Yes, it works, as everyone can hear from the video. The PA head will amplify whatever you put into it, and then the 'secret sauce' is in the speakers. If they are FRFR you will generally need to cut the bottom and top end of your guitar signal with EQ either on the PA if it has EQ or before it hits the PA with a graphic EQ pedal if you have one. It's essentially the same deal as running your guitar through a bass head and cab. The bass head will just amplify whatever you put in, and the speakers give you whatever coloration they have. You can run a bass directly into the PA head and it will work perfectly fine as long as the signal from your bass is not too hot. A DI box is a good idea for going that route unless the PA head has instrument level inputs on it.
I do this nearly all the time! Many of my pedals have dual or stereo outputs, so multiple parallel mono lines go into a 12 channel mixer, then use rack echo and reverbs for "in the room". USB to PC for recording, and a parallel totally dry signal for re-amping later, from a Behringer D.I.
Love that woodstove! A darkened room firelight jam would be commercial territory, maybe the trio with Johns favorite hand percussion, if the kit would be too much...
I'm far from capable to be doing gigs, but this was interesting, i actually didn't expect it to sound that good. You guys are very inspiring for an intermediate learner. I started watching Blacktoothfox and he's been a huge inspiration to me, i found you threw one of his vids, and you both are a shinning light of knowledge.
I can't recall the details, but I somehow ran a live restauran-type gig with bass, guitar, and (drums on a single line) through a Tascam 4-track and a headphone splitter to three sets of earpieces, and a feed to a PA. All I can say is that it worked surprisingly well because I did that for a few gigs until we no longer needed to. I have to admit that it doesn't make sense now, but I know that's all I had at my disposal to work with at the time.
Great discovery! Maybe worth trying a 'worst case scenario' at your next band practice. Try vocals, guitar and bass through the PA just incase you need to at a future gig.
Hi Dave. Not surprised it sounded ok: you mainly use clean solid state amps anyway, and IRs simply apply equalisation, so - with care - pedals sound fine direct. I've tried it with success: best to use a 10 channel equaliser to copy the frequency response of your favourite speaker (easily available on the internet), and then add some bass to emulate the cab effect.
Most impressive. I was not expecting it to sound as good as that. What would be cool to see is doing a shootout between the PAs, digital amps/IRs etc, and your amps to see how the sound differs.
I would suggest using a cab sim and a DI of some sort to attenuate your signal before it hits the PA. That's basically what I do when I'm not using an amp, or if I plug an amp direct, even if the amp has a so called "emulated output" but all of my amps with a direct out(with the exception of my Peavey Vypyr or my Fender mustang) they all suck bad! They never sound like the amp, except for my 2 modeling amps, they sound the same through the speaker, through the headphones and through the PA no matter how I hook them up...which is really reliable. But getting the sound I want from those amps, or "my sound" was time consuming. At first I was sorely disappointed with them, but once I got the aps for them and did a deep dive I was golden.
I have a smallish diy tube preamp pedal I can put in the loop of my pedalboard and switch on my reverbs built in sim as a backup, saves lugging a backup amp/cab
Dave, I would recommend to use a DI though. The Behringer DI400P passieve DI-box is a good afforable DI-Box. It's small, lightweighted an easy to take with you in your guitarcase, backpack or even attach it on your pedalboard. I believe I still see some room for it above your golden plexi.
Hello Dave, thank you for this experiment. As a poor guitar hobbyist, I've built all my pedals myself, and not having an amp, I run it through an analogue power amp which I modified its input cap to cut the base, I'm getting great tones or at least what I like. I did build a cab sim. but I like both sounds with or without. The fizz you were talking about goes away with a cab sim.
All I had was a PA for vocal, gutar, drum machine, and keyboardback in the 80's, I used an old Wem audiomaster mixer, through 2 X simms watts PA 200s and two column spaekers with 2 x15" Mckenzies in the bottome and 2 X cellestion G12" s in the top plus two horns in each I had a hondo 2 strat and a memorymoog ( couldn't play both at once ;) ) only effecta I had were an EH big muff for guitar, and a roland SRE555 which I used the mixer to asign to everything - worked fine, very limited effect wise by todays standards, but the PA could still kick arse if I still had it.
Played a restaurant gig and had to keep the volume low. Mic’d my katana head(5 in speaker) and had a good sound. The line out was too harsh, so mic’d was best. We had electric drums and bass that all went through the Same Behringer you have. Gig came out well with no volume complaints
Sounds pretty good just clean and when you had the Plexi pedal on and cut the PA bass. You should give the Behringer TM300 a try to use in this scenario. It's basically a clone of a SansAmp and sounds really good. It might give you that extra little bit of amp sound for this type of situation. Best part is those pedals are dirt cheap.
Another good day to you Sir Dave. I've done this experiment with some success but cheated technically as in the middle of my pedal board (s) lives a joyo American sound which,although intended as an amp simulator,I am really only using for tone/ gain shaping. I was thinking that if I ever got caught out by misadventure or colossal laziness I could use a spare input in the p.a . Good enough anyway,with you on the dislike of multi FX amp simulator,I used to think my unit reasonable but cannot hold up beside a real amp(Digitech unit)
I went to see Ginger Wildheart and he was running straight into a PA, using a Hudson Broadcast pre-amp pedal to do the heavy lifting. I did get the idea it was a new arrangement for him since he did have his amps and cabs set up on the side in case something went on. He had a pedal that made me think of you - the TC electronic Gravy pedal.
It is in fact a better-than-expected sound. I believe the legendary Sunn amplifiers of the olden days were intended for PA use, but they have quite a cult following these days 😎
Before I got a Amp to play I just used a cheap mixer from Amazon and had a Behringer TO800 I got as a birthday gift from a buddie and could only play with my headphones but worked surprisingly well for starting on the cheap you could use some free daw plugins and a mixer and a cheap guitar And be able to start learning for under 200€. Now I have 5 Pedals and a Mustang LT25 so I got make alot of different noises still need a pedal board have them on a Chuck of wood paneling but hey works I have my fun
I use a palmer pdi-03 out of my amp head into the DI. typically into my computer interface, but I've used it directly into a PA and as long as there are good monitors, I like it a lot. Thats how I practice. my guitar -> my pedalboard -> my amp head -> apogee symphony desktop -> either headphones or monitors. that way I can practice by playing along to youtube video. I'm thinking about trying out a fryette, because it supports the direct out, but also an attenuator when I want to use my speaker cab, but tame the volume while pushing the head to get the compression.
By Miccing up that speaker just on the bass cone you're missing out on a lot of frequencies. The highs come from the horn tweeter, this is why the sound is a bit muffled on the speaker microphone I think
It’s funny last week I was lazy at 2 gigs and I plugged directly in the PA and honestly it made the DS-2 and WH10 sound the best it ever has for my rig haha kind of funny.
I suspect all those nice pedals, while perhaps lacking defined 'amp-simulation', probably are designed with 'amp-consideration', crafted by their designers to excel in a certain range of output tonalities. The good pedals, with good settings, and a skilled player, add up to excellent output, which a good PA sends perhaps uncoloured, to our ears, quite happy ears in this case!
Interesting experiment. I don't have a PA, so I can't duplicate it, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Before I had a real, proper guitar amp(My first two guitar amps were a Fender Frontman 15G and a Roland Micro-Cube. I gave the Fender along with my extra Peavy Reactor to a friend, and I still have the Micro-Cube) I would take a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter, plug it in to a 1/8" to RCA cord, and plug it in to my home stereo input to play.
I've had my fender frontman for a few year's and it served me well, then it got abit noisy. So i got inspired by Blacktoothfox to get an orange crush 20 and for a home amp it rocks. I'm still Learning the craft and this vid was very interesting. One could say inspired.
I've briefly tried the same in the past, and my experience is not entirely disimilar to yours; Works as a means to get you through, but... not quite the real McCoy, as the Americans would say. Like you, I've never tried it with an amp simulator thrown in, though, so wouldn't know how that would change things. I'll continue to lug the Twin Reverb around for a bit, I think :)
It sounds really sweet nice sound it has that stereo sound too it.. it reminds me when I use to play my guitar out of my pilot stereo system in the 80’s 🤔 😁
@Dave Simpson Yeah, I now use my 8ch "mixing amp" (PA amp, lol) however, I cheat a bit and output that to my full stack. Guitar speakers are after all just "loudspeakers" anyways. So my pedal board thru the 8ch, also the digital drums, keys and the mics! I use an 8ch audio snake that sits by the drums so the plug ins are all central. If you think about it all the big boys mic their amps and run everything thru the Giganto speakers anyways, so... Thanks for this and for verifying that I am on the right track, lol Try one of your stacks next time instead of the PS speakers and show us the difference, if any? Also, my amp does have an RCA out on it so I have a powered Sub sitting behind my stack so if the keys or a bass wants to or Needs to, they can play thru something that has a crossover network in it, Genius eh? PS, I'm glad you didn't scrap a bit of it mate! Post PS, I use NO IRs or Cab Sims.
Not a bad sound,I always used multi effect units,so if my amp failed I still had a good backup,but I was lucky as I never needed to use the backup thank goodness.
I’m not very savvy about amps and such but I thought it sounded fine. If your amp quits during a gig and you have to use the PA, will you still be running the PA and the guitar through the PA speakers? I wonder if that might be a problem. 👍☮️🌞🎸❤️
Were you using the Zoom G2?.....Because, although it is "primitive technology" there is amp, and even cab modelling in it. And a fairly extensive EQ......of course I do not have to sell you the the glory of the Zoom G2.
Interesting video I'm sure your aware that the Zoom pedal has amp/cab emulations anyway so although it sounded good direct you'll never be without if your in the wild and have a pickle with your amp
Actually that doesn't sound to bad, playing thru a pa, I've done it, has a little more low end, but still sounds great, Nita Strauss says she plays straight into the pa thru her Boss 1000, those are small house speakers, the bigger ones with the 15" sound better, from: Scranton, Pennsylvania 👩
I've never used a pa system shit I never have even used the computer shit people be plugged into. I'm not even sure how you plug your guitar into a computer and use a plugin amp or whatever. So I don't construe alot of the fancy setting up lol I'm just used to playing through a real amp in the room. I enjoy learning everything about guitar though and this is a good experiment.
100% work with PA, even with normal hifi amp, and shity full ranger car speaker ,you better need a guitar per amp, that make it easier get right tone, turn down high and or just get a eq peadal, eq extremely useful ,back than no money buy stuffs, use everything you got, but never use for gig, home use only.
I've always believed for all the tube only people... everything is run through solid state pedals and PA. that's where most of your sound comes from now
Have to watch later , it’s past 2am 🕑, I smoke ppl in 8 ball billiard 2nite and btw I finally located that data cable from iphone to usb cable then to katana 100 , it’s in the mail now 😮… and all these new electronics (cell , iPads, etc ) , Apple 🍎 is getting rid of 9 pin adapter and going back to them small oval usb adapters. 😡 …later
Yes, it works, as everyone can hear from the video. The PA head will amplify whatever you put into it, and then the 'secret sauce' is in the speakers. If they are FRFR you will generally need to cut the bottom and top end of your guitar signal with EQ either on the PA if it has EQ or before it hits the PA with a graphic EQ pedal if you have one. It's essentially the same deal as running your guitar through a bass head and cab. The bass head will just amplify whatever you put in, and the speakers give you whatever coloration they have.
You can run a bass directly into the PA head and it will work perfectly fine as long as the signal from your bass is not too hot. A DI box is a good idea for going that route unless the PA head has instrument level inputs on it.
19:37 I love when you rip into that I Could Have Lied Budokan guitar solo. Melts me everytime.
Mad scientist Dave in full effect! Very fun video. Thanks for sharing, man!
I do this nearly all the time! Many of my pedals have dual or stereo outputs, so multiple parallel mono lines go into a 12 channel mixer, then use rack echo and reverbs for "in the room". USB to PC for recording, and a parallel totally dry signal for re-amping later, from a Behringer D.I.
The thumbnail is Amazing 🤣🤣
Good content dave, learned alot 🙏
Cheers
Love that woodstove! A darkened room firelight jam would be commercial territory,
maybe the trio with Johns favorite hand percussion, if the kit would be too much...
I'm far from capable to be doing gigs, but this was interesting, i actually didn't expect it to sound that good. You guys are very inspiring for an intermediate learner. I started watching Blacktoothfox and he's been a huge inspiration to me, i found you threw one of his vids, and you both are a shinning light of knowledge.
Didn't expect this to turn out so good! Thanks :)
I kept/used a Behringer Ultra-G D/I for years. Super cheap and has switchable cabinet emulation for going direct. Works fantastic.
I can't recall the details, but I somehow ran a live restauran-type gig with bass, guitar, and (drums on a single line) through a Tascam 4-track and a headphone splitter to three sets of earpieces, and a feed to a PA. All I can say is that it worked surprisingly well because I did that for a few gigs until we no longer needed to. I have to admit that it doesn't make sense now, but I know that's all I had at my disposal to work with at the time.
Great discovery! Maybe worth trying a 'worst case scenario' at your next band practice. Try vocals, guitar and bass through the PA just incase you need to at a future gig.
Bloody interesting video Dave. It was great that you went through the EQ changes on the PA. Food for thought - with good gravy!
Hi Dave. Not surprised it sounded ok: you mainly use clean solid state amps anyway, and IRs simply apply equalisation, so - with care - pedals sound fine direct. I've tried it with success: best to use a 10 channel equaliser to copy the frequency response of your favourite speaker (easily available on the internet), and then add some bass to emulate the cab effect.
Most impressive. I was not expecting it to sound as good as that. What would be cool to see is doing a shootout between the PAs, digital amps/IRs etc, and your amps to see how the sound differs.
I would suggest using a cab sim and a DI of some sort to attenuate your signal before it hits the PA. That's basically what I do when I'm not using an amp, or if I plug an amp direct, even if the amp has a so called "emulated output" but all of my amps with a direct out(with the exception of my Peavey Vypyr or my Fender mustang) they all suck bad! They never sound like the amp, except for my 2 modeling amps, they sound the same through the speaker, through the headphones and through the PA no matter how I hook them up...which is really reliable. But getting the sound I want from those amps, or "my sound" was time consuming. At first I was sorely disappointed with them, but once I got the aps for them and did a deep dive I was golden.
I have a smallish diy tube preamp pedal I can put in the loop of my pedalboard and switch on my reverbs built in sim as a backup, saves lugging a backup amp/cab
Dave, I would recommend to use a DI though. The Behringer DI400P passieve DI-box is a good afforable DI-Box. It's small, lightweighted an easy to take with you in your guitarcase, backpack or even attach it on your pedalboard. I believe I still see some room for it above your golden plexi.
Hello Dave, thank you for this experiment. As a poor guitar hobbyist, I've built all my pedals myself, and not having an amp, I run it through an analogue power amp which I modified its input cap to cut the base, I'm getting great tones or at least what I like. I did build a cab sim. but I like both sounds with or without. The fizz you were talking about goes away with a cab sim.
All I had was a PA for vocal, gutar, drum machine, and keyboardback in the 80's, I used an old Wem audiomaster mixer, through 2 X simms watts PA 200s and two column spaekers with 2 x15" Mckenzies in the bottome and 2 X cellestion G12" s in the top plus two horns in each I had a hondo 2 strat and a memorymoog ( couldn't play both at once ;) ) only effecta I had were an EH big muff for guitar, and a roland SRE555 which I used the mixer to asign to everything - worked fine, very limited effect wise by todays standards, but the PA could still kick arse if I still had it.
Nice sounds even on the room mic, without the PAV on.
Played a restaurant gig and had to keep the volume low. Mic’d my katana head(5 in speaker) and had a good sound. The line out was too harsh, so mic’d was best. We had electric drums and bass that all went through the Same Behringer you have. Gig came out well with no volume complaints
Sounds pretty good just clean and when you had the Plexi pedal on and cut the PA bass.
You should give the Behringer TM300 a try to use in this scenario. It's basically a clone of a SansAmp and sounds really good. It might give you that extra little bit of amp sound for this type of situation. Best part is those pedals are dirt cheap.
Another good day to you Sir Dave. I've done this experiment with some success but cheated technically as in the middle of my pedal board (s) lives a joyo American sound which,although intended as an amp simulator,I am really only using for tone/ gain shaping. I was thinking that if I ever got caught out by misadventure or colossal laziness I could use a spare input in the p.a . Good enough anyway,with you on the dislike of multi FX amp simulator,I used to think my unit reasonable but cannot hold up beside a real amp(Digitech unit)
I went to see Ginger Wildheart and he was running straight into a PA, using a Hudson Broadcast pre-amp pedal to do the heavy lifting. I did get the idea it was a new arrangement for him since he did have his amps and cabs set up on the side in case something went on.
He had a pedal that made me think of you - the TC electronic Gravy pedal.
Cool video Mr S.. this info could really help any live gig scenario!🙂
100% !
It is in fact a better-than-expected sound. I believe the legendary Sunn amplifiers of the olden days were intended for PA use, but they have quite a cult following these days 😎
Before I got a Amp to play I just used a cheap mixer from Amazon and had a Behringer TO800 I got as a birthday gift from a buddie and could only play with my headphones but worked surprisingly well for starting on the cheap you could use some free daw plugins and a mixer and a cheap guitar And be able to start learning for under 200€. Now I have 5 Pedals and a Mustang LT25 so I got make alot of different noises still need a pedal board have them on a Chuck of wood paneling but hey works I have my fun
Used to do that in my first band, everyone except drums ran through the PA!
I use a palmer pdi-03 out of my amp head into the DI. typically into my computer interface, but I've used it directly into a PA and as long as there are good monitors, I like it a lot. Thats how I practice. my guitar -> my pedalboard -> my amp head -> apogee symphony desktop -> either headphones or monitors. that way I can practice by playing along to youtube video. I'm thinking about trying out a fryette, because it supports the direct out, but also an attenuator when I want to use my speaker cab, but tame the volume while pushing the head to get the compression.
This is how I do most my gigs. I just show up and plug in and use the golden plexi for tone.
Earley in his career Leslie West played straight into PA heads (Sunnen i think) and he had an epic guitar sound.
I ordered a new fender champion 100 2×12. .I can't wait to play it...
Dave maybe use a DI BOX before PA for impedance matching.
Mine has a 1/4" Instrument jack AND an XLR for each of the 8 channels so yer covered no matter what!
By Miccing up that speaker just on the bass cone you're missing out on a lot of frequencies. The highs come from the horn tweeter, this is why the sound is a bit muffled on the speaker microphone I think
Impressing! Idk why but I liked the camera mic‘s sound better than the mixed up sound. Sounded less muffled🤔
Not a related comment, but had a vivid dream last night-the Trio were playing at Glastonbury! Watch this space 😮😊
It’s funny last week I was lazy at 2 gigs and I plugged directly in the PA and honestly it made the DS-2 and WH10 sound the best it ever has for my rig haha kind of funny.
Should work fine, btw.., like your pa speakers!😎
I suspect all those nice pedals, while perhaps lacking defined 'amp-simulation', probably are designed with 'amp-consideration', crafted by their designers to excel in a certain range of output tonalities. The good pedals, with good settings, and a skilled player, add up to excellent output, which a good PA sends perhaps uncoloured, to our ears, quite happy ears in this case!
I tried to get my Friedman BE-OD Deluxe to work in this way. Even with a real cab, it wasn't pretty. Fizz city!
I've never mic’d up a PA! PAs mic you up! 😂👏🏾
I don't read the script, script reads me :)
I run my pedalboard into the PA but use a DI (direct in) box to lower the impedance so as to not damage the mixing board.
Interesting experiment. I don't have a PA, so I can't duplicate it, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Before I had a real, proper guitar amp(My first two guitar amps were a Fender Frontman 15G and a Roland Micro-Cube. I gave the Fender along with my extra Peavy Reactor to a friend, and I still have the Micro-Cube) I would take a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter, plug it in to a 1/8" to RCA cord, and plug it in to my home stereo input to play.
Ya do what ya gotta do man, keep on rockin'!
I've had my fender frontman for a few year's and it served me well, then it got abit noisy. So i got inspired by Blacktoothfox to get an orange crush 20 and for a home amp it rocks. I'm still Learning the craft and this vid was very interesting. One could say inspired.
I've briefly tried the same in the past, and my experience is not entirely disimilar to yours; Works as a means to get you through, but... not quite the real McCoy, as the Americans would say. Like you, I've never tried it with an amp simulator thrown in, though, so wouldn't know how that would change things.
I'll continue to lug the Twin Reverb around for a bit, I think :)
It sounds really sweet nice sound it has that stereo sound too it.. it reminds me when I use to play my guitar out of my pilot stereo system in the 80’s 🤔 😁
@Dave Simpson Yeah, I now use my 8ch "mixing amp" (PA amp, lol) however, I cheat a bit and output that to my full stack. Guitar speakers are after all just "loudspeakers" anyways. So my pedal board thru the 8ch, also the digital drums, keys and the mics! I use an 8ch audio snake that sits by the drums so the plug ins are all central. If you think about it all the big boys mic their amps and run everything thru the Giganto speakers anyways, so... Thanks for this and for verifying that I am on the right track, lol Try one of your stacks next time instead of the PS speakers and show us the difference, if any? Also, my amp does have an RCA out on it so I have a powered Sub sitting behind my stack so if the keys or a bass wants to or Needs to, they can play thru something that has a crossover network in it, Genius eh? PS, I'm glad you didn't scrap a bit of it mate! Post PS, I use NO IRs or Cab Sims.
That was ace, though I always thought you needed a DI box to go into the PA. Guess not. Peace
Not a bad sound,I always used multi effect units,so if my amp failed I still had a good backup,but I was lucky as I never needed to use the backup thank goodness.
Suprise, it is so good on clean and crunch without aby cab simulation
I’m not very savvy about amps and such but I thought it sounded fine. If your amp quits during a gig and you have to use the PA, will you still be running the PA and the guitar through the PA speakers? I wonder if that might be a problem. 👍☮️🌞🎸❤️
The EHX 44 Magnum is your friend!
Run the board through your POD 2.0 set clean! Would sound glorious
Were you using the Zoom G2?.....Because, although it is "primitive technology" there is amp, and even cab modelling in it. And a fairly extensive EQ......of course I do not have to sell you the the glory of the Zoom G2.
Sounding great - what will I do with my Marshalls? Lol!
Run the PA thru the cabs and sell the amps so you can Buy More Guitars!!! lol
Sounds good to me!
Interesting video I'm sure your aware that the Zoom pedal has amp/cab emulations anyway so although it sounded good direct you'll never be without if your in the wild and have a pickle with your amp
Will we get a new pedal board video soon mr save? cheers
Yep
What are your favorite uses for the line 6 delay?
Yeah Dave, do tell us please?
A little less reverb will give you less of that lively blarry PA sound.
Are you going to do a review of Return Of The Dream Canteen?
When I have time.
The word was “ideal” lol
Actually that doesn't sound to bad, playing thru a pa, I've done it, has a little more low end, but still sounds great, Nita Strauss says she plays straight into the pa thru her Boss 1000, those are small house speakers, the bigger ones with the 15" sound better, from: Scranton, Pennsylvania 👩
It does seem to have alot of 60 cycle hum or interface of some sort... Well if anyone can set it up better it'd be super dave
I wish I had dudes governor pedal
Where’s my amp?
Somebody ate it 😂🤚🏼
Doesn’t your Zoom have some amp sims? Those might help.
Next try a PA amp through guitar cabs.
Are you insane? Oh wait, I know you are wonderfully mad! Well done Mr Dave!
I've never used a pa system shit I never have even used the computer shit people be plugged into. I'm not even sure how you plug your guitar into a computer and use a plugin amp or whatever. So I don't construe alot of the fancy setting up lol I'm just used to playing through a real amp in the room. I enjoy learning everything about guitar though and this is a good experiment.
100% work with PA, even with normal hifi amp, and shity full ranger car speaker ,you better need a guitar per amp, that make it easier get right tone, turn down high and or just get a eq peadal, eq extremely useful ,back than no money buy stuffs, use everything you got, but never use for gig, home use only.
can you set an amp on the zoom and the zoom being your 'amp'?
You can yeps.
And if this doesn't work as a back up you can always just sing the guitar parts haha
@dave Where is the WH10?
On another board.
Doesn't the Zoom have some kind of cab emulation?
It does yeps but I don’t like it.
I've always believed for all the tube only people... everything is run through solid state pedals and PA. that's where most of your sound comes from now
I love how the speakers look so ethereal, like they haven't finished spawning from whatever dimension whence they came.
I had a carvin factory hot rod 100watt tube 4×12 ..the PA 15in Traynor was better
😉😎👍❤🖖
Have to watch later , it’s past 2am 🕑, I smoke ppl in 8 ball billiard 2nite and btw I finally located that data cable from iphone to usb cable then to katana 100 , it’s in the mail now 😮… and all these new electronics (cell , iPads, etc ) , Apple 🍎 is getting rid of 9 pin adapter and going back to them small oval usb adapters. 😡 …later