The reason I enjoy playing Tyranids is the following: - I play Guard. Its the most fun matchup in terms of mechanics, and thematics. - They have units in all weights, which makes the army very dynamic. From tiny gribblies to giant almost unkillable monsters. - Same variety also means that each weapon actually has a place against them. Lasguns and low strength low ap against hordes, mid strength and mid ap against medium infantry like warriors, heavy against monsters. It never feels like im wasting a weapon shot against them. - Their playstyle that is mid range --> melee is super fun to play against. And the synapsis linchpins are a fun mechanic. - They dont have gotcha rules. - They dont have super high saves available on basic troops. Even if you dont kill a lot of points, the fact that youre taking models just feels nice. - It feels like you can always find an in-lore reason to battle them. So it makes each battle a mini story of its own.
Better yet, you don’t really need to think of a narrative reason to battle Tyranids- you could always just say they’re trying to devour the planet you’re fighting on and you are trying to stop them! Especially since there could be more Hive Fleets the Imperium has no clue about roaming the galaxy.
I play Tyranids myself and all my opponents name most of these reasons as why they like fighting nids. "No wasted bullets" is so true. Having a guard player getting to remove models with every single gun on their tank is great!
I play guard too (and sisters). My brother owns nids. Definitely the best match-up I’ve come across so far. For sisters, I enjoy playing against necrons too! A friend has them and can get tiresome the endless necron waves but I’ve learned how to handle them without cheesy lists, just smart deployment and movement. My other brother has death guard and its also great matchup for both sisters and guardsmen.
As a Tyranid player, I disagree that we don't have gotcha rules. A lot of that is tied to the battleshock mechanic that I've found opponents get frustrated about. If I'm playing Vanguard Onslaught, I might be forcing 5 battleshock tests in one turn, not including shadow in the warp. I've seen a grown man on the verge of tears at his Magnus failing 2 BS tests in a row and get ripped to shreds by Warriors.
I love the look my opponents give me when they see me unpacking my eldar army when I arrive at the game. Then they quickly realise that I suck, so its ok.
Ironically he does mention this. Pretty much all the armies you face arent too terrible more often than not, sometimes it's busted rules or your army getting nerfed, which is annoying. But most often its the person.
Definitely this. It was easy to see who all the jerks were at the start of 10th with the hastily-built Eldar armies, saying stuff like "I'm not worried about losing out on the painting score."
I’ve heard a lot of people whine and complain whenever I play the Tyrannofex, claiming that “It’s way to good at killing tanks.” Honestly the second my nids could compete against heavy armor people started complaining. Seems they got used to our helplessness against vehicles and were in for a rude awakening 😂
For their cost, the defensive profile of most Nid monsters are great, and I think this is often overlooked by players, expecting them to have greater output instead/also.
That's a damn shame to hear considering we just got out of the cheese strat of Biomining for nearly a year and back to more fun playstyles too. Hopefully just butthurt asshats that are too used to being stupid durable against us even with middling tank profiles that are the only ones getting irritated.
@@PlayWii360tm 4 S8 Ap 0 Damage 2 melee attacks is hardly scary, and it’s not like the Tyrannofex is going to do anything else other than dumpster tanks every turn. It’s great at its one job, and I assure you that there are stronger tanks for around that point cost. If you are running a lot of armored vehicles it is definitely going to be a problem, but you can definitely still kill the Tyrannofex.
What's funny is that tyranids don't mind losing units as much. Opponents can kill a bunch of stuff and feel like they're doing a lot, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
@@WillMatteroI think that that really is the best part of playimg against tyranids, as the opponent can slaughter units and have fun, while the game can go either way despite this.
I'm still personally of the belief that to end the debate of knights being a 'real' faction is try and add the surf/peasent army for knights, and introduce dark mechanicum into dark knights. Maybe have detachment(s) that still help with all knight armies but also support a mix of knight and smaller chaf units.
Auspex Tactics, thank you for mentioning, "The player on the other side of the table makes so much difference than the exact army they're playing." I mostly play with my one friend, but he's basically a master level player. I'm probably somewhere between beginner and intermediate. I have never won a game against this friend, and we've played dozens of games, but he's a very good friend and helps me learn how to play better (gives me tips in-game!) so a good time is always had by all. We always like to hang out and discuss the game afterward! So despite my consecutive losing streak, I keep collecting and playing with this friend. So indeed, it is the players that make the experience moreso than the game, I think, at least for live versions. I sometimes wonder how it is to play 40k digitally. Either way, thank you for mentioning this wonderful element of the game, the other player.,
I have the same experience. The teacher of our group plays tournaments and we've never beaten him, gotten close, but it's still fun. Our friend group, between all 4 of us, collect half of the armies on this list though XD so we annoy each other with our schenanigans
Had this with a grey knights termi squad that a 5 man termi squad, a 3 man with arjac, 2 6 man thunder cavs all went into them and couldn't kill them off over 4 turns and just kept getting picked off
I really think the hyper "points dense" super tanky armies need more ways to "take damage" than just wounds. Not full titanicus/legions imperialis rules for knights but like, in titanicus/imperialis titan/knight army you have *more* models than a 40k knights/titanic army AND more granularity for those higher model counts. Having less models AND less complexity and less interactivity seems backwards!
I play Goblins in Age of Sigmar, one of my favorite 2k lists was just showing up with 200+ models and just swarming the objectives. I barely kill anything, and my opponents would get lost in the frenzy of killing 40+ models a turn. It was always a fun time, especially the look in their face when they realized they had tabled me, but they took so long to do so that I had double their score.
@@sc149 Lol turn knights into battletech with ammo locational damage and heat? I mean it goes against what they've apparently been trying to do in simplifying the game but it might give some balancing room for them to do more than stat check. granted 40k doesn't have as many turns so heat generation might be a bit wonky. Would be kindof fun tbh but if they didn't compensate itd just kindof kill the faction and thatd just kinda suck. The mechs are cool and pretty much the only reason i got into this at all.
I think this is why im happy im a ork player. I go in with a, "i have no idea whats gonna happen, but im gonna role lots of dice or die trying!" I dont win normally. I just like charging toward my enemy and seeing how far i can get and laughing at the funny outcomes.
Same. I remember beating a guy with a tournament list for his eldar and i was running a more casual list. He was so angry he didn’t play me for months after that
I think it's less of "armies" that are less fun to play against and more of a player issue. I've played against gunline armies had fun because it was a friendly game, and I've played against disorganized armies and had a miserable experience because the other guy was just an awful opponent.
I really hate playing against Space Marines but it’s because the player in my group always conveniently forgets his rules and likes to try to bend things in his favor.
I mean is it really much different than playing against knights or chaos knights? Like sure those can be rough if you’re not prepared, but I don’t really think it’s any worse than them because even if the wraith knight has a pretty solid defensive profile with his saves and with -1 damage his wounds are actually quite low for the cost. Idk for sure never played with or against wraith knights but seems the same as a knights list that leans more into big knights which most 2k pt armies should probably have at least somewhat of an answer for if they’re expecting to play vs random people in a somewhat competitive environment
That's exactly why I don't like facing any kind of Knight armies, especialy in 10th where they're more tanky. Generaly armor heavy skew lists sare unfun to play because large part of your army feels useless in these games.
I really don’t like ‘gotcha’ armies that have special rules that break the game that if you don’t know about before playing the game you essentially just lose.
That's on both you and the opponent frankly. If the opponent is hiding what their units do and you do not question it or look it up, you've done a disservice to yourself. I got burned too many times when I started the game by taking peoples' word for it. Particularly by a cheating guard player.
It's not supposed to happen. Player should inform the opposing players of the danger of certain move, you can't expect the opposing players to remember all your special rule
as a Dark Eldar player, we are accurately placed, right on the cusp of being annoying but not quite there (probably because there's like 3 of us lol, along with the 2 dudes that play the Genestealers)
In my experience Dark Eldar are really annoying to play against because they can kill everything they touch... until they stand still. Then you squash them like a mosquito.
The thing about Deldar in 10th is that they have alright datasheets (excluding Scourges…) that need their unique buff stacking to really start mowing through stuff. They’re a pretty interactive army, and with Skysplinter you just pop the transports and can kinda neuter their game plan.
As the second GSC player I feel like people enjoy playing us because they get to see hordes of enemies die. But if we're hot on our Cult Ambush that's when it gets a little tedious lol
The 'shooting barely does anything' when on custodes was so true for me. An entire shooting phase that basically did nothing..... and then I charged and made the mistake of forgetting they counter that too and make you pay(Pre-codex) ya custodes definetly up there as an annoying faction for me.
That's unfortunate, but understandable. I play Death Guard, Chaos Knights and a wee baby Necron army in the works. I love CK because they are easily some of the most fun to build, paint and look at. I get why they can be a raw stat check, but it's also fun stomping around. Granted I don't play optimally because I hate War Dog spam, and I love my Bigs out there.
Every army can be a challenge when their "thing" is done well, but by far and away more annoying than that is "that" sort of player. The "win at all costs" sort who can make any game be a boring grind of unfun tedium.
Lists which are intentionally crafted to prevent engagement/interaction from your opponent, which are almost always skew lists. Knights, "Jail" lists, etc.
@KnightRighteous essentially, it's a list that moves up the board fast and pretty much keeps you in your deployment zone. For example, "Wolf Jail" is the Stormlance 3 Bricks of TWC that move, advance and charge and keep you stuck for a few turns.
as an greater good enjoyer, i would like to see my faction become a true xeno empire, with several playable races. They literally have unlimited potential: you can create Halo-like brutes focused in melee, more vespids or kroot, and they already have psychic races in the empire. GW can pull whatever they want with the tau empire, but they don´t (i also like to fill the air with bullets tho)
Idk man, I hear this opinion from time to time about different tau races. But I never really vibed with this, I am here for battlesuits and dudes with plasma rifles; not fucking kroots. And I am pretty sure that my feelings are shared among many, riptide is the bestseller for a reason.
I used to have a Tau army, when people made fun of Tau for being Gundam I'd be like, yeah, and it's cool as shit. Had some Kroot and Vespid but they aren't cohesive so they didn't really fit the vibe. Thing about Halo is you see them visibly using the same weaponry because it's a game, on tabletop it doesn't work, also they aren't fighting in formation or anything. Truth is Gue'vesa would get the point across.
They tend to play very cagey and then you get counter punched super hard for trying to be the aggressor. Just very difficult to come out ahead in trade.@@JackDespero
I agree with you. I find them to be the most irritating army to face by far. Not because they're difficult, but because it's such a dull thing when your opponent goes: "Nuh uh! I play my _miracle dice,_ so you can't hurt her! Nyah nyah!". Like, this is a game about rolling dice. It kills all of the tension when somebody can just ignore a dice roll. Yes I know Eldar can do it too, but they can't make them as fast, and they've been heavily nerfed now and in the past. Sisters have just been rolling with it since they came back. But to be fair, looking at the state of the rules in 10th overall, I can't foresee GW managing to undo anything with heavy nerfs with the teams they have now. You need to make the rules _fun_ before you try to balance them. Right now armies have so little in terms of fun rules that the only reason we have balance is because the units are homogenising into the same sorts of stats across different factions.
@@DeathInTheSnow Whats worse than making saves into auto-6ing damages... The glass cannon faction having 4+ invulnes and just how imbalanced miricle and fate dice feel sometimes i just dont like playing against sisters or Eldar
It's not an edition of 40k if people don't say they hate playing against Eldar. Most of the people I talk to usually cite fate dice as the primary reason they hate them, but now apparently Sisters are 5th most liked. Big "Our glorious miracle dice" versus "Their unfun fate dice" energy.
I don't think people like playing against nids because people are newbies .... that feels like a weird jump to me. Everyone I know likes playing against them because they're a very 'traditional' narrative enemy. Like starship troopers - kill the bugs type vibe. Like it's just very fun to pitch your space knights against quintessential alien bugs
I feel like a drop keep wouldnt work for a 2k point game. It'd have to be absolutely massive, crazy expensive, and cost a lot of points unfortunately. But yeah ngl men at arms and some intermediate chassis to bridge the gap between armiger and questoris would really make knights less of a skew army.
@@aqz7603 Honestly, lets bring down the armigers' toughness and points so people feel like they are more interactive. Knights do need some men at arms though. Some deep strikers, screeners, maybe a repair team. Units purely to support the imperial knights. The inquisition is just a band aid.
@@zer0prototype5 My solution has just been to run kitbased voidsmen, I basically just took the new Bretonnian foot knights and gave them the heads and arms/guns of Skitarii, they're pretty fun
@@playsroguealot6911 my army is power rangers themed. I 3d printed some ranger teams to scale and those are my voidsmen. I also have my Inquisitor Zordon as just a dreadnought coffin.
@@zer0prototype5Armigers are fine, they don’t need nerfs. Knights only feel bad to play against if you’re not bringing enough anti-tank in your lists, but vehicles are prominent enough in 10th that if you were doing that you probably weren’t running a good list. People just dislike skew lists
I'm putting together a Kroot army right now, I wonder what people would think of playing against them? I'm guessing most people would be happy to, for the novelty and also because they're kinda like watered down Orks or Tyranids 😄
Knights feeling like a stat-check is really in line for playing against them. If they go first and you are not in complete cover, whatever's visible is getting deleted if it's smaller than a tank and if it's a low terrain board 1/3 to 2/3rds of an army getting deleted in one firing action does kinda suck.
I play knights and it got very tiring for both my opponents and myself to play with the stompy bois. They are a stat check army, either your opponent can deal with them and will do so by turn 2-3, or they cant and you will reliably shoot them off the table. When that sort of dynamic becomes apparant, people will just pack as much anti-tank into their army as they physically can, and at that point you have just wasted your time playing the game. They are very good looking models, but are not healthy for the game as a standalone faction as they are now
This was me circa 6th/7th, when everybody and their dog was playing Marines and I was the only one who wasn't. I got very sick of power armour for a while!
Tau player here, and I have an idea for a new gimmick. Seeing as how every single person has really really hated literally everything we've ever done (Jump-shoot-jump, drones, really big guns, etc) I have this great idea for a NEW thing that Tau could do to make them good without pissing everyone off: FUCKING MELEE. JUST LET US DO IT. Like seriously why not?!
While I haven't had anyone complain about my very memey Kroot force, I agree with you 100%. At the very least give the larger battlesuits some melee options like a wrist mounted version of Votan plasma blade looking weapons.
We have them. They’re called Rampagers, and they’re a counterpunch unit. Tau’s focus will always be ranged, and it should stay that way. If we get melee units they should be priced at a premium for inclusion in the shooting army or something like Rampagers.
@@im_flat See, I think the army as a whole would be much better off and more fun to play and play against if we just gave up on being 'the shooting army.' Our guns are not that good. Our entire army mechanic is using multiple units to get our ballistic skill AS GOOD as Marines, the averagest army.
Something I always thought was weird was that the tau in lore don’t just gunline it, they utilize high mobility units along with slower support units like broadsides. And then I see players just stay still and kill anything in two salvos like it’s the 1,600s
I find the hatred towards knights and custodes so fascinating from a gameplay perspective. Itd be interesting to see what armies people specifically play themselves when voting what thier most hated army is. I think peopel dont admit it but a lot of players think they are experienced and skilled and when they get stomped by knights and custodes, they assume the opposing player is almsot using a cheat card. People seem to forget these armies have glaring weaknesses which keep them from the very top. They are elite models and 40k is an objective based game. Eapecially now, neither knights nor custodes are as scary as they were in the beginning of tenth. This applys to aeldari as well
I just find them boring because they feel like they're always the same. One is T6, 2+ Save that chops you up (unless credit card suffered greatly in which case you might face the dreadnought or the tank as well) and the other one is just a few big robots with various guns. Amazing models but monotonous to watch and play against.
Well said. (though I do think optimized aeldari were pretty broken, especially early on) People complain about ik making most of their units feel worthless. Fair. your S9 under weapons won't do much. Their new role is objectives, screening, and nuisance charges. Everyone is still playing as long as you didn't forget your anti-tank or have no idea how to play the game without killing.
@@HHWorldspawn so what I'm hearing is gw needs to expand the knight range. Or knights need a mechanic so the other player feels like the accomplished something even when they manage to wound but not kill a knight.
@@zer0prototype5 a lot of armies have high output shooting at low str or good close combat which both can topple knights really fast... people tend to forget theres not a lot of knights with good saves up close
@@zer0prototype5 I suppose blowing up robot parts like legs, arms etc would be kinda cool although I was thinking more along the line of expanding the range just so that if you're up against a few knight players it won't feel like you're facing the same army list over and over again while also giving the knight players more options and ways to play which would be a win for everyone I think. For comparison, if you face Guard players it's not that uncommon for their armies to be quite different as one could be mechanized, 2nd is infantry, 3rd guy loves tanks and the 4th is a combined arms, 5th is Scions and the 6th guy is running super heavies and even within those categories their are many ways to create a list and even if two identical lists show up (net lists etc) they can still be different models as one could collect Tallarn while the other is running Steel Legion models. Granted that GW removed those old models and never gave them new plastic kits but still!!
World Eaters are a simple army at first glance that actually takes a fair bit of finesse to pilot successfully. They’re a board control army more than a “run at you” list like pre-nerf greentide or Bully Boyz.
The new Bringers Of Flame detachment for Sisters is very fun to play casually, not very fun to play against competitively. I run them myself and enjoy the punching-up ability they get, but when I play someone going for a 'competitive' slant on the list, if they get turn 1 with even half-decent deployment, they're shooting you off the board before you can do anything about it.
As an Eldar player, there is something I find interesting. Obviously hate for factions largely revolves around whichever ones recently had stupidly OP rules, and on that basis Craftworld Eldar objectively deserved some hate. There will also always be people who dont like the inherent playstyle of the army. But what I find with Eldar is that a lot of people really, really hate them for their lore, which is far more unusual - and confusing for me, as that is what I like most about them.
I've noticed a lot of people hate factions that aren't the most evil thing ever. Can't tell you how many times as a T'au fan I've heard "They make the Imperium look bad"
The people that hate the Eldar for their lore are also the same people that think the Imperium are unironically the good guys of the setting, though, so their opinion doesn’t matter too much.
It’s also like…Eldar aren’t an easy army to pilot. Mistakes are punished heavily because your units are as sturdy as tissue paper. Joe Schmoe in your local Escalation League isn’t winning LVO with his casual lists.
@@oh7mak people heavily identifying with the Imperium, thinking they are the 'good guys', or even more confusing, that they are 'us' is really, really weird. This is sci-fi/fantasy fiction, nothing in it directly represents 'us' and if the Imperium really did exist I think people underestimate just how alien it would feel in it's way of thinking and values. Although given the extreme religious authoritarianism afflicting certain very prominent parts of the world at the moment I suppose it makes a certain depressing kind of sense.
Honestly I find it's player skill > than the army itself that dictates people's enjoyment. Playing against someone who knows their army inside and out, it's strengths and weaknesses and how to best employ the former while preventing an opponent from exploiting the latter. You're going to wallop anyone who isn't of the same level in most games. An example I'll use from personal experience is my Tau. I know the army inside and out and most opponents come at them with a 'I just need to get you in melee' mindset. Which granted; sure that is their on paper weakness, but knowing the army like I do; I know how to screen effectively, apply their movement and ensure you will never make it successfully into melee without paying dearly for it. Oftentimes this leads to opponents getting caught in the midfield and being utterly crushed. Instead now I play other armies that I am less experienced with and reserve my Tau for people who are specifically seeking to challenge that army knowing what it's capable of. I tend to get closer games this way which is more enjoyable for everyone involved.
It’s so fucking funny people just made their minds about tau and don’t care if they’re strong or not, they just internalised that tau are hated so hate to play against it
I think it's telling the "most favored armies to play against" are the ones typically considered easy to beat. So many people hate being challenged it's pathetic. Now, I'm not saying that's the only reason, some people here put it perfectly in the other direction: they like playing some of them because it lines up with the theme of their own army and makes an almost cinematic battle, that I applaud.
Just based my last brigand for 12 dogs and 4 nurglings list. Let the hate come. My local meta has everyone bringing the strongest thing…but we still get along and haven’t had a bad game yet.
Guard have simple mechanics really. Most of their buffs and strategems are used in their turn and are straight forward. Their basic troops are easy to squish, their tanks are tough but manageable. There's some other faction vehicles that are normal that have almost as much shooting as a Baneblade.
The worst I've ever done was playing a match against our local Catachan player in 3rd edition who was complaining that nobody would play against him using the jungle rules. I had to proxy the army because there was no way at the time that I could afford it. It was an Iyanden army. You can imagine how it went.
I enjoyed playing against Orks recently. I play imperial guard and run non skew lists, so i have an tough time against World Eaters players who typically admit their army doesn’t function without Angron, who will turn one smash a lot of my best stuff, die and then return with a 400+ points refund for the army, and it can happen multiple times despite guard reinforcements being a one time thing now doesn’t balance out that swing much. Another challenge is Votann who make a mockery of a lot of targets. They are a fun army to see on the board, but the ability to mass shoot a bunch of dice, some with anti vehicle 2+ into a super heavy, hit on 2s and wound on 5s with their weakest mass firepower is a lot to get used to. My main opponent is a Votann player however so I’ve sort of become used to it. It’s still fun to play both, but each time it reminds me why I’m glad I keep out of the more cut throat tournament scenes, as opposed to the friendly games I usually play in.
People like playing against weak armies or what they can kill. You can pretend as you want, but you( community and players) want to see enemy models off the table and not scoring points. Points just digits, enemy models are blood and ashes. So it is vicious circle. Maybe wombo combo melee armies are good in this case. Coz melee player can blame only himself for playing not optimally.
Knights are great. Turns are pretty quick, not too many rules, and actually fairly simplistic. I can see how playing against them could be a feel bad moment, but they aren’t invincible, right?? Buy and paint 3-4 knights and have a great time…
I don’t have any armies I don’t like playing against. I just like playing. If I had to pick though I’d say admec and gsc only because I’ve never played either one and I have no clue what they can do. The game would be long for me cuz I’d be learning as I play.
GSC is pretty straightforward, they deep strike and they have a lot of units that aren’t super powerful individually so depend on volume. It’s why they’re “THE” horde army.
Weird thing for me is, I can imagine some people just hating playing against the one same army, all the time, and blaming the faction, in part, for having one ideal way to play, and thus having to fight that every weekend. Back when Necrons basically were all HCL, teleporting around C'Tan, or Ork Meganob spam, and it's just what's there because it is what's meta-popular, and your friend found a list. I say that because I can imagine someone not wanting to play "Bob's Golden Banana Boys" again, but considering hoe expensive 40k can be to collect, and the time sunk into assembling it, many players might only have feasibly one army, with mostly one way they plan to run it.
I've got back in the hobby with Thousand Sons. I know they are perceived as overpowered, but I enjoy playing them and like them visually and am happy with my painting on them. I play at tournaments and enjoy the game at that level, independent of my own success, and I am usually very upfront with certain things that might catch my opponent off guard or they might not be aware of. Still, whenever I show up with my army, the usual reaction is some kind of annoyed eyeroll or comment in that regard. So, while I really like my army, I get negative reaction based on them and whenever I win, there is some level of imposter syndrome going on. I'm thinking about getting into a second army, specifically that people like playing against. I thought about orks, since that has been the "fun to play against" army for as long as I remember, but I don't like them visually. I am surprised to see Tyranids up so high, that might be a consideration for a second army, as I like how they look a lot.
I would love to see your take on how Daemon Allies would be best to implement, especially for Word Bearers. I used to love the MoP's incuresion spell and summoning strategem back in 8th
I like playing Necrons I do not like facing 6 units that have 4+ invuln, t11, 5+ fnp with regenerating wounds and insane damage outputs when I'm fielding 1 unit with that kinda profile
So I've been playing for about a couple of months till now, and from what I can tell about fighting certain armies, one one hand it's the army itself, but on the other it can be the player themselves that don't make it fun. I have had many times I've played against someone and had a good time, cause we're just talking to each other about the hobby, making jokes about the situation and in general just having fun. I remember playing twice against the same guy who plays space wolves, and he was pretty chill. Another time recently against Sisters of Battle, and a Black Templars army that had some nicer dust effects for his tanks. and don't even get me started on how nice it is to see a Imperial guard army that's painted so damn well, which is why I like asking my opponents if I can take pictures of their armies and share them to my friends and family to show their talent. These people made the hobby feel nice. But then there's the other side... Before I begin, I will say that I mostly play Necrons, though I don't have much of a serious list. Just pretty much got models I enjoy, like the immortals, a full unit of Skorpekhs and a Lord with them, and even Illuminor and a Doomsday Ark (still don't have a c'tan yet, though I do want the Void Dragon, though I kinda want to save up for the Silent King). Won't go through the whole list but you get the idea. RIght now I'm trying to figure out and play a new army since I want and like variety, currently being a big Tyranid list over 2kpts I've been building up, along with a 1kpts Thousand Sons list I'm wanting to practice painting with. There have been a few times I've fought against people that either are just boring, or their army is just not fun to play against. There is the custodes player that when I first played against, the army was so frustrating to fight. Nevermind that one unit that Deepstrikes and has a save of 2+, and a tank on one health that just wouldn't die (that was more dice luck I suppose? But still.) They also had the audacity to complain about horde armies, and how he was glad they can only heal once with stratagems cause they seem 'bullshit' to fight, whilst he plays an army that lore-wise is literally hopelss to fight against cause they're op as fuck. I did end up winning, but I was so frustrated, salty and tired, it didn't feel like a win at all. Then there was the Aeldari. I never realised how bad their Fate dice could be until I faced it myself. It's so stupid that when you finally hit their tank, that one shot can just end it, and they just pull a dice out of their ass and say 'nuh uh'. Just removes the whole 'the dice tells story' thing, cause they can just do that shit. I only won cause they underestemated me, and my Skorpekhs. But don't even get me started with their boring attitude, especially after charging him with said Skorpekhs and he says ' actually, you can only use the 3 at the front'. Fuck you. If I'm charging you, they're all fighting. How stupid would it be if an ork unit of 20 got a charge, and they said only that one ork model can fight cause the others are 1 inch away? For the record, I don't care if that's how it's done in competitive, this is casual play. Hell, I'd even say to my opponent as well it's fine to have all that unit in the fight, cause it's fun! To hell with GW's boring rules (not implying I don't like to follow the rules, but when it's just dumb shit like that, I draw the line.) But the worst one out of them all, was against this Imperial Guard player. Just to clarify, I don't hate Guard armies. As I said earlier with the painting of them, and facing one of my pals at the store with one, I LOVE the Imperial guard, gameplay-wise and Lore-wise. But my god this guy's list was just... So I usually set up my army at the side whilst I'm waiting for my oponnent to arrive, or just in general so I don't have to struggle getting them out when I'm deploying. When he arrived, he had at least 2 boxes with all of his IG stuff (he wasn't gonna use all of them of course, it was a 2kpts match). He also mentions that not far from my town he mostly goes to play competitively, so it's obvious he's way more experienced than I am. Of course not that it's a problem since I've played against more experienced people before, though they're usually just chill and bring a casual list. As usual I bring every Necron model I have cause they're literally all I have, by the time we've deployed all our units, his side was almost entirely tanks. He had at least a mortar team camping behind a building where an objective was, and as well had 1 infantry unit or like 5 guys (don't remember what they were, but they definitely weren't Guardsman.) So pretty much a pretty competitive list. From what I can tell, he looked at my models, and brought out what was good against them. I could tell cause I saw what was left in his box, and there were a bunch of Kriegsman and other infantry units. So basically it boiled down to me trying to shoot something, just for it to do nothing, since almost all of my list only had at least -1 or -2 ap, except for the DDA, Doomstalker and Lokhust Heavy. It wasn't even turn 2 where almost everything was killed. Warriors? Gone. Skorpekhs? Gone. Immortals? Half a unit. Just s shit load of tanks still alive and camping an entire half of the board. I was already annoyed and miserable, and I knew how this was going to go, so I conceded since I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of a real win. You can say that's 'toxic' but to clarify I don't hate losing, but when it's something like that, it just makes the hobby unbearable to play. It's horrible when all you play is casual, and some competitive sweat comes in and floors you, and has the audacity to say 'i'm playing for fun'. I'm sure you are pal... I even talked about it to others and how frustrating it way, but all I got back were things like 'it's just toy soldiers' and 'it's just how it is', just pretty much making me feel like I was just some kid having a tantrum, and that I just have to deal with it cause that's how the game is. Which almost drove me away from the hobby at how these people were just fine with that type of behavior and play style. It was that match that made me realise how much I hate 10th compared to the other editions I looked up. Just fishing for 6's, lack of flavor and boring list builds, though that last one is mostly the player issue itself. It made me realise how the only reason I enjoy 10th was because I wasn't even focused on it when I played with people where we were having a good time. But when you're mainly focusing on the match, that was when I didn't enjoy it, winning or not. But maybe I am the problem, idk. But in conclusion as I said before, I think it really does depend on who you're playing against, and their attitude in general. Cause you can either face someone who's chill and has fun, making a new friend you can play against and talk about the hobby a lot, or face competitive sweats who build annoying lists and are just boring to be around, making you not want to play against them and driving you away from the hobby. Apologies for the long ass post, but I just wanted to get out mu thoughts on this topic in general.
I'd love for the big knights to get some points cuts so that Chaos Knights are more varied in what works. Bumping up wardog cost would just drop their options to have support, but getting a titanic that is work the cost means that you would actually want to sacrifice a few dogs. I mostly play casual 1000 point games thought so maybe having a single knight works somewhat when it's a 2000 point game but I feel like even then I'd rather have 3 wardogs than a knight. If something other than the abominant got closer to or even below that 400 point mark they would feel more useful, especially with some of the other hard hitting tanks out there for other factions sometimes being 250 or 350 points for insane weapons and tankyness for the points.
My local group hasn't really picked up tyranids in 10th so I'm so used to playing against 40 mortal wound maleceptors from 9th. They all sold off their nids once the winrates dropped below 80%
This is why I’m happy I play astras. No matter how much the meta changes and which armies rise and fall typically I can put something on the table that can hurt anything on the other side
Back through late 5th/early 6th I was probably one of the more frustrating players in our group to play in (Tau). I utterly refused to try and counterpick my opponent (lists could easily go months without anything more than minor tweaks) and would happily run the same lists vs orks as I would vs grey knights, or eldar, etc. On the other hand, in any points scale below 1500 points there were 0 units that weren't either vehicles, crisis suits or units embarked in transports, and even above 1500 points it was a few small units of pathfinders and broadsides while the manouverable aspects of the army still continued to grow. As the Tau codex got older and older (especially late 5th) playing into the old cover saves for tau vehicles to make them hilariously resilient at range, and allow to function as extra LoS blocking for crisis suits and just deny the enemy a chance to engage on their terms via hit and run and picking them apart.
Yep. I'm IK player and 3 out 5 friends with whom playing at TBS just don't want to play against my army. Just because of T10-T12 walkers. "There's only one way to play - tailoring or suffering" or "It's impossible to play against ur freaking walking tanks!" they say. And I'm sure that in our narrative play" they'll kill me first or just ignore all around the game
I doubt it's "just because of T10-T12 walkers" but a list that's 90% armor where you have to put out 10-20+ wounds before you actually feel an effect. Other armies, you at least feel it as models are removed. Other armies tend to not have 3+/5+ for the lowest-cost unit. Another commenter elsewhere lamented that fighting Knights can just be predicted before the battle begins by comparing lists. I don't think it's true across the board, but it's been a good metric in my own group
@@miker292 it's super faction dependant too, like my GSC actually have no way to kill a big knight (or probably even armigers) efficiently now cause we only have two sources of S10+ and they're both on HQs with low volume of attacks
@@mattiase204 Playing knights doesnt make you a "that guy" player lmao. imagine thinking that playing a faction you enjoy is equivalent to all of the other shit associated with the "that guy" archetype like cheating or bad hygiene
I think what people forget about Knights (speaking as a CK player) is that knights REALLY struggle against large amounts of units. Played a 1000 point game against my friend's T'au list that I built for him with my War Dog Pack. Did he win? No. But through sheer quantity of firepower and the massive railguns in the back, he got almost all of my War Dogs down to 3-5 wounds in one turn. It wasn't even a list made to fight a certain army, it was supposed to be a balanced list that was centered entirely around Farsight
For me it's the Aeldar. Mainly because the most experienced player in my friends group mains them. That army always seems to have a counter to whatever I am doing. "Oh you hit me with a tachyon arrow? Im gonna use this 4 I rolled earlier for my invul" "Oh your deep striking? Free overwatch" "Oh you moved within 9 inches of me for a charge? Im gonna walk 6 inches away so you cant charge now" "Oh I hit you with a bright lance. Im gonna use this 6 I rolled earlier" "Oh you got precision? The unit is T7. Good luck wounding me" "Oh no. Im out of 4s, 5s and 6s. Im gonna turn this 1 into a 6"
There is a necron player at my wargaming group that uses the ctan nightbringer (and is also generally annoying) who struggles to find anyone who wants to play against him
I'd have much prefered Knight if the codex had been written to be a proper force, with support troops choices to give the army other ways to fight. I like my BFGRs, but I can understand if people think my armies are a bit one note.
This is exactly how knights should have been implemented, it would make the army so much less annoying. Sadly I think it was a sales decision - how do we appeal to people who only like big models and don't want to have to paint infantry? As per usual, letting short term sales drive decisions rather than going with the longer- term option of designing a good game.
What still can’t understand (after 40 years) is why in a game that has a Sci Fi setting that guns are so unpopular, and there has always been a melee bias. To the point where the only faction that forgoes melee is unpopular because of it, even though it’s impossible for them to field an efficient viable melee contingent. Have I missed something?
Its strictly the rules. Shooting has no trade off in the way melee does. If i charge you theres a chance you swing back on my own turn. Shooting is "safe" but also uninteractive. It could be fixed by bringing in HH style reactions or alternating activations but for now its just the way it is
@@ac833 interactive versus non interactive is in my opinion a bit subjective. For me melee is non interactive as the the Tau may as well not have any attacks for the good does them. So the fight phase is about as interactive as the shooting phase is for my opponent, neither of which I mind, as I don’t see why something is considered better because you get to roll some dice too. What I am seeing here is people wanting to play AoS with 40K models.
@@ASBOmarc you can call it subjective but you'd be wrong. It is objectively true that combat trades whereas shooting doesn't. Trying to imply that just because your data sheets aren't built for damage output doesn't override the fact that if I charge on my turn and your unit survives you have an opportunity to return damage whereas in your shooting phase I do nothing but roll saves and remove models.
@@ac833 quite, I also argue shooting is interactive, you step out of cover and don’t kill your target you are going to get shot back, in the same way that if you use a fully tooled up melee unit against an unit that happens to be able to able to fight but doesn’t specialise in it, then the most likely outcome is that you destroy the unit on the charge before it has a chance to ‘interact’. Whether it’s interactive or not there is a huge bias on melee, which although I accept is the nature of the game I will never agree with as it’s supposed to be a Sci Fi game not a fantasy game with a Sci Fi skin.
@@ASBOmarc dude I get it you're a tau player and no one likes to play with you. You're a one phase army that takes no skill to play and most people find it boring to stand there watching you roll dice. Good luck
People have hated playing Thousand Sons for 20 years, although the reason changed. Back in the day their having 2 wounds (which was very rare) but not having much of an additional cost to them made them horrendously tanky.
As an Aeldari main, I'm very conflicted between feeling disappointed that my army is so disliked to play against, and simultaneously a wicked sense of glee that it's so far down. I personally don't play very "skewy" lists, as I dislike that whole powergaming mindset. I think a lot of the current dislike of the faction comes from some early edition, hyper skewed lists that were obscenely powerful and rightfully nerfed into the dirt, but some of y'all ought to start taking into account that for the past 4-5 months or so, Aeldari have been on the lower end of 50% winrates, and falling ever since. If you still feel like it's some kind of unbeatable, never fun to play against army then it might just be a you problem.
FULLY agreed. The stigma with Eldar has gotten so bad that I’ve almost just had to shelve mine. Even after I show them the nerfs and the winrates, they just say “yeah, but that’s different”. It’s awful.
@@breadmoment7018The playerbase holds onto negative sentiments for very long stretches of time. See: Tau’s placement in this and the long-held belief they just shoot you off the board
I played a 5 C'tan Hypercrypt list today (including a Tesseract Vault) and it was...tough. I was playing Custodes and he could just delete stuff with very little I could do in response. I also play Necrons, so I knew they were strong, but it was bonkers how tough the C'tan were!
C'tan are the only thing in game which annoy me. They have every single defence layer in the game. Toughness, invun, decent wounds, FNP, healing, half damage. 6 defensive layers. Same for wraiths, very annoying, they have an effective 54 wounds for the unit if you kill them in one shooting phase (basically not happening) if you only managed to kill 2 they go up to something like 75 effective wounds and it goes up by 25ish every time that happens 😅
I have a very tank-heavy Tau composition which is not easy to kill. Especially since they are generally able to kill everything that threatens the tanks most right away. Also, when I got my Ghostkeel, the guy I played against was pretty annoyed about the Ghostkeel being able to just negate the damage from an attack, meaning it wasn’t worth targeting with a heavy las weapon, and instead he chipped away at it with bolters.
Me watching this as a an Imp Knights player 💀 (also planning on playing around with Chaos a bit, just to spice things up) I actually lose more games than I win oddly enough but that’s probably because I’m new to 40K and I don’t have many knights and I’ve been playing more Horus Heresy than 40K lately and HH is brutal if you don’t have a MASSIVE army
As a CK player who mostly plays the big boys, I lose like 90% of my games. I still get a ton of enjoyment out of them as most of the time my enemy's lists are in shambles by the end of it all. I've only really had 2 times where I wasn't having a good time against another player. The first was when I once played against the pre-nerf Eldar, where I flat out couldn't do anything to his list as he effortlessly deleted my big boys with those cracked Wraith Cannons, but that was a blame the army situation. The other time was some whiny kid with a necron army who kept complaining about my knights being tough as his Nightbringer just slowly killed them all. I really hate it when people complain about their Opponent's army being some sort of "OP" whilst they're actively winning the game
I don't really like playing against either variety of Knight EXCEPT for a couple games where I think the "Knight" player was secretly an Inquisition player in disguise because they were maxing out their Imperial Agents henchmen option. Those were fun, mainly because I could actually kill stuff, and because they could actually contest my objective play. Very nice. 10 out of 10, would play again.
One thing I haven't mentioned when I last posted, mostly cause I forgot xD T Sons are a faction I really like but have bad experience playing against. They have so many shenanigans that it's easy to feel the got you factor if you don't play them often. I played them a few times at local tournaments and I never got a decent front up explanation of what they could do from the other players
Everyone at my shop disliked playing the Imperial Knights. It's pretty casual, and most of the people didn't even use terrain markers for ruins so they'd get blasted off the board by turn 2. I tried explaining to others you need to play points and use terrain to block sight lines, but even in that case it doesn't feel like you're winning even when you are point wise because of how tanky they can be.
Seems to me, that people don't like playing against strong armies in general. Everybody sounds like they want to be the ones coming to the table and plow through hordes of easy enemies.. yet they themselves avoid bringing strong units... For me personally I love the challenge.. bring the baddest, strongest most OP army you have and I will try to overmanuever, overstrategize or-whaterver you..
Everyone loves being the strong army, I love versing them as it helps improve my strategy and playing style. Always good to beat that guy that stomped you 5x in a row, even better when it isn’t a fluke lol.
Knights has been "Tau" in this context for years. I thought having 6-8 models would be economical and easy to transport, which is unfortunate for knights players, as coming up to a LGS and when asked what army you have, prompts you to pack back up and head home.
@@RevanR Yeah Armigers and Wardogs are the Chaos Cultist from 8th ed. The weenies in the codex are just clearly mathematically superior in every way to the guys the codex is named after. They'll likely fix it by just straight up not allowing you to take them - offering no buffs in return, and then it's "see you next edition"
I have to say it often feels kinda bad in warhammer as a timmy.. (if we use MTG terminology).. I want to play with big beefy stuff.. no matter if I play my knights, my ironhands that only run tanks or my monster tyranids.. and I do get sighs quite often right when they see my army.
Here's my complete list of armies that i hate playing against. 1) Any army I lose against. 2) Refer to number 1. 3) This is a joke losing is part of the game. Git gud.
Imo the worst in 10th to play against were Custodes (pre codex). Not sure about the most fun, but it's definitely not Tyranids for me. As I play both factions whose army rules are affected by Battleshock (Tau and Guard), the inconsistency in GW rules pisses me off to no end (why are specifically those 2 are affected and no others) and playing agains Nids just reminds me of that. Especially Kauyon felt terrible because Shadow always got popped on turn 3 and more often than not neutered the entire turn. Also, of course I'm a bit biased here, but I think the dislike of Tau is more historic than anything, because I don't think they are even in the top 5 most problematic armies in 10th (maybe not even in the top 10). Heck even Guard was more problematic, before they dumpstered artillery.
I play regularly against four other players, each running either chaos, dark angels, or world eaters. Let me tell you the dataslate balance for me, a lowly tyranid player, just made me a major threat when before I was a nuisance even with the tyrannosniper.
My roommate plays Tau. Oh every unit can ignore cover? And everything has at least AP2 with no cover save? And there's no range limit to spotting? Sheesh.
Do you play on official terrain layouts or just set it up casually? I've found that optimised Tau lists without enough terrain can wipe out most of a Space Marine army in the first turn with all of its "ignores cover +1 to hit" nonsense, and it makes for a very unfun and uninteractive game, whereas with proper terrain placement their positioning becomes much harder and more precise.
Tf are you talking about? My friend plays T'au, and they seem to really struggle with AP without going into railgun territory. Not to mention that they've been some of the most fair fights I've had in a long time, and this is coming from someone who plays CSM, Daemons, CK, and DG
I love playing my Aeldari, though i lose most of the times but they are genuinely fun 😊, with every game I get slightly better...... SLIGHTLY BETTER. I need to play my other armies more play time: Drukari i played twice, Grey Knights once and Mechanicus 1 time. I think they can be fun i just need to figure them out 😅as well just painting them.
I play knights and I can see why no one wants to play against them. Yes it isn't fun to just hit a giant bag of HP that doesn't get hurt much of the time. since I only really play casual games I most of the time don't use stratagems, or invul saves a majority of the time because then the person relies on dice and can deal good damage with many different weapons. Plus I try to help other people with remembering some of the things they can do to deal more damage. That's also why I prefer narrative games over regular ones, the stories of the games are better and it makes for some really cool moments
Im honestly surprised to see gsc so high. i wonder if this is a no one plays against us or just the gsc player attitudes similar to how ork players are just fun.
People complain about knights because it’s easier to have a sook online than learn to counter an army that’s naturally skewed. I find things like (pre nerf) ironstorm infinitely more oppressive than knights
Knights literally goes two ways. You either take enough anti tank to win or you don’t. That’s it. It just isn’t fun. You can just show each other your lists and just decide there who wins without even playing.
For a lot of people the problem is not being able to field a balanced army with enough antitank to actually have a good game against Knights, especially with the toughness change making classic anti-tank options like Plasmas and Meltas wound even Armigers on 5s. It's especially bad for all the newer/more casual SM players, who at best might have a Ballistus Dreadnought and maybe a couple lascannons/chainfists here and there.
@@thewalrus511but that’s not really true. Knights can struggle pretty substantially if you have good objective play. Sometimes with something like a battle line spam army you can just have more bodies on objectives and they can’t do anything if they don’t have the anti horde to clear everyone, whether you can or can’t actually destroy any knights
Not only do we have at most 1/4th as many units as the opponent, but they're not as tanky as people think so you tend to lose what few units you have relatively quickly...
Knights and Custodes. I hate stat check armies, because they require no strategy to play with or against, only if you have the right tools. Meltas against Orks is suboptimal, but you can win. Boltguns against knights is game over.
You honestly think it takes no skill to play a game about controlling the board with a faction that has half, or even a third, of the pieces the opponent does?
Maybe if your just blindly spreading shots into all of them with no paticular target. Massed small arms fire WILL damage knights as long as you have enough of it, lost count how many times I've lost knights to a bunch of guardsmen whaling on them with lasgun fire after being battered by other stuff
@@watergaming7543 And this is especially true in 10th since lots of things have lethal hits, lots of factions can get lethal and sustained on a 5+. And that's even before you start counting all the anti-vehicle, anti-charachter and anti-walker things that knights simply have no answer to.
I hated fighting index sisters, because there were situations where you'd literally just not shoot, because it was unlikely that you'd fully destroy the unit, and giving them the buff just wasn't worth it. That and being forced to fight a 20 point crusader squad with like 300 points of models was just awful.
I lost 1500 points in turn 1 at the beginning of 10th edition from aldari going first. Some wounds never heal regardless of how they play now, I will never like playing against them. It is what it is
It's weird. I had one game where I played against the worst cheese of what Eldar could bring at the start of 10th, and it's still one of the most memorable games I've had this edition for *good* reasons. Since then, I've heard all the crying and yet my games with Eldar have been consistently very good ones! People let the worst of an army's rules and janky periods stick in their memory for a long time- I still get stick from people over how I played my Daemons in 6th- I'll *never* hear the end of the bloody 'screamer star.' XD
I have personally been run off of armies cuz I would pick one and then people would say they hate that army and I could not find any games in my area due to army hate. Really wish I didn't sell off my Guard army when I had it now cuz it's so expensive to get back into.
The reason I enjoy playing Tyranids is the following:
- I play Guard. Its the most fun matchup in terms of mechanics, and thematics.
- They have units in all weights, which makes the army very dynamic. From tiny gribblies to giant almost unkillable monsters.
- Same variety also means that each weapon actually has a place against them. Lasguns and low strength low ap against hordes, mid strength and mid ap against medium infantry like warriors, heavy against monsters. It never feels like im wasting a weapon shot against them.
- Their playstyle that is mid range --> melee is super fun to play against. And the synapsis linchpins are a fun mechanic.
- They dont have gotcha rules.
- They dont have super high saves available on basic troops. Even if you dont kill a lot of points, the fact that youre taking models just feels nice.
- It feels like you can always find an in-lore reason to battle them. So it makes each battle a mini story of its own.
Better yet, you don’t really need to think of a narrative reason to battle Tyranids- you could always just say they’re trying to devour the planet you’re fighting on and you are trying to stop them! Especially since there could be more Hive Fleets the Imperium has no clue about roaming the galaxy.
I play Tyranids myself and all my opponents name most of these reasons as why they like fighting nids. "No wasted bullets" is so true. Having a guard player getting to remove models with every single gun on their tank is great!
I play guard too (and sisters). My brother owns nids. Definitely the best match-up I’ve come across so far.
For sisters, I enjoy playing against necrons too! A friend has them and can get tiresome the endless necron waves but I’ve learned how to handle them without cheesy lists, just smart deployment and movement.
My other brother has death guard and its also great matchup for both sisters and guardsmen.
As a Tyranid player, I disagree that we don't have gotcha rules. A lot of that is tied to the battleshock mechanic that I've found opponents get frustrated about. If I'm playing Vanguard Onslaught, I might be forcing 5 battleshock tests in one turn, not including shadow in the warp. I've seen a grown man on the verge of tears at his Magnus failing 2 BS tests in a row and get ripped to shreds by Warriors.
I love the look my opponents give me when they see me unpacking my eldar army when I arrive at the game. Then they quickly realise that I suck, so its ok.
"Howling Banshees sure are cool, glad I brought like 500 points of them even if I don't have Jain Zar" Opponent visibly relaxes
Same. Strands of Fate are a balancing mechanic designed to make me suck less.
There are 2 types of Aeldari players, ones who are actually good, and those that just think they're good.
So far, i dont hate playing against armies. But ive found players id rather avoid.
Ironically he does mention this. Pretty much all the armies you face arent too terrible more often than not, sometimes it's busted rules or your army getting nerfed, which is annoying. But most often its the person.
Absolutely agree with this. Players make the game not what faction of toys they bring!
At my local area there's a guy that cycles through Iron Hands, Tau, Votann and now Knights.
Yea, they're that type of player.
Definitely this. It was easy to see who all the jerks were at the start of 10th with the hastily-built Eldar armies, saying stuff like "I'm not worried about losing out on the painting score."
@@Daniel-y9d2n
Showing up to a 1k Tourney and some SOb bringing nothing but Armigers.
I’ve heard a lot of people whine and complain whenever I play the Tyrannofex, claiming that “It’s way to good at killing tanks.” Honestly the second my nids could compete against heavy armor people started complaining. Seems they got used to our helplessness against vehicles and were in for a rude awakening 😂
A 190 pt double railgun with bs3, heavy, some chaff fire, scary melee, on top of that defensive profile and army rules is disgusting.
For their cost, the defensive profile of most Nid monsters are great, and I think this is often overlooked by players, expecting them to have greater output instead/also.
That's a damn shame to hear considering we just got out of the cheese strat of Biomining for nearly a year and back to more fun playstyles too. Hopefully just butthurt asshats that are too used to being stupid durable against us even with middling tank profiles that are the only ones getting irritated.
reliably oneshotting rhinos with a tfex/exo combo has caused a lot of salt
@@PlayWii360tm 4 S8 Ap 0 Damage 2 melee attacks is hardly scary, and it’s not like the Tyrannofex is going to do anything else other than dumpster tanks every turn. It’s great at its one job, and I assure you that there are stronger tanks for around that point cost. If you are running a lot of armored vehicles it is definitely going to be a problem, but you can definitely still kill the Tyrannofex.
I think people like fighting Tyranid because more than any other army I feel like losing is thematic.
What's funny is that tyranids don't mind losing units as much. Opponents can kill a bunch of stuff and feel like they're doing a lot, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
@@WillMatteroI think that that really is the best part of playimg against tyranids, as the opponent can slaughter units and have fun, while the game can go either way despite this.
This is why I like 'Nids/Orks. Same idea. Win, lose everyone is having fun.
I'm still personally of the belief that to end the debate of knights being a 'real' faction is try and add the surf/peasent army for knights, and introduce dark mechanicum into dark knights. Maybe have detachment(s) that still help with all knight armies but also support a mix of knight and smaller chaf units.
Seriously. I have knights but only use them as allies. I got a castellan for my admech and some armigers for my thousand sons.
Auspex Tactics, thank you for mentioning, "The player on the other side of the table makes so much difference than the exact army they're playing." I mostly play with my one friend, but he's basically a master level player. I'm probably somewhere between beginner and intermediate. I have never won a game against this friend, and we've played dozens of games, but he's a very good friend and helps me learn how to play better (gives me tips in-game!) so a good time is always had by all. We always like to hang out and discuss the game afterward! So despite my consecutive losing streak, I keep collecting and playing with this friend. So indeed, it is the players that make the experience moreso than the game, I think, at least for live versions. I sometimes wonder how it is to play 40k digitally. Either way, thank you for mentioning this wonderful element of the game, the other player.,
I have the same experience. The teacher of our group plays tournaments and we've never beaten him, gotten close, but it's still fun. Our friend group, between all 4 of us, collect half of the armies on this list though XD so we annoy each other with our schenanigans
The biggest trend I see is that it’s fun to kill models. When an opponent can just tank your damage phase and not lose much, it’s just not fun
Had this with a grey knights termi squad that a 5 man termi squad, a 3 man with arjac, 2 6 man thunder cavs all went into them and couldn't kill them off over 4 turns and just kept getting picked off
I really think the hyper "points dense" super tanky armies need more ways to "take damage" than just wounds.
Not full titanicus/legions imperialis rules for knights but like, in titanicus/imperialis titan/knight army you have *more* models than a 40k knights/titanic army AND more granularity for those higher model counts.
Having less models AND less complexity and less interactivity seems backwards!
I play Goblins in Age of Sigmar, one of my favorite 2k lists was just showing up with 200+ models and just swarming the objectives. I barely kill anything, and my opponents would get lost in the frenzy of killing 40+ models a turn. It was always a fun time, especially the look in their face when they realized they had tabled me, but they took so long to do so that I had double their score.
@@sc149 Lol turn knights into battletech with ammo locational damage and heat? I mean it goes against what they've apparently been trying to do in simplifying the game but it might give some balancing room for them to do more than stat check. granted 40k doesn't have as many turns so heat generation might be a bit wonky. Would be kindof fun tbh but if they didn't compensate itd just kindof kill the faction and thatd just kinda suck. The mechs are cool and pretty much the only reason i got into this at all.
Git gud
I think this is why im happy im a ork player. I go in with a, "i have no idea whats gonna happen, but im gonna role lots of dice or die trying!"
I dont win normally. I just like charging toward my enemy and seeing how far i can get and laughing at the funny outcomes.
😂 That’s the most Ork statement I’ve ever heard, how perfect
A true Ork commander
Oddly enough the "worst" army for me to play against is whichever one my opponent brought😅
I played a bunch of matches against early 10th Eldar lists, so I’m pretty fine facing anything nowadays lol
Same. I remember beating a guy with a tournament list for his eldar and i was running a more casual list. He was so angry he didn’t play me for months after that
I think it's less of "armies" that are less fun to play against and more of a player issue. I've played against gunline armies had fun because it was a friendly game, and I've played against disorganized armies and had a miserable experience because the other guy was just an awful opponent.
But if you put the same player in command of every army, witch one would you like the most/less
I really hate playing against Space Marines but it’s because the player in my group always conveniently forgets his rules and likes to try to bend things in his favor.
A disappointment to the emperor
I just hate marines cuz they can get boring imo.
@@BIGDADY11-wh2yg well I play Orks sooo… lol
@@sheaparkersp yeah I get that
Ah, a Minotaurs player.
*Hits blunt*
"Hey, here's a fun army to play against, three wraithknights."
Yeah I just wouldn’t play that game. It’s an Uber douche move
That sounds like a great idea, for epic.
I mean is it really much different than playing against knights or chaos knights? Like sure those can be rough if you’re not prepared, but I don’t really think it’s any worse than them because even if the wraith knight has a pretty solid defensive profile with his saves and with -1 damage his wounds are actually quite low for the cost.
Idk for sure never played with or against wraith knights but seems the same as a knights list that leans more into big knights which most 2k pt armies should probably have at least somewhat of an answer for if they’re expecting to play vs random people in a somewhat competitive environment
That's exactly why I don't like facing any kind of Knight armies, especialy in 10th where they're more tanky. Generaly armor heavy skew lists sare unfun to play because large part of your army feels useless in these games.
As well as 15 warpspiders
I really don’t like ‘gotcha’ armies that have special rules that break the game that if you don’t know about before playing the game you essentially just lose.
This is why I say “I don’t hate the army, just the player”
Is that the card game Mtg equivalent of a combo deck?
Warhammer shouldn't be a gotcha game. Your opponent should be forthcoming with things their army can do.
That's on both you and the opponent frankly. If the opponent is hiding what their units do and you do not question it or look it up, you've done a disservice to yourself. I got burned too many times when I started the game by taking peoples' word for it. Particularly by a cheating guard player.
It's not supposed to happen.
Player should inform the opposing players of the danger of certain move, you can't expect the opposing players to remember all your special rule
as a Dark Eldar player, we are accurately placed, right on the cusp of being annoying but not quite there (probably because there's like 3 of us lol, along with the 2 dudes that play the Genestealers)
In my experience Dark Eldar are really annoying to play against because they can kill everything they touch... until they stand still. Then you squash them like a mosquito.
GSC player here. Yep. The only reason we didn’t place was because no one’s played us lol 😅
The thing about Deldar in 10th is that they have alright datasheets (excluding Scourges…) that need their unique buff stacking to really start mowing through stuff. They’re a pretty interactive army, and with Skysplinter you just pop the transports and can kinda neuter their game plan.
As the second GSC player I feel like people enjoy playing us because they get to see hordes of enemies die. But if we're hot on our Cult Ambush that's when it gets a little tedious lol
Happy to see people enjoy playing against the only army I'm collecting right now. Orks are fun!
People like fighting orks because they're honest. Oh, they have neat little things they can do, but they're rarely opressive.
The 'shooting barely does anything' when on custodes was so true for me. An entire shooting phase that basically did nothing..... and then I charged and made the mistake of forgetting they counter that too and make you pay(Pre-codex) ya custodes definetly up there as an annoying faction for me.
Never leave home without a meltagun. ; )
@@jasompinard4576 4+ invuls though. Meltas mean nothing when you can say "Ya.... your ap means nothing"
That's unfortunate, but understandable. I play Death Guard, Chaos Knights and a wee baby Necron army in the works. I love CK because they are easily some of the most fun to build, paint and look at. I get why they can be a raw stat check, but it's also fun stomping around. Granted I don't play optimally because I hate War Dog spam, and I love my Bigs out there.
Every army can be a challenge when their "thing" is done well, but by far and away more annoying than that is "that" sort of player. The "win at all costs" sort who can make any game be a boring grind of unfun tedium.
Lists which are intentionally crafted to prevent engagement/interaction from your opponent, which are almost always skew lists. Knights, "Jail" lists, etc.
What is a "jail" list?
@KnightRighteous essentially, it's a list that moves up the board fast and pretty much keeps you in your deployment zone. For example, "Wolf Jail" is the Stormlance 3 Bricks of TWC that move, advance and charge and keep you stuck for a few turns.
Knights are skew lists because that’s literally the entire faction.
Kroot jail was a good jail lost cause it just involved the opponent just culling massive hordes that did little damage
Yo take down that wolf jail recipe 😂 Lol
as an greater good enjoyer, i would like to see my faction become a true xeno empire, with several playable races. They literally have unlimited potential: you can create Halo-like brutes focused in melee, more vespids or kroot, and they already have psychic races in the empire. GW can pull whatever they want with the tau empire, but they don´t (i also like to fill the air with bullets tho)
Idk man, I hear this opinion from time to time about different tau races. But I never really vibed with this, I am here for battlesuits and dudes with plasma rifles; not fucking kroots. And I am pretty sure that my feelings are shared among many, riptide is the bestseller for a reason.
no tau just dead fish people
I used to have a Tau army, when people made fun of Tau for being Gundam I'd be like, yeah, and it's cool as shit. Had some Kroot and Vespid but they aren't cohesive so they didn't really fit the vibe. Thing about Halo is you see them visibly using the same weaponry because it's a game, on tabletop it doesn't work, also they aren't fighting in formation or anything.
Truth is Gue'vesa would get the point across.
100% literally could make it one of the biggest and coolest army variants out
@@Eugromlolthey’re not even fish, they’re more like camels
Surprised sisters are so highly liked to play against
Won’t last long with their current rules…
Why? They are glass canons. They do a ton of damage, but they also die pretty easily. It is pretty fun to play against something like that.
They tend to play very cagey and then you get counter punched super hard for trying to be the aggressor. Just very difficult to come out ahead in trade.@@JackDespero
I agree with you. I find them to be the most irritating army to face by far. Not because they're difficult, but because it's such a dull thing when your opponent goes: "Nuh uh! I play my _miracle dice,_ so you can't hurt her! Nyah nyah!". Like, this is a game about rolling dice. It kills all of the tension when somebody can just ignore a dice roll.
Yes I know Eldar can do it too, but they can't make them as fast, and they've been heavily nerfed now and in the past. Sisters have just been rolling with it since they came back.
But to be fair, looking at the state of the rules in 10th overall, I can't foresee GW managing to undo anything with heavy nerfs with the teams they have now. You need to make the rules _fun_ before you try to balance them. Right now armies have so little in terms of fun rules that the only reason we have balance is because the units are homogenising into the same sorts of stats across different factions.
@@DeathInTheSnow Whats worse than making saves into auto-6ing damages... The glass cannon faction having 4+ invulnes and just how imbalanced miricle and fate dice feel sometimes i just dont like playing against sisters or Eldar
It's not an edition of 40k if people don't say they hate playing against Eldar.
Most of the people I talk to usually cite fate dice as the primary reason they hate them, but now apparently Sisters are 5th most liked.
Big "Our glorious miracle dice" versus "Their unfun fate dice" energy.
How dare we Xenos players have fun!
I think early 10th wraithknights have left some people scarred
Double overwatch is insanely aids. The other guy gets to take his turn during my turn.
I don't think people like playing against nids because people are newbies .... that feels like a weird jump to me. Everyone I know likes playing against them because they're a very 'traditional' narrative enemy. Like starship troopers - kill the bugs type vibe. Like it's just very fun to pitch your space knights against quintessential alien bugs
Currently painting my Nids as starship trooper bugs lol just started painting so not the best but fun colour scheme to try out
Never hate the army, just the player
The only way
🧎♂️yes master
Imperial Knights are absolutely amazing The kingmaker book made me love them I really want ether a drop keep or men at arms infantry
I feel like a drop keep wouldnt work for a 2k point game. It'd have to be absolutely massive, crazy expensive, and cost a lot of points unfortunately. But yeah ngl men at arms and some intermediate chassis to bridge the gap between armiger and questoris would really make knights less of a skew army.
@@aqz7603 Honestly, lets bring down the armigers' toughness and points so people feel like they are more interactive. Knights do need some men at arms though. Some deep strikers, screeners, maybe a repair team. Units purely to support the imperial knights. The inquisition is just a band aid.
@@zer0prototype5 My solution has just been to run kitbased voidsmen, I basically just took the new Bretonnian foot knights and gave them the heads and arms/guns of Skitarii, they're pretty fun
@@playsroguealot6911 my army is power rangers themed. I 3d printed some ranger teams to scale and those are my voidsmen. I also have my Inquisitor Zordon as just a dreadnought coffin.
@@zer0prototype5Armigers are fine, they don’t need nerfs. Knights only feel bad to play against if you’re not bringing enough anti-tank in your lists, but vehicles are prominent enough in 10th that if you were doing that you probably weren’t running a good list.
People just dislike skew lists
Me, an Aeldari player: "....here we go again"
I'm putting together a Kroot army right now, I wonder what people would think of playing against them?
I'm guessing most people would be happy to, for the novelty and also because they're kinda like watered down Orks or Tyranids 😄
Knights feeling like a stat-check is really in line for playing against them. If they go first and you are not in complete cover, whatever's visible is getting deleted if it's smaller than a tank and if it's a low terrain board 1/3 to 2/3rds of an army getting deleted in one firing action does kinda suck.
So play on boards with adequate terrain, and deploy better. You shouldn't be getting shot turn 1 in almost any circumstance.
I’ve seen a noticeable increase in my Blessings of Khorne rolls the louder I yell “FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!”
I play knights and it got very tiring for both my opponents and myself to play with the stompy bois.
They are a stat check army, either your opponent can deal with them and will do so by turn 2-3, or they cant and you will reliably shoot them off the table. When that sort of dynamic becomes apparant, people will just pack as much anti-tank into their army as they physically can, and at that point you have just wasted your time playing the game. They are very good looking models, but are not healthy for the game as a standalone faction as they are now
Casual players will list tailor, sure. If you just play competitive players that doesn't happen
9 times out of 10 in competitive the opponent knows what to do vs knights lists... imps not much boardpresence.. ck kinda fragile
I sometimes get a bit bored of Space Marines if that’s all I seem to be playing against
This was me circa 6th/7th, when everybody and their dog was playing Marines and I was the only one who wasn't. I got very sick of power armour for a while!
Tau player here, and I have an idea for a new gimmick.
Seeing as how every single person has really really hated literally everything we've ever done (Jump-shoot-jump, drones, really big guns, etc) I have this great idea for a NEW thing that Tau could do to make them good without pissing everyone off:
FUCKING MELEE.
JUST LET US DO IT.
Like seriously why not?!
While I haven't had anyone complain about my very memey Kroot force, I agree with you 100%. At the very least give the larger battlesuits some melee options like a wrist mounted version of Votan plasma blade looking weapons.
Cause Tau have the best shooting, It'd be like giving World Eaters good ranged units.
We have them. They’re called Rampagers, and they’re a counterpunch unit. Tau’s focus will always be ranged, and it should stay that way. If we get melee units they should be priced at a premium for inclusion in the shooting army or something like Rampagers.
@@marrowkaiproductions7053 I think Tau have a reputation for having the best shooting. I do not think Tau have the best shooting.
@@im_flat See, I think the army as a whole would be much better off and more fun to play and play against if we just gave up on being 'the shooting army.' Our guns are not that good. Our entire army mechanic is using multiple units to get our ballistic skill AS GOOD as Marines, the averagest army.
Something I always thought was weird was that the tau in lore don’t just gunline it, they utilize high mobility units along with slower support units like broadsides. And then I see players just stay still and kill anything in two salvos like it’s the 1,600s
If you're not YOLOing your piranhas into units halfway across the table, you're not living your life.
Man like everything i wanted to do is on the not fun list lol. I just like guns and mechs. I aint mean nothin by it.
I find the hatred towards knights and custodes so fascinating from a gameplay perspective. Itd be interesting to see what armies people specifically play themselves when voting what thier most hated army is. I think peopel dont admit it but a lot of players think they are experienced and skilled and when they get stomped by knights and custodes, they assume the opposing player is almsot using a cheat card. People seem to forget these armies have glaring weaknesses which keep them from the very top. They are elite models and 40k is an objective based game. Eapecially now, neither knights nor custodes are as scary as they were in the beginning of tenth. This applys to aeldari as well
I just find them boring because they feel like they're always the same. One is T6, 2+ Save that chops you up (unless credit card suffered greatly in which case you might face the dreadnought or the tank as well) and the other one is just a few big robots with various guns. Amazing models but monotonous to watch and play against.
Well said. (though I do think optimized aeldari were pretty broken, especially early on) People complain about ik making most of their units feel worthless. Fair. your S9 under weapons won't do much. Their new role is objectives, screening, and nuisance charges. Everyone is still playing as long as you didn't forget your anti-tank or have no idea how to play the game without killing.
@@HHWorldspawn so what I'm hearing is gw needs to expand the knight range. Or knights need a mechanic so the other player feels like the accomplished something even when they manage to wound but not kill a knight.
@@zer0prototype5 a lot of armies have high output shooting at low str or good close combat which both can topple knights really fast... people tend to forget theres not a lot of knights with good saves up close
@@zer0prototype5 I suppose blowing up robot parts like legs, arms etc would be kinda cool although I was thinking more along the line of expanding the range just so that if you're up against a few knight players it won't feel like you're facing the same army list over and over again while also giving the knight players more options and ways to play which would be a win for everyone I think.
For comparison, if you face Guard players it's not that uncommon for their armies to be quite different as one could be mechanized, 2nd is infantry, 3rd guy loves tanks and the 4th is a combined arms, 5th is Scions and the 6th guy is running super heavies and even within those categories their are many ways to create a list and even if two identical lists show up (net lists etc) they can still be different models as one could collect Tallarn while the other is running Steel Legion models.
Granted that GW removed those old models and never gave them new plastic kits but still!!
People don't have any opinion on World Eaters at all I guess 😂
Hard to be mad when you know exactly what your opponent is gonna do every turn lol
they were right at the start tied for 5th for most fun to play against. hopefully you are shadowboxing the entire time to up the fun
They’re fun to play against as long as it’s not just eightbound spam
@@bradleymartinez185 LMAO
World Eaters are a simple army at first glance that actually takes a fair bit of finesse to pilot successfully. They’re a board control army more than a “run at you” list like pre-nerf greentide or Bully Boyz.
The new Bringers Of Flame detachment for Sisters is very fun to play casually, not very fun to play against competitively. I run them myself and enjoy the punching-up ability they get, but when I play someone going for a 'competitive' slant on the list, if they get turn 1 with even half-decent deployment, they're shooting you off the board before you can do anything about it.
As an Eldar player, there is something I find interesting. Obviously hate for factions largely revolves around whichever ones recently had stupidly OP rules, and on that basis Craftworld Eldar objectively deserved some hate. There will also always be people who dont like the inherent playstyle of the army. But what I find with Eldar is that a lot of people really, really hate them for their lore, which is far more unusual - and confusing for me, as that is what I like most about them.
just elf hate.....probably a stigma from other games with elves that also compounds the hate even further
I've noticed a lot of people hate factions that aren't the most evil thing ever.
Can't tell you how many times as a T'au fan I've heard "They make the Imperium look bad"
The people that hate the Eldar for their lore are also the same people that think the Imperium are unironically the good guys of the setting, though, so their opinion doesn’t matter too much.
It’s also like…Eldar aren’t an easy army to pilot. Mistakes are punished heavily because your units are as sturdy as tissue paper. Joe Schmoe in your local Escalation League isn’t winning LVO with his casual lists.
@@oh7mak people heavily identifying with the Imperium, thinking they are the 'good guys', or even more confusing, that they are 'us' is really, really weird. This is sci-fi/fantasy fiction, nothing in it directly represents 'us' and if the Imperium really did exist I think people underestimate just how alien it would feel in it's way of thinking and values. Although given the extreme religious authoritarianism afflicting certain very prominent parts of the world at the moment I suppose it makes a certain depressing kind of sense.
Honestly I find it's player skill > than the army itself that dictates people's enjoyment. Playing against someone who knows their army inside and out, it's strengths and weaknesses and how to best employ the former while preventing an opponent from exploiting the latter. You're going to wallop anyone who isn't of the same level in most games.
An example I'll use from personal experience is my Tau. I know the army inside and out and most opponents come at them with a 'I just need to get you in melee' mindset. Which granted; sure that is their on paper weakness, but knowing the army like I do; I know how to screen effectively, apply their movement and ensure you will never make it successfully into melee without paying dearly for it. Oftentimes this leads to opponents getting caught in the midfield and being utterly crushed.
Instead now I play other armies that I am less experienced with and reserve my Tau for people who are specifically seeking to challenge that army knowing what it's capable of. I tend to get closer games this way which is more enjoyable for everyone involved.
It’s so fucking funny people just made their minds about tau and don’t care if they’re strong or not, they just internalised that tau are hated so hate to play against it
40k fans have a problem with hearing someone repeat something, internalizing it then repeating it themselves.
I think it's telling the "most favored armies to play against" are the ones typically considered easy to beat. So many people hate being challenged it's pathetic. Now, I'm not saying that's the only reason, some people here put it perfectly in the other direction: they like playing some of them because it lines up with the theme of their own army and makes an almost cinematic battle, that I applaud.
I love the bright lances for elder using them on fire prisms is hilarious
Just based my last brigand for 12 dogs and 4 nurglings list. Let the hate come. My local meta has everyone bringing the strongest thing…but we still get along and haven’t had a bad game yet.
That's actually a peak list, I love that
Guard have simple mechanics really. Most of their buffs and strategems are used in their turn and are straight forward. Their basic troops are easy to squish, their tanks are tough but manageable. There's some other faction vehicles that are normal that have almost as much shooting as a Baneblade.
In a ecem matchup losing to guard is like losing to a good Ryu player in street fighter. Cant really be mad at a honest win
The only bad thing about fighting Guard is indirect but that’s because indirect will always not feel great
The worst I've ever done was playing a match against our local Catachan player in 3rd edition who was complaining that nobody would play against him using the jungle rules.
I had to proxy the army because there was no way at the time that I could afford it. It was an Iyanden army. You can imagine how it went.
Knights is my favourite army to play against, I won every game this edition :D
I enjoyed playing against Orks recently. I play imperial guard and run non skew lists, so i have an tough time against World Eaters players who typically admit their army doesn’t function without Angron, who will turn one smash a lot of my best stuff, die and then return with a 400+ points refund for the army, and it can happen multiple times despite guard reinforcements being a one time thing now doesn’t balance out that swing much. Another challenge is Votann who make a mockery of a lot of targets. They are a fun army to see on the board, but the ability to mass shoot a bunch of dice, some with anti vehicle 2+ into a super heavy, hit on 2s and wound on 5s with their weakest mass firepower is a lot to get used to. My main opponent is a Votann player however so I’ve sort of become used to it. It’s still fun to play both, but each time it reminds me why I’m glad I keep out of the more cut throat tournament scenes, as opposed to the friendly games I usually play in.
People like playing against weak armies or what they can kill. You can pretend as you want, but you( community and players) want to see enemy models off the table and not scoring points. Points just digits, enemy models are blood and ashes. So it is vicious circle. Maybe wombo combo melee armies are good in this case. Coz melee player can blame only himself for playing not optimally.
Knights are great. Turns are pretty quick, not too many rules, and actually fairly simplistic. I can see how playing against them could be a feel bad moment, but they aren’t invincible, right?? Buy and paint 3-4 knights and have a great time…
I don’t have any armies I don’t like playing against. I just like playing. If I had to pick though I’d say admec and gsc only because I’ve never played either one and I have no clue what they can do. The game would be long for me cuz I’d be learning as I play.
GSC is pretty straightforward, they deep strike and they have a lot of units that aren’t super powerful individually so depend on volume. It’s why they’re “THE” horde army.
Weird thing for me is, I can imagine some people just hating playing against the one same army, all the time, and blaming the faction, in part, for having one ideal way to play, and thus having to fight that every weekend. Back when Necrons basically were all HCL, teleporting around C'Tan, or Ork Meganob spam, and it's just what's there because it is what's meta-popular, and your friend found a list. I say that because I can imagine someone not wanting to play "Bob's Golden Banana Boys" again, but considering hoe expensive 40k can be to collect, and the time sunk into assembling it, many players might only have feasibly one army, with mostly one way they plan to run it.
I've got back in the hobby with Thousand Sons. I know they are perceived as overpowered, but I enjoy playing them and like them visually and am happy with my painting on them. I play at tournaments and enjoy the game at that level, independent of my own success, and I am usually very upfront with certain things that might catch my opponent off guard or they might not be aware of. Still, whenever I show up with my army, the usual reaction is some kind of annoyed eyeroll or comment in that regard. So, while I really like my army, I get negative reaction based on them and whenever I win, there is some level of imposter syndrome going on.
I'm thinking about getting into a second army, specifically that people like playing against. I thought about orks, since that has been the "fun to play against" army for as long as I remember, but I don't like them visually. I am surprised to see Tyranids up so high, that might be a consideration for a second army, as I like how they look a lot.
I would love to see your take on how Daemon Allies would be best to implement,
especially for Word Bearers.
I used to love the MoP's incuresion spell and summoning strategem back in 8th
I like playing Necrons
I do not like facing 6 units that have 4+ invuln, t11, 5+ fnp with regenerating wounds and insane damage outputs when I'm fielding 1 unit with that kinda profile
@@LordyT34 necrons need a nerf. They are rediculous.
So I've been playing for about a couple of months till now, and from what I can tell about fighting certain armies, one one hand it's the army itself, but on the other it can be the player themselves that don't make it fun.
I have had many times I've played against someone and had a good time, cause we're just talking to each other about the hobby, making jokes about the situation and in general just having fun. I remember playing twice against the same guy who plays space wolves, and he was pretty chill. Another time recently against Sisters of Battle, and a Black Templars army that had some nicer dust effects for his tanks. and don't even get me started on how nice it is to see a Imperial guard army that's painted so damn well, which is why I like asking my opponents if I can take pictures of their armies and share them to my friends and family to show their talent. These people made the hobby feel nice.
But then there's the other side...
Before I begin, I will say that I mostly play Necrons, though I don't have much of a serious list. Just pretty much got models I enjoy, like the immortals, a full unit of Skorpekhs and a Lord with them, and even Illuminor and a Doomsday Ark (still don't have a c'tan yet, though I do want the Void Dragon, though I kinda want to save up for the Silent King). Won't go through the whole list but you get the idea. RIght now I'm trying to figure out and play a new army since I want and like variety, currently being a big Tyranid list over 2kpts I've been building up, along with a 1kpts Thousand Sons list I'm wanting to practice painting with.
There have been a few times I've fought against people that either are just boring, or their army is just not fun to play against. There is the custodes player that when I first played against, the army was so frustrating to fight. Nevermind that one unit that Deepstrikes and has a save of 2+, and a tank on one health that just wouldn't die (that was more dice luck I suppose? But still.) They also had the audacity to complain about horde armies, and how he was glad they can only heal once with stratagems cause they seem 'bullshit' to fight, whilst he plays an army that lore-wise is literally hopelss to fight against cause they're op as fuck. I did end up winning, but I was so frustrated, salty and tired, it didn't feel like a win at all.
Then there was the Aeldari. I never realised how bad their Fate dice could be until I faced it myself. It's so stupid that when you finally hit their tank, that one shot can just end it, and they just pull a dice out of their ass and say 'nuh uh'. Just removes the whole 'the dice tells story' thing, cause they can just do that shit. I only won cause they underestemated me, and my Skorpekhs. But don't even get me started with their boring attitude, especially after charging him with said Skorpekhs and he says ' actually, you can only use the 3 at the front'. Fuck you. If I'm charging you, they're all fighting. How stupid would it be if an ork unit of 20 got a charge, and they said only that one ork model can fight cause the others are 1 inch away? For the record, I don't care if that's how it's done in competitive, this is casual play. Hell, I'd even say to my opponent as well it's fine to have all that unit in the fight, cause it's fun! To hell with GW's boring rules (not implying I don't like to follow the rules, but when it's just dumb shit like that, I draw the line.)
But the worst one out of them all, was against this Imperial Guard player. Just to clarify, I don't hate Guard armies. As I said earlier with the painting of them, and facing one of my pals at the store with one, I LOVE the Imperial guard, gameplay-wise and Lore-wise. But my god this guy's list was just...
So I usually set up my army at the side whilst I'm waiting for my oponnent to arrive, or just in general so I don't have to struggle getting them out when I'm deploying. When he arrived, he had at least 2 boxes with all of his IG stuff (he wasn't gonna use all of them of course, it was a 2kpts match). He also mentions that not far from my town he mostly goes to play competitively, so it's obvious he's way more experienced than I am. Of course not that it's a problem since I've played against more experienced people before, though they're usually just chill and bring a casual list. As usual I bring every Necron model I have cause they're literally all I have, by the time we've deployed all our units, his side was almost entirely tanks. He had at least a mortar team camping behind a building where an objective was, and as well had 1 infantry unit or like 5 guys (don't remember what they were, but they definitely weren't Guardsman.) So pretty much a pretty competitive list. From what I can tell, he looked at my models, and brought out what was good against them. I could tell cause I saw what was left in his box, and there were a bunch of Kriegsman and other infantry units. So basically it boiled down to me trying to shoot something, just for it to do nothing, since almost all of my list only had at least -1 or -2 ap, except for the DDA, Doomstalker and Lokhust Heavy. It wasn't even turn 2 where almost everything was killed. Warriors? Gone. Skorpekhs? Gone. Immortals? Half a unit. Just s shit load of tanks still alive and camping an entire half of the board. I was already annoyed and miserable, and I knew how this was going to go, so I conceded since I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of a real win. You can say that's 'toxic' but to clarify I don't hate losing, but when it's something like that, it just makes the hobby unbearable to play. It's horrible when all you play is casual, and some competitive sweat comes in and floors you, and has the audacity to say 'i'm playing for fun'. I'm sure you are pal...
I even talked about it to others and how frustrating it way, but all I got back were things like 'it's just toy soldiers' and 'it's just how it is', just pretty much making me feel like I was just some kid having a tantrum, and that I just have to deal with it cause that's how the game is. Which almost drove me away from the hobby at how these people were just fine with that type of behavior and play style.
It was that match that made me realise how much I hate 10th compared to the other editions I looked up. Just fishing for 6's, lack of flavor and boring list builds, though that last one is mostly the player issue itself. It made me realise how the only reason I enjoy 10th was because I wasn't even focused on it when I played with people where we were having a good time. But when you're mainly focusing on the match, that was when I didn't enjoy it, winning or not. But maybe I am the problem, idk.
But in conclusion as I said before, I think it really does depend on who you're playing against, and their attitude in general. Cause you can either face someone who's chill and has fun, making a new friend you can play against and talk about the hobby a lot, or face competitive sweats who build annoying lists and are just boring to be around, making you not want to play against them and driving you away from the hobby.
Apologies for the long ass post, but I just wanted to get out mu thoughts on this topic in general.
I'd love for the big knights to get some points cuts so that Chaos Knights are more varied in what works. Bumping up wardog cost would just drop their options to have support, but getting a titanic that is work the cost means that you would actually want to sacrifice a few dogs. I mostly play casual 1000 point games thought so maybe having a single knight works somewhat when it's a 2000 point game but I feel like even then I'd rather have 3 wardogs than a knight. If something other than the abominant got closer to or even below that 400 point mark they would feel more useful, especially with some of the other hard hitting tanks out there for other factions sometimes being 250 or 350 points for insane weapons and tankyness for the points.
My local group hasn't really picked up tyranids in 10th so I'm so used to playing against 40 mortal wound maleceptors from 9th. They all sold off their nids once the winrates dropped below 80%
Seems like people want to play against armies that start on the board and run at them without being too durable
This is why I’m happy I play astras. No matter how much the meta changes and which armies rise and fall typically I can put something on the table that can hurt anything on the other side
Back through late 5th/early 6th I was probably one of the more frustrating players in our group to play in (Tau).
I utterly refused to try and counterpick my opponent (lists could easily go months without anything more than minor tweaks) and would happily run the same lists vs orks as I would vs grey knights, or eldar, etc.
On the other hand, in any points scale below 1500 points there were 0 units that weren't either vehicles, crisis suits or units embarked in transports, and even above 1500 points it was a few small units of pathfinders and broadsides while the manouverable aspects of the army still continued to grow.
As the Tau codex got older and older (especially late 5th) playing into the old cover saves for tau vehicles to make them hilariously resilient at range, and allow to function as extra LoS blocking for crisis suits and just deny the enemy a chance to engage on their terms via hit and run and picking them apart.
Yep. I'm IK player and 3 out 5 friends with whom playing at TBS just don't want to play against my army. Just because of T10-T12 walkers.
"There's only one way to play - tailoring or suffering" or "It's impossible to play against ur freaking walking tanks!" they say.
And I'm sure that in our narrative play" they'll kill me first or just ignore all around the game
Maybe get a second army and stop being ‘that guy’ in your friendship group? Just a thought
I doubt it's "just because of T10-T12 walkers" but a list that's 90% armor where you have to put out 10-20+ wounds before you actually feel an effect. Other armies, you at least feel it as models are removed. Other armies tend to not have 3+/5+ for the lowest-cost unit. Another commenter elsewhere lamented that fighting Knights can just be predicted before the battle begins by comparing lists. I don't think it's true across the board, but it's been a good metric in my own group
@@miker292 it's super faction dependant too, like my GSC actually have no way to kill a big knight (or probably even armigers) efficiently now cause we only have two sources of S10+ and they're both on HQs with low volume of attacks
@@mattiase204 Playing knights doesnt make you a "that guy" player lmao. imagine thinking that playing a faction you enjoy is equivalent to all of the other shit associated with the "that guy" archetype like cheating or bad hygiene
I think what people forget about Knights (speaking as a CK player) is that knights REALLY struggle against large amounts of units. Played a 1000 point game against my friend's T'au list that I built for him with my War Dog Pack. Did he win? No. But through sheer quantity of firepower and the massive railguns in the back, he got almost all of my War Dogs down to 3-5 wounds in one turn. It wasn't even a list made to fight a certain army, it was supposed to be a balanced list that was centered entirely around Farsight
For me it's the Aeldar. Mainly because the most experienced player in my friends group mains them. That army always seems to have a counter to whatever I am doing.
"Oh you hit me with a tachyon arrow? Im gonna use this 4 I rolled earlier for my invul"
"Oh your deep striking? Free overwatch"
"Oh you moved within 9 inches of me for a charge? Im gonna walk 6 inches away so you cant charge now"
"Oh I hit you with a bright lance. Im gonna use this 6 I rolled earlier"
"Oh you got precision? The unit is T7. Good luck wounding me"
"Oh no. Im out of 4s, 5s and 6s. Im gonna turn this 1 into a 6"
There is a necron player at my wargaming group that uses the ctan nightbringer (and is also generally annoying) who struggles to find anyone who wants to play against him
Just realized i've been watching this channel off/on for the last 4-ish years, and not subbed...terrible. Subbed now! Thank you!
I'd have much prefered Knight if the codex had been written to be a proper force, with support troops choices to give the army other ways to fight.
I like my BFGRs, but I can understand if people think my armies are a bit one note.
This is exactly how knights should have been implemented, it would make the army so much less annoying. Sadly I think it was a sales decision - how do we appeal to people who only like big models and don't want to have to paint infantry? As per usual, letting short term sales drive decisions rather than going with the longer- term option of designing a good game.
@@samhunter1205 yup still hoping as a ck player for the same... dont want to have to ally
What still can’t understand (after 40 years) is why in a game that has a Sci Fi setting that guns are so unpopular, and there has always been a melee bias. To the point where the only faction that forgoes melee is unpopular because of it, even though it’s impossible for them to field an efficient viable melee contingent. Have I missed something?
Its strictly the rules. Shooting has no trade off in the way melee does. If i charge you theres a chance you swing back on my own turn. Shooting is "safe" but also uninteractive. It could be fixed by bringing in HH style reactions or alternating activations but for now its just the way it is
@@ac833 interactive versus non interactive is in my opinion a bit subjective. For me melee is non interactive as the the Tau may as well not have any attacks for the good does them. So the fight phase is about as interactive as the shooting phase is for my opponent, neither of which I mind, as I don’t see why something is considered better because you get to roll some dice too. What I am seeing here is people wanting to play AoS with 40K models.
@@ASBOmarc you can call it subjective but you'd be wrong. It is objectively true that combat trades whereas shooting doesn't. Trying to imply that just because your data sheets aren't built for damage output doesn't override the fact that if I charge on my turn and your unit survives you have an opportunity to return damage whereas in your shooting phase I do nothing but roll saves and remove models.
@@ac833 quite, I also argue shooting is interactive, you step out of cover and don’t kill your target you are going to get shot back, in the same way that if you use a fully tooled up melee unit against an unit that happens to be able to able to fight but doesn’t specialise in it, then the most likely outcome is that you destroy the unit on the charge before it has a chance to ‘interact’. Whether it’s interactive or not there is a huge bias on melee, which although I accept is the nature of the game I will never agree with as it’s supposed to be a Sci Fi game not a fantasy game with a Sci Fi skin.
@@ASBOmarc dude I get it you're a tau player and no one likes to play with you. You're a one phase army that takes no skill to play and most people find it boring to stand there watching you roll dice. Good luck
Oh, I thought this was about armies people hating playing as not playing against.
People have hated playing Thousand Sons for 20 years, although the reason changed. Back in the day their having 2 wounds (which was very rare) but not having much of an additional cost to them made them horrendously tanky.
As an Aeldari main, I'm very conflicted between feeling disappointed that my army is so disliked to play against, and simultaneously a wicked sense of glee that it's so far down.
I personally don't play very "skewy" lists, as I dislike that whole powergaming mindset. I think a lot of the current dislike of the faction comes from some early edition, hyper skewed lists that were obscenely powerful and rightfully nerfed into the dirt, but some of y'all ought to start taking into account that for the past 4-5 months or so, Aeldari have been on the lower end of 50% winrates, and falling ever since. If you still feel like it's some kind of unbeatable, never fun to play against army then it might just be a you problem.
FULLY agreed. The stigma with Eldar has gotten so bad that I’ve almost just had to shelve mine. Even after I show them the nerfs and the winrates, they just say “yeah, but that’s different”. It’s awful.
@@breadmoment7018The playerbase holds onto negative sentiments for very long stretches of time. See: Tau’s placement in this and the long-held belief they just shoot you off the board
I played a 5 C'tan Hypercrypt list today (including a Tesseract Vault) and it was...tough. I was playing Custodes and he could just delete stuff with very little I could do in response. I also play Necrons, so I knew they were strong, but it was bonkers how tough the C'tan were!
C'tan are the only thing in game which annoy me. They have every single defence layer in the game. Toughness, invun, decent wounds, FNP, healing, half damage. 6 defensive layers.
Same for wraiths, very annoying, they have an effective 54 wounds for the unit if you kill them in one shooting phase (basically not happening) if you only managed to kill 2 they go up to something like 75 effective wounds and it goes up by 25ish every time that happens 😅
I have a very tank-heavy Tau composition which is not easy to kill. Especially since they are generally able to kill everything that threatens the tanks most right away.
Also, when I got my Ghostkeel, the guy I played against was pretty annoyed about the Ghostkeel being able to just negate the damage from an attack, meaning it wasn’t worth targeting with a heavy las weapon, and instead he chipped away at it with bolters.
Me watching this as a an Imp Knights player 💀 (also planning on playing around with Chaos a bit, just to spice things up)
I actually lose more games than I win oddly enough but that’s probably because I’m new to 40K and I don’t have many knights and I’ve been playing more Horus Heresy than 40K lately and HH is brutal if you don’t have a MASSIVE army
As a CK player who mostly plays the big boys, I lose like 90% of my games. I still get a ton of enjoyment out of them as most of the time my enemy's lists are in shambles by the end of it all. I've only really had 2 times where I wasn't having a good time against another player. The first was when I once played against the pre-nerf Eldar, where I flat out couldn't do anything to his list as he effortlessly deleted my big boys with those cracked Wraith Cannons, but that was a blame the army situation. The other time was some whiny kid with a necron army who kept complaining about my knights being tough as his Nightbringer just slowly killed them all. I really hate it when people complain about their Opponent's army being some sort of "OP" whilst they're actively winning the game
I don't really like playing against either variety of Knight EXCEPT for a couple games where I think the "Knight" player was secretly an Inquisition player in disguise because they were maxing out their Imperial Agents henchmen option. Those were fun, mainly because I could actually kill stuff, and because they could actually contest my objective play. Very nice. 10 out of 10, would play again.
It comes up in the Knights subReddit pretty frequently that we want more support for men-at-arms
@@JoshBorlase Honestly, I would love that for Knights players.
One thing I haven't mentioned when I last posted, mostly cause I forgot xD T Sons are a faction I really like but have bad experience playing against. They have so many shenanigans that it's easy to feel the got you factor if you don't play them often. I played them a few times at local tournaments and I never got a decent front up explanation of what they could do from the other players
Everyone at my shop disliked playing the Imperial Knights. It's pretty casual, and most of the people didn't even use terrain markers for ruins so they'd get blasted off the board by turn 2.
I tried explaining to others you need to play points and use terrain to block sight lines, but even in that case it doesn't feel like you're winning even when you are point wise because of how tanky they can be.
Seems to me, that people don't like playing against strong armies in general.
Everybody sounds like they want to be the ones coming to the table and plow through hordes of easy enemies.. yet they themselves avoid bringing strong units...
For me personally I love the challenge.. bring the baddest, strongest most OP army you have and I will try to overmanuever, overstrategize or-whaterver you..
Everyone loves being the strong army, I love versing them as it helps improve my strategy and playing style. Always good to beat that guy that stomped you 5x in a row, even better when it isn’t a fluke lol.
So Knights is the new Tau? Interesting...
I wonder what nerf will they get in the new codex?
inb4 wardogs just get totally removed (this changes nothing for casuals since they've been out of stock for forever)
Knights has been "Tau" in this context for years. I thought having 6-8 models would be economical and easy to transport, which is unfortunate for knights players, as coming up to a LGS and when asked what army you have, prompts you to pack back up and head home.
@@thetrashiestmannI guess they will remove any chance of Armiger spam either with points hike or make it limitations with 2 armiger per 1 big knight
Make this faction disappear😏
@@RevanR Yeah Armigers and Wardogs are the Chaos Cultist from 8th ed.
The weenies in the codex are just clearly mathematically superior in every way to the guys the codex is named after. They'll likely fix it by just straight up not allowing you to take them - offering no buffs in return, and then it's "see you next edition"
I have to say it often feels kinda bad in warhammer as a timmy.. (if we use MTG terminology).. I want to play with big beefy stuff.. no matter if I play my knights, my ironhands that only run tanks or my monster tyranids.. and I do get sighs quite often right when they see my army.
Here's my complete list of armies that i hate playing against.
1) Any army I lose against.
2) Refer to number 1.
3) This is a joke losing is part of the game. Git gud.
Imo the worst in 10th to play against were Custodes (pre codex). Not sure about the most fun, but it's definitely not Tyranids for me. As I play both factions whose army rules are affected by Battleshock (Tau and Guard), the inconsistency in GW rules pisses me off to no end (why are specifically those 2 are affected and no others) and playing agains Nids just reminds me of that. Especially Kauyon felt terrible because Shadow always got popped on turn 3 and more often than not neutered the entire turn.
Also, of course I'm a bit biased here, but I think the dislike of Tau is more historic than anything, because I don't think they are even in the top 5 most problematic armies in 10th (maybe not even in the top 10). Heck even Guard was more problematic, before they dumpstered artillery.
I play regularly against four other players, each running either chaos, dark angels, or world eaters. Let me tell you the dataslate balance for me, a lowly tyranid player, just made me a major threat when before I was a nuisance even with the tyrannosniper.
My roommate plays Tau. Oh every unit can ignore cover? And everything has at least AP2 with no cover save? And there's no range limit to spotting? Sheesh.
What kind of TAU is he playing? Tau struggles a lot with armor, ap2 is not that common.
Do you play on official terrain layouts or just set it up casually? I've found that optimised Tau lists without enough terrain can wipe out most of a Space Marine army in the first turn with all of its "ignores cover +1 to hit" nonsense, and it makes for a very unfun and uninteractive game, whereas with proper terrain placement their positioning becomes much harder and more precise.
Tau is severely limited by the official terrain layout, it's really not that overpowered.
Idk what tau hes playing that EVERYTHING has ap2
Tf are you talking about? My friend plays T'au, and they seem to really struggle with AP without going into railgun territory. Not to mention that they've been some of the most fair fights I've had in a long time, and this is coming from someone who plays CSM, Daemons, CK, and DG
I honestly had no idea guard was that popular! I’ve never played against them
Armies that are fun to play against when opponent is larping as a khorne berzerker:
Shadowboxing?
No way not this guy
THE NAILS ARE BITING
Your impact on Khorne’s chosen will be felt for years to come.
I love playing my Aeldari, though i lose most of the times but they are genuinely fun 😊, with every game I get slightly better...... SLIGHTLY BETTER.
I need to play my other armies more play time: Drukari i played twice, Grey Knights once and Mechanicus 1 time. I think they can be fun i just need to figure them out 😅as well just painting them.
I play knights and I can see why no one wants to play against them. Yes it isn't fun to just hit a giant bag of HP that doesn't get hurt much of the time. since I only really play casual games I most of the time don't use stratagems, or invul saves a majority of the time because then the person relies on dice and can deal good damage with many different weapons. Plus I try to help other people with remembering some of the things they can do to deal more damage. That's also why I prefer narrative games over regular ones, the stories of the games are better and it makes for some really cool moments
Im honestly surprised to see gsc so high. i wonder if this is a no one plays against us or just the gsc player attitudes similar to how ork players are just fun.
I only play against an Aeldari player. Phantasm and Fire And Fade are the bane of my existence.
I don't like playing against Black Templars. They just sit there, Judging me... o.0
Running pact bound zealots against the custodes is a treat cause if they use tanks you can hide them with the nurgle stratagem
People complain about knights because it’s easier to have a sook online than learn to counter an army that’s naturally skewed. I find things like (pre nerf) ironstorm infinitely more oppressive than knights
Knights literally goes two ways. You either take enough anti tank to win or you don’t. That’s it. It just isn’t fun. You can just show each other your lists and just decide there who wins without even playing.
For a lot of people the problem is not being able to field a balanced army with enough antitank to actually have a good game against Knights, especially with the toughness change making classic anti-tank options like Plasmas and Meltas wound even Armigers on 5s.
It's especially bad for all the newer/more casual SM players, who at best might have a Ballistus Dreadnought and maybe a couple lascannons/chainfists here and there.
@@thewalrus511 Objective Play?
@@thewalrus511but that’s not really true. Knights can struggle pretty substantially if you have good objective play. Sometimes with something like a battle line spam army you can just have more bodies on objectives and they can’t do anything if they don’t have the anti horde to clear everyone, whether you can or can’t actually destroy any knights
Lethal hits go a long way against knights as they struggle against most minuscule of ap
“Knights invuln saves are annoying” the 5+ that’s only on shooting attacks????
Rotate Ion Shields and the Lancers baked in 4++ are disgusting on that tough a model with so many wounds
Not only do we have at most 1/4th as many units as the opponent, but they're not as tanky as people think so you tend to lose what few units you have relatively quickly...
@@SneakyBeeBuzzBuzz 1 unit only...
Knights and Custodes.
I hate stat check armies, because they require no strategy to play with or against, only if you have the right tools.
Meltas against Orks is suboptimal, but you can win. Boltguns against knights is game over.
You honestly think it takes no skill to play a game about controlling the board with a faction that has half, or even a third, of the pieces the opponent does?
if u take ur head under ur arm and play with a knight army ure dead by turn 3.... atm knights r not as durable as they might seem
You've highlighted that you're unskilled my dude.
Maybe if your just blindly spreading shots into all of them with no paticular target. Massed small arms fire WILL damage knights as long as you have enough of it, lost count how many times I've lost knights to a bunch of guardsmen whaling on them with lasgun fire after being battered by other stuff
@@watergaming7543 And this is especially true in 10th since lots of things have lethal hits, lots of factions can get lethal and sustained on a 5+.
And that's even before you start counting all the anti-vehicle, anti-charachter and anti-walker things that knights simply have no answer to.
I hated fighting index sisters, because there were situations where you'd literally just not shoot, because it was unlikely that you'd fully destroy the unit, and giving them the buff just wasn't worth it.
That and being forced to fight a 20 point crusader squad with like 300 points of models was just awful.
Why does everyone hate the Aeldari? They have been nerfed into the ground and put out smaller armies than space marines, but are very squishy.
I lost 1500 points in turn 1 at the beginning of 10th edition from aldari going first. Some wounds never heal regardless of how they play now, I will never like playing against them. It is what it is
Residual hate from those first 3-6 months takes a long time to die.
It's weird. I had one game where I played against the worst cheese of what Eldar could bring at the start of 10th, and it's still one of the most memorable games I've had this edition for *good* reasons. Since then, I've heard all the crying and yet my games with Eldar have been consistently very good ones!
People let the worst of an army's rules and janky periods stick in their memory for a long time- I still get stick from people over how I played my Daemons in 6th- I'll *never* hear the end of the bloody 'screamer star.' XD
I have personally been run off of armies cuz I would pick one and then people would say they hate that army and I could not find any games in my area due to army hate. Really wish I didn't sell off my Guard army when I had it now cuz it's so expensive to get back into.
Necrons are my most unpopular opponent to face.
People hate fighting my admech army right up until they get into melee range, then they're having fun.