of the only games that is not being shady with the Live service model
I would definitely call this an exploit. Quitting out of the game mid-mission and reloading the same map over and over again is definitely an exploit. Make it so you can only confirm medals and super credits after reaching the end screen, either win or lose. Even if it is only confirmed by winning, you can finish a mission and then fully die and that still counts as "complete," you don't even need to extract. I think most punishing would be to make them work like samples, where you have to keep them as you extract. I wouldn't want that. Either way, I really do think the solution is easier than you're making it seem. This is an exploit. Quitting out of the game should make you lose whatever rewards you got in game. If you want them, finish the map. Now you can't reload your treasure chest and now you can't collect without playing the game.
@@CCC-w6gOne can suggest a fix without calling it high priority. Also I think the servers has stabilized a lot since launch, they're clearly working on that.
I think the only wrinkle here is players that disconnect for whatever reason (crash or internet shut down), do they loose the reward from something out of their control?
it was mentioned in the video, confirming on the end mission screen punishes people on weak connections who disconnect. The way the devs actually fixed it was by confirming credits on pickup and not respawning them if you disconnect and reload.
It's an exploit, but really a pointless exploit. SC are super easy to get. Just playing a single trivial game every day and collecting the PoI you will have enough Super Credits by the end of the month, and that can take 5 minutes.
Y'know, the thing you seemed to miss is that unlike most live service games, Helldivers is just... Fun. I was listening to you describe your farming strategy and all I could think was "That sounds boring. I'd rather just play the game." I don't mind grinding for super credits, because lone-wolfing it through bot-occupied territory hunting for beacons and crates is actually fun.
Get to the end of the video... it's not about taking the fun out of the game by skipping the grind. It's about how in-game economies just don't make sense when determining the "value" of it.
@@kip_c I think you are missing the point of the video. It wasn't about Helldiver having shitty practices for the consumer. It was that the game almost negates the need to pay anything after purchase, which may affect the long term survival of the game. No money coming in means they can't keep the servers going.
@@sazersuperzero1770 That's a lot of text to forget that Helldivers 2 has a point of entry fee of $40 where we do not. We live or die by people's enjoyment of our content and willingness to support it. Helldivers does not.
I can literally fuck around and do whatever I want in HD2 and still earn enough to not have to pay real money for anything. Compare that to the last game I played the most: War Thunder. Every single time I logged off, I felt like I hadn't done enough. Like I hadn't gotten far enough in the grind. God forbid I had work or missed a day or two, then my grind compounded even more. The whole grind was designed to keep you in the game as long and as much as possible and/or incentivize you to shell out cash to jump ahead. Nah, Arrowhead is doing things right in my book.
I farm super credits by playing full level 1 missions. Same story, find a map with as little water as possible and search the perimeter. When doing this solo you get 40 super credits every nine and a half minutes. With a team you get 40 every 7 minutes. That's 240 to 340 super credits per hour, when you actually are completing the main objective and calling in your transport.
It baffles me how we went from mocking buyable horse armor to grinding enough coins to buy the opportunity to grind for more items to use. Or you can pay $10 for like 4 guns. wtf? I love helldivers 2 but so many people just don’t care to think about the practices put in place.
I hate how prevalent microtransactions have become but tbh I don’t really get the people complaining about it in Helldivers. This game has, by far, the most consumer friendly implementation of the live service model I’ve seen since Deep Rock Galactic. It’s very easy to get all of the unlockables by playing the game normally and nothing is locked behind a paywall.
@@KickinRadTopHat Personally I complain about it because it seems like the mainstream gaming audience has settled for what used to be terrible practices back in the day. Paying for convenience is still a predatory practice in my opinion. Also, you can pay to unlock game changing equipment in Helldivers 2. Deep rock isn't the best comparison because they only sell cosmetics. I also have some criticism for how HD2 withheld content to be released later as part of its live service model. There have been worse cases of this so I'm fine with how fast they put the stuff out, at least.
"Something something gamers will optimise the fun out of anything." Seriously, though, while I'm hardly gonna go to bat for any game's monetisation scheme it's not like this level of grind is necessary or even effective for Helldivers. All the other currencies are still gated behind actually playing the game, and between the supercredits you can get normally and the ones you can purchase from the warbonds the average player can get by fine and actually enjoy the game.
There is one very big flaw with your assertion that this will break the games economy. There is no economy, just a storefront between you in isolation and the developer and you earning a million space bucks through an exploit has no effect on me or anyone else's game experience because there is no way for you to give me the money or buy all of the fancy guns so that the store is out of stock or has to raise prices to meet demand. Some games have an economy where an infinite money exploit would be a problem, but this is simply not one of them, there is no exchange allowed between players either of goods or money and price controls meaning no inflation. There is also that anyone who willing to grind this exploit was probably not going to spend money in the cash shop to begin with meaning this is not really a problem or even actually harmful to the developer.
I feel like all of this is mostly due to not shipping server applications anymore. If you're only hosting a server browser instead of a server and matchmaking system, your costs are way lower and you can focus on developing new content for people to buy while the game is popular. Extra bonus, the game doesn't die when you no longer want to maintain it as long as you publish the server browser code and make the address changeable. Or even just allow people to connect directly by typing in their friends' IP address. I guess the industry stopped doing that because it was too good for everyone?
Frost's "optimize all the fun out of Helldivers 2" approach to the game is so bizarre, but then he had the worst take on the game a few weeks ago, getting basic facts about the game completely wrong, and has yet to post a retraction. They already fixed this exploit he was abusing, without really changing anything for people actually playing the missions. I find it weird to go after this game, instead of every other $60+ live service game out there that genuinely does it a lot worse. Makes me wonder if Frost has some kind of personal vendetta against the devs, or if it's just that hard to reconcile "live service games suck" with "this game seems to be the exception."
you know we were going to have a problem when the 'Dollar' menu became the $1 $3 $5 menu, then they dropped that name as well since NOTHING costs $1 anymore. At this current rate I may as well just go to a regular restaurant since the cost is about the same.
Once we get more warbonds, I think it would be nice to see older warbonds being discounted. It'd be like giving them another breath as easier unlocks for new players, rather than relegating them to old powercrept news.
Genuinely good idea. I hope they do that once they hit like, 6. I think having the most recent 6 months content being full price is fair, especially if the discount is significant like a 30% to 50% discount, or even a scaling one that starts at 10% and climbs to 90% as time goes on making the first sets dirt cheap to allow a newbie to truly catch up.
the thing that really turned me off from live service games was pokemon go. i would inevitably come to a point when i ran out of pokeballs and needed to go buy some from the store...i worked out that a single pokeball cost basically a nickel...then i had this idea in my head that i'm basically throwing nickels at these pokemon...then i thought about it some more...assuming i am always hitting centre with a spin ball the only thing that determines if i catch it or not is luck...which inevitably led me to the conclusion: "am i playing a fancy slot machine?" and once i had that idea in my head i couldn't get rid of it...this is a really fancy slot machine...except i don't even have a chance of winning money from it.
That's why the business model was kind of genius. Because most players are too lazy to walk to pokestops in real life. If the ingame store didn't exist, you'd have seen even more people out in the real world playing the game.
@@cattysplat you barely get a pittance from pokestops, which you will use up in no time. And if you want ultra balls buying em is about your only option.
This video motivated me to actually look up what Helldivers is, because the entire time you were describing the monetization exploit I was thinking "what's the actual game to justify this grind"? Based on a few minutes of research... it seems to be you get dropped on a planet, kiil aliens, loot stuff, go next; the bare minimum amount of "game" needed to enable a monetization model. Supremely disappointing to learn, given that Helldivers by my understanding is quite popular. Really undermines the player outcry for higher quality games when stuff like this does well. On topic though, in my experience of being addicted to (in retrospect) subjectively bad games, a currency or rewards system that's at least partially exploitable by players is actually good for the overall health of the game from a business perspective. After the initial new game enjoyment wears off, many players straddle the fence... Do I keep grinding (largely arbitrary) rewards, or do I drop the game. But if a player feels they can "beat" the rewards system with an exploitative grind, they're more likely to double down on the game instead of asking why they're burning time on a game they stopped enjoying hours ago. These players might not be paying for the game, but they're essential for retaining overall player count that'll keep the game on the charts, keep it on streams, which brings new players in... some of whom WILL buy currency.
Helldivers is popular because it exemplifies the rule of KISS. It’s easy to pick up, easy to understand, and it doesn’t demand hours upon hours of grinding. You can pick it up, play for an hour, and put it right back down while still making decent progress.
I think people are looking at these problems at a very surface level, I keep seeing comments like "The Issue is that companies are trying to make a game that increases monetization instead of trying to make a good game." or "The issue is that Executives are greedy and are trying to make more money, the issue is that they just like money." Like sure, that's true, no shit. But it really feels like a simplification of the problem that doesn't go any deeper, like people are tiptoeing around it. Yeah OBVIOUSLY these companies are trying to make more money. It seems like gamers are willing to critique bad business practices, they say things like "Thats Blizzard for you" or "The problem is corruption/greed". They always get upset at how workers are treated, and how businesses make tons of money while making terrible games. But they always seem to fall short of saying the dreaded C word. People seem to avoid it, but your all critiquing Capitalism. Its Capitalism that CAUSES all this crap to happen. Just say it already. This problem is NOT exclusive to gaming, this is our system as a whole. The goal of Capitalism is to continue increasing capital/profits for the sake of it. To increase profits and cut costs. If that means crunch time, or firing employees, or making half baked games (POKEMON). Then so be it. The word your all looking for, the ROOT of it. is C A P I T A L I S M. Seriously its like people are just EDGING. Its frustrating, They will critique all the problems caused by the system and just avoid critiquing the system. Its stupid. I genuinely think gamers don't want to go much further than just saying "Executives suck" because they want to stay immersed in their games and not think of how their games are affected by the real world. They want to hope the problem will fix itself. But this is a problem with society, not just gaming. As long as capitalism exist, artists and creative folks will keep getting screwed over, forced to crunch and rush projects, or be abused by threat of unemployment. They'll have to struggle to pay rent, not giving them time to work on their passions, and create new things, because Capitalism makes rent skyrocket. This entire system is made to squeeze every penny out, and screw over the smaller man, to make a few people rich. Open your eyes and dig deeper. Its not just GREED, its not just "EXECS SUCK, THEY WANT MONEY." ITS THE SYSTEM THAT REWARDS THIS BEHAVIOR. STOP AVOIDING THE WORD CAPITALISM.
I mean I have ADHD and need to be doing something while watching a movie or will just get distracted and loose track of what's going on. This kind of farming is just the right amount of stimming to keep my concentration while I was watching the new Fallout series.
People who grew up with MMOs, those that get a kick out of beating the intended system. Some people like to take advantage of exploits knowing there's a high chance it gets patched out and other aspects of the in-game economy changing.
I admit that i did because i wanted to get Steeled Veterans before Cutting Edge. Didn't want to fall behind the curve and be stuck without all the fancy new toys. That being said, I wasn't grinding quite as efficiently as the exploit Frost describes. I was completing lv2-3 missions and keeping whatever I found wandering the maps. Put on my own music and everything; it was very relaxing (and still more efficient than doing "normal" missions).
2 month out and this game is still holding almost 350,000 players, I can't imagine any significant amount players are abusing this system and as someone that doesn't have a bunch of time on my hands, their design isn't really too bad, I bought one warbond and almost have the second after only about 3 hours of just playing normally. And the other big thing is that you don't have to grind, because the warbonds don't go away. The "unfun" of the grind is solely self-inflicted in this case. Yeah the system is there to break, but its up to you to break it. That's like buying an iPhone, purposely breaking the screen and then complaining to Apple that the screen isn't strong enough
@@kip_c I mean, I've yet to actively go super credit farming and I've bough 3 armors and am halfway to my second warbond, and I've only got 40 hours in the game. Expecting this to be anything more than maybe 20k people is a little absurd and I guarantee it was done because it was a bug, not the intended way for the economy to function. I doubt the devs were like "lets make a system where you can close the game and reload to farm credits" Its an exploit that only breaks the system as much as you let it. Don't engage, system doesn't break. Simple concept really. Now if the warbonds were limited time, then we'd be talking a whole different matter where grinding in necessary unless you spend real money. The current (and now patched out) system allows for everyone to experience all the content as long as play time allows.
Seems like for some gamers the fun comes from breaking the game rather than playing it. It’s a weird mentality to me, most of my fun comes from engaging with the game as it was intended and only using exploits as a last resort when fair play becomes unenjoyable. Even in that case I’d rather just take a break and go back to it when I’m ready to engage with it straight up again.
On 1000% those are the same people that become speedrunners, they enjoy breaking the games. But no one is going around saying the everyone is going to beat Mario 64 in 20 minutes or less just because of the few speedrunners that find that fun. I feel like Frosts position is based on someone that very openly enjoys survival games the most, where all you do is grind for the next thing. This is a game about having fun, not about the cosmetics you unlock, and he turned it into that.@@KickinRadTopHat
@@KickinRadTopHat There is literally no need to do this. There is no massive grind and the gameplay is fun. Also the developers would have patched it out literally months ago if they were concerned.
It seems like a simple enough fix. Once the super credits are picked up they just shouldn't spawn again. Even if you couldn't finish the mission or get disconnected, you reload the map but there's a marker indicating X resource has already been collected.
I thought the double cheeseburger analogy was going to be used to compare a few people using coupons being the same as a few people farming super credits. Some can, but most wont, and they will still enjoy what they paid for.
I thought that part was implied, but I think the end point was that even without exploit farming the game might be a bit too generous with the premium currency so it might not work to have the exploiters offset by sales.
Yes the game that sold 8 million copies at a 40 dollar price point with a 100 million dollar budget is going to shut down because super credits are too easy to farm. What are you talking about?
OhDough was right, this video is VERY misleading and make me ask myself if you even played this game 💀 I mean come on 30-100 hours for super credit and you didn’t have enough?
I understand that you CAN do this to get more Medals/Super Credits, but it doesn't even look fun. Why not just play the game and earn the currency at a decent rate? The game is fun, just play it,
I realized after that statement came out that I was doing this unintentionally. I typically avoid buying premium currency or special editions, etc, but lately I'll purchase a currency pack or soundtrack for games I really enjoy just to support the developer.
I feel like you're mostly right... outside of the time investment. You would be right if major orders didn't exist, which work as a kind of passive medal income. I have 78 hours in the game- I've gotten everything relevant/non-cosmetic out of all of the premium warbonds, and I've almost cleared the regular warbond. The ideas are generally right, but also, I don't think it's nearly so bad as you've put it out to be. I've never even considered buying super credits outside of supporting the studio- I've had no issue clearing out content quickly and efficiently. (No, I haven't farmed outside of running a lot of maps.)
Given the opportunity a community will optimize all the fun out of a game. While it's not an elegant solution one of the ways this problem could be fixed or "mitigated" is by putting a cap on the amount of currency a player can hold at any given time. This forces players to spend their medals and SCs as opposed to hoarding them. The problem is WHERE do you place this cap? A variant of this idea would be to put a daily limit on currency that can be farmed while leaving currency that is paid for alone.
Something I think people miss regarding long-term economic effects is, once you have enough currency to purchase everything, then you are cutting off the carrot from the stick. Games like Helldivers 2 aren't about the ending, but more about "the friends we made along the way". If players want to take advantage of gathering currency instead of enjoying the ride than that does kind of defeat the overall vibe of it. But in this instance, I wouldn't blame Arrowhead for the way people play the game. If anything, congrats to their studio for making two different kinds of games at the same time, a shooter and a farming simulator.
The game is more successful than anyone could have imagined as is and you found a flaw with the fact that players are able to cut down on the grind and enjoy the game?
I hate when this quote is used as if it's the fault of the players. This phrase was coined with the intent to make developers aware that if they put in a reward structure, they should make sure that the intended way to play is also the most optimal way in terms of rewards. Not to blame players for wanting to play optimally. The reason for this is because optimizing your rewards is human nature. And you'd be a fool if you want to try and fight that.
It's a game design issue. People WILL optimise the fun out of a game if they have the chance. It's a common trait for humans to try to optimise a task for best results, even if that doesn't end up being the most fun or engaging way to do it. It's impossible to change this, so developers have the job of working around this problem to try to make the most obviously efficient way to play and the most obviously fun way to play the same.
It's inevitable that some players will optimize the fun out of any game with optimizations available, but in the case of games where those optimizations save real-world money or cut out significant amounts of artificial time gating, you can't really blame the players for it. That's a consequence of designing the game such that sub-optimal play is less fun unless you spend extra money, since that creates a direct incentive to optimize the game - even if that optimization isn't particularly fun to do - for the sake of getting that extra fun for free. Ideally, games should be designed so that optimization *is* fun. That's a vague goal that's often a lot easier said than done, especially once you get into the world of unexpected exploits, but that's not an excuse for deliberately designing games in a way that incentivizes playstyles that aren't fun for the sake of optimization, and that's exactly what monetization does. Whenever you let players pay to "skip the grind," you conversely give them a chance to feel like they're saving money by grinding. The two are inescapably linked.
I feel that due to the game being full price and being a good game does mean the game isnt necessary to have a perfect monetization model yet. Better to have a good game than good money systems
True. Like none of this matters when you're in the situation of Suicide Squad: KtJL. Barely a few thousands players is infinitely more a problem for making money than millions of players with Helldivers 2.
That ending point about wanting to have a discussion about monetization is actually one I'd be very interested to have more often. The reality is the cost of a game can be overshadowed by the fact that we have so many example's of game's that work without them and are equally if not more fun in cases. So why go into a game that requires payment upfront, and then as asks for More payment? The snap to reason is Greed, which...yes, is true in most cases nowadays (80% give or take). But there are situation's where people need a long term amount of money because they require it to keep themselves running. Especially as the price of inflation rises, and studio's need to keep up with a scale of never ending growth. Now that is actually the main point of the problem as a whole, needing to chase a never ending system of infinite growth and altering prices. But that's a bigger problem, and one more complicated than a simple youtube commenter can figure out weather it's you or me. If you think you have an idea for a better system, open up a history book and see if it hasn't been tried already. There's positive and negatives to every approach you make, and I've long since learned that it's easier to approach thing's with an open mind then just assume I know the answer. I'm not saying that mean's I'm gonna play a F2P game made by a multi-million/billion corporation and say I'd have fun with it, as the cash shop keeps popping up asking me to spend thousands of dollars in it. But it also means I'm going to outright dismiss a game on the basis of it's practices without atleast trying it out first. That said though if a Paid game come's along and asks for money up front while asking me for more money later, it's gonna get harder and harder to justify a game's purchase if the game keeps on making they're economy's murkier and murkier. At that point I'd just end up sticking to classics, because to this day I can still get enjoyment out of things I already paid for and don't have to pay for again.
Games like Helldivers make me feel so old. Super credits, loot drops, stuff starting with the word premium. Countless terms that are completely alien to me. I'm used to terms like, levels, lives, score etc.
Each mission in Helldivers 2 is basically a level, in which each player gets 5 lives to beat. You're then scored based on how quickly you beat the level and how many secrets you found. Super Credits, Medals, and all those other resources are just different colored coins, but instead of buying lives and access to new levels, you buy guns and armor so you're better equipped for the next level, which you can initiate at any time. Also the game is a one-time payment, and the in-game real money items are completely spandrel and ignorable. Any questions?
@@00101001000000110011 Maybe if you exclusively shop at brick and mortar stores and dont watch youtube videos or read articles concerning the games industry, which by the very nature of being a commentor on this youtube channel makes it very hard to understand. For starters you would need to be completely detached from the multiplayer shooter genre and not know what CoD is. That by itself seems impossible to me.
Nobody has cared about scores in 35 years, nobody has cared about lives in 25 years, nobody has cared about levels in 20 years. I call BS on this entire post as nothing more than a “things were better in my day!” Whine. I’m GenX and have played games since the damn Atari. My generation is a damn plague on everything. It’s funny that this game does all 3 of those concepts better than most games in decades, but hey, I wouldn’t want to get in the way of a good holier than thou rant about something you know dick all about.
@@evilducks3710 Yeah I'm not sure I can trust this guy to somehow be using the internet and still not hear of the core monetisation debate. The terminology gap is especially weird, we're talking a gap of 1995 to around 2015. saying "the prefix premium- is alien to me" is also a bit too obtuse.
It's an interesting conundrum: Back in HELLDIVERS 1, I found myself in a jetpack or snow shoes on high difficulty maps sprinting around snatching up Samples and avoiding combat. This was certainly productive for unlocking upgrades, but it got soulless and repetitive and dull very quickly......and I couldn't stop. By the end of it, standing atop a heap of unlocked superweapons, I realized that some of them weren't even part of my playstyle and I'd never use them. What's more, I'd killed my drive to play. I wanted to eat from the leveling system and eat from the Sample upgrades and eat from the co-op combat organically again, but two of those systems were made pointless because of my hunger for power and completionism. Thankfully, the devs built in a "Reset Everything" button and I pressed it. For me, efficiently grinding out upgrades is still grinding. I don't care if it is an option available to all players, I won't be doing it personally, and I would caution players against it. You just might kill a major reason you were playing in the first place.
The issue with the vast majority of live service games is that they're trying to build a game to support a monetization model instead of building a monetization model to support a game.
Exactly. They're not games, they're scams wearing games as skins.
Thank god for Path of Exile
I see you get it. They're leeches wearing the skin of games.
While thats true, I think its also important to dig deeper ask WHY they are making games to support a monetization model.
The issue with all industries is the profit motive. Why does a game need to support a monetization model? Why can't they just make a good game that draws people to play it? Because investors want to see ever-increasing returns. This is enshittification, and it was around long before games, as shown by the McD's anecdote.
It's not going to stop until we successfully re-align our values as a society to be more humane, sustainable, and empathetic. Once we do that, we can say goodbye to all kinds of parasites, like landlords, scalpers, and pretty much any kind of salesmen.
They just fixed this exploit in a way that seems fair to me.
You can only get super credits from a map once per instance (so you get the super credits if you disconnect but when you reconnect you don't get them again if you pick them up again). This doesn't punish regular players but removes the cheesy farming.
That's awsome to hear honestly, It's nice to know how vids like this is to inform both players and makers on these things. His intro bit does alot, considering the more greed I see in games and people keep defaulting to "inflation" as a way to describe why it's a thing. Inflation is a factor, and exists obviously. But for all the times i see people who make this argument as "basic economics" refuse the other basic understanding how bloated or artificially raised that inflation is. I don't mind fun little "cheese" but some things can be hurtful if not touched on and as it was described...the best time to fix this stuff is now.
From the sound of Frost's numbers, that would still allow fast farming, just not *as* fast. More importantly, imo, being forced to run around looking for stuff on new maps is a lot more like standard gameplay than optimizing a route for a specific map, so even someone on the grindset is going to have more fun and burn themselves out less quickly.
Sounds like a good change, and if the grinding problem is still too big they could maybe do diminishing returns on super credit/medal spawns on new maps if your recent time per map is excessively low, making it optimal to go play a normal game as intended every few runs.
@@SparkSovereignYeah, I think the biggest issue is when "grinding" and "gameplay" divide. A good game will make it so that, in order to grind, you have to play. The exploit here was making it so "grinding" consisted of quitting and reloading a game over and over again, which isn't what gameplay is.
Since this exploit is fixed, grinding looks like gameplay again. Load in a mission, search and explore, fight, finish, load a new mission.
It absolutely makes sense.
But calling it "not exploiting" sounds a bit disconnected.
Still I understand and honestly agree with the main point to the video.
@@SparkSovereign For me at least, the problem isn't the farming itself necessarily, but the not finishing the mission; which this solve at least discourages. Since (as I understand it) there is a total maximum "player effect" that we can have on objectives, calculated based on the total players online or slt (IIRC), players not finishing missions actively hurts the war effort. Considering we failed the last few objectives last week, getting less players to abandon missions for farming is worth it to me.
5:30 Funnily enough, they stealth-patched this, if you're quitting the game to keep and replay the same map to get SC from the same spots over and over... you now get nothing on your second run trough.
You now have to go to a new map and find new points of interest if you want to earn more SC in game.
It's great, stops farming from breaking the economy while leaving normal players unaffected.
well that just encourage the gameplay loop of loading the easiest mission, ignore everything but POI, and quit the mission after you have collected everything, objective be damned
@@sumdude5172 it's fine like that though, they intended for the currency to be able to be grinded and completing the missions still helps the main goals.
Didn't even know. But on the other hand, i haven't reset before, so it kinda is expected
What happens if your connection goes out or the game crashes?
@@Pablud3S hours of mindless grind for a Warbond that won't even expire as well. I keep telling people this, chill, enjoy the game you have all the time in the world.
this is clearly is an exploit, no game has an intended feature where you alt f4 out of it and go back in to reload the same map the 20th time without completing it
The main problem I have with the speed farming method for SC and medals is... I earn enough of both playing normally that I can just play the game normally and not have to pay.
Your time calculations for how many hours it takes to unlock a warbond are missing the fact that each warbond has SC in it.
How much?
@@RickJaegerSo far it's been 300 credits back (unlocked with medals) from a 1000 credit purchase. The free one that everyone gets has something like 650 credits unlocked with medals.
So I suppose time wise that would be Time = (1000+700(N-1)) ÷ Rh
where Rh is the hourly rate of SC earnings, and N is the total number of warbonds in question.
Also, I just don't think most players' time is so cheap that they are willing to do what's basically brain dead repetitive work for 8.5 dollars an hour in their free time. Especially when that 8.5 dollars is paid in in-game Monopoly cash.
Your argument is almost good, just missing a two words "for me".
"The progression is gaat enough through regular gameplay, for me".
Your experience may not be the same as those of others.
Additionally the medals cap is reached a lot faster than the credits for a war bond. Which tells us two things: The cap is stupid and the credits are too slow.
I mean if you are just mindlessly grinding go ahead, but most of us play the game to focus on doing the major orders and objectives. Like 80% of the player base was on the last bot planet during that major order so clearly the majority of the player base is more focused on the galactic war than grinding
This exactly. I think the game itself is just good enough that most people are there to play it rather than grind for gear.
On the other hand, there is the long term possibility of fatigue with the major order, which can invalidate this point later down the line.
Even now, many divers were already in "what were we doing here?" mode after being asked to defend 10 planets we supposedly already spent efforts locking down, only to see them attacked later.
If Frost keeps talking down about Helldivers 2 like this, he's gonna need to change the name of his show xD Those two videos are the hottest cold takes yet.
The McDouble is a good analogy for monetization built around obscuring value. Since the $1.40 two-cheese, two-patty option was named the same as the former $1 option, people didn't order the Double Cheese because they wanted the extra cheese (at least they didn't want it enough to pay more). They ordered it because they didn't know about the change. They wanted the $1 burger but wound up accidentally paying for the slice of cheese until they learned to order McDouble. The names of the menu items were deliberately confusing to get some extra pennies from people ordering the wrong item by mistake.
"It's not an exploit or a bug." With all due respect, I very much think it's an exploit.
it is absolutely an exploit, it's not intentional design from any angle
I came here to say this as well. For sure an exploit.
It is so very blatantly an exploit, I don't understand how Frost thinks its anything but, and then acting like it's a big sign of a problem in the game when the correct answer is just... fix the exploit, which Helldivers 2 appears to already have done.
Yea, that was a very surprising statement from Frost. It is absolutely not intended to be able to farm the same locations and map over, and over.
That's what confused me too. How would this not be considered an exploit? The devs recently fixed this, so in their eyes, it was obviously considered one...
"you will earn enough credits to unlock the next path in progression of your choosing just by working through what you already have access to, no need to worry about buying if you just play the game (especially since you can't buy the medals)"
"but I need to unlock everything right now :c"
I really don't understand why some people think like this
Short grind is still grind, people will still pay to skip it. People also need to educate themselves about said grind, which as you can see in those video examples, a few thousand people is a drop in the playerbase ocean of millions of purchasers.
It's somewhat understandable when they add new weapons and tweak (usually nerf) the stats of the old ones. The only weapon I feel that is 'imbalanced' in the warbond is likely the Scorcher, which takes a long while to get the medals for (but it's part of the free warbond/progression), and the Dominator, which requires you to buy a warbond ingame (you also get the same warbond with the deluxe edition, and you can of course pay to unlock it) and investing some medals.
I think that people are FOMO-ing in Helldivers 2 partially because we're used to doing so in these games, and I don't really know how to have a live service without either microtransactions or subscriptions. Of course, making a game a live service is a choice, but so far this game is tilted far more to the "good" side than the bad side, i.e. we're getting content and changes made to the game often enough to make monetization seem reasonable.
Of course, if it turns out that everyone who has an account gets all the medals for all the major orders that succeed, we will have a problem with "medal whales" returning to the game with loads to spend but nothing to spend it on unless they pay money to unlock the warbonds - but so far that hasn't been a problem.
@@anderskronquist9750medals cap out at 250, if you don’t log back in to spend them that’s all you’ll have.
@@astratan2238 Huh, good to know! Never have let them accumulate that high so I never hit that limit.
I know right. I mean there is something to be said for getting access to what seems to be an overpowered weapon before it's nerfed just to play around with it. I know I wish I'd gotten a chance to try out the Railgun or breaker pre-nerf after seeing videos of it in action. in that case though I just was not playing the game quick enough to earn the needed metals and Req.
I'm old fashioned on this. I paid $40 for a game and have had a great time. I got my moneys worth. I own all the warbonds without farming or buying SC and have enough for the next one. The economy is pretty generous even without farming, so i do wonder how long this game will last after people move on.
The thing is this argument relies on "I'm only playing this game for the pretty stuff" and not "I'm playing this game cause its fun". It kind of screams Cod MW2 (2009) vs CoD MW2 (2022). People played OG because it was fun and had great gameplay, the red tiger camos and shit was a sign of status in the game and meant you knew what you were doing, now its a money symbol. People that enjoy a game because its fun, don't stop playing when they max out on unlockable content, they continue. And if the game wasn't just a fun base, they wouldn't be pulling ~300k people every weekend since launch 2 months out. ~300k people aren't logging on every weekend to just grind for cosmetics.
@@TheRealSonicBeats Yeah, I have every warbond and a fair chunk of progression along all four, long since capped requisition slips with no stratagems to buy (though the new ship module tiers help by costing reqs), and like
Even when I had little to actually unlock, I just didn't even care. I just kept playing, because the game is just fun. Whenever the population does wind down, you know what Arrowhead will do? Scale down the servers to reduce costs. They didn't axe Helldivers 1 because of low population, and HD1 is also still being left online with its own major orders and galactic war still going.
Arrowhead are not going to shut this game down. HD1 set the precedent for that. But I also don't think HD2 is gonna shrink as much as HD1 did either, because we're two months past release now and it still regularly pulls about 300k players on average, with spikes to 600k still.
It's almost like making a good fucking game that's built to be fun will retain players more than your FOMO bullshit. Helldivers 2, Deep Rock Galactic, Sea of Thieves, they all continue to pull a ton of players because they're just fun to play, and those players are all willing to throw money at the devs to show support even if they _can_ grind it all out for free. People do buy SCs with real money, quite a lot, specifically to show support even though it's easy to get SCs for free.
I feel like talking about a Helldivers "Economy" is more than a little meaningless.
There's no trading anything unless you count bringing equipment your friend doesn't have, then telling your friend kill you so they can pick it up and play with it. Nothing will disappear as the Warbonds are permanent and you can choose what order you unlock them. You can earn nearly everything in game just by playing and it can take you less than 200 Hours if you've got halfway decent luck.
I have 180 hours logged as of writing, level 63 and am less than 100 Super Credits away from unlocking my third Warbond. I've got enough Medals saved up after completing the other Warbonds, I'll probably be able to max out the new one once it's unlocked. Hell, I'm almost done upgrading my ship AFTER the updates which add another tier costing half your maximum Regular Currency, 250 Regular Samples, 150 Rare Samples and 15 Super Samples because so long as you collect the samples as you play, you'll have a healthy amount in the bank. This isn't the seventeen layer intentionally obscured 13-D Jenga Mousetrap Extravaganza like Diablo: Immoral. It's a very simple "Play Game, get stuff, unlock stuff to play with, play game with new stuff, Repeat" Loop.
I've spent 0$ on this game (as a friend bought it for me) and haven't farmed anything at all. I just play the game with my friends on a semi-regular basis.
The game isn't about making money, it's about having fun. Regardless of what weapon, armor, stratagems or upgrades you have, you won't be having fun if you're just awful at playing the game and die until mission failure every time you dive. Unless people are selling PS/Steam Accounts with maxed out everything to people who don't want to put in work, just to play the game and have fun with every tool at their disposal, I genuinely don't understand what the fuss is about.
Does Frost just not like Helldivers? It's fine if not, it's not everyone's cup of libertea, but you don't gotta go searching for any soft spot to punch so you can cry "HAHA, SEE, I WAS RIGHT, I TOLD YOU" when they crumble from being punched in the baby-makers. It's a Live Service Game, which means eventually it will go away, yes. All your time and money will have been for naught but the memories you can look back on with a smile.
But don't all good things come to an end eventually?
He's barely played the game. Level 16 and only low difficulties. Perhaps even skipping side points of interest which will result in having not enough game currencies which he is trying to fix by farming trivial difficulty solo.
@@cattysplat While 30 hours might not be a lot for a live-service game, I think that's still a respectable amount of time to put into a game and to have opinions about it. At level 16, you have most of the stratagems available for purchase, and nothing suggested Frost exclusively plays on low difficulties; he was playing on trivial for the purposes of showing off the farm. Perhaps Frost is making mountains out of molehills, but I have no reason to dismiss him out of hand even if I disagree with him. He's very explicit about just doing this to try and make a point; I think it's taking his arguments in bad faith to try and speculate about how he actually plays the game.
The reason no-one talks about it is because firstly there's no priority to farm as (currently) playing for free is reasonable and warbond prices are also cheap to get alot of content. Heck, I bought the most recent one more just to support the devs because of how respectful to players Helldivers is compared to other games.
The other reason is farming is painfully boring and repetitive compared to normal gameplay, which means unless you're the type of person to find the Destiny 1 loot cave thrilling, you're unlikely to do more than a couple of farm runs before returning to regular gameplay.
Yeah like you get 3/10s of a warbond back by just buying a premium warbond so far right out of the gate. I got the energy weapon and the explosive warbonds with only buying the cheapest amount of super credits while I got the rest in game.
I don't want to grind and be bored as hell, I play Helldivers to play the major orders, not grind for hours to get premium currency.
I would have been tempted to do this just to get enough medals (400+) to get my paws on the Scorcher. Fortunately, I just unlocked the Dominator instead and am having fun with that one instead, and I don't think I'll be going into the new warbond that just dropped in a while - so I will (eventually) just play enough to unlock it.
My hope is that the monetization in Helldivers 2 is enough to keep the lights on and the 'campaign' going at its current, IMO light-weight tilt to the monetization side. While I don't foresee playing it forever, I would like to jump back in every now and then just to light some bugs on fire with my friends.
I just want to say i have found caches of SC up to 100 and why would you want to farm SC if you aren't playing the game? Why get the premium rewards if you are taking away the game out of the equation?
Some people just really like to exploit games and that is their fun. I can also imagine that if you do 1 hour of grinding and then go back to playing normally, you can keep up with the pay-to-play live service model.
In the original Pokémon game, if you chose Charmander as your starter, you pretty much have to max your party to level 10 to take on the first gym. There were only bug and normal type Pokémon available to the player before that gym which are at a disadvantage to the rock type (in gen 1 red/blue games). I remember being set back by this compared to my brother who chose Squirtle as he breezed through the gym, and I had to grind levels for like 4 hours. Let me tell you that if I could have paid to get a water type Pokémon I think I would have or would have used an exploit that lets my Charmander use water gun. Technically, this grind was part of the game and it sucked because all foreword progress was halted at this choke point.
because i want to have the same cool gear as my friends. but i dont have the time to play that many maps and i dont have the disposable income to shovel out for super credits.
not shitting on the devs for this. they patched it out and i ate my fill. is what it is. just pointing out that there's reasons besides "hurr durr exploits lmoa" why someone would wanna do this. some people are adults with jobs and budgets that just wanna play games with their friends. so if there's gonna be a grind i prefer the shorter grind to the longer grind.
@@monolithichashies7477 how lovely, another incentive to "accidentally" frag your friends 🤣
Because people will optimized the fun out of a game, if it makes it easier to reach their end goal...
@@mysterious___1 i didn't ask
Talking about an economy seems misguided in the face of there not being any player-to-player trading. Nothing is collapsing. A few people are doing an exploit that affects them and only them.
Pretty much. There's not really an issue here at least.
I think the issue is more that if everyone starts doing this then no one is going to see a need to buy any premium currency and then the devs can't afford to keep updating the game.
Except when it doesn't. When more people participate in this grind and essentially make the balance of the money system defunct.
100%. Saying "the economy seems collapsing" seems either naive at best, or yellow journalism at worst. But I love this series otherwise
@@kevinjackson7169But they already patched the exploit buddy, it can't do that
The double cheeseburger is a horrible deal for the money. The two cheese burger meal cost less and gives you more.
false, it costs more space in the foorboards that we're definitely going to clean sometime next week we just haven't had the time and we'll get to it once we have the chance but for now either just lay your feet on it or push it to a corner or something
(those boxes are never leaving that car)
Sure on a purely quantitative level. But the bread to meat & cheese ratio does not capture the sheer pleasure of biting into a double cheeseburger.
McDonald's isn't fit to feed to your worst enemies dog, so no good deals at all.
more sugary bread? ...who t f cares that's the part of it giving people diabetus
@@Soapy_Papoose Once a year I crave a Big Mac, get incredible shits afterwards, and call it a year.
7:12 Frost, dude, I love ya and respect ya, but you can't compare a paid currency to one that's completely separated from it. The samples and requisition slips are separated from the premium currency *NOT* by not being purchasable, but by being used for *entirely separate things* for which you cannot pay real money for. *Stratagems and ship modules are a point-based unlock system with a different coat of paint.*
As for the rest of the video...
Do you really believe it wasn't an exploit? C'mon. It should be pretty clear that's not an intended method for obtaining super credits, especially since you mentioned how the devs themselves publicly stated the expected/intended amounts players would find.
Look, we get it, you don't like Helldivers, and I think a large part of that is cause it's a live service. You're predisposed to not like the game and you're entitled to your opinion. What's bothersome, though, is letting that bleed into more objective assessments of the state of the games industry, and the misrepresentation of what the example you're using actually does. The devs said themselves "Here, here's exactly what we expect from our players" and your conclusion is "if only devs made things clearer things would be better"?
Just pick a different example. Trust me, there's plenty. Stop letting Helldivers live rent-free in your head.
It's obvious that he dislikes the game over all else.
Meh, you can spend your time doing meaningless grind in helldivers 2, but I don't know if this kind of behaviour will really be that common as long as having fun gives you enough upgrades regularly...
That's my exact argument. The fun comes from the gameplay, but if your sacrificing the gameplay to just engage with the monetization system in the most abusive way you can (lowest level farming credits for cosmetics) than the lack of enjoyment is fully on you. A game with ~300k players during the weekends isn't going to have a huge portion of people breaking the economy system.
@@TheRealSonicBeats Economy system? Do you think this is an mmo with a marketplace and player trading or something? There is no economy, people grinding super credits literally affects no one else and it saves them a 40 hour grind to unlock a single warbond. Way better to spend a single hour grinding and then enjoying the next 39 hours with warbond gear.
@@mace8983 I mean, we're talking about the economy in the game. Economy systems in games are everything not just a real-world trading platform. You pay money, you get SC, that is an economy, of which some players are breaking by powerfarming SC.
@@mace8983 Also, economy wasn't my word used to classify this games currency, it was Frosts.
@@mace8983 40 hours to unlock a warbond? I got each one saved up for in around 18-24 hours just running missions after work with my mates playing for around 4 hours at a time.
I dunno, man, I feel like Helldivers has definitely sold enough money to recuperate costs without needing microtransactions on top of everything. Feels like we're definitely at the point where publishers do it because hey, everyone else does it and as long as it's not egregiously pay to win most won't even complain.
There are people who are now fully adult, old enough to drink and vote, who weren't even born yet when Oblivion's horse armour released. A lot of people literally cannot remember an industry before this being normalized.
Pretty sure the lead designer has said to consider the micro-transactions to be a tip, they are fine without them and they are not even necessary if you just play the game. It just allows him to buy Warhammer figures.
I don't know the kind of figures Arrowhead made with selling the game upfront of course, but that's not an infinite well. Games are expensive to make and maintain and after a certain amount of time those up front sales alone aren't enough anymore to keep the servers running. It's not being put in there just to shake money out of you, is my point. There are totally games where that's the whole point of course, but I wouldn't count Helldivers 2 among them.
@@00101001000000110011 Of course, yeah. I wish more games would go this route, honestly.
Point is, games are still a business at the end of the day. Even if they go down that road later they can't just snip their fingers and make it happen.
I mean, sure, they COULD do that. But so long as people are shelling out for the War Bonds, why would they?
If nothing else, they probably ENJOY creating new content, and this is how they get paid for it.
@@This-Was-Spartathe game has already been made or is Helldivers 3 out yet ?
Helldivers is fun to actually play , a lot of games now feel like a slog
What games do you say feel like a slog?
Exactly, I don't feel like I have to grind in Helldivers 2. I just play, try to get as much on the map, and do my damndest to extract. over time I get to unlock stuff. And if I feel the need to spend money, sure. I'll throw them a few bones.
nah hell divers isn't anything special, it too turns into a slog.
All games have players where the grind doesn't feel like grind
@@bearwynn If you play a game only to mindlessly grind then ofc it's gonna turn into a slog.
Suicide Squad? I mean I havent played it but the consensus seems that way. Especially with the joker DLC
bit of a note, you generally are supposed to check PoIs as you go about; they have Samples, Medals, SCs, Requisition Slips, ammunition, grenades, stims, and sometimes power weapons like the AMR, Railgun, Arc Thrower, etc. You mainly gain Medals through finishing missions, which is also how you get most of your req slips and is the only way you gain exp.
to put it simply, *play the game to get the rewards.* these sorts of cheese strats tend to get removed or gutted, much like how safe mode railgun got kneecapped for being no risk high reward with a shieldgen.
Anyone else saw the thumbnail and went "damn is this another HOT take on helldivers cause the last one really didn't go over so well"
Yeah, I thought the same
100%
It's less hot than the last one, i think. He's very neutral about his view of the game in this one, too.
It _does_ present a very real problem, though it's more about FOMO than a crashed economy. Once this game has been out for a few months, there'll be a lot more warbonds to choose from. If you play actively the entire time, this doesn't really mean much to you, but if you _stop_ playing for a while, suddenly you've fallen behind and you'll need to play twice as much to catch up to the current pace. That's to say nothing of _new_ players who might buy this game in a year or so, when there's dozens of warbonds that they have to choose from.
@@LEOTomegane not really though. the devs and CEO shown that they listen to the players on both good and bad takes. if the game last long enough to have over 10 warbonds ain't nothing stopping them for saying "so we heard the players and we decided to let people buy medals finally."
Like i really want to pay money for more cool toys NOW and they said no work for it you will have more fun that way.
Hell in the future they may just lower the amount of medals needed for unlocking the stuff in the warbonds to 1 to 5 medals. That way players will still have to play the game and have fun without wasting to much time on items that been in the shop for months/years
@@LordKore letting people buy medals won't solve the new player issue. It might actually make it worse; it could look like they're trying to incentivize paying money to skip a grind that gets more and more daunting every month.
Think of, for example, MMO expansion purchases. With every new expansion that comes out, the price for the total game increases. It's like that.
I play this game like 3 to 4 times a week for about an hour or 2. And I have mostly everything I want without needing to grind. I just have fun playing! Best live service I've played.
10:01 - $1 for 7 minutes is slightly less than $10/hr, which is minimum wage is a not-insignificant number of states. Just throwing that out there without further comment.
Came here to mention that, glad someone already had.
More than the minimum in others. Still 7.25 where I live.
@@maromania7 Yep. =\
The most generous game shows us how stupid the progression systems are in live-service games.
good job, Arrowhead.
This is another case of, gamers will optimize the fun out of a game.
@@kip_c You clearly have no clue about the context of that quote.
You didn't provide context so that's on you buddy.
@@CarrotConsumer Dind't think google was a to hard of a concept for you, but look up "GD Column 17: Water Finds a Crack" by Soren Johnson
How is it optimizing the fun out of a game? You would rather spend 40 hours grinding 1000 super credits to unlock a single warbond, instead of spending an hour or two grinding and then enjoying the next 38-39 hours of gameplay with warbond gear?
@@denzelwright8475 Why would i play the game naturally when the weapon variety objectively sucks? Why would i spend 40 hours grinding with the only free weapon in the game that's worth a damn just to unlock 3 more weapons, when i could just spend 1 hour instead and enjoy the rest of my time with better weapon variety? The lack of weapon variety is a real flaw with the game. Most people don't spend hundreds of hours on a single game, most of the time they spend about 50 hours and then they move on to something else. Grinding for 2-3 hours to unlock all the weapons the game has to offer and then enjoy the game fully for the next 45 with actual decent weapon variety is just the smartest, most fun way to spend the 50 hours.
Frost seems really dedicated to playing an arcadey 4 person co-op as a single player grindfest, sure the warbonds come out every month but they're not going anywhere. I've taken a break from Helldiving because my gf recently got Sky: COTL and I'm playing with her but wow the monetization in that game really made me love Helldivers even more.
"They're not going anywhere" is the important part
It doesn't really matter that they're adding more content monthly since there's no time limit/fomo
Just more content for new players to unlock whenever they get around to it
That's the part I like; I'm tired of time limits on loot, and when I first played HELLDIVERS and opened the Warbonds menu, I thought to myself, "oh, great, now I gotta quickly grind for these so I can get 'em before they expire." Hearing that they're not going away was a huge relief to me.
Everyone who has watched this video has been reported to their local Democratic officer.
The entire watch through of this video I had a game in my mind named Foxhole, an MMO that doesn’t have microtransactions and yet still exists, because it doesn’t need them, all it needs is new people buying and playing the game. The reason why I’m not very concerned about Helldivers is because that seems to be where they want to make money from, not the micropayments, but from the actual people buying the whole game. I was also unconvinced by Frost’s arguments that it must become worse simply because people want to skip the grind, it feels like an argument in search of a leg to stand on, a reason why this live service game is bad, even if it isn’t right now it must eventually become one, right? It points to an overly cynical view in my eyes, because I remember the first Helldivers, which had all the gear locked behind paywalls. Arrowhead intentionally created a different system when they could very easily have kept the old one, but why? Well, I’d argue it’s because they have realized the market as it is now, that every other live service game has their gear behind a paywall of some form of another, usually far too high for an actual player to pass, especially for the later gear, but Helldivers lets you see what you are paying for, it lets you choose the warbond, there are no secrets about what’s in it, so you get to choose the one that speaks to you most. This tells me that they are exploiting the market, but not the buyer in it, they are exploiting how the other games are far worse in their practices, and using that itself as marketing material. They have no reason to gouge players who are walking into the game because they are doing so in great numbers. Sorry for the long post, I am quite tired, and just writing my thoughts instead of condensing them
Foxhole is still very niche, I'm surprised by how little I see of it in English-speaking spaces.
But I hear it is some degree of successful in other regions, especially China. I'm guessing new Chinese players is what is keeping that game alive?
The "sell more copies of the base game" approach can work in the short term. But that dries up (or slows to a trickle) once most potentially interested players own a copy. At that point, you need some kind of revenue stream to continue operating the servers, let alone produce new content.
@@RumpusImperator Look up Foxhole, it has existed for years, and has zero other monetization strategies besides getting people to just buy the friggin game, the belief that micro-transactions are neccessary to prop a game up is false, and only helps executives
@@RumpusImperatorFunny thing is, go look at terraria and its devs. The stream of folk buying terraria never seems to cease
Their advantage is a lack of needing servers to host the game directly, which in lies the true cost of live-service games and the root of the problem at large.
Man, it feels good to be a normal human who just plays games to have fun sometimes.
Here's a wild idea: A single upfront cost for the game, all cosmetics, if any, in the game are earnable by playing the game well, allow players to host their own servers.
Sure thing, that will be $200 please.
Oh, you're wanting to 'regress' games to before they had easy access to the internet.
Congratulations, you've stripped out one of the more interesting appeals of Helldivers 2, that it has an ongoing, persistent storyline shared and contributed to by all players, with ongoing development that can shake things up once it starts feeling stale.
@@emwZEEK Honestly, I'd rather pay a crapton of money upfront and have the prestige items be a testament to my skill, not my luck.
Congratulations, you have described Helldivers 2, minus self-host unfortunately
What happened to The Crew will soon happen to every big game if we don't take action.
I think it will happen to every big game
& that's why that new legislation to stop videogames from being destroyed after the servers go down needs more support.
Second wind should bring light to it as well
what happened to the crew? taken offline or something?
@@harrymitchell3885taken offline and removed from libraries, Edit: I heard.
Live services are the “throw it at the wall and see what sticks”
thats how we gotten some the best things we have in life.
"throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks" is a much better strategy when you're throwing small cheap things to decide what to invest in, rather than massive projects that cost hundreds of millions.
To be more vulgar about it: "force it down your throat and see what you don't cough back up"
That's how I feel at least when they try and put it into every game
Publisher tactics is just "Put in an egregious monetization system and, if people object, tone it back to merely extreme and frustrating so that people will thank us for listening to them."
AB test, simplest optimisation strategy there is, only problem is the metric being optimised.
I'm one of those people that will not spend money beyond the purchase price. I genuinely don't care about the "value", because the moment the experience becomes monetized, it has no value. It's just another skinner box.
I don't understand. That didn't look like a balance problem to me, that seemed more like an unintended exploit. Nobody says that they game is unbalanced because you find an invulnerability exploit in an online shooter, you call the devs so they fix it.
Honesty, I’m all for the current current system’s generosity. Not engaging in the monetization outside of the $40.00 price point is a net benefit for me, and allows me to reserve any additional purchases of monetization elements in the future as a contribution to support the game itself if it continues to be of quality. And if such generosity results in the game not funding itself 2 or 5 or 10 years down the line, then it’ll just fade away like all live service games do whether they’re good OR bad. I just hope they create a public server infrastructure to continue the game’s functionality when that day comes so the community can take the wheel.
" I just hope they create a public server infrastructure to continue the game’s functionality when that day comes so the community can take the wheel." Has Sony Interactive Entertainment ever done that for any games they published? The only way that is going to happen is probably going to be reverse engineering and reimplementation.
@@kip_c I mean you couldn't call it pay to win anyway cause half the shit doesn't work due to the current pile of debilitating bugs. More like "Pay-To-Preform-Sub-Optimally". Lookin at you fire themed Warbond while the DoT bug is still unpatched.
@@kip_cyou can earn everything in the game for free in an extremely reasonable amount of time, and every unlockable thing in the game is more or less a side-grade to the starting equipment.
Calling Helldivers 2 P2W is like calling Team Fortress 2 P2W, in that yeah, it _kinda_ is in the loosest definition of the phrase, but at that point you're just coming up with excuses to not play instead of just admitting you're not interested in what the devs are serving.
Tangent: why do people do that? Why do people feel the need to defend their decision to _not_ play a game? A simple "It doesn't appeal to me" is more than fine.
@@ToxicAtom paying to have more options is pay2win, paying to get something sooner is pay2win, stop defending it
@@De_kaid I'd say if paying money gives you an advantage over other players, it's pay 2 win. In Helldivers 2, if you buy super credits, you aren't earning anything faster than other players since all the actual items are only unlocked with Requisition, Samples, and Medals, none of which can be purchased. As such, the game is not pay 2 win.
It is clearly an exploit.
I imagine that the best way to fix this is that you can randomize the map each time you re-enter the game, or retain the status of these items being gathered so they cant be obtained twice in a row.
I haven't paid an additional penny since buying the game. I have over 2k super credits, purchased cutting edge and democratic detonation (had steeled veterans for SC edition), and also a shitload of superstore armor.
Why?
I played the game. I didn't have to shell out money. I played the game and was rewarded.
Nice work. I agree that the conversation you're trying to start is an important one. Mind you I'm not the target audience. I'm old. I'm cheap and thus I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than play a game with any form of in-game monetization. Crucially I'm also bad at Fromsoft games (but have a great time getting mulched) so I have my gaming time already committed for the foreseeable future.
Well yeah, but a lot of these games are free to play. You should love them if it were just about being cheap. So obviously your feelings are not about that.
Agreed with Stephen here, I always HATED the live service formula, but absolutely loved how Helldivers 2 handles it, I’ve bought the game and haven’t spent a dime since most everything is affordable and the game is actually fun even without things that you can get for money. It’s less about the system itself and more about how it’s implemented.
@@StephenYuan Fair enough. Honestly I suppose I start out predisposed to find fault even if games are truly free to play.
Potentially the dumbest argument I ever read. That's like saying it doesn't matter that you got shot because others haven't been shot. @@StephenYuan
@@1IGGlol he didn't say that. Be nice. He said he agreed with the conversation but also shared that he wasn't the target audience because his habits are different. He didn't devalue the conversation or say that his way was better. He just shared. Not everyone likes to participate in internet arguments. Some people just like to make conversation. Chill, man.
I'm glad that I don't seem to get grabbed by bad reinforcement loops. Unless the game *is* the farming, a la EVE Online my old friend, then I don't want to be farming, I want to be playing the game. Doing the same mission over and over and over to farm the same loot drops isn't playing the game now is it so I don't feel any pull towards doing it.
How to solve this for the wider population, who the fuck knows.
Simple, engage with the game you paid for, instead of the submarket created in the game.
@@TheRealSonicBeatsthe submarket is where all the cool looking loot is though
Helldivers 2 is the first live service game where i dont feel the need to buy currency to get a new armor or to get a new pass because the currency is easily obtainable in game without mindlessly "farming".
180 hours in and i have bought the 3 premium warbonds and a bunch of the super store armors.
But, Helldivers doesn't have an economy. Nothing is traded, there's no transactions, and one currency is never exchanged for another.
Calling the mechanic an economy is a misnomer.
The problem with some live service games is that not everyone tries to make them fun.
There is a difference if you`re having fun for 30 hours per warbond in a game that was designed to be fun,
or suffering and slogging through another generic battle pass with 2 tracks (free, not free), because the game was designed that way to motivate micro(macro is some cases)-transactions.
I've managed to get all three premium warbonds using the Super Credits I pick up by playing normally. I even end up with plenty left over to buy the armor sets in the premium store.
I have no idea why people feel the need to speed farm them. Just play the game and you'll get the rewards. Is it really that hard to understand?
"I want players to know what they're buying, and producers to know what they're selling."
Asymmetry of information ALWAYS requires central regulation to correct. I know that's probably not the news you want to hear, because regulation generally sucks, but markets don't function without a central force to orchestrate them. If you leave markets to self correct then whoever has the most power uses it to accumulate more and gets to control the market. And since consumer unions as a concept hover somewhere between a thought experiment and the butt of a joke, the centralized producer will always have more power than the decentralized consumer. There's no incentive for producers to reduce information asymmetry except from regulatory punishment or lost profits, but consumers have demonstrated repeatedly that they will accept a lie of omission as a substitute for proper information, basically any time one is presented.
I doubt it's going anywhere, anytime soon - at least not unless individual consumers start physically attacking/disabling games and studios that exploit them. I'm not advocating for it, but there are SOME limits to lopsided markets.
"it's not an exploit" This is 100% an exploit lol. I have no qualms with you playing this way but it's 100% exploiting a quirk of the game's systems. And I'm sure they'll find a way to fix it without hurting anyone - for example, treating intentional quitting separately from an unforced disconnect.
Frost's Steam library is shockingly sparse. Does he just liberally apply the hidden tag to his games?
@@TheOtherFrostWell that is phenomenally useful.
If publishers don't ruin a game, players trying to optimize will.
A McDouble in Canada now costs over $4. Before COVID it was $1.89.
A medium fry is $4.29. I quit fast food.
The deals on the apps are only given because the user data they get in return is worth more than the discount you’re getting.
This. Vote with your wallet.
Not just user data, clients who obsess over coupons make up for it by being frequent customers; otherwise they wouldn't bother.
@@rikamayhem Yeah that's true as well. When they were originally piloting the app in Japan they found on average app users spent 35% more at their restaurants. It's manipulation used to further future manipulation.
Just look at what Wendy's is doing. They're using machine learning analysis to look at customer trends and are switching to a fluid menu pricing based on demand. So your burger won't cost the same at 8pm compared to 12pm.
It's a disgusting future. Eat at local restaurants, buy from your local grocer.
See I disagree in not calling this an exploit .... It's clearly exploiting the system. Which is worth a ban, ALWAYS. You know what you're doing. This isn't accidental. This is very worth banning.
Helldivers is a bit different to most live service games I think because the grind isn't really what keeps people interested. The majority of players keep playing after they already have everything unlocked because it's just fun, and you have organic goals ingame due to how the campaign works.
I’m level 15 and have about 700 credits, I don’t play every day and more than a couple hours at a time. I also don’t even earn credits on every mission because I’m focused on XP to unlock that sweet quasar and shield pack. It’s a fun game for me in this way.
What you’re describing would wholly and utterly ruin my desire to click play.
Helldivers 2 design is intentional. That it's so surprising, that the game is designed around open rules that can be exploited if the player choses to do so, says more about how we've been conditioned to be grinding or buying ingame currencies just to get what we want. Games used to have cheat codes in them, developers wanted those who wanted to cheat, to just have fun instead of being blocked. Games used to be client side profiles, so those who wanted to edit files could do so, but almost everything is server side these days because most developers fear players won't keep playing/paying if they get what they want. Players accepting the rat maze in modern gaming is the problem.
Despite you telling me how to do this, im not because its boring as shit... so the question is, do you think a majority of people are actually going to do this? Or do you think the full time workers, mums and dads would rather just play the game, vs farming this way? Especially when they can still earn credits by playing, even if its slower.
Helldivers 2 has had the most fair monetization of any live service I've playex. I have earned the first 2 premium passes f2p and im 40 credits away from the 3rd should i choose to unlock it. The prices seem fair if you want to buy armor sets and i have no feeling in the back of my mind that "gosh i shouldnt be doing anything other than playing helldivers because i need to be grinding" that so many other live service games try to use.
@@kip_c 0 i didnt even know about the farming method until watching the video. I just play the game semi actively ( 3 to 4 days a week for a few hrs)
@@kip_c I've seen you post over and over again. I really don't think you get the point, SC are super easy to get. That is the problem Frost's video is pointing out, he can't see how the game can survive long term as there is no need to pay anything after purchase. Just playing a single trivial game every day and collecting the PoI you will have enough Super Credits by the end of the month, and that can take 5 minutes.
@@kip_c Zero here, I've just been playing the game, working my way up the difficulty levels. That HellDive difficulty is chaotic a f**k! Still good fun.
@quinntonhuffman5260 Same here, I’ve had zero issues unlocking warbonds and collecting SC just from playing the game normally for 2-3hrs a few days a week. People gotta chill out on looking for the “most optimal” way to play games
What is this farming nonsense? I play 1-2 hours a day (week day) and maybe double that at the weekend, and I mean playing not farming and I have all warbonds unlocked.
Maybe spend more time enjoying the game than working out how to cheese the game.
HD2 is actually fun. Can't think of the last time there was a game like that where even if you lose you probably had a good time doing it.
@@kip_cidk I have a lot of fun playing helldivers 2. Maybe you are playing with unoptimized settings or a low end computer?
almost any game when you decide to fun in the journey instead of the destination.
most games do that lol
@@kip_c If you're getting bugs it's because you aren't following the major order.
But in seriousness, I haven't had a crash or game breaking bug in weeks. Judging by the discord there are people that still have problems, but I don't know what combination of hardware or settings might be related.
had no problems when i first started but had a couple of mission breaking bugs and crashes in the recent week that has soured me a bit
This was patched out a few days ago.
Hell, the easiest fix for this without hurting the economy is just randomize the spawn locations on each dive. Even if it's the same campaign. Even if it's the same exact mission. Map remains the same. Spawn locations for drops or the drops themselves are randomized. Doesn't hurt legitimate players, doesn't break the economy, but makes diving for just the drops less viable since you're not getting the medals and samples for the upgrades
I know I sound "boomer-ish," but what happened to playing a game because it was fun and you wanted a distraction from real life? When Nick started talking about how Helldiver's economy works, I tuned out. Sorry, basically it sounds like work. I'd rather play for... fun? Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
But to be clear, THANK YOU Nick for talking about it. I just figure I opted out when DRM and live service and loot boxes became the norm. Kudos to those who agree and make games without 'em.
I basically don't agree with anything that you've said here period hell divers is not getting murky with the Monetization. You can fairly easily get everything for free by playing The Game. Some of the best weapons are in the free war bond and your numbers for hours to farm in game currency are fairly exaggerated.
This is one of the only games that is not being shady with the Live service model
I would definitely call this an exploit. Quitting out of the game mid-mission and reloading the same map over and over again is definitely an exploit.
Make it so you can only confirm medals and super credits after reaching the end screen, either win or lose.
Even if it is only confirmed by winning, you can finish a mission and then fully die and that still counts as "complete," you don't even need to extract.
I think most punishing would be to make them work like samples, where you have to keep them as you extract. I wouldn't want that.
Either way, I really do think the solution is easier than you're making it seem. This is an exploit. Quitting out of the game should make you lose whatever rewards you got in game. If you want them, finish the map. Now you can't reload your treasure chest and now you can't collect without playing the game.
@@CCC-w6gOne can suggest a fix without calling it high priority.
Also I think the servers has stabilized a lot since launch, they're clearly working on that.
I think the only wrinkle here is players that disconnect for whatever reason (crash or internet shut down), do they loose the reward from something out of their control?
it was mentioned in the video, confirming on the end mission screen punishes people on weak connections who disconnect. The way the devs actually fixed it was by confirming credits on pickup and not respawning them if you disconnect and reload.
It's an exploit, but really a pointless exploit.
SC are super easy to get. Just playing a single trivial game every day and collecting the PoI you will have enough Super Credits by the end of the month, and that can take 5 minutes.
@@Hawk7886 That's great! Glad it was fixed in an easy and fair manner.
Y'know, the thing you seemed to miss is that unlike most live service games, Helldivers is just... Fun.
I was listening to you describe your farming strategy and all I could think was "That sounds boring. I'd rather just play the game."
I don't mind grinding for super credits, because lone-wolfing it through bot-occupied territory hunting for beacons and crates is actually fun.
Get to the end of the video... it's not about taking the fun out of the game by skipping the grind. It's about how in-game economies just don't make sense when determining the "value" of it.
@@kip_cI'd say the fact that Helldivers became a massive success means alot more than just him enjoy it and ignor it
@@kip_cand frankly your being awfully bold to be an idoit and talk
@@kip_c I think you are missing the point of the video. It wasn't about Helldiver having shitty practices for the consumer. It was that the game almost negates the need to pay anything after purchase, which may affect the long term survival of the game.
No money coming in means they can't keep the servers going.
@@sazersuperzero1770 That's a lot of text to forget that Helldivers 2 has a point of entry fee of $40 where we do not. We live or die by people's enjoyment of our content and willingness to support it. Helldivers does not.
frost is spiffing britting the fuck out of helldivers.
Spiffing tackled the grenade exploit instead.
Probably because Spiffing Brit has already done a video on exactly this topic.
I would love if Spiffing Brit came to Second Wind, the banter, the exploits, the horror
I just love that Spiffing Brit's name is now a verb, and that I know what it means as well.
I can literally fuck around and do whatever I want in HD2 and still earn enough to not have to pay real money for anything.
Compare that to the last game I played the most: War Thunder. Every single time I logged off, I felt like I hadn't done enough. Like I hadn't gotten far enough in the grind. God forbid I had work or missed a day or two, then my grind compounded even more. The whole grind was designed to keep you in the game as long and as much as possible and/or incentivize you to shell out cash to jump ahead.
Nah, Arrowhead is doing things right in my book.
Why do yall have such bad taste? I dont get why you torture yourself with all this crap
@@aturchomicz821 what are you talking about
I farm super credits by playing full level 1 missions. Same story, find a map with as little water as possible and search the perimeter. When doing this solo you get 40 super credits every nine and a half minutes. With a team you get 40 every 7 minutes.
That's 240 to 340 super credits per hour, when you actually are completing the main objective and calling in your transport.
It baffles me how we went from mocking buyable horse armor to grinding enough coins to buy the opportunity to grind for more items to use. Or you can pay $10 for like 4 guns. wtf? I love helldivers 2 but so many people just don’t care to think about the practices put in place.
I hate how prevalent microtransactions have become but tbh I don’t really get the people complaining about it in Helldivers. This game has, by far, the most consumer friendly implementation of the live service model I’ve seen since Deep Rock Galactic. It’s very easy to get all of the unlockables by playing the game normally and nothing is locked behind a paywall.
@@KickinRadTopHat Personally I complain about it because it seems like the mainstream gaming audience has settled for what used to be terrible practices back in the day. Paying for convenience is still a predatory practice in my opinion. Also, you can pay to unlock game changing equipment in Helldivers 2. Deep rock isn't the best comparison because they only sell cosmetics.
I also have some criticism for how HD2 withheld content to be released later as part of its live service model. There have been worse cases of this so I'm fine with how fast they put the stuff out, at least.
"Something something gamers will optimise the fun out of anything."
Seriously, though, while I'm hardly gonna go to bat for any game's monetisation scheme it's not like this level of grind is necessary or even effective for Helldivers. All the other currencies are still gated behind actually playing the game, and between the supercredits you can get normally and the ones you can purchase from the warbonds the average player can get by fine and actually enjoy the game.
There is one very big flaw with your assertion that this will break the games economy. There is no economy, just a storefront between you in isolation and the developer and you earning a million space bucks through an exploit has no effect on me or anyone else's game experience because there is no way for you to give me the money or buy all of the fancy guns so that the store is out of stock or has to raise prices to meet demand. Some games have an economy where an infinite money exploit would be a problem, but this is simply not one of them, there is no exchange allowed between players either of goods or money and price controls meaning no inflation.
There is also that anyone who willing to grind this exploit was probably not going to spend money in the cash shop to begin with meaning this is not really a problem or even actually harmful to the developer.
I feel like all of this is mostly due to not shipping server applications anymore. If you're only hosting a server browser instead of a server and matchmaking system, your costs are way lower and you can focus on developing new content for people to buy while the game is popular. Extra bonus, the game doesn't die when you no longer want to maintain it as long as you publish the server browser code and make the address changeable. Or even just allow people to connect directly by typing in their friends' IP address. I guess the industry stopped doing that because it was too good for everyone?
Frost's "optimize all the fun out of Helldivers 2" approach to the game is so bizarre, but then he had the worst take on the game a few weeks ago, getting basic facts about the game completely wrong, and has yet to post a retraction. They already fixed this exploit he was abusing, without really changing anything for people actually playing the missions. I find it weird to go after this game, instead of every other $60+ live service game out there that genuinely does it a lot worse. Makes me wonder if Frost has some kind of personal vendetta against the devs, or if it's just that hard to reconcile "live service games suck" with "this game seems to be the exception."
A double cheeseburger from McDonald's in my town is 4.99 now. A 400% increase. Its absurd
you know we were going to have a problem when the 'Dollar' menu became the $1 $3 $5 menu, then they dropped that name as well since NOTHING costs $1 anymore. At this current rate I may as well just go to a regular restaurant since the cost is about the same.
Once we get more warbonds, I think it would be nice to see older warbonds being discounted. It'd be like giving them another breath as easier unlocks for new players, rather than relegating them to old powercrept news.
At first I read "discounted" as "discontinued" and nearly had an aneurysm
Genuinely good idea. I hope they do that once they hit like, 6. I think having the most recent 6 months content being full price is fair, especially if the discount is significant like a 30% to 50% discount, or even a scaling one that starts at 10% and climbs to 90% as time goes on making the first sets dirt cheap to allow a newbie to truly catch up.
11:05 What do you mean it's not exploit ? You are quite literally EXPLOITING game mechanics to earn more currency.
the thing that really turned me off from live service games was pokemon go. i would inevitably come to a point when i ran out of pokeballs and needed to go buy some from the store...i worked out that a single pokeball cost basically a nickel...then i had this idea in my head that i'm basically throwing nickels at these pokemon...then i thought about it some more...assuming i am always hitting centre with a spin ball the only thing that determines if i catch it or not is luck...which inevitably led me to the conclusion: "am i playing a fancy slot machine?"
and once i had that idea in my head i couldn't get rid of it...this is a really fancy slot machine...except i don't even have a chance of winning money from it.
That's why the business model was kind of genius. Because most players are too lazy to walk to pokestops in real life. If the ingame store didn't exist, you'd have seen even more people out in the real world playing the game.
@@cattysplat you barely get a pittance from pokestops, which you will use up in no time. And if you want ultra balls buying em is about your only option.
This video motivated me to actually look up what Helldivers is, because the entire time you were describing the monetization exploit I was thinking "what's the actual game to justify this grind"?
Based on a few minutes of research... it seems to be you get dropped on a planet, kiil aliens, loot stuff, go next; the bare minimum amount of "game" needed to enable a monetization model. Supremely disappointing to learn, given that Helldivers by my understanding is quite popular. Really undermines the player outcry for higher quality games when stuff like this does well.
On topic though, in my experience of being addicted to (in retrospect) subjectively bad games, a currency or rewards system that's at least partially exploitable by players is actually good for the overall health of the game from a business perspective. After the initial new game enjoyment wears off, many players straddle the fence... Do I keep grinding (largely arbitrary) rewards, or do I drop the game. But if a player feels they can "beat" the rewards system with an exploitative grind, they're more likely to double down on the game instead of asking why they're burning time on a game they stopped enjoying hours ago. These players might not be paying for the game, but they're essential for retaining overall player count that'll keep the game on the charts, keep it on streams, which brings new players in... some of whom WILL buy currency.
Helldivers is popular because it exemplifies the rule of KISS. It’s easy to pick up, easy to understand, and it doesn’t demand hours upon hours of grinding. You can pick it up, play for an hour, and put it right back down while still making decent progress.
I think people are looking at these problems at a very surface level, I keep seeing comments like "The Issue is that companies are trying to make a game that increases monetization instead of trying to make a good game." or "The issue is that Executives are greedy and are trying to make more money, the issue is that they just like money." Like sure, that's true, no shit.
But it really feels like a simplification of the problem that doesn't go any deeper, like people are tiptoeing around it. Yeah OBVIOUSLY these companies are trying to make more money.
It seems like gamers are willing to critique bad business practices, they say things like "Thats Blizzard for you" or "The problem is corruption/greed". They always get upset at how workers are treated, and how businesses make tons of money while making terrible games. But they always seem to fall short of saying the dreaded C word.
People seem to avoid it, but your all critiquing Capitalism. Its Capitalism that CAUSES all this crap to happen. Just say it already. This problem is NOT exclusive to gaming, this is our system as a whole.
The goal of Capitalism is to continue increasing capital/profits for the sake of it. To increase profits and cut costs. If that means crunch time, or firing employees, or making half baked games (POKEMON). Then so be it.
The word your all looking for, the ROOT of it. is C A P I T A L I S M. Seriously its like people are just EDGING. Its frustrating, They will critique all the problems caused by the system and just avoid critiquing the system. Its stupid.
I genuinely think gamers don't want to go much further than just saying "Executives suck" because they want to stay immersed in their games and not think of how their games are affected by the real world. They want to hope the problem will fix itself. But this is a problem with society, not just gaming.
As long as capitalism exist, artists and creative folks will keep getting screwed over, forced to crunch and rush projects, or be abused by threat of unemployment.
They'll have to struggle to pay rent, not giving them time to work on their passions, and create new things, because Capitalism makes rent skyrocket.
This entire system is made to squeeze every penny out, and screw over the smaller man, to make a few people rich.
Open your eyes and dig deeper. Its not just GREED, its not just "EXECS SUCK, THEY WANT MONEY."
ITS THE SYSTEM THAT REWARDS THIS BEHAVIOR. STOP AVOIDING THE WORD CAPITALISM.
Who the hell has the time and is boring enongh to farm super credits like this?
I mean I have ADHD and need to be doing something while watching a movie or will just get distracted and loose track of what's going on. This kind of farming is just the right amount of stimming to keep my concentration while I was watching the new Fallout series.
People who grew up with MMOs, those that get a kick out of beating the intended system. Some people like to take advantage of exploits knowing there's a high chance it gets patched out and other aspects of the in-game economy changing.
"Given the opportunity, players will optimise the fun out of their games."
@@cattysplat You are assuming people are doing it to optimise the game, not as a way to relax.
I admit that i did because i wanted to get Steeled Veterans before Cutting Edge. Didn't want to fall behind the curve and be stuck without all the fancy new toys.
That being said, I wasn't grinding quite as efficiently as the exploit Frost describes. I was completing lv2-3 missions and keeping whatever I found wandering the maps. Put on my own music and everything; it was very relaxing (and still more efficient than doing "normal" missions).
2 month out and this game is still holding almost 350,000 players, I can't imagine any significant amount players are abusing this system and as someone that doesn't have a bunch of time on my hands, their design isn't really too bad, I bought one warbond and almost have the second after only about 3 hours of just playing normally. And the other big thing is that you don't have to grind, because the warbonds don't go away. The "unfun" of the grind is solely self-inflicted in this case.
Yeah the system is there to break, but its up to you to break it. That's like buying an iPhone, purposely breaking the screen and then complaining to Apple that the screen isn't strong enough
@@kip_c I mean, I've yet to actively go super credit farming and I've bough 3 armors and am halfway to my second warbond, and I've only got 40 hours in the game. Expecting this to be anything more than maybe 20k people is a little absurd and I guarantee it was done because it was a bug, not the intended way for the economy to function. I doubt the devs were like "lets make a system where you can close the game and reload to farm credits"
Its an exploit that only breaks the system as much as you let it. Don't engage, system doesn't break. Simple concept really. Now if the warbonds were limited time, then we'd be talking a whole different matter where grinding in necessary unless you spend real money. The current (and now patched out) system allows for everyone to experience all the content as long as play time allows.
Seems like for some gamers the fun comes from breaking the game rather than playing it. It’s a weird mentality to me, most of my fun comes from engaging with the game as it was intended and only using exploits as a last resort when fair play becomes unenjoyable. Even in that case I’d rather just take a break and go back to it when I’m ready to engage with it straight up again.
On 1000% those are the same people that become speedrunners, they enjoy breaking the games. But no one is going around saying the everyone is going to beat Mario 64 in 20 minutes or less just because of the few speedrunners that find that fun.
I feel like Frosts position is based on someone that very openly enjoys survival games the most, where all you do is grind for the next thing. This is a game about having fun, not about the cosmetics you unlock, and he turned it into that.@@KickinRadTopHat
@@KickinRadTopHat There is literally no need to do this. There is no massive grind and the gameplay is fun. Also the developers would have patched it out literally months ago if they were concerned.
It seems like a simple enough fix. Once the super credits are picked up they just shouldn't spawn again. Even if you couldn't finish the mission or get disconnected, you reload the map but there's a marker indicating X resource has already been collected.
Already stealth patched
@@2ScoopsPlz Super easy, barely an inconvenience.
The reference to 'its a mad mad mad mad world' really made my day.
I will complain about the price of a slice of cheese because I am a rat bastard.
Little Chef?
You won't become rich by being generous anyway
""""Cheese""""
you either die a dollar menu double cheeseburger or live long enough to become a mcdouble
I thought the double cheeseburger analogy was going to be used to compare a few people using coupons being the same as a few people farming super credits. Some can, but most wont, and they will still enjoy what they paid for.
I thought that part was implied, but I think the end point was that even without exploit farming the game might be a bit too generous with the premium currency so it might not work to have the exploiters offset by sales.
Yes the game that sold 8 million copies at a 40 dollar price point with a 100 million dollar budget is going to shut down because super credits are too easy to farm. What are you talking about?
OhDough was right, this video is VERY misleading and make me ask myself if you even played this game 💀 I mean come on 30-100 hours for super credit and you didn’t have enough?
I understand that you CAN do this to get more Medals/Super Credits, but it doesn't even look fun. Why not just play the game and earn the currency at a decent rate? The game is fun, just play it,
2:25 The price has increased by 179/129% respectively not 279/229%.
2x burgers
That exploit was stupid.
I payed a total of 50 euros for the game.
I have everything unlocked...
I am not even that hardcore of a gamer...
Mike Ybarra (C-whatever-O from Blizzard) had the bright idea gamers should pay a tip for great games...
I realized after that statement came out that I was doing this unintentionally. I typically avoid buying premium currency or special editions, etc, but lately I'll purchase a currency pack or soundtrack for games I really enjoy just to support the developer.
I actually kinda did that with Helldivers. Upgraded to Super Citizen edition and got Credits I didn't need, just because I enjoy the game so much.
I feel like you're mostly right... outside of the time investment.
You would be right if major orders didn't exist, which work as a kind of passive medal income. I have 78 hours in the game- I've gotten everything relevant/non-cosmetic out of all of the premium warbonds, and I've almost cleared the regular warbond.
The ideas are generally right, but also, I don't think it's nearly so bad as you've put it out to be. I've never even considered buying super credits outside of supporting the studio- I've had no issue clearing out content quickly and efficiently. (No, I haven't farmed outside of running a lot of maps.)
Ok.. but it's not like there is all that much to use super credits on, so farming for them is kind of pointless.
Given the opportunity a community will optimize all the fun out of a game. While it's not an elegant solution one of the ways this problem could be fixed or "mitigated" is by putting a cap on the amount of currency a player can hold at any given time. This forces players to spend their medals and SCs as opposed to hoarding them. The problem is WHERE do you place this cap? A variant of this idea would be to put a daily limit on currency that can be farmed while leaving currency that is paid for alone.
Something I think people miss regarding long-term economic effects is, once you have enough currency to purchase everything, then you are cutting off the carrot from the stick. Games like Helldivers 2 aren't about the ending, but more about "the friends we made along the way". If players want to take advantage of gathering currency instead of enjoying the ride than that does kind of defeat the overall vibe of it. But in this instance, I wouldn't blame Arrowhead for the way people play the game. If anything, congrats to their studio for making two different kinds of games at the same time, a shooter and a farming simulator.
The game is more successful than anyone could have imagined as is and you found a flaw with the fact that players are able to cut down on the grind and enjoy the game?
Always love when players optimize the fun right out of a game
more like optimize so they can have more fun for cheaper, the end goal of the farming is new fresh guns and upgrades without paying real money
I hate when this quote is used as if it's the fault of the players. This phrase was coined with the intent to make developers aware that if they put in a reward structure, they should make sure that the intended way to play is also the most optimal way in terms of rewards. Not to blame players for wanting to play optimally. The reason for this is because optimizing your rewards is human nature. And you'd be a fool if you want to try and fight that.
It's a game design issue. People WILL optimise the fun out of a game if they have the chance. It's a common trait for humans to try to optimise a task for best results, even if that doesn't end up being the most fun or engaging way to do it. It's impossible to change this, so developers have the job of working around this problem to try to make the most obviously efficient way to play and the most obviously fun way to play the same.
It's inevitable that some players will optimize the fun out of any game with optimizations available, but in the case of games where those optimizations save real-world money or cut out significant amounts of artificial time gating, you can't really blame the players for it. That's a consequence of designing the game such that sub-optimal play is less fun unless you spend extra money, since that creates a direct incentive to optimize the game - even if that optimization isn't particularly fun to do - for the sake of getting that extra fun for free.
Ideally, games should be designed so that optimization *is* fun. That's a vague goal that's often a lot easier said than done, especially once you get into the world of unexpected exploits, but that's not an excuse for deliberately designing games in a way that incentivizes playstyles that aren't fun for the sake of optimization, and that's exactly what monetization does. Whenever you let players pay to "skip the grind," you conversely give them a chance to feel like they're saving money by grinding. The two are inescapably linked.
It's not murky at all. You buy a game and never spend money on it again unless maybe it's DLC content with good reviews. Simple as that.
I feel that due to the game being full price and being a good game does mean the game isnt necessary to have a perfect monetization model yet. Better to have a good game than good money systems
True. Like none of this matters when you're in the situation of Suicide Squad: KtJL. Barely a few thousands players is infinitely more a problem for making money than millions of players with Helldivers 2.
That ending point about wanting to have a discussion about monetization is actually one I'd be very interested to have more often. The reality is the cost of a game can be overshadowed by the fact that we have so many example's of game's that work without them and are equally if not more fun in cases. So why go into a game that requires payment upfront, and then as asks for More payment?
The snap to reason is Greed, which...yes, is true in most cases nowadays (80% give or take). But there are situation's where people need a long term amount of money because they require it to keep themselves running. Especially as the price of inflation rises, and studio's need to keep up with a scale of never ending growth.
Now that is actually the main point of the problem as a whole, needing to chase a never ending system of infinite growth and altering prices. But that's a bigger problem, and one more complicated than a simple youtube commenter can figure out weather it's you or me. If you think you have an idea for a better system, open up a history book and see if it hasn't been tried already. There's positive and negatives to every approach you make, and I've long since learned that it's easier to approach thing's with an open mind then just assume I know the answer.
I'm not saying that mean's I'm gonna play a F2P game made by a multi-million/billion corporation and say I'd have fun with it, as the cash shop keeps popping up asking me to spend thousands of dollars in it. But it also means I'm going to outright dismiss a game on the basis of it's practices without atleast trying it out first.
That said though if a Paid game come's along and asks for money up front while asking me for more money later, it's gonna get harder and harder to justify a game's purchase if the game keeps on making they're economy's murkier and murkier. At that point I'd just end up sticking to classics, because to this day I can still get enjoyment out of things I already paid for and don't have to pay for again.
Games like Helldivers make me feel so old. Super credits, loot drops, stuff starting with the word premium. Countless terms that are completely alien to me. I'm used to terms like, levels, lives, score etc.
I mean, this has been the norm for the last 10 years. Did you just take a long break from gaming and gaming media?
Each mission in Helldivers 2 is basically a level, in which each player gets 5 lives to beat. You're then scored based on how quickly you beat the level and how many secrets you found. Super Credits, Medals, and all those other resources are just different colored coins, but instead of buying lives and access to new levels, you buy guns and armor so you're better equipped for the next level, which you can initiate at any time.
Also the game is a one-time payment, and the in-game real money items are completely spandrel and ignorable. Any questions?
@@00101001000000110011 Maybe if you exclusively shop at brick and mortar stores and dont watch youtube videos or read articles concerning the games industry, which by the very nature of being a commentor on this youtube channel makes it very hard to understand.
For starters you would need to be completely detached from the multiplayer shooter genre and not know what CoD is. That by itself seems impossible to me.
Nobody has cared about scores in 35 years, nobody has cared about lives in 25 years, nobody has cared about levels in 20 years. I call BS on this entire post as nothing more than a “things were better in my day!” Whine. I’m GenX and have played games since the damn Atari. My generation is a damn plague on everything.
It’s funny that this game does all 3 of those concepts better than most games in decades, but hey, I wouldn’t want to get in the way of a good holier than thou rant about something you know dick all about.
@@evilducks3710 Yeah I'm not sure I can trust this guy to somehow be using the internet and still not hear of the core monetisation debate. The terminology gap is especially weird, we're talking a gap of 1995 to around 2015. saying "the prefix premium- is alien to me" is also a bit too obtuse.
It's an interesting conundrum: Back in HELLDIVERS 1, I found myself in a jetpack or snow shoes on high difficulty maps sprinting around snatching up Samples and avoiding combat. This was certainly productive for unlocking upgrades, but it got soulless and repetitive and dull very quickly......and I couldn't stop.
By the end of it, standing atop a heap of unlocked superweapons, I realized that some of them weren't even part of my playstyle and I'd never use them. What's more, I'd killed my drive to play. I wanted to eat from the leveling system and eat from the Sample upgrades and eat from the co-op combat organically again, but two of those systems were made pointless because of my hunger for power and completionism.
Thankfully, the devs built in a "Reset Everything" button and I pressed it.
For me, efficiently grinding out upgrades is still grinding. I don't care if it is an option available to all players, I won't be doing it personally, and I would caution players against it. You just might kill a major reason you were playing in the first place.