Hey everybody, I recently got 1,000 subs. And that's pretty cool, as far as I'm concerned. So I just wanted to say thanks. Also, do you want to see a video about Rocky V? I didn't talk about it in this video, mostly because it's the worst thing ever. But now that I'm thinking about it, I kind of wanna talk about it? I don't know, we'll see.
Rocky 4 is anti-war. There are a lot of war metaphores. Like Drago's and Creed's wives talking, L. Drago points out it's sports, not war. Also Drago kills Creed on purpose. His manager tells him to do it. That's why he speaks gibberish instead of bad russian before the match, to keep it a secret from russian speaking audience. Drago says to Rocky "I must break you", not 'will' but 'must'. The thesis is that soldiers are victims of war. Drago is an athele made into killing machine by the system. His rebellion towards the end is him breaking the accepting his and Rockys humanity, and his possibly loss.
If Rocky is critical of capitalism, but rejects the Soviet system by going into the woods to train, does that mean that Rocky IV is Anarcho-Primitivist?
On rocky3: The thing is that "the poor have the strength of the need" is like saying "blacks good at sports and music, you know, animalistic stuff", it's a stereotype with a superficial layer of positivity but born out of a clear disgust to a diminished group of people. Also, great channel. I hope you get the chance to grow much more, you deserve it.
I wasn't even thinking about that, totally true. It also has the age old stereotype that black men are great at chasing chickens in the beach while italians suck at it. :^)
Es lo que hay I don't really get your point. Isn't the poor have the strength of the need kinda true? The same way you will run way faster with someone chasing after you, or work real hard on a test if you were told you're future diploma depended on it. I mean sure, some people can always start depressing or take another road but generally if you have a motivation you'll fight harder. And not living a shitty life is e pretty strong motivation.
Well, the main issue is that when you take out ideology and analysis, in real terms, people stuck in poberty have it really hard to go up and really easy to go down. It only takes for a store to close or a small accident, like a fracture, to cost them everything they have, because they don't have a support network. Meanwhile a big business owner can close three or four shops and stay afloat, maybe do even better. The need to succeed clasifies as a motivation, but if you say that motivation is enough to produce results you're insulting the people who are just unable to materialize it. Challenge tends to turn into frustration, anxiety or depression when you don't have the means to succeed no matter what you want or know you can do, and in a bigger time span that results in kids growing up with a different view of what a challenge is and what they can do. If for 4 generations your family just couldn't move out of the slums you're not gonna be planning how to start a small business or improve in any way, since your parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents were just crushed. tl;dr: focusing only on the existence of a potential motivation underhands how much the whole group needs the means to do something about it, so it's an insult disguised as a praise. It's not that different from sayign they are poor because they want to.
Es lo que hay it’s kind of the “suffering makes you a better person” narrative used to justify suffering. And wealth corrupts so don’t help a poor person trope.
I like to think of the Rocky series as all related in a chain, like Rocky IV is like a sequel to Rocky III, which is like what you would expect from a sequel to Rocky II which is cut from the same cloth as the first Rocky (as in you could definitely see how the characters could end up in that situation), while Rocky IV doesn't seem particularly like the first Rocky.
This might be one of the mot fascinating videos I've seen in the past few MONTHS. It's reminds me a lot of Žižek's "Pervert's Guide to Ideology". Very well-thought-out, extremely well-researched, fantastic all around! It made me re-consider the messages these movies are presenting in a new way; after I finish this comment, i'm going to re-watch Rocky I. Okay, I'll probably go to sleep, because it's 3:30 AM, but I'll re-watch Rocky first thing tomorrow. However, I do disagree slightly with your analysis of the economic messages of Rocky III. Rocky doesn't fight as well as he used to, yes, but not because he isn't economically incentivized to do so. The "rich people become complacent and stop being motivated" argument isn't listed among its flaws, in fact, it's often used by its DEFENDERS, as a way of saying that capitalism automatically replaces elites who become complacent. I think Rocky stops being able to fight like he used to because fighting has stopped being the commodity he produces, even if he doesn't realize it. The commodity he produces has instead become *the role of being a champion* in itself. That's why he does ad work, and that's why the fights are hand-picked for him. Because his sense of self-worth and reward, both internal and external/financial, have stopped coming from his fighting ability, and instead come from his ability to play the role of a good fighter. That's why the reveal of the rigged fights is so devastating to him, because it is at that point that he finally realizes the truth: he is no longer a boxer, he hasn't been for years. In addition, I think you can also read Rocky III as a commentary on the fallacy of "the self-made man". Rocky is only incredibly wealthy and successful because he got extremely lucky in the first movie. If he wasn't selected for Apollo's novelty fight, he would probably have never had much of a career. However, Rocky perceives all of his success as stemming from his grit and determination, while completely ignoring the role that luck and systemic bias played in his success. In essence, Rocky (and the movie) ignore the hundreds of other boxers who work just as hard, and are just as talented, but go nowhere. Rocky justifies the inequality between him and these other boxers through a clever bit of self-deception: he assumes that because he is on top, he MUST be somehow superior to all the people not on top. After all, he worked excruciatingly hard, so by believing that luck played the defining role in his success, he would be undermining the motivation for a large portion of his life. He constructs his sense of self-worth around this idea, and around his continued success in his career. When he's confronted with the the "rigged fights" reveal, he has an identity crisis because that myth, which he honestly believed in, of the self-made man who "pulls himself up by his bootstraps", is destroyed for him. He not only loses his worldview, but also his sense of identity and personal worth: his ability to measure himself, his value, and (in the way he describes in the first movie) his manhood.
I loved the video! Another point I thought of-kind minor-but I think in Rocky 4 there’s the line Pauli says about Rocky “getting his nose fixed up.” Small point, but in the greater scope I think it really shows Rocky’s opulence. He made his money fighting, but now that he has his money-he seeks to hide it.
Actually, you know what, after rewatching the Rocky movies after I've grown up a bit and watched more shit, and watching this, I can see the comparition of Rocky with another medium that does this "ascencion in theme and absurdity": Anime. Look at how sport manga, shounen manga that have consecutive large arcs, it's this constant one-upping itself to absurdity. If you weren't along for the ride, together with the author, you probably would point it and say: that's batshit crazy and I can't see it having any meaning whatsoever. (Granted, a lot of animanga are just filler bullshit, but there are things if you dig deep.) So I guess all urban fantasies really are the same.
Th stories change as with his ego Rocky - Humble beginnings Rocky 2 - Unprepared Wealth & fame Rocky 3 - Rise of Fame Rocky 4 - Peak of popularity and ego Rocky 5 - Hits rock bottom Rocky Balboa - Back to humble Creed - Now seasoned and wiser man Rocky is HIS story comment ist copy pasted from "Suburban Gemini". its was posted under this video about rocky which is really good too ruclips.net/video/mKTmkLvESI4/видео.html
I always internalized that statement of "Don't let me stop being a man." as in the means of handling his "business" or doing what he may perceive he has to do to take care of himself and his family even though it meant having to fight.
Rocky IV has the best fight in my opinion. Drago’s entrance into the ring is epic. “I must break you” is an iconic line. When Rocky cuts Drago i always get hype. Everything about the subsequent fight montage is great from the editing to the music. Duke fighting the Soviet corner men cracks me up. Also the effects the fight had on the Rocky after. His PTSD in V because of the brain damage. Also what the fight did to Drago in Creed II where we see he lost everything including his wife, creating deep hatred for Rocky that kept him seeking revenge. Truly a great fight!
Really enjoyed this. Hadn't even considered reading the Rocky movies from a Marxist perspective. Stallone was so obviously gung-ho about America during the 80s, I wrote off R4 as being little more than a propaganda piece. This is a really fuckin' interesting reading.
Mr. Boogaloo rocky 4 is anprim agitprop. Ricky had to abandon civilization to overcome individualist capitalism and state capitalism. Then everyone dies from dysentery.
Hey I'm new to the channel my first video was "the existential horror of Logan Paul" I really like the wide variety of topic you talk about. More ontopic I'm so very glad you did this video, I saw the first Rocky as a preteen and I loved it so much it was one of the best film ever, so good in fact that I just didn't want to see the sequel 'cause it coul... you know... break the spell, kill the magic. But two years ago when the movie Creed was coming out with all the hype I decided to sit down and watch all Rocky movies and they are really good (except Rocky Balboa I really don't like this one it seems ashamed of the other sequels) and Rocky IV is... maaaan that movie it seems to have nothing to do here but it's really fun it captures something special to me the training montage with Rocky in the Toundra versus Drogo in the lab, beast versus machine, Rocky IV isn't subtle AT ALL it doesn't need to be it's grand but after this video I do think that this movie is more subtle than I first thought. What's for sure is that while the first Rocky is the main attraction, the better movie and everything and Rocky II and III are good but not as seminal as their predecessor (and seems to kind of mix in your memory when you try to remember what scene is in Rocky II or III), Rocky IV is a punch in the guts that you remember it doesn't sound or feel like the previous movie and it has a sense of fun that makes it for me the second best Rocky film. Thank you so much for doing this video, keep it fresh and coming man!
I need to read the comments to see if anyone pointed this out but… when Ivan Drago says he fights to win, he actually says “for you! For YOU!” (Для тебя… для ТЕБЯ! - Dlya tebya… dlya tebya!)
Close, but no cigar- workers don't own the fruits of their labor under capitalism. That's actually one of Marxism's main critiques of it. For instance, a factory worker can assemble widgets all day at work and then come home widget-less, because all the widgets she made belong to the owner of the factory.
So someone who's compelled to do damage to their body in order to feed and house their family is exempt from oppression because they have ownership of the body being damaged? I argue that in Rocky two, Rocky's bodily autonomy/ownership is curtailed by a process that demands certain forms of labor from him.
Big Joel No, I think in that case the means of production would be the boxing venue itself. Rocky's losing a cut of his labor to the owner of the venue, and the... promoter? I don't know very much about boxing. A communist would probably say that Rocky having to sacrifice his health in order to house and feed his family is itself a problem of capitalism, and that the necessities of life should be provided either by the government or some other organized body, to give people the freedom to pursue their best life. (How does this all work? I don't know, I can barely organize a group outing with my friends)
Big Joel I'd look into learning about the Labor Theory of Value! At least one person on youtube has made a quick explainer on it aimed at non-leftists/economics nerds. Other missing thing might be the problem of conflating communism-in-theory with the USSR, especially in its later years.
Big Joel, Adam Smith actually had an excellent critique of Capitalism himself and indirectly acknowledges the Labor Theory of Value in his analogy of the Pin Maker. Definitely look it up for a better grasp, but I'll sum it up here: You have a pin maker who can produce 400 pins per day. Then a machine comes along which allows him to make 800 pins per day. If he owned his own means or production, the Pin Maker could make a choice. Either, he works half as many hours or he makes twice as much money. But the Pin Maker doesn't own the machine. Someone else does. The bank, or an employer. So, the pin maker produces twice as many pins, works just as long and makes the same amount. It's the owner of the machine who receives the doubled value produced by the Pin Maker. This remains true when the machine is able to make 1600 pins in the same period. Or 3200. Or 6400. The owner of the machine may ultimately earns dozens or hundreds of times as much income as the Pin Maker even though it's still the Pin Maker's labor generating the income. What Adam Smith's analogy gets at is that, on some level, Capitalism MUST inherently exploit someone. Whether it is the low-paid worker, or the machine, or even the designer and engineer of the machine, it is only the owner of the machine who will gain the lion's share of the profit. People often confuse "Capitalism" with "Trade" but they are not the same thing. Smith's Fishmonger trading with a basketmaker is not the same arrangement as the bank which owns the boat the fisherman uses to catch the fish, and the landlord who rents the stall to the Fishmonger. Capitalism is about 'Capital' and those who own and trade that Capital. Not the goods.
How do you discuss the Rocky movies and capitalism and not talk about Rocky V? The film where Rocky loses everything and has to move back into the “old neighborhood” I love your channel btw. I’ve been binge watching all day. Keep up the good work
Yeah, Rocky V brings the anxiety about capitalism full circle. Surprised it wasn't included. It would have really driven the argument home for any doubters.
I like your observations. Paying attention to the placement of the robot in context of consumerist america is interesting given that the modern age is ushering in more robots in all facets of daily life.
it was when I told this girl I knew that Rocky was a tender love story exploring the relationship between two limited people in a hearless society, and she sneered at that concept, that I knew she was an asshole :D
Just discovered your channel and am binge watching. Growing up I loved Rocky as I got into boxing and watched the series 100's of times for ,at the time, motivation to work hard. Now I feel like I can watch them multiple times all over again and appreciate them with a much different point of view. Thanks a ton and keep up the great work!!!!!
Rocky V shows us what happens after the system uses you and spits you out. Rocky goes back to being broke, and he has medical issues that he has trouble paying for. It's definitely a metaphor for manual labor as a whole.
I think Rocky 3 isn't so much about Rocky being rich; it's about him losing the actual desire to work hard to achieve something -- he had lost his motivation to train hard because he had reached the top. He wasn't motivated anymore and didn't understand his purpose. Rocky is about heart --the money and fame was just part of the scenery.
One of my favorite bits about your videos is the awkward humor at the wrap-up. I must say I learn quite a bit watching them....not sure what really but they are very entertaining and it's fun to witness someone else's mental worm holes. I can't say I've ever paid any attention to film quite the way you do. Three thumbs up....if I had a third one. : )
Straight to here from your Logan Paul video, both with vastly unexplored and original perspectives on common topics. Subbed! Can you find a way to continue this line of thought about capitalism through Rockies 5, 6 and 7? 5 seems workable, what with Rocky starting the movie by losing his possessions and his ability to do his labor.
Dear Joel. I have to invert your entire analysis of the first Rocky-movie. There's one thematic aspect of the first Rocky-movie which I'm surprised doesn't get more attention. First, let's look at context. 1970's - oil-crises and de-industrialization. For the first time in more than a generation, the American industrial working-class became deeply afraid of the future. Before that, probably 20 million tons of rolled steel would have moved through the port of Philadelphia from Pennsylvania steel-mills every year. And then along came the de-industrialization and oil-crises of the 1970's, and it all suddenly stopped. Why is Rocky working as an enforcer for a local loan-shark? All the industrial jobs are gone. Why does the guy working down in the port have to borrow money from Gazo? He's probably under-employed or precariously employed. The port is slowing down..... Why are the streets full of garbage, and why are there so many derelict buildings? So I read the first Rocky-movie as a social allegory, in part a social allegory about 1970's de-industrialization and working-class desperation and alienation. Maybe that's just because I'm an old-fashioned communist, but there it is.....
funny I had totally misremembered Rocky 1's ending. I thought he won! :D the feeling was that he won, and I actually had to google it to make sure I hadn't misheard Joel here saying Rocky hadn't won.
Another Great video. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the idea that the character Rocky is a reflection of Stalone at the time of each film's production and how the trend is continued in 5, Balboa, and especially Creed.
Hmm, you know, I'm sure that there is some connection between Stallone's psychology and the films he made. I mean, it certainly seems like he started off a young, pretty poor guy and then took off and felt insecure about his success, but statements like that are really hard to make since I don't know the guy.
The only thing I can think of as to what you mean with Creed is that Stallone lost a son in real life and maybe channelled that loss into Rocky in the film. Then again he didn't write that one (his first he didn't actually), though he did serve as a producer.
Stopping at 4 is a little strange. Sure 4 shows us that for all its flaws an alienating system is better than a totalitarian one and ends on the very optimistic idea of the possibly of something better but we end up in 5. In a very jaring opening we find Rocky stripped of his wealth by a parasitic accountant and forced to quit fighting or die. He then abandons his own family to recreate his former glory and is then forced to face death in order to destroy that creation when it is corrupted. Then Balboa shows us a Rocky that for all his experience has learned nothing. He is running a business learning to live as a retired widower but at the slightest provocation jumps back into the ring because he has to know he can still be who he was in the first film. Finally we see Creed where Rocky becomes Micky and begins the cycle over. With the addition of these films we see a narrative that is no matter what you do or where you go you will never be more than the circumstances of you birth. You might taste the good life for a moment but ultimately to survive you better know your place and occupy it. Nothing changes and no one learns anything. They do and die and at some point in the middle teach the next generation to do the same.
lol under capitalism, workers don't produce for themselves, they produce for their employers. to use a popular communist/anarchist phrase, profits are the unpaid wages of the proletariat. otherwise, entertaining video dude.
Workers volunteered to work for employers in exchange for a share of the wealth the employer owns. They are in turn given a wage worth the value of their labor. Profits aren’t the unpaid wage of a worker, as the labor theory of value is false. For example, if I poured my heart and soul into making a straw hut for thousands of hours, a mansion built in the same (or less) time would still be worth exponentially more than my hut, because labor is not a factor when determining the value of a product.
Dude, you literally just argued the Mud Pie argument which has been debunked for over a century. Value is determined by SOCIALLY NECESSARY labor time. Not any individual's subjective labor time. In other words, the value of your straw hut is partly determined by the average amount of time it takes firms to build a similar structure in the area. Likewise, the value of the mansion is partly determined by the average amount of time it takes firms to build similar mansions in the area. If an individual/firm spends more time than the socially necessary time to build either structure , he cannot charge an arbitrarily higher price for said structure if he plans on selling it to a rational actor.
The point is that under capitalism, people are free to start their own enterprises and make their own decisions about what they're willing to work for. I work and get paid and amount that I'm happy with, and I'm doing it for myself. I'm not doing it out of loyalty to my company, and I'm not especially motivated by the overall performance of the company, just as long as it isn't performing terribly. I'm motivated by me wanting to have more money, just as the company itself is.
Guy shows up, takes out a huge loan, puts up his house as collateral, spends 70-80 hours a week building a business, gets investors involved, risks everything he owns to succeed, and hires employees. Guy who stocks the shelves: "But how come you get to keep some of the money I make? I deserve ALL of it! 😢"
Wow u brought up things that I never even thought about & it's very interesting. Looking at apollo in that beautiful pool playing w/ 3 lovely dogs it's like why did u need to fight apollo u have a great life man. I get athletes missing the spotlight & the cheers in retirement but boxing is such a brutal sport I cant imagine wanting to go back to it if u dont have to. I always thought rocky really should have ended at part 3. Part 2 is a very good sequel & fits the tone of the first one which is a perfect movie. It's up there w/ the 2 godfathers as a movie that I've never heard anyone say they done like. Part 4 I always thought was crazy like rocky ends the cold war??
So, Rocky I is a classic, even if it’s a little bit cozy with capitalism. Rocky II is more critical of it, but still essentially gives the message of “But don’t worry, it’s a meritocracy!” Rocky III questions whether or not capitalism really is a meritocracy. Rocky IV asks questions about motivation and independence related to capitalism while also paying lip service to its problems. And Rocky V just doesn’t exist. It’s a shame they never made a fifth one. I wonder where they would have gone with it. I bet it would have sucked though.
I have thought that Ivan has been fighting for himself most of the film. He has just agreed to the system to get to fight the best (Rocky). That's the interpretation I made when Ivan glances at Rocky in the beginning of the fight (10:55).
The first act of Rocky 2 is amazing. It dies once Adrien goes into a pregnancy coma Rocky 4 has three montages and two fights. How did you not talk about Rocky 5 where Rocky is poor again?
Funny, I feel like a parallel video could be made about Alien 4. Like on the surface it seems so far removed from the first movie, and especially absurd that Ridley is brought back from the dead as a Ridley-alien hybrid clone (god it types even sillier than it views). But like Rocky 4, it works, and there are reasons.
Selling out is a sin, but it is a forgivable one. To write someone off for selling out is to demand of them a perfection that I don't think any of us is fully capable of. Sly was a poor schlub who relied on the kindness of friends to get him through the day, and suddenly he found success. He did a lot with it, and I can't fault him for it.
I'm glad to see a person who loves the original Rocky and isn't a Baby Boomer or Gen Z. It feels like a forgotten movie sometimes, or at least one that gets filed under "80s schlock" because of the sequels. Which is unfair, since it isn't schlock and wasn't made in the 80s.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Neva Play (feat. RM) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TpYTyAaTRts/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey everybody, I recently got 1,000 subs. And that's pretty cool, as far as I'm concerned. So I just wanted to say thanks.
Also, do you want to see a video about Rocky V? I didn't talk about it in this video, mostly because it's the worst thing ever. But now that I'm thinking about it, I kind of wanna talk about it? I don't know, we'll see.
Yep i want to see Rocky V videos
or
How about rocky balboa or Creed
(older gen vs new gen or pass the torch thing)
fight club
I like your videos.
im glad to see your channel having so much success i just discovered you but quickly you are becoming a favorite of mine
Aww haha thanks Michael
"The Cold War ended when Rocky beat Ivan Drago." - My grandpa, any time Rocky (or Communism) is mentioned.
Your grandpa was based.
@@zachgoff7796 capitalism is not based, also your use of "was" unnerves me slightly.
@@themothofchristmasfuture3892 you were a funny guy
Rocky 4 is anti-war. There are a lot of war metaphores. Like Drago's and Creed's wives talking, L. Drago points out it's sports, not war. Also Drago kills Creed on purpose. His manager tells him to do it. That's why he speaks gibberish instead of bad russian before the match, to keep it a secret from russian speaking audience. Drago says to Rocky "I must break you", not 'will' but 'must'. The thesis is that soldiers are victims of war. Drago is an athele made into killing machine by the system. His rebellion towards the end is him breaking the accepting his and Rockys humanity, and his possibly loss.
Movies can have more than one theme.
If Rocky is critical of capitalism, but rejects the Soviet system by going into the woods to train, does that mean that Rocky IV is Anarcho-Primitivist?
Shame most actual Anprims are really ancappy
I know your profile pic
It's transentential and pacifist
@@Xalimata it's a good one
No.
On rocky3: The thing is that "the poor have the strength of the need" is like saying "blacks good at sports and music, you know, animalistic stuff", it's a stereotype with a superficial layer of positivity but born out of a clear disgust to a diminished group of people.
Also, great channel. I hope you get the chance to grow much more, you deserve it.
Good point. Yea, a really big thing I didn't get at was the extent to which being poor in rocky 3 IS being black. And thank you!
I wasn't even thinking about that, totally true.
It also has the age old stereotype that black men are great at chasing chickens in the beach while italians suck at it. :^)
Es lo que hay I don't really get your point. Isn't the poor have the strength of the need kinda true? The same way you will run way faster with someone chasing after you, or work real hard on a test if you were told you're future diploma depended on it. I mean sure, some people can always start depressing or take another road but generally if you have a motivation you'll fight harder. And not living a shitty life is e pretty strong motivation.
Well, the main issue is that when you take out ideology and analysis, in real terms, people stuck in poberty have it really hard to go up and really easy to go down. It only takes for a store to close or a small accident, like a fracture, to cost them everything they have, because they don't have a support network.
Meanwhile a big business owner can close three or four shops and stay afloat, maybe do even better. The need to succeed clasifies as a motivation, but if you say that motivation is enough to produce results you're insulting the people who are just unable to materialize it. Challenge tends to turn into frustration, anxiety or depression when you don't have the means to succeed no matter what you want or know you can do, and in a bigger time span that results in kids growing up with a different view of what a challenge is and what they can do. If for 4 generations your family just couldn't move out of the slums you're not gonna be planning how to start a small business or improve in any way, since your parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents were just crushed.
tl;dr: focusing only on the existence of a potential motivation underhands how much the whole group needs the means to do something about it, so it's an insult disguised as a praise. It's not that different from sayign they are poor because they want to.
Es lo que hay it’s kind of the “suffering makes you a better person” narrative used to justify suffering. And wealth corrupts so don’t help a poor person trope.
I like to think of the Rocky series as all related in a chain, like Rocky IV is like a sequel to Rocky III, which is like what you would expect from a sequel to Rocky II which is cut from the same cloth as the first Rocky (as in you could definitely see how the characters could end up in that situation), while Rocky IV doesn't seem particularly like the first Rocky.
This might be one of the mot fascinating videos I've seen in the past few MONTHS. It's reminds me a lot of Žižek's "Pervert's Guide to Ideology". Very well-thought-out, extremely well-researched, fantastic all around! It made me re-consider the messages these movies are presenting in a new way; after I finish this comment, i'm going to re-watch Rocky I. Okay, I'll probably go to sleep, because it's 3:30 AM, but I'll re-watch Rocky first thing tomorrow.
However, I do disagree slightly with your analysis of the economic messages of Rocky III. Rocky doesn't fight as well as he used to, yes, but not because he isn't economically incentivized to do so. The "rich people become complacent and stop being motivated" argument isn't listed among its flaws, in fact, it's often used by its DEFENDERS, as a way of saying that capitalism automatically replaces elites who become complacent.
I think Rocky stops being able to fight like he used to because fighting has stopped being the commodity he produces, even if he doesn't realize it. The commodity he produces has instead become *the role of being a champion* in itself. That's why he does ad work, and that's why the fights are hand-picked for him. Because his sense of self-worth and reward, both internal and external/financial, have stopped coming from his fighting ability, and instead come from his ability to play the role of a good fighter. That's why the reveal of the rigged fights is so devastating to him, because it is at that point that he finally realizes the truth: he is no longer a boxer, he hasn't been for years.
In addition, I think you can also read Rocky III as a commentary on the fallacy of "the self-made man". Rocky is only incredibly wealthy and successful because he got extremely lucky in the first movie. If he wasn't selected for Apollo's novelty fight, he would probably have never had much of a career. However, Rocky perceives all of his success as stemming from his grit and determination, while completely ignoring the role that luck and systemic bias played in his success.
In essence, Rocky (and the movie) ignore the hundreds of other boxers who work just as hard, and are just as talented, but go nowhere. Rocky justifies the inequality between him and these other boxers through a clever bit of self-deception: he assumes that because he is on top, he MUST be somehow superior to all the people not on top. After all, he worked excruciatingly hard, so by believing that luck played the defining role in his success, he would be undermining the motivation for a large portion of his life. He constructs his sense of self-worth around this idea, and around his continued success in his career. When he's confronted with the the "rigged fights" reveal, he has an identity crisis because that myth, which he honestly believed in, of the self-made man who "pulls himself up by his bootstraps", is destroyed for him. He not only loses his worldview, but also his sense of identity and personal worth: his ability to measure himself, his value, and (in the way he describes in the first movie) his manhood.
You need more subscribers, really. Your videos have such a good quality. You will find success one day, I'm sure!
This is such a sweet comment, and really lovely to read it two years later :)
this comment aged well
I loved the video! Another point I thought of-kind minor-but I think in Rocky 4 there’s the line Pauli says about Rocky “getting his nose fixed up.” Small point, but in the greater scope I think it really shows Rocky’s opulence. He made his money fighting, but now that he has his money-he seeks to hide it.
Actually, you know what, after rewatching the Rocky movies after I've grown up a bit and watched more shit, and watching this, I can see the comparition of Rocky with another medium that does this "ascencion in theme and absurdity":
Anime.
Look at how sport manga, shounen manga that have consecutive large arcs, it's this constant one-upping itself to absurdity. If you weren't along for the ride, together with the author, you probably would point it and say: that's batshit crazy and I can't see it having any meaning whatsoever. (Granted, a lot of animanga are just filler bullshit, but there are things if you dig deep.) So I guess all urban fantasies really are the same.
Th stories change as with his ego
Rocky - Humble beginnings
Rocky 2 - Unprepared Wealth & fame
Rocky 3 - Rise of Fame
Rocky 4 - Peak of popularity and ego
Rocky 5 - Hits rock bottom
Rocky Balboa - Back to humble
Creed - Now seasoned and wiser man
Rocky is HIS story
comment ist copy pasted from "Suburban Gemini".
its was posted under this video about rocky which is really good too
ruclips.net/video/mKTmkLvESI4/видео.html
I always internalized that statement of "Don't let me stop being a man." as in the means of handling his "business" or doing what he may perceive he has to do to take care of himself and his family even though it meant having to fight.
add a short video with Rocky V, Rocky Balboa (or Rocky VI) and Creed, please :)
Case in point why I love you tube. You won’t find a cable show breaking down Rocky in to such a deep place haha
Excellent analysis -- keep up the great work man! My wife and I love your videos and have been watching them every night at dinner haha
Haha thank you, I'm happy to be adding something to you and your wife's dinner.
Rocky IV has the best fight in my opinion.
Drago’s entrance into the ring is epic. “I must break you” is an iconic line. When Rocky cuts Drago i always get hype. Everything about the subsequent fight montage is great from the editing to the music. Duke fighting the Soviet corner men cracks me up. Also the effects the fight had on the Rocky after. His PTSD in V because of the brain damage. Also what the fight did to Drago in Creed II where we see he lost everything including his wife, creating deep hatred for Rocky that kept him seeking revenge.
Truly a great fight!
Brilliant video, loved it
Really enjoyed this. Hadn't even considered reading the Rocky movies from a Marxist perspective. Stallone was so obviously gung-ho about America during the 80s, I wrote off R4 as being little more than a propaganda piece. This is a really fuckin' interesting reading.
Mr. Boogaloo rocky 4 is anprim agitprop. Ricky had to abandon civilization to overcome individualist capitalism and state capitalism. Then everyone dies from dysentery.
The robot, presumably, still lives...
Hey I'm new to the channel my first video was "the existential horror of Logan Paul" I really like the wide variety of topic you talk about. More ontopic I'm so very glad you did this video, I saw the first Rocky as a preteen and I loved it so much it was one of the best film ever, so good in fact that I just didn't want to see the sequel 'cause it coul... you know... break the spell, kill the magic.
But two years ago when the movie Creed was coming out with all the hype I decided to sit down and watch all Rocky movies and they are really good (except Rocky Balboa I really don't like this one it seems ashamed of the other sequels) and Rocky IV is... maaaan that movie it seems to have nothing to do here but it's really fun it captures something special to me the training montage with Rocky in the Toundra versus Drogo in the lab, beast versus machine, Rocky IV isn't subtle AT ALL it doesn't need to be it's grand but after this video I do think that this movie is more subtle than I first thought.
What's for sure is that while the first Rocky is the main attraction, the better movie and everything and Rocky II and III are good but not as seminal as their predecessor (and seems to kind of mix in your memory when you try to remember what scene is in Rocky II or III), Rocky IV is a punch in the guts that you remember it doesn't sound or feel like the previous movie and it has a sense of fun that makes it for me the second best Rocky film.
Thank you so much for doing this video, keep it fresh and coming man!
New favorite channel. Keep up the good work👍🏽
Rocky II makes me cry like a baby !
I need to read the comments to see if anyone pointed this out but… when Ivan Drago says he fights to win, he actually says “for you! For YOU!” (Для тебя… для ТЕБЯ! - Dlya tebya… dlya tebya!)
pleasantly surprised that Rocky's your favorite film. love this video and the thematic through-line that you found in the franchise.
Close, but no cigar- workers don't own the fruits of their labor under capitalism. That's actually one of Marxism's main critiques of it.
For instance, a factory worker can assemble widgets all day at work and then come home widget-less, because all the widgets she made belong to the owner of the factory.
So someone who's compelled to do damage to their body in order to feed and house their family is exempt from oppression because they have ownership of the body being damaged? I argue that in Rocky two, Rocky's bodily autonomy/ownership is curtailed by a process that demands certain forms of labor from him.
Big Joel No, I think in that case the means of production would be the boxing venue itself. Rocky's losing a cut of his labor to the owner of the venue, and the... promoter? I don't know very much about boxing.
A communist would probably say that Rocky having to sacrifice his health in order to house and feed his family is itself a problem of capitalism, and that the necessities of life should be provided either by the government or some other organized body, to give people the freedom to pursue their best life. (How does this all work? I don't know, I can barely organize a group outing with my friends)
Haha, I think we're in agreement here but there may be st I'm missing
Big Joel I'd look into learning about the Labor Theory of Value! At least one person on youtube has made a quick explainer on it aimed at non-leftists/economics nerds.
Other missing thing might be the problem of conflating communism-in-theory with the USSR, especially in its later years.
Big Joel, Adam Smith actually had an excellent critique of Capitalism himself and indirectly acknowledges the Labor Theory of Value in his analogy of the Pin Maker.
Definitely look it up for a better grasp, but I'll sum it up here:
You have a pin maker who can produce 400 pins per day.
Then a machine comes along which allows him to make 800 pins per day.
If he owned his own means or production, the Pin Maker could make a choice.
Either, he works half as many hours or he makes twice as much money.
But the Pin Maker doesn't own the machine. Someone else does. The bank, or an employer.
So, the pin maker produces twice as many pins, works just as long and makes the same amount.
It's the owner of the machine who receives the doubled value produced by the Pin Maker.
This remains true when the machine is able to make 1600 pins in the same period. Or 3200. Or 6400.
The owner of the machine may ultimately earns dozens or hundreds of times as much income as the Pin Maker even though it's still the Pin Maker's labor generating the income.
What Adam Smith's analogy gets at is that, on some level, Capitalism MUST inherently exploit someone.
Whether it is the low-paid worker, or the machine, or even the designer and engineer of the machine, it is only the owner of the machine who will gain the lion's share of the profit.
People often confuse "Capitalism" with "Trade" but they are not the same thing. Smith's Fishmonger trading with a basketmaker is not the same arrangement as the bank which owns the boat the fisherman uses to catch the fish, and the landlord who rents the stall to the Fishmonger. Capitalism is about 'Capital' and those who own and trade that Capital. Not the goods.
wow rocky four really said "no gods, no masters, just the ring"
How do you discuss the Rocky movies and capitalism and not talk about Rocky V?
The film where Rocky loses everything and has to move back into the “old neighborhood”
I love your channel btw. I’ve been binge watching all day. Keep up the good work
Yeah, Rocky V brings the anxiety about capitalism full circle. Surprised it wasn't included. It would have really driven the argument home for any doubters.
Silver Game Dog there’s a rocky five?!
Dylan and Owen Productions and 6
Because it's not very good
I like your observations. Paying attention to the placement of the robot in context of consumerist america is interesting given that the modern age is ushering in more robots in all facets of daily life.
it was when I told this girl I knew that Rocky was a tender love story exploring the relationship between two limited people in a hearless society, and she sneered at that concept, that I knew she was an asshole :D
Just discovered your channel and am binge watching. Growing up I loved Rocky as I got into boxing and watched the series 100's of times for ,at the time, motivation to work hard. Now I feel like I can watch them multiple times all over again and appreciate them with a much different point of view. Thanks a ton and keep up the great work!!!!!
Where do Rocky V and Balboa fit into this? How does Creed fit into it?
Rocky V shows us what happens after the system uses you and spits you out. Rocky goes back to being broke, and he has medical issues that he has trouble paying for. It's definitely a metaphor for manual labor as a whole.
@@judeforartssake Rocky seems to have found some peace and opened a restaurant in the sixth movie. Metaphor for finding success outside the system?
Big Joel, I love your interpretations! This is great. I've never seen these films, and now I'm going to watch them all.
I think Rocky 3 isn't so much about Rocky being rich; it's about him losing the actual desire to work hard to achieve something -- he had lost his motivation to train hard because he had reached the top. He wasn't motivated anymore and didn't understand his purpose. Rocky is about heart --the money and fame was just part of the scenery.
One of my favorite bits about your videos is the awkward humor at the wrap-up. I must say I learn quite a bit watching them....not sure what really but they are very entertaining and it's fun to witness someone else's mental worm holes. I can't say I've ever paid any attention to film quite the way you do. Three thumbs up....if I had a third one. : )
Almost had to save this for after work. Rocky talk gets me emotional
I always love me some Marxist readings of... well, anything.
Well said, comrad!!
Especially if I've never heard of/watched/played it and thiiiing baaad or prooooblemaaaatic.
Like I could literally watch that all day.
Same
@@daddykarlmarx6183 your username says it all
Straight to here from your Logan Paul video, both with vastly unexplored and original perspectives on common topics. Subbed!
Can you find a way to continue this line of thought about capitalism through Rockies 5, 6 and 7? 5 seems workable, what with Rocky starting the movie by losing his possessions and his ability to do his labor.
came from tye twitter thread. cant believe I passed this one. probs cuz Ive always planned on watching it first. but uhh this is too good
Dear Joel.
I have to invert your entire analysis of the first Rocky-movie.
There's one thematic aspect of the first Rocky-movie which I'm surprised doesn't get more attention.
First, let's look at context. 1970's - oil-crises and de-industrialization. For the first time in more than a generation, the American industrial working-class became deeply afraid of the future. Before that, probably 20 million tons of rolled steel would have moved through the port of Philadelphia from Pennsylvania steel-mills every year. And then along came the de-industrialization and oil-crises of the 1970's, and it all suddenly stopped.
Why is Rocky working as an enforcer for a local loan-shark?
All the industrial jobs are gone.
Why does the guy working down in the port have to borrow money from Gazo?
He's probably under-employed or precariously employed. The port is slowing down.....
Why are the streets full of garbage, and why are there so many derelict buildings?
So I read the first Rocky-movie as a social allegory, in part a social allegory about 1970's de-industrialization and working-class desperation and alienation.
Maybe that's just because I'm an old-fashioned communist, but there it is.....
funny I had totally misremembered Rocky 1's ending. I thought he won! :D the feeling was that he won, and I actually had to google it to make sure I hadn't misheard Joel here saying Rocky hadn't won.
Another Great video. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the idea that the character Rocky is a reflection of Stalone at the time of each film's production and how the trend is continued in 5, Balboa, and especially Creed.
Hmm, you know, I'm sure that there is some connection between Stallone's psychology and the films he made. I mean, it certainly seems like he started off a young, pretty poor guy and then took off and felt insecure about his success, but statements like that are really hard to make since I don't know the guy.
The only thing I can think of as to what you mean with Creed is that Stallone lost a son in real life and maybe channelled that loss into Rocky in the film. Then again he didn't write that one (his first he didn't actually), though he did serve as a producer.
Any chance we can get a video like this about the Rambo series? I have to think theres a metric-ton of stuff in those films worth looking at
I love Rocky 4. It's cheesy as hell but if you just watch it without thinking about it too much, it's a great movie.
Now I want you to do the Creed movies... because it's also an interesting look at wealth...
What’s your take on Rocky V, Rocky Balboa, Creed, and Creed 2
I love rocky the original was quite underrated and still stands as one of the greatest films ever made.
I just love Rocky IV so much :)
Stopping at 4 is a little strange. Sure 4 shows us that for all its flaws an alienating system is better than a totalitarian one and ends on the very optimistic idea of the possibly of something better but we end up in 5. In a very jaring opening we find Rocky stripped of his wealth by a parasitic accountant and forced to quit fighting or die. He then abandons his own family to recreate his former glory and is then forced to face death in order to destroy that creation when it is corrupted. Then Balboa shows us a Rocky that for all his experience has learned nothing. He is running a business learning to live as a retired widower but at the slightest provocation jumps back into the ring because he has to know he can still be who he was in the first film. Finally we see Creed where Rocky becomes Micky and begins the cycle over. With the addition of these films we see a narrative that is no matter what you do or where you go you will never be more than the circumstances of you birth. You might taste the good life for a moment but ultimately to survive you better know your place and occupy it. Nothing changes and no one learns anything. They do and die and at some point in the middle teach the next generation to do the same.
What a fantastic video that no one will ever see because it's about fucking Rocky of all things.
i thought rocky 4 was really stupid before this video, so thank you. I will watch a rocky 5 breakdown.
lol under capitalism, workers don't produce for themselves, they produce for their employers. to use a popular communist/anarchist phrase, profits are the unpaid wages of the proletariat.
otherwise, entertaining video dude.
Workers volunteered to work for employers in exchange for a share of the wealth the employer owns. They are in turn given a wage worth the value of their labor. Profits aren’t the unpaid wage of a worker, as the labor theory of value is false. For example, if I poured my heart and soul into making a straw hut for thousands of hours, a mansion built in the same (or less) time would still be worth exponentially more than my hut, because labor is not a factor when determining the value of a product.
Dude, you literally just argued the Mud Pie argument which has been debunked for over a century. Value is determined by SOCIALLY NECESSARY labor time. Not any individual's subjective labor time. In other words, the value of your straw hut is partly determined by the average amount of time it takes firms to build a similar structure in the area. Likewise, the value of the mansion is partly determined by the average amount of time it takes firms to build similar mansions in the area. If an individual/firm spends more time than the socially necessary time to build either structure , he cannot charge an arbitrarily higher price for said structure if he plans on selling it to a rational actor.
The point is that under capitalism, people are free to start their own enterprises and make their own decisions about what they're willing to work for.
I work and get paid and amount that I'm happy with, and I'm doing it for myself. I'm not doing it out of loyalty to my company, and I'm not especially motivated by the overall performance of the company, just as long as it isn't performing terribly. I'm motivated by me wanting to have more money, just as the company itself is.
Ah, like most forms of slavery, it's a completely voluntary agreement that both parties consent to and either one can terminate at any time.
Guy shows up, takes out a huge loan, puts up his house as collateral, spends 70-80 hours a week building a business, gets investors involved, risks everything he owns to succeed, and hires employees.
Guy who stocks the shelves:
"But how come you get to keep some of the money I make? I deserve ALL of it! 😢"
Wow u brought up things that I never even thought about & it's very interesting. Looking at apollo in that beautiful pool playing w/ 3 lovely dogs it's like why did u need to fight apollo u have a great life man. I get athletes missing the spotlight & the cheers in retirement but boxing is such a brutal sport I cant imagine wanting to go back to it if u dont have to. I always thought rocky really should have ended at part 3. Part 2 is a very good sequel & fits the tone of the first one which is a perfect movie. It's up there w/ the 2 godfathers as a movie that I've never heard anyone say they done like. Part 4 I always thought was crazy like rocky ends the cold war??
"recently learned i got 1000 subscribers" lmao
Between this and your Pixar video, you, good sir, have earned a sub. Cheers!
What a great video, very underrated and underwatched.
This is great analysis. People think movies like this present simple narratives
For some reason, I love that your favorite movie of all time is Rocky 1
Gotta do Rocky 5, 6 & 7 now.
That robot still feels like it’s floatin around in the periphery of our everyday lives and now I have an argument to back that up.
Best video on Rocky I have ever seen!
How about rocky 5 I didn’t think it was that bad I liked it way more than rocky 4
Great video!
I hope you do a video about Rocky V and the rest of the series someday!
Rocky IV really was a trip.
Congrats for the 1,000 subs
Gz on 1000 subscribers bud I bet your channel is going to blow up one day
So, Rocky I is a classic, even if it’s a little bit cozy with capitalism.
Rocky II is more critical of it, but still essentially gives the message of “But don’t worry, it’s a meritocracy!”
Rocky III questions whether or not capitalism really is a meritocracy.
Rocky IV asks questions about motivation and independence related to capitalism while also paying lip service to its problems.
And Rocky V just doesn’t exist. It’s a shame they never made a fifth one. I wonder where they would have gone with it. I bet it would have sucked though.
I'd love to watch a film with Joel
I have thought that Ivan has been fighting for himself most of the film. He has just agreed to the system to get to fight the best (Rocky). That's the interpretation I made when Ivan glances at Rocky in the beginning of the fight (10:55).
Hey Big Joel, have you ever considered making a video about Creed, and how it relates to the rest of the franchise?
Great video. Should do a sequel including rocky V, rocky balboa, and the creed movies.
Baby big Joel vid
The first act of Rocky 2 is amazing. It dies once Adrien goes into a pregnancy coma
Rocky 4 has three montages and two fights.
How did you not talk about Rocky 5 where Rocky is poor again?
You should do a follow-up to this with Rocky Balboa factored in and with the metastory of stallone's career
Funny, I feel like a parallel video could be made about Alien 4. Like on the surface it seems so far removed from the first movie, and especially absurd that Ridley is brought back from the dead as a Ridley-alien hybrid clone (god it types even sillier than it views). But like Rocky 4, it works, and there are reasons.
Oh, yes! I love Rocky IV. It's absurd and over-the-top in its theme and messages.
I really, REALLY wanna know how you think creed 2 fits into this lens of viewing rocky films
My name is Brain Damaged Balboa lol
GREAT video. Well done. "
If you haven't seen it, you should totally check out Muhammed Ali watching Rocky II with Roger Ebert. It's fantastic.
Congrats on 1k subs!
Thanks!
I'd really like to see a post-script about your thoughts on Creed 2 and its relationship to Rocky 4.
Fabulous essay!
Selling out is a sin, but it is a forgivable one. To write someone off for selling out is to demand of them a perfection that I don't think any of us is fully capable of. Sly was a poor schlub who relied on the kindness of friends to get him through the day, and suddenly he found success. He did a lot with it, and I can't fault him for it.
"I will work harder" - Boxer
Where does Rocky 5 fit into this? Or does it go after a different theme of the Rocky films?
Is there a reason you left out rocky V and rocky Balboa?
I'm glad to see a person who loves the original Rocky and isn't a Baby Boomer or Gen Z. It feels like a forgotten movie sometimes, or at least one that gets filed under "80s schlock" because of the sequels. Which is unfair, since it isn't schlock and wasn't made in the 80s.
This is beautiful.
special sauce
What did you think of Creed and Creed 2?
And here I am, just thinking about how nice that leather coat Rocky has would be to own. Did I miss the main point?
Big Joel. Please be our president. Anyone who disliked this video is a monster.
So when are you going to review Creed?
I don't think Mickey ever said, in Rocky I, that Rocky couldn't win. Where did you get that?
I don’t remember it either but I wouldn’t doubt it. He told him to stay down in the first one and insulted him a lot so maybe
now do the rambo series.
Realistically rocky wouldve been poisoned.
10:28
And every socialist/communist pauses the video to slide down to the comment section.
This video was great, though I do have one question: What did you think of Rocky 5?
I see similar themes in the Creed movies. You should do those too sometime :)
You've a bit more than a thousand now!