My thoughts to your thoughts.. Full Caster? May as well just apply the flavor of a Warlock to the rules of any of the other MU classes. Cleric comes to mind most strongly, for bloodlines perhaps the Sorcerer. Miracles? Seems to have too much setting plot baked into it. Either presumes about what it means for a deity to be a deity, or about Patrons. For some kinds of Warlocks I think it would seem appropriate, others not... may trip up what may be the entire point, what may be what Warlocks really have to offer which other classes don't (not just front-loaded game-breaking MMPOL-isms) Bigger question about miracles is whether they would be fun. Them being so powerful would need them to ask a bigger investment than other features, perhaps, and I can imagine them all too often not even having an effect... which brings us back to the "linear Fighter, quadratic Wizard" problem, and there's enough thumb-twiddling examples of waiting to play the game going on already I think. Incarnations. This is where my thoughts begin to follow more where you go with this... If you keep Warlock as a flexible concept, you could make it all about the features. Always-active consequences rock. Most fun. Following along the lines of spells? Eh... that's where you get all kinds of balance issues, and you need to bend the spells to make them character traits. When accepting that Warlocks are Warlocky through them using spells (ignoring everything else about them which makes them so cool), you see that the spells which are special for them really define them. Doing stuff represents what they incarnate or represent, and connects them at least a little bit to the narrative of how they got their pact. I think you may as well follow monster abilities instead of spells. Make the source variable, and you get the X-Men, and you lean into levels granting features... goes well with them being regular people who have pacts happen to them... dabblers in dangerous weirdness from questionable sources to questionable consequence. A natural (heh... for lack of a better term) class for multiclassing, and a way to represent all kinds of things which don't fit into the normal class structure, including races like Dhampir, Tiefling, Half-x, etc, and even focusing on features which the normal classes don't (Druid Wildshape really getting more lycanthrope warrior, Trickster ledgerdomain, Cleric Channel Divinity) I'd go a bit more Diabloesque with it... class feature trees. But stay away from spells most of the time, same with cooldowns and such.
So much here... rather than answering you directly, I'm mostly going to just double check that I understand you. 1. You seem to lean pretty far to the side of wanting class features completely divorced from the lore story and narrative. Is that right? You seem to want those elements to be optional. 2. the fun of miracles is largely to have game mechanics match up with narrative and lore. Given '1.' this seems to naturally be something you are not exited about. Given the specific mechanics for miracles, if you like Contingent Spells, or Glyph-of-Warding Shenanigans, (I do) I think they'll be a lot of fun. 3. I don't think I followed everything you were saying about Warlocks having specific spells which define them. You seem to like the idea of Warlocks having at will and continuously active abilities, rather than traditional "spells" or features with cooldowns or resource management. That's a lot like the dnd 3.5 warlock, and I agree that option really seems to shine as a kind of class identity for them. 4. 'Warlocks as a way to a way to represent all kinds of things which don't fit into the normal class structure'. Like lycanthropy, monster abilities, etc. I could probably put together a version of the warlock that does this. It would still be using the bones of the dnd, but I think it could work well. let me know if you have a hunger for something like that. 5. Class feature trees... well, that's a bit out-of-scope for this video, but in general, yes. Class feature trees are much preferred over a set progression system.
@ModularGames For my own gaming I prefer the mechanics being applicable totally independently... to be applied to any lore; after the lore/concept of the situation has been imagined, then rules chosen to best represent that... not choose the rule and then make a concept or situation represent the rule. It's a broad topic for discussion... IF that way of thinking is followed for how to use the Warlock, then some consideration might be taken toward design. Others would still imagine a Warlock being primarily about the magic. Miracles as contingent triggers might suit that... but maybe suit Wizards better. I guess that puts the conversation back into the order of conceptualization again... "here's a cool way to do spells" then being applied to Warlocks because you like the cool way to do spells. Conversation seems better to be discussed while tabling the Warlock and just thinking about the magic system. Immediately, I remember how Vancian magic is supposed to work. Spells being prepared as complicated mystic words of power and ritual grafted temporarily into a Wizard's mind... released as the spell is cast and needing to be prepared/memorized again to be cast again. It already seems like a very similar concept to how you've described miracles, unless there's something I've missed. ... so then, that brings me back to my thinking about the mechanic itself. It seems more Wizard than Wizard, falling back into the "problem" in playing Wizards in that situationally they are possibly too effective while most of the time actually doing nothing at all... if their magic are all prepared contingency triggers, then they either don't have a lot of gameplay interaction in moments when they are triggered or have no gameplay interaction because they aren't triggered. If I were to work with such a system, I'd lean toward the feeling of "spell binding". Find some way to expedite and apply the process of preparing those miracle triggers to situations... make it something that can be done during or immediately before a combat where the caster has some idea what they would be trying to "spell bind" and then resolve it like a crew trying to constrain a monster/foe by tethering it with a consecutive series of ropes; the MU trying to establish series of "rules"... magical effects having more consecutive control or impact over it. ... For Warlocks? Well.. it would be different if those miracles would be something like the influence of a Patron. A fiend patron? Those miracle triggers might be imaginable as concepts like soul chains or dominating contract clauses which gradually constrain the victim. Or, something more versatile conceptually; the "binds" being assertions of influence... a Great Old One patron establishing psychic links or control, an Archfey beguiling them or misdirecting their will, etc etc. .. I suppose that I am veering too far away from the established spell lists. It looks more like the old 2nd Edition Psionics system. ... on #3, Eldritch blast, Hellish Rebuke, Hex... these things make a Warlock distinct. It offers something separate from the other MUs... an example of class features/skills/mechanics providing. It's kind of how many seem to come to the choice of multiclassing into Warlock... getting a cantrip and a spell... it's similar thinking to dipping for a level or two for the reason of getting a feature or ability... and yeah, a lot like 3rd/3.5
Another idea for a magic system for Warlocks... Import the dot mechanics from White Wolf. Get the Disciplines from Vampire, Rage/Gnosis from Werewolf, Glamour from Changeling, etc... and pair them with things like Humanity and Clarity which tie the consequences of these supernatural elements into their characters as obligations/challenges.
Perhaps you should consider "Promises as a MAGIC SYSTEM?" , a video by TheTaleFoundry , or some of their other magic systems videos. But that video seems to have some ideas which might go with your Miracle magic.
Игры
My thoughts to your thoughts..
Full Caster? May as well just apply the flavor of a Warlock to the rules of any of the other MU classes. Cleric comes to mind most strongly, for bloodlines perhaps the Sorcerer.
Miracles? Seems to have too much setting plot baked into it. Either presumes about what it means for a deity to be a deity, or about Patrons. For some kinds of Warlocks I think it would seem appropriate, others not... may trip up what may be the entire point, what may be what Warlocks really have to offer which other classes don't (not just front-loaded game-breaking MMPOL-isms)
Bigger question about miracles is whether they would be fun. Them being so powerful would need them to ask a bigger investment than other features, perhaps, and I can imagine them all too often not even having an effect... which brings us back to the "linear Fighter, quadratic Wizard" problem, and there's enough thumb-twiddling examples of waiting to play the game going on already I think.
Incarnations. This is where my thoughts begin to follow more where you go with this...
If you keep Warlock as a flexible concept, you could make it all about the features. Always-active consequences rock. Most fun. Following along the lines of spells? Eh... that's where you get all kinds of balance issues, and you need to bend the spells to make them character traits.
When accepting that Warlocks are Warlocky through them using spells (ignoring everything else about them which makes them so cool), you see that the spells which are special for them really define them. Doing stuff represents what they incarnate or represent, and connects them at least a little bit to the narrative of how they got their pact.
I think you may as well follow monster abilities instead of spells. Make the source variable, and you get the X-Men, and you lean into levels granting features... goes well with them being regular people who have pacts happen to them... dabblers in dangerous weirdness from questionable sources to questionable consequence. A natural (heh... for lack of a better term) class for multiclassing, and a way to represent all kinds of things which don't fit into the normal class structure, including races like Dhampir, Tiefling, Half-x, etc, and even focusing on features which the normal classes don't (Druid Wildshape really getting more lycanthrope warrior, Trickster ledgerdomain, Cleric Channel Divinity)
I'd go a bit more Diabloesque with it... class feature trees. But stay away from spells most of the time, same with cooldowns and such.
So much here... rather than answering you directly, I'm mostly going to just double check that I understand you.
1. You seem to lean pretty far to the side of wanting class features completely divorced from the lore story and narrative. Is that right? You seem to want those elements to be optional.
2. the fun of miracles is largely to have game mechanics match up with narrative and lore. Given '1.' this seems to naturally be something you are not exited about. Given the specific mechanics for miracles, if you like Contingent Spells, or Glyph-of-Warding Shenanigans, (I do) I think they'll be a lot of fun.
3. I don't think I followed everything you were saying about Warlocks having specific spells which define them. You seem to like the idea of Warlocks having at will and continuously active abilities, rather than traditional "spells" or features with cooldowns or resource management. That's a lot like the dnd 3.5 warlock, and I agree that option really seems to shine as a kind of class identity for them.
4. 'Warlocks as a way to a way to represent all kinds of things which don't fit into the normal class structure'. Like lycanthropy, monster abilities, etc. I could probably put together a version of the warlock that does this. It would still be using the bones of the dnd, but I think it could work well. let me know if you have a hunger for something like that.
5. Class feature trees... well, that's a bit out-of-scope for this video, but in general, yes. Class feature trees are much preferred over a set progression system.
@ModularGames For my own gaming I prefer the mechanics being applicable totally independently... to be applied to any lore; after the lore/concept of the situation has been imagined, then rules chosen to best represent that... not choose the rule and then make a concept or situation represent the rule. It's a broad topic for discussion...
IF that way of thinking is followed for how to use the Warlock, then some consideration might be taken toward design.
Others would still imagine a Warlock being primarily about the magic. Miracles as contingent triggers might suit that... but maybe suit Wizards better.
I guess that puts the conversation back into the order of conceptualization again... "here's a cool way to do spells" then being applied to Warlocks because you like the cool way to do spells. Conversation seems better to be discussed while tabling the Warlock and just thinking about the magic system.
Immediately, I remember how Vancian magic is supposed to work. Spells being prepared as complicated mystic words of power and ritual grafted temporarily into a Wizard's mind... released as the spell is cast and needing to be prepared/memorized again to be cast again. It already seems like a very similar concept to how you've described miracles, unless there's something I've missed.
... so then, that brings me back to my thinking about the mechanic itself. It seems more Wizard than Wizard, falling back into the "problem" in playing Wizards in that situationally they are possibly too effective while most of the time actually doing nothing at all... if their magic are all prepared contingency triggers, then they either don't have a lot of gameplay interaction in moments when they are triggered or have no gameplay interaction because they aren't triggered.
If I were to work with such a system, I'd lean toward the feeling of "spell binding". Find some way to expedite and apply the process of preparing those miracle triggers to situations... make it something that can be done during or immediately before a combat where the caster has some idea what they would be trying to "spell bind" and then resolve it like a crew trying to constrain a monster/foe by tethering it with a consecutive series of ropes; the MU trying to establish series of "rules"... magical effects having more consecutive control or impact over it.
...
For Warlocks? Well.. it would be different if those miracles would be something like the influence of a Patron. A fiend patron? Those miracle triggers might be imaginable as concepts like soul chains or dominating contract clauses which gradually constrain the victim. Or, something more versatile conceptually; the "binds" being assertions of influence... a Great Old One patron establishing psychic links or control, an Archfey beguiling them or misdirecting their will, etc etc. ..
I suppose that I am veering too far away from the established spell lists. It looks more like the old 2nd Edition Psionics system.
... on #3,
Eldritch blast, Hellish Rebuke, Hex... these things make a Warlock distinct. It offers something separate from the other MUs... an example of class features/skills/mechanics providing. It's kind of how many seem to come to the choice of multiclassing into Warlock... getting a cantrip and a spell... it's similar thinking to dipping for a level or two for the reason of getting a feature or ability... and yeah, a lot like 3rd/3.5
Another idea for a magic system for Warlocks...
Import the dot mechanics from White Wolf. Get the Disciplines from Vampire, Rage/Gnosis from Werewolf, Glamour from Changeling, etc... and pair them with things like Humanity and Clarity which tie the consequences of these supernatural elements into their characters as obligations/challenges.
Perhaps you should consider "Promises as a MAGIC SYSTEM?" , a video by TheTaleFoundry , or some of their other magic systems videos. But that video seems to have some ideas which might go with your Miracle magic.
@@hellsente7826 I've seen it before, but I'll double check. Thankyou.