The British Car Industry’s Worst Mistake - The Sad Story of The BMC 9X
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- Опубликовано: 27 ноя 2024
- In this video we cover British Leyland’s worst mistake and the biggest missed opportunity with the cancellation of this innovative small car British Leyland’s fate was sealed which through the turmoil of its life ended in its collapse.
This car the BMC 9X was the replacement to the Mini, a car years ahead of the competition. In this video we cover its story and how BL snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
We also cover the Metro, Ford’s Fiesta, Austin Allegro, BMC 1100 and 1300 to give the full picture of the chain of events leading to this colossal mistake.
Follow me on Instagram for more cool stuff: / tomisdrivingcars
Credits:
AROnline - ADO16 conversions, BMC 9X photos and general information
Driven to write - BMC 9X general information
If you'd like to read more my sources are linked below
BMC 9X ARonline - www.aronline.c...
BMC 9X Driven to Write - driventowrite....
I am aware, thanks to about 30 comments I mispronounced a name. I’ve corrected this in my Innocenti video.
Mispronouncing causes more comments. More comments increase the YT rank of the video.
It's often used deliberately by RUclipsrs. So it's not a bad thing for them.
@@tomdrives Yeah, pedants like me can’t help ourselves. Picking up on one word that’s standing out like a sore thumb means the content in general must be excellent.
Mechanics of the time thought that the Mini's engine bay was cramped.
Mechanics of today would long for the clearance and free space of the Mini.
A very truthful comment.
Agree served my apprenticeship on minis,mk1escorts,vivas etc still on the tools at aged 63 ,the cars now are a pain cambelts one of my hates for space.
@@1gerard47 Look under the bonnet of a 1960s Zephyr ,Zodiac or Cortina Mark One.
Heaven.
Difference is today's mechanics don't need to set the points or alter the timing and tuning every three weeks.
@@hackdaniels7253You didn't need to do any of those things every three weeks, and it was a simple job when they did need doing.
Good old days of human-sized cars, not ego-sized tanks.
. .
Do you know Jesus Christ can set you free from sins and save you from hell today
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There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today
Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell
Come to Jesus Christ today
Jesus Christ is only way to heaven
Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void
Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today
Romans 6.23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus
New cars are ugly and asinine
what makes things worse is people buying pick ups like the Mitsubishi barbarian, Toyota Hilux , Ford Ranger to use as personal transport, their not trades people..i would tax them off the road. Then people wonder why they have no money later on ..
@@vincentl.9469 I’ll never understand it, I grew up with & learned to drive in my dad’s F250 pick up, I thought it was corny and uncool to the extreme 🤷♂️
@@EyesWideOpen61 it's not just that . They take up so much space on driveways, side roads,- everywhere. Some of these people will tell you it makes them feel safer. Not safe for anyone else though!
The mini was outdated but still had its charm, that is why it still sold. The BMC 9x is an updated version of the mini, while people were looking for cars that looked like a car, with a bonnet and performace. So the 205 and the Fiesta came at the right time; not micro, but a decent car you could transport your grandma in. And with a boot to take her suitcase with you too. People did not want a micro-car with wheels from a wheelbarrow anymore. The time of the mini and the Honda N360 (along with other cars of that size) was history. The Suzuki GX was of that size, it hardly selled.
We had 2 Suzuki SC100'S.
bloody brilliant little cars but the spares cost a bomb.
Sold
correct...it looks amateurish
The Metro was a revolutionary car. Its split, non symmetrical rear seats have been adopted by many manufacturers and can still be found on many modern cars, today. I learned to drive in a Metro.
That monstrosity that they call a "Mini", today, does not deserve the name.
Yeah I had three Metro MGs in the 90s. Two were good. The last one I really wish I'd kept. The middle one a total rust bucket beneath the underseal. That was one of the main problems with Leyland and Austin Rover. They never sorted out that cheap metal they bought that rusted at the sight of rain. The designs were always good. The finished result not so much. And it really wouldn't have been much to get right.
The spit rear seat was copied from the coupe versions of the Imp.
The original Metro was however greater than the sum of it's A series parts
@@andrewwmacfadyen6958 - I don't remember it being on the Hillman Imp, but I will take your word for it. My Dad used to have a Husky. What a tank that thing was!
Funfact: BMWs Mini shares the same platform (and at its beginning also the engines) with the Dodge/Chrysler NEON.
@@halfrhovsquared the coupe body Imps. Hillman Imp California, Singer Chamois Coupe and Sunbeam Stilletto
I'm an American who lived in England in the 1980s. I had an Austin Rover $2,300s. What a fantastic car. What a miserable engine. I'd be glad to find out more about it on your other videos. When I bought the car they put a new engine in it. This did not last long. One day on a BT training course as I was driving back to the bed and breakfast the motor stops. I look the distributor is not turning. Someone in training lent me their RAC card, thankfully and I got the car towed home. It had wiped the bottom of the timing belt. I walked into the parts department handing them the belt he looked at me and said "you need a lot more than that mate". Oh how we laughed. Mine was a sea ridge in like a pearl paint job it was really a gorgeous car.
"$2,300s" that's an unusual model 😂 I guess you meant 2300 👍
@@deanosaur808 no sir it was a 2300 S I ought to know I owned it. The badge on the back said 2300 s. Look it up by number plate CUD 978Y.
The BMC 9X looks looks like a scaled down SIMCA 1100 which was the one of the very first hatchback.
This was very successful long before a POLO , GOLF or FIESTA was available.
The 9X looks like a copy of the Innocenti Mini that was produced and sold
in Italy with all BMC running gear .
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocenti_Mini
@@budbud2509 It also looks a lot like the K10 Micra a model that sold more than 50,000 models in the UK in just one year (1989)
@@budbud2509 spot on , bmc actually brought three over and thought of building it , the innocenti mini was a better design then the x9 , actually any bmc design handed to innocenti was improved on look at the original mini
...
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Come to Jesus Christ today
Jesus Christ is only way to heaven
Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void
Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus
@budbud2509 how can it be a copy of a car that was designed in 1969 🤷♀️
The boxy innocenti mini was introduced 5 years later 1974 😉
The prototype 9X certainly wasn't a looker. If it had gone to market then the styling would have needed improvement, but what a shame that it fell foul of the BLMC mismanagement. It could have been a trailblazer.
Yep! The Fiat that came along later was a much better looking car. The 9X looks far too utilitarian to sell.
The 9X had one major problem had it come to market: it was too small. Having seen it in person it's just the wrong size compared to the European cars that came later. If it had been slightly larger than the Metro was at launch it would have had a chance, but being smaller than a Mini would have been a mistake. Even the likes of the R5 and Fiesta struggled to convince some potential customers that they were big enough for a small family.
For Export to Japan just right!
"Even the likes of the R5 and Fiesta struggled to convince some potential customers that they were big enough for a small family."
My late father in law even considered the Escort too small. He owned every mark of Cortina but the Sierra was too wide to fit down his driveway (between two buildings). Ford's loss was Volvo's gain...
You think BL woukd have been able to build it at a price or quality to be competitive with the Japanese offer?
Thanks a lot, very interesting, and I learned quite a lot. I turned 18 in 1961 in Australia, and my first car was a VW Beetle. I had a heavy foot, and the VW was unbreakable. What about Austin/Morris? The Mini was reportedly fragile, the Morris 1000 antiquated, the A40 unappealing. I've owned 5 Minis as classic cars, and loved them. But what a disaster the British motor industry became, so many bad decisions and missed opportunities.
A very interesting video Tom - thanks! As for BL’s biggest mistake - I think it was allowing the Maxi to production with such odd ball styling, and that dreadful cable gear-change. Given that BL was banking on Maxi taking on the Cortina class, by hampering it with the mid section from the unpopular Landcrab did sales in an image conscious market no favours. A real shame - the engineering (dodgy gear linkage apart) and packaging were ahead of their time. But, BL didn’t learn from its best selling Issigonis car - the 1100/1300, which they handed to Pininfarina to style, and hampered themselves with a cutting edge car in engineering terms, which looked out of date at launch due to the 18-22 central section. The other mistake you mentioned in your video - Allegro and Princess should have been hatchbacks, with Maxi pensioned off.
To ny mind, the Ado16 should have been given a restyled front end and hatchback - like it's Australian and South African cousins and kept in production for another year or two. Allowing time for the Allegro to be fine tuned, also given a harchback and launch in 1975. It was a decent enough car. If then the whole range was hatched, it might well have had more clout.
I'm a fan of Gillian Bardsley's Issigonis book. Her interpretation of the situation was that Stokes was furious at Issigonis following the Maxi launch and he was sidelined from then on. There is a sketch of Issigonis's in the book laying out the complete 9x project right the way up to a large saloon of around 3 litres. I think he pulled out the stops to create a range sharing components and body panels to keep the costs as tight as possible. This seemed to be a Man who wanted to make anends for the "expense" of producing his previous designs. You can, looking at the sketch see the making of the Metro, Maestro and Montego some ten years later. Not that he had anything necessarily to do with that. The book also tells how the 9X engine design was actually bench tested against a K Series, which again goes to show the design quality of it.
Excellent again Tom! Epic shortsightedness… how to grab defeat from the jaws of victory… frustrating how close they came to launching a game changer.
Imagine how many minis would have been sold in Europe if it had been metric. The same goes for most of the rest.
Good video on the 9X Tom, I used to work for a guy (Ray Rajan RIP) who was one of the enginneers that worked on the 9X project with Issigonis and was very involved with the dx engine development as you say that engine was to have been a modular design based on a 250 cc cylinder architecture (though it did incoporate allowance for the cylinders to be "stretched" to 300 cc) but some of the other elements they were also looking at were pretty wild such as having built up crank/conrod assemblies (conrods would be one piece (like a 2 stroke) with plain bearing metal applied direct into the big end "eye", the cranks would comprise of machined pins (effectively very thick walled tubes) and crank throws/webs (sheared from plate or bar and machined for a heavy interference fit of the pins/conrod assembly) with the various parts loaded into an automatic alignment and assembly machine which when the crankshaft/conrod assembly was built would electron beam weld the pins to the throws/rods so the crank wouln't twist it was estimated with an automatic process that they would be so cheap to produce that if the bottom end of your engine "went" the assembly would be cheaper than having a crank "ground" and new shell bearings, they were proposing a similar idea for camshafts (a tube shaft with pressed on and beam welded cam lobes) an idea recently seen on modern cars such as Audi, there was plenty more ideas (like the starter/generator being built into the flywheel bellhousing) but they were the radical ones that come to mind.
A tale of British industry generally. Brilliant ideas crushed by dreadful management.
And extreme left wing unions.
@@peterhayward1848 If the managers had worked with the Unions instead of sticking to defunct mushroom management methods there would have been far less strife.
@@peterrat100 There was fault all round.
Don't forget the cars that likely would have been successful if the Unions had let them be built.
@@peterhayward1848Red Robbo's radical left wing demands included co-determination. Compulsory in Germany. VW is still going strong, and BL?
You have taught me a lot of things that I didn't know about BMC and British Leyland. I love the old clips as well.
Thank you, I’ve been taught by some of the best James Taylor’s books, Chris Cowen and his as well as Keith and the team over at AROnline.
As always, great stories, Tom. I am American, but always had a very positive attitude toward BL cars, and not just the traditional and rather novel "small" (by US standards) cars with bold and innovative features (Hydrogas, Quartic Steering wheel, etc.), but the Harris Mann cars like the TR7 and Rover SD1 3500 were models that really looked like nothing else on the road anywhere. Before Mercedes and BMW were "a dime a dozen", and rather uncommon (there was a neighbor with a /8 Benz which seemed an unconventional choice), British cars were more common and I walked by a TR7 on my street owned by someone working at a local office or shop. That freshness in styling was like something akin to someone seeing Scandanavian modern furniture for the first time after living among Victorian-style settees and whatnot. It was really beautiful, but just in a different way. Heck, I love the look of the Princess, Allegro, etc, but of course mismanagement and poor timing squandered that amazing design and engineering talent by an antagonized workforce, as well as poor marketing decisions. I only learned in the last few years that the Range Rover was destined for the USA long before it reached our shores in 1987....BL could not keep up with demand, so had to delay any USA sales. I have no idea if that even mattered except for having another product in showrooms. I say this because the "SUV" market was in its infancy rather than dominating the US market today. Jeep Cherokees and Chevy Blazers were rather common then, but not like today. Who knows what Range Rover sales would have been like in the USA if officially imported. I had to savor the cars in episodes of British TV shows like "The New Avengers", or models such as Corgi Juniors. I only saw the briefly-sold-in-North-America once here, in 1982 on a road in Canada. Still, the Corgi model I had resonated with me as being a modern, forward-thinking Britain rather than a retro-backwards nostalgic type look that some Jaguars began to take on after the XJ40.
🎯
The great British car industry suffered from the same problem time and time again, Hellishly poor management regardless of the company! Every where you looked there was in-house fighting for little empire builders who did not realize they were hurting the company rather than all having the same goals and working to that goal of producing profitable vehicles that the public wanted to buy! The 9X was the classic example, a brilliant design at a price that was profitable and what the public would love! once established they could then introduce the 10X as a more luxurious version with possibly electric windows etc.
BMC/Leyland were not the only ones Rootes too made the unfortunate decision to sell out to Chrysler who just did not understand the UK market or the people and made the wrong decision time and time again until they ran out of money and patience then sold to the PSA group in France!
The very sad thing is that style of management is still alive and kicking in our companies, the unions carried the can, and did their share of the damage, but at the heart was just poor incompetent management, union bully boy tactics were dealt with by among other things a secret ballot prior to strike action but the management never got their turn unfortunately.
Great great work as ever tom. You do an excellent job. Found this channel about 3 months ago. Really enjoying the content. Thankyou .
Thank you, glad you enjoy what I do :)
The BMC 9x looks very much like the innocenti mini from Italy in the 80s.
Extremely similar, it’s a shame those cars weren’t explored for release elsewhere
Innocenti Mini is of 1974. IMHO this 9x loos more like the 2 doors Peugeot 104.
@@pupettomontmartre i thought it looks like more a little Talbot to me,and to my opinion no where near this 9x would compare with 127 Fiat.
@@Giovanni60smandear If for the little Talbot you mean the 1982 Samba, that is just a rebadged and slightly modified 2 doors Peugeot 104.
Excellent presentation again , thank you
Watched from Old Harbour Jamaica 🇯🇲 and I remember Motor magazine covered this car and I too wondered why it was not produced. If the British was diligent with their car industry we in Jamaica would be buying British cars as we use to swear by them.
It’s always great comedy to hear about how BL could or should have got ahead with great ideas that they just shelved for various reasons. I know it’s easy to see where they failed, using hindsight, but they must have held their heads in their hands when all those euro-minis were launched and sold which used all the ideas and styling of the 9X.
I can’t imagine what it must’ve been like for those involved. I’ve spoken to many people who worked in BMC - MG Rover and it’s telling there are both positives and negatives of course.
Like all the other UK vehicle producers BMC didn't deal with basic issues, the 1275 A series had well known issues with head gasket failure and burnt exhaust valves. Marina front suspension was like something from the 1930's. Triumph 2000 and Rover 2000 were in direct competition.
The small Triumphs were pretty little rot boxes.
The Stag just needed the right engine to be a world beater
The J2, J4 and JU and EA vans were no match for the Transit although some ground was recovered with the Sherpa it was still years behind the Transit
@@andrewwmacfadyen6958 The Allegro had no hatchback, the Golf mk1 did. My first child arrived in 1975 and the underpowered mini850 was sold and a Golf was purchased.
Always sad to know of all these failed projects, ideas and plans.
Quality content as always.
Stating the obvious: "LOVE the MINI"
Hi Tom, watching your videos and recommendation i went to the British Motor Museum at Gaydon, What a brilliant place but also a place of sadness in what could have been for the British Motor Industry looking at various prototypes, If only they took the risk. Love your videos.
Glad to hear you want to the BMM, it’s an amazing place ran by people who really care about our motoring heritage, I need to go more often! And thanks for the feedback I appreciate you being here and watching.
@@tomdrives You're welcome
Issigonis' own bmc9x is at the Atwell Wilson museum in Wiltshire, the guys there are restoring it, quite a story how they came by it too.
Do tell ☺️
The museum look after some of Gaydon's cars when displays change etc, they have the ERA mini turbo from their collection, and one day when they were collecting another vehicle they spotted the 9x in a corner and got told it was being scrapped, most parts were with it except the bonnet which they then found as it had blown off and into a field nearby!
Admittedly I've not been there for a few years but the restoration was going well and were nearly at the roadworthy point.
Great museum by the way too.
@@davidcox2716 excellent story, thank you for sharing
Starting off my brother and I shared a little mini - in some respects, it was the coolest car I've ever owned.
All fascinating and to add my perspective... In 1982 the Sierra hatchback was shunned by the public- Ford dealers desperate to get Cortinas on their forecourts. Certainly by the mid 80s the B&Qs of the world were making big load spaces really useful but prior to the 1980s people didn't visit recycling centres or DIY stores -hard to believe today. It all seems obvious today but I think the reality is that cars that were not taken forward always seem like the saviour but I'm not convinced. It is worth noting the situation with Citroen. The C6 was one of Citroen's biggest flops (nice video on BigCar on this) - no one wanted their avant-garde offering: times had changed. We are about to have access to cheaper Chinese cars (think MG who are now everywhere) - will we see the German and French car industry hit like ours was? VW are already scaling back their electric car production. Great informative video though and endlessly interesting area.
I have seen similar looking quite modern east german Trabant protoypes from the 1960s and 70s!
Nice to see a RUclips video featuring a real person instead of absurd AI. Keep up the good work!
Hi new to this channel and was hooked by its content , me been driving since 1972 , the number of comments is amazing against the number of views I find ! Good luck with this , I’ll be watching the next for sure!
Ford's Fiesta only happened because of the FIAT 127. Ford bought 5 or more 127's to strip them down and get a handle on small FWD transverse engine configuration with an end on gearbox.
Management incompetence is still wrecking great British institutions including the NHS. It stems from the complacency that came from having blundered through WW11 and beaten Hitler. Meanwhile Germany and Japan were re-industrialising and creating superior products from new. I remember driving one of the first Datsun Cherrys and being amazed at how good it was.
A sad loss and another example as to why BL should never have been formed. Yet even after this groundbreaking car was abandoned, BL still had a wonderful little three door mini it put into production in Italy, a car based on the mini but was cheaper to build and was an hatchback, designed and built in Milan by innoccenti, the car stayed in production into the 90s. First launched in 1972 eight years before the metro and three years before the Fiesta.
I own my innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 for 38 years now. I love the iconic design of the mini which the 9x does not have. Butfor sure many mini drivers would have appreciated the more modern engine and continuous technical improvements and improvement in quality as better precautions against corrosion and better reliability. For more than 30 years BMC or BL did not solve the problem of engine failure when the distributor got in contact with rainwater.
I think they made the correct decision keeping the Mini and complimenting it with the Metro… which was also a very successful car in sale numbers.
I think their worst mistake was not to update and develop the BMC 1100/1300. They were good cars, superb ride and roadholding (compared to Escort/Viva etc.) and only let down by limitations and age of A Series engines and rust problem on bodywork. An overhead cam engine, designing water and rust traps out of body, and adding a hatchback could have been a winner. The Allegro was the answer to none of the problems.
At the same time the British Motorcycle industry was being decimated,and it was all written about at the time.Simply the Japanese could see the flaws in engineering that gave them a bad reputation for oil leaks,breaking down and short life span between rebuilds.And they simply went about producing what the public wanted.Britain also lost the truck industry,shipbuilding....
More good stuff Tom, and that Pininfarina 1800 makes me want to cry, it was damn fab. But hold on, the Auto-b-what-now? Baneechee? No Autobianchi is auto-bee-an-ki. For next time :)
Had friends who worked at BL in the late 70's. They would literally put a spanner in the line to sabotage production and sleep all night when on night shifts.
Spanner=wrench😂
That could have been a versatile design with vans and small estates like the Reliant Kitten.
Excellent video the cancellation of the 9X was just another step in their downfall, it's really surprising that this got canned but the Allegro got the go ahead
The Leyland management hated Issigonis. It's quite simple. No matter how brilliant an Issigonis project might be, it HAD to be sidelined. The Maxi was close to production (and so they could not simply cancel it) when Leyland took control of BMC, and they knew it was not fully ready (notably bad gear change and underpowered). It wasn't ready, and instead of fixing the obvious issues, they rushed it to the showrooms because they wanted Issigonis's car to fail. They succeeded.
i had a Morris Major series 2 i drove it for 13 years needed a lot of maintaining valve grinding etc but we loved it
Excellent documentary, I often wonder why BL didn’t push the 9X into production but we shouldn’t be suprised by their lack of investment mismanagement.
They canned some pretty decent designs, and were happy just to churn out the cars they already had with facelifts to keep them in the market.
The engine in the 9X I think was somewhere between the A series and the K series, great design, I just wonder if it would have had the cooling issues that the K series had?
Thanks again for a very interesting video.👍
The Stag V8 engine was considered a major disaster from the start!
I was in England during this time and still feel so grieved at how their entire motoring industry just wanted it to fail. We would not look at just the good features but the "Eh?" ones as well, usually saying "the designers went home at 5 o/c. Just look at how they just left the Princess at 90% brilliant. A 90% car is a failure. I adore the Stag, but again, HO refused to install their perfect Rover V8 using (well you know). The Herald was an excellent car but again cost cutting was rampant. But, the blame isn't just at the boffin level as factory staff were nasty and I am not talking wage/condition strikes; if friends wanted bits, a couple of notes passing in a pub would get any part needed. I had a friend who asking for a radio or tacho didn't just get 1 but a box load! Remember the Jaguar that had a bad knock, had a complete strip where a nut on a piece of string would tap in the B-column with a note "so you found me at last". Let us also remember incompetent politicians who interfered with bizarre demands like the Imp being made in 3 factories hundreds of miles apart, or the TR7 being assembled by untrainable monkeys in an area where everyone just wanted to live on the dole. America demanding crippling payment for War costs was also nasty. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I am only remembering facts.
Excellent as always, reminds me of an early pioneer hatchback, the simca 1100- which in itself would have made an interesting hot hatch with the 1501 engine tweeked somewhat...
I think I need to explore Simca a bit more and interesting bit of motoring history.
They already had a good OHC engine in the Maxi 1500 and 1700. The 1500 Allegro was a great car!
I had no knowledge of this before this video. What an utter shame this Golden opportunity was left for the competition to gain from.
Its a pity the UK never saw the likes of the autobianchi a112 or the innocenti mini 90...I had both and they were good.
9X front is stark to modern eyes. But overall the package idea was spot on
I’m afraid the 9x, innovative as it was, lacked the product planning to be right sized. The market was moving to superminis like the Fiat 127, Renault 5, Ford Fiesta, etc and Issigonis’ obsession with keeping the car as small as the original Mini sadly pushed the project in the wrong direction. The eventual Metro was the right size, but hampered by dated mechanicals. The money for 9x should have been spent on an up to date range of oversquare OHC motors - the E-series had been hampered by wanting to squeeze in a straight 6 transversely, resulting in an undersquare and therefore tall and not future proof configuration.
So yes, 9x is interesting, but probably wouldn’t have generated the necessary profits….
If only British Leyland had better management it may well still be around today
Great video Tom 👍👍🇦🇺
Interesting that you focused on the European hatchbacks released after the 9X stating that it would have lead the way, rather than looking at those already there like the Renault 4, or the Citroen Dyane. The Dyane was released the same year that Issigonis started the 9X project, and was incidentally intended to be a more refined, cheaper to manufacture, more conventional, hatchback car to replace the 2CV that directly competed with the mini.
A well-presented video.
Even viewing it from just news reports here in Australia, the self-destruction of BLMC was a tragedy. A slow-motion trainwreck that ruined the great names of the British motoring world.
It's very Sad to witness once Great Empires still in cancelation and decline.
My mother had an 1100 MG, I had an ordinary 1100 and then an allegro. All brilliant cars but the one thing they all died of prematurely - RUST + RUST AND MORE RUST. They all had beautiful engines. My mother's first second hand A30 lasted longer than all three of them!
The original Fiat 127 actually started out with a boot, a hatch was added a year later as they realised this was the future of small cars.
Very informative video Tom. I really enjoy your output, although it makes me sad to think what BL could have become with the right Management.
This is a great vid but fails to mention Issigonis's own 9X had a torque instead of a gearbox which the Daily Mail in 1969 hailed as the next big thing but of course you need more than a torque converter to power a small car. You can see this actual car in Calne at the Atwell Wilson car museum but struggled to maintain speed on hills. If you want to see what a 9X would have been like to drive buy a Mk 1 Polo - it's a straight copy. Whenever I see a Polo I often say "Look - a VW 9X!"
Great stuff ( again ) thank you. The choice of disasters, could take forever. I think the biggest mistake was the K series engine. Such promise, but let down everyone. The only reliable thing about it, was the regularity of it overheating. So many otherwise sound motors , scrapped, as they were uneconomical to repair. This made even the remaining loyal diehards, myself included, give up. I could weep for my beautiful unmarked, regal looking, champagne 75, wheeled awau for scrap. So many knowing, pitying looks thrown my way. They did know better. I knew then, there was no coming back. Death by gasket.
Even the Metro missed the mark. At the launch the competition were planning their next generation of hatchbacks half a size bigger.
Shame about the 9x. By the time we got to the 80s, BL simply couldn't screw a decent car together.
I chose a Montego as a company car in 1986. Not my best purchase decision. I covered 80 000 miles over two years. I replaced it with a Vauxhall Cavalier and heaved an enormous sigh of relief. The Montego had a ticking speedo which was very irritating. After 2 failed repair attempts, the main dealer replaced it and the car had already covered 23 000 miles. The rear window leaked in heavy rain, an issue the dealers never managed to fix. By the time it was 18 months old, the electronic carburettor (mechanical fuel injection would have been better) became a problem. Despite driving well and being a comfortable and economical vehicle, it was utterly let down by useless quality control and dealer support. If I had bought it with my own money I'd have been really knobbed-off.
I was working in the motor industry 1969-73 for a component manufacturer & had interaction with various companies. The failure was caused by incompetent management,aggressive unions,government interference & complacency & not just at BL. BL was fraught with internal wars between management groups seeking dominance & in consequence lack of cooperation beteen various constituents,thus foiling meaningful outcomes. Donald Stokes although having done an engineering apprenticeship at Leyland eventually found his metier in marketing (an anomaly to me as an engineer knowing the antipathy between engineering & marketing) & was in bed with the Labour government who loved centralisation & control,scene set for disaster.
I lived and worked in the motor trade all through these eras. A very impressive video with great research effort and presentation .👌🙏 ⭐️
Great video 👍 looks like pinniferinor sold the design to Citroen creating the GSA, issigoness knew he needed to replace the aging mini 😊
Thank you, and yes it proves Issigonis’ genius once again
That 154kg weight stated for the original Mini's A series engine sounded way too much, so I just googled it. Apparently that little unit really was that heavy, and takes 3 people to life one safely !!! I had no idea. Back in my youth I once fitted a replacement engine into my 1050 Fiat 127 on my own, without a hoist. It was heavy (I'd guess about 50 or 60kg), but I managed it.
No wonder the Hayabusa swap minis are so ballistically quick. Not only are they getting 180bhp, but they're losing the weight equivalent of a fat passenger from the front of the car ! :D
I think the Hayabusa engine weighs around 95kg
An excellent video. Thank you. What a shame BL made so many mistakes. I live in Australia and am a massive BMC and Leyland fan. My first car was a Morris Mini Deluxe 1966. I still have it and a 1977 Leyland Mini Van and a 1965 MG 1100. I’ve owned dozens of minis and BMC cars, I just love them. My mum had a Mk3 Cortina a lime green XLE with a tan vinyl roof with a 4.1 litre six cylinder engine from the Ford Falcon. It went like a rocket. Hubnut did some videos years ago on some Australian cars. I think you do a better job and are more investigating and could probably do a good series on Australian BMC/Leyland vehicles. They made many refinements to British cars and also produced their own models. Everyone just knows the P76. There’s more than that. Even the the Mini and 1100. They were adapted to Australian conditions and the changes were massive. My twin brother had a Rover 3500 V8, it was a nice car but it had its issues. They pretty popular here. We had JRA Jaguar Rover Australia after Leyland. Minis and Mokes were some of the last BL cars made here, although they did assemble Land Rovers and even Peugeot cars here too. I worked for an MG spare parts business in the nineties and remember BL Rover heritage coming to Australia to try and take control of the MG name as they were about to introduce the MGF, and they wanted my boss to pay a licensing fee to use the MG name. My boss basically told him to fuck off as Leyland or Rover had not represented anything in Australia for decades and he was keeping face and these vehicles on the road. I’m not sure how it all ended up, but the business is still going. It’s still amazing how many people still love BMC/Leyland/Rover cars. I still do. And in Australia we have no car manufacturing anymore I have Holden Commodore SV6 and Ford Falcon XR6 they the most comfortable cars for driving long distances as we do here in Australia. It’s a shame it’s all gone, like Rover. Thanks for your videos. I wish I could send you pictures of my cars. Or if you ever came to Australia, you always have a place to stay. Keep up the good work. 🇦🇺👍👍
Innovation and engineering nous was never the problem in the UK. We could have made the Golf GTI, Ford Escort XR3I or even the Renault Espace, and BL and the Unions would STILL have found a way to make them fail....
Errr.. no. It was poor decision making, lack of investment, and poor management, not the unions. I expect you believe privatisation of water, electricity and gas has been a huge success?
Err yes, the unions stuffed them.know your history...
In Australia their biggest mistake was the P76.
Had never heard of it, thanks for the video Tom
The 9X DID see the light of day! Only not in the UK.
They were running about as the Mini Innocenti in Italy, France and corsica/sardiinia. As late as the late 90's there were plenty of them in good condition that i saw and drove. The only difference was the very Fiat style front grille.
Oddly enough, when they died off they tended to be replaced by Axiam and other cycle cars, or a citroen ax as the alternative top of the range vehicle.
I dont know who made the innocenti under licence (one of the fiat group, or eastern european comunist countries? The awful Yugo certainly was a frankennstien of innocenti cues)
The problem with the Mini was that the engine oil was shared with the gearbox. Engine oil was too thin for a gearbox which suffered from selector fork wear. I know this to me cost having had to strip gearboxes on both my 850 and long stroke Cooper. That meant engine out for both cars. But, having stripped almost every part from a MIni, I do not think that they are particularly difficult to work on. Technically, the 9X was mechanically excellent but is looks are a dog's dinner.
British Motor industry.
WHAT IF!!!
Great content as always thank you (:
Thanks Darren :)
Nice one mate, love these. Honda robbed this shape with their little e. New subscriber ✌🏻
Thanks Jon, appreciate it!
The british leyland.... always snatching defeat from the jaws of victory......
At best an improved development of the 9X should have been applied on an earlier ADO88/LC8-type supermini capable of underpinning a direct SWB Mini replacement. The 9X’s gearbox was viewed as inferior when compared to the Mini, Clubman and Autobianchi A112 (see Issigonis bio by Gillian Bardsley), its engine was also a blind-alley the company could ill-afford against an earlier A+ or A-OHC. The 9X was basically created from the remains of the Innocenti-initiated Mini-Mini later 750 project that eventually became Innocenti Mini with Bertone styling (and a rejected Michelotti proposal).
I’ll give the bio a read, thanks for that one.
@@tomdrives Would also get the one by Jonathan Wood as well. If able to read or translate Italian, would look to get LE AUTO DELLA INNOCENTI by
Colombo Sandro for a more complete picture on the 750 even though it doesn’t touch on Issigonis’s involvement.
The mechanics then would go completely bonkers today if they thought the mini was cramped
Back in 1965 they built a fabulous hatchback. The MGB GT. I thought it was a brilliant idea at the time.
British leyland's biggest mistake was forming in the first place, purchasing rover was somewhat of the first problem they created for themselves as rover directly competed with their own golden goose from the time: triumph, but the company was still healthy and flush with money. Taking over BMH was a damning move though, plummeting their financial health, stretching their management capacities and all that while being run by someone who only saw their own dream of taking on the US big three without acknowledging the risks that came with this.
Hmm. Strange that the video omits any mention of the Renault 4. The R4, iirc, used rear torsion bars - imo far superior to a beam axle.
As for engine weight ... the Reliant Regal had an all-aluminium engine in 1962. (I owned a couple of the later examples - a '72 & a '73. with the 700cc engine). The "Delboy" van was also available with rear side windows and a folding rear seat - I owned one for a bit! A very practical little car, offering many of the advantages of a small hatchback - MUCH lighter than even a Mini, too.
I leant to drive in a 1965 Wolseley Hornet Mk II, so I have a bit of "Mini" experience, too - that car handled well because the seats were so low it felt like sitting on the floor! Fittingly enough, my mother replaced that 1965 Hornet (fancy Mini) with a 1986 Ford Fiesta, which does rather reinforce the point you made in the video!
Having said that, the various car designs near the start of the video (that BMC/BLMC never put into production), reminded me somewhat of the styling of some 1980's Citroens.
So I guess "idea borrowing" goes both ways.
....
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Come to Jesus Christ today
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John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
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Hebrews 11:6
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Great video! A couple of comments. The Mini was not "one of the greatest small cars the world has ever known". It was, and still is, simply the greatest car the world has ever known. I think it was the right decision not to produce the 9X just because it was too small. All those European superminis were bigger than the Mini and that's what the market wanted at that time. But yes it was an innovative car, and much as I love Moulton suspensions, I think it's right that the cost was not really justified.
Yet it never made a profit and was quickly outclassed and outsold by competitors.
@@williamegler8771 Well he said in the video that it did make a small profit once they got rid of the hydrolastic.
The Mini had innovative engineering solutions,but numerous flaws.The 2CV ,was innovative,and more practical,designed pre WW2 .
The original Mini was a marvel of packaging, handling and design. But there is stiff competition for the title of "best".
2CV, ID/DS, 11B (all from Citroën). Then R4L, Panhard Dyna,
I hesitate to say it, but I think I also put ADO16 above the Mini.
The original Mini was a wonder, but there have been others as good (or maybe even gooderer).
Wrong. The greatest small car the world has ever seen, driven, raced, looked at, admired, vaccumed, washed, polished, photographed, is the Fiat 850 Sports Coupe.
In my opinion they should have gone for the Bertone design and the car that was actually produced in Italy by Innocenti : the Innocenti Mini 90 series, it had the much needed hatch and was an alternative for the very populat Italian made Autobianchi A112 model. They could have invested moneyin the powerhouse of the new Mini and go on from there. Let's face it, the Innocenti Mini 90 was a real looker !
Hi Tom , absolutely I had one of those a vanden plas model . Regards mark
Firstly might I say I love your channel excellent work young Fellah! I'm impressed that a young bloke like yourself is taking on this project! My guess is that you weren't born when all this was going down!? Great work mate, be proud! Anyway my opinion is that BL's biggest mistake was....Excisting in the first place!! Not the cars but the company! A shocking juggernaut of a company! To me as a bit of an old conspiracy theorist 🤣 I have to say it looks like the whole thing was set up to bring down the great British motor industry!?, I reckon it was sabotage from Management all the way to unions (and this comes from a life long staunch union man!) I can not believe these people (not the workers they were got at!) made such incredible mistakes! by pure accident! It goes way beyond mere incompetence!!! 🤬 I now live in Australia but originally from UK, I was there when all this crap was going down! It's absolutely heartbreaking as I am a British car enthusiast, my favourite marques being Jaguar and Rover 😭😭 Ive owned both and own an XJ8 (built under Ford stewardship) but so sad to see what BL(zabub 🤣) did to those great marques! Along with Austin Morris Wolseley Riley! BL along with the Rootes group destroyed a once Great world leading industry so Sad so Sad! BTW I started my working life as an apprentice motor mechanic with a Ford dealer in Reading in 1967, later after finishing my apprenticeship I went to sea in the again once great British Merchant Navy as a marine engineer, yet another great British industry lost along with ship building! Keep up the good work Mate 👍🇳🇿
If the Morris grilled Mini's were re-made again today, just as they were, therè would be a queue for them from Longbridge to Japan.!
BMC/Leyland also shot themselves in the foot by trying and succeeding in making a16hp tractor ,however they finally put it on the market 5years after farmers realised Massey Ferguson,Fordson,and David Brown among others could do a better job with their 30/40 hp tractors.
Then in Australia we had the Austin 1800 utility or “pick up”that went the way of all BLMC vehicles as well.😢
The poor relationship between the Leyland and BMC teams may have been the biggest problem. The merger ti form BLMC was arranged by the British Government, and "sold" to Leyland as an opportunity to create a merged firm with global scale. In fact, BMC had been on the point of going bust. Had BMC been allowed to fail, Leyland could have bought its assets debt-free from the Official Receiver and run it according to Leyland management principles; as it was, they acquired a badly-run company with a mountain of debt, run by senior managers with ill-founded self confidence.
It followed that the Leyland team treated anything emerging from BMC with a lot of suspicion. Given capital shortage because of the BMC debt mountain and the fact that the Mini was still selling and marginally profitable, it was not surprising that the Leyland folks ledt the 9X project to one side.
The Autobianchi A112 was production ready early 1969 and sold at the end of 1969. So I think Fiat was a tad earlier. I also disagree on your assumption that this BMC 9X could have saved BMC or British Leyland. The money is not earned with small cars, if any money is made on them at all. Mostly they are (were) there to lure young customers to the brand, hoping they would buy bigger cars later in life from that same brand.
Very interesting, didn’t know this prototype existed! The mini being the only British car I ever owned, it was great but of course I constantly wished it was updated to at least err...1970s features😅. I assumed they just failed to ever develop a replacement- clearly I was wrong! Here it is😳..what a total failure of short-sighted & stupid management to not get at least a version of this into production 😠
The front has great similarities with the Simca 1100.
Love your videos mate! With that amazing and oh-so-70s hair you would look great on a Rover P6... you didn't know you needed one, right?!🤣
I was convinced you had a rabbit on the roof of that SD1 at 1:17, then I looked closer !
I’ve forgotten what that even was!
Love your blue 'Tina Mk3. After 50 years and 5 months of driving, never heard of this little car. BMC would have just lost more money making rot boxes (in fareness nearly all cars then were rot boxes!) The mini was the best thing they did...the rest were mostly boring FWD and engined cars.
It's as if Fiat & VW had insight into the 9x project. Considering how similar they looked & in layout, especially the Polo, albeit a bit bigger. And later the Fiesta.
I understand the anger of the British that they once had a very large car industry just behind the American one, and now it is not in the top ten. But what are we Poles supposed to say? In the UK you still have Jaguar, Land Rover, Mini, Bentley, and Toyota and Nissan made car in UK. And we don't even have that in Poland. There is no Polish car brand. The Czech Republic, smaller than us, has a Skoda and even Romania has a Dacia.
Fiat produces 500s in Poland and Ducato transporters
@@Schlipperschlopper Fiat 500 and Fiat Ducato. Such a great family car. Fiat 500 A great car with a large trunk in which a family of 5 with a dog can travel comfortably.
@@michalkuc1719 I have heard that Tesla moght build a factory in Poland when Ukraine war is over
@@Schlipperschlopper April 1st was 2 months ago.
What Polish car brands existed before?
Probably the biggest mistake was when BMC/BMH first came about. The big companies shouldn't have amalgamated. All the different brands competing against themselves with the same cars, underneath one roof, madness.
A few things the Fiat 128 came out in 1968/69 and set the layout for all the front wheel drive cars we have today I worked on them new and they were a serious car cam belt/ gearbox on the end unequal drive shafts ,I see where they were going but the Italians were already there!
I do have a soft spot for minis but they were hideous to work on rotted and so on ,the 1100 was a far superior car the GT
especially . Fiat were generally far ahead in the world in terms of engineering,dont get me wrong I think BL were no worse than any other manufacturer at the time and all I have to do is to drive my series 1 XJ6 to remind my self how brilliant they could be
Even now it’s amazing .cracking this thing you’ve got going here Tom 👍
Thanks I appreciate the comment and feedback but it’s important to note although the 128 was released before the 9X was even a prototype I’m not referring to the FF layout, it’s about the whole package the 128 wasn’t a hatchback.
The 128 although an innovative family car wasn’t a super mini a C segment rather the a B segment car.
@@tomdrives point taken but the drive configuration had already been conceived and they did a 2 door estate with a hatch back admittedly it wasn’t a small as a mini etc,but look at the 600 multipla ,I am a die hard BL fan though , all the best.
How many of those 1100s survive today? Not many 😅 at least 75,000 classic minis survive in the UK today, and tens of thousands more around the world 🥳
Alexandros Arnoldos Konstantinos was in Greek, Alexander Arnold Constantine was in English the first name of the Isigonis. His father was Greek from Smyrna and his mother from Bavaria (Germany).