This demo is a clever way if promoting the purchase or all their of subwoofer models. The center chanel is the most important speaker in the home theatre but unfortunately they have to placed horizontally except in the rear cases when the setup allows three identical towers to be placed behind a perforated screen, hence all horizontally oriented centre channel speakers are compromises. Idealy all the speakers should be full range ,but that is rearly possible.So, strategically adding appropriate subs to all channels is a great idea.Dubbing the prosess as 3D is a nice touch.Let marketing prevail.
This instructional video presentation completely sold me Terry. I already have four subs in my Home Theater system, and large full range towers for the front mains. Never thought to add a smaller sub on hi pass to my center, rears, and over head. I will definitely add a sub on hi pass to my center channel. Thanks Terry, you and REL ready delivered on this one.
Rel talks about importance of full range speaker like it’s 2000. Now all AVR can offload frequencies under crossover to lfe connected subwoofer. Considering potential timing issue, sun away from speakers - this would create more issues than help. Nice idea to sell more subs but if you install 4 subs in your room and use something like Dirac with base management the effect I would suspect to be much better. In AVRs where you don’t have separate sub connections you might consider this.
Cheers Terry mate for another great video! Even though Rel recommends having your stereo subwoofers positioned behind your stereos I chose to have mine positioned behind my sweet spot (basically out of veiw) and the best thing about rel subwoofers and there seamless integration is that when I get guests over and I stick some music on... the heads turn to my little bookshelve speakers and I know what they're thinking... 'how the hell do those small speakers sound so huge' then I think to myself oh yeah that's how its done 😁 click on the red dragon to view / listen Big shout out to the support structure at Rel especially Ben and his Enthusiasm in wanting to help 👍👍👍
Kind of but not quite because you can only do that in AV products for stereo not for multi channel - its a different approach to the traditional sat sub way of setting up
I think the set up not as easy as the video shows. 1. I think you need to time align the sub with the speakers. Especially if the sub location far away from the speakers. 2. If using hi pass level for example for the front speakers. The rel sub is sealed and how about if the front speakers is ported? because front speakers not using any hi pass filter, on front speakers tuning port the phase will be reverse and it will messed up the subwoofer freq res. 3. Again using 2 subs (not eq distant)for LFE no time alignment, I am sure the freq res is messed up. 4. I think in my opinion add dedicated sub for center channel makes more reasonable as center channel is most active speaker in home theater. But even that for dedicated center channel subs, I like to use at least 2 subs, time align and using LPF filter for the sub and HPF for the center speaker to prevent phase shift on center channel tuning port (for ported center channel)
Great video Terry. Love REL. I used to sell alot of their product and I still enjoy my Strata 5 with a Bass Line cable every day. Fantastic to see the team in action. Fantastic content
I always look forward to REL videos. Question: When set to large speakers, this gives the sub information to play, but isn't this also send LF information to speakers that often (if not virtually always) can't handle those frequencies?? Thanks, again 👏👏👏
That is a potential downside or compromise of it yes, so I think having the subs near the speakers as much as poss makes sense - for higher bass freq more so than lower
I notice towers are used for surrounds. Would that work better than bookshelves? I guess running towers Full Band works better? Also your thoughts on using towers for centre channel ?
when your mains have very good (25-30hz) bass, a Rel sub (high level) does almost nothing extra. It can actually hurt the sound quality ... I've got the measurements and listening tests to prove it 😮 and that also goes for the more expensive S series which I have 😮
What about above 30hz which is more important anyway. You can use the REL to improve and manage the bass rate and level much higher than where the speaker rolls off. That is how I think you use subwoofers best anyway and speakers rarely output enough bass when they are not boundary loaded
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I'm having "bad" luck that my mains are already quite powerful in the 30-80hz bass region. The subs are making bass more muddy instead of more powerful. Fase doesn't help either. Oh well, going to think up a situation where the subs are a bonus again ;-) My mind needs a reset 🙂 which often helps.
@@ericshutter5305 maybe it’s because they are adding too much in certain regions that are already hot and that is causing ringing. Maybe consider advanced room correction like Dirac live where you can measure and see this and be able to manage the bass to be much better
A bit confused, are we using 3 or 4 subs in the setup? 1 each for L/R, Centre, Surrounds, LFE? Am I correct ? Do you also recommend to apply audyssey or any other software?
Am trying to understand if you use stereo and home theatre on the same system what happens to the sub out on the .1 when using 2 channel does the sub still work or does it just use the subs attached to the front towers ?
The real comparison would be doing the REL 3D with DIRAC compared to a 80hz crossover regular setup with subs in same position. REL 3D is tempting but I would be worried with room modes and output pr full range speakee.
Whatever way I setup any system I would use Dirac but I think that is a little different :) The whole purpose of the rel 3d is exactly what you said the fact the speakers won't be full range enough on their own. There are other factors to consider like dynamic capability and amplifier power too. Always lots of factors and there are more than one way to skin a cat
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Absolutely. I own dual S212/sx's and currently not using them high level. I am tempted by the REL 3D concept and could implement it with my total of 4 subs - 1 each corner basicly. As I am considering a Trinnov SSP as my winter upgrade I suppose I would use that to route bass and do fullrange + LFE and try out what is best. In fact with a Trinnov one could maybe do a much easier A/B test. I would add that when using the REL 3D theater setup a large bass output in a surround speaker that only has maybe a smaller sub would struggle as compared to a traditional 80hz setup where all the subs would help out + control room modes. At any rate would enjoy testing this out more.
@@mrlinde6518 personally I think going a hybrid route for setup would bring the best results I need to have to a play with this at some time to try and work it out but there are benefits to both setup routes so to me it's makes sense to try and get all of them. But as I say I havent tried this yet to know what fruit it might bare
Hi Terry, Great Video and very interesting channel I am planning to setup a 3D subwoofer set up with 4 REL subs as - 1. 1 REL T/7x for Center channel - using High Level Input only 2. 1 REL T/7x for dedicated Rear surrounds - using High Level Input and LFE (one .1 sub out from AVR) 3. 2 REL T/9xs, one for Left and one for Right Mains - using High Level Input and LFE (other .1 sub out from AVR using a Y splitter to 2 subs). These speakers and subs (without LFE) will also be used for 2 channel listening. Do you see any issues with this 4 sub setup? Are the REL models I chose apt for this setup? Question on sub for surrounds. I am planning to do a 7.2.4 setup. How can I connect all my surround channels (4 surrounds and/or 4 atmos) to the high level input of the surround sub? Appreciate your help. Thank You.
I bought a REL Strata Sub when it first came out, still have it, and it still works. Which is more than I can say for the Jamo sub that came with the D500 THX Select package I bought. :(
@Pursuit Perfect System, now that you have experienced a REL 3D Subwoofer scenario, what are your thoughts concerning Dirac Live? Even more so, Dirac Live with Bass Control? I ask because my upgrade path includes upgrading my subs and processor. I am deciding between the Emotiva RMC-1 (Bass Control Upgrade not possible)and the Arcam AV40 (Bass Control Upgrade possible). Because of how unique REL subs are, is the Bass Control Upgrade worth the cost? Thank you in advance for the response.
I feel the same about Dirac, I still see it as essential because room acoustics are always bad. Bass Control wont be of benefit to a REL 3D system. Bass Control is a system to help better integrate speakers with subwoofers that are connected via lfe and where there is a crossover from the speakers to the subwoofers. The REL 3D system doesnt work like that, it can and will still benefit from Dirac but not in the same way
Great video Terry. I have a question: I’m currently using a Carbon Special, connected to my center channel via the high-level connection. The improvement is phenomenal! For my rear channels, do you think I should get another Carbon Special? Do the rear channels get enough signals for a Carbon Special, or do you think I could just get a S/510? I prefer my system to have a bit more kit than average; so, do you think the Carbon Special is a better option for my rear channels? Thank you, Reggie
Hi Terry, I have two questions for you. I know that the equipment and the processing options were completely different to your own set up choice but do you prefer your 4 Rel Predators or this 3D subwoofer sound you’ve experienced. And my other question is that if your av receiver only has xlr connectors how would one connect via high level connection.
The predators dont have a high level connection - they are not designed for that - REL designed them for the LFE channel only - I used them in a more usual subwoofer fashion speakers to small crossing over to 80hz and then managing the bass in the processor and with DSP. I think some of the subs have balanced inputs but you will have to look into that as I dont know off the top of my head which is which
@@PursuitPerfectSystem One more question. While you was at Rel factory did you get a chance to listen to the Rel No 25. And if so what was it like. I think many of your viewers will be also curious about what your answer to this question will be 🙂. Many thanks.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I own two RELs, their message to public: buy more and neutric is blue pill for everything. It is usual nice looking subs nothing more, with their pros and cons. They play badly on infra frequencies, rattling on low, jumping on the floor, expensive. Pros: nice looking and fast.
I setup REL's a lot and I haven't experienced that - I don't think they claim their subwoofers to be huge output at deep frequencies - they claim they are fast and they are fast
@@PursuitPerfectSystem unfortunately they don’t have infrasonic filters, their lfe regulator useles too. Whatever comes to them they trying to play. So my solution to keep them was: add another one, no useles neutric, dsp in front, processing with room measuremements. Only after that they start playing. So what they claim is marketing not more, apart of fastness. But there is lot of cons.
Wow, you all need to do some research on Bass management... better still do the experimentations for yourselfs... almost guaranteed you will not end up with a setup such as this. This setup simply sells more subwoofers (which sadly to say, by looking at quite a few of the comments, it's working).
Thats being very cynical John - there are 4 subwoofers in this system, thats no different to a lot of home cinemas so its the same amount of subwoofers - just setup differently. I am a professional Dirac calibrator so I understand bass management as well as anyone and I do talk about this in the review section of the video.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem No, actually it isn't. It is simply years and years of experience that tell me that, although you no doubt heard some improvements, that clearly one could achieve even better results from other implementations of Bass management then the one being suggested here... this I have no doubt. So I stand by my original comment.
@@johndaddabbo9383 as I said John I also have years of experience and setup home cinemas for people as part of my job. I agree bass management and dsp adds or allows a level of control you wont get without it that is not in question but that doesn't take away a potential advantage of implementing some of this too I think you are just missing that bit.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem @Pursuit Perfect System No, I am not at all missing that for my first comment specifically states "almost guaranteed" that a better contrived setup can used. And in my 2nd comment I state "improvements were no doubt heard" however no doubt one can do even better (and with less, i.e. one less sub even). So in a nutshell, I have simply been suggesting that one can do better (and I stick by my that notion). I will add that I am not (and I did not) state that anything that you had stated was incorrect, but simply one can do even better than this approach IMO ;)
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Terry love all your videos. Your content shows that you are an experienced professional working in the audio industry. However this video looks and feels like a promotional video for REL. If it is a promo video and you gained some benefit from it then more power to you.....but you need to let your viewers know.
Richard Lord sold me a REL Strata 1 !! He persuaded me to get one at the Bristol HIFI Show
I still have it....and it still works beautifully
Been contemplating connecting a REL to my centre speaker. Reckon that video sealed it!
What a crazy system! I never thought about this possibility for cinema and thinking about it makes perfect sense.
Thank you for the excellent review.
Ah so you took a trip down to my hometown Terry. REL subs are something special and I'll be getting a couple for my system one day.
This demo is a clever way if promoting the purchase or all their of subwoofer models. The center chanel is the most important speaker in the home theatre but unfortunately they have to placed horizontally except in the rear cases when the setup allows three identical towers to be placed behind a perforated screen, hence all horizontally oriented centre channel speakers are compromises. Idealy all the speakers should be full range ,but that is rearly possible.So, strategically adding appropriate subs to all channels is a great idea.Dubbing the prosess as 3D is a nice touch.Let marketing prevail.
This instructional video presentation completely sold me Terry.
I already have four subs in my Home Theater system, and large full range towers for the front mains. Never thought to add a smaller sub on hi pass to my center, rears, and over head. I will definitely add a sub on hi pass to my center channel. Thanks Terry, you and REL ready delivered on this one.
so what were the results?
Comment of the video Terry "ass kickery" loved that one a lot 🤣🤣🤣
Best video yet..informative and British to boot
Heard this type of hookup before..... Its astonishing... Superb speed and impact..... Latency problems just don't exist.
You've been busy Terry! No rest for the wicked eh? Great to see this unique content.
Thanks for noticing !!
@@PursuitPerfectSystem enough praise. More content now. 🤣🤣
Love my Carbon special, will soon buy another.
Rel talks about importance of full range speaker like it’s 2000. Now all AVR can offload frequencies under crossover to lfe connected subwoofer. Considering potential timing issue, sun away from speakers - this would create more issues than help. Nice idea to sell more subs but if you install 4 subs in your room and use something like Dirac with base management the effect I would suspect to be much better. In AVRs where you don’t have separate sub connections you might consider this.
Cheers Terry mate for another great video!
Even though Rel recommends having your stereo subwoofers positioned behind your stereos
I chose to have mine positioned behind my sweet spot (basically out of veiw) and the best thing about rel subwoofers and there seamless integration is that when I get guests over and I stick some music on... the heads turn to my little bookshelve speakers and I know what they're thinking...
'how the hell do those small speakers sound so huge'
then I think to myself oh yeah that's how its done 😁
click on the red dragon to view / listen
Big shout out to the support structure at Rel especially Ben and his Enthusiasm in wanting to help 👍👍👍
Great video lovely subwoofers
This is the video i'm looking for.
I'd love to go visit REL if only to find out the right way to set up my Stentor 3 and to hear the newer subs
So LFE+Main is what they basically are trying to overcomplicate :D
Kind of but not quite because you can only do that in AV products for stereo not for multi channel - its a different approach to the traditional sat sub way of setting up
@John Smith sometimes that can sound OK John it all depends on lots of factors but yes technically it's double the signal
I think the set up not as easy as the video shows.
1. I think you need to time align the sub with the speakers. Especially if the sub location far away from the speakers.
2. If using hi pass level for example for the front speakers. The rel sub is sealed and how about if the front speakers is ported? because front speakers not using any hi pass filter, on front speakers tuning port the phase will be reverse and it will messed up the subwoofer freq res.
3. Again using 2 subs (not eq distant)for LFE no time alignment, I am sure the freq res is messed up.
4. I think in my opinion add dedicated sub for center channel makes more reasonable as center channel is most active speaker in home theater. But even that for dedicated center channel subs, I like to use at least 2 subs, time align and using LPF filter for the sub and HPF for the center speaker to prevent phase shift on center channel tuning port (for ported center channel)
Great video Terry. Love REL. I used to sell alot of their product and I still enjoy my Strata 5 with a Bass Line cable every day. Fantastic to see the team in action. Fantastic content
awesome factory!
Nice system, but frankly I'd mud wrestle my granny just for a pair of those Harbeth's left laying around.
Haha
I always look forward to REL videos.
Question:
When set to large speakers, this gives the sub information to play, but isn't this also send LF information to speakers that often (if not virtually always) can't handle those frequencies??
Thanks, again 👏👏👏
That's true. That's why you connect the HIGH LEVEL to handle all the LFE.
But doesn't this type of high level connection introduce timing issues where the receiver can't adjust delay for the bass?
That is a potential downside or compromise of it yes, so I think having the subs near the speakers as much as poss makes sense - for higher bass freq more so than lower
Why not use towers also for the centre channel? Would that work better ?
REL "haaytch" Q =)
I notice towers are used for surrounds. Would that work better than bookshelves? I guess running towers Full Band works better? Also your thoughts on using towers for centre channel ?
Why ship worldwide but not America...? I think you can buy them over there
They do sell in the US but that's handled in the US not from the UK
when your mains have very good (25-30hz) bass, a Rel sub (high level) does almost nothing extra. It can actually hurt the sound quality ... I've got the measurements and listening tests to prove it 😮 and that also goes for the more expensive S series which I have 😮
What about above 30hz which is more important anyway. You can use the REL to improve and manage the bass rate and level much higher than where the speaker rolls off. That is how I think you use subwoofers best anyway and speakers rarely output enough bass when they are not boundary loaded
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I'm having "bad" luck that my mains are already quite powerful in the 30-80hz bass region. The subs are making bass more muddy instead of more powerful. Fase doesn't help either. Oh well, going to think up a situation where the subs are a bonus again ;-) My mind needs a reset 🙂 which often helps.
@@ericshutter5305 maybe it’s because they are adding too much in certain regions that are already hot and that is causing ringing. Maybe consider advanced room correction like Dirac live where you can measure and see this and be able to manage the bass to be much better
A bit confused, are we using 3 or 4 subs in the setup? 1 each for L/R, Centre, Surrounds, LFE? Am I correct ? Do you also recommend to apply audyssey or any other software?
in the end there was 4 - 3 used for speakers and 2 sharing the LFE duty. Running a dsp solution will be fine too if you want to
Am trying to understand if you use stereo and home theatre on the same system what happens to the sub out on the .1 when using 2 channel does the sub still work or does it just use the subs attached to the front towers ?
It will depend on how the AV receiver or processor is setup - for 2 channel music + subs will play the .1 subs but just left and right stereo will not
The real comparison would be doing the REL 3D with DIRAC compared to a 80hz crossover regular setup with subs in same position. REL 3D is tempting but I would be worried with room modes and output pr full range speakee.
Whatever way I setup any system I would use Dirac but I think that is a little different :)
The whole purpose of the rel 3d is exactly what you said the fact the speakers won't be full range enough on their own. There are other factors to consider like dynamic capability and amplifier power too. Always lots of factors and there are more than one way to skin a cat
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Absolutely. I own dual S212/sx's and currently not using them high level. I am tempted by the REL 3D concept and could implement it with my total of 4 subs - 1 each corner basicly. As I am considering a Trinnov SSP as my winter upgrade I suppose I would use that to route bass and do fullrange + LFE and try out what is best. In fact with a Trinnov one could maybe do a much easier A/B test. I would add that when using the REL 3D theater setup a large bass output in a surround speaker that only has maybe a smaller sub would struggle as compared to a traditional 80hz setup where all the subs would help out + control room modes. At any rate would enjoy testing this out more.
@@mrlinde6518 personally I think going a hybrid route for setup would bring the best results I need to have to a play with this at some time to try and work it out but there are benefits to both setup routes so to me it's makes sense to try and get all of them. But as I say I havent tried this yet to know what fruit it might bare
Hi Terry, Great Video and very interesting channel
I am planning to setup a 3D subwoofer set up with 4 REL subs as -
1. 1 REL T/7x for Center channel - using High Level Input only
2. 1 REL T/7x for dedicated Rear surrounds - using High Level Input and LFE (one .1 sub out from AVR)
3. 2 REL T/9xs, one for Left and one for Right Mains - using High Level Input and LFE (other .1 sub out from AVR using a Y splitter to 2 subs). These speakers and subs (without LFE) will also be used for 2 channel listening.
Do you see any issues with this 4 sub setup? Are the REL models I chose apt for this setup?
Question on sub for surrounds. I am planning to do a 7.2.4 setup. How can I connect all my surround channels (4 surrounds and/or 4 atmos) to the high level input of the surround sub?
Appreciate your help. Thank You.
Best to contact REL with questions about going this route with their subwoofers
I bought a REL Strata Sub when it first came out, still have it, and it still works. Which is more than I can say for the Jamo sub that came with the D500 THX Select package I bought. :(
Fantastic!
@Pursuit Perfect System, now that you have experienced a REL 3D Subwoofer scenario, what are your thoughts concerning Dirac Live? Even more so, Dirac Live with Bass Control? I ask because my upgrade path includes upgrading my subs and processor. I am deciding between the Emotiva RMC-1 (Bass Control Upgrade not possible)and the Arcam AV40 (Bass Control Upgrade possible). Because of how unique REL subs are, is the Bass Control Upgrade worth the cost? Thank you in advance for the response.
I feel the same about Dirac, I still see it as essential because room acoustics are always bad. Bass Control wont be of benefit to a REL 3D system. Bass Control is a system to help better integrate speakers with subwoofers that are connected via lfe and where there is a crossover from the speakers to the subwoofers. The REL 3D system doesnt work like that, it can and will still benefit from Dirac but not in the same way
Great video Terry.
I have a question: I’m currently using a Carbon Special, connected to my center channel via the high-level connection. The improvement is phenomenal!
For my rear channels, do you think I should get another Carbon Special? Do the rear channels get enough signals for a Carbon Special, or do you think I could just get a S/510?
I prefer my system to have a bit more kit than average; so, do you think the Carbon Special is a better option for my rear channels?
Thank you,
Reggie
use a T9x for rear/side channels ... more then enough for those channels.
@@ericshutter5305
Thank you.
Hi Terry, I have two questions for you. I know that the equipment and the processing options were completely different to your own set up choice but do you prefer your 4 Rel Predators or this 3D subwoofer sound you’ve experienced. And my other question is that if your av receiver only has xlr connectors how would one connect via high level connection.
The predators dont have a high level connection - they are not designed for that - REL designed them for the LFE channel only - I used them in a more usual subwoofer fashion speakers to small crossing over to 80hz and then managing the bass in the processor and with DSP. I think some of the subs have balanced inputs but you will have to look into that as I dont know off the top of my head which is which
@@PursuitPerfectSystem One more question. While you was at Rel factory did you get a chance to listen to the Rel No 25. And if so what was it like. I think many of your viewers will be also curious about what your answer to this question will be 🙂. Many thanks.
How would you underpin the fronts with a HT series subwoofer?
You would do it using a more traditional subwoofer setup rather than a rel 3d way
@@PursuitPerfectSystem thank you! So you mean via LFE? since the HT subs do not have high level. that would not engage the fronts ?
@@yogabyaakaash yes because the HT subs don’t have high level
One word: Marketing
One word: Why?
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I own two RELs, their message to public: buy more and neutric is blue pill for everything. It is usual nice looking subs nothing more, with their pros and cons. They play badly on infra frequencies, rattling on low, jumping on the floor, expensive. Pros: nice looking and fast.
I setup REL's a lot and I haven't experienced that - I don't think they claim their subwoofers to be huge output at deep frequencies - they claim they are fast and they are fast
@@PursuitPerfectSystem unfortunately they don’t have infrasonic filters, their lfe regulator useles too. Whatever comes to them they trying to play. So my solution to keep them was: add another one, no useles neutric, dsp in front, processing with room measuremements. Only after that they start playing. So what they claim is marketing not more, apart of fastness. But there is lot of cons.
This does look awesome but if I did this in my listening room I had nowhere to sit! Even after the wife had left me
Wow, you all need to do some research on Bass management... better still do the experimentations for yourselfs... almost guaranteed you will not end up with a setup such as this. This setup simply sells more subwoofers (which sadly to say, by looking at quite a few of the comments, it's working).
Thats being very cynical John - there are 4 subwoofers in this system, thats no different to a lot of home cinemas so its the same amount of subwoofers - just setup differently. I am a professional Dirac calibrator so I understand bass management as well as anyone and I do talk about this in the review section of the video.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem No, actually it isn't. It is simply years and years of experience that tell me that, although you no doubt heard some improvements, that clearly one could achieve even better results from other implementations of Bass management then the one being suggested here... this I have no doubt. So I stand by my original comment.
@@johndaddabbo9383 as I said John I also have years of experience and setup home cinemas for people as part of my job. I agree bass management and dsp adds or allows a level of control you wont get without it that is not in question but that doesn't take away a potential advantage of implementing some of this too I think you are just missing that bit.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem @Pursuit Perfect System No, I am not at all missing that for my first comment specifically states "almost guaranteed" that a better contrived setup can used. And in my 2nd comment I state "improvements were no doubt heard" however no doubt one can do even better (and with less, i.e. one less sub even). So in a nutshell, I have simply been suggesting that one can do better (and I stick by my that notion). I will add that I am not (and I did not) state that anything that you had stated was incorrect, but simply one can do even better than this approach IMO ;)
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Terry love all your videos. Your content shows that you are an experienced professional working in the audio industry. However this video looks and feels like a promotional video for REL. If it is a promo video and you gained some benefit from it then more power to you.....but you need to let your viewers know.
You sure you're busy enough Terry?....
thanks for noticing Geoff thats why I look half dead most of the time
@@PursuitPerfectSystem still a good looking rooster..
Get to the Quads dude
I am writing the script now keep your Alan's on ;)
Old boy needs to zip up/buy bigger pants.