I have always felt it was more complicated then just blaming one side or the other. He definitely made a choice on top of the problems caused by others.
Agreed. The fact that he was found at a later age than what the Jedi order at the time wanted made it hard to conform to their somewhat flawed philosophy. The Jedi were not able to offer the counseling he needed, leading him to be open to exploitation by Palpatine. The keeping him in the dark a lot created more friction between him and the Jedi council. But his ego and inability to keep his emotions in control pushed over the edge.
Anakin made a choice, but it was not the choice he thought he was making. Essentially, he thought he was choosing between his work and his family. Between protecting the ones he loves and serving the Jedi Council. Palpatine deceived him into believing a false dichotomy, that serving the Jedi would mean the death of his family, whilst Yoda's belated poor advice about 'letting them go' did nothing to persuade him otherwise. Then add to that the clear hypocrisy of the Jedi Council asking him to spy on the Chancellor and then later Mace's ill-conceived decision to personally execute Palpatine whilst Anakin was stood there watching. And with the words 'He's too dangerous to be kept alive' an echo of what Palpatine had said about Dooku, that was just enough to tip the balance. And yes, the minute Anakin used the Dark Side to stop Mace, it began to totally consume him. The same way the Symbiote took control of Venom, he became the evil Darth Vader. Anakin was literally trapped behind that evil Dark mask, and although he hated what he had become, he hated who he used to be even more.
Excatly, all three came together, had the Jedi been more receptive of him (and had Qui Gon survived) he wouldn't have fallen, without Sheev's manipulation he wouldn't have fallen, and without his own desire for power and anger he wouldn't have fallen.
Exactly. Lucas did one of the best scenes ever when showing a character can choose between good and evil when Mace Windu was defeating Palpatine. Anakin knows this man is evil, he knows this man has lied to the entire galaxy, but in that moment, he chooses evil, when all he had to do was either standby or help Mace defeat the galaxy's most evil man. Lucas very clearly set up that scene so it rhymes with Vader's redemption scene, where the fate of the galaxy is being determined between Palpatine fighting a Jedi and putting Anakin there as the one to decide the galaxy's fate. Notice both Palpatine and Luke beg Anakin for help in the two scenes, except only one of those times does Anakin make the right decision.
Anakin was a victim for sure but i don’t think lucas ever intended for people to think “oh poor anakin” when vader walked on screen. Anakin was a victim of manipulation of all three even he tried to manipulate himself into being a good jedi and a good person. This is the story of a victim who decided to take control… he just chose horribly wrong.
George does refer to Anakin as a victim, so I think George wanted us to see Anakin as both. Yes, Anakin falls victim to Palpatine's manipulations and was left vulnerable because of his emotional state and upbringing. But in the end, Anakin is the one to make the decision to turn to the dark side. Even though in his heart, he knows it's wrong. He betrayed his friends and even caused the death of his wife. And he looks for someone to blame, but over time, he fully realizes that it was him. He even says he himself killed Anakin Skywalker in Obi-Wan Kenobi.
@matthewk4912 you talk about Anakin's choices, but consider how his choices came from a wish to do the right thing. It's explained in his response to Obi-wan in their Mustafar duel. When Obi-wan says to him that Chancellor Palpatine is evil. And Anakin of course already knew this, he was the one who reported on Palpatine to have him arrested after all. But he replied 'From my point of view the Jedi are evil'. So he felt he was choosing the lesser of two evils. This was the inevitable outcome of Palpatine's grooming and the Jedi's mishandling over many years. There was no one moment by itself where the Dark Side suddenly changed him, it was gradual. And the Jedi were meant to be his guardians, they should have protected him from Palpatine's influence from the start.
Anakin blames himself when his son asked him to leave Palpatine he answers “it’s too late for me” that’s a confession that he made a choice that when he reflected on it years later when the passion died down he knew was wrong
I do think the Jedi definitely midhandled Anakin, but at the same time, dropping the ball with one Jedi knight wouldn't normally lead to the downfall of the entire Jedi order and Galactic Republic. So many events had to converge for the Sith and Empire to tske over the galaxy.
Give the Sith credit. Their strategy worked. A lot of events would have prevented their fall had the Jedi been able to sense the Sith Master sitting in front of them with a smile. His powers shielded him from the Jedi even a foot away and I’d like to think it was the result of the long passing of knowledge from master to apprentice until Palpatine brought it home.
@PixelKatana except nothing that Palpatine accomplished was entirely of his own making. His manipulation was based on the weakness and corruption that already had existed in the Republic, the Senate, and the Jedi Order. Had it been at earlier times than the Prequel era, such evil would like not to have found such a secure foothold. The long history of the Jedi provides the proof.
@PixelKatana Which is wild, cause after a Millenia of preparation... they ruled the Galaxy for like, 25 years 😅 Palpatine created the Galactic Empire, and that was their strongest/largest Galactic power
It was the perfect storm. He was a victim of manipulation for sure, and the Jedi set the preconditions for that to happen, but he wasn't devoid of his own agency. Padme never would of wanted him to do what he did, even if it succeeded in saving her life, but he did it anyway because it was more about his fear of losing her than what she would've wanted.
You're right. It became more about protecting into protecting his own feelings from inevitable and common struggles like lose. It was a mistake on Lucas' part to focus so much on attachment as its an obscure philosophical mess about letting go that not many can grasp. Though I kinda get it, we are still doing so much explaining on the writers behalf. I theorized that the problem wasnt relationships, but relationships along with problematic mindsets or feelings. The romance should have been a sub plot to his pride which is depicted (or vocalized) at many points in different ways. Edit: and I think pride is what sets him apart from Luke, Kanan and Cal
@@ThreadBareHope1234 I believe Anakin loved Padme but it was more of a selfish way of fear of losing for himself and not for her. They would have been a better couple had he gotten therapy and left the Jedi order and she put boundaries on his sometimes controlling behavior. Both of them were thrust onto politics and duty at a young age and neither of them knew the proper way how do deal with relationships and communication since all they knew was keeping the galaxy safe and handling conflicts on the outside but the inside within themselves and each other. Padme had a better chance than Anakin since she grew up with a family and knew of healthy family relationships whereas he was a slave exposed to abuse and had to suppress emotions in the Jedi order which he couldn't handle. He should have walked away from the order and did work on himself before he could be a proper father and husband. That doesn't excuse his actions though and shows the tragedy of a couple not knowing how to deal with themselves and the pressures of double lives and ended up paying the price for it in the end
The story of Anakin’s fall could be a Greek tragedy, where heroes strive for greatness, but are brought low by a combination of fate and their own human flaws.
If only Anakin had of known the Jedi were plotting to take over earlier.... Some lesser talked about points i think are important here: - Palpatine didn't just manipulate Anakin via his "meetings", he literally orchestrated his downfall by manipulating the Jedi/political events. In ep 2 after the assassination attempt on Padme, Palpatine helps influence the decision for Anakin to go with Padme to protect her, at a time when Anakin is immature and plagued by feelings for her. They only ever got together because of Palpatine. - Mace Windu hated Anakin and was always an ass towards him, this along with Yoda's "ways" probably meant Anakin felt the 2 top Jedi masters didn't like him or didn't trust him or some kind of ill feelings were between them. Windu essentially spills the beans on this in ep 3 when he admits he doesn't trust Anakin and it's possible Anakin had sensed this his entire time with the Jedi. If Windu had of been away during the events of Coruscant and it had of been any other master instructing Anakin it could have played out very differently. Ultimately Windu got exactly what he deserved. - Anakin wasn't just in love with Padme, he was a father to be, still young 20's and probably had fatherly/protective instincts kicking in like crazy along with everything else going on. The moment Anakin relieves Windu of his hand, every Jedi is now his enemy and a threat to his family. This is why he immediately shifts to full evil mode and goes to destroy the Temple, and yeah its definitely a messed up thing, but this is why he kills the younglings - he either does it then or they will try to hunt him and his family down later. Overall its a complete sh!tstorm of events to go through, many people are to blame, but Anakin failed a test that probably 1 in a million could pass.
We must all take a form of responsibility for the actions we take. But like YT channel The Masked Man’s deep dive video into Vader states, Anakin’s obsessions are what lead to his downfall.
I'd say victim. As heroic and good natured as Anakin was he had so much against him. 1. There was a sith lord posing as a kind and compassionate old man grooming him since he arrived on Coruscant. 2. He was emotionally unable after being ripped away from his mother who he had formed a strong attachment to. Plus the Jedi didn't do anything to free her making him resent them when it was too late. They also refused to help him move past it essentially telling to get over it. 3. Being separate from his mother created a hole in his life one that his love for Padme filled but it became very possessive after her death. He couldn't lose her as well. The only thing keeping him together. 4. The Jedi treating him like crap and causing Ahsoka go leave the order only made things worse. Anakin's fall was inevitable it was just a matter of when enough was enough. Nothing short of Qui-Gon-Jinn's guidance could of prevented it.
I actually think that there is quite a bit of overlap between Anakin and Zuko form ATLA, just in reverse, at least in some points. Anakin has grown up to be a good and well meaning person, being surrounded by good people around him, like his mother or Jedi, and only a singular force has been trying to corrupt him over a long time. While Zuko grew up surrounded by mostly evil influence, and only small forces have been trying to steer him towards good, like his mother and uncle. Anakin because of the corruption fell to the dark side, while Zuko, you could say, fell to the light side thanks to mostly his uncle. So I think Anakin cannot be branded victim nor villain separately, but both at the same time, as he could have turned out completely good, if the circumstances were right, but he still chose to walk down this path, while he could have fought or rejected it.
The Jedi should've rescued his mom and told him "you still need to break off family ties, but at least you know she's safe." Anakin would've been grateful to the Jedi and avoided the dark side. Of course, that wouldn't make for much of a plot. Knowing his back story doesn't excuse what he did, but it does explain why.
Rescue her from what? She was a slave yes but ignoring the obvious morally wrongness of only freeing a slave because of nepotism instead of it being morally right to stop slavery, Shmi was safer with Watto than she was freed with the Lars Family. Tuskens don’t attack major settlements and give them all a wide berth. And the Jedi didn’t know she would be kidnapped.
@@emberfist8347Not to mention that Watto implanted tracking devices in all his slaves' bodies that would trigger an explosion if they moved beyond the range of his tracking transmitter, which would've killed Shmi. While it could be argued that the Jedi could've paid for her freedom, it's highly unlikely that Watto would've relented, considering he lost everything betting against Anakin in the podrace. And had the Jedi tried to free Shmi by force, Watto would've reported them to the Hutts, possibly sparking a political incident.
Ultimately, Anakin is responsible for his own actions and decisions. No one forced him to do anything. The circumstances he was in were not helpful, and in one case were directly detrimental, but none of it absolves him of his personal responsibility. The elements working against him were: - His childhood as a slave, and the sudden separation from his mother. - Due to how the Jedi approached attachments, no one (alive) in the Order had the knowledge or experience to properly counsel and guide Anakin through his struggles and feelings for Shmi and Padme. It is hinted that Qui-Gon may have been able to work on this, but obviously that was not to happen. - The concurrent expectations and skepticism around his status as The Chosen One. The put a lot of pressure to prove himself, and fed into his frustrations that he was not more powerful. - Palpatine’s manipulations and grooming, especially when Anakin was seeking father figures.
Another issue is that Anakin was not very open his troubles, especially during Revenge of Sith when speaking to Yoda. Anakin was very vague about what troubled and so Yoda couldn’t give him a very concrete answer due to Anakin’s vagueness. Jedi are allowed to talk about these feelings and be able to talk to their masters about it, but being vague about an issue will not give very clear answers.
It's not so easy to answer on that question, yes anakin choose to listen Palatine, yes Palatine manipulate him, and yes Jedi should help anakin. It's difficult to find a answer 😂
This video made me remember this quote from the Revenge of the Sith Novel: And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker. That it was all you. Is you. Only you. You did it. You killed her. You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself. . . It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith- Because now your self is all you will ever have. The Jedi order wasn't well suited for training a unique padawan like Anakin, and Palpatine did feed Anakin's ego and negatively influence him, but ultimately the choices Anakin made were done on his own volition, and the consequences fall on his shoulders.
Fault is shared. Pointing your finger at any one party is oversimplifying it. All parties are to blame. You did a fine job of explaining the Jedi order (including Yoda), Anakin himself, and Palps. I would like to add the following:' Obi-Wan: Insisted he'd train Anakin, despite sensing something was wrong with the kid, and being too young himself for such a responsibility. Probably also suspected Anakin's relationship with Padme and did nothing. Padme: Knowing entered a relationship with Anakin despite knowing it would be bad for the galaxy as a whole, while also ignoring red flags from Anakin. Captain Rex: Seemed to help Anakin cover up the relationship with Padme. Mace Windu: Was actively hostile towards Anakin, likely due to his chosen one status. Dooku: Willing and knowingly did actions to push the dark side out of Anakin, similar to Palps on a smaller scale. Watto: I'm sure growing up a slave didn't help Anakin develop healthy emotions. The Republic Itself: Its complacency was part of what led to Anakin being a slave in the first place, and also was partially responsible for the formation of the separatists, and the war that opened the door for Palpatine to step through. The Tuskens: Anakin's mother dying was a big step in his turn. I'm sure there's a bunch I missed as well.
@@emberfist8347there was nothing ‘wrong’ with Anakin when he was first brought to the Temple!! He was a fundamentally good kid!! It was the Jedis hubris and inability to adapt to his uniqueness, his emotional attachments (starting with being separated from a loving mother), which forced those (ignored) feelings to manifest into something more problematic!! And quite frankly the Jedi counsels attitude to that 8 year old child who stood before them, was quite appalling!! More importantly Palpatine took advantage of their neglect by ensuring that he provided the parental/protective figure Anakin so desperately needed and desired!!🤷🏻♀️
The Jedi aren’t wrong and never had hubris, Anakin just struggled to follow their ways. The Jedi are a monk order who values discipline in their ways and adherence to the Force. Which Anakin struggled to display on many occasions. It’s more of the fact that Anakin has difficultly of adapting to this strict way of life and thinking due to his past(probably a reason why the Jedi were hesitant to train him.) The Jedi we’re unable to help Anakin at least what was shown in episode 3 was because Anakin was being very vague and trying to hide his marriage. So, Yoda not really knowing a lot have Anakin a textbook Jedi answer, abiding by the Code and freeing oneself to attachments.
To determine how much blame anyone should have in Anakin falling, you only need to ask, if it was someone else, would they have done what he did given the same circumstances. My thoughts on this is that most people would be hard pressed to do much worse than he did. Anakin's circumstances certainly sucked and the people around him didn't help but, at the end of the day, he did this to himself.
All of this could've been avoided if Anakin stepped down as a Jedi and just lived with his wife, doing literally anything else. It's not as if the Jedi are not allowed to do that. There's an entire Jedi Corp comprised of the graduates who did not pass their trials or chose not to live the rigorous life of a Jedi. They do good work, but, you know, without all the lightsabers and fighting. Living a quiet life with my loving wife and future children, or live a double life of danger and lies? I would've chosen the former in a heartbeat.
Hey Thor, I think I may understand attachments a bit more. Maybe. It's all in how you feel about them. For instance, Anakin was so afraid of losing Padme, he put his feelings for her over the greater good. I think, if Anakin had one friend there, not Palpatine, to talk to about his fears, he wouldn't have allowed his fear of loss to overtake him. Throughout the war, his attachment to Padme was regular. She did her work, he did his. But Palpatine wanted Anakin isolated from his friends. He made sure Obi-Wan and Anakin were separate. He poisoned Anakin's mind away from the Jedi. If Yoda had used different words, he might have been able to break through some of Palpatine's manipulations.
I agree with parts, disagree with others. For starters, TCW shows us Anakin and Padme's relationship was unhealthy. It was built on shaky grounds to begin with, and Anakin being infamously impulsive and quick to anger could create serious problems. However, the thing about Anakin having a friend there to guide them in the right direction? Spot-on. That's the entire point of Qui-Gon Jinn. He was the father figure that Anakin needed, and his death was a major factor in the fates of Anakin, the Jedi, and the galaxy. The duel is named what it is for a reason.
It is more if Anakin listened to Yoda. Yoda told Anakin what he needed to learn which is that death is a part of life. If Anakin took that lesson to heart, he wouldn’t have turned and Padme would still be alive.
But Anakin did have a friend. Obi-Wan. They were more than friends, they were brothers. Palatine sure had a hand in poisoning Anakin's relationship with the Jedi Order, but Obi-Wan has always been there for him. Anakin *chose* not to confess to his best friend, mentor and brother-in-arms. It was his choice. There were many factors contributing to his downfall, but lack of a friend was not one of them.
@@arcanefeline My friend, you missed the whole point of having Obi-Wan go to Utapau. Palpatine knew the bond between Obi-Wan and Anakin was strong. He had to get Obi-Wan out of the way so that his voice was the only one Anakin heard. If Obi-Wan was nearby, he could have told him. Also Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin and the Republic for years. He had been using subtle comments to make the Jedi seem bad even when he was promoting the Clones. The whole reason Obi-Wan and Anakin were involved in the Battle of Coruscant was Palpatine wanted Anakin there. Obi-Wan was the tag along. Dooku was meant to kill Obi-Wan, but he couldn't bring himself to do it.
Speaking of Anakin I was just watching somebody play Fallen Order for the first time and I loved it lol. I have already played it but just love seeing that everybody reacts to Vader showing up the same way 🤣
This is a complicated one, I'd say Anakin is mostly a victim of circumstances as well as playing a part in his own downfall. While his extremely high power and potential made him arrogant and impulsive, leading him to make disastrous choices, there were several other factors at play. Such as the Jedi Council treating him poorly, not trusting him enough, their actions regarding Ahsoka, and the fact the Jedi lost their way along with Palpatine using Anakin's loneliness and struggles to manipulate him. All of these contribute to Anakin basically being a ticking bomb.
Exactly. I blame Palpatine the most. He was orchestrating everything in the shadows to weaken the republic and the Jedi and even more so Anakin himself acting like a father figure for him and all. Not a good father figure but of course Anakin wouldn't know the difference.
The Jedi didn’t lose their way and with Ahsoka they did what any other organization would do. They suspended her membership while they investigated the matter. And the Council didn’t treat Anakin poorly but they did treat him like any other Jedi. Ki-Adi-Mundi was also only a Jedi Knight when he was on the Jedi Council in Episode I for the same reason as Anakin he didn’t even have a Padawan yet.
@@emberfist8347 They did lose their way. They went from being peacekeepers of the galaxy, to serving only the interests of the stagnating Republic and fighting a war they had no place in. A war while orchestrated by Palpatine, painted the Jedi Order as a whole in a bad light. And no, contrary to your rhetoric Ahsoka was treated poorly as was Anakin. With Ahsoka, apart from Anakin and maybe Obi Wan, Plo Koon and Yoda, they expelled her and were happy to put her on trial in the Republic courts. Her punishment would have resulted in execution considering it was a time of war. It was only because of Anakin's investigation leading it to be Barriss Offee who bombed the temple, proving Ahsoka,s innocence. The Jedi Council asked her to return, and offered her the rank of Jedi Knight, but only a few of them properly apologized to her. Mace Windu seemed completely unapologetic for the treatment Ahsoka received, and instead claimed that it was all the will of the force. However, Ahsoka refused to return and walked away. That's one example which proved the Jedi were not following the will of the force.
@@emberfist8347 Contrary to your rhetoric again, the Jedi council did poorly treat Anakin. When Qui Gon brought him before the council as a literal child, did Anakin really show any tendencies towards the dark side? No. But the council still rejected him. The reason? They were afraid of him. Simply put they saw in Anakin a power so strong they were afraid they could not control him. Yoda had sensed danger in training him, which was true, but I’ll address that in a minute. Ultimately the council, filled with fully trained Jedi masters, looked at an untrained child and saw a threat. Now, as I mentioned, Yoda and the council did see danger in Anakin’s future. But instead of doing anything to help him stay on the right path, they gave him the push he needed to turn. Since Anakin was eleven years old, the majority of the people around him distrusted him. They pulled this kid out of slavery, away from his mother and everyone he knew, and dropped him in an unfamiliar setting on a completely different planet. He was a kid. The Jedi, with the exception of Obi Wan (and Qui Gon before he died), openly distrusted and even disliked Anakin. So who did he turn to? Who did this eleven year old kid have looking out for him? Palpatine! Palpatine, who obviously knew what Anakin would be capable of, swooped in and took Anakin under his wing. He was a friend and a mentor where there was none. Now, Anakin was arrogant, this is true. And he did feel a pull to the dark side. But I would argue that that both his arrogance and the pull to the dark side were accentuated because of the way the council treated him. The council tried to limit Anakin at every turn. They wanted to hold him back. Even Obi Wan, who really was looking out for Anakin, was too closely affiliated with the council to be seen as a true friend to Anakin. This is especially clear in Episode 3. In Anakin’s mind, Palpatine was one of his only true friends. Then Anakin breaks an important Jedi rule: he falls in love and gets married! Yes, he made this decision himself. But why? Because Padme was one of the only other people who didn’t see Anakin as a tool they could use or a problem to solve. She loved Anakin for who he was. Anakin naturally gravitated towards her because she truly cared. Then the council got downright insulting with Anakin. Under the guidance of Palpatine, who Anakin genuinely saw as a friend and mentor, Anakin expressed his wish to join the Jedi council. The council practically berated Anakin for this, expressing their distaste for senate interference in Jedi affairs. Then they put Anakin on the council and announce, in front of the entire council, that he will not be promoted to Jedi master. This understandably makes Anakin angry. Later, as if to rub salt in the wound, when Anakin suggests he goes on a mission (again at Palpatine’s guidance), he is basically told “we want a real Jedi master to handle this”. Who is chosen? Obi Wan. In the midst of all this Anakin is told he is only on the council so he can spy on his good friend for the council, which was also against the Jedi code. Obi Wan is the only one who tries to help Anakin and show him genuine care, but Obi Wan is also on the council himself. At this point Obi Wan is too close to the council for Anakin. At no point during any of Anakin’s training did anyone but Obi Wan try to help him manage his emotions, navigate the council, of handle any of the other crap the Jedi council threw at him. You’d think if Yoda and the other Jedi masters were so concerned about Anakin’s future they would’ve done more to help him not turn to the dark side. By now the stage was basically set for Anakin to become a Sith. He allowed his emotions to take over, he was spurned by everyone around him (more or less), and he feared for Padme’s life. But when Palpatine revealed himself to be a Sith Anakin did not immediately join. He could’ve. It would’ve been so simple, the two of them were entirely alone. But instead Anakin turns Palpatine in, horrified to discover he was actually a Sith Lord. But what does Mace Windu say? “If you’re right, you’ll have earned my trust”. He still insults Anakin and makes it clear he is seen as something “other”. When Anakin follows Windu and discovers Windu is going to remorselessly execute Palpatine, against Jedi code, Anakin finally snaps. In the loss of Palpatine, he would lose everyone who actually cared about him. Padme and Palpatine would die, leaving Anakin alone in the world. That is the moment when Anakin truly turns. Not before. If the council had shown Anakin any amount of kindness, respect, or concern I seriously doubt if he would’ve turned to the dark side. His turning was as much a result of the council’s treatment and using of Anakin for their own designs as it was Palpatine’s influence.
@@theimperialist2686 So let me get this straight peacekeepers of the galaxy should help protect the *Galactic* Republic? And the Jedi had a place in the Clone Wars. Evil triumphs when the good people do nothing which is what you are advocating. Particularly when this was the first large-scale conflict in a millennia. Also the Jedi were following the will of the force. It works in mysterious ways after all. And they didn't investigate because it wasn't their perview. It was under military jurisdiction not theirs.
I would say all three but mainly Anakin and Palps. If Anakin slowed down for a moment, realized Palps had manipulated him for the very second they met during TPM and likely is still manipulating him, I think things would have ended quite differently. Anakin ultimately had a noble goal, to save a loved one. It was how he decided to achieve it that was wrong.
You're right. It started out with protecting her, and I personally think it devolved into protecting his own feelings from inevitable and common struggles like lose. It was a mistake on Lucas' part to focus so much on attachment as its an obscure philosophical mess about letting go that not many can grasp. Though I kinda get it, we are still doing so much explaining on the writers behalf. I theorized that the problem wasnt relationships, but relationships along with problematic mindsets or feelings. The romance should have been a sub plot to his pride which is depicted (or vocalized) at many points in different ways. Edit: and I think Pride is what sets him apart from Kanan, Luke, and Cal.
@@ThreadBareHope1234 Exactly. A healthy marriage is based on unconditional love and respect between partners. Padme and Anakin's relationship was NOT healthy and he was selfish about it. Falling in love and romance are not a bad thing, it's using it in a selfish way that's bad and I wish the Jedi would have realized it.
Very nice piece, Thor. An individual and their choices drive their destiny - a hard truth we all have to face. Conquering this dilemma or not makes us heroes in our own way.
Nothing at all to do with the Jedis hubris, his personal circumstances/childhood, Palpatines manipulation, changes in the force and the ongoing war?!! His own failings certainly contributed to his downfall.. but it being entirely Anakins fault?! Now that’s another thing…🤷🏻♀️
I think Yoda was the most honest Jedi with Anakin and also the most coherent one. Yoda not only spoke about losing someone in particular when talking about "letting go" to Anakin, but also he was refering to status, bureaucratic positions, and the like which secure power and access to resources within te context of the galactic structures (the Republic and the Jedi Order). Don't forget: Yoda himself replied to Mace Windu's idea of ploting a coup against Palpatine because it could be worse ("To a dark place that line of thought might carry us"). In the end, that actually happened and Yoda had to flee along with letting go his old life at the core of the galaxy to hide and live like a hermit. I think the issue is even deeper just to treat it in an overly emotional manner or as inter-person relations solely. The issue concerns also objective relations mediated by things and power structures. Now: regarding the issue, Anakin was mostly a victim with a great deal of decision though and Vader was a villain with a sense of guilty for believing in Sidious/Palpatine in the first place. That is why Luke succeded where Anakin failed: Luke was not seduced by power or money when confronted (twice) Vader, and he could not be turned to the dark side as expected by the emperor.
Domestic abusers are often victims of abuse themselves, specifically as a child. There is a point where the victim becomes the perpetrator, aka the villain. He was both.
It’s tough. Definitely a situation where many factors played into it. I will put the most blame on Palpatine. Because he had the most motivated effort to lead to Anakin’s fall. And I think intent matters. Anakin didn’t want to make bad decisions. But he owns the ones he made. And the Jedi were incompetent and made errors. But they certainly wanted a different result. All forces came together in the worst way.
While I don't think things should ever be black or white regarding Anakin's fall, I do believe that a lack of strong editing in the prequel films doesn't help the Jedi in the argument. One simple edit in episode II that would change nothing about the film, but would make the Jedi look far better would be to add some passing dialogue that the Jedi had gone back and freed Shmi from slavery. You could have had it where Anakin had a secret communicator, provided by Palpatine if you wanted to goose up their relationship, that he used to stay in contact with her and that between the lack of her responding to the communicator combined with his visions, he ended up going to Tatooine and everything else played out more or less the same minus a scene with Watto. This would have shown even more strongly the breakdown of Anakin's training in the Jedi way and shown that the Jedi don't turn a blind eye to injustice. On a side note with the issue of control, this is where I wish George would have expanded on his idea of Midi-chlorians. Instead of being a stagnant power level, I wish it had just been a starting point that training that either Jedi or Sith teaching would then cause the creatures to grow and multiply. This could have been used to show a core difference in the teachings where the Jedi took a slower more controlled/spiritual growth path while the Sith would let them bloom out of control like an infection, with the goal of making them stronger by culling the weak. It would explain why the dark side seems so much stronger, but so many fail as the growth of the Midi-chlorians at such a rapid rate would break down the body faster. You could add a pleasurable/intoxicating element to the sudden growth which would further help to solidify why in a lot of media when someone turns to the dark side we see such a shift in their personalities.
Ah the question that can always be debated about Anakin. Personally I think Anakin's fall was the whole package between the Jedi being corrupted, padme and the clone wars , his fall was inevitable. Do I think qui Gon would have prevented him from falling to the dark side , YES. I mean even to an extent I think obi wan could have gotten through to him , but only obi wan after revenge of the sith, in terms of where the character is. Obi wan lacked in a couple ways Anakin needed but ultimately they were brothers essentially. I think if obi wan had just been completely honest about his relationship with Satine, in the clone wars, I think I would have put Anakin a lot closer to the light side during revenge of the sith . There's one scene in particular that I think this conversation would have been the perfect moment to address it , think it's a season 6 episode but Anakin and obi wan are talking in one of the temple chambers and obi pretty much confirms he knows about padme and Anakin (if you know the scene you know what I'm talking about) , but Anakin ultimately says there's nothing there. After that I think that's where obi wan opening up to him about his relationship with Satine and how close he was to leaving the Jedi for her , I think that alone could have saved him , may not have prevented order 66 but if they dueld on Mustafar, I think Anakin could have been pulled back to the light there .
I fell like you could have added something else to this argument. Anakin was THE chosen one. This would go to anyone's head, but with Anakin, it definitely had an impact on his life.
Anakin had the choice of becoming a Jedi renunciate at any point, if he wanted to be with Padme in episode 3.He wouldn’t have to stop serving in the clone wars either, he’s best friends with admiral Yularen, serving as part of the navy was always a possibility.
>Thor says only Anakin fucked up and turned to the dark side in the entirety of Jedi history >Every other fallen Jedi to the dark side/turned Sith: “What the F Bro?!?!?”
The bulk of the responsibility for Anakin's fall comes back to Anakin. One can argue that Palpatine manipulated him... and there is no denying that Palpatine pulled those sorts of tricks, but not every action was a result of Palpatine's manipulations... Some of it comes from Anakin wanting to be a "man of action." To see a villain or something wrong, and then immediately jump to "oh, there's a bad guy, I must smite him." It's action without thinking. Look to the start of the cantina scene in "Attack of the Clones." Anakin wants to rush in after the bounty hunter and has to be reminded to think by Obi Wan that the target had gone into hide, not to fight or run away. Had Obi Wan not showed up, it's quite possible that Anakin would have run through the building and gone out a back door looking for someone running and missing that the target WASN'T running. That's that sign of that issue in Anakin's character... and came out without Palpatine even being there. Now, one could argue that Palpatine was ultimately behind the attempts to kill Padme... and that'd probably be true but given her place in the Republic and the timeframe... it's also quite plausible that that would be coincidence as well. For while Palpatine was a master manipulator, that doesn't necessarily mean that things went perfectly for him. After all, we see in the Clone Wars series that some of Palpatine's plans don't go exactly as he hoped. And it should also be noted that later in "Attack of the Clones," Anakin ultimately favors a form of government where "someone wise" forces the galaxy to do what is in the best interests of the people at large... with Padme says to his face "sounds like a dictatorship." But Palpatine wasn't there for that picnic... So, while Palpatine certainly did things to fuel Anakin's ego... we need to note that Anakin through the prequel trilogy repeatedly showed a lot of negative character traits that were bound to make him easy to manipulate and he never truly addressed those issues. Whenever anyone said anything remotely critical of Palpatine, regardless of what it was, Anakin was quit to rush to Palpatine's defense, regardless of the issue. The Jedi give the warning that he's stayed in office beyond the limit of his term and Anakin answers, "he's not a bad man." And in "Revenge of the Sith" when opinions are voiced that worry over the executive powers that Palpatine was taking, it was defended as a faster means to end the war. Palpatine wasn't there for this, yet Anakin is rapidly providing a defense for Palpatine's actions... despite the fact that initially the comments weren't necessarily THAT critical. Now, while I'd argue that the Jedi had their flaws in the specifics in how they dealt with attachments, that doesn't necessarily mean that Palpatine wouldn't be able to find some other avenue of manipulation if the Jedi's rules weren't there, or that Anakin would just jump to do whatever Palpatine commanded of him, regardless of what it was.
Anakin is both and I feel the Jedi are 1/3 the reason he fell to the dark side, the other 1/3s being Anakin and Palpatine. I don’t feel the Jedi ever addressed the issue of Anakin’s past. Allowed him to be around Palpatine which is weird. Where not the best when it came to understanding emotions. When Anakin is out on the Council they could have told him their plan to have him spy on Palpatine and all that before telling him they’re not making him a master. The story lays out that he may be the Chosen One and they don’t help his mom. In Legends she even contacted the Temple to tell Anakin she was free and they refused Shmi’s call. It’s bunkers to me that a group like the Jedi who are supposed to be compassionate would somehow interfere with Anakin talking with his mom. AOTC or the novel version never explain why they didn’t talk. I can’t imagine Shmi wouldn’t want Anakin to know she was free and in the novel she would look up at the stars hoping a ship would land at the farm with Anakin aboard. How would he have found her? Anything could happen to Watto. I’ve also wondered if Cliegg or Owen ever sent their own mission about what happened to Shmi and Yoda and Mace didn’t say anything. They could even have told Obi-Wan and instructed him to tell Anakin that dreams will pass in time. I honestly can’t say if Obi-Wan knew something was wrong with Anakin’s mom he’d do anything about it. I say this because as far as the movies go the Jedi should still think she’s a slave. I’m not just repeating what Filoni says Qui-Gon. I have wonder if he could have done something to prevent Anakin’s fall. Before TPM there was no idea that someone else could have been Anakin’s master and that just opens up a new set of possibilities. In TPM novel that came out with the movie Qui-Gon thinks about how he is closer to the living Force and thus able to empathize with Anakin in ways other Jedi would discourage because they are closer to the unifying Force. Qui-Gon says neither approach is wrong but him being a different kind of Jedi has been there since the beginning. The full quote from The Phantom Menace novel: The Jedi folded his arms over his broad chest. The Force was a complex and difficult concept. The Force was rooted in the balance of all things, and every movement within its flow risked an upsetting of that balance. A Jedi sought to keep the balance in place, to move in concert to its pace and will. But the Force existed on more than one plane, and achieving mastery of its multiple passages was a lifetime’s work. Or more. He knew his own weakness. He was too close to the life Force when he should have been more attentive to the unifying Force. He found himself reaching out to the creatures of the present, to those living in the here and now. He had less regard for the past or the future, to the creatures that had or would occupy those times and spaces. It was the life Force that bound him, that gave him heart and mind and spirit. So it was he empathized with Anakin Skywalker in ways that other Jedi would discourage, finding in this boy a promise he could not ignore. Obi-Wan would see the boy and Jar Jar in the same light-useless burdens, pointless projects, unnecessary distractions. Obi-Wan was grounded in the need to focus on the larger picture, on the unifying Force. He lacked Qui-Gon’s intuitive nature. He lacked his teacher’s compassion for and interest in all living things. He did not see the same things Qui-Gon saw. Qui-Gon sighed. This was not a criticism, only an observation. Who was to say that either of them was the better for how they interpreted the demands of the Force? But it placed them at odds sometimes, and more often than not it was Obi-Wan’s position the Council supported, not Qui-Gon’s. It would be that way again, he knew. Many times. But this would not deter him from doing what he believed he must. He would know the truth about Anakin Skywalker. He would discover his place in the Force, both living and unifying. He would learn who this boy was meant to be. Minutes later, he was stretched out on the floor, asleep.
People misunderstand the jedi in the same way they do with buddhism, being a buddhist is about feeling your emotions deeply but understanding you are not your thoughts and feelings, you are the observer, the best way to think of it is imagine your mind as the sky and clouds as feelings the clouds/feelings come and go but the sky/your mind is eternal and ever present and doesnt get effected by the clouds/feelings
You make great points about this. It certainly is a complicated question. I think it is made more complicated by the victim OR villain dichotomy. When he is, clearly, both. We seem to be under the impression that those with some sort of victim status cannot be villains in their own right. While, Anakin might be a victim in the context of his fall (which I would argue happens in the moment when he turns on Mace Windu), he is a villain in all that happens subsequently. Up to the moment he pitches Palpatine down the shift, everything he does is with villainous motivation. One can understand how his fall should come to be... but that does not excuse what he does after.
In answer to the title, its all three. If the Jedi were able to be more flexible and empathetic to accommodate Anakin's unique circumstances he wouldn't have fallen. If Palpatine hadn't gotten his claws into him he wouldn't have fallen. If Anakin had learned to overcome his flaws he wouldn't have fallen.
Overall, victim, but both really. Palps definitely did a lot of work behind the scenes to make sure Anakin was off balance - imagine if any of the assassination attempts on Padme at the beginning of episode 2 had worked, for example? There's no way Palpers wasn't involved in them at least a little. The Jedi order could have done more to help him too - freeing his mother from slavery for example, would have been a fantastic choice, even if they were kept apart afterwards. I'm sure their reasoning for not doing that was fine though, from a certain point of view... However, once Anakin thought he was beyond redemption, he is the villain. He could have simply run from his title, fled courscant and become another refugee of order 66. If he never drew his blade against the order, still victim. Right up until the end of the duel with Obi Wan, i think he could have pulled back from the dark side and accepted his actions and accepted punishment and tried to make amends for them. When he goes from rightous fury to burning hate, he's lost and fully the villain, but still a victim.
I can't decide if George Lucas is incompetent at subtext or a genius? Obviously, Anakin is under Palpatine's influence from the moment they meet at the end of The Phantom Menace. He is being manipulated subtly by a very patient Dark Lord of the Sith just as the rest of the Jedi order is.
Anakin's story is at the core a human story: from wide eyed innocent child having to leave mother behind to thrill seeking youth & impassioned adulthood. His CHOICE (good call there Thor) at the crucial moment is what deviated his otherwise normal human story into a hellish realm that he convinced himself he couldn't escape. Twas only the blinding light of his son's selfless dedication that allowed him to be redeemed in any capacity, and any redemption for such a monster is certainly a happy ending.
The Jedi I feel like lacked perspective, which I feel like is something that's intentional with how Obi Wan talks about points of view in IV, the Jedi are definitely portrayed as having a singular mindset and oblivious to their shortcomings which allowed them to be subverted. They lacked perspective on Anakin, and didn't really trust Qui Gon and his wishes, so when they trained Anakin they were reluctant and they were much harder on him than other Padawans. While I understand their hesitancy to make him a master, the real thing that bothered Anakin I think there was he knew they didn't trust him at all, and when you have people keeping you at a distance it makes you resent them more, especially when they don't really want to understand whats going on. What nails the tragedy of it is he was so close to sticking to the light side, telling Windu about Palpatine, if he had stuck to that, things would be very different, and it was that decision to kill Mace Windu, was his own decision, not anyone elses, that sealed his fate. It wasnt palpatines strings or the Jedi's coldness, it was his own, childish impulse.
I really do believe that the complication to this question really depends on the person answering. What is their personal story they’re strong. For me and my part I’ve gone through a lot of stuff and overcome a lot of stuff so I can see how it’s complicated. However despite all of that he is the villain. The reason why is because of his entitlements. He spent half of his life believing he’s the chosen one is better and stronger and faster than the other and JeTaun. That instilled in him a sense of entitlement and hubris. He willfully and deliberately chose to not be humble to not be meek because it wasn’t exciting. And in that he has chosen the Darkside. He has chosen to turn away from all teachings. He willfully deliberately lied about his marriage and his love. He’s our ex of evil. And I think that’s why he was able to be sweet. Palpa teen in the safe so that evil in him and that they can extract him for his wealth and his resources which was the power of the force. Because no matter how strong he was as a fortune JoJo in as a Jedi, Anakin Skywalker was weak. His emotional and spiritual status never wavered from his 10 year old self. The trauma they experienced in his freedom stunted his growth.
1) The Jedi for already considering Anakin a problem child after sensing some darkness 2) Palpatine for manipulating him for the last 13 years 3) And Anakin who at the end of the day was not held at lightsaber point and chose to be Palpatine’s apprentice
@@jaieregilmore971 To be fair the Jedi Code is also what pushed Dooku towards the Dark Side, it was heavily flawed. Anakin NEEDED attachments, he was born a slave, he needed people around him who actually cared. The problem is Anakin needed one thing the Jedi seemingly don't believe in, therapy.
@@jaieregilmore971 The thing is, the Jedi KNOW the Dark Side wasn't worth it, and Dooku's intention was to betray Sidious, the problem being that if you join the dark side it corrupts your mind if you stay on it for too long.
They didn’t sense darkness when he was a child!! There was none!! They feared the prophecy and what it meant for the Jedi!! And in the end it became a self fulfilling prophecy…🤷🏻♀️
Palpatine was so good at manipulation, he even convinced the fans that it's the Jedi's fault Anakin became a Dark Jedi. That's true, Anakin could always walk away as a Jedi if he wanted. He just didnt because... I'm not sure.
Still bothers me that many think this way. "Villain or victim?" Since when did those become mutually exclusive? Most real-world villains were decent kids once. Doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their actions.
All you said is true as reasons why this happened. But I say that Anakin was a bit self-centered He thought he was a bit better then the others. So Palpatine used that and made him argue that he deserved to be in the Jedi Council. He also couldn't listening in what was said Mace said if it was true that Palpatine was the Sith lord, he would rethink his belief in him ( or something) So if he had stayed and not followed Mace he might have gotten a place in the council. So i say Anakins self centered mind was the reason
A slave has nothing. A slave is nothing. A slave - unlike the poor man, who does not know if he will eat tomorrow - does not know what he will do tomorrow. His life, his existence, everything he cares for is nothing. All is subsumed to his master's life, existence, and cares. Therefore, a slave becoming a Jedi and gaining free agency, is more at risk of falling to the dark side than anyone. The imbalance of power is shifted so starkly - like a vacuum suddenly exposed to air - that great storms are created in the human heart and mind. Each of us should ask ourselves this: "Were I in his place, would I do any better, or any differently?"
Anakin is definitely a tragic villain who made horrible choices thanks in no small part to both the state of the current Jedi system during the prequels as well as Palpatine's manipulation. That said, one of the main turning points of him leading to the wrong path was when he himself decided to slaughter all of the Tusken raiders, even those who had nothing to do with what happened to his mother. That kind of trauma definitely left a huge impact into his psyche eventually making him more paranoid that he might lose Padme too. All ot took was Palpatine's false promises and the council's rigid structure at that time to finally turn him to the dark side.
4:38 Ah yes, these problems NEVER came up and saw dozens of not hundreds of jedi fall to the dark side in ANY part of the history of the Jedi. Neverrrrr~ 🤣🤣🤣
I completely agree with your take kinda hate all the Jedi hate going around the fandom especially when you got so much better things to point to than shit people make up
I think one of the key things that makes it so that Anakin is to blame is the dishonesty he lived by for years. He lied to his friends and mentors in the Jedi order for years. That wears on a person even in the real world but it is also a path to the dark side.
Actually Obi Wan already knew about Anakin and Padme during the clone wars even before episode three. But he saw how happy she made Anakin, and he didn’t want to take that away from him. Being the chosen one Anakin was too important to the Jedi, he also felt an obligation to them in spite of keeping a big secret from them. However Obi Wan and the Jedi once deceived Anakin during the clone wars by making it seem that Obi Wan has been killed. Also they didn’t believe in Ashoka’s innocence, and they threw her under the bus just to maintain their image.
@@jmwilliamsart very little of that matters to what I said. Obi-Wan knowing doesn't change the fact that Anakin was lying since the first day of the Clone Wars. Those lies take a psychological toll. And it was made fairly clear that Padme didn't know that Obi-Wan knew in RotS until he said something about the pregnancy.
He was so easy to manipulate, you wonder why he was the "chosen one" But on the other hand now we have a clear reason for the Jedi only taking infants instead of people on the edge of puberty. So really Qui Gon is to blame for breaking well established procedure. I kid, Anakin should be a man and shoulder responsibility for his behavior. Do the honorable thing and turn his lightsabre on under his chin like I've seen in some hilarious videos.
Both. A victim of "fate" and a villain to his victims. It all started because, for centuries, Yoda denied his own darkside before accepting it during his encounter with the Wills.
Is Anakin a victim? Yes. He's a victim of Palpatine's manipulation and abuse. He and his mother were victims of slavery. But when it comes to his decision to commit the Tusken Massacre? To take on the name Vader, to massacre the Jedi, young and old and all the crimes he did through the OT? That is on him. He knew what he was doing was wrong and chose to do it anyway. He knew he had to face his own fears, work on his flaws to be a better person but chose the easier path Palpatine offered. He can be both a victim and a villain. Lucas points this out almost every time he talks about Anakin's fall. That ultimately, he was responsible for it. Lucas knew he was going to lose a certain demographic of people because they expected Anakin to be one of two things: An evil little boy from the get go, which TPM disproves. Or, to suffer some great betrayal that pushed him over the edge in ROTS. But that's not what happened or the story Lucas wanted to tell. To quote him specifically: "They wanted a real betrayal, such as, ‘You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you.’ They didn't understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine." This is also why I don't factor in the Jedi because in all of Lucas' quotes on the subject he never once mentions the Jedi have a part in it. It's always about Anakin himself and Palpatine. And I think the films support that. Maybe not in a perfect way but it's there.
So you say fans back then wanted The Last Jedi and for Obi-Wan to be an attempted murderer? 😂 Sometimes I think Lucas doesn't understand what fans want.
@user-yq9im9dk9z That quote was from the Making of Revenge of the Sith book. This was after he'd shown the story to some people including Speilberg. They were having trouble understanding why Anakin fell. And that's something that was brought up. I don't think fans wanted Obi-Wan to be a murderer or whatever else. But it is easier to understand why some when off the deep end if they felt betrayed. It's a common enough trope. Now as for Lucas knowing what fans want I don't think he cared. In the same section he says: "Fortunately, Steven confirmed that most of everything was working. So, I may lose a certain demographic-maybe, maybe not. But I had to make a decision, and I decided that I'm not going to alter the film to make it more commercial or marketable. I have to be true to my vision, which is thirty years old, but I have to be true to it."
Anakin was just a poor manipulated pawn. He wasn't "seduced by the dark side". He was just doing what Palpatine told him would save Padme. That's what I hate so much about the prequels. Anakin's harrowing, fabled fall to the dark side that we all wondered about, was just him being manipulated.
What always bothers me about the prequels is how they mostly fail to show what Anakin must have been going through. To get an inkling of that you have to read the novelizations of the movies... maybe the _Darth Plagueis_ novel (for context) and all of the CW cartoons I guess. It's a big canvas.
@@benclark4823 I guess you never heard of the difference between "show" and "tell". The additional sources I mentioned add depth and detail absent from the movies, sorry if that's beyond you.
@@Raygo. The "prequels are awesome" cult can't be reasoned with. They take it personally when we have legitimate criticisms of their boring, bloated, terribly written trilogy.
I don't think Anakin was a Villain, nor do I think he was a Victim. Villainy implies evil intent, but his actions were to save someone he loved (in his mind). A victim is someone who is used, but here he knew what he was getting into. When faced with an unwinnable situation he cried in the Jedi Temple because he knew he was going to let someone down either way. I would call Anakin a fallen hero, maybe something more akin to anti-villain.
Perhaps having a video discussing Qui-Gon’s motives of taking Anakin away from his mother, even though it was away from slavery as well. Why not find a way to save the mother as well. The myth of “the chosen one” seems seductive.
Keep in mind that Watto implanted tracking devices in all his slaves' bodies that would trigger an explosion if they moved beyond the range of his tracking transmitter, which would've killed Shmi. While it could be argued that the Jedi could've paid for her freedom, it's highly unlikely that Watto would've relented, considering he lost everything else betting against Anakin in the podrace. And had the Jedi tried to free Shmi by force, Watto would've reported them to the Hutts, possibly sparking a political incident. Even in the best case scenario where the Jedi did free Shmi and moved her to another planet with better life conditions, it wouldn't have changed much for the better. She and Anakin still would've been kept apart and Shmi probably would've had an unhappy life alone in a completely strange world to her.
The blame can go around. It’s not even as simple as saying Anakin made his choices. Because what were the circumstances/influences that led to Anakin making those choices?
I Totally Agree! Just Because Others Might Not Be Doing the Right Thing isn't Justification for You to do the Wrong Thing! And Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right!
I’m still rewatching clone wars in my Star Wars chronological rewatch all the way from phantom menace to the mabdalorian and I’m right before the last ark of season 5 aka the ahsoka gets framed arc and that arc really shows the buildup to his downfall and as other comments point out all three parties the Jedi,palpatine,and anakin himself…
There are so many outside factors that pushed Anakin to the brink; Palpatine, the fear of losing Padmé, his antagonism towards the Jedi, and the resentment of never having enough throughout his life… But he was still ultimately in control of his decisions and destiny, and so the fault lies mostly on him.
I think we all tend to be the masters of our own disasters. While outside influences certainly had their effect, it was his own failings (need for attachments, uncontrollable rage, etc.) that were instrumental in what he becomes.
The questions are surely meaningless if we accept that what happens in the story is the will of the Force. Every single thing that we see in the saga only has meaning in the context of the Force... it's kind of baked into the SW cake, isn't it? And the ultimate meaning is that a person may be redeemed, may be forgiven for evil acts if at the end they choose to do good. Which does seem terribly unfair from a superficial, mundane viewpoint. But then in real life we have the problem of evil ... what is it? Is it a real thing? Why do terrible things happen to good people and why can't we stop them from happening? Life under the sun is perhaps only a journey to find answers to such questions.
I don’t think that just because the Jedi Order and the rules that it follows have lasted a long time necessarily means it worked. In both continuities there were schisms and civil conflicts in the Order regarding its principles that became full-scale wars. Also, the atmosphere and rigid ideology we see in the prequels are present in the 1,000 year era following the Sith Wars and are not representative of the Order’s methods throughout its history. So it may not have even “worked” as long as it may seem.
I agree. A lot of Jedi had problems with the attachment code and some even left or married in secret. They just didn't slaughter a bunch of children or enslave a entire galaxy. Marriage does not lead to violence or evil. Anakin was just possessive over Padme
Hey Thor, as continuation of this video, I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether the Jedi hold some responsibility for the many other members of their order that fell to the dark side. Dooku, Anakin, Ben or Jacen Solo, Revan and Malak, Kreia, Exar Kun, Darth Krayt and many more used their training to inflict great harm on the galaxy. Are these outliers, or is there some inherent failing in the teachings of the Jedi that causes some to so violently reject what they've been taught?
No all of them fell due to their own choices. Dooku as revealed in the Jedi Path book had early red flags of a future Sith believing the Jedi should be more social Darwinist and only recruit the strongest members of the Order. Malak and Revan sought forbidden knowledge and that is why they fell.
He was a powerful Jedi who needed more training and deciplain who was distracted by a compelling and no peers his age with equivalent power. Some great athletes today fall into this same teap and become bad.
I see your point in that it's worked for thousands of years but also it couldn't have turned out worse with anyone else in the order within that time either
The problem is that the Jedi order had been stagnating, it had also become overly dogmatic, rigid, too detached from others, and too entrenched in the Republic’s politics. In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith Yoda realizes that he bore a lot of the blame because he was too rigid, he didn’t allow the order to change, to evolve. The Jedi had foolishly believed that the Sith would attack them the same way they did 1,000 years ago (with a big army). It didn’t occur to them that the Sith would evolve, that they would become more powerful, that they would destroy them from within (Palpatine in office). All the Jedi trained for was to fight the last battle, because they forbid any study of the dark side they were unprepared for the Sith when they revealed themselves.
There were many external factors. But Anakin’s choices were still his own. I’m a Anakin fan and apologist, but I’d say all three of them are equally to blame. I’ve always kind of wondered why, were Anakin and Padmé so fearful and worried about them both being married and having children? I mean if the only thing that was going, to happen was a major scandal, i.e. Anakin gets expelled from the Jedi Order and Padmé loses her position in the senate. Which sure would kind of be bad, but they act like they’re lives or the lives of their children will be somehow in danger if anyone found out. Has anyone every thought about this before?
To my knowledge that's all there really is to it. And considering that Anakin is a war hero, it may not be that big of a scandal for her if he resigns (maybe call it retires) from the order.
Hey Thor, do you think Luke's new jedi order should've followed the rules about attachments like it seems he did in Canon, or should he have done his own thing like in Legends?
As a huge Anakin fan, the answer is an obvious "blame him" for me. Sure there were a billion contributing factors from the outside but HE chose the entirely selfish path in the end. If we consider TCW in the equation, he should have realized the jedi didn't share his values at the very least by Ahsoka's adandonment of the order. Should've left then and there himself. If we consider the comics, Obi-Wan talked him out of leaving very early on when he was still a child. If we consider only the movies, he should've left the order when they asked him to spy on the chancellor. The fact he bottled so many things up and then betrayed himself for them, knowing they don't share his values was what got him there. Certainly the jedi order was lacking and maybe QuiGon would've known better how to handle Anakin, but when he was continually at odds with who he was and who the jedi wanted him to be that likely drove him down the path more than anything. Likely Anakin was never destined to be the standard jedi and they did allow him some exceptions here and there, but the fact was he could never be what jedi were in those days and that was the standard they judged him ny anyway. He should've left at least in adulthood.
The Jedi failed in so many ways, but Anakin has to take responsibility for his terrible actions during his fall and the countless crimes he committed afterwards.
Star Wars fans can't think straight and often completely blame the Jedi for Anakin's fall. The real reason for Anakin's fall is a combination of Anakin joining the Jedi late (which is why they were unsure about him joining them), Palpatine's manipulations, and the Jedi both not knowing about Anakin's problems, and probably being unprepared to deal with them even if they did know. Attachments can lead to good, but it can also be taken advantage of by manipulative people like Palpatine. And that's why Ahsoka refuses to train Grogu. Yet the fans say Ahsoka is a Grey Jedi and hates the Jedi Order because she believes in attachments. No that's not it
So before watching the video, jus going from the question in the title: I'd say: all of them. Anakin made multiple choices that contributed to his fall, starting with the fact that he pursued Padme romantically (she also decided to be with him besides knowing that it is forbidden, so you could even argue she is partly to blame as well. Takes two to tango afterall) But the Jedi at the time also made decisions that pushed Anakin into a corner from his perspective while Palpatine also clearly tried to manipulate him. Qui-Gon wanted to train him. But I do think this could have been the will of the force, since he was one of the few Jedi at the time who focused on that. You could maybe argue agreeing on training him under Obi-Wan might have been the first small mistake. Obi-Wan at the time was still not that experienced. Considering the bond they shared however, I am not sure this was a big issue (in comparison to Qui-Gon maybe, but I am not sure other Jedi would have done a better job). First big step was (as mentioned above) his relationship with Padme. He pursued it, she went along with it and everyone that might have an idea about it didn't act (for the better or worse, who knows what would happen if they act on it) After that we see for a long time how he feels unfairly treated by the council - and Palpatine uses these feelings to manipulate him. Next big one is Padme getting pregnant for sure, it added pressure on Anakin. His visions are the next factor, and Palpatine again uses his emotions "against" him. What followed is the next big decision by him where he actually falls to the dark side, this in the end is still on him. He could have forced himself to stay behind and wait. Palpatine again used this situation to his advantage to manipulate him, but Anakin is the one who acted exactly how Palpatine wanted. Taking a few of those out of the picture and he might not fall.
Ultimately Anakin himself made the choice, he chose to kill all those younglings and allow the galaxy to fall to a dictator. It's fair to point out the many problems of the Jedi, as well as the sinister machinations of Palpatine. They certainly played a role. But ultimately it was Anakin's choice.
Anakin get most of the blame here. Let's not forget that he's slaughtered an entire village of Tuskans way, way before his affair with Padme, the Council not promoting him to Master and his fall to the Dark Side. Him grieving for his mother does not, in any way, justify killing the entire settlement, including women and children. That's genocide, folks. If anything, Padme shares a part of the blame for his further actions because she's failed to mention that *atrocity* to anyone, let alone the Jedi. Maybe, just maybe, if she did that, Anakin has been either reformed, or stripped of his rank and free to pursue a relationship with her. So many possibilities.
That was an act brought on by Anakin’s grief, which turned into blind rage. Anakin did feel remorse for what he had done to the Tuskens. Padme could see that he was being torn by grief and remorse, and decided to comfort him. Also the Tuskens weren’t innocent victims, they had murdered many innocent people and tortured others. It’s not like there’s any law enforcement who Anakin could go to who would arrest the Tuskens for their heinous actions. I don’t like Anakin’s actions anymore than you do, but I have to ask who will speak for the victims of those Tuskens?
That's an easy question to answer. Anakin is literally a son of the Force. Not a son of the light side of the Force. He's a son of the Force; all of it. He's just as complete as his Father. But he was raised with the Jedi Order, and he was always taught that the dark side is evil, the Jedi Order not thinking out what they were teaching him. There's no way ANYBODY can grow to be a well-adjusted person if he's always told that half of his entire being is evil. And the Jedi Order was wrong in its belief, and it so happens to be one of the big lessons that the Force taught Yoda before his training to become a Force ghost. It really is interesting to see that the entire time Anakin was Jedi, you could see the dark side coming out of him; and while he was Sith, the light was always there, plain to see by Padme who asserted that "there's good in him," by Luke who kept asserting the same thing, by Sidious who kept observing it, and also by Vader himself, who kept on trying to snuff the light out by keeping himself in pain and attempting to keep himself angry. He's his Father's son.
Hello well it is not as if the narrative is that consistent and coherent through the whole series. The build up of the 3 arguments relies on people interpretations of disjointed facts. for example episode 2 the jedi master are concerned about Anakin, but in episode 3 he himself mention that there is something wrong with him to be told that "nah, it will be fine mate". Not to mention not freeing his mother. They probably are all have a part of responsibility but it really is something that we, the audience have to ad, because it is not really being told to us. ie like in carmilla, it is clear that Carmilla is in love with Laura, but it is up to reader to decide if she let herself destroyed or not.
While Anakin bears some responsibility due to his emotional/personality issues & certainly Palpatine took advantage of the situation, I think ultimately the responsibility lies with Yoda & the Jedi. Qui-gon chose to flaunt the "rules" attempting to train Anakin which led to Obi-wan feeling pressured into doing the same. Yoda approved of it despite his obvious misgivings. Despite frequent issues during his training, Obi-wan continued despite his growing reservations. Lip service was paid to the idea that the Jedi misread the "chosen one" prophecy. Apparently no discussions were had as to whether Obi-wan was the proper person to be training Anakin, especially considering his emotional issues with Satine. Windu's aloof relationship with Anakin provided Anakin with a foil in the Council. The Jedi's treatment of Ahsoka gave Anakin reason to question the Order. Yoda giving emotional advice to anyone, let alone Anakin is a poor choice considering Yoda's cryptic answers that are locked into doctrine and considering that Yoda (with an 800+ year life span) probably has a MUCH different perspective on attachment, loss & emotions than a human - it reminds me of the scenes in Chernobyl where the lead technician tells everyone to read the manual & saying "It's impossible" despite massive evidence to the contrary that the reactor exploded. I also question whether or not Thor's statement about disillusioned Jedi being able to just walk away is accurate; I have not read all SW literature but it seems like the Jedi are potentially too powerful to just be left roaming the galaxy because you are emotionally challenged. Getting pissed at the teacher & saying "i'm out of here!" while carrying a lightsaber is a recipe for problems down the road. Certainly Ahsoka did it, but was it a common occurrence? It seems like this type of issue would have been a recurring problem over the years. Does it seem plausible that if Anakin told the Council "I'm done" that they really would have just let him walk away?
The Jedi have some blame and Anakin has some blame. However, even if the Jedi had done better at training Anakin. Palpatine would have adjusted too. Let's just say Quigon survived the fight with Maul. It's possible Palpatine just has him killed later in some weird way. As long as Palpatine became chancellor and had Anakins ear he would do everything he could to corrupt him. And if he was not discovered no one would counter him.
When Yoda tells him to learn to let go, you have to understand that this coming from some one who is nearly 900 years old. Anakin cant even begin to comprenhend just how many people has Yoda seen pass away over the years
Hey thor are you going to restart battle of the heroes and villains this weekend. If so are you planning to put out the quinlan vos video tomorrow, or friday/saturday.?
It's interesting how Vader himself seemed to view it later on. I know the Kenobi Show wasn't that good overall, but what I really liked were two things: - Vaders answer to the question "What have you become" by Obi Wan on their first encounter in the show being: "I am what you made me", which is by itself a line that gave me chills with James Earl Jones' voice, but can also be seen in multiple ways. Physically Obi Wan made Anakin into the cyborg Vader is by not making sure he died. You can also ask if the good that still is in Vader is sad that Obi Wan kinda gave up on him or wasn't there when he needed him most. And you could argue that maybe Vader still blames the Jedi for failing him and making him into what he is now. I think these layers were really beautiful in a way and it fits perfectly with this topic. - Secondly on paper it's a throwaway line, but how James Earl Jones said "did you truly think you could defeat me?" when Vader buried Obi Wan in the rocks was just so sad. I loved it. To me it kinda showed that he is sad to think he killed Obi Wan and also knows he has all this power but has still lost everything he ever loved.
Hey Thor, So I've mentioned to several friends and in a few comments section, I belive yours included, that the Old Republic is a gold mine of stories for movies, games, or shows with my preference being a long formatted Game of Thrones style of storytelling show starting from the outbreak of the Mandalorian Wars going right up to or even into the KOTOR games. My question is if you had the power and ability what kind of content would you loke to see most come from this era assuming Disney ever does it right? Or if you could, what would you personally want to write or make from this era and how what would it be like?
I have always felt it was more complicated then just blaming one side or the other. He definitely made a choice on top of the problems caused by others.
Honestly. Perfectly said right here.
Agreed. The fact that he was found at a later age than what the Jedi order at the time wanted made it hard to conform to their somewhat flawed philosophy. The Jedi were not able to offer the counseling he needed, leading him to be open to exploitation by Palpatine. The keeping him in the dark a lot created more friction between him and the Jedi council. But his ego and inability to keep his emotions in control pushed over the edge.
Anakin made a choice, but it was not the choice he thought he was making. Essentially, he thought he was choosing between his work and his family. Between protecting the ones he loves and serving the Jedi Council.
Palpatine deceived him into believing a false dichotomy, that serving the Jedi would mean the death of his family, whilst Yoda's belated poor advice about 'letting them go' did nothing to persuade him otherwise.
Then add to that the clear hypocrisy of the Jedi Council asking him to spy on the Chancellor and then later Mace's ill-conceived decision to personally execute Palpatine whilst Anakin was stood there watching. And with the words 'He's too dangerous to be kept alive' an echo of what Palpatine had said about Dooku, that was just enough to tip the balance.
And yes, the minute Anakin used the Dark Side to stop Mace, it began to totally consume him. The same way the Symbiote took control of Venom, he became the evil Darth Vader. Anakin was literally trapped behind that evil Dark mask, and although he hated what he had become, he hated who he used to be even more.
Excatly, all three came together, had the Jedi been more receptive of him (and had Qui Gon survived) he wouldn't have fallen, without Sheev's manipulation he wouldn't have fallen, and without his own desire for power and anger he wouldn't have fallen.
Exactly. Lucas did one of the best scenes ever when showing a character can choose between good and evil when Mace Windu was defeating Palpatine. Anakin knows this man is evil, he knows this man has lied to the entire galaxy, but in that moment, he chooses evil, when all he had to do was either standby or help Mace defeat the galaxy's most evil man. Lucas very clearly set up that scene so it rhymes with Vader's redemption scene, where the fate of the galaxy is being determined between Palpatine fighting a Jedi and putting Anakin there as the one to decide the galaxy's fate. Notice both Palpatine and Luke beg Anakin for help in the two scenes, except only one of those times does Anakin make the right decision.
Anakin was a victim for sure but i don’t think lucas ever intended for people to think “oh poor anakin” when vader walked on screen. Anakin was a victim of manipulation of all three even he tried to manipulate himself into being a good jedi and a good person. This is the story of a victim who decided to take control… he just chose horribly wrong.
George does refer to Anakin as a victim, so I think George wanted us to see Anakin as both. Yes, Anakin falls victim to Palpatine's manipulations and was left vulnerable because of his emotional state and upbringing. But in the end, Anakin is the one to make the decision to turn to the dark side. Even though in his heart, he knows it's wrong. He betrayed his friends and even caused the death of his wife. And he looks for someone to blame, but over time, he fully realizes that it was him. He even says he himself killed Anakin Skywalker in Obi-Wan Kenobi.
@@matthewk4912 Like Lucas said with Episode 3, the hero and villain is also the victim.
This.
@matthewk4912 you talk about Anakin's choices, but consider how his choices came from a wish to do the right thing. It's explained in his response to Obi-wan in their Mustafar duel. When Obi-wan says to him that Chancellor Palpatine is evil. And Anakin of course already knew this, he was the one who reported on Palpatine to have him arrested after all. But he replied 'From my point of view the Jedi are evil'. So he felt he was choosing the lesser of two evils.
This was the inevitable outcome of Palpatine's grooming and the Jedi's mishandling over many years. There was no one moment by itself where the Dark Side suddenly changed him, it was gradual. And the Jedi were meant to be his guardians, they should have protected him from Palpatine's influence from the start.
Anakin blames himself when his son asked him to leave Palpatine he answers “it’s too late for me” that’s a confession that he made a choice that when he reflected on it years later when the passion died down he knew was wrong
I do think the Jedi definitely midhandled Anakin, but at the same time, dropping the ball with one Jedi knight wouldn't normally lead to the downfall of the entire Jedi order and Galactic Republic. So many events had to converge for the Sith and Empire to tske over the galaxy.
Give the Sith credit. Their strategy worked. A lot of events would have prevented their fall had the Jedi been able to sense the Sith Master sitting in front of them with a smile. His powers shielded him from the Jedi even a foot away and I’d like to think it was the result of the long passing of knowledge from master to apprentice until Palpatine brought it home.
@PixelKatana except nothing that Palpatine accomplished was entirely of his own making. His manipulation was based on the weakness and corruption that already had existed in the Republic, the Senate, and the Jedi Order. Had it been at earlier times than the Prequel era, such evil would like not to have found such a secure foothold. The long history of the Jedi provides the proof.
@PixelKatana
Which is wild, cause after a Millenia of preparation... they ruled the Galaxy for like, 25 years 😅 Palpatine created the Galactic Empire, and that was their strongest/largest Galactic power
It was the perfect storm. He was a victim of manipulation for sure, and the Jedi set the preconditions for that to happen, but he wasn't devoid of his own agency. Padme never would of wanted him to do what he did, even if it succeeded in saving her life, but he did it anyway because it was more about his fear of losing her than what she would've wanted.
You're right. It became more about protecting into protecting his own feelings from inevitable and common struggles like lose. It was a mistake on Lucas' part to focus so much on attachment as its an obscure philosophical mess about letting go that not many can grasp. Though I kinda get it, we are still doing so much explaining on the writers behalf. I theorized that the problem wasnt relationships, but relationships along with problematic mindsets or feelings. The romance should have been a sub plot to his pride which is depicted (or vocalized) at many points in different ways.
Edit: and I think pride is what sets him apart from Luke, Kanan and Cal
@@ThreadBareHope1234 I believe Anakin loved Padme but it was more of a selfish way of fear of losing for himself and not for her. They would have been a better couple had he gotten therapy and left the Jedi order and she put boundaries on his sometimes controlling behavior. Both of them were thrust onto politics and duty at a young age and neither of them knew the proper way how do deal with relationships and communication since all they knew was keeping the galaxy safe and handling conflicts on the outside but the inside within themselves and each other. Padme had a better chance than Anakin since she grew up with a family and knew of healthy family relationships whereas he was a slave exposed to abuse and had to suppress emotions in the Jedi order which he couldn't handle. He should have walked away from the order and did work on himself before he could be a proper father and husband. That doesn't excuse his actions though and shows the tragedy of a couple not knowing how to deal with themselves and the pressures of double lives and ended up paying the price for it in the end
The story of Anakin’s fall could be a Greek tragedy, where heroes strive for greatness, but are brought low by a combination of fate and their own human flaws.
That is absolutely right
If only Anakin had of known the Jedi were plotting to take over earlier....
Some lesser talked about points i think are important here:
- Palpatine didn't just manipulate Anakin via his "meetings", he literally orchestrated his downfall by manipulating the Jedi/political events. In ep 2 after the assassination attempt on Padme, Palpatine helps influence the decision for Anakin to go with Padme to protect her, at a time when Anakin is immature and plagued by feelings for her. They only ever got together because of Palpatine.
- Mace Windu hated Anakin and was always an ass towards him, this along with Yoda's "ways" probably meant Anakin felt the 2 top Jedi masters didn't like him or didn't trust him or some kind of ill feelings were between them. Windu essentially spills the beans on this in ep 3 when he admits he doesn't trust Anakin and it's possible Anakin had sensed this his entire time with the Jedi. If Windu had of been away during the events of Coruscant and it had of been any other master instructing Anakin it could have played out very differently. Ultimately Windu got exactly what he deserved.
- Anakin wasn't just in love with Padme, he was a father to be, still young 20's and probably had fatherly/protective instincts kicking in like crazy along with everything else going on. The moment Anakin relieves Windu of his hand, every Jedi is now his enemy and a threat to his family. This is why he immediately shifts to full evil mode and goes to destroy the Temple, and yeah its definitely a messed up thing, but this is why he kills the younglings - he either does it then or they will try to hunt him and his family down later.
Overall its a complete sh!tstorm of events to go through, many people are to blame, but Anakin failed a test that probably 1 in a million could pass.
We must all take a form of responsibility for the actions we take.
But like YT channel The Masked Man’s deep dive video into Vader states, Anakin’s obsessions are what lead to his downfall.
I'd say victim. As heroic and good natured as Anakin was he had so much against him.
1. There was a sith lord posing as a kind and compassionate old man grooming him since he arrived on Coruscant.
2. He was emotionally unable after being ripped away from his mother who he had formed a strong attachment to. Plus the Jedi didn't do anything to free her making him resent them when it was too late. They also refused to help him move past it essentially telling to get over it.
3. Being separate from his mother created a hole in his life one that his love for Padme filled but it became very possessive after her death. He couldn't lose her as well. The only thing keeping him together.
4. The Jedi treating him like crap and causing Ahsoka go leave the order only made things worse.
Anakin's fall was inevitable it was just a matter of when enough was enough. Nothing short of Qui-Gon-Jinn's guidance could of prevented it.
Anakin had foreseen the selling of Lucasfilm. That is what drove him to the dark side.
I'm sure I saw a pic somewhere of Mickey Mouse decked out as a Sith Lord.
I actually think that there is quite a bit of overlap between Anakin and Zuko form ATLA, just in reverse, at least in some points. Anakin has grown up to be a good and well meaning person, being surrounded by good people around him, like his mother or Jedi, and only a singular force has been trying to corrupt him over a long time. While Zuko grew up surrounded by mostly evil influence, and only small forces have been trying to steer him towards good, like his mother and uncle. Anakin because of the corruption fell to the dark side, while Zuko, you could say, fell to the light side thanks to mostly his uncle.
So I think Anakin cannot be branded victim nor villain separately, but both at the same time, as he could have turned out completely good, if the circumstances were right, but he still chose to walk down this path, while he could have fought or rejected it.
I would be surprised if Anakin/Vader didn't have some influence on Zuko's character. ATLA is a great show and Zuko is a big part of it.
I always wonder how things be like if Anakin work for his redemption end of return of the Jedi instead of dying.
@@gregelchert752 Which kinda don’t make any sense because Kylo don’t have a reason to become a villain.
The Jedi should've rescued his mom and told him "you still need to break off family ties, but at least you know she's safe."
Anakin would've been grateful to the Jedi and avoided the dark side. Of course, that wouldn't make for much of a plot.
Knowing his back story doesn't excuse what he did, but it does explain why.
Rescue her from what? She was a slave yes but ignoring the obvious morally wrongness of only freeing a slave because of nepotism instead of it being morally right to stop slavery, Shmi was safer with Watto than she was freed with the Lars Family. Tuskens don’t attack major settlements and give them all a wide berth. And the Jedi didn’t know she would be kidnapped.
@@emberfist8347Not to mention that Watto implanted tracking devices in all his slaves' bodies that would trigger an explosion if they moved beyond the range of his tracking transmitter, which would've killed Shmi.
While it could be argued that the Jedi could've paid for her freedom, it's highly unlikely that Watto would've relented, considering he lost everything betting against Anakin in the podrace. And had the Jedi tried to free Shmi by force, Watto would've reported them to the Hutts, possibly sparking a political incident.
Ultimately, Anakin is responsible for his own actions and decisions. No one forced him to do anything.
The circumstances he was in were not helpful, and in one case were directly detrimental, but none of it absolves him of his personal responsibility. The elements working against him were:
- His childhood as a slave, and the sudden separation from his mother.
- Due to how the Jedi approached attachments, no one (alive) in the Order had the knowledge or experience to properly counsel and guide Anakin through his struggles and feelings for Shmi and Padme. It is hinted that Qui-Gon may have been able to work on this, but obviously that was not to happen.
- The concurrent expectations and skepticism around his status as The Chosen One. The put a lot of pressure to prove himself, and fed into his frustrations that he was not more powerful.
- Palpatine’s manipulations and grooming, especially when Anakin was seeking father figures.
Another issue is that Anakin was not very open his troubles, especially during Revenge of Sith when speaking to Yoda. Anakin was very vague about what troubled and so Yoda couldn’t give him a very concrete answer due to Anakin’s vagueness. Jedi are allowed to talk about these feelings and be able to talk to their masters about it, but being vague about an issue will not give very clear answers.
Villains aren’t born, they are made.
Palpatine is a master craftsman
Anakin - Tragic villain
Palpatine - Embodiment of all the evil and wickedness
No some villains are born. Palpatine was born evil. He wanted to kill his father since day one.
then who was the original villain who started making villains?
@@emberfist8347 yeah i guess psychos are blrn
It's not so easy to answer on that question, yes anakin choose to listen Palatine, yes Palatine manipulate him, and yes Jedi should help anakin. It's difficult to find a answer 😂
This video made me remember this quote from the Revenge of the Sith Novel:
And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker. That it was all you. Is you. Only you. You did it. You killed her. You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself. . .
It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith-
Because now your self is all you will ever have.
The Jedi order wasn't well suited for training a unique padawan like Anakin, and Palpatine did feed Anakin's ego and negatively influence him, but ultimately the choices Anakin made were done on his own volition, and the consequences fall on his shoulders.
👍👍👍
Fault is shared. Pointing your finger at any one party is oversimplifying it. All parties are to blame. You did a fine job of explaining the Jedi order (including Yoda), Anakin himself, and Palps. I would like to add the following:'
Obi-Wan: Insisted he'd train Anakin, despite sensing something was wrong with the kid, and being too young himself for such a responsibility. Probably also suspected Anakin's relationship with Padme and did nothing.
Padme: Knowing entered a relationship with Anakin despite knowing it would be bad for the galaxy as a whole, while also ignoring red flags from Anakin.
Captain Rex: Seemed to help Anakin cover up the relationship with Padme.
Mace Windu: Was actively hostile towards Anakin, likely due to his chosen one status.
Dooku: Willing and knowingly did actions to push the dark side out of Anakin, similar to Palps on a smaller scale.
Watto: I'm sure growing up a slave didn't help Anakin develop healthy emotions.
The Republic Itself: Its complacency was part of what led to Anakin being a slave in the first place, and also was partially responsible for the formation of the separatists, and the war that opened the door for Palpatine to step through.
The Tuskens: Anakin's mother dying was a big step in his turn.
I'm sure there's a bunch I missed as well.
Mace wasn’t hostile for no reason. When Anakin told him about Palpatine being a Sith you see him praise Anakin for it.
@@emberfist8347there was nothing ‘wrong’ with Anakin when he was first brought to the Temple!! He was a fundamentally good kid!! It was the Jedis hubris and inability to adapt to his uniqueness, his emotional attachments (starting with being separated from a loving mother), which forced those (ignored) feelings to manifest into something more problematic!! And quite frankly the Jedi counsels attitude to that 8 year old child who stood before them, was quite appalling!! More importantly Palpatine took advantage of their neglect by ensuring that he provided the parental/protective figure Anakin so desperately needed and desired!!🤷🏻♀️
@@nicolarobinson3140 Except his attachments were what was wrong. Attachments were forbidden for a reason and he was 9 at the time.
The Jedi aren’t wrong and never had hubris, Anakin just struggled to follow their ways. The Jedi are a monk order who values discipline in their ways and adherence to the Force. Which Anakin struggled to display on many occasions. It’s more of the fact that Anakin has difficultly of adapting to this strict way of life and thinking due to his past(probably a reason why the Jedi were hesitant to train him.) The Jedi we’re unable to help Anakin at least what was shown in episode 3 was because Anakin was being very vague and trying to hide his marriage. So, Yoda not really knowing a lot have Anakin a textbook Jedi answer, abiding by the Code and freeing oneself to attachments.
To determine how much blame anyone should have in Anakin falling, you only need to ask, if it was someone else, would they have done what he did given the same circumstances. My thoughts on this is that most people would be hard pressed to do much worse than he did. Anakin's circumstances certainly sucked and the people around him didn't help but, at the end of the day, he did this to himself.
Anyone would go far to save their wife and child.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 Choking out his pregnant wife separated Anakin from just anyone.
All of this could've been avoided if Anakin stepped down as a Jedi and just lived with his wife, doing literally anything else.
It's not as if the Jedi are not allowed to do that. There's an entire Jedi Corp comprised of the graduates who did not pass their trials or chose not to live the rigorous life of a Jedi. They do good work, but, you know, without all the lightsabers and fighting.
Living a quiet life with my loving wife and future children, or live a double life of danger and lies? I would've chosen the former in a heartbeat.
@@arcanefeline Anakin's intention was to do that after the war, he didn't want to leave with the galaxy in danger still.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 where does he say that in the movies?
Hey Thor, I think I may understand attachments a bit more. Maybe. It's all in how you feel about them. For instance, Anakin was so afraid of losing Padme, he put his feelings for her over the greater good. I think, if Anakin had one friend there, not Palpatine, to talk to about his fears, he wouldn't have allowed his fear of loss to overtake him. Throughout the war, his attachment to Padme was regular. She did her work, he did his. But Palpatine wanted Anakin isolated from his friends. He made sure Obi-Wan and Anakin were separate. He poisoned Anakin's mind away from the Jedi. If Yoda had used different words, he might have been able to break through some of Palpatine's manipulations.
I agree with parts, disagree with others.
For starters, TCW shows us Anakin and Padme's relationship was unhealthy. It was built on shaky grounds to begin with, and Anakin being infamously impulsive and quick to anger could create serious problems.
However, the thing about Anakin having a friend there to guide them in the right direction? Spot-on. That's the entire point of Qui-Gon Jinn. He was the father figure that Anakin needed, and his death was a major factor in the fates of Anakin, the Jedi, and the galaxy. The duel is named what it is for a reason.
It is more if Anakin listened to Yoda. Yoda told Anakin what he needed to learn which is that death is a part of life. If Anakin took that lesson to heart, he wouldn’t have turned and Padme would still be alive.
@@emberfist8347 It would have sounded better coming from Rex than Yoda.
But Anakin did have a friend. Obi-Wan. They were more than friends, they were brothers.
Palatine sure had a hand in poisoning Anakin's relationship with the Jedi Order, but Obi-Wan has always been there for him. Anakin *chose* not to confess to his best friend, mentor and brother-in-arms. It was his choice.
There were many factors contributing to his downfall, but lack of a friend was not one of them.
@@arcanefeline My friend, you missed the whole point of having Obi-Wan go to Utapau. Palpatine knew the bond between Obi-Wan and Anakin was strong. He had to get Obi-Wan out of the way so that his voice was the only one Anakin heard. If Obi-Wan was nearby, he could have told him. Also Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin and the Republic for years. He had been using subtle comments to make the Jedi seem bad even when he was promoting the Clones. The whole reason Obi-Wan and Anakin were involved in the Battle of Coruscant was Palpatine wanted Anakin there. Obi-Wan was the tag along. Dooku was meant to kill Obi-Wan, but he couldn't bring himself to do it.
Speaking of Anakin I was just watching somebody play Fallen Order for the first time and I loved it lol. I have already played it but just love seeing that everybody reacts to Vader showing up the same way 🤣
He's a victim of circumstance, that probably being all the above.
This is a complicated one, I'd say Anakin is mostly a victim of circumstances as well as playing a part in his own downfall. While his extremely high power and potential made him arrogant and impulsive, leading him to make disastrous choices, there were several other factors at play. Such as the Jedi Council treating him poorly, not trusting him enough, their actions regarding Ahsoka, and the fact the Jedi lost their way along with Palpatine using Anakin's loneliness and struggles to manipulate him. All of these contribute to Anakin basically being a ticking bomb.
Exactly. I blame Palpatine the most. He was orchestrating everything in the shadows to weaken the republic and the Jedi and even more so Anakin himself acting like a father figure for him and all. Not a good father figure but of course Anakin wouldn't know the difference.
The Jedi didn’t lose their way and with Ahsoka they did what any other organization would do. They suspended her membership while they investigated the matter. And the Council didn’t treat Anakin poorly but they did treat him like any other Jedi. Ki-Adi-Mundi was also only a Jedi Knight when he was on the Jedi Council in Episode I for the same reason as Anakin he didn’t even have a Padawan yet.
@@emberfist8347 They did lose their way. They went from being peacekeepers of the galaxy, to serving only the interests of the stagnating Republic and fighting a war they had no place in. A war while orchestrated by Palpatine, painted the Jedi Order as a whole in a bad light. And no, contrary to your rhetoric Ahsoka was treated poorly as was Anakin. With Ahsoka, apart from Anakin and maybe Obi Wan, Plo Koon and Yoda, they expelled her and were happy to put her on trial in the Republic courts. Her punishment would have resulted in execution considering it was a time of war. It was only because of Anakin's investigation leading it to be Barriss Offee who bombed the temple, proving Ahsoka,s innocence. The Jedi Council asked her to return, and offered her the rank of Jedi Knight, but only a few of them properly apologized to her. Mace Windu seemed completely unapologetic for the treatment Ahsoka received, and instead claimed that it was all the will of the force. However, Ahsoka refused to return and walked away. That's one example which proved the Jedi were not following the will of the force.
@@emberfist8347 Contrary to your rhetoric again, the Jedi council did poorly treat Anakin. When Qui Gon brought him before the council as a literal child, did Anakin really show any tendencies towards the dark side? No. But the council still rejected him. The reason? They were afraid of him. Simply put they saw in Anakin a power so strong they were afraid they could not control him. Yoda had sensed danger in training him, which was true, but I’ll address that in a minute. Ultimately the council, filled with fully trained Jedi masters, looked at an untrained child and saw a threat.
Now, as I mentioned, Yoda and the council did see danger in Anakin’s future. But instead of doing anything to help him stay on the right path, they gave him the push he needed to turn. Since Anakin was eleven years old, the majority of the people around him distrusted him. They pulled this kid out of slavery, away from his mother and everyone he knew, and dropped him in an unfamiliar setting on a completely different planet. He was a kid. The Jedi, with the exception of Obi Wan (and Qui Gon before he died), openly distrusted and even disliked Anakin. So who did he turn to? Who did this eleven year old kid have looking out for him? Palpatine! Palpatine, who obviously knew what Anakin would be capable of, swooped in and took Anakin under his wing. He was a friend and a mentor where there was none.
Now, Anakin was arrogant, this is true. And he did feel a pull to the dark side. But I would argue that that both his arrogance and the pull to the dark side were accentuated because of the way the council treated him. The council tried to limit Anakin at every turn. They wanted to hold him back. Even Obi Wan, who really was looking out for Anakin, was too closely affiliated with the council to be seen as a true friend to Anakin. This is especially clear in Episode 3. In Anakin’s mind, Palpatine was one of his only true friends.
Then Anakin breaks an important Jedi rule: he falls in love and gets married! Yes, he made this decision himself. But why? Because Padme was one of the only other people who didn’t see Anakin as a tool they could use or a problem to solve. She loved Anakin for who he was. Anakin naturally gravitated towards her because she truly cared.
Then the council got downright insulting with Anakin. Under the guidance of Palpatine, who Anakin genuinely saw as a friend and mentor, Anakin expressed his wish to join the Jedi council. The council practically berated Anakin for this, expressing their distaste for senate interference in Jedi affairs. Then they put Anakin on the council and announce, in front of the entire council, that he will not be promoted to Jedi master. This understandably makes Anakin angry.
Later, as if to rub salt in the wound, when Anakin suggests he goes on a mission (again at Palpatine’s guidance), he is basically told “we want a real Jedi master to handle this”. Who is chosen? Obi Wan. In the midst of all this Anakin is told he is only on the council so he can spy on his good friend for the council, which was also against the Jedi code. Obi Wan is the only one who tries to help Anakin and show him genuine care, but Obi Wan is also on the council himself. At this point Obi Wan is too close to the council for Anakin.
At no point during any of Anakin’s training did anyone but Obi Wan try to help him manage his emotions, navigate the council, of handle any of the other crap the Jedi council threw at him. You’d think if Yoda and the other Jedi masters were so concerned about Anakin’s future they would’ve done more to help him not turn to the dark side.
By now the stage was basically set for Anakin to become a Sith. He allowed his emotions to take over, he was spurned by everyone around him (more or less), and he feared for Padme’s life. But when Palpatine revealed himself to be a Sith Anakin did not immediately join. He could’ve. It would’ve been so simple, the two of them were entirely alone. But instead Anakin turns Palpatine in, horrified to discover he was actually a Sith Lord. But what does Mace Windu say? “If you’re right, you’ll have earned my trust”. He still insults Anakin and makes it clear he is seen as something “other”.
When Anakin follows Windu and discovers Windu is going to remorselessly execute Palpatine, against Jedi code, Anakin finally snaps. In the loss of Palpatine, he would lose everyone who actually cared about him. Padme and Palpatine would die, leaving Anakin alone in the world. That is the moment when Anakin truly turns. Not before.
If the council had shown Anakin any amount of kindness, respect, or concern I seriously doubt if he would’ve turned to the dark side. His turning was as much a result of the council’s treatment and using of Anakin for their own designs as it was Palpatine’s influence.
@@theimperialist2686 So let me get this straight peacekeepers of the galaxy should help protect the *Galactic* Republic? And the Jedi had a place in the Clone Wars. Evil triumphs when the good people do nothing which is what you are advocating. Particularly when this was the first large-scale conflict in a millennia.
Also the Jedi were following the will of the force. It works in mysterious ways after all. And they didn't investigate because it wasn't their perview. It was under military jurisdiction not theirs.
When “all of the above” is the correct answer
I would say all three but mainly Anakin and Palps. If Anakin slowed down for a moment, realized Palps had manipulated him for the very second they met during TPM and likely is still manipulating him, I think things would have ended quite differently. Anakin ultimately had a noble goal, to save a loved one. It was how he decided to achieve it that was wrong.
You're right. It started out with protecting her, and I personally think it devolved into protecting his own feelings from inevitable and common struggles like lose. It was a mistake on Lucas' part to focus so much on attachment as its an obscure philosophical mess about letting go that not many can grasp. Though I kinda get it, we are still doing so much explaining on the writers behalf. I theorized that the problem wasnt relationships, but relationships along with problematic mindsets or feelings. The romance should have been a sub plot to his pride which is depicted (or vocalized) at many points in different ways.
Edit: and I think Pride is what sets him apart from Kanan, Luke, and Cal.
@@ThreadBareHope1234 Exactly. A healthy marriage is based on unconditional love and respect between partners. Padme and Anakin's relationship was NOT healthy and he was selfish about it. Falling in love and romance are not a bad thing, it's using it in a selfish way that's bad and I wish the Jedi would have realized it.
Very nice piece, Thor. An individual and their choices drive their destiny - a hard truth we all have to face. Conquering this dilemma or not makes us heroes in our own way.
Anakin had plenty of training with kenobi. He was just too stubborn. He just wanted his cake and eat it too. It's basically all his own fault.
Nothing at all to do with the Jedis hubris, his personal circumstances/childhood, Palpatines manipulation, changes in the force and the ongoing war?!! His own failings certainly contributed to his downfall.. but it being entirely Anakins fault?! Now that’s another thing…🤷🏻♀️
I think Yoda was the most honest Jedi with Anakin and also the most coherent one. Yoda not only spoke about losing someone in particular when talking about "letting go" to Anakin, but also he was refering to status, bureaucratic positions, and the like which secure power and access to resources within te context of the galactic structures (the Republic and the Jedi Order). Don't forget: Yoda himself replied to Mace Windu's idea of ploting a coup against Palpatine because it could be worse ("To a dark place that line of thought might carry us"). In the end, that actually happened and Yoda had to flee along with letting go his old life at the core of the galaxy to hide and live like a hermit. I think the issue is even deeper just to treat it in an overly emotional manner or as inter-person relations solely. The issue concerns also objective relations mediated by things and power structures. Now: regarding the issue, Anakin was mostly a victim with a great deal of decision though and Vader was a villain with a sense of guilty for believing in Sidious/Palpatine in the first place. That is why Luke succeded where Anakin failed: Luke was not seduced by power or money when confronted (twice) Vader, and he could not be turned to the dark side as expected by the emperor.
Domestic abusers are often victims of abuse themselves, specifically as a child. There is a point where the victim becomes the perpetrator, aka the villain. He was both.
It’s tough. Definitely a situation where many factors played into it.
I will put the most blame on Palpatine. Because he had the most motivated effort to lead to Anakin’s fall. And I think intent matters.
Anakin didn’t want to make bad decisions. But he owns the ones he made. And the Jedi were incompetent and made errors. But they certainly wanted a different result.
All forces came together in the worst way.
While I don't think things should ever be black or white regarding Anakin's fall, I do believe that a lack of strong editing in the prequel films doesn't help the Jedi in the argument. One simple edit in episode II that would change nothing about the film, but would make the Jedi look far better would be to add some passing dialogue that the Jedi had gone back and freed Shmi from slavery. You could have had it where Anakin had a secret communicator, provided by Palpatine if you wanted to goose up their relationship, that he used to stay in contact with her and that between the lack of her responding to the communicator combined with his visions, he ended up going to Tatooine and everything else played out more or less the same minus a scene with Watto. This would have shown even more strongly the breakdown of Anakin's training in the Jedi way and shown that the Jedi don't turn a blind eye to injustice.
On a side note with the issue of control, this is where I wish George would have expanded on his idea of Midi-chlorians. Instead of being a stagnant power level, I wish it had just been a starting point that training that either Jedi or Sith teaching would then cause the creatures to grow and multiply. This could have been used to show a core difference in the teachings where the Jedi took a slower more controlled/spiritual growth path while the Sith would let them bloom out of control like an infection, with the goal of making them stronger by culling the weak. It would explain why the dark side seems so much stronger, but so many fail as the growth of the Midi-chlorians at such a rapid rate would break down the body faster. You could add a pleasurable/intoxicating element to the sudden growth which would further help to solidify why in a lot of media when someone turns to the dark side we see such a shift in their personalities.
Ah the question that can always be debated about Anakin. Personally I think Anakin's fall was the whole package between the Jedi being corrupted, padme and the clone wars , his fall was inevitable. Do I think qui Gon would have prevented him from falling to the dark side , YES. I mean even to an extent I think obi wan could have gotten through to him , but only obi wan after revenge of the sith, in terms of where the character is. Obi wan lacked in a couple ways Anakin needed but ultimately they were brothers essentially. I think if obi wan had just been completely honest about his relationship with Satine, in the clone wars, I think I would have put Anakin a lot closer to the light side during revenge of the sith . There's one scene in particular that I think this conversation would have been the perfect moment to address it , think it's a season 6 episode but Anakin and obi wan are talking in one of the temple chambers and obi pretty much confirms he knows about padme and Anakin (if you know the scene you know what I'm talking about) , but Anakin ultimately says there's nothing there. After that I think that's where obi wan opening up to him about his relationship with Satine and how close he was to leaving the Jedi for her , I think that alone could have saved him , may not have prevented order 66 but if they dueld on Mustafar, I think Anakin could have been pulled back to the light there .
I fell like you could have added something else to this argument. Anakin was THE chosen one. This would go to anyone's head, but with Anakin, it definitely had an impact on his life.
Anakin had the choice of becoming a Jedi renunciate at any point, if he wanted to be with Padme in episode 3.He wouldn’t have to stop serving in the clone wars either, he’s best friends with admiral Yularen, serving as part of the navy was always a possibility.
I wouldn’t call them friends more like colleagues but he would probably be a noteworthy non-clone ace pilot if he left the Order.
>Thor says only Anakin fucked up and turned to the dark side in the entirety of Jedi history
>Every other fallen Jedi to the dark side/turned Sith: “What the F Bro?!?!?”
Anakin definitely knew what he was doing…he even stopped for a group photo with his clones when raiding the temple.
The bulk of the responsibility for Anakin's fall comes back to Anakin. One can argue that Palpatine manipulated him... and there is no denying that Palpatine pulled those sorts of tricks, but not every action was a result of Palpatine's manipulations...
Some of it comes from Anakin wanting to be a "man of action." To see a villain or something wrong, and then immediately jump to "oh, there's a bad guy, I must smite him." It's action without thinking. Look to the start of the cantina scene in "Attack of the Clones." Anakin wants to rush in after the bounty hunter and has to be reminded to think by Obi Wan that the target had gone into hide, not to fight or run away. Had Obi Wan not showed up, it's quite possible that Anakin would have run through the building and gone out a back door looking for someone running and missing that the target WASN'T running. That's that sign of that issue in Anakin's character... and came out without Palpatine even being there.
Now, one could argue that Palpatine was ultimately behind the attempts to kill Padme... and that'd probably be true but given her place in the Republic and the timeframe... it's also quite plausible that that would be coincidence as well. For while Palpatine was a master manipulator, that doesn't necessarily mean that things went perfectly for him. After all, we see in the Clone Wars series that some of Palpatine's plans don't go exactly as he hoped. And it should also be noted that later in "Attack of the Clones," Anakin ultimately favors a form of government where "someone wise" forces the galaxy to do what is in the best interests of the people at large... with Padme says to his face "sounds like a dictatorship." But Palpatine wasn't there for that picnic...
So, while Palpatine certainly did things to fuel Anakin's ego... we need to note that Anakin through the prequel trilogy repeatedly showed a lot of negative character traits that were bound to make him easy to manipulate and he never truly addressed those issues. Whenever anyone said anything remotely critical of Palpatine, regardless of what it was, Anakin was quit to rush to Palpatine's defense, regardless of the issue. The Jedi give the warning that he's stayed in office beyond the limit of his term and Anakin answers, "he's not a bad man." And in "Revenge of the Sith" when opinions are voiced that worry over the executive powers that Palpatine was taking, it was defended as a faster means to end the war. Palpatine wasn't there for this, yet Anakin is rapidly providing a defense for Palpatine's actions... despite the fact that initially the comments weren't necessarily THAT critical.
Now, while I'd argue that the Jedi had their flaws in the specifics in how they dealt with attachments, that doesn't necessarily mean that Palpatine wouldn't be able to find some other avenue of manipulation if the Jedi's rules weren't there, or that Anakin would just jump to do whatever Palpatine commanded of him, regardless of what it was.
There is a scene in the clone wars where obi wan tells anakin that there is nothing wrong with having feelings.
Turning to the Dark side is a choice. It's always a choice. That is the point George Lucas was trying to make.
Anakin is both and I feel the Jedi are 1/3 the reason he fell to the dark side, the other 1/3s being Anakin and Palpatine.
I don’t feel the Jedi ever addressed the issue of Anakin’s past. Allowed him to be around Palpatine which is weird. Where not the best when it came to understanding emotions. When Anakin is out on the Council they could have told him their plan to have him spy on Palpatine and all that before telling him they’re not making him a master.
The story lays out that he may be the Chosen One and they don’t help his mom. In Legends she even contacted the Temple to tell Anakin she was free and they refused Shmi’s call.
It’s bunkers to me that a group like the Jedi who are supposed to be compassionate would somehow interfere with Anakin talking with his mom. AOTC or the novel version never explain why they didn’t talk. I can’t imagine Shmi wouldn’t want Anakin to know she was free and in the novel she would look up at the stars hoping a ship would land at the farm with Anakin aboard. How would he have found her? Anything could happen to Watto.
I’ve also wondered if Cliegg or Owen ever sent their own mission about what happened to Shmi and Yoda and Mace didn’t say anything. They could even have told Obi-Wan and instructed him to tell Anakin that dreams will pass in time. I honestly can’t say if Obi-Wan knew something was wrong with Anakin’s mom he’d do anything about it.
I say this because as far as the movies go the Jedi should still think she’s a slave.
I’m not just repeating what Filoni says Qui-Gon. I have wonder if he could have done something to prevent Anakin’s fall. Before TPM there was no idea that someone else could have been Anakin’s master and that just opens up a new set of possibilities.
In TPM novel that came out with the movie Qui-Gon thinks about how he is closer to the living Force and thus able to empathize with Anakin in ways other Jedi would discourage because they are closer to the unifying Force.
Qui-Gon says neither approach is wrong but him being a different kind of Jedi has been there since the beginning.
The full quote from The Phantom Menace novel:
The Jedi folded his arms over his broad chest. The Force was a complex and difficult concept. The Force was rooted in the balance of all things, and every movement within its flow risked an upsetting of that balance. A Jedi sought to keep the balance in place, to move in concert to its pace and will. But the Force existed on more than one plane, and achieving mastery of its multiple passages was a lifetime’s work. Or more. He knew his own weakness. He was too close to the life Force when he should have been more attentive to the unifying Force. He found himself reaching out to the creatures of the present, to those living in the here and now. He had less regard for the past or the future, to the creatures that had or would occupy those times and spaces.
It was the life Force that bound him, that gave him heart and mind and spirit.
So it was he empathized with Anakin Skywalker in ways that other Jedi would discourage, finding in this boy a promise he could not ignore. Obi-Wan would see the boy and Jar Jar in the same light-useless burdens, pointless projects, unnecessary distractions. Obi-Wan was grounded in the need to focus on the larger picture, on the unifying Force. He lacked Qui-Gon’s intuitive nature. He lacked his teacher’s compassion for and interest in all living things. He did not see the same things Qui-Gon saw.
Qui-Gon sighed. This was not a criticism, only an observation. Who was to say that either of them was the better for how they interpreted the demands of the Force? But it placed them at odds sometimes, and more often than not it was Obi-Wan’s position the Council supported, not Qui-Gon’s. It would be that way again, he knew. Many times.
But this would not deter him from doing what he believed he must. He would know the truth about Anakin Skywalker. He would discover his place in the Force, both living and unifying. He would learn who this boy was meant to be.
Minutes later, he was stretched out on the floor, asleep.
People misunderstand the jedi in the same way they do with buddhism, being a buddhist is about feeling your emotions deeply but understanding you are not your thoughts and feelings, you are the observer, the best way to think of it is imagine your mind as the sky and clouds as feelings the clouds/feelings come and go but the sky/your mind is eternal and ever present and doesnt get effected by the clouds/feelings
You make great points about this. It certainly is a complicated question. I think it is made more complicated by the victim OR villain dichotomy. When he is, clearly, both. We seem to be under the impression that those with some sort of victim status cannot be villains in their own right. While, Anakin might be a victim in the context of his fall (which I would argue happens in the moment when he turns on Mace Windu), he is a villain in all that happens subsequently. Up to the moment he pitches Palpatine down the shift, everything he does is with villainous motivation. One can understand how his fall should come to be... but that does not excuse what he does after.
In answer to the title, its all three. If the Jedi were able to be more flexible and empathetic to accommodate Anakin's unique circumstances he wouldn't have fallen. If Palpatine hadn't gotten his claws into him he wouldn't have fallen. If Anakin had learned to overcome his flaws he wouldn't have fallen.
Overall, victim, but both really.
Palps definitely did a lot of work behind the scenes to make sure Anakin was off balance - imagine if any of the assassination attempts on Padme at the beginning of episode 2 had worked, for example? There's no way Palpers wasn't involved in them at least a little.
The Jedi order could have done more to help him too - freeing his mother from slavery for example, would have been a fantastic choice, even if they were kept apart afterwards. I'm sure their reasoning for not doing that was fine though, from a certain point of view...
However, once Anakin thought he was beyond redemption, he is the villain. He could have simply run from his title, fled courscant and become another refugee of order 66. If he never drew his blade against the order, still victim. Right up until the end of the duel with Obi Wan, i think he could have pulled back from the dark side and accepted his actions and accepted punishment and tried to make amends for them. When he goes from rightous fury to burning hate, he's lost and fully the villain, but still a victim.
I can't decide if George Lucas is incompetent at subtext or a genius? Obviously, Anakin is under Palpatine's influence from the moment they meet at the end of The Phantom Menace. He is being manipulated subtly by a very patient Dark Lord of the Sith just as the rest of the Jedi order is.
“ You don’t know the Power of the Darkside, I must obey my Master!”
Anakin's story is at the core a human story: from wide eyed innocent child having to leave mother behind to thrill seeking youth & impassioned adulthood. His CHOICE (good call there Thor) at the crucial moment is what deviated his otherwise normal human story into a hellish realm that he convinced himself he couldn't escape. Twas only the blinding light of his son's selfless dedication that allowed him to be redeemed in any capacity, and any redemption for such a monster is certainly a happy ending.
The Jedi I feel like lacked perspective, which I feel like is something that's intentional with how Obi Wan talks about points of view in IV, the Jedi are definitely portrayed as having a singular mindset and oblivious to their shortcomings which allowed them to be subverted. They lacked perspective on Anakin, and didn't really trust Qui Gon and his wishes, so when they trained Anakin they were reluctant and they were much harder on him than other Padawans. While I understand their hesitancy to make him a master, the real thing that bothered Anakin I think there was he knew they didn't trust him at all, and when you have people keeping you at a distance it makes you resent them more, especially when they don't really want to understand whats going on.
What nails the tragedy of it is he was so close to sticking to the light side, telling Windu about Palpatine, if he had stuck to that, things would be very different, and it was that decision to kill Mace Windu, was his own decision, not anyone elses, that sealed his fate. It wasnt palpatines strings or the Jedi's coldness, it was his own, childish impulse.
I really do believe that the complication to this question really depends on the person answering. What is their personal story they’re strong. For me and my part I’ve gone through a lot of stuff and overcome a lot of stuff so I can see how it’s complicated. However despite all of that he is the villain. The reason why is because of his entitlements. He spent half of his life believing he’s the chosen one is better and stronger and faster than the other and JeTaun. That instilled in him a sense of entitlement and hubris. He willfully and deliberately chose to not be humble to not be meek because it wasn’t exciting. And in that he has chosen the Darkside. He has chosen to turn away from all teachings. He willfully deliberately lied about his marriage and his love. He’s our ex of evil. And I think that’s why he was able to be sweet. Palpa teen in the safe so that evil in him and that they can extract him for his wealth and his resources which was the power of the force. Because no matter how strong he was as a fortune JoJo in as a Jedi, Anakin Skywalker was weak. His emotional and spiritual status never wavered from his 10 year old self. The trauma they experienced in his freedom stunted his growth.
I want a Star Wars What If series with one episode(or story arc) being about Revenge of the Sith having a happy ending.
1) The Jedi for already considering Anakin a problem child after sensing some darkness
2) Palpatine for manipulating him for the last 13 years
3) And Anakin who at the end of the day was not held at lightsaber point and chose to be Palpatine’s apprentice
The Jedi wasn’t wrong about Anakin they just didn’t lack faith.
@@jaieregilmore971 To be fair the Jedi Code is also what pushed Dooku towards the Dark Side, it was heavily flawed. Anakin NEEDED attachments, he was born a slave, he needed people around him who actually cared. The problem is Anakin needed one thing the Jedi seemingly don't believe in, therapy.
@@megaman37456 yeah I understand that but both Anakin and Dooku shouldn’t have give up in the end of the day the dark side isn’t worth it.
@@jaieregilmore971 The thing is, the Jedi KNOW the Dark Side wasn't worth it, and Dooku's intention was to betray Sidious, the problem being that if you join the dark side it corrupts your mind if you stay on it for too long.
They didn’t sense darkness when he was a child!! There was none!! They feared the prophecy and what it meant for the Jedi!! And in the end it became a self fulfilling prophecy…🤷🏻♀️
Palpatine was so good at manipulation, he even convinced the fans that it's the Jedi's fault Anakin became a Dark Jedi.
That's true, Anakin could always walk away as a Jedi if he wanted. He just didnt because... I'm not sure.
Still bothers me that many think this way. "Villain or victim?" Since when did those become mutually exclusive? Most real-world villains were decent kids once. Doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their actions.
All you said is true as reasons why this happened. But I say that Anakin was a bit self-centered He thought he was a bit better then the others. So Palpatine used that and made him argue that he deserved to be in the Jedi Council. He also couldn't listening in what was said Mace said if it was true that Palpatine was the Sith lord, he would rethink his belief in him ( or something) So if he had stayed and not followed Mace he might have gotten a place in the council. So i say Anakins self centered mind was the reason
I would blame all three
A slave has nothing. A slave is nothing. A slave - unlike the poor man, who does not know if he will eat tomorrow - does not know what he will do tomorrow. His life, his existence, everything he cares for is nothing. All is subsumed to his master's life, existence, and cares.
Therefore, a slave becoming a Jedi and gaining free agency, is more at risk of falling to the dark side than anyone. The imbalance of power is shifted so starkly - like a vacuum suddenly exposed to air - that great storms are created in the human heart and mind. Each of us should ask ourselves this: "Were I in his place, would I do any better, or any differently?"
Anakin is definitely a tragic villain who made horrible choices thanks in no small part to both the state of the current Jedi system during the prequels as well as Palpatine's manipulation.
That said, one of the main turning points of him leading to the wrong path was when he himself decided to slaughter all of the Tusken raiders, even those who had nothing to do with what happened to his mother.
That kind of trauma definitely left a huge impact into his psyche eventually making him more paranoid that he might lose Padme too. All ot took was Palpatine's false promises and the council's rigid structure at that time to finally turn him to the dark side.
4:38 Ah yes, these problems NEVER came up and saw dozens of not hundreds of jedi fall to the dark side in ANY part of the history of the Jedi.
Neverrrrr~ 🤣🤣🤣
I completely agree with your take kinda hate all the Jedi hate going around the fandom especially when you got so much better things to point to than shit people make up
I think one of the key things that makes it so that Anakin is to blame is the dishonesty he lived by for years. He lied to his friends and mentors in the Jedi order for years. That wears on a person even in the real world but it is also a path to the dark side.
Actually Obi Wan already knew about Anakin and Padme during the clone wars even before episode three. But he saw how happy she made Anakin, and he didn’t want to take that away from him. Being the chosen one Anakin was too important to the Jedi, he also felt an obligation to them in spite of keeping a big secret from them. However Obi Wan and the Jedi once deceived Anakin during the clone wars by making it seem that Obi Wan has been killed. Also they didn’t believe in Ashoka’s innocence, and they threw her under the bus just to maintain their image.
@@jmwilliamsart very little of that matters to what I said. Obi-Wan knowing doesn't change the fact that Anakin was lying since the first day of the Clone Wars. Those lies take a psychological toll. And it was made fairly clear that Padme didn't know that Obi-Wan knew in RotS until he said something about the pregnancy.
He was so easy to manipulate, you wonder why he was the "chosen one" But on the other hand now we have a clear reason for the Jedi only taking infants instead of people on the edge of puberty. So really Qui Gon is to blame for breaking well established procedure. I kid, Anakin should be a man and shoulder responsibility for his behavior. Do the honorable thing and turn his lightsabre on under his chin like I've seen in some hilarious videos.
Both. A victim of "fate" and a villain to his victims. It all started because, for centuries, Yoda denied his own darkside before accepting it during his encounter with the Wills.
Is Anakin a victim? Yes. He's a victim of Palpatine's manipulation and abuse. He and his mother were victims of slavery. But when it comes to his decision to commit the Tusken Massacre? To take on the name Vader, to massacre the Jedi, young and old and all the crimes he did through the OT? That is on him. He knew what he was doing was wrong and chose to do it anyway. He knew he had to face his own fears, work on his flaws to be a better person but chose the easier path Palpatine offered. He can be both a victim and a villain.
Lucas points this out almost every time he talks about Anakin's fall. That ultimately, he was responsible for it. Lucas knew he was going to lose a certain demographic of people because they expected Anakin to be one of two things: An evil little boy from the get go, which TPM disproves. Or, to suffer some great betrayal that pushed him over the edge in ROTS. But that's not what happened or the story Lucas wanted to tell. To quote him specifically: "They wanted a real betrayal, such as, ‘You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you.’ They didn't understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine."
This is also why I don't factor in the Jedi because in all of Lucas' quotes on the subject he never once mentions the Jedi have a part in it. It's always about Anakin himself and Palpatine. And I think the films support that. Maybe not in a perfect way but it's there.
So you say fans back then wanted The Last Jedi and for Obi-Wan to be an attempted murderer? 😂 Sometimes I think Lucas doesn't understand what fans want.
@user-yq9im9dk9z That quote was from the Making of Revenge of the Sith book. This was after he'd shown the story to some people including Speilberg. They were having trouble understanding why Anakin fell. And that's something that was brought up. I don't think fans wanted Obi-Wan to be a murderer or whatever else. But it is easier to understand why some when off the deep end if they felt betrayed. It's a common enough trope.
Now as for Lucas knowing what fans want I don't think he cared. In the same section he says: "Fortunately, Steven confirmed that most of everything was working. So, I may lose a certain demographic-maybe, maybe not. But I had to make a decision, and I decided that I'm not going to alter the film to make it more commercial or marketable. I have to be true to my vision, which is thirty years old, but I have to be true to it."
Anakin was just a poor manipulated pawn. He wasn't "seduced by the dark side". He was just doing what Palpatine told him would save Padme. That's what I hate so much about the prequels. Anakin's harrowing, fabled fall to the dark side that we all wondered about, was just him being manipulated.
What always bothers me about the prequels is how they mostly fail to show what Anakin must have been going through. To get an inkling of that you have to read the novelizations of the movies... maybe the _Darth Plagueis_ novel (for context) and all of the CW cartoons I guess. It's a big canvas.
@@Raygo. anakin LITERALLY can’t shut up about his “”feelings”” in the prequels so WHAT are you talking about??? 🤨
@@benclark4823 I guess you never heard of the difference between "show" and "tell". The additional sources I mentioned add depth and detail absent from the movies, sorry if that's beyond you.
@@Raygo. The "prequels are awesome" cult can't be reasoned with. They take it personally when we have legitimate criticisms of their boring, bloated, terribly written trilogy.
I don't think Anakin was a Villain, nor do I think he was a Victim. Villainy implies evil intent, but his actions were to save someone he loved (in his mind). A victim is someone who is used, but here he knew what he was getting into. When faced with an unwinnable situation he cried in the Jedi Temple because he knew he was going to let someone down either way. I would call Anakin a fallen hero, maybe something more akin to anti-villain.
Blame Canada!!!
Wrong franchise, but nice reference
Blame it on the alcohol. 🤔... 🥃🍺... 😳
*"NUFF SAID"™️*
Perhaps having a video discussing Qui-Gon’s motives of taking Anakin away from his mother, even though it was away from slavery as well. Why not find a way to save the mother as well. The myth of “the chosen one” seems seductive.
Keep in mind that Watto implanted tracking devices in all his slaves' bodies that would trigger an explosion if they moved beyond the range of his tracking transmitter, which would've killed Shmi.
While it could be argued that the Jedi could've paid for her freedom, it's highly unlikely that Watto would've relented, considering he lost everything else betting against Anakin in the podrace. And had the Jedi tried to free Shmi by force, Watto would've reported them to the Hutts, possibly sparking a political incident.
Even in the best case scenario where the Jedi did free Shmi and moved her to another planet with better life conditions, it wouldn't have changed much for the better. She and Anakin still would've been kept apart and Shmi probably would've had an unhappy life alone in a completely strange world to her.
Vader and Anakin are not two people; they’re two sides. Anakin- loyalty and kindness, Vader- revenge and aggression
The blame can go around. It’s not even as simple as saying Anakin made his choices. Because what were the circumstances/influences that led to Anakin making those choices?
I Totally Agree! Just Because Others Might Not Be Doing the Right Thing isn't Justification for You to do the Wrong Thing! And Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right!
I’m still rewatching clone wars in my Star Wars chronological rewatch all the way from phantom menace to the mabdalorian and I’m right before the last ark of season 5 aka the ahsoka gets framed arc and that arc really shows the buildup to his downfall and as other comments point out all three parties the Jedi,palpatine,and anakin himself…
There are so many outside factors that pushed Anakin to the brink; Palpatine, the fear of losing Padmé, his antagonism towards the Jedi, and the resentment of never having enough throughout his life…
But he was still ultimately in control of his decisions and destiny, and so the fault lies mostly on him.
💯 💯
I think we all tend to be the masters of our own disasters. While outside influences certainly had their effect, it was his own failings (need for attachments, uncontrollable rage, etc.) that were instrumental in what he becomes.
The questions are surely meaningless if we accept that what happens in the story is the will of the Force. Every single thing that we see in the saga only has meaning in the context of the Force... it's kind of baked into the SW cake, isn't it? And the ultimate meaning is that a person may be redeemed, may be forgiven for evil acts if at the end they choose to do good. Which does seem terribly unfair from a superficial, mundane viewpoint. But then in real life we have the problem of evil ... what is it? Is it a real thing? Why do terrible things happen to good people and why can't we stop them from happening? Life under the sun is perhaps only a journey to find answers to such questions.
I don’t think that just because the Jedi Order and the rules that it follows have lasted a long time necessarily means it worked. In both continuities there were schisms and civil conflicts in the Order regarding its principles that became full-scale wars. Also, the atmosphere and rigid ideology we see in the prequels are present in the 1,000 year era following the Sith Wars and are not representative of the Order’s methods throughout its history. So it may not have even “worked” as long as it may seem.
I agree. A lot of Jedi had problems with the attachment code and some even left or married in secret. They just didn't slaughter a bunch of children or enslave a entire galaxy. Marriage does not lead to violence or evil. Anakin was just possessive over Padme
I feel like he was influenced but did it out of consciousness
I've always seen it as a combination of all 3 for why he fell.
Hey Thor, as continuation of this video, I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether the Jedi hold some responsibility for the many other members of their order that fell to the dark side. Dooku, Anakin, Ben or Jacen Solo, Revan and Malak, Kreia, Exar Kun, Darth Krayt and many more used their training to inflict great harm on the galaxy. Are these outliers, or is there some inherent failing in the teachings of the Jedi that causes some to so violently reject what they've been taught?
The inherent flaw is fans asking for more Star Wars stories. They should just let go and practice that Jedi teaching :)
No all of them fell due to their own choices. Dooku as revealed in the Jedi Path book had early red flags of a future Sith believing the Jedi should be more social Darwinist and only recruit the strongest members of the Order. Malak and Revan sought forbidden knowledge and that is why they fell.
He was a powerful Jedi who needed more training and deciplain who was distracted by a compelling and no peers his age with equivalent power. Some great athletes today fall into this same teap and become bad.
I see your point in that it's worked for thousands of years but also it couldn't have turned out worse with anyone else in the order within that time either
The problem is that the Jedi order had been stagnating, it had also become overly dogmatic, rigid, too detached from others, and too entrenched in the Republic’s politics. In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith Yoda realizes that he bore a lot of the blame because he was too rigid, he didn’t allow the order to change, to evolve. The Jedi had foolishly believed that the Sith would attack them the same way they did 1,000 years ago (with a big army). It didn’t occur to them that the Sith would evolve, that they would become more powerful, that they would destroy them from within (Palpatine in office). All the Jedi trained for was to fight the last battle, because they forbid any study of the dark side they were unprepared for the Sith when they revealed themselves.
There were many external factors. But Anakin’s choices were still his own. I’m a Anakin fan and apologist, but I’d say all three of them are equally to blame. I’ve always kind of wondered why, were Anakin and Padmé so fearful and worried about them both being married and having children? I mean if the only thing that was going, to happen was a major scandal, i.e. Anakin gets expelled from the Jedi Order and Padmé loses her position in the senate. Which sure would kind of be bad, but they act like they’re lives or the lives of their children will be somehow in danger if anyone found out. Has anyone every thought about this before?
To my knowledge that's all there really is to it. And considering that Anakin is a war hero, it may not be that big of a scandal for her if he resigns (maybe call it retires) from the order.
He's a fictional character. I blame the WRITERS! 🤣
I don't think there's ever a villian who isn't also at least a little bit a victim. That never excuses them, though.
Hey Thor, do you think Luke's new jedi order should've followed the rules about attachments like it seems he did in Canon, or should he have done his own thing like in Legends?
Well, in which canon the Order is alive and well? Filoni didn't even explain why Luke follows that rule when he never knew it existed.
As a huge Anakin fan, the answer is an obvious "blame him" for me.
Sure there were a billion contributing factors from the outside but HE chose the entirely selfish path in the end. If we consider TCW in the equation, he should have realized the jedi didn't share his values at the very least by Ahsoka's adandonment of the order.
Should've left then and there himself. If we consider the comics, Obi-Wan talked him out of leaving very early on when he was still a child.
If we consider only the movies, he should've left the order when they asked him to spy on the chancellor. The fact he bottled so many things up and then betrayed himself for them, knowing they don't share his values was what got him there.
Certainly the jedi order was lacking and maybe QuiGon would've known better how to handle Anakin, but when he was continually at odds with who he was and who the jedi wanted him to be that likely drove him down the path more than anything. Likely Anakin was never destined to be the standard jedi and they did allow him some exceptions here and there, but the fact was he could never be what jedi were in those days and that was the standard they judged him ny anyway. He should've left at least in adulthood.
The Jedi failed in so many ways, but Anakin has to take responsibility for his terrible actions during his fall and the countless crimes he committed afterwards.
Star Wars fans can't think straight and often completely blame the Jedi for Anakin's fall. The real reason for Anakin's fall is a combination of Anakin joining the Jedi late (which is why they were unsure about him joining them), Palpatine's manipulations, and the Jedi both not knowing about Anakin's problems, and probably being unprepared to deal with them even if they did know.
Attachments can lead to good, but it can also be taken advantage of by manipulative people like Palpatine. And that's why Ahsoka refuses to train Grogu. Yet the fans say Ahsoka is a Grey Jedi and hates the Jedi Order because she believes in attachments. No that's not it
the answer is all 3.
Exactly
So before watching the video, jus going from the question in the title:
I'd say: all of them. Anakin made multiple choices that contributed to his fall, starting with the fact that he pursued Padme romantically (she also decided to be with him besides knowing that it is forbidden, so you could even argue she is partly to blame as well. Takes two to tango afterall)
But the Jedi at the time also made decisions that pushed Anakin into a corner from his perspective while Palpatine also clearly tried to manipulate him.
Qui-Gon wanted to train him. But I do think this could have been the will of the force, since he was one of the few Jedi at the time who focused on that.
You could maybe argue agreeing on training him under Obi-Wan might have been the first small mistake. Obi-Wan at the time was still not that experienced. Considering the bond they shared however, I am not sure this was a big issue (in comparison to Qui-Gon maybe, but I am not sure other Jedi would have done a better job).
First big step was (as mentioned above) his relationship with Padme. He pursued it, she went along with it and everyone that might have an idea about it didn't act (for the better or worse, who knows what would happen if they act on it)
After that we see for a long time how he feels unfairly treated by the council - and Palpatine uses these feelings to manipulate him.
Next big one is Padme getting pregnant for sure, it added pressure on Anakin.
His visions are the next factor, and Palpatine again uses his emotions "against" him.
What followed is the next big decision by him where he actually falls to the dark side, this in the end is still on him. He could have forced himself to stay behind and wait. Palpatine again used this situation to his advantage to manipulate him, but Anakin is the one who acted exactly how Palpatine wanted.
Taking a few of those out of the picture and he might not fall.
Ultimately Anakin himself made the choice, he chose to kill all those younglings and allow the galaxy to fall to a dictator.
It's fair to point out the many problems of the Jedi, as well as the sinister machinations of Palpatine. They certainly played a role. But ultimately it was Anakin's choice.
Anakin get most of the blame here.
Let's not forget that he's slaughtered an entire village of Tuskans way, way before his affair with Padme, the Council not promoting him to Master and his fall to the Dark Side.
Him grieving for his mother does not, in any way, justify killing the entire settlement, including women and children. That's genocide, folks.
If anything, Padme shares a part of the blame for his further actions because she's failed to mention that *atrocity* to anyone, let alone the Jedi. Maybe, just maybe, if she did that, Anakin has been either reformed, or stripped of his rank and free to pursue a relationship with her. So many possibilities.
That was an act brought on by Anakin’s grief, which turned into blind rage. Anakin did feel remorse for what he had done to the Tuskens. Padme could see that he was being torn by grief and remorse, and decided to comfort him. Also the Tuskens weren’t innocent victims, they had murdered many innocent people and tortured others. It’s not like there’s any law enforcement who Anakin could go to who would arrest the Tuskens for their heinous actions. I don’t like Anakin’s actions anymore than you do, but I have to ask who will speak for the victims of those Tuskens?
That's an easy question to answer. Anakin is literally a son of the Force. Not a son of the light side of the Force. He's a son of the Force; all of it. He's just as complete as his Father. But he was raised with the Jedi Order, and he was always taught that the dark side is evil, the Jedi Order not thinking out what they were teaching him. There's no way ANYBODY can grow to be a well-adjusted person if he's always told that half of his entire being is evil. And the Jedi Order was wrong in its belief, and it so happens to be one of the big lessons that the Force taught Yoda before his training to become a Force ghost. It really is interesting to see that the entire time Anakin was Jedi, you could see the dark side coming out of him; and while he was Sith, the light was always there, plain to see by Padme who asserted that "there's good in him," by Luke who kept asserting the same thing, by Sidious who kept observing it, and also by Vader himself, who kept on trying to snuff the light out by keeping himself in pain and attempting to keep himself angry. He's his Father's son.
Hello well it is not as if the narrative is that consistent and coherent through the whole series. The build up of the 3 arguments relies on people interpretations of disjointed facts. for example episode 2 the jedi master are concerned about Anakin, but in episode 3 he himself mention that there is something wrong with him to be told that "nah, it will be fine mate". Not to mention not freeing his mother.
They probably are all have a part of responsibility but it really is something that we, the audience have to ad, because it is not really being told to us. ie like in carmilla, it is clear that Carmilla is in love with Laura, but it is up to reader to decide if she let herself destroyed or not.
While Anakin bears some responsibility due to his emotional/personality issues & certainly Palpatine took advantage of the situation, I think ultimately the responsibility lies with Yoda & the Jedi. Qui-gon chose to flaunt the "rules" attempting to train Anakin which led to Obi-wan feeling pressured into doing the same. Yoda approved of it despite his obvious misgivings. Despite frequent issues during his training, Obi-wan continued despite his growing reservations. Lip service was paid to the idea that the Jedi misread the "chosen one" prophecy. Apparently no discussions were had as to whether Obi-wan was the proper person to be training Anakin, especially considering his emotional issues with Satine. Windu's aloof relationship with Anakin provided Anakin with a foil in the Council. The Jedi's treatment of Ahsoka gave Anakin reason to question the Order. Yoda giving emotional advice to anyone, let alone Anakin is a poor choice considering Yoda's cryptic answers that are locked into doctrine and considering that Yoda (with an 800+ year life span) probably has a MUCH different perspective on attachment, loss & emotions than a human - it reminds me of the scenes in Chernobyl where the lead technician tells everyone to read the manual & saying "It's impossible" despite massive evidence to the contrary that the reactor exploded.
I also question whether or not Thor's statement about disillusioned Jedi being able to just walk away is accurate; I have not read all SW literature but it seems like the Jedi are potentially too powerful to just be left roaming the galaxy because you are emotionally challenged. Getting pissed at the teacher & saying "i'm out of here!" while carrying a lightsaber is a recipe for problems down the road. Certainly Ahsoka did it, but was it a common occurrence? It seems like this type of issue would have been a recurring problem over the years. Does it seem plausible that if Anakin told the Council "I'm done" that they really would have just let him walk away?
The Jedi have some blame and Anakin has some blame. However, even if the Jedi had done better at training Anakin. Palpatine would have adjusted too. Let's just say Quigon survived the fight with Maul. It's possible Palpatine just has him killed later in some weird way. As long as Palpatine became chancellor and had Anakins ear he would do everything he could to corrupt him. And if he was not discovered no one would counter him.
When Yoda tells him to learn to let go, you have to understand that this coming from some one who is nearly 900 years old. Anakin cant even begin to comprenhend just how many people has Yoda seen pass away over the years
Hey thor are you going to restart battle of the heroes and villains this weekend. If so are you planning to put out the quinlan vos video tomorrow, or friday/saturday.?
It's interesting how Vader himself seemed to view it later on. I know the Kenobi Show wasn't that good overall, but what I really liked were two things:
- Vaders answer to the question "What have you become" by Obi Wan on their first encounter in the show being: "I am what you made me", which is by itself a line that gave me chills with James Earl Jones' voice, but can also be seen in multiple ways. Physically Obi Wan made Anakin into the cyborg Vader is by not making sure he died. You can also ask if the good that still is in Vader is sad that Obi Wan kinda gave up on him or wasn't there when he needed him most. And you could argue that maybe Vader still blames the Jedi for failing him and making him into what he is now. I think these layers were really beautiful in a way and it fits perfectly with this topic.
- Secondly on paper it's a throwaway line, but how James Earl Jones said "did you truly think you could defeat me?" when Vader buried Obi Wan in the rocks was just so sad. I loved it. To me it kinda showed that he is sad to think he killed Obi Wan and also knows he has all this power but has still lost everything he ever loved.
Hey Thor,
So I've mentioned to several friends and in a few comments section, I belive yours included, that the Old Republic is a gold mine of stories for movies, games, or shows with my preference being a long formatted Game of Thrones style of storytelling show starting from the outbreak of the Mandalorian Wars going right up to or even into the KOTOR games. My question is if you had the power and ability what kind of content would you loke to see most come from this era assuming Disney ever does it right? Or if you could, what would you personally want to write or make from this era and how what would it be like?
He’s both a victim and a villain.