The Wishful Idealism of Hamilton
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- Hamilton: the musical which has swept the world, and more importantly, the internet. Written by Lin-Manuel Miranda and now streaming on Disney+, the story dives deep into the start of America's history from the perspective of the American Revolution. But how much of Hamilton's vision of the past is real, and how much is misguided? Today, we find out, on Quinton Reviews.
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Another great video, Quint.
Quinton Reviews go with raid
@ everyone is biased. it is biased to say that quinton is biased. quinton used to be a conservative, he has had the thought processes of one, he knows how they think, and he thinks theyre wrong.
Star Wolf why would we listen to a fash? 😂
@@BunnyTsukino1999 😐
Those tumblr fanarts made me realize something;
This is just the Hetalia fandom but laser-focused on just America
At least Hetalia is already ridiculously awful at history class.
I just remembered how big early to mid 2010's Hetalia fandom was
A dark time in my life
And just as deeply cancerous, it turns out
Oh god Hetalia. Now that’s a name I hoped to never see arise from the pit
Hamilton is just a classier theater-buffs Hetalia w. better writing, pass it on!
The miku binder Jefferson silhouette in the thumbnail will haunt me
Being friends with that artist in the past will haunt me to my grave
I see him now and I want to forget
ShoujoPrince YOU KNEW THEM? Were they as cringe as they seem in the art?
I dont get the joke.
@@michikip45 tell ussss
Had a history class with a girl who was legitimately surprised to find out that Thomas Jefferson was white due to this musical
Maybe she will get a $10 dollar bill, when she gets her 1st baby sitting gig.. so that history factoid will probably have straightened itself out.. but discovering that Hamilton was not a battle - rapper, of renound.. this, she may have to discover on her own, sometime
Wait til she hears that they are all white.
Wait till she finds out he’s a rapist and a slave owner capitalist
I thought Abraham Lincoln was our first black president until I was 13. If anything, that's an indightment on our public school system
Oh god, that girl from your class is PEAK LIBERAL.
I sometimes like to imagine that one day, hundreds of years from now, someone will make a musical about internet celebrities or modern politicians, and people will wonder how historically accurate it is.
Honestly, I hope they make that within my lifetime.
Good news, people already make stories using youtubers and celebrities as characters! Bad news, people make stories using real people that are still alive as characters.
Unfortunately for all of us... our online selves will long survive our physical selves and provide incontrovertible evidence of our collective stupidity to future generations.
Looking forward to that Logan Paul musical in 2200!
@@nikkixx7964 "guys he filmed that body ironically, he redeemed himself with that podcast guys, I swear"
the fact that i saw hatsune miku binder thomas jefferson outside of tumblr really punched me in the gut
I just checked that out for the first time. I think I’m having a stroke
the h u h
ok nvm i know what your talkin about
nothing wrong with loving anime and vocaloid btw , tho historical people didn't give a fuck about hatsune miku it didn't even exist yet , but let's not fall into the alt-right trap of "lol weeb cringe furry cringe" , that would be wrong
i think it’s more about them fetishizing a real, problematic person
THE FAKE PIE uh sorry but Thomas Jefferson in a miku binder deserves an “alt-right reaction” lmao
If any founding father would have been addicted to cocaine, it would be Benjamin Franklin
Honestly, with all the did I wouldn't be surprised if he was coked up the entire time
He'd print several treatises on the health benefits and make them available in pamphlet form.
@@Nono-hk3is Benjamin Franklin was the original shitposter
@@cheer90099 he was also the prototype for modern marital neglect and child abuse dude was an asshole to his own child.
Nah, I just read his wikipedia page and I get way bigger "weed and maybe shrooms" vibes.
As a black person I can accept this story as an idealized work of fiction and it would be silly to get mad about racial insensitivity when it single handedly employed and spotlighted more performers of color than basically everything else on Broadway combined. I just wish it were more upfront about the disparity between the characters and the real people they're based on
I've been thinking a lot about this too as of late, then I found this video. The way I see it, diversity is good as long as the racial make up doesn't affect the themes of the story. In most stories today, it doesn't, but depicting a slave owner as a black man does affect the themes of the show.
Wow this show employed a couple dozen black and brown people on Broadway, and ticket prices were so high that the majority of black and brown people can't afford to see it. What a tremendous win for the working class.
@@hardnewstakenharder A couple dozen being employed by Broadway on this scale is absolutely amazing. And the majority of everyone can't see it, it's a theatre of 1,000 seats on a planet of over 7 billion people. You seem to be implying black and brown people can't have money
And thats completely ignoring the fact that the show was filmed and is now on Disney plus for $9
@@demetri2716 the majority of black and brown people in the united States and the world over are suffering harshly from colonialism and intergenerational poverty directly attributable to the United States, to suddenly ignore that and turn colorblind is a form of racism. I grew up in the barrio and mfs are struggling to survive to this day, watching a broadway show in no way alleviates our poverty or stops the cops from fucking with us.
But I can see that there's class division between POC as well, as you're implying. You should read up on how Puerto Ricans protested against Lin-Manuel's show. They could give a fuck less about singing and dancing while Lin Manuel helped put their island under more debt and poverty due to the PROMESA act that Miranda championed.
@@demetri2716 Your second comment is just… yikes. I’m black and Navajo. I love Hamilton because I can see it as something 100% fictional. I don’t associate the characters with the actual people. But white people can’t do the same. But that’s where my agreement with your comment ends.
To pretend that racism doesn’t play a part when it comes to wealth is just extremely ignorant. And if you actually are black, you don’t have the privilege to ignore that. To ignore generational wealth, gentrification, red lining, how we’re treated in the work place, etc etc….. shameful.
Hamilton giving excuses for his infidelity doesn't come across as Miranda trying to excuse the behavior, it comes across as it Miranda acting out how a person excuses their behavior to themselves.
Also Miranda has talked about how he changed out the original line "How could you do this?" to "How could I do this?" to ensure the audience didn't read the situation as him being the victim. Also why Burn exist, which very clearly depicts the victimhood and emotional trauma of Eliza.
He starts the song with these lines:
"I hadn't slept in a week
I was weak, I was awake
You've never seen a bastard orphan more in need of a break"
This is him manipulating the audience by rationalizing that he wasn't in his right mind because he was "tired" and reminds the audience of how difficult his childhood was. He then goes on to say explain that she was being abused by her husband. He, oh so graciously, gives her $30 and then she "leads him to her bed". That is Miranda saying "see it wasn't really his fault, he was tried and had a bad childhood. He was soooo giving and gave a poor abuse vicim $30. It's not his fault repaid him with sex". Not a good look for either of them. He was in a position of power. This is a crime. (At least in the US). Miranda worships Hamilton, a man that doesn't deserve idolization. In the past we ignored the major flaws of the founding fathers. I'm honestly not sure what is worse; ignoring their flaws or making excuses for them.
@@HisRedCoat Notice that song, Burn, is not from Eliza's perceptive. It is from another man's. This shows a lack of self-awareness on the part of Miranda (and through him his character Hamilton).
@@w.k.astrolabe280 dude this was supposed to be from Hamilton's perspective. The WHOLE musical was supposed to be from Hamilton's perspective. Which is why he's rationalising his actions irrationally. And also all I got from that comment is that you... Don't like Lin?? At least you made it seem like it
I also saw his lowest point in the play as getting Philip killed with his duel strategy, not the affair
I think if Hamilton was brought to the future to see his musical, he’d be pretty shocked to find out how he died.
Every time I think about him seeing the musical, I always picture someone (Who is always me) asking him what he thought of it and his response starting with "There are too many [Normally I'm okay using racial slurs as long as it doesn't perpetuate or legitimize a dangerous narrative but I'm not comfortable doing that right now] in this play"
I’m pretty sure he’d be upset with the number of poors who were at the theater
Culture shock would be an understatement if the real Hamilton saw this play. If he wasn't distracted by the thousands of modern technological and societal advances since his era then he would be pissed at POC playing white people.
When you die, you ask yourself a lot of questions. Questions like, "Wait, did you say I died in a duel?" and, "Who dies in a duel?!"
I just straight up think he wouldn't be able to recognize the music as anything but sounds or parse what the people were saying.
As someone living with three women who adore this show with every fiber of their beings, I’ve learned to just ignore any implications of it as an attempt at historical documentation and take it for the fanfiction it is.
To be honest, before Leopold von Ranke, nearly all studies of history were mostly fanfic.
Tbf when it first came out I hated how nice it made Hamilton out to be he was an arrogant narcissist who would do anything to succeed. Like fuck the terms of the collection he used to get to new York was "mate learn to be a doctor or a lawyer or something you know useful then come back and help us" Hamilton just abandoned them.
But then I listened more to the music (mostly because its good) and watched the show and I learned to just enjoy it for what it is
I would honestly have lovely more to see a show about Elizabeth she has a far more interesting life both during her time with Hamilton and after.
@@kylecross246 I don't think it made him look nice at all, I think it's subjective and complex like all things. Everything you described I felt was in the final show. I say that as a historian who is aware of all the moments where the show focuses on legitimate historical moments and artistic liberty. Equally I don't think people give the show enough credit for how much historical information was correct and how much is artistic liberty and how the artistic paths away from history are creatively all very valid. People on Twitter post historically inaccurate information about Hamilton that sounds juicy and people buy into it because it sounds contrarian to something that is popular but in reality I didn't feel historically cheated by the musical at all.
@@DrMattPhillips Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the musical made Hamilton undeservingly sympathetic. I believe the issue that I hear people (or Quinton specifically) expressing about the musical is not merely that it's inaccurate, but that in an attempt to Tell a Story, the musical orients the audience to be sympathetic to/relate to Hamilton in a way that they will consequently dismiss his harmful actions or participation in a harmful enterprise, for the sake of relating to him as a character. What I hear you saying about twitter people is that they are trying to tell a different story of Hamilton being a monstrous character, and use misinformation to do so which is harmful because information and history are valuable in themselves.
@@Owithalessthanontop My issue to Quinton's perepective is a lot of it is sited to the book 'Alaxander Hamilton' and slavery in relation to that in relation to undeserved sympathy but I've read that book last winter and I'm pretty certain none of the information he cited to it is actually in that book. Would love a specific chapter source since it's hard for me to address an opinion based from a source where I'm pretty certain the source says the opposite. He also stated Hamilton would say something racist in reply to seeing the play but I've read through many of Hamiltons documents written in his tone, voice and thoughts and I don't think that's correct at all and I think you'd have to work very hard to prove it. (almost like he stated with Angelica and Hamilton). It's also ironic as he stated about people conveying the founding fathers as things they are not and then does the very same. Equally his critical review of Lin's way of approaching Hamilton unintentionally relate to this very video and clear errors within it outside of the book of which I can't confirm to be wrong until able to talk to Quinton on his specific chapter source (which seems unlikely). But based on the book I read unless it was like "oh btw he had slaves sroz" I just don't see how it could be in the book without me noticing or how it'd even fit into the book I read that developes very differently. So I can't really take seriously the perspective that it makes a unsympathetic person sympatric when I see clear errors in the way the 'unsympathetic' part is argued.
Hamilton wasn’t the one advocating against slavery. That was John Laurens.
The line "we'll never be free until we end slavery" in Yorktown is sung by *both* Laurens and Hamilton's characters
@@lydiavalentino Because he agreed with him. He wasn't the front runner.
I don't get why Thomas Paine was also abolitionist but only wrote about it to his friends instead of advocating too. Put your money where your mouth is, T Paine!
@@lydiavalentino hamilton was a slave trader.
But he did criticize Jefferson for owning slaves in the debate thing
To be fair, Francophiles like Jefferson would probably be weebs today.
Wakfu is pretty good.
Doubt
why does that kinda makes sense
Lol French weebs, never saw that as a possibility
Pretty sure they'd be to busy being racist
Your point about Hamilton showing the value of biographies rather than Hamilton himself reminds me a lot of The Greatest Showman, wherein PT Barnum is depicted as lying/making stuff up about people in his early shows to make it more engaging. In the film, a critic tells him he's a fraud and he says in response, essentially, if the crowd still enjoys it, who cares? Which, in a meta way, describes the movie itself - which completely rewrote almost all of PT Barnum's unsavory historical aspects into a neat, packaged musical that audiences widely loved. The film even depicts Barnum "cheating on his wife" as the lowest moment of life, same as Hamilton!
Just bookmarking this comment, tis good.
Thats because the greatest showman was basically trying to be hamilton without any of the actual smart lyrical work.
@@redique is there a name for the subgenre of theatre where the main character's great ambition is shown as nothing but heroic in act one and then nothing but karmic flaw in act two?
haven't seen the greatest showman in a while! maybe it's worth a revisit
@@emmae2520 Capitalism
You’re the first person outside of twitter or tumblr that ive heard talk about the miku binder thomas jefferson and co. and its absolutely surreal hearing a real person talk about this fever dream
This might sound random, but, i see your comments in other videos a lot
Bold of you to assume Quinton Reviews is a real person
i heard someone describe hamilton as “really bad fan fanfiction with a good soundtrack” and it encapsulates everything i feel about it
now that's a good description.
excellent description
Yeah, i agree
"Really bad" is stretching it. Hamilton is good fanfiction.
@@pawnhearts8785 yeah, a bit OOC (out of character) but good
Dude hell yes the Spongebob musical is incredible. The costumes and set design are mind blowing. The music is super fun and memorable. The sound effects and foley work add so much to make it feel fun, animated and cartoony. Plus the casting for all the characters is perfection. Everyone should watch this show.
You wanna see Plankton rap so fast that time stalls? Watch this show.
You wanna see Patrick Star become a cult leader? Watch this show.
You wanna see a man with 4 legs tap dance? Watch this show.
Yes!!! I've had friends of mine (who don't like musicals) make fun of me for liking the Spongebob musical because it sounds silly in theory, when it's actually one of my favourite musicals now!
@@lia-DR I mean is it any less silly than the actual cartoon?
That show, on top of having great music, also had amazing costumes and sets. I also like how it doesn’t try to recreate anything from the spongebob franchise, but they instead use the characters and world that audiences are already familiar with to create something new
@@skippykay599 Something most musicals based off other franchises don't seem to do.
LJK401 well in story it is still kind of silly, in the same way any fictional show is where you can take massive leaps, but it's both fun and funny in an unironic way that makes it enjoyable for adults
The pain in his voice when he talks about the Thomas Jefferson miku binder.... I’m so sorry Quinton
what's wrong ? it's not accurate (and obviously wasn't meant to be) but people are allowed to create their own worlds of fiction and express themselves ! and there is nothing wrong with being a fan of vocaloid (neither with being a furry , a genderfluid , an anime lover , ect...)
@@Catchum Yeah and can you imagine how homophobic and transphobic he would actually be?
@@Catchum counterpoint: depict them as that intentionally to fuck with the fact that they were homophobic, transpohbic terrible people. I agree they should recognize that jeferson was a BAD PERSON, but I think its actually pretty humorous to look at these actual asshats and make them in to proud trans women of color lol
@@Catchum the person who made the original was a trans minor on tumblr, for context. It would have never been exposed to so many eyes if not for people bringing it up again and again.
@@thefakepie1126 It's more of "why him?" He's a real person. Imagine someone makes a depicted of you but they screw up your personalities to fit their liking.
"liking hamilton as a musical and appreciating the work it has done to give poc more recognition on broadway" and "recognizing that it doesn't portray history accurately and the founding fathers were actually horrible people" are statements that can coexist.
Schmanda
This.
"The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice." -Malcolm X
( p.s, Lin-Manuel Miranda is a huge piece of shit for other reasons, but what do ya know. thenewinquiry.com/disaster-act/ )
You can't please everyone.
@@MegaRekless how is Lin Mauel Miranda a bad person? Not saying he isn't, I'm genuinely curious. RN it just sounds like you are talking of your asshole, and if you don't reply with some explanation ill assume that you are.
CadenJG that’s not a reason for calling him a piece of shit lmao. Bruh the protestors spontaneously gathered in a location that had ALREADY PLANNED FOR LIN MANUEL MIRANDAS ARRIVAL. And then they go telling him he has to leave immediately, despite the fact that he had planned and organized his being there beforehand. Whereas they had just shown up randomly... their protest being overshadowed is 100% their own fault, they literally gathered in an area that everyone KNEW a star was showing up. As for the media misreporting Lin leading the protests, that’s the media’s fault and not his. Duh. Gonna take more than that to convince me he’s a terrible person.
I don't think Lin-Manuel Miranda identifies with Hamilton in the way you think he does. He describes Hamilton as a *"crazy, manic asshole".* Plus, he originally wanted to play Burr, but Leslie Odom Jr. proved better for the part.
It strikes me as kind of dishonest to spin LMM as... some Hamilton fanboy using his "authority on Hamilton" to mislead people into accepting his headcanons because he "personally identifies" with a character. Real experts have been calling out the musical's inaccuracies all throughout its popularity. Miranda even calls _himself_ out - on the Genius annotations for "Satisfied", he brings up that the historical reality was different from what he found "stronger dramatically".
"Lin Manuel identifies with Hamilton and tried to paint him as a hero" is a really juicy take. But, by ignoring inconvenient evidence to create a more dramatic conclusion, this video does exactly what it criticizes.
This is the best response to this video and I really appreciate it
I agree! Lin Manuel Miranda to me is the most inspirational person ever!
also nice choice of thumbnail nothing says lets have a mature conversation about Hamilton like an unflattering picture of its lead.
I think you're underestimating how many parallels between Lin Manuel Miranda and Hamilton's life stories Miranda built into the text. There's a reason why his status as an immigrant from the Caribbean is mentioned so frequently; it's a fundamental part of Miranda's identity as a Puerto Rican, and thus the identity of the character he created and portrayed. There's also the fact that he's depicted as an obsessive and talented writer, which Miranda undoubtedly is as well. As much as he seems to paint a nuanced picture of Hamilton as a flawed individual, in the musical his shortcomings are greatly outnumbered by his virtues (which, as the video says, are greatly exaggerated). It's dismissive to say all Miranda is doing is projecting onto the character, but that's not what the video is saying at all. He connected with Hamilton (the historical figure) on a personal level, and that's what he wants viewers to do through his characters (something he's said numerous times in interviews). Unfortunately, this can come at the expense of ignoring the Founding Fathers' heinous behavior and romanticizing them.
@@lprocks555 Paralleling someone doesn't he isn't aware of their faults
Miranda himself has said that Hamilton is not meant to be historically accurate, the times where Hamilton tries to make himself the victim happens because it is meant to be from his perspective.
In any case, the fact that there is a mixed representation in the musical makes me and many people very uncomfortable because, well, slaves and shit. But at the end of the day, it's fanfic in a musical, and still love the songs.
Yeah i think you always have to remember who's telling the story, who the narrator is, cause that's always just as important as what youre seeing, who's eyes are you seeing it through.
@@edelette6529 Yes, I think something a lot of people forget is that every piece of media has flaws, and that one doesn't have to agree with 100% every single thing from something to like it or admire it.
Personally, I’m fine with the actors and actresses being mixed. When it come to the world of theater, where men will sometimes play woman, I think there’s more leniency towards skin color. Now, if slavery or racism was a major part of the story, then you’d want to keep the actors/actresses race accurate.
@@calebcraven7409 Isn't the narrator Burr ?
@@moona3206 most of the play is but at the start of "Say No to This" Burr starts narrating and then goes "I'll let him tell it" and Hamilton starts narrating, so for that song Hamilton is the narrator
As a historian you really put a lot of my thoughts on Hamilton into words. While I enjoy it as a piece of theater I definitely view it as a ‘loose’ interpretation of these events and I acknowledge it’s problematic aspects. I also think Hamilton is an example of an overall trend with historical fiction about real people where people will cherry pick events and focus on the personal drama and romance rather than the hard realities. Also everyone comes to a piece of art like Hamilton with different background knowledge. Some people know all the dark and difficult aspects of the founding fathers and some people come with the sanitized elementary school perspective. That’s how you get both critical fans and the people who treat them like fictional characters to indentify with.
Trying to reconcile the actual methods of historiography and research with the human desire for simple narratives and black and white morality/heroes vs villains is possibly one of the most difficult things to actually do when creating historical fiction. Which is why I'd never try to make historical fiction myself, there's too much speculation to be placed upon real people. And yet Hamilton somehow doesn't bother me as much as something like the Elizabeth/Elizabeth: the Golden Age movies do, perhaps because it's so much more stylised.
Bewilderbeastie Oh a hundred percent trying to make satisfying narratives out of real life is pretty difficult. Also especially since a lot of historical writing is arguing and not just reporting facts you can have one historian that agrees with the interpretation of a person and another one who doesn’t.
Do you think it's possible for us to enjoy both nuanced historical textbooks that give an honest and critical look at historical figures, and also grand acts of devotion the specifically celebrate their positive attributes and heroic achievements? Can there be any benefit to occasional bouts of hero worship?
Bewilderbeastie While I agree with your statements, I think it’s definitely possible to create historical fiction that is able to encompass views and mixed beliefs, while also painting an accurate picture. A great example of this is the musical Assassins. The musical follows a scenario where a bunch of American assassins (mainly consisting of the ones who attempted or succeeded in killing a sitting president) all meet and interact with one another, sharing their experiences, morals and philosophies. This is all interconnected by musical ballads that summarize the events of each assassination attempt, each told from the point of both the individual assassins and a narrator. Each figure is given their time to shine and speak about their motivations, ambitions and what led them to their attempts. However, while the show frames every number in a way reminiscent of popular musical songs and tropes, it also reveals the irony of both the figures and the country all together. A great example is the first song, “The Ballad of Booth”, sung obviously by John Wilkes Booth. In the song, booth reflects on why he chose to murder Abraham Lincoln, painting a picture of himself as a man who wanted to avenge the ravaged South and dead confederate soldiers. He believes Lincoln was a tyrant and deserved to pay for his crimes. This is all presented as a lovely soliloquy of a misrepresented antihero. However, the show’s tone changes as Booth begins to ramble and rant. Delusional and angry, his words begin to shift to show his darker side as he uses racial slurs and defends slavery. After Booth commits suicide, the narrator even reflects on how Booth was a madman who pathed the way for bloodshed and violence. A similar theme is carried throughout the rest of the show, portraying the assassins as deeply disturbed figures who while having points to their madness, went about in the worst way possible. The overall theme of the show is that the American Dream, while ideal to many, enables some awful things to take place. Every assassin believed that it was their right to murder a president because they wanted liberty, freedom and happiness. Whether it was for their party, their country, their welfare, for love, or something else, their twisted minds all found a loophole. My point is that the musical, while giving the villains of our history time to shine, also paints an accurate picture of both the monsters these figures were and the shortcomings of our country’s philosophy. It’s possible to paint both an entertaining and informative picture, as well as an honest one.
Mad Hatter I think it depends on the person the work focuses on. I do think there are people in history who are worth celebrating and for groups whose history is traditionally under represented ex. women, POC, LGBT people I think engaging in media that upholds those individuals can be empowering. However you can still run into problems with ‘hero worship’ style content. I know the recent Madame CJ Walker series on Netflix was pretty inaccurate and had issues. So I think we can enjoy stuff that holds people up and celebrates figures in some contexts but we still need to be aware that this may not be the whole story and do a little research.
I love this musical, but wouldn't dare to think that anything that is depicted is actually historically correct. It's a hip hop musical with people named after historical figures. It would be like playing Wolfenstein and then thinking nazis had arcane superpowers.
according to the history channel, they did!
Wait do they not?
I mean, Wolfenstein is supposed to be fiction though. This is supposed to genuinely depict the struggles of these founders even with the intentional inaccuracies. The intent doesn't change just because it makes the play look worse.
I laughed, but it's genuinely a pretty popular understanding that the nazis did indeed have superpowers. So many dramatised documentaries about nazi super-weapons and occult tendencies, that they were so advanced and so smart etcetcetc... That's the same goddamn propaganda they worked so hard to put out and maintain before and during WWII, and the popular imagination is so enamoured with it that they're still happily eating it up nearly a century later. Wow that's depressing.
The nazi had access to spirit world and could summon demons. But Hilter and jesus put stop to that. You need to read a book.
Bro I don’t think Lin Manuel Miranda is considered an expert on Hamilton’s life, nor do I think most people get the impression that the hip hop broadway musical is historically accurate. No one watches Jesus Christ superstar and thinks Andy Webber is a biblical scholar
Perfect comparison.
I thought JCSS was pretty accurate to The Passion
I gotta kinda disagree. The Broadway play has shaped in many ways how some people view the revolutionary war theres nothing wrong with examining the faults of that
i disagree. i've seen a lot of people my age claiming they only did well in their us history class because they were such huge hamilton fans.
You watched Jesus Christ Superstar. A being of culture I see.
I think you’re putting Lin too high on a pedestal of “Hamilton expert.” I never thought of him as the end all be all in founding father history, nor did I never second guess things in the play, which is why I’ve done my fair share of research (perhaps that’s a good thing since the american education system truly fails us)
Also I never got the vibe that Lin was trying to make Alex the victim in the reynolds affair. I think Say No to This is SOLEY the character hamilton trying to victimize himself, i never got the vibe that Lin was trying to sympathize with him.
And I’m not saying there aren’t things I wish that were in there, I do wish there were more about how Alexander wasn’t actually a “slave savior” and fully played his part in racism. I try to remember that it’s hard to put everything you want into a 2 hour stage play. It’s tricky, I love the play, but I def understand the criticisms
I really think he just wrote a musical about a figure he found interesting and took whatever liberties he wanted because it's just a musical. He didn't know it would explode and be taken as someone's history lesson plan.
To be fair, in the second Act Hamilton's character is portraited as an idealistic greedy maniac who cheated on his wife and caused the death of his son (at least that's what I took from it), so I wouldn't say that we were supposed to sympathize with him at all.
@@isaguima9731 I completely agree!! it's just a story with some chosen moments to emphasize how a man got himself to the top and then destroyed his own life. we watch him do so and we're like wow how could he be such an idiot???
@@sierrad6771 Yes. We can clearly notice this when the musical emphasizes little things like when Hamilton promised Lafayette to help with France after the war, and later in the second act he breaks his words in the court battle when defending they should remain neutral in the France x England war.
Once he became rich and the war ended, he stopped being revolutionary and became quite conservative and practized a lot of victim playing, contradicting his past self. For me, it's obvious we should see the character as an anti hero.
daveed diggs also disagrees with the idea that america is as good as hamilton acts
Didn't he say Hamilton was a bad idea when he was first pitched it or something?
@@Advent3546 he did
daveed diggs good
Daveed Diggs has definitely gone on to do more valuable work in Clipping. Listening to his music now, it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't agree with Hamilton the musical
@@mojotheaverage Clipping started before Hamilton, they formed in 2009 and their debut mixtape was in February of 2013
"Floating around for a few months" dude that art's been on Tumblr for YEARS. It's been a meme on there for a long time.
it's somehow spread into the mainstream public consciousness only recently though
I think it should be noted the artist was a kid when they drew it so while it is funny, people need to not be so harsh on them
Ikr these twitter users know NOTHING about the lore
I feel like the musical acknowledges its own inaccuracies several times during the show. "Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story", "Room Where It Happened", and "Burn" all show how there are plenty of gaps in this story. We don't know what Hamilton, Jefferson, and Madison discussed, we don't know how Eliza reacted to the Reynolds Pamphlet, etc. Miranda finds creative ways to gloss over the fact that he doesn't have the full story, and he even outright admits it to it with these songs, and that's some of the most interesting parts of the play to me. I can still absolutely see where it can become problematic, though.
I strategically avoided all Hamilton content for the last couple of years so I could eventually see the performance with fresh eyes. I finally saw it on Disney + this weekend. I thought it was a technically great performance, but I also walked away from the experience thinking that Hamilton was a pretty bad guy who was so consumed with pride and a lust for power that he was 100% willing to throw slaves under the bus, abandon his family, and publicly humiliate his wife (for whom he had no respect), for a shot at power. Aaron Burr came off as the low key unsung anti-hero, and by the end I was pretty much rooting for Burr to get it over and done with and give Hamilton his comeuppance. It surprises me to hear that this wasn't the intention of the show. I hated Hamilton from his first song, he sounded like a total weeny and he just got worse and worse over time. I find it so hard to believe that this wasn't on purpose given how well crafted everything else was. I'm glad you made this video, but that it was even necessary unsettles me.
I do think some of it was intended. Not necessarily Alex's death but certainly his comeuppance. Definitely his damming pride, his lust for power and unstoppable force to get there. In the worst ways. At least that's the vibe I got from other (let's say normal) fans, cast interviews and some of Lin's statements.
you kind of half got the point, i think in the first half of the story youre supposed to feel as though hamilton deserved it, his pride and will wre warranted since he came from nothing and won a war for his country, but in the second half he doesnt stop, he keeps going even though his time in the spotlight is well over, and that ultimately leads to his demise
7:57 to be fair, in light of recent events within the Smash community, maybe Hamilton *would* have been a competitive Smash gamer.
*OOF*
@brmbly 🅱️edophiles
@brmbly A bunch of top-tier Smash players have been accused of sexually assaulting minors, with a lot of them straight up admitting to it.
And Jefferson
Wait, when did hamilton sexually assault a minor? I'm sorry if I missed something.
In times like this, I'm reminded of a song from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend:
Life is a gradual series of revelations
That occur over a period of time
It's not some carefully crafted story
It's a mess, and we're all gonna die
If you saw a movie that was like real life
You'd be like, "What the hell was that movie about?
It was really all over the place."
Life doesn't make narrative sense
People aren't characters. They're complicated
And their choices don't always make sense
That being said, it's really messed-up
That you banged your ex-boyfriend's dad
Wow, that just...depressed me....
i keep forgetting that she banged her ex-boyfriend's dad
Josh Groban telling it like it is.
I'd never heard this before, thank you
Love that show
I always love the crowd who's like "OMFG who would've thought that rap music and historical bits about historical figures would work so well???" and I'm here like "Epic Rap Battles has been a thing forever by now"
OnlyRoke ikr?
But that’s different. This is more educational. Those are more for roasting. Unless ur talking about the cabinet battles then it’s just that their from the same time and their arguing actual events. In the raps I’ve seen of ERBOH I’ve only seen different people from different times fighting. Never at the same time over one issue.
@@threedicksonabench3141 erb is more educational than hamilton
What about the opening theme to Liberty's Kids?
@@threedicksonabench3141 educational? They're telling a fictional story at this point. ERBOH has a lot of history accuracity.
Hey remember when Alexander Hamilton got mad at John Adams because Hamilton wanted to go into an all out war with France to set up America as a global military power and Adams thought that was a dumb idea?
Bingo!
Lol no wonder Obama liked this musical so much. It validated some of his worst impulses.
@@discountchocolate4577 this particular event wasn't shown in the musical
JamieDS Filthy Republicans don’t know how to fact check lmao
@@jamieds6538 I think that's sort of the point
The Greatest Showman and Hamilton are the same thing to me. They're amazing musicals and fun to watch ONLY when you separate them from the real people.
I feel like Greatest Showman fails a lot more just cause its a lot more boring, and the songs are just not that good, musically speaking, theyre fine as songs, but to fit in a musical narrative they are not.
Requiring completely dismissing actual facts actually ruins stuff for me.
It's one thing to make changes for media format purposes, it's another thing to portray incorrect information as some sort of documentary or even just semi-accurate portrayals.
R Nickerson I think it’s more of a character thing. Burr is a good example. In real life he was an absolute dick, but in the musical, he’s more of a sympathetic character. It takes traits and amplifies them or nullifies them
@@coolioschoolio4359 thing is about Burr though, is that he might have, and was a massive dick but his story is still fairly accurate in the sense that he did go through this, he just also was massive cunt, and even then I pretty much get the sense that most everyone in Hamilton is a terrible person without having to actually know their full life story, and Burr included, he ends up being the one to kill Hamilton afterall.
Greatest showman on the other hand does something SOOOOO much worse, which is actually make PT Barnum appear like a good guy, like the worst thing he ever does not let his circus "friends" into his fancy party. Otherwise he just treated everyone so nice and he just wanted everyone to have a better life isint he great!! When in reality he literally treated them all like shit and didn't give a fuck about any of his "employees"
Imma veto that fam. Hamilton takes historical figures were supposed to respect and displays them in a way where we can respect them according to modern ideals.
The greatest showman award bait that ignores history and pretends to push a moral
The screech I made at the “invented the swivel chair, is a child ra-“ part...oh boy I’m going to hell 😂
Say hi to Jefferson when you get there
@Lucas McInnis LMAO
About the Angelica and Hamilton pairing, Lin mentions that it was to make the plot more interesting. He knows that Angelica was married before they even met.
are you saying Liberty Kids isn’t historically correct?
that cant be right
Impossible
Jesus, my whole life is a lie
this is betrayal
Honestly Liberty's Kids is pretty good at addressing slavery since it doesn't shy away from it.
This is an interesting companion piece to Lindsay Ellis JK Rowling editorial. As I get older I become more casual with fandoms
“Becoming more casual with fandoms” is much more optimistic than my “I lost my passion for things I once loved” 😭
I watched this immediately after Lindsay's video, would you kindly leave my brain
@@jrg2866 Me too. This video was in my recommended right after watching Lindsey's video.
James Allen McCune’s Butthole ; literally like loads of people’s entire lives revolve around their fandoms and they usually have mental health issues so it’s such an bad escapist coping mechanism,, honest to god i am so glad i got out of them when i did and i’m much happier and healthier now. unfortunately my ex wasn’t as lucky and seeing how his fandoms ruined him and our relationship as he came into adulthood haunts me
@@jrg2866 what a coincidence, me too
I think this is one of those things that you can enjoy knowing that its obviously very romanticized and not accurate. But, the problem comes when fans embrace it as reality and do all sorts of weird shit. Typical fandom, i guess.
They dont fail to make Hamilton look like a bad person. This isnt romanticized hes a bad person and youre supposed to get bad vibes from this dude. Yes he did good things but hes still not a great person and they show that well in the musical but it seems to go over peoples heads somehow
One funny thing I heard is act 1 of Hamilton has you going "Fuck yeah, Hamilton!" and act 2 has you going "Yeah, fuck Hamilton!"
He was a complicated person.
It’s not just about Hamilton though, and they do significantly downplay the things they did. Like Thomas Jefferson is presented as this fast talking, wise cracking comedian who happens to be a bit of an asshole, instead of the slave owning child rapist he actually was
Yeah apparently advocating murderous violence, adultery, and underhanded tactics is "heroic" lmao
@@TuIdiota you're joking...you're joking, I can't believe my eyes
I like Lin Manuel's Hamilton. I agree that it wasn't that accurate, but I think it serves as a gate. I didn't know a thing about American history till i came across this musical. I was in love with the story and the music, but it also made me separate the characters and the real thing. "I wanna know if this is real", that thought made me investigate about everything. Last year I had the chance to visit hamilton's grave, that's when I realized I had 2 different hamiltons in my head: one being Lin Manuel Miranda and the other one being the guy in the 10 dollar bill. The fact that there's no way you can relate the cast to the real founding fathers makes it easy to separate them. Anyways, I take it as art, and not so much as a biography or a precise depiction of history.
The character's domestic life is written to give the story a compelling narrative and isn't meant to be completely accurate. However, the facts regarding the Battle of Yorktown, the Federalist Papers, the arguments for and against establishing a national bank to assume the state's debts, and the Funding Act of 1790 (In the room where it happened) are accurate. And that's what's important.
I’m still mad at The Greatest show man because I know in a decade or so we’ll get lists like supprising things you didn’t know about P T Barnum. Like it porays a woman with a sucseful career who stopped working with Barnum because she was more philanthropic than him and basically calls her a manipulative temptress home wrecker. Not to mention the countless list of human rights violations
I could go on about my in narrative problems but no one is actually reading this rant and if they are they should just go watch sponge bob the musical.
I just hope everyone forgot about that awful movie & moved on lol
empty sky one of my countries major radio stations is still like 20% Greatest Show Man. It used to be like 60% so small blessings
empty sky you should watch cynical historian take on it
The Shen Partei thanks for the recommendation.
The Shen Partei I watched the video and I don’t agree with his exploration point as he seems to go from sources of newspapers for the white and able bodied I will try to no write a needlessly wrong essay no one will read but I’ll probably end up doing it anyway. His General Tom Thumb point ignores The fairy wedding situation, the faulse babies situation but most importantly that they where giving him alcohol and cigars from childhood. Most sources gloss over this to analyse his fame and I’m going to stop typing before I start 20 different rants no one want to hear.
History: the fandom you can get a degree in
bruhhhh
The only reason why I chose to study it
I think this is presuming a lot about Lin-Manuel Miranda's intention. He couldn't have known the impact this play would have, I think he just found Hamilton fascinating as a historical figure and thought he'd take some creative liberties and write a juicy play. The whole musical really just seems like the conflation of someone being a hip-hop and history geek at the same time, and seeing a historical biography they read through the prism of their hip-hop fandom.
(I think all the critique that the play doesn't adequately address slavery is absolutely true, I just don't buy the speculations about LMM's motivations in this video.)
edit: Also just remembered that there is a LMM episode of Drunk History, which is probably a better reflection of how he actually views the real Alexander Hamilton (not justifying the affair at all, amused by his failings).
I don't know if owning slaves and sexual assault are generally accepted as "amusing failings"
trying to pick the straightest line through this story.... so, hamilton has an affair! -lmm
@@w.k.astrolabe280 at the time, that was socially accepted. nobody is saying it's good, but it's amusing how much society has changed.
@@aspwillow sorry but it never was socially accepted. Many people outside of our founding fathers were already trying to get rid of slavery even before 1776 and sexual assault wasn't acceptable either.
@@w.k.astrolabe280 are you talking about Thomas Jefferson or Alexander Hamilton?? Because Hamilton didn’t own slaves nor did he sexually assault anyone that we know of, Thomas Jefferson did.
Anyone remember Liberty Kids? I actually think they handled both the good and the bad of the American revolution extremely well, showing many different perspectives. They even talked about how the majority of colonists were loyalists at the time, my point being is it was a great show and I’d love to see it reanimated.
I do. In fact, I watched the entire series 3 years ago and it's such a criminally underrated show imo! As of typing, all 40 episodes are up for free officially here on RUclips from the copyright holders (Wildbrain) themselves if you haven't watched it in its entirety already!
That fact that the founding fathers would be rolling in their graves over the fan art makes me very happy.
They deserve as much
I highly doubt it, but possibly
@@yay7707 They would. They were racist and cisgender, and probably wouldn't appreciate being drawn as transgender POC.
@@sylph8005 they definitely wouldn’t understand it what so ever, they would also probably try to duel you over it too
@@chrishansen2409 The Hatsune Miku binder they wouldn't understand, but they would probably understand being drawn as black. They'd hate that on its own, even before you describe to them what binders and Hatsune Miku are. Also, they probably wouldn't duel you for it, but just talk condescendingly to you about how you don't respect them enough
I look on Hamilton just as I look at other biopics: 95% fiction and 5% fact. Just enjoy it for what it is, and go look at other sources for more historical accuracy.
yes thank you finally someone
Yeah I am in love with the musical but I am aware of how bad the people are themselves. I just accept the fantasy of Hamilton and enjoy it but I do not condone all of their actions.
@@UsernameVincent I'm no where near surpised i didn't spell that right, my social circle already accepted I suck at it XD. Thanks for telling me though :D
@@UsernameVincent I'd say so, just a bunch of crackheads in a group
This is a good comment. Thank you.
_Hamilton_ is probably to American history what _Blackadder_ was for English history.
For the love of God, don't take it seriously.
At least Blackadder was correct in what the people of the time thought about the various events depicted. Most obviously being WWI being abysmally false. Some parts of the Napoleonic Series being somewhat true and somewhat false. Hamilton is just Rent re-parsed for similarly hipster dipshits that pretend to know history but in actuality don't have a clue about anything.
@@mmouse1886
Haha so true!
Lets have people of color playing slave owners and white washing their history in a woke musical. I honestly thought it was satire when I heard songs from the musical
Blackadder was hilarious, Hamilton is...diverting at best.
@@micahgelfand8282 So did I. I legitimately thought it was a deconstruction.
@@mmouse1886 Well said.
You had me a Till you compared Hamilton to the Spongebob Musical 😭😭😭
*Alexander SquarePants*
The spongebob musical is a tad better in my non solid opinion
And spongebob is better
Spongebob is just as good why is everyone hating on itty
Olive in the Room Bc they need shit to hate on ig
As a work of art (the story, the songs, the staging, etc) Hamilton is truly something special. The fact that it is targeting older audiences in its themes means that most viewers should be old enough to understand that this is a work of fiction based on real people/events. The bigger conversation should be about learning to differentiate the art and the history. It seems that many consumers cannot do this, and that is why there are so many arguments about the way historical figures are portrayed. There was a similar debate when The Greatest Showman came out about how Barnum was portrayed as a heroic figure when in reality he did some terrible things. Overall I don’t think it’s fair to limit art by saying historical figures and events need to be portrayed for the good and the bad, but instead we should be able to take the piece of art for what it is and learn to accept that it is not always (very rarely to be truthful) historically accurate.
Finally, someone else who sees this. If every piece of historical fiction was portrayed historically accurate, no one would consume it: it's long, it's mostly boring with a few moments of excitement, and it's fucked up. Yes, there is bad for every good- that's human nature for you; but that doesn't mean you need to include everything bad thing to appreciate the good.
I wish more people were capable of thinking this way
Yeah! And plus it’s literally a fun hip hop musical abt the founding fathers with a majority POC cast, I never really expected it to be completely historically accurate. Yes Ik these were all bad ppl IRL. More than that, watching the musical actually got me interested in finding out the real history behind these stories in the first place.
@@jaskds On the other hand, representation has real-world impact; it affects the people who lived it (and/or their decendents), who's celebrated and who's forgotten. It also affects what we believe and how we react in the present. With a work like this, I think it's obviously ahistorical enough that it's ok, but I don't think as many people know the truth behind The Greatest Showman. That's not to say it's a bad work and don't watch it... But it's important to be aware, and not everyone is. This leads into a broader debate about the responsibility of art, which I'm not going to get into here, but... Suffice it to say it's complicated and I think there's a lot of gray area.
The issue is why idealize these people and portray them as not flawed enough?
Don’t mind me just trying on my hatsune miku binder
oh god I'm having flashbacks
nothing wrong with that btw , it's not cringe or wrong , you can be a vocaloid fan how much you want and don't let anyone tell you otherwise , I know you just made a joke about the other guy but I'm saying that intended to anyone in a general way
@@thefakepie1126 The issue isn't with vocaloid or wearing binders or things like that, it's that they're romanticising a real life historical figure that, most likely, was very racist, homophobic, transphobic and more. As a trans person myself, I just really don't want to woobify problematic historical figures.
Ow
what is a hatsune miku binder I'm afraid to Google it?
"Competitive Smash Bros." in a hamilton biography is absolutely something that didn't age well.
This comment hit me like a train
Oh noooooo
Honestly I find Thomas Jefferson much more interesting than Hamilton: not because he was a better person mind you, but because he is muuuuuch harder to reconcile and battled a lot with his own hypocrisy as an American and a slaveholder. Reading a lot of his written works, he constantly battled with both a desire to end slavery and a desire to keep his status (a surprisingly common thing for Virginians of his time). Hell, the first draft of the declaration included the emancipation of slaves, though you can't give too much credit because they still didn't go through with it. The dude may have wanted slavery gone and ended up banning the trans-Atlantic slave trade in America, but he certainly used the system throughout his life and took advantage of his slaves, often in sexual ways.
I could have gone several more years before I had to see trans Thomas Jefferson again.
I could have gone a lifetime.
I saw Hamilton the other night and really enjoyed it, but definitely was questioning how much of it was actually real. I think your video makes a great case for the need to be considerate of the true historical nature, but didn't harp on it being like inherently a bad thing because of it. Was more informative than judgmental so I appreciate that tone
AustinTroth I thought it was ok
AustinTroth this was exactly what i thought. like were all the conversations completely made up just to push the story in the way it did in real life or was there some truth there?
@@JoeySells. Most of it is true, but there are some things that aren't true. Most of Burr in the first half is made up for the musical but the musical is fairly accurate as far as a musical about a founding father can be.
Most of the history in the play was accurate. There were a few major changes to Hamilton's family life for the purposes of theme and character development. There were also some concessions to production, like leaving out James Monroe and replacing him with another founding father who was already in the play. The characters themselves were also shifted along with the Overton window into something close to the modern equivalents of their historical views. There were some acknowledgements of the real history where the play didn't talk about it, but a lot of things were specifically included or left out for purposes of the modern narrative they were telling. Hamilton was actually an immigrant, but I doubt he thought of himself that way. I'm surprised they didn't include Washington insisting on the integration of the Hessian mercenaries from Germany. Franklin was afraid they were too foreign, but Washington insisted they would become American just like anyone else.
Taking it *as a piece of historical fan fiction,* it’s pretty good. I’d like to hope the majority of people watch it knowing it’s not any kind of accurate historical account, but I guess there’s always going to be someone who takes it dead serious.
It’s historical fan fiction. Anyone saying or thinking otherwise is a fool or mistaken. I don’t see a need to get your briefs in a bunch over it. There are far more toxic and problematic things in American media, and going after Hamilton seems like a cheap ploy to get views off of a popular IP
I never liked this guys content anyway
I don't agree that Hamilton is portrayed as a victim regarding the affair. The song "Burn" is arguably the most emotional and powerful of the play. This song makes you feel terrible for Eliza, and is meant to make the viewer realize the true victim of the affair.
I feel like this isn't a fair evaluation of the play itself. You just took small parts and pieces that support a cynical perspective of the narrative.
I accept that Hamilton is not a true historical depiction. I don't think this hurts the play at all. The way it's presented by an African American cast is brilliant and a good thing in my opinion.
I just recently stumbled on your work and I like it a lot. I obviously enjoyed this play and I think it brings a lot to the table. It's very well deserving of its popularity IMO.
THANK YOU! Finally I found someone who was able to explain it rather than jumboing words together like me
Everyone please take a moment to remember the Hamilton fanart is a joke that artist was bullied so bad because people didn't get the irony
it was fully serious but made by a very confused and misinformed artist, who was a minor at the time.
@@FauxParagon but it wasn't wrong tho (by wrong I mean morally , not historicaly) , you are allowed to create your own worlds of fiction , and don't forget , being a furry isn't wrong , being a fan of japanese culture (anime , vocaloid , ect...) isn't wrong , being genderfluid isn't wrong , and ect ect , neither is making characters with those traits wrong , and it isn't cringe either , he shouldn't have gotten bullied for it
I actually feel like that fanart indicates that people understand the musical isn't true to life. Like, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like people are more likely to create their own interpretations of fictional characters than historical figures. Of course, the existence of the musical kind of speaks against that... But then again, the text there stays within the boundaries enough that it feels kind of safe. It feels like a loose interpretation of history, is what I'm getting at. And I think the creation of that fanart, making it even more unlike history, shows that the creator of that fanart understood that there was a lot of fiction in the musical, which caused them to see them more as fictional characters than historical figures.
@@thefakepie1126 Imagine trying to make Hitler an ugu kawaii girl
it's such a weird happenstance that THAT hamilton modern au post got picked among probable dozens to become the meme that it has become. i feel like these sorts of things were everywhere in the hamilton tags for a quick minute, with the justification of "i don't like or care about the founding fathers, i just like the musical characters". i'm sure every other kid who made a post comparable to thomas jefferson with the miku binder feels like they dodged a deadly bullet
"floating around for a couple of months" bro those were made YEARS ago, they just come back anytime people remember hamilton existed bc they were so bad even then. it's even funnier thinking about the fact that the same person who drew them also drew RL ship art of two of their teachers from school AND are a cop apologist on twitter.
Well if it being ironic is true, then they were an edgelord trying to mock "SJWs"
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 i severely doubt that they were ironic, as a person who was unfortunately into amrev tumblr around the time hamilton came out. im surprised that's the only set of hamilton character headcanons that's clawed its way out of the rabbit hole and into the scrutiny of the real world. sure, milder things have come from the fandom, but far, far wilder things have come from the hamilton fandom as well
weren't they a minor when they made that? it's funny and also disheartening that some mistakes from teenage years can become widespread
You say cop apologist like it's a bad thing to support our law enforcement officers.
@@captaincomic8678 Nordic Gamer: Yes
I really don't think Miku Binder Jefferson is in any way a romanticized version of the actual Thomas Jefferson, but rather designed to be made into a character that the kind of people who worship the founding fathers would hate.
i watched hamilton and my boo asked me how accurate it was because she knows I like american history and i responded "well..... they definitely could have at the very least made thomas jefferson a bigger villian if they had wanted to". She silently nodded, which signals to me that yea there was way more racism in reality. That being said we both enjoyed the operetta a lot and i think she is becoming interested in American history because of it. In my eyes anything that makes you think and explore more knowledge has done its job.
I don't ever think of Hamilton as the story of the founding fathers. I see it as using historical events and characters as a framing device to tell modern stories.
My own personal take is that Hamilton is an absolute mess of idolism, but for all the right reasons.
I love hearing stories about my great-grandparents and the shenanigans they got up to during Prohibition. I love that “revolutionary spirit” they had. The thing is: I guarantee they would have disowned me for being gay.
Ignoring that isn’t fair, exactly, because they would deserve to be called out. However, focusing on that and that alone is only going to make me miserable and angry at a life that no longer exists, and leaving their misdeeds out of my own personal narrative of them doesn’t prevent me from knowing their opinions were a huge pile of dogshit.
Hamilton himself doesn’t deserve to be painted in some golden light, but people who’ve spent their entire lives being discriminated against absolutely deserve to, if only for a few hours, live in that golden world where the founders of their country care about their lives.
I mean you can make it multifaceted, doesn't need to be complete nihilistic condemnation or naive idolization. Hell, maybe it's good black people don't think America cares about them, less Ben Carsons in the world.
Maybe they would have disowned you, or maybe accepted you, or your great-grandfather would disown you and your great -grandmother may have accepted you. Or very likely, they would have loved you but also ask when you would settle down and get married and have kids. People are complicated and may not live up to your ideals, but you sort through the good and the bad, and you get to decide if the bad outweighs the good, and how far you are willing to accept effort from others.
One thing I will say for 1776: "Molasses and Rum and Slaves" is (unless I misremember) a very, very clear villain song in a story that totally lacks villains, is significantly more dramatic and memorable than most of the surrounding events, and is never really rejected or refuted by the characters. They just ... ignore it. South Carolina folds because unity is important right now, and Georgia has switched sides. Georgia switches sides because a faithless elector just decides to switch the vote in the middle of the night. A deeper examination makes you (rightly) question the real morality of the men depicted, but it also does show that the story is deeper than a surface description would have you believe.
I unironically agree with that final statement the Spongebob Squarepants musical was god-tier
The three-fifths compromise wasn't about deciding that "a slave was less than a man", that was a given for all of them. The southern states were trying to count slaves towards their populations to boost their statures in the house of representatives, even though they couldn't vote of course, and the northern states saw through that pretty obvious BS, wanted them to not count at all and they decided on three-fifths as a compromise. In a country where slavery is encouraged of course the slaves would be considered less than human. It was a value-neutral decision within an evil nation.
And don't forget that everyone was counting women and childern.
... despite neither of those classes having any voters.
suddenllybah and anyone who didn’t own property, who also couldn’t vote.
"that was a given for all of them" No it wasn't. If you're going to correct a historical error then don't do it with another one. It's mentally easier to assume they all thought the same, but they all had different perspectives and journeys. The part he spoke of Hamilton specifically I'm pretty certain isn't in the very book he referenced having read that book myself last winter so outside of twitter contrarians I've seen no evidence of him being pro-slavery and in contrast to my history career I've seen tones of evidence including Hamilton's own writing showcasing strong opinions towards abolishing slavery and the very book it's apparently in conveys an entirely different message of Hamilton being sympathetic to the troubles of slavery having been raised as an illegitimate child and viewed as lesser. With none of the moments referenced in this video even being in said book. People are talking about history and it's importance to art and the threat to history though art but the biggest threat to history is social media where checking if what you're saying is even true is a luxury.
Ben Franklin for example's opinions on it radically changed over his life, he believed it was normal to have house slaves because everyone else did but then read books on it in France and it turned him into a full anti-cruelty activist to all living things, he became vegetarian and became known as an old kook who would yell about slaves being wrong, making it so his fortune couldn't be inherited by his daughter unless she and her husband give up their slaves for good. But because his journey can't be surmised as a Tweet no one cares.
Yes: it was the slave states that wanted to count slaves as a whole person and the free states that opposed it, because "counting slaves as a whole person" in this context doesn't include giving them the right to vote.
@@DrMattPhillips idk if that exonerates him. If you're talking about chernow, chernow isn't immune to bias about figures he feels invested in and iirc was writing for a mass market. Plus vocal condemnation of slavery doesn't translate to antiracism or even being that much of an abolitionist (see Jefferson, Washington). Hamilton was involved in the NY manumission society, but that org was more invested in convincing some slave owners to release enslaved ppl rather than challenging the institution or helping free people from enslavers regardless of enslaver's thoughts. So imho Quinton's point still stands: the musical portraying Hamilton as a proto abolitionist is dishonest and glosses over the ways in which Hamilton was a bystander to historical evil/complicit.
"[Hamilton's attempts to justify his affair] also comes across as Lin Manuel and other historians trying to do the same thing." You do kind of lose me, here? "I'm tired" is an absurdly weak justification, and in the same breath he's admitting to longing for his wife's sister, so I don't get any indication that Miranda was arguing on behalf of Alexander here. I'd definitely watch a follow-up video on this because as it stands, not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Anyway, otherwise cool video.
I view it as a biopic like bohemian rhapsody or rocket man. It’s based on a historical event, but at its core, it’s main purpose is entertainment, not education.
As a history nerd I've learned to appreciate any historically based story as a work of fiction with historical influences. There is no perfectly historical movie or book or series, not even documentaries do a perfect job. It's unfortunate...
Agh, that fucking trans Jefferson pic... Maybe I should hate it, but I just... I just can't bring myself to. I feel too sorry for it. Whoever the artist was clearly had their heart in the right place, even if not their brain, so all the dunking on it, however justified, just feels... mean. I can't imagine where the artist is now or what they're doing, but I do feel for them. Maybe I'm too sympathetic towards good intentions, I dunno. If some dumb, poorly-thought-through piece of art I did just for fun and positivity years ago suddenly got the whole internet laughing at me, I dunno how I'd cope. It's... It's complicated.
Also, that outro. Somebody's been watching OSP, huh?
I kinda get it. My art was so terrible years ago I was a meme on 4chan. But hey if they made this years ago the probably feel the same way we do now.
i remember hearing they attempted suicide a while back due to all the bullying they got but i don’t know what happened after
edit: i looked it up and couldn’t find anything about an attempt, but apparently she apologized for miku binder jefferson and the gang, alongside other bad things she did. she said she was just projecting onto them and didn’t realize the implications of what she was doing.
but these days she’s openly anti-BLM on twitter, ships real people (and apparently draws smut of them but i’m not about to look into that), roleplays as kurt cobain, and allegedly sexualizes minors on her tumblr but again i don’t want to look into that. she also drew smut of her teacher, someone said he groomed her and is now is jail but i couldn’t find screenshots or any other proof of that
@@MyCatEatsPlastic and not a single source was cited
“Addicted to cocaine”
Yeah, you had me at ‘clearly had their heart in the right place, even if not their brains’
Vania Hammad yeahhhh, that, uh.... that might take a little more explaining lmao
You seem to be convinced that lin wrote this thinking noone would question it, but lin has stated that he changed things for the sake of a good narrative. Hamilton does not pretend to be historically accurate, it is based in a historical figure, but it is very clear that this is a modern interpretation of the events.
Basically, if we judge the real people by today's moral standards, they would be unlikeable assholes. Because they were.
These people have been turned into characters for the sake of making them fit better with today's standards. They are caricatures, with believable motivations and desires inside a story, but characters nonetheless. Lin Manuel Miranda has at no point pretended otherwise, and you can see him talk shit about the real person hamilton in some cases.
So your point about Lin and other historians justifying Hamilton's actions is just boogus. Lin legit calls Hamilton out on it, and calls him a complete moron (or something similar) for writing the Reynolds pamphlet.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Lin purposely put the "wait for it" chorus in Hurricane because he thought that Hamilton was a dumbass for writing the Reynold's Pamphlet.
They were monstrous by the standards of their own day. You know how you can know that? You need only have asked a slave or a Native American what they thought of these blood soaked freaks.
Any musical about the founding fathers should end with a Tarantino-style alternate ending of them getting absolutely wrecked into bloody paste.
It's weird people say that you have to write them as morally white because assholes don't sell well, even though assholes do sell well and people enjoy watching them for various reasons.
@@shinjinobrave slavery, while factually fucking awful and evil, is also a huge part of our history. Since we abolished it, there is no nuance between different slave owners, if you own slaves you suck.
This is good, that is what progress sounds like.
However, we cannot hold historical figures to the same standard. They grew up with slavery being a normal thing, and whether they opposed it or not, they would have slaves of their own as it was just something that came with money and power. So in those times, being nice to your slaves or being sadist and abusing them does make a difference.
When the time to abolish slavery arrived, those that denied and resisted should 100% be accountable for it, but not every person that owned slaves was a bad person, because what defines good and evil has changed since then.
These people are not perfect, they were just politicians and human beings capable of mistakes, filled with pride, their ego and their self centered views very much like people today. The social standards they had to comform to were different, but people have always been the same
Edit: also native americans were killing each other and abusing each other much more brutally than europeans did way before europeans even arrived. They are only seen as victims because the ones that remained for the longest were not warmongers and they lost a lot of their people and culture in an unfair seeming way, but factually europeans occupying america were not doing anything the natives wouldn't have done to each other, they just won, that is the only difference.
@@IsaSaien Thank you for bringing some nuance to historical representation. A lot of people look at historical figures and judge them based on modern standards and don't consider moral relativism. I can't hold it against my grandparents for not taking mental health seriously because the time period that they grew up, it wasn't taken seriously and wasn't properly known. Slavery was just an institution at the time, which became obsolete due to a mixture of technology and better moral standards. Besides the founders had to have some moral issues, because they essentially overthrew the government when they decided to replace the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution. The idea of a large scale democratic republic was risky and assumed would be a failure. America has issues in the past and future, but I can at least say that America gets better as time goes on, but we have to remember it was a process.
Hamilton woke fan-art and Rule 34: Exists
Alexander Hamilton: I didn't die for this
Aaron Burr: I didn't shoot Hamilton for this
John Adams: Somehow this is Jefferson's fault
Honestly stop bringing up the Thomas Jefferson picture. It was clearly done by a 16 year old who was just starting to experiment with gender and transitioning. Enough with it
Right? This has no bearing on what you're trying to say don't attack people like that.
@@andysanto6767 Stupidity deserves to be made fun of, no?
@@captaincomic8678 not really, no. Certainly not to this extent, and certainly not when nobody is getting hurt.
@@andysanto6767 Oh please, you make it sound like it's a war crime to mock people for doing stupid shit.
I think it's important to realise Miranda has the cast as majority poc because he is poc and understands that poc are under represented in musical theatre and it's harder for poc actors to get roles. Although it allows him to not focus on some of the issues that is not why he did it and he has said many times it is not history, it shouldn't be viewed as such but yeah great video, totally agree
The play is another attempt at woke capitalism. It’s trash
@@affgrim6449 what are you even talking about? Its got some crazy good music, and the acting and singing is undeniably top tier. I get not liking it but its far far from "trash", and is technically speaking quite impressive. Despite the issues presented in this video, the play is still quite well made.
@@affgrim6449 so the alternative is to keep poc from being in theatre?
@@affgrim6449 No you are
i mean, imo there are a lot of better shows that have an all-poc cast. i appreciate what he was trying to do, but that doesn’t excuse the show from criticism.
I never saw that these characters were being presented in a seemingly sympathetic light. Quinton's big point about this issue revolves around 'Say no to this.' You mention how lin-manuel has Hamilton presenting his case as the victim in his opening lines, about him being exhausted and such. "...I was weak, I was awake. You'd never seen a bastard orphan more in need of a break." However, the previous number titled 'Take a break' is literally all about Eliza and Angelica begging Alexander to leave New York for a short vacation. This makes 'Say no to this' an outright VILLAIN song, and the show knows this.
Overall, the show is attempting to capture something honorable about the ideals that these men had. These hypocritical, despicable men such as Jefferson and such are not role models, but they did shape history. Moreover, the story being told is one of pursuit of power, betrayal, legacy and so much more. The revolution setting and the characters within are ultimately just setting. It's the way the musical composition weaves a story through subtle motifs and themes that truly makes this show work.
I disagree completely. In this, we are isolating the events themselves: Hamilton is asked to take a break. He does not. He then falls victim to his needing of a break. However, the way this is portrayed is with Hamilton as the victim; regardless of the actual actions, the light (literally, low blue light on a sad moment, and figuratively) it is cast in is sympathetic, but inexcusable.
@@eve6262_ I agree as well. They talk about how seductive she was and how hamilton couldnt help himself almost like he was preyed on or manipulated.
@@eve6262_ I can totally see your point, and I think its kinda a question of how aware the show itself is in that portrayal. If Hamilton is playing the victim here, does the show actively endorse him as such, or does it leave him in our eyes as a villain? I would argue that the show wanted to push toward a more self-aware stance, but muddied things with its choices. The blue lights for instance immediately feel like an attempt to garner sympathy for Hamilton, but the actual lyrics read like the most unbelievable attempt at playing the victim that I've ever seen. And when he confronts Mrs. Reynolds again, she's treated as the conniving villain, despite her earnest claims (that are somewhat substantiated by the show) that her husband is abusive and she had no part in the plot. The show needed to pick a lane, but just sorta said "Fuck it, here's two conflicting ideas. Who knows which we support?"
@@Pandafan16 I think the blue lights are just "day for night" effects to show time of day.
@@eve6262_ I guess it can be up to interpretation, and I see your viewpoint here. But as this song is from Alexander's point of view, perhaps alexander is *attempting* to put himself in a sympathetic light. But the fact that the entire ensemble is literally screaming "NO" at him the entire time, I find it hard to believe that Lin-Manuel truly finds this moment sympathetic. I think the blue light does convey the moment as a sad one, but not for Hamilton. It's sad for his family, the people he has just hurt the most.
I think it's ultimately a good thing the show muddles things a bit. If there was more explicit "adultery bad" language in this song, then I think it could have easily been too over-bearing. The audience is expected to inherently know that Hamilton is not a sympathetic character in this moment.
I do not understand one aspect of this critique. Hamilton does indeed carry itself much too seriously as a semi-accurate portrayal of history, I agree with this. But, bedsides that I see no issues with depicting the Schuylers and Hamilton to be anti-slavery throughout the play, as this is not gone back on. Because of this, besides the historical inaccuracy, there is no problem in my mind with being idealistic-- after all, I think we can all agree abolishing slavery is a good ideal, regardless of whether Hamilton held it true or not.
I find it rather perturbing that Quinton shows the sin of being historically inaccurate when the play carries itself differently, but then conflates that with the play genuinely being apologetic of racist actions. The play does no such thing, it simply ignores these elements from history. Whether that is bad in and of itself is an entirely different argument, but not one that Quinton conveys.
Idealistic stories should not be brought down and insulted in such a fashion simply because they are inaccurate to history. Hamilton, while he may have not deserved such an idealistic take on his and his colleagues' life, is dead. He cares not, and so the piece of media should be treated as a piece of media, nothing else (with the exception of removing any claim of historical accuracy to Hamilton's moral end.)
Idealism conveyed through the wrong idols is bad
LJK401 Why are the founding fathers of America bad idols? Undeniably, many of them had awful aspects to them (and, as was common for the time, many of them bigots and racists). However, many of these issues were more a product of the time they lived in rather than specific character defects they had-- as long as people recognize these flaws and understand them, I'd say it's okay to honor the values and ideals they held, ones which were undeniably powerful and modern.
Just to be clear, I am not condoning these defects because they were in the time they were nor am I saying that they are any better or more okay because if that. I am only saying that they were very common, and therefore more to be expected. Exceptions to the rule, in this case, make people look better-- and those who weren't, not much worse, in this time period.
oh, now it's incredibly fashionable to DISLIKE _Hamilton?_
i remember very clearly when it came out how it was absolutely *the* thing to get behind without fear of possible rebuke; it was heralded by many as the best, most progressive play ever made.
and, just like every cultural phenomenon ever, it's now come 'round that the hip have to _hate_ it.
or, if not _hate,_ at least remind people that they were always awake to its inherent "Problems."
I totally think that a work can be critized, I have zero knowledge of history in USA, I could tell it was made for entertaining value tho.
The thing is , many are trying really hard to "cancel" it for being problematic instead of critizing critizing it, like there is actual hate against the musical that wasn't there in its moment.
Well let’s not forget these are all slave owners
Good things Thomas Jefferson did:
-invented the swivel chair
Bad things Thomas Jefferson did:
-literally everything else
This was super well done! I'm glad that you commented on the "who tells your story" bit. Which is funny, because then even fans would make revisionist versions of the musical itself with those hatsune miku binder pics and headcanons etc, which says a lot about how people will tell the story OF a story even more tailored to their own experiences and heightening the aspects they can relate to/that resonate with them.
Burrn
Emileigh With a G another good thing the Declaration of Independence
@@theshenpartei The Declaration could've said literally anything and history still would've played out almost identically
Smeetheens that too
The Constitution was only written after they sent Jefferson off to Europe because he was such a crazy asshole
i’m a simple woman. i see the silhouette of the transgender bicon that is miku binder thomas jefferson, i click
The fanart reading physically hurt me.
Are we just gonna pretend like all of this wasn't already discussed 5 years ago when Hamilton came out? No, we're just gonna beat a dead horse some more? Ok.
Well the recent discussion is of course based on the fact that more people can see it now because of the Disney+ release, so it kinda does merit some talking to. Vox in particular has a good recent article/review looking at how interpretation of the show and the show's own role and meta-analysis has changed in the last five or so years with the evolving national discourse.
Poppy Raima Is english your second language or do you just type as many words as possible to sound smart? In any case, it doesn’t excuse him making a 16 minute video that feels like he took an old analysis article of Hamilton from 2015, read it out for an audio track, and put it on RUclips. I want him to make interesting analysis like he used to instead of blurting out well known information on Hamilton’s contradictories, as if he’s the only one talking about and pointing them out.
@@zacharyhaynes8969 no need to be an asshole
" The Spongebob musical is better than Hamilton in every conceivable way "
- Quinton
Where's that tweet about this being his most decisive video - even among fans
he's right
This but unironically
HES RIGHT
It's true, I saw it three times
See I never saw Hamilton as intending to accurately portray America or the founding fathers, rather as portraying the ideals America was supposedly founded on. It’s not about America as it is, but the American Dream. And it gives that dream to everyone by having such a diverse cast. The American myth is what it’s about, to me. I can’t say that was the intention, but it’s my reading of it.
That’s not to say it still shouldn’t be examined critically, of course. If people are coming away with a romanticized view of the founding fathers, that’s problematic. That should be examined. But I don’t necessarily think the fault of that falls solely on the play itself.
I also think you speculate a little too confidently on authorial intent here a few times. (The reasoning behind the Angelica plot or the way the Reynolds affair is framed for example).
"The reasoning behind the Angelica plot "
This is the one that bothers me most.... it isn't an invention by Miranda..... it is in Chernow's book. Something that takes seconds to look up, all the while complaining about how easy it is to see through the idea of the affair.
Maybe, but these guys were also real people who did real awful shit. It reminds me of that godawful P.T. Barnum movie, the Greatest Showman. Sure, it's fiction and well meaning, but it features an actual historical piece of shit as its principle hero. That is going to impact the cultural understanding those real figures.
@@dansmart3182 Eh, on one hand Angelica and Hamilton did have some deep connection with one another, but on the other hand it wasn't as dramatic as the musical portrayed, with Eliza stealing Hamilton right under Angelica's nose (Hamilton and Angelica were actually both already married when they first met).
But on the other hand (as much as I like him), it seems Quinton completely forgot the whole reason behind that HamiltonxAngelica subplot for the sake of making the joke about LMM shipping historical figures. The whole point of that subplot was to make the scene where Angelica confronts Hamilton in The Reynolds Pamphlet have FAR more emotional depth beyond just "you cheated on my sister". There's even a reprise of "Satisfied" within that song to make the reason for the subplot more obvious.
@@wanshimagnumdong8834 "on the other hand it wasn't as dramatic as the musical portrayed, with Eliza stealing Hamilton right under Angelica's nose (Hamilton and Angelica were actually both already married when they first met)."
~~I know this, but that wasn't his point. He said the "mind affair" was invented by Miranda so he could ship them.... not the specifics of when they met each other, or even how romantic of a situation that was. But that he made it up for the ship.....~~ Edit: I misheard him. The details he says are made up for his own personal ship, and then immediately says that that concept of a mind affair is laughable..... which the mind affair is still in Chernow's book. Which is still absolutely dumb to complain about, and pretty clearly done in bad faith.
Any "ideals" being assigned to the US are romantic, it's a Fascist empire founded on the genocide of the indigenous people and wealth from those deaths and slavery of Africans. It's absurd to try and defend any aspect of the US as positive.
Even the "umm actually" people who try to pretend the North as liberating slaves is complete bull, the north and south saw Africans as problems.
The north industrialized and the cities pulled Africans together into smaller areas, thus presenting a possible Revolutionary force.
The south had sparser slave populations, and they wanted to bring in more Africans for money.
So you have the north wanting to de-escalate the kidnapping of Africans (and send them back, as Lincoln would prefer it) to avoid rebellion, and the south wanting to expand it. Thus, conflict.
The US is one big crock of shit, and even the social advances made for marginalized groups are just the result of the needs to expand markets in the imperial core (black people and women will buy products), but all those products are just made by, surprise, slave labor of women and children Somewhere Else.
"It's funny to see historical figures of the past represented in ways they just weren't, and entirely to romanticize them in ways they don't deserve." This is the quote we should all be taking away from this! Great video!
As a fan of the show, I personally see the characters in it as fictional with very loose bases on history. I know that you have to take into consideration what a musical like this implies about normalizing and idolizing the actual founding fathers but when I go to listen to Hamilton or look at some fan art, like the ones you’ve shown, I don’t think of them as the same people that really existed. Because they aren’t. In taking out all of the problematic elements and adding in mostly made up personalities Lin Manuel has, to me, made a historical Fanfiction with a bunch of original characters sharing names with real people. A very good historical fanfiction at that.
Yeh I get ya, I love Hamilton, I lot, many lyrics were sung, many tears were shed. But yes, I know, it's not exactly accurate. I understand reasons for changing some stuff and don't really understand other reasons. Ultimately if I wasn't such a fanboy there's a lot I'd change like Hamilton's glamorisation, the fact that just about every character is racist but a lot of that is ignored, Angeliton, etc.
If only they could somehow acknowledge the inherent racism in a general sense. With, I don't know, the overall casting of the Founding Fathers, maybe…?
Václav Urbánek But they still glorify the characters themselves. It doesn’t matter who’s playing him, the fact that these slaveholders and racists are glorified as heroes is still a problem.
@@julyj6424 I agree completely with you here. If it's wrong to admire someone based on their good points when their bad points chock up to "not going against the grain of their society in order to align themselves to the values of my society", then we're going to have extremely slim pickings. Finding a western figure who is a good modern role model, is uncontroversial, and has the same views on topics like women's/civil/lgbq+ rights before the late 19th century is gonna be tough. And that's just to reach the current bare minimum levels of our modern values. Not including things like environmentalism, healthcare, and education which are pretty well agreed upon by a lot of people but are not universal (in America at least).
I get not wanting to forgive slaveowners (after all, I'm black) or to gloss over the fact that they were slaveowners, but it's another thing entirely to say that we shouldn't be able to depict them as anything but villains or villian-adjacent.
the difference is that Greatest Showman markets itself as a fictional narrative based off a real person while Hamilton tries to retell history with stunning performance minus unsavory and counterproductive details.
TGS = "what if this was how it happened?"
Vs
Hamilton = "this is how things kinda happened."
One is more a question than a statement.
@@Hurley815 There were some black people later in that era that were freed for some reason and owned slaves
It's not just a race thing, owning another human being is WRONG
No matter what color you are.
Speaking as a US History teacher, I do dread people using the musical as some kind of basis for knowledge of the founders; I appreciate that it dives into topics like the bank debate, the culture of dueling, the Reynolds affair, etc., that don't often get a lot of room to breathe during history class, but again, it can't serve as more than an introduction to these topics.
As a writer and a musical theater vet, though? I also see the show as both a pretty powerful narrative and one that, thematically, seems to work with the "mythological" versions of the founders for the very reason mentioned here, that of trying to create a platform from which traditionally marginalized people can read themselves into these consistently deified figures. That's not a small thing, to be fair, as some will want to see themselves in Hamilton as the loudmouthed bookworm, for example, without being told "that couldn't be you, because you're not white/male/etc."
Still, the show does come at America as a concept from a fundamentally optimistic point of view...a vision that, let's face it, is not exactly easy to hold onto nowadays, and hasn't been easy for many marginalized communities to hold at any point before now. More than not grappling with the founders' crappy views on Native Americans, or too quickly glossing over their failures on slavery (there's a third cabinet meeting track that deals with it, but it goes by quickly and I don't get why it doesn't have a spot in the show), that's going to be a major issue for it going forward.
lmao my teacher litterally played the whole thing in class awile back... in fairness it was more of a reward than anything, but still
The Founding Generation wasn't perfect, and no generation of Americans has been since. We are all human beings who have made mistakes. Each generation has made their steps towards progress, and stumbled along the way as well. But will each following generation we have the benefit of looking to the past and seeing where we made mistakes and look at how we can possibly improve. We shouldn't take for granted that we today take advantage of progress made by previous generations and that informs our moral values. Neither should we grow complacent on the idea that "society has been perfected", instead always look at ways to further pursue the ideal that all men and women are created equal and endowed with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I think it’s right to take an optimistic point of view. It’s better to renew faith in what America could and should be than to let people give up on it entirely and have nothing to look forward to.
i wasn't ready for the shoutout to the spongebob musical but it was much appreciated
I can suspend my disbelief just because the historical changes were made to improve the story, I just wish people could realize it’s not real
You can’t leave me hanging. I wanna know about how spongebob the musical is better
theres a couple videos ab it
Go watch “Wait in the Wings” video on Spongebob the Musical. It’s called “What Went RIGHT With Spongebob the Musical”.
@@epicjoyfulcreations4580 o yea i think thats the one i watched.
also.... u didnt hear this from me but theres a recording of the musical up on youtube called smthn like spoge kitchen musical
5:11
I think we found the perfect tagline for “Hamilton”...
“‘Hamilton’, the edgiest thing to be on Disney+ since...
A S S C A R P E T .”
As someone who isn't American and hadn't ever been taught American history, I went into Hamilton not knowing it was real. After watching it, I decided I wanted the full story and read Ron Chernow's novel. I can see some parts where Hamilton's personality was replicated but I also think it's important to note that the story in the musical is A. not 100% accurate and B. In a sense, it's almost told in Hamilton's POV, putting him in the best light possible. These were extraordinary men, but they weren't good people
3/5 compromise wasn’t unanimous. The southern colonies wanted slaves to count as a full person for representation purposes, while the northern colonies basically said you can’t count unfree people in congress. 3/5 ultimately benefited slave owners because by acquiring more human property in their state they increased the power they held in the house
I am not American and therefore did not grow up worshipping America's founders. In fact, I kind of grew up thinking Americans were a bunch of simps for spending so much effort fawning over rich slave holders who didn't like paying taxes.
So with all that out of the way, I still think Hamilton is an outstandingly brilliant piece of art, and I think judging it negatively on the basis of historical accuracy is the same kind of nitpicking that leads to 3 hour reviews of the Last Jedi that is just a list of perceived plot holes. I personally never thought it was that accurate, I doubt LMM particularly does either. He read the actual book. Things like an illicit relationship with his sister in law are primarily thrown in to enhance the story, not to be accurate to history. He clearly changes aspects of characters especially regarding things like slavery in order for us to not just be completely turned off by them.
I know for me at least, the musical made me want to learn more about the real people, and to see that they're not the same ones presented in the show itself. I wouldn't have known about Hamilton marrying into a slave owning family if not for the musical, for example. So I don't even think of it as being particularly harmful for people who actually do want to know more about the real people depicted.
Last Jedi was pathetically bad
@@fernandoleamshake7031 Nah
@@fernandoleamshake7031 it was like twilight. it was bad, but it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be.
@@disgsteng6755 isn't it the one where they invalidate every space battle that ever happened or ever will happen by blowing up a single ship to destroy every opposing ship? Cause if that's the one, yeah, it's the fucking worst thing to happen to star wars. Why bring a rebel fleet to take out the death star if a single ship can do it?
Fernando Leamshake We’re talking about Hamilton here, sir.
Is that...... Miku binder Thomas Jefferson?
I feel like the point of Hamilton to encourage people to learn more about the actual history and do their own research. To me, the musical is historical fiction. It’s not a documentary, therefore it is not bound to be 100% accurate
Exactly lol
It’s not a documentary it just tell the basics of Hamilton’s life, it’s not going to be 100% accurate
With the knowledge that Lin Manuel is a big Hamilton history buff, I guess it's a bit more disappointing that the play deviates from true history. But seeing as how every "Based on a True Story" film does the exact same thing, I never once assumed that Hamilton: The Play 100% accurately depicted Hamilton: the real life human being. You could apply a lot of the things said in this video to basically every biopic ever made. Editing historical events for the sake of a good story isn't a new concept
I love every part of this video except when you pronounced Hatsune Miku with a silent 'e'
Oh no, did he say "hot soon" or something? I wasn't even paying attention.
it's hatsoonay mikoo
As a Canadian with very little prior knowledge of what Hamilton would be, I wasn't overly fond of Alexander Hamilton.
The only character I actually liked was Eliza and even then that is when thinking uncritically about the historical context or accuracy.
@@goblinlibrary280 I don't think you're supposed to like almost everybody in the show. Cast white people in the roles and then you realize almost everybody is a slavery advocate, and those who aren't disappear or die
Maybe it's also people's fault for not seperating fiction from reality when it comes to a hip hop musical about the founding fathers?