I'm glad my 2020 ZeroSR doesn't use a 12v battery, instead has a DC to DC converter for all the electronics. I do run an electric jacket liner mostly at full power. The Zero is my commuter, 40miles one way thru the mountains. Depending on how fast I ride it uses 30-50% charge.
Nice! Not sure what the thinking is behind having or not having a 12v battery. I'm sure, with everything, there are trade-offs to each design decision.
I recommend the BMW i3 charger as a second LW charger, more expensive, but smaller and hasn’t failed. Thanks for being an early adopter, you get drama for your show and we learn what works and what doesn’t without having to be out in the cold.
I have the Webasto Go (used by Ford and other EV car makers), and is my default for adventures, I just wanted to give the EV Juicion a fair shake - obv it let me down!
The EVSE shouldn’t have to do anything with the 12V battery not charging. Looks rather like the DC/DC converter doesn’t work properly. Glad, you made it home. Hug your wife. 👍🏼
So the 12v maintenance is only effective up to (down to?) a certain voltage, and then it just doesn’t drip enough to pull it back up. I don’t know what that number is, hopefully someone at LW/HD can answer that. Riding chargers the 12v, EVSE chargers the bike. EVSE = 12v. 😆 just kidding. I think cold weather and all my heated gear + GPS likely did it. I’m pulling right at 10amps with everything on full power, and I was close to that. Add in the weather, and it’s a recipe for a dead batttery.
Most likely heated gear and GPS were pulling more than the bike could charge the 12v. Heated gear can pull a lot. Weird about that one EVSE unit not working. They are pretty simple. Check the pins and see if they are getting power, maybe the wire broke internally.
My 12 volt died while doing an update and it bricked the bike. Had to put it on a trailer and take it back to dealership to get fixed. The tech told me the 12 volts does not charge when plugged in, it charges from main battery while driving and there is no way to tell its charging outside of testing it by removing the seat. The tech mentioned Harley recommended to put the 12 volt on a trickle charger while updating software and when not using the bike for awhile.
The normal 12v drain has been resolved via firmware. I firmly believe my 12v failure is a combo of GPS/heated gear and the cold - especially the cold. I started out at 26F this morning, so little guy was strugglin' from the start
It’s the same for my electric tractor. The battery charger, by design, charges the big battery, but not the 12-volt. The 12-volt gets charged by the big battery while I’m running. If the 12-volt dies, I’m dead in the water, even if the main battery has plenty of power. I have to use a trickle charger to bring the 12 volt back to life, and back in business. If the 12-volt is deep discharged, though, not all trickle chargers will bring it back. Sorry if I’m repeating a bunch of stuff you already know - just some of my experiences.
@@AdventuresonZero my bike had the battery drain firmware update, they are still trying to recreate what happened. This is just a bad design. Tesla use to use something similar, but went away from it on new vehicles because they were having issues. They now only have to one main battery and derive all needed voltages from it. Livewire should look into doing teh same on future bikes.
@@brian32937 odd that Zero's new models have a 12v. Before it was a converter (?) that drew off the main pack. Energica's don't have a 12v either. I'm no engineer so who knows. The only time I had this issue with my LW1 was when I had the siren installed. It has a rechargeable 9v battery build in, and when it dies (from not being ridden or used) it pulls off the 12v, which is what was slowly draining mine when the bike was off. One day I was riding, and everything just died on me. Since that day, I've always kept a 12v on a trickle charger as an emergency back up!
Off topic: Have you tried Zero DSR/X? Or considered this bike before buying Del Mar? It has the same charging options, better range, and is better suited for off-road use. But is more expensive. Del Mar struggled to get over a small log with low ground clearance in your previous video. Maybe DSR/X would be better for BDR adventures? It would just be interesting to hear your thoughts about that bike.
I have not tried the DSR/X, but had a 2017 DSR before I bought my first LiveWire. I lost confidence in Zero with that motorcycle. While Zero's customer service was always really nice, responsive, and helpful - the company's repair procedures and policies suck. I had a motor bearing go out - $60 part, and they told me to replace the whole motor for $3k. They don't repair them, just replace them, and it wasn't under warranty. I ended up fixing it myself, but it took 3 attempts until I found the right combination of locktite compound and bearing. Not days after I fixed the motor, the charge tank went out. I was supposed to take my first big ride down to Key West in Florida. I got the charge tank replaced under warranty, and sold it for my first LW1. Needless to say, I don't see myself buying Zero anytime soon. I got burned by their build quality. Zero DSR/X would have had the same issues rolling up on that log, both have 19in front wheels. I'd still like to test ride now, to see how the fit and finish is.
me and the wife have had many harleys , choppers . fat boys dynas etc etc blah blah.i now only have 2 bikes. Livewire one (wife has the del mar) and a pan America. We knew going into this that we may have problems , but we will take that on when it comes. These livewires are awesome bikes for sure. Ben thanks for sharing you journeys with us all. You are one of the pioneers of the electric bikes as far as I'm concerned.
You're HD fanatics! ELW had some bugs as well when it first came out. LiveWire is full of smart people, they'll get all this stuff ironed out! Thanks for the kind words!
As a new person to EV's it is seriously complicated to figure it all out. Maybe you could make an episode where you go through your route planning. Is it just me, or is there no way to record your trip and use the navigation in the del mar app at the same time? What are you using to find these tesla destination chargers? are they in ABRP?
It may seem complicated at first, but it really boils down to one app - PlugShare. ABRP is good, but it's just to give you an idea as its accuracy is entirely dependent on perfect weather conditions (it also doesn't factor in elevation consumption). You can account for this with the planning settings, but even then it's not completely accurate. Experience with how the bike behaves under headwinds, elevation and ambient temps helps fill in the voids left by those inaccuracies with all of these EV apps. Yes, I'm locating all my charging locations in PlugShare, as it's a user generated mapping. As people find these stations in the wild, they plot them on the app. People can leave reviews, checkins, etc - so most of the time it's a dependable app. As far as I know, there is no way to record your ride while navigating.
@@brickrhymes984 I can't remember what the features are 🤣 but I think I have the paid for version. Very helpful if you have a LW1, but not for the Del Mar as ABRP does not have the vehicle profile yet
I have a Livewire one, and after seeing this I want to start carrying a extra 12V. Does brand name matter with battery or can i just buy whatever 12V that’s the right size?
As long as you don’t have anything connected directly to the 12v, you should be fine. This was the result of cold weather, heated gear maxed out, GPS, and the EVSE not working. I’m also a psycho and push the bike to its limits 😆 I think 99% of riders should be fine. I don’t know about battery brand, as long as it’s lithium 🤷♂️
Oh, man, I feel for you Ben. My Livewire One easily accomplished the ride to & from work all summer and autumn here in Sunny California: 40 miles each way. Battery to spare when I got home. Now that the temperatures have plunged into the high thirties (F) during my commute, I arrive to work with only 45% and have to find a charger in the cold. That is often fussy due to the cold. And refuses to charge my battery at full speed due to the cold. Keep on keeping on! Love your videos! You make me realize I really need to carry a spare 12v battery and toolkit with me when I ride long distances :)
Yep, I'm quite certain the cold has a big part in this video - plus I'm running full heated gear (jacket, pants, gloves, socks), GPS unit AND my phone. Little 12v battery just couldn't keep up!
That's another reason why AC only is stupid. If the onboard charger fails, you are fucked. If the DC charger fails, you just go elsewhere and use another charger. At least it's not your problem, much easier.
Both have problems. If it’s too cold, DC won’t charge because the cables are frozen. I can assure you that each (AC/DC) have their own advantages and disadvantages. Motorcycles are the tools to get the experiences we’re looking for - right bike for the right ecperience. 😉
I have been looking into a LvL 1&2 mobile charger, so hard to pull the trigger on that Webasto. So expensive. How much you think LiveWire saved on not including a lvl 1&2 charger with the bikes?
@@brickrhymes984 it does come with a level 1&2 - the Lectron EVSE can handle 110 & 240, just not a high amperage unit. The Webasto Go is expensive, however I think the peace of mind of it working and dependability is worth the price. It’s a robust unit.
@@AdventuresonZero Really the one you get will do LvL 2? The Lectron box i got says LvL 1 charging. I wonder why they wouldnt put lvl 1 & 2 charging on it?
@@brickrhymes984 look on the back, capable of 110-240v at 16amps. I’ve been told it’s best to not max out the components too often, but you can get 3.6kW off the issued charger
It's always a learning experience. I found for some reason Wattzilla EVSEs were not compatible with my Zero SR/S. So I ended up buying an adapter that takes J1772 input and 14-50 output so I could put my charge cable on it and then it worked. I wonder if the DC to DC converter has a rated capacity. Might be worth finding out and comparing to your heated gear wattage. My favorite portable EVSE is still the Grizzl-E Mini. And yeah, always carry the Tesla adapter. It's saved me a few times. ruclips.net/video/BMdobWf9ytQ/видео.html
Gah there’s so many companies making EVSEs it seems 😆 10 amps is the capacity, and I think I was just over that. Gear is 8 amps maxed out, GPS is just under 1 , and I don’t know what the phone pulls. There’s also the screen, lights, etc
@@RedBatteryHead not on the S2? Not sure what you mean. LW1 and S2 have P&A plugs to run up to 10A of aux accessories. LW1 USBC port is severely underpowered, S2 can handle nav, music and still bring the phone’s charge up. You have to keep the phone screen off on the LW1 to get the phone to charge up when running nav.
Heck of an adventure. It looks like the charging system for the 12V can't handle the load from all of your accessories. It doesn't help that Lithium batteries don't like the cold either.
I really think it’s the cold, ELW doesn’t have this issue. My theory is because of how close to the motor it is, a bit warmer. On the S2, it’s high up and not close to anything.
I'm glad my 2020 ZeroSR doesn't use a 12v battery, instead has a DC to DC converter for all the electronics. I do run an electric jacket liner mostly at full power. The Zero is my commuter, 40miles one way thru the mountains. Depending on how fast I ride it uses 30-50% charge.
Nice! Not sure what the thinking is behind having or not having a 12v battery. I'm sure, with everything, there are trade-offs to each design decision.
I recommend the BMW i3 charger as a second LW charger, more expensive, but smaller and hasn’t failed. Thanks for being an early adopter, you get drama for your show and we learn what works and what doesn’t without having to be out in the cold.
I have the Webasto Go (used by Ford and other EV car makers), and is my default for adventures, I just wanted to give the EV Juicion a fair shake - obv it let me down!
The EVSE shouldn’t have to do anything with the 12V battery not charging. Looks rather like the DC/DC converter doesn’t work properly. Glad, you made it home. Hug your wife. 👍🏼
So the 12v maintenance is only effective up to (down to?) a certain voltage, and then it just doesn’t drip enough to pull it back up. I don’t know what that number is, hopefully someone at LW/HD can answer that. Riding chargers the 12v, EVSE chargers the bike. EVSE = 12v. 😆 just kidding. I think cold weather and all my heated gear + GPS likely did it. I’m pulling right at 10amps with everything on full power, and I was close to that. Add in the weather, and it’s a recipe for a dead batttery.
Most likely heated gear and GPS were pulling more than the bike could charge the 12v. Heated gear can pull a lot.
Weird about that one EVSE unit not working. They are pretty simple. Check the pins and see if they are getting power, maybe the wire broke internally.
The actual box is working, but seems something in the handle isn’t working. Gives a ‘latch unplugged’ error on the LW1
My 12 volt died while doing an update and it bricked the bike. Had to put it on a trailer and take it back to dealership to get fixed. The tech told me the 12 volts does not charge when plugged in, it charges from main battery while driving and there is no way to tell its charging outside of testing it by removing the seat. The tech mentioned Harley recommended to put the 12 volt on a trickle charger while updating software and when not using the bike for awhile.
The normal 12v drain has been resolved via firmware. I firmly believe my 12v failure is a combo of GPS/heated gear and the cold - especially the cold. I started out at 26F this morning, so little guy was strugglin' from the start
It’s the same for my electric tractor. The battery charger, by design, charges the big battery, but not the 12-volt. The 12-volt gets charged by the big battery while I’m running. If the 12-volt dies, I’m dead in the water, even if the main battery has plenty of power. I have to use a trickle charger to bring the 12 volt back to life, and back in business. If the 12-volt is deep discharged, though, not all trickle chargers will bring it back.
Sorry if I’m repeating a bunch of stuff you already know - just some of my experiences.
@@AdventuresonZero my bike had the battery drain firmware update, they are still trying to recreate what happened. This is just a bad design. Tesla use to use something similar, but went away from it on new vehicles because they were having issues. They now only have to one main battery and derive all needed voltages from it. Livewire should look into doing teh same on future bikes.
@@brian32937 odd that Zero's new models have a 12v. Before it was a converter (?) that drew off the main pack. Energica's don't have a 12v either. I'm no engineer so who knows. The only time I had this issue with my LW1 was when I had the siren installed. It has a rechargeable 9v battery build in, and when it dies (from not being ridden or used) it pulls off the 12v, which is what was slowly draining mine when the bike was off. One day I was riding, and everything just died on me. Since that day, I've always kept a 12v on a trickle charger as an emergency back up!
Crazy how these big machines have the tiniest achilles heel
That was a rough day Ben. I'm looking forward to seeing that Teslatap in action.
Yep! Stupid battery nuts topped it off 😂
Off topic: Have you tried Zero DSR/X? Or considered this bike before buying Del Mar? It has the same charging options, better range, and is better suited for off-road use. But is more expensive. Del Mar struggled to get over a small log with low ground clearance in your previous video. Maybe DSR/X would be better for BDR adventures? It would just be interesting to hear your thoughts about that bike.
I have not tried the DSR/X, but had a 2017 DSR before I bought my first LiveWire. I lost confidence in Zero with that motorcycle. While Zero's customer service was always really nice, responsive, and helpful - the company's repair procedures and policies suck. I had a motor bearing go out - $60 part, and they told me to replace the whole motor for $3k. They don't repair them, just replace them, and it wasn't under warranty. I ended up fixing it myself, but it took 3 attempts until I found the right combination of locktite compound and bearing. Not days after I fixed the motor, the charge tank went out. I was supposed to take my first big ride down to Key West in Florida. I got the charge tank replaced under warranty, and sold it for my first LW1. Needless to say, I don't see myself buying Zero anytime soon. I got burned by their build quality. Zero DSR/X would have had the same issues rolling up on that log, both have 19in front wheels. I'd still like to test ride now, to see how the fit and finish is.
me and the wife have had many harleys , choppers . fat boys dynas etc etc blah blah.i now only have 2 bikes. Livewire one (wife has the del mar) and a pan America. We knew going into this that we may have problems , but we will take that on when it comes. These livewires are awesome bikes for sure. Ben thanks for sharing you journeys with us all. You are one of the pioneers of the electric bikes as far as I'm concerned.
You're HD fanatics! ELW had some bugs as well when it first came out. LiveWire is full of smart people, they'll get all this stuff ironed out! Thanks for the kind words!
As a new person to EV's it is seriously complicated to figure it all out. Maybe you could make an episode where you go through your route planning. Is it just me, or is there no way to record your trip and use the navigation in the del mar app at the same time? What are you using to find these tesla destination chargers? are they in ABRP?
It may seem complicated at first, but it really boils down to one app - PlugShare. ABRP is good, but it's just to give you an idea as its accuracy is entirely dependent on perfect weather conditions (it also doesn't factor in elevation consumption). You can account for this with the planning settings, but even then it's not completely accurate. Experience with how the bike behaves under headwinds, elevation and ambient temps helps fill in the voids left by those inaccuracies with all of these EV apps.
Yes, I'm locating all my charging locations in PlugShare, as it's a user generated mapping. As people find these stations in the wild, they plot them on the app. People can leave reviews, checkins, etc - so most of the time it's a dependable app.
As far as I know, there is no way to record your ride while navigating.
@@AdventuresonZero Do you think its worth it to pay for ABRP, or are you only using the free features?
@@brickrhymes984 I can't remember what the features are 🤣 but I think I have the paid for version. Very helpful if you have a LW1, but not for the Del Mar as ABRP does not have the vehicle profile yet
I have a Livewire one, and after seeing this I want to start carrying a extra 12V. Does brand name matter with battery or can i just buy whatever 12V that’s the right size?
As long as you don’t have anything connected directly to the 12v, you should be fine. This was the result of cold weather, heated gear maxed out, GPS, and the EVSE not working. I’m also a psycho and push the bike to its limits 😆 I think 99% of riders should be fine. I don’t know about battery brand, as long as it’s lithium 🤷♂️
@@AdventuresonZero well this made for good content. I appreciate youpushing them to the limit so we don’t have to!
I can assure you I don't like pushing it to zero, lol. Never a pleasant experience
watch out for those tar snakes in the summer...
🐍 😬😬😬
Oh, man, I feel for you Ben. My Livewire One easily accomplished the ride to & from work all summer and autumn here in Sunny California: 40 miles each way. Battery to spare when I got home. Now that the temperatures have plunged into the high thirties (F) during my commute, I arrive to work with only 45% and have to find a charger in the cold. That is often fussy due to the cold. And refuses to charge my battery at full speed due to the cold.
Keep on keeping on! Love your videos! You make me realize I really need to carry a spare 12v battery and toolkit with me when I ride long distances :)
Yep, I'm quite certain the cold has a big part in this video - plus I'm running full heated gear (jacket, pants, gloves, socks), GPS unit AND my phone. Little 12v battery just couldn't keep up!
Makes me want to get a 12 V battery just in case also. Not a bad idea at all.
I would get a tender - smaller, easier to carry, just leave it hooked up when not riding
That's another reason why AC only is stupid.
If the onboard charger fails, you are fucked.
If the DC charger fails, you just go elsewhere and use another charger.
At least it's not your problem, much easier.
Both have problems. If it’s too cold, DC won’t charge because the cables are frozen. I can assure you that each (AC/DC) have their own advantages and disadvantages. Motorcycles are the tools to get the experiences we’re looking for - right bike for the right ecperience. 😉
What is the name of the new charger we are not to get?
EV Juicion off Amazon
I have been looking into a LvL 1&2 mobile charger, so hard to pull the trigger on that Webasto. So expensive. How much you think LiveWire saved on not including a lvl 1&2 charger with the bikes?
@@brickrhymes984 it does come with a level 1&2 - the Lectron EVSE can handle 110 & 240, just not a high amperage unit. The Webasto Go is expensive, however I think the peace of mind of it working and dependability is worth the price. It’s a robust unit.
@@AdventuresonZero Really the one you get will do LvL 2? The Lectron box i got says LvL 1 charging. I wonder why they wouldnt put lvl 1 & 2 charging on it?
@@brickrhymes984 look on the back, capable of 110-240v at 16amps. I’ve been told it’s best to not max out the components too often, but you can get 3.6kW off the issued charger
picking up my LE today from the dealership, maybe i should purchase an extra 12v while im at it...
Never a bad idea. Keep in mind I’m running full body heated gear and GPS - in sub freezing temps 😆 always good to have a back up though
Im hoping you get 1 million subscribers
🤜🏻🤛🏻
It's always a learning experience. I found for some reason Wattzilla EVSEs were not compatible with my Zero SR/S. So I ended up buying an adapter that takes J1772 input and 14-50 output so I could put my charge cable on it and then it worked. I wonder if the DC to DC converter has a rated capacity. Might be worth finding out and comparing to your heated gear wattage. My favorite portable EVSE is still the Grizzl-E Mini. And yeah, always carry the Tesla adapter. It's saved me a few times. ruclips.net/video/BMdobWf9ytQ/видео.html
Gah there’s so many companies making EVSEs it seems 😆 10 amps is the capacity, and I think I was just over that. Gear is 8 amps maxed out, GPS is just under 1 , and I don’t know what the phone pulls. There’s also the screen, lights, etc
That was a pain. The DC outlet on LW1 works better.
What do you mean?
@@AdventuresonZero that the 12V aux you made on the LW doesn't drain the 12,V.
LW1 also doesn’t output as much power to the USB-C port, so comes at a cost of slowly charging the phone
@@AdventuresonZero you got that extra SAE plug on the rear, right?
That is not on the S2 for your gear.
@@RedBatteryHead not on the S2? Not sure what you mean. LW1 and S2 have P&A plugs to run up to 10A of aux accessories. LW1 USBC port is severely underpowered, S2 can handle nav, music and still bring the phone’s charge up. You have to keep the phone screen off on the LW1 to get the phone to charge up when running nav.
Heck of an adventure. It looks like the charging system for the 12V can't handle the load from all of your accessories. It doesn't help that Lithium batteries don't like the cold either.
I really think it’s the cold, ELW doesn’t have this issue. My theory is because of how close to the motor it is, a bit warmer. On the S2, it’s high up and not close to anything.
Aw maaaan! Why did they put a 12V battery on that bike instead of have everything go straight from a DC-DC??
Yeah not sure why the did that. I suppose they think if the bike runs out of the main pack, at least you can run lights/hazards
@@AdventuresonZero that makes sense. Maybe that's why the new Zeros have them too.
I dunno, didn’t know zero went that route now. Does energica have a 12v?
@@AdventuresonZero nope, no 12V battery on Energicas. If the DC-DC dies though, it's a lot harder to change than a battery 😂
Eesh! Maybe that's why everyone else has a 12v, lol. Based on my history and channel name, don't think I should get an Energize
I think your wife is the hero!
She is!
@@AdventuresonZero you got a good one!
@@howardluxhoj I do! That’s why she got a rang on it!