Disagreeing With Jenna Moreci
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Because I'm a dingus this is the second version of this video, this time with less useless blackness on the end. Slow clap for me everyone. Bows
What's this? Julian is making bad choices and disagreeing with the cyborg queen! Soon it will be Buttercup the tiny doggy vs Nigel the cat with the long tail! But what could Julian possibly have to disagree with from this titan of authortube?
Note: In case I didn't make it clear in the video I believe that NEITHER Pansters nor Plotters are superior. Everyone has their own style and many of us are somewhere in between! Your process is your process. I only encourage us to remember that the way we do things is not always the correct or only way to do things, which is important to remember when you're a hugely popular authortuber.
Jenna's video: • 10 Hard Truths of Bein...
Links and crap
Julian's author page on Facebook: www.facebook.c...
Julian's Patreon: www.patreon.co...
Julian's Redbubble page: www.redbubble....
Julian's Twitter: / juliangreystoke
Julian's Instagram: / juliangreystoke
Julian's Goodreads: / 14927339.emily_luebke
Phoenix (my book): www.amazon.com...
Trailer Video for Phoenix: • Book Trailer ~Phoenix ...
Julian's Tumblr: www.tumblr.com...
AO3:
archiveofourown...
Wattpad: www.wattpad.co...
Deviantart : juliangreystoke...
Pariah Caste Gaming Channel: / pariahcaste
I stopped watching Jenna after I realised that she makes it look like there's a single correct way to write books. But actually it's not. There are some things that work for most writers but they might not work for you. There's no shame in being a pantser even if all the other writers in the world are plotters.
The greatest pantser is also perhaps the most successful writer of all time: Stephen King.
@@michellowe8627 as well as George R.R. Martin.
And let’s be honest, her voice is annoying. High pitched, grating
@@magicalmystery1964 oh yess
It's not her voice, but her manner. It reminds me a turkey or a chicken. I believe IRL she sounds more pleasantly, but her Internet Persona is quite annoying
Hi Nigel!
"My characters are misbehaving" is a shorthand, a metaphor, for "the characters I built aren't working with the story I plotted, and resolving that mismatch is taking more time than I'd like it to."
Whenever people bash me for saying that my characters threw my plot a little out of balance, i like to tell them that my motivation and their motivation are two different things. Yes, my characters may not be real people, but in the world of my book, they are real, and they are influential. To have good characters they have to stick to their own ideals, which can throw the writers outline off for the sake of writing a believable character. If you make your character suddenly does something they feel they wouldn't think of doing, just so you can stick to your outline or lead the plot in the way you orginally intended, readers are gonna notice that, and thinks it's weird.
Yeup! Characters need agency and that's what makes us - the audience - care about the story. Forcing things to align with the plot is one of the worst things any writer can do.
Yes! A lot of authors talk about their characters like they are real people and that’s okay. Let your characters lead the plot if that’s what works for you, it’s what works for you. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
Yep, if you just treat your characters like pawns acting out the story the way you want it to go, it's noticeable, and it's not good. Your characters won't feel like people with personalities and motivations that drive the plot, they will feel like what they are, cardboard cutouts that only exist to do what the author wants them to do.
@@g.e.causey
Yes. One could say I'm a classics worshiper. The one thing about the Classics that I have noticed compared to young adult novels and most books today, is that the novel (such as Charles Dickens's Great Expectations or his Christmas Carol) is based upon the character's personal journey. It isn't about the adventure that happens to them. The adventure is more on the sidelines, and helps them grow as a person. The plot is not the main focus; the characters are, which I really appreciate and deviate more towards, because that is what I grew up with.
Also, you can't force anything onto a character. They are essentially their own person. I like to think that you create a whole other 'compartment' in your brain devoted to that one character, their story, and development. When you are more plot-driven, the book just ends up like everyone else's book on the shelf, and that gets redundant and old after a while.
That’s so true. When you create a character if they're authentic they own themselves. When you put your characters in certain situations they will act like they will, and you the author can’t control that. The only way we stop characters from doing things we don’t want them to do, is to not put them into situations where they’ll move plot points or take action we don’t want.
So absolutely, characters are free and they will take action that might even shift the plot of the book. I’ve had that happen before in my own writing
Contrary to what a lot of many think, people are allowed to have a different opinion. I know Ms. Morrci has a very "My way or the high way" vibe about her, but everyone writes differently and that should be respected. I like you are pointing out there is more than one way to do it and explaining to everyone why an author can be invested in their characters. Rachel Aaron was stuck in a scene for weeks until she just let her characters play it out on the page and it worked perfectly.
Yes! Everyone writes differently. Not everyone writes the same!
Aaahhh I love Rachel Aaron, I get ridiculously happy when people mention her
I actually don’t agree with you about Jenna’s vibes. You might be projecting or something because she seems the exact opposite to me
@Anna Barwo that is false, and you know it.
Jim Carrey is a method actor. When he gets an acting role, he plays the character all day, every day, after the cameras have stopped rolling. Everyone has their own process that works for them.
Exactly!
It shows in Jenna's writing that she is a rigid plotter. Not to say that amazing authors should not meticulously outline! However, if you're a plot driven writer you have to work extra hard to make sure your characters feel like people who make active decisions rather than reacting to your plot which is a reoccurring critique of Jenna's characters.
I like Jenna's channel but she speaks about characterization with a lot of authority for an author that arguably struggles with that area most.
I am a mix of plotter and pantser, whilst I need at least some form of a vague outline to stop me getting overwhelmed and lost, I also can’t primarily focus on an outline/plot or else I find it stifles my character arcs and I’m unable to sort of write authentically. If that makes sense. I absolutely agree with you and found myself wincing a couple of times during her newest video. Whilst I agree with some of her points, I don’t understand why the thought of others upholding characters above all else irks her so much. That’s just how some people are, as you said. And to be brutally honest, having read Eve and watched the Saviour’s Champion read along I find that her works suffers heavily from the lack of characterisation. So much so that (in my opinion) it baffles me that she has the vast audience she does, because whilst her books can certainly be viewed as pure escapism by some (and that’s probably why her audience is so big) I found the writing and characters in general too formulaic and one dimensional for them to accomplish captivating me into escapism. I tend to find her work overly generic, however her videos can be quite informative. Especially on the marketing side.
Same! I am the exact same way!
Yeah, that point rubbed me wrong, too. I'm a very character-driven writer; I may speak of my characters doing x, y, and z, but I know they aren't real. However, those characters need to feel real in the world and story in which they inhabit. As my characters form within that world, I have the grace to adjust the plot to create a more realistic experience for the reader, so they truly believe, yes, this is what x character would do. The best term for my style of writing comes from GRR Martin: I'm a gardener. I plot out my garden beds, let them develop, and am not afraid to adjust when a volunteer tomato suddenly springs up (though I hope I'll be a faster gardener than him). My entire series plan shifted as I realized one character could never ally with this one group, and I think the series is better for the new route her morals required.
When you create a character, you give it life. They will come to you and ask you to tell their story. Real? "Just because it's in your head doesn't mean it isn't real." - Dumbledore Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows 2
I like Jenna as a RUclipsr, not so much as an author. I've seen her grow as an author (I literally could not get past the first few pages of her first book whereas I actually finished Savior... even if it was through gritted teeth). I think the reason I don't like her as an author is because of her rigidity. The first time I saw her process I thought "No. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!! Why do you have so many flash cards?! and boards! Why does it cover the floor?!" Her way, which is obviously very successful for her, is anxiety inducing for me. I can't say I'm a full on pantser, but I definitely don't plot like that. There needs to be a word for those of us in the middle. Or that start off plotting before going full on pantser.
Thanks for the response to that video. I hope your channel becomes as successful as hers and then you guys can have a Plot/Pants Off party..... ohhh that came out wrong. I'm going to go now.
I can't remember what I called myself in a comment I left on another video recently, but yeah, I'm in the middle, too. I plant seeds, for sure. And I know what kind of flowers they'll grow into. But when I try to control where things will grow, it doesn't work. It stops my creative flow. I just have to sit back and watch what my characters are doing and write what I see.
I'm working on a trilogy right now, and you can sure as hell bet I've got my outline, I've got a notebook full of details about the characters and different things that are happening behind the scenes, and even a calendar I drew up so I know when things are happening and can keep the timeline straight. But as far as the actual writing? Yeah, basic outline for the chapters and what will happen i them. Do my characters throw a monkey wrench in things occasionally and go completely off the rails? Abso-freaking-lutely.
I feel bad for new writers who see her videos. I can separate out the bad from the good and what will work for me or not. But new writers? If they haven't found their process yet and these things wouldn't work for them, they'll spend months, if not years, wondering why it doesn't work for them and thinking they're not good enough, rather than experimenting and finding what works best for them.
@@kateworkman921 I think you and I have a similar system. "The picture on the package says these seeds will be roses. I would LIKE roses. I understand I might up with daisies or maybe even cucumbers. If they can all just grow in this area, successfully, then i'll be happy, even if they arent roses."
I tried doing a full plot outline and I'd get lost. I didnt know enough about my characters to write the summary before the book and the only way I'd learn about my characters is if I wrote about them. The more I let them galavant about the world doing EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE F'N PLOT, the more they became their own people and created a plot. I liked the stories they told better than the ones I used them to play dolls with. So.... if you insist on being cucumbers instead of roses, little characters that's fine. Just be. that's enough.
My plotting is now sorta of a "So there's these people. and they want to do a thing. There's probably a heist at some point but that's tenuous. It might just be a tea party. The main characters has an incredibly strong relationship with their mother. Or baby brother. Or this stray dog they found. There's a chance it's an inanimate object actually. It hasn't decided what it is yet and I'm not going to rush them. But the main character LOVES it, ok? Anyway its about that time that the ballerinas and/or aliens show up... I mentioned this is a historical romance right? It's suppose to be a historical romance but its starting to look more like it's a cucumber to be honest."
@@faecreature21
Lol, omg, I needed the laugh this comment brought me. I love it.
I'm not that much of a pantser (my phone autocorrected pantser to pancake and I'm kinda here for that.) If I'm planting the seeds, I know they'll be roses, but it's more "will these be red roses like the package says? Or will they be white? Or blue? Or red and white striped? And will they be tall? Short? Prickly bush? Winding vine?"
And so on. I definitely have an outline for the trilogy I'm working on now, but my characters go off the rails and sometimes, my chapter doesn't end where I planned, sometimes it doesn't happen the way I outlined, but I just have to follow them, because they know best.
@@kateworkman921 glad it brought a life :) I admire your ability to make roses out of rose seeds. That is a talent! and now I will always imagine pantser as pancake!
I alternate between plotting and pantsing. Each of my stories has two documents; an analysis document that contains a summary of the story, a list of main characters, and evolving plans, and the story itself. I plot in the analysis and pants in the story, and jump between the two documents as I go along.
Does Jenna not know that Tolkien, Martin and Herbert all wrote/write in completely different ways than she says to, and they're ya know, the best?
Yes! Yes! Yes! Preach! Tolkien was a mad genius. He did something only us mortals could dream of doing. He was actually the one who brought Elves into the light of the Western world and made them so popular. Without him, they would probably still be lost in the dark confines of human history and folklore.
@@returnoftheromans6726 yikes
I think the reason she acts as if her style is the correct one is because most people who watch her channel are people who are lost with their own writing and coming to her for advice, so instead of further complicating things with multiple points of view she gives them one simple "truth" of "the correct way to write" so that they'd get to actually writing instead of browsing RUclips for answers.
It's a bit like when a karate sensei teaches "the right way to fight". Sure there are other fighting styles, but you didn't come to a karate dojo to learn about the intricasies of different styles, but to learn karate.
The sassy style of delivering the info can surely be criticised, but I don't think she literally believes plotting to be the only way to write. That's just what she knows the best, and therefore what she teaches to beginners.
This comment!
@@returnoftheromans6726 This comment is the greatest which is mind-blowingly correct! 🤍
something that does bother me about Jenna is how her advice always centres around being diverse and inclusive of everyone but then chastises you if you dare criticise her writing help.
plus shes not even good at said diversity herself 😭😭
I immediately clicked off the video as soon as she got into her old white man mentor tirade. Like I wanna take advice from someone like that. Plus she struck me as being obnoxious.
@@johngonzalez2495 I'm pretty late to the party, but yeah, that mentor tirade really got under my skin too. Having a few bad experiences with old white man is no good reason to call the mentor trope bad. Especially since most of the most popular mentor characters aren't even white (Morpheus, Mr. Miyagi, Yoda, Coach Carter, just to name a few).
Honestly, as much as it kind of bugs me when people actually use that as a legitimate excuse to not write, I think Jenna was kind of harsh on this point. Which of course is her brand, but sometimes it bugs me when she acts like her opinions are the only way to do things.
Same!
It messed with me a bit how she phrased it because my system is especially weird and she literally at one point said something along the lines of 'you don't have conversations with them'. Except I do, kind of. My first draft/ outline is written by me imagining sitting down with the pov character(s) and interviewing them about what happened. I actually picture them sitting in whatever space I'm in and even sometimes catch myself staring where I think they would sit. I write it out like an interview glossing over details they don't find important, focusing on things that may not be super relevant or get cut but that they would get hung up on you get the idea. I've successfully written five novels this way and finally decided to look into publishing after falling for a bit of a scam the first time I tried.
Hey, this is completely off topic from the video, and the point of your comment, but I was intrigued by how you described your process for creating characters. I'm currently writing my first book, and am trying to flesh out my characters. I've been having such a hard time with it, however, that I find that I am making excuses for not doing it! It's such a big, and intimidating, task to me. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of questions do you ask? Is it strictly about what happened, or anything about them? I hope this isn't coming across as too forward, or impertinent, I'm just kind of desperate, and your method is the first I've heard of that might actually work for me XD
@@shainawareing6627 Not at all though my process is a bit... unusual so I'm not sure how helpful this will be. So before I started writing I became chronically ill. Originally my characters were a way to help me coupe. Basically when I would feel crappy they would spend the day with me and help me think through my process. Now when I'm working on a new character I use that same process. I spend a day with each main character just going about my business with their commentary and thoughts asking questions the way you would any time you're trying to get to know someone. Once we've gotten to know each other then I move on to plot related questions. Some times when I hit a writing wall, I just have a day where the character and I 'hang out' again. I hope that makes sense and feel free to ask any new questions I may have given you.
@@solacessewingcorner1396 that actually makes perfect sense! I too suffer from a chronic illness. I used to do something similar, but with "adventures". On bad days I would imagine myself on a grand adventure fighting dragons or discovering lost worlds. Your process sounds incredibly like this, just with people rather than events
@@shainawareing6627 I'm glad. I hope this helps you!
I did this too and it’s incredibly helpful. I recommend to anyone who is considering writing a book!
Your characters' personalities should dictate their actions in the story not an outline. If the situation in the outline doesn't fit the character's character and/or go against their character . Then you would have to change up the intended outlined scene to fit the respective characters' personality to be consistent with them. So I agree with you.
On the other hand, if soneone know his/her character so well which helps the planning (something I totally can't do), it is not bad. So... one can work hard enough on their characters without writing the story yet
(As a pantser I change things like crazy, but I'm not exemple to anything. I mean, I can't decide on an ending)
Yeah, saw this point in some of her earlier videos and her harshness bugged me a bit. The way she said it makes it seem like she doesn't understand metaphors.
Writing is a lot like having imaginary friends. I have made up people who live in their own wacky world and make me feel all sorts of ways.
I think it’s pretty good and cool.
Jenna's writing is very bland, and I find her videos and advice the same. She doesn't say anything I didn't hear over a decade ago when I was looking for help how to be a better writer. This isn't bad in itself for new writers, but she offers nothing for anyone seasoned, and I'm not a fan of her personality. Her marketing skills, though, those are something to envy. I think she should stop writing and offer her skills to authors for a profit.
I agree. She might be really cut out for marketing in publishing because she for sure does that really well.
she just shares advice she finds in google and obviously don't apply them to her writing
I think she does have some paid courses somewhere now (2 years later). Skillshare maybe?
@@dembonez19 Yeah and she's a grade-A bullshit scam artist who charges money to teach people shit she is clearly not an expert in considering she started writing 6 years ago and her books are not anything impressive in the slightest and she clearly doesn't practice what she preaches.
Even for new writers her advice can be more harmful than helpful, because of the, "this is how it's done, and if you do things differently, you're wrong" vibe she gives. One particular thing she's said that I take issue with is, "write every single day," because I tried to force myself to write everyday, and I burned myself out for months, you shouldn't push yourself to write daily if you really can't. I think it's good to *try* to write everyday, but you should learn to recognize when you're just forcing yourself and should stop.
It's been something that's bothered me before but I never had the idea to say something. I needed to hear this, I write very pantser way and my characters do all these things, and it's not childish it's a process. Thank you for making this video. Hi to Nigel! 💜💜💜
I agree with all that you just said. Moreci's style is a bit too stiff for me. I like outlines, but it's nice to leave a little space for whimsy
I know this is an older video, but I'm new to your channel. I'm basically an intuitive plotter. I outline to the level of a short summary of each scene. Then when I write, I imagine the scene playing out in my mind. If it makes more sense for my character to do something differently than I'd originally planned, I adapt my plan-- even if that requires going back to modify previous work. If I realize that what I want to write absolutely requires X but X makes no sense for this character, then I need to either change the character so that X-- whatever it may be-- does make sense or find a way to make the story work without that particular thing X.
Dude letting your process be character driven is so valid though. In an early version of my WIP (it was something like 25ish chapters), my characters were nowhere near as developed and I got stuck. I didn't like where things were going, I'd planned on scrapping the last 5 chapters I wrote, etc. Got my sibling to read it over and they helped me rework everything to a level that I'm a lot more happy with. Bouncing ideas off people and talking it out is such a helpful tool, especially if you're like me and don't necessarily plot the whole character out at the beginning but find them in the words.
I remember this video from Jenna and it infuriated both me and my hubby because I felt attacked by the way I write. My beta readers has told me how alive my characters feel, how natural the dialogue is and the character development happens naturally, so I know I do something right. Fortunately, I have a husband who understands my way 100% so I can talk to him about how and why my characters do this and that, and he will join in like we talk about a mutual friend. And I'll continue doing it my way...
"Today I'm going to make bad choices" Oh! Relatable :D
I never believed that characters could influence the story without your outline and then I noticed my protagonist obsessing over a line someone dropped and it turned into the whole main plot and put me over a hundred thousand words. Sometimes it just happens
I stopped watching Jenna over a year and a half ago. Can't stand her voice- oh god I can't stand it. I can't stand the way she talks down to other writers and makes it sound like her way is the only way- yeah into a dumpster. Maybe she is a cyborg? You know robots only do what they are programmed to do. I get so deep into my characters mind that sometimes they do take the scene in a different direction. It isn't because they ARE real people, it's because they have REAL personalities that are much different than my own. It's called having Fleshed-out Characters, but she wouldn't know that because her characters are as bland as powdered rice.
She does come off as condescending. My way or no way. I absolutely hate it, too.
@@briannalee1998 Yeah and considering she isn't that good of a writer and started her channel giving writing advice when she didn't even publish her Eve book yet is incredibly narcissistic of her, not to mention she never shuts up about her book and instead of showcasing books she's read as a backdrop, she only showcases her "best seller" and very amateur books TSC and TSS... I can't stand her attitude and her "advice" that's based on barely any experience.
Her voice is deeply annoying. It makes me feels like a really rough surface and her voice is a bunch of nails dragging over me. Weird analogy, I know
Her voice is deeply annoying. It makes me feels like a really rough surface and her voice is a bunch of nails dragging over me. Weird analogy, I know
She always sounds like she's whining.
Don't worry, you've explained your position well. I'm a rigid plotter too but I also need a well-rounded view of my characters. If I don't have a clear image of them I work on it until I do.
When your make-believe friends act in unexpected ways, you sit down and report them. There is no reason to justify your characters to anyone. Even other writers.
Thank you! So true! So true!
I haven't watched Jenna's videos in a while, but when this one dropped I saw people quoting it on Twitter and decided to stay away.
I'm definitely a plotter, and I also rely on characters telling me what to do. They know what they would and wouldn't do in a story so it's a mix of me trying to plot the story and getting told out when characters have an issue with what's happening. I've had so many fights with them, and usually they're right and know how to make the story stronger or we have to heavily explore the deeper issue that generally ends with some kind of compromise. I've had villains who won't be villains. I've had minor characters declare themselves to be leads and tell me to deal with it. I've had characters argue their relationships aren't authentic.
I've recently started learning how theme plays into the story-character-theme trifecta and I've had a hell of a time learning to use theme to create resonant character arcs that thread through the plot I've created. I may be a plotter, but there are so many things that have to be scrapped and redone. Thankfully, I think I'm finally getting somewhere.
Returned - Upvoted - And time for the comments!
As a fellow character alchemist, with a brewing world of "living ideas" ? I have so many ways I could go on and on to back you up.
However, instead of doing that I have a counter-point question to hit right into the worst comment she made.
The embarrassing comment.
Do we craft these characters to be loved? To be adored? To be thought of by the fans, that we may or may not get, as people who's story they are reading that happened in another time in another place?
If we, as authors, as artists are embarrassing, is the characters being loved as we love them, just as embarrassing?
When a booktuber makes a list of people to invite to FriendsGiving, that is made up solely of fictional characters: Is that embarrassing?
When people ship characters together because they resonate in ways that cause others to stop and spend the moments that we get on this crazy blue/green orb to daydream about romances that can not be, for various reasons, is that embarrassing?
Is capturing the life and times of a character so that it would pass a "sensitivity read" embarrassing?
Self-Ref Anecdote:
I have a book that I set to pass the sensitivity read of a half dozen women of various ages and backgrounds. It did. And they loved the diverse nature of the women. As I took the time out to dream them, to converse (falling back on acting and character acting lessons from my youth) to flesh them out. Is that embarrassing?
One thing that might help square the circle of the Character Alchemy is to imagine that from a former member of an acting troupe perspective, they are roles. Each character is a role. And using the Stanislavski Method:
The Internal Monologue
Understanding the objectives and methods of a character allows a performer to create an internal monologue for that character. Real people typically have a semi-constant flow of thoughts going on in their minds, and the Stanislavski method attempts to create a similar internal monologue for a character. This technique helps each action feel as if it comes spontaneously, rather than simply because the script says it should happen. Actors also use this monologue to help them prevent a scene from becoming repetitious or dull even after many performances.
Differences from "Method Acting"
Due of its emphasis on realism, the Stanislavski method is often used in modern plays, film, and television. It should not be confused with Lee Strasberg’s “Method Acting,” however, which involves an actor attempting to completely become a character. The Stanislavski method maintains that a performer must remain somewhat separate from the character, in order to properly understand his or her motivations and goals.
THUS - So I can finish this wall of text
You know that the characters are going to have tea, and as they're sipping the tea one of them speaks in a turn of the phrase, or a secret comes out, a desire as you the author knowing their desire and you write it and now your carefully plotted journey just hit a serious turn for the unknown.
Pantsters and Character Driven Writers are not inferior, or superior, they are using a different method. She came for your method, it's justified to speak up and say "No. It's mine."
There is no impostor syndrome to it.
It is the moment when you are truly meeting the character and understanding the role.
It's not the outline. It's your own genius that you're wrestling with.
And such as it was with the script in my fist as I looked up to the director of our troupe, I would ask, "is this how we're doing this?"
And thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
I'm an actor too and you're right, I think it totally helps me learn how to really embody my characters!
@@JulianGreystoke Yeah! :D
Over the years, I have found writing to be both iterative and emergent. It is clearly a dynamic process that changes with time; sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. I work with outlines; but, these are NOT static exercises. As the process unfolds, or the Story emerges with clarity, the logic of my characters DO require that I, the writer, stop to reevaluate the Story emergent as the characters face different situations the plot has determined. As the Story becomes clear, with successive iterations (or drafts), the logic (as well as the personality) of each character often demands revision, change, and discovery. To say such change in direction is the result of poorly crafted characters is as puerile, perhaps more so, as saying "Stick to the Script." I come to Story Telling from writing scientific studies where practitioners are routinely criticized for "Not Listening To The Data," as if reams of paper on which recorded numbers can actually talk. Indeed they do! Only fools refuse to listen revising what their numbers tell them. In short, Lady Greystoke, do not apologize for talking with your characters. More importantly, pay careful attention to what they teach you.
It's great to hear more character-driven pantser stories! My characters sometimes "do" unexpected things. Feedback I got on one of my protagonists was that "she does things that make her seem insane to stay sane." My characters work out best when I don't try to control their actions and just write them into the story.
I found your page on Amazon and put you on my "book to buy" list. I look forward to reading your book when I have the time, likely after this semester ends.
I've watched Jenna Moreci, but she's not my favorite authortuber. I get a weird vibe when I hear what she has to say.
Nigel is a cute kitty! He's putting his tail in your face say, "hi, I love you!"
Awww thanks! I hope you enjoy my book!
@@JulianGreystoke No problem! It's always great to hear when people enjoy what I write, so I love helping other authors see what they do well. It will be a while before I can read it, but I will review it on Amazon and Goodreads once I do.
I do theater with you and one of the things that makes it so good is that now every single character has a representative as an actor who is NOT me. With wants and expectations NOT mine. And when we hit points in the script that I read as an idle reader or as my current character I did not understand or appreciate but now there is someone working on that. This line didn't make sense until X did it, we didn't figure how to get the body off stage until Y stepped up, the heroine inexplicably falls in love here and it didn't make sense until that one night of rehearsal where Z figured it out, A was one dimensional and a caricature until B played him. We rely on characters figuring out the minutiae. Writing works in a not dissimilar manner. That someone is never surprised by their writing is a little sad to me.
I'm back! Still agree with your point. Everyone has they're own method and it doesn't make them stupid if they do something you wouldn't.
Don't worry, it's perfectly fine to disagree, even with the cyborg queen. I did it, publicly, and survived :D My style of writing is a lot more similar to yours than hers. Speaking of plot and characters not wanting to stick to it, I kind of agree with her on the reason why it happens. If I do a loose outline and then do enough discovery writing and flesh out my characters, a lot of times the plot won't match the characters that emerge. Whether it's a good or bad plot, it's bad in the sense that it doesn't work with that given set of characters. It's my fault for outlining too much before I fully knew them. Do I act like they're my imaginary friends? Probably. But I try to understand how I create them, how that works into a plot and story, and never blame them for why things aren't working differently. So... I feel like she's so dedicated to her style that she sometimes says things in the most cutting, sarcastic way and that makes people disagree because either her arguments seem so shallow, or she doesn't really understand what she's talking about.
I've seen discovery authors pressured into outlining and then when it doesn't work, they blame the characters for not behaving. A lot. I used to do it. A lot :D I think it's important to know your style, what works better for you, and do that. Too often we try to implement things others do, even if they don't fit us. Unfortunately, Jenna's approach doesn't help matters. But i'm sure it brings in the views. And as she needs her platform to grow and support her... I don't know. I don't want to fault her, but I do hope more people speak about their take on things. That's why disagreements, when kept friendly and based on good arguments, help us all.
you disagreed too! Where and when! I wish to see this :)
@@JulianGreystoke Hahaha, it was a while back. Because she started talking about authors who write and release fast without understanding anything about the process. It has Response to Jenna Moreci in the title, so it should be easy enough to track on my channel. Unfortunately I can't paste a link here, because I'd end up in spam :D
I found AuthorTube through BookTube. 😊 I was subbed to Jenna long before she released her first book and I bought it when it came out. I won't say more than this on it: there was a major disconnect between the advice in her videos and her novel. A huge one. I didn't end up finishing the first chapter because of this. However, I think she's great as a RUclipsr and I really enjoy her videos.
Funny enough, I remember seeing that video and 100% disagreeing with "Our characters are not real." I'm a character driven writer. I get bored in novels if the plot overtakes the character's importance. If my characters aren't real in my mind, then they will be F L A T on the page. Writing in the mind of my character has often changed the entire feeling of a scene, even if it didn't change the direction of the scene. Once, I had written the outline for the MC to be a bit meek. Oh no, he wasn't having it. And it made the whole scene different and far more powerful. Letting the characters control a scene makes it stronger every time. I have a direction that I know the story needs to go down, but my characters will always own the scene. It's about them. Who gives a frick about anything else? 😆
I love Jenna Moreci and this is the first time I’ve seen your videos, so I just wanna say you were very respectful and made a a lot of valid points idk why anyone would get mad at this..... they’re weird
I completely understand where you're coming from, and I'm grateful that you spoke out. As a writer, I fall in the middle of the spectrum of pantser/plotter. I tend to outline and then don't strictly follow my outline. Sometimes it just depends on the story I'm writing. I.e. - different genres should be approached differently, I feel.
Jenna's videos do sometimes rub me the wrong way. I get that it's her style, but her content does sometimes feel demeaning--and not in a fun, quirky way. (This is becoming more apparent to me as time goes on.) I think she should be a little more open to other writing styles and opinions, and not write it off as simply "you do you", leaving no room for further discussion.
Also, Nigel is adorable!
Nigel says "thanks"
Did you see in her latest video the shade she threw on Pantsing? Granted it was in a video about how she plots, so no real surprises there LOL.
@@JulianGreystoke I did. I was also briefly in her discord server and I wasn't too crazy about how she talked to the users there. Starting to think maybe her content just isn't for me anymore. :(
@@jessomint her conent is very samey and she's repeating herself more and more these days so I don't watch all her content any more
@@JulianGreystoke I have to agree. Her latest felt very much like one of her older vids with a different title slapped on. Anyway (I'm watching another of your vids atm), I'm always pleased to follow a fellow ace!
@@jessomint aces find each other 😁
I was never a huge fan of Jenna because I found her to be condescending. I love your reaction and how open minded and easy going you are. Jenna has a lot of hubris, it seems like she expects writers to write like her, when in reality, everyone writes differently. No one will ever wrote the same. I am a plotter, I have to have an idea of where the story where go when I wrote it, or I get lost, but I used to be a pancer. We should think of our characters as real people because then we are more likely to wrote them as real people. One of my favorite character writers is Stephen King because he always makes his characters feel like real people. I used to be good at writing characters, now I’m not. I need to get back into writing and practicing it again because I want to be good at writing characters again. It’s okay to have a loose outline and let characters make choices for themselves. It’s also okay to plan everything ahead of time and it’s okay to deviate from your plans. Everyone’s writing process is different. She should know that.
The Al go rythm sent me here. Great video! I will never, ever tell someone they are not a writer, or that they're not good enough to be a writer, but I do take issue with how confident Jenna was in dishing out that advice. I'm a university level student studying creative writing. My fiction tutor - a simple, quiet man who actively practices what he preaches and was always honest with my class - is objectively more qualified than Jenna, having been in the industry far longer and being the recipient of multiple awards for his work. Not once did he ever dismiss anyone's plotting technique as childish or insinuate that we had imaginary friends instead of characters; in fact, he actively encouraged us to 'interview' our characters in order to understand them better, as, in his experience, it leads to a more insightful end product. I'm not saying Jenna has no right to say her piece, absolutely not, but when I compare her work and my tutor's, it's clear to me whose advice seems to result in a more enjoyable story. Confidence in front of a camera does not entirely equal confidence on the page, imo.
I've read stories that the authors say the characters took it in a "different direction," and it was bad because it meant the characters overreacted and became cartoonish. There's a balance. Authors do need to rein in some of their characters.
Having a strong handle on your writing style is key. So you know when to listen and when to rein them in. I had a character I thought was going to be one way and she went in another direction and it was great for the story. She clashed with the mc and created much needed conflict 😁
I love how you explained your perspective. And I agree, we all have a different way of writing a story 😊 And yes, we as writers do learn who our characters are the more we write them on the page. Character profiles are great but we don't really know who they are till we start putting them through the hard stuff cause then we get to problem solve creatively how that personality will react. Good video 👍
While I am a fan of Jenna as I do find a chunk of her advice helpful, I had to disagree with the 'characters won't let me write' point. She tackles her stories with more of an algorithm, while mine and many others are straight up other worlds. It's like we're writing a history book, we're writing what is going on. It doesn't feel like we're coming up with it but instead watching it play out.
My characters play things out so sometimes it really is that I can't get my characters to work for me. I must allow for them to tell me what's happening. When I write an outline and things change then oh well, new direction it is. There's a reason I don't watch her videos as often anymore...I find her rigidity and insults to other people's processes to be a bit much. As a reading and writing teacher, we teach characterization and plot. They need to know how all the parts work...not just how to write flat stories with one dimension.
Salty Narnia is fun
That's actually a really bad mindset even for a rigid plotter. You can have the most detailed outline before you start writing, but if you don't have room in your mind for "it's not according to the plot I planned" you'll end up with things that don't work. You need to be willing to make changes and adapt if what you're writing doesn't make sense for the character to do. It might have made sense in the outline, but the outline isn't binding. If you let your outline bind you, you end up with stale characters who are being shoved into a plot with no agency. This doesn't even mean your outline was bad. This is literally just editing--ya know, an essential part of the writing process no matter if you plot or pants.
This old video just popped up in my feed, and I have to say I agree 110%. It really annoys me when authors (especially high profile ones) say "this is how you must write", ignoring the fact that writing is a creative process and there's an infinite number of ways to reach the same end point, i.e. a finished, readable book. It can set beginning writers back, perhaps even put them off altogether, if they're told by someone they respect that they're not "doing it right". (Disclaimer: I too am a pantser, albeit one who likes to have a loose outline in place to avoid running out of steam halfway through the book.)
The way Jenna is in her videos is, basically, her. She sounds exactly like that on her Discord server. It's not a persona, just her. I don't know if I find that comforting or alarming.
Unless she also puts on the persona for discord. I dunno, I've never been on her server
I'm both a plotter and a pantser. I like to have solid plot points but let my characters figure out how to get to them. While Jenna makes some good points, I don't think they should ever be taken to heart. People should write in a way that works best for them. Finding your own unique voice and writing style is what will make you stand out.
Just discovered your channel. I've watched and learned a lot from Jenna but on this I need to agree with you. In my first (And only presently published book) a number of characters took control. They reached out and slapped me and said, hay this is what I'm doing. Now this came from their back story. Not that I believed they were real and I was channeling them. It was the good backstory that I gave them and my subconscious working overtime. That is what is important. Your character's backstory will influence what they say and do. Thanks for your video
I am glad I found this channel.
I am subbed to Jenna and I agree with many of her tips. I know that she may come off as condescending and harsh but I try not to take it too personally because I'm still halfway through my first draft and I'm always trying to improve my writing.
At this point in my writing I kind of slowed down because I came up with more backstory in my mind in order to get a better understanding of my main characters and how their lives intertwined in their past and how this will affect their reunion in the present. I had a rough idea about how things might end up but now that I'm exploring this backstory I find that the past is somehow going to change some of their interactions. Maybe it's not a good idea because it will halt my writing because I will have to readjust the story so that it makes sense. Hell, I already have alternative endings in my mind and I'm still keeping all of them as an option until I decide in which direction I want to take my characters.
So yeah, I started off with a rough outline but I found myself deviating from it many times because the way the characters interacted with the world and the events was different than I initially planned. I believe that doesn't matter, what matters is finding what suits your story best so that it ends up being a high quality story in the end.
Great Videos! You are absolutely right!
I did laugh a lot when I watched her video, as she says your characters are not real. Many of my characters are real people. Dead people that we know little about. But still real.
The best advice is that you can't stick 100% to another author's rules, schedules, or guildlines, because you aren't the same as that other author.
This is where I fell in love with JulianGreystoke channel.
To view a character as a real person, to allow them to guide you because you're a flow-writer who still has respect for both writing community sides.
You do not judge Jenna on her being a plotter, or criticize her for giving advice without following it. That shows you have respect for the words she has for "plotters".
You still defend pansers, I will never plan my characters allow them to grow throughout the story is my style.
I wish you best of luck as a writer, JulianGreystoke.
As a recently realized pantser, this was so refreshing. Didn't even know there was a name for it until a year ago. I've spent years questioning my writing process due to the emphasis placed on plotting and outlining. The majority of writers-help resources seem to be geared toward this type of writer. Hence, I struggled my ass off bc I tend to have a more free spirited approach to things. Plotting feels oppressive to my creative prowess. Now im more confident knowing that my process is, in fact, a legitimate process. I used to feel like iv wasn't hitting all the marks as an author simply bc I refused/ resisted rigid plotting. Now I realize I was trying to squeeze myself into a box when my soul just wanted to be free. Lol
I feel that! Luckily I came into my own as a writer before I really got into the culture or I would have spent a lot of time confused too!
@@JulianGreystoke the funny thing is, I've been writing since I was thirteen... and I never once questioned my process until very recently. Somehow the "culture" had me convinced I was doing something wrong this entire time. But then I found a Stephen King interview, and the journey back to myself commenced 😂
Furthermore, I love your vibe. You've definitely finessed my sub.
@@THE_SOVEREIGN1 now I want to do a video about pantsing. I've done a couple about my process, but it's been a minute.
Also, I have a vibe? Neat!
@@JulianGreystoke you definitely should. I absolutely encourage you to do so. I wish there were more resources for pantsers... even more representation of pantser authors. You'd be fortifying a niche that's grossly neglected. As for your vibe, you don't strike me as someone who does this for status or prestige which creates this beautiful phenomenon called authenticity. Lol You're vibe is distinctly genuine/ organic ; you have this way of communicating harsh truths through light- hearted banter. I never leave your channel feeling offended, and that's not to say that you shy away from stating your opinions but you always provide space for the human condition. Showing us it's ok to be imperfect and to have a sense of humor about our flaws. You're a lifeline in a perfectionist society. In that you have truly earned my respect. I can see the profound nature of the witch within you. Do no harm but take no shit. Its supremely possible to have that balance, although many fail to successfully embody it.
@@THE_SOVEREIGN1 oh gosh! Your so nice! Yeah it's a good thing I don't seem to be in this for the fame or I'd be pretty crushed avery all these years lol
Okay, between the darkness intro and the salt white mage shirt, you got a follower. Love me some Final Fantasy.
The Cyborg Queen was definitely a big "authortube gateway" for me. I love her pointed humor!
I am careful to ambiguate and remix multiple real people mixed with pure fabrication to safely say my 'characters' aren't real. The main perspective characters are intentionally constructed to be 'witnesses and viable drivers of the plot' which comes first. The more complex a series or collection of stories, the more structure seems to be needed.
But then there are the 'real people' they are based on ... 😁😄🤔😒
I have some brainstorming methods that include writing to myself or to/for my 'characters' and lots ... and lots ... of lucid dreaming about them (and in no way could I keep up with directly recording all of that so instead I cherrypick threads and scenes).
Sometimes my characters have a better sense of where the story needs to go than I do. I find Jenna's comments useful but I am a proud pantser
I totally agree with you! I'm also a methodological pantser. I need an outline but I have bad time sticking to it because my characters love to ruin it and take the story in a completely different direction. It's not that I'm a bad writer. I'm just different from Jenna.
Totally agree. My characters to me are as real inside a page as they would be walking down a street. Imagining them as fully fleshed is how I flesh them out in my books. Worth noting that Jenna's writing style despite all the great advice feels very flat and unsatisfying
This popped up on my recommended. I love Jenna, I really do, but that one point that she always brings up always rubs me the wrong way too because I am very much the kind of person who gets annoyed at my characters for not following what I tell them to do.
Love your style as well, so you gained anoter sub ^.^
I disagree with Jenna too. She's funny and smart, but she's really just someone who reads books and has opinions. As a writer she's total crap. She only has success due to her background in marketing and her web pressence, and those are the only things she's good at. I'm gonna be bold and say this, even though I'm not yet published, Im ten times the writer she is. I bet a lot of us aspiring authors are. I think the only issue with Jenna is that she's oblivous to how wrong she is about some critical points, and that she really can't write herself through an open door.
I am very envious of get marketing skills. She's got those nailed!
I could always try balancing out both plot and character arcs.
i stumbled upon your video by accident, but im really glad i did. i'm a very rigid plotter but it's very refreshing to see someone from the other side. i have to write a novel for school and im going nuts trying to figure out how to finish it in less than a month. it's my first character driven story. ill definitely give myself more room to explore my characters and just write whatever comes to mind.
A whole novel in a month? Is your teacher/instructor/professor insane? (I don't know if you were talking high school or collage) After backstories, plotting outlining you might be able to do a first draft in a month. That works out for a 80,000 word novel as 2,666.6666666666666 words per day. Now I'm sure you have other school work and classes to attend, a job to do, and you like to eat right? Lets say three hours a day for writing. Wow that's 889 word an hour. OK, 15 words a minute. It can be done. write back and let us know how it goes.
I've heard of successful writers having to change the planned plots of their books because the plots turned out not to be true to the characters. Charles Dickens was known for taking walks with friends, and upon seeing a random stranger, would say, "Oh, there's Pecksniff [or whoever], I don't want to talk to him today," and he and the friend would turn around.
If only he hadn't written a redemption arc for Scrooge, he and that story might be better known today.
Based on your reviews of her work, I've noticed she doesn't practice what she preaches.
I wouldn't mind so much if she would ever hint there were things she knows she's not good at, but her brand is so built around her somehow being a master of every aspect of writing that she can never say "characters are hard for me" or "I'm not as strong at world building." I wish she would. I'd still take her advice seriously.
Every method is fine, but I never loved people explaining pantsing as a consequence of characters "not behaving as planned": that's just the author exploring new ideas or being short of one, not the actual characters having a mind on their own. I need to make my characters real and when I feel they would do something else from the plot I change the plot, but that's still me realistically adjusting elements in the story because I want the best result. Talking about pantsing as the plot came from the character's will sounds a little silly and childish, and the way authors talk about their creations can make the difference between been taken seriously or not. Of course, in their world characters are real, we need them to be as close as real as possible. But please authors, own yourselves, it's still you doing all the job so speak consequently.
(Or maybe don't, I'm not your mother.)
Jenna has a kind of voice that tears my brain up. There's something about the sound of it that causes actual pain in my head.
So, I guess I'm not a plotter after all then. My characters are real people to me. I plan my outlines a lot, and yet, fhere have been moments when I have added a chapter out of nowhere, or removed stuff that in the end made not that much sense. Sit doesn't matter how much I plan, my stories are like life, shit can happen and I have to adjust to changes. I'm still a plotter, and I get to know my characters maybe a little too much. I'm a mess, and I own that.
This I feel is natural. Honestly, I think parts of all stories change if the author goes with the natural flow of their work. Every author I've talked to has said so. I think only those looking to make a product (or are just beginning) stick rigidly to their outlines.
@@mysticpanckae8390 I agree. I make plot and character outlines before starting but as I become more immersed in the characters, plot, and world I am building, I will see different opportunities that weren't obvious to me before I started.
There's no much connection between feeling your characters are real and pantsing. So you are a planner who is really good at planning character good enough in advance to feel alive (unlike me, for example, who learn to know my characters as I go. So yeah, they aren't all that vivid for me from chapter one)
You can be both or somewhere in between.
As a songwriter and painter, I totaly feel that the piece of art we are making show us the way it wants to be trough the process of making it. And our job as artist (most of the time) is listen to it. Of course I'm not saying that the piece of art has a mind of their own, but you only gets some stuff about it doing it.
Thank you for this one, very much enjoy her videos, but this specific point bothered me too. As I am very much a character driven writer. I'm am now subscribed to both of you. This will create a lovely balance.
Also I adore Nigel, cats are fantastic!
Bruh, I hate that "characters are not alive" talk
When my characters go off track, they make my plot BETTER
i watch both your an Jennas channel. And I like yours more. I think you have some some better points and a more friendly... down to earth... way of saying "consider this or that".
Thanks!! I try to be as fair and even as I can be
That would explain why your characters feel more real and developed and why hers feel like a song that keeps repeating the same note.
she really seems to view them more like game pieces she can move around and it makes me so sad tbh
Im a planster I do outline but somtimes my story goes in different direction bcoz I allow my characters to be real in their world and when I write it feel like im there along with them I find it amazing not weird thank you so much for bringing up this topic .
It's funny, when it comes to my process that's the one thing where I've never cared, whatsoever, what anyone says I have to do or don't. In fact, I used to be completely flabbergasted that anyone would think that there was any one right way to write them all.
Content wise I'm more... unintentionally flexible, such as: "you must have one overarching plot," "you must have one big bad villain at the end," "you must introduce your main villain in the first scene," "you must know exactly how your world was created," "you must have strict rules for your magic," "you can't have any rules for your magic," "You must include diversity," "You can't include diversity, because you will most definitely get it wrong," "your story must include cookies," etc.
Which has derailed my story way too often, or at least confused it into a kitchen sink of ideas.
But yeah, so...
Good points you make. Thanks and see ya.
I write as a hobby, and I find I work best when I have characters, an end goal, and a handful of major plot points. I try to let the characters drive the story, and stay within the framework of their personalities as much as possible, and the story just... goes. There are times, however, where I have had to get rid of a scene I really wanted to write wholesale because it just wasn't working or didn't contribute anything substantial to the plot.
My characters have gone in a different direction. I literally wrote almost an entire manuscript and decided to go to two POV's. I was rewriting a chapter and then suddenly my first MC decided he wanted to be with his best friend he reconnected with. Guess what, that changed my book. I'm writing a mm romance, and the love interest is important. I found a better connection and started to rewrite. It took longer to do, but I think it's a better story.
I watch Jenna regularly. I just discovered you with this video. I can be fans of both of you. I'm currently working on a first draft. My main character immediately changed his whole personality around, and he keeps wandering off script. He's given himself way more depth and growth and challenges than my paltry outline did. So, yeah. I get it. I take Jenna, as I take everyone, with a grain of salt, allowing myself to disagree and still get a laugh from her videos. Her books are okay. I may or may not get TSA when it comes out. But the videos always give me pause to reflect on my own stories and characters. Now that I have another channel to play with, I can satisfy my pantser side. I'm weirdly plotter and pantser, trying both, satisfied with neither and just going with it.
Hitting subscribe now! 🤪
Listen, I follow her too and enjoy her videos, but I agree with you here. My husband and I are co-writing an adult fantasy series and I'm a plotter and he's a pantser. We are also very character driven writers. So we have an outline, but we do a lot of collaborating and many things about the plot have changed as we develop these characters. I get what she's saying but I relate to what you're saying more. So as a plotter, I say kudos to you for validating those who have a different take on the situation.
And....................does she actually think people who develop deep characters are psychotic? Why does this feel like a gaslighting job?
Jenna Moreci is not a god authority in any way. She sounds like a soulless writer obsessed about structure. She criticizes pantsing and character driven stories, but it is her right. If you want real writing advice read and listen to established authors. By the way, Stephen King is a pantser, whose book you'd rather take on a desert island, Stephen King or Jenna Moreci's?
when my story told me that my protagonist died, I had to stop writing for a month. I was totally caught off guard and had no idea how the story would continue until new scenes were given to me. I don't understand how people plan out their stories from beginning to end before they stop writing. Sounds like some sort of formulaic assembly line for selling books.
Stephen King has said that he hates "plot" and that he just goes where his characters want to go, that he's not really in control at all. You know... Stephen King... The most famous writer in the world currently living. I think he's had a BIT more success than Jenna. But Lord help anyone who disagrees with her.
I'm a Jenna fan but I agree with you and its happened to my stories that what I originally planned for the story goes in another direction because my characters have their own personalities and so my stories don't always go where I want them to go. And I told that to a friend and they said but aren't you writing the story. Like I'm in complete control of the story but it is a process and my characters have control over their own choices. What I'm trying to say is I agree with you because it's happened to me. And some people can't understand that. Anyway thank you.
I just posted about this. I feel you are doing right. You must have great backstories on your characters and a great mind to go along with it. My suggestion, the story you treid to tell, come up with characters that fit that story. Meanwhile keep writing this story. You have gave yourself a two in one deal. You have a good future in writing.
I have 2 different outlines, one of the overall story and then I plan the chapters...usually it's just short blurbs of what I want to happen. And I STILL end up having to let my characters take over. My second outline has been changed 3 times because of this so far and I'm just on chapter 14 of my story. lol
...I make comics but writing rules still generally apply. Minus descriptions and stuff. [the actual way of writing a omic script is not like a novel, but writing rules for other stuff still the same]
I've seen a few people give her books scathing reviews. Don't worry about disagreeing with her.
Plot is just the facilitator of Character, in my opinion.
I dislike JM’s style because she treats Characters and Worldbuilding as just ornaments for the plot.
Yeah. That's what bugs me too
I agree the difference in how a writer approaches the craft is what makes this idea
When you were talking about 'oh, my character did this, or, my character did that', you reminded me of J. R. Ward... Her characters are completely real to her. (Black Dagger Brotherhood, all Vampires). Believe it or not, she only bought her current house because her characters told her it was okay, they liked it. I shit you not, her words.
I'm uh... not quite to that level yet
Nigel's tail is chaotic good!
Yet her books are filled with one note characters
My theory is that she tends to lean too hard on character profiles and never lets them grow past the list of traits she has written down
I kind of look down on writers that aren't character-driven....Too harsh? Maybe I am, maybe there's just different types of writers out there. But there are entire graduate-lever courses on character dissection in literature, and I think writing a character you can see, smell, taste, touch, feel for, and analyze is such a beautiful skill. It's likely a skill Jenna lacks and that's why she lashes out against it.
If I don't care about a character, I don't care about what's happening to them, whether it's on the page or the screen. I'm bored and frustrated until they make me care. If it doesn't happen quick enough, dnf!
Yeah…. If you actually have an issue where your characters are not making the decisions you thought the plots would go, that’s kinda a sign of a good and CLEAR character. Maybe if Jenna actually thought about that her books wouldn’t seem so slideshow-ey and with pieces of toast for characters.
Well... Characters do actually have their own lives. Not all of them, but some. What we as authors write contains parts of our own psyche. One character might be part memory of a woman that was rude on the bus. One may resemble part loving grandma, and stern 3rd grade teacher. But first and foremost some characters portray our own hopes, fears and struggles. For me, there is a characters that resembles suffering, lonelyness , but also strength. Another is the wondrous idealist... Something I thrive to be. Another one is the disgust I have with some other humans (an abuser). And one is the symbolic manifestation of my own mental illness. The thing is that our own thoughts and feelings are used to forrm these characters, and therefore some of them might be so close and real to us. We know them because we ARE them. That's why we admire them, shelter them and sometimes even give them their own "head". They ARE us. And if they "lead" us in another direction story wise it is actually mearly creative "outsourcing" of our own though processes.
Hell for some people, writer or non writer their fantasies of specific people is maybe the only healthy social bond they have. Think people who are isolated in any way (extreme example: the movie cast away). Characters are formed by thoughts and feelings in the human mind. So they are _at least to an extent_ real. Even if it's only to us personally.
Nice video that underscores the difference between planners and pantsers. I'm a pantser myself and enjoy the organic process--the discovery--while writing. As far as Jenna's videos, I tend to agree with about 65% of what she says, but I find her highly entertaining. It seems that planners and pantsers speak completely different languages and tend to hyperbolize each other, i.e., panters operate on a "wing and a prayer," and planners create two-dimensional characters only. As pointed out, the two sides tend to do the same things, though in a completely different order.
I agree that following your plot rigidly is a bad thing, especially when you work on your story sporadically. It's all about finding a balance between pantsing and plotting.
Btw you're a female Tom Holland
Female Tom Holland? I'll take it lol
@@JulianGreystoke I mean that in an extremely adorable way 😁 haha. Great channel, btw!!
Jenna gives a lot of good advice, especially if you are a plotter(which i'm not) but this advice(along side all her advice about pantsing) is just a poor take. She completely misunderstand the concept of "my character have a will of their own" it not i have no control of my character, it's i'm discovering my characters and they are diffrent from what i originally thought.
Character's preventing you from reaching a word count, might mean you keep writing something but it doesn't feel right for the characters so yeah i have writer's block.
I like her too. My favorite thing she said, after telling people what to do, went something like, "I can hear you say, 'But Jenna...' I need less of this," and moved her hands to look like mouths moving, "and more of this," and mimed typing.
Funny this should pop up in my recommendeds a week after I finally had enough and unsubbed from Jenna’s channel. The final straw for me was finally getting around to reading The Saviour’s Champion (after having her shove it down my throat for a quarter of every video she makes), and realising she’s trying to set hard and fast rules for other writers when her own writing is mediocre, at best.
You can really tell she has no idea how to write well-rounded characters. Everyone’s a boring stereotype/archetype, I kept hoping there’d be some twist or signs of depth later on and there was nothing. Just “everyone has, at best, two character traits, and nobody ever grows as a person”.
While I follow a basic framework for my stories, the characters themselves definitely do the work in filling that framework out into something more. I even have a detailed idea of who minor, background characters are, because even if it never comes up directly in the text, it can still inform how the wider story plays out.
I know it’s all very personal, individual stuff, but for me, the plot can be the most amazing, fantastical thing going, but if the characters are boring I’ll be bored. And Jenna prioritises rigid plotting over characterisation so aggressively the characters all end up cardboard cutouts. Not for me.
Jenna videos are getting pushed in the algorithm these days for some reason and I'm not gonna complain Haha. If you want the catharsis of watching someone (me) thoroughly dissect her books check out my read alongs 😉
You mentioning minor characters made me think about one in my story. He is only mentioned twice but he is at the mage school to improve his abilities to use magic in combat where he's from. You get the reason why he is at the Mage school when you first meet him. The second time you meet him is after the main character was almost killed. He is in full battle gear and magic ability. On his own he stands guard outside the main characters door. His action reflects how much the main character is respected in the story. Thanks for reminding about these important scenes.
I used to watch Jenna, I enjoyed her videos and often agreed with her advice, despite the fact that she made it sound like her advice was the be all end all of writing advice, I mean, people have their own preferences and process, but still agreed with a lot of what she said.
Then I tried to read Eve: The Awakening and realized in the first chapter that she doesn't follow her own advice. At all. It's been hard for me to enjoy her videos ever since.
Now it seems like her channel solely exists to promote her books under the guise of trying to give writing advice. She spends more time talking about TSC & TCC than she does giving content.
It's been awhile since I've had any strong takeaways from her videos. I think I've outgrown her. Plus, so many troupe videos and livestreams lately. I'm getting ready to read TSC with much trepidation. Maybe it will teach me what not to do.
Omg I love that hoodie!!
It's the best!
My characters change a lot with development...a lot of the characters I wrote to be huge jerks turn into some of my favorite ocs because I took the time to flesh them out.