Chinese "Greatswords" are... Different. (LK Chen Sword Review)
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2022
- You may have heard of the Song Dynasty Zhanmadao ("horse chopping saber"), but probably not of its counterpart from the rival Liao Empire. This is a closer look at (and cutting tests with) two historical replicas from LK Chen, with my opinion on the handling, fit & finish, material quality, and practical performance.
These are quite unique swords, remarkably large and fitted with exceptionally long handles (somewhat reminiscent of a nagamaki). They are basically bordering on polearm territory, with imposing, powerful blades. It's easy to see why these were used as anti-cavalry weapons by infantry troops on the battlefield.
I'm definitely happy with this kind of quality for reproductions in the $350-450 USD range.
** Specifications **
- Song Zhan Ma Dao -
Overall length: 138 cm (54'')
Blade length: 83.8 cm (33'')
Blade thickness: 10.5 mm (7/16'') near guard, tapering to 4mm (3/16'') near the tip
Weight: 2.53 kg (5 lbs 9 oz)
Blade material: GB 60Si2MnA spring steel, heat treated and tempered to HRC 56-58
- Liao Dao -
Overall length: 127 cm (50'')
Blade length: 74.5 cm (29-1/3'')
Blade thickness: 9 mm (3/8'') near guard, tapering to 3.5mm (1/8'')
Weight: 2.26 kg (5 lbs)
Blade material: Same as above
** Where to get them **
www.kultofathena.com/product/...
www.kultofathena.com/product/...
lkchensword.com/song-zhan-ma-dao
lkchensword.com/twin-peaks-li...
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Развлечения
Looks like something a landsknecht would like to have. The Chineese armory is always interesting too look at since its so far removed from the weapons we see in Europe.
Fr tho, those mercs were dripped out of their fuckin mind bro
They were very far removed from well the rest of the world in weapons design even their asian contemporaries
@@jesmarkmikesell1957
And on top of that, they were some of the most feared, elite warriors Europe had to offer at the time.
I wouldn’t say “so far removed.” Keep in mind that as the centuries rolled by, both sides of the world did increasingly interact with each other. For instance, the arquebus was traded between China and various European merchants, and that weapon did find heavy use and reverse engineering to make more of it.
to be honest, Asian and European armory are mostly similar with one difference, and that is horse archers. the Chinese constantly faces nomadic tribes that uses horse archers against them, namely the Huns, Mongols, and Jurchen(Manchu), which pike formations are not really good against, so they have to make huge swords to cut down horses. also, Chinese and Japanese are two of the few predominantly agrarian civilizations that widely uses horse archers.
Chinese swords are definitely underrated in media and fantasy. Beautiful and powerful
They don't owe anything to the ones that became popular.
Only in USA and European media. In the Asian media everything is alright 😀
I guess it make perfect sense that ordinary Westerners would prefer to focus on their own history.
So much cooler than the katana and similiar weapons.
@@FeralMess even in Asian media I mostly just see the stereotypical Chinese one hand straight sword and the big blade falchions for the bad guy, or one type of spears for the military. there's not much variety tbh
I wish there was more info about the origin if these swords. The fact that the horse chopper was designed because a group lost access to horse pasture and needed to come up with anti-cavalry options is fascinating. It's a good demonstration of necessity being the mother of invention, and how specific circumstances will shape the intricacies of any item, weapons included.
Also an interesting direction to go in leu of a spear which we see everywhere as counter cav
Fortunately for the Song Zhanmadao we actually do have some details about exactly when it came into use!
"Official History of the Song Dynasty" under Chapter 150 of the Records (zhi), sub-chapter 11 of the military (bing) section:
"In the 5th year of Xining (1072), the Emperor (Shenzong) showed the (newly-designed) Zhanmadao to the Court Offical Cai Ting, who commented on its excellent workmanship and its ease of use. He thereby ordered the sword to be mass-produced in tens of thousands by the Imperial smiths to be presented to his subordinates and men. The handle's length was in excess of one (Chinese) foot, and the blade's length was in excess of 3 feet, and a ring was attached to the end of the handle."
@@Epck I think a big component of it is psychological. You see the first line of horses get their legs chopped out from under them and you aren't going to risk taking your expensive warhorses anywhere near where the guys armed with these are.
@@dlatrexswords that master sword smith probably gotten really sick and tired of eating horse meat
@@Epck They did, spear (and heavy crossbow by the name of shenbigong) was still the primary weapon against cavalry at the time. Soldiers with Zhanmadao, to my understanding, were death squad when the commander believed their formation couldnt repel the charge. They formed a line even in front of spear-wielding infantries to somehow anti-charge the cavalry and cause chaos.
It's so rare to see two handed Chinese swords in entertainment media. Yet whenever you do, they look like some of the coolest looking swords out there.
I love that you're covering Chinese blades.
I like to cover just about anything. Trying out new things is fascinating.
@@Skallagrim Hey Skallagrim, have you ever heard of the Chinese wolf brush? It’s a very unorthodox weapon.
@@Skallagrim Hopefully LK will send you the Granddaddy of East Asian Zhanmadao/Zanbato - the Tang Zhanmadao. for review.
Hopefully LK Chen sends him the Han Dynasty Sha - a swordstaff, for review.
@@Intranetusa I love the sha! Since it’s a swordspear, maybe it will help Skall summon lightning 😆
A theory about the very long handles: It's a way to bring the point of balance back towards the guard without the use of a heavy pommel. Big pommels just don't seem to be the tradition in China, most swords have a very light ring; even the twin peaks sword here has only a thin disk. Compare that to European longswords with great big wheel or ball pommels at the end of a relatively shorter handle.
That is what scholagladitoria said in a recent video.
Also a substantial unsharpened ricasso is less common in Chinese swords. Longer swords it's nice to be able to get a wide grip, without a ricasso to grip a longer handle is nice.
Also keep in mind big pommels in european swords were mostly hollow. Being a counterweight is not the intended purpose.
There may of course be exceptions here and there, and ways to use them in both ways, however generally speaking a long handle like those= a primarily two handed and weapon shorter handles = a primarily single handed weapon. Obviously very large swords have longer handles, but it can also just be because the weapon is intended to be used with a lot of power/against something with a lotta force, like a horse for example.
Great video as always Skall. A few minor additions:
1. The story of how Song lost its calvary due to losing the northern horse pastures is frequently repeated on Chinese forums but like many popular theories, it's oversimplified to the point of being totally wrong. The Song dynasty was able to maintain a sizable cavalry force during its early days, however, the mishandling of horse production policies and the gradual loss of horse-keeping knowledge means the quality and quantity of its horses kept declining. The land itself is perfectly fine for keeping horses. Zhu yuanzhang, the Hongwu Emperor of Ming Dynasty, managed to raise a very large cavalry force from the old southern territories of Song Dynasty and defeated the Mongols in several decisive cavalry engagements during his effort to unify China, and this all happened in less than 90 years after the fall of Song.
2. As to the large size of Zhan Ma Dao and other similar weapons that appeared during this period, I think it's more of a result of the fierce arms race that had been going on in China since the latter half of Tang Dynasty. The constant civil wars between warlords and nations that all had advanced metallurgy, forging knowledge, and lots of money produced some of the most heavily armored soldiers at the time. We see Chinese infantry and cavalry armors all get heavier and heavier during this period, and as a result swords, axes, maces, and halberds all get beefier and in some cases like this one: longer leverage to smack harder. This sword could of course do huge damage to the leg of a horse, but it's also handier than a shorter blade when you want to beat the shit of someone wearing 40kg of laminar armor while wearing something similar yourself. Heavy infantries who fought like this formed the backbone of Chinese battlelines during this period, and they needed weapons like this that could chop up anyone less armored and hold the line against anyone similarly equipped. If all they needed was to stop a cavalry charge long spears and strong missile weapons could do a much better job, and the Song Infantryman had plenty of those. This type of heavy infantry + heavy cavalry army was favored by all major Chinese states at the time. Until the Mongols came ...
Yes, you are correct that the Song could produce many horses. However, many dynasties such as the Song and Ming always struggled to produce enough horses to match their northern neighbors. This makes total sense if you consider the geography and populations of these respective regions. The Ming had a massive tea trade which existed for the sole purpose of procuring sufficient war horses. Additionally, in the last couple years research has come out demonstrating that pasture land in the Central Plains lacked enough selenium to produce healthy horses. I would share some links, but that is no longer allowed on youtube. I just recommend googling it to see those studies.
@@thescholar-general5975 The Ming didn't have much of an issue with horses, it did have a trade route for the flow of tea and horses but that has more to do with these being the most valuable goods in that specific region rather than a lack of good horses. Ming generals made extensive use of Mongolian auxiliaries in their armies and Ming armies often enjoyed cavalry superiority in the field. During the Japanese invasion of Korea, the Toyotomi forces noted the Ming cavalry for being highly trained, very well equipped, very aggressive, and eager to commit even without infantry support. Even the Manchus didn't think less of Ming horsemen. Through diplomacy and military conquest, the Manchus convinced many nearby Mongol clans to switch sides and serve as their cavalry auxiliary while the Manchus themselves preferred to fight as heavy dismounted infantry unless the situation demands otherwise. The war with Manchu was not a "horse archer vs infantry" type of "northern nomad wars" but more of a combined army slugfest with both sides employing cavalry, infantry, and lots and lots of guns.
Also to specifically raise and train horses for war you can't just let them graze on pastures and be done with it, Strong and endurable horses need to eat agricultural produce as well such as beans and grain. So they would have more than enough sources of selenium. Zhu Yuanzhang's entire cavalry force was recruited from the central plains and he didn't seem to have any issue with weak horses.
There's also another element: the Song no longer had control of the Great Wall so unlike the Ming, they didn't have a ready-made protective barrier that could cost their northern invaders either a lot of blood to breach, or lot of time to go around.
Basically its the good old "everyone is doing okay until those nomadic barbarian came"
A lot of people seems to have wondering about why using a sword against horses when pike formation is more effective. here's the answer: horse arhcers. Chinese has to deal with them a lot, especially since the Liao and Jin(enemy of the Song) where both recently settled down nomads, and the Mongol Yuan is right around the corner. These weapons are made for cutting down horse archers and is meant to be used both on foot(through ambush) and on horseback. Also, the Chinese(and Japanese) are one of the few settlement civilizations that regularly uses horse archers themselves.
Can you clarify? I still don't understand how a sword would be any more or less effective against horse archers. I think I'm missing something.
@@Tommy9834 mobility, a "cavalry charge"(the european cavalry tactics) will have to come to you, so you can sit there, point the pike at them, and wait for the horse to come to you. (also, European Zweihandlers are developed to bash aside/break apart pike formations)
but when dealing with mounted archers, you need to go to them, and under arrowfires, which means you have move fast and in an unpredictable manner, which means formation is a no go.
and when the fight is mobile, you tend to want as much sharp edge as possible, since you don't have time to point a sharp spear at them(especially if you are on horseback as well)which means swords, and since horse is big, you want big swords(and in Ancient China, a horse is much more valuable than a soldier)
@@holeeshi9959 okay, that makes some sense, at least if you were on horse back yourself going against a horse archer.
I'm still not sure how much it helps if you're on foot, going up against horse archers, whether you have a spear or one of these swords, but in a horse vs horse archer scenario, yea I can see why you'd want one of these.
@@Tommy9834 if you are on foot, it is usually a "use terrain to your advantage" thing, like cutting them off or ambush them, then you cut at the legs to trip them over.
@@holeeshi9959 wouldn't shield and foot archer formations still be more valuable here? I understand the idea that a chopping weapon can take a horses legs off thus imobolizing the threat but even a successful ambush is still gonna be around 15 meters out. That's a long ways to sprint before a well trained horseman can turn his mount around.
I also found that the Liao dao cuts much better than the Song dao. Also, some twin peak liao dao had a ring pommel instead of the gourd shaped flat disc.
Is it due to the blade shape alone that makes it cut better or is there more to that.
@@eagle162 I believe that blade shape is part of it. But I also think that the Song dao has enough mass that it can be difficult to accelerate while the Liao dao moves very fast.
It seems to me that the two weapons are built for different purposes: The horse chopping sword is used against heavy and armored chivalry from the north so durability is important, whereas liao dao is probably used by the chivalries and probably better against foot soldiers. Not an expert of history but this is my guess.
Hey I remember you
That's interesting, bc looking at Matt Easton's video on them it made the Song dao look much more nimble and able to cut with more velocity. That being said, I guess the mass/pob of the Liao dao would probably make it chop real good once it hits.
I like big blades, and I cannot lie! You other brothers can't deny!
When a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist, and great sword in my face I get sprung!
😂
Bro sus af
*your severed bones can not deny
That when a sword walks in with an itty bitty guard and a pommel at your saaide you get SPRUNG
😂😂😂
I like the "horse chopper" one, simply because it looks to me like it has this nice mix of functionality and brutality. Like, it looks like it would definitely get the job done, and also looks like it would hurt a lot if you got hit by it.
It won't hurt when it hits you cause you'll probably be immediately dead lol
There are a number of horse chopper swords in Asia, China and Japan specificaly, that have documented field use.
They seem to have worked quite well, used to chop the front legs of a horse off mid charge.
So yeah, they big, they brutal.
Is that the hollowslayer greatsword as your pfp?
@@dunmeroverlord It is. 😃
@@Gnomleif Nice :v
After years of watching these videos I can’t believe no one has thought to get sponsors to pay for labels on mats or bottles. I found myself wanting a Dr. Pepper after watching that bottle split in slow motion.
you should direct message skall right away about this.
盲生你发现了华点😂
there is a reason for that, when people see something associated with it being destroyed it sets off a bias against it, so seeing a label be cut in half ect could turn people off the brand,
One of the moves my Sifu showed me when learning horse cutter was a thrust where you let go with the back hand and let the forward hand slide back and catch on the pommel. This gives a few feet more thrust and the large pommel is easy to catch.
so the same thing you would do with a spear where you do a 1½-handed thrust where you slide your hand back.
I think the long handle on that giant saber would be quite useful in a tight cavalry v. cavalry situation. It's possible for horsemen to become somewhat entangled in battle and not be able to move so much, I suppose in that situation, a two-handed saber would be an advantage over the usual one-handed swords and spears most other cavalry might use.
I remember the historic record says they are mixed in pike formations, probably won't work well alone against heavy cavalry, but would be great with the help of pike
or is that pole axe? my memory on it is not that clear, both were used against heavy cavalry though
they are most useful for "butchering horse archers". pikes does really well against Cavalry charges, but against horse archers they are kind of useless, so they need really mobile units that can cut down horses and mounted archers. you run a few guys with huge swords either on horseback or as an ambush into a group of horse archers, it's going to be super effective
That would make sense only in very distant times, when it was difficult to produce sufficient number of blades.
Most effective cavalry formations generally resorted to simply having and arsenal of weapons, instead of one that would be universal.
Sweeeeeet, more Chinese stuff!
While I mainly care about European history, it's always refreshing to get good content about Chinese weapons in a market saturated with European and Japanese topics.
I've always really admired Chinese swords, in all the fighting I've done so far I've always way preferred an extra long handle which a lot of them tend to have.
The zha ma dao , the length of the Handle is what’s Important so that you can loop the under your armpit, we use it in Mizong Luohan and it’s one our oldest Taolu and also the we’re used in ww2 by lau fa meng (lau fat man - in Cantonese) if you search his name you’ll find a book about it, but it was mainly used to cut the legs off of horses.
against armor the Zhan ma dao could be turned around in order to have a bludgeoning weapon. It can easily dent armor with its powerful chops and the backside of it wouldn't sustain much damage while performing basicly just a bit worse than a mace.
Clever
It's like using the backside of a Chinese cleaver to tenderise meat
I have to assume the pommel on the Twin Peaks model looks like that because that's what it looks like on whatever artifact they referenced. The rough finish on the pommel and the hole in the middle makes me think the original sword had more decoration at some point. It would be interesting to see the smiths at LK Chen release a "complete" version of the sword.
I would suspect that it's actually the tail end of the blade itself, hammered wider after sliding on the guard. Or maybe the guard opening was narrowed after mounting.
The hole on the pommel is likely for the lanyard or tassel to tie your hand with in case you lose your grip
@@rayray6490 I have found an image in a temple that may depict a period Liao “twin peak” dao with a pommel lanyard just like you suggest.
@@rayray6490 Never heard of this from Chinese Martial Arts practitioners. They usually have a tassel to 'distract the enemy.
@@rayray6490 til chinese swords had wii controller wrist straps
Oh how I love these type of reviews and introductions to new historical weapons!! Made my day already ☺️
This in historical terms is a perfect example of "there is no best or perfect sword for every scenario". Clearly one was made to go up against heavy armoured targets (or literal horses) while the other was made for slicing through lightly armoured targets with speed. Thanks for the video, one of your best comparison videos yet. Beautiful finds and great explanation.
Hey Skall, have you done material reviews? Like the different grades of steel and metal used in melee weapons and armour of your area of expertise? I think it might be a very informational video that people would be interested in. Maybe even make a series of that and what modern materials and experimental materials you’d think would be good to replace the traditional ones.
This is a good idea
I would do it myself but I lack any funding or viewers to make it happen, and I also lack the general expertise needed.
@@devlinmcbane7255 He talks briefly about 109 high carbon steel and such but he's never gone really into detail with it, which would be a good video
Theory: The round handle, may indicate that they may have also used the side of the blade, as a flat weapon or as a defensive manor of deflection. Also, if you are riding a horse with it.. and hit something hard enough... it might be able to twist a flat handle right out of your grip. Whereas the round grip might just spin in your hand... but not be forcefully ejected.
To know the true power of these types of blades... one might get on an actual horse... and test them on various hanging targets. If you can keep your mass connection with the horse, the power and momentum, could be quite insane.
I think you got the correct idea about the round handle part. When i look at the tip of the twin blade, i found that the tip is actually double edged. So when they are against heavy armor unit, i think they would use the back side to do a piercing attack instead of slash attack.
The style of blade of the zhanmadao had been a thing since the Tang Dynasty, which had these swords that are now referred to as the 唐橫刀 tanghengdao (Tang style horizontal / straight sword). Think of the tanghengdao as a katana without the curvature, or really just a scaled down version of the zhanmadao. These swords became less useful against the better armour in the later dynasties (thanks to better forging technologies) so the solution was to make them bigger and heftier I suppose?
Just on the subject of aesthetics I do really like the geometric shape of the zhanmadao - very no-nonsense, has a weighty look to it while not being inelegant.
Love your content Skall! Don’t stop doing what you love.
Edit: I’ve been watching on and off for years, so I’ve seen the ups and downs of your channel, and you, Shad and Lindybeige really kicked off my love for historical arms and armor (beyond just firearms lol), so I just wanted to thank you and let you know that both you and your content are very much appreciated by me, and many others I’m sure. Don’t stop my guy, you’ve inspired me.
Side note: Since I got into sharpening, I found out that my grandfather (my namesake) who passed in 1972, decades before I had the chance to meet him, loved blades. In fact, my mom’s heirloom is his hunting knife, and thanks to my grandpa’s efforts, it’s still just as sharp as last day he used it. So thanks to you, I’ve found a connection to someone I’ve heard so much about but never really got to form any sort of bond with.
Sorry for the long winded comment, I just woke up and wanted to share lol.
I made a homemade version of this in 1095 and another one for a friend in O1 and the steel merchant who got me the O1 off cut, he was like "that is going to be nuts", I love it, love it love it!! This professionally designed one looks amazing.
gosh, 1095, the good old days
@@Trrip000 I dunno, after William the Bastard died I partied so hard I don't remember the 1090s.
@@Trrip000 you beat me to it, good day sir.
@@d_clarence6174🤣
@@TMTVL the 1090's, aka the OG 90's
Both look superb. Looks like you had a lot of fun with these! ... the cutting footage was poetry in motion.
First time I've seen these swords before, so thanks for shining some light on them! Great video.
(These are definitely the kind of weapons that deserve an appearance in a future Souls game too)
I recently just got my LK Chen Silver Swallow Miao Dao and it's my absolute favorite sword of all time. LK Chen rules!
I love mine haha mines due for resharpening soon lol
I love these “weapon review” / “historical background about the weapon” type videos.
Can you upload a sparring video please. Any weapon would be cool
Love your sword reviews man
Really good review ! I definitely love when you speak and show the testing moments at the same time ! Good job 👏
Chinese swords both the greatswords and the smaller ones are the most beautiful weapons for me, I like the Katana, but the LIAODAO deserved its place of popularity.
The nomadic ethnic groups in northern China, except for the Mongols, all other ethnic groups use Chinese to name their various cultures
The Liao Dao looks so damn cool, the handling must be a trip
Interesting, the "horse chopper" resembles an "orc sword" that I've seen in several fantasy depictions (and iirc Jeorg Sprave made one a while back.) It makes total sense that a concept artist wouldn't know anything about swords and not be aware of the distal taper, and just assume it's an awkward, heavy hunk of metal, not as nimble as this one is.
The Liao Dao looks amazing! Absolutely beautiful sword. I'm assuming that the pommel is based on the original, because it looks like it's missing something (even a tassel or some decoration) that should attach to it. I wonder if the rounder handle is to make it easier to let go, as I imagine hand shock from using those on horseback would be brutal.
The Song zhanmaodao is even more nimble, if you look at Matt Easton's video on it he can almost use it one handed
The zhanmaodao is also referred in a lot of japanese cultural products, it's called zanbato over there. But it's more of a concept than an actual blade.
There is a manga and anime called Rurouni Kenshi where one of the characters has a "zanbato" and it's basically Berseker's Guts sword double the size, so it's more like a very humoungous polearm closer to a beam than an actual sword. The best part is it gets sliced by the protagonist's human sized inverted katana and later is restored by putting together the 2 severed parts and inserting chains crossing them. Oh, Japan.
yeah didn't he just take a lawnmower blade add a grip and edge to it
In China, a double-edged sword is called a Jian（剑）, a single-edged sword is called a Dao（刀）, and the English word "sword" is translated as a Jian（剑） in China, while "knife" is translated as a 刀（Dao）
@fordesponja China is like France in Asia, and Japan is like Britain in Asia. Although ancient China was greater than Japan, modern Japan is better at propaganda
Been waiting for this ever since Matt Easton reviewed them :)
Thank you Skall!
China, and some other Asian countries & India, have a far more varied history of sword design than Japan. It's good that China is getting some better representation of that! I'd love to see a company make more Asian & Indian weapons as there are many awesome designs out there that most don't know of but in today's market likely would be big sellers.
You're right but Indian is also Asian
@@SetuwoKecik you are technically correct but the reason I listed them as seperate is in the US most people I've discussed it with see India as seperate from Asia. They think China, Korea, Japan, Thailand, Víetnam, etc as Asian but nothing further West.
I guess it's generally ignorance since many Indians who migrate to the US are dark skinned & don't look "Asian"?
Also I personally find India (as well places like Pakistan g others) have weapons distinct enough to list seperately from the rest of Asia.
But again you are correct & thank you.
I dated an Indian girl for a year. She insisted that most Indians don't consume India to be part of Asia and that they are not Asian. Much like how Russians don't usually consider themselves to be European. A great deal of history behind those perspectives.
@@robinmiller871 India is asia. Asia is continent. She's just being ignorant (or jusf influenced by American perception of "Asia").
Europe is just a peninsula of Asia, but for cultural reasons it's considered it's own continent. A similar thing happens to India and the rest of Asia. Often people use Asia as a synonym to the sinosphere. It's semantics.
Im a bladesmith and i cant wait to build a hybrid, ive got a concept design based on your specifications and as soon as i get my forge up and running ill be testing my design concepts
Fun review! Both of these swords are badass and on my list. In general I agree on the sheaths, I wish they were a little nicer but I'd rather have something than nothing to cover the blade, I can't be too picky at this price point.
Amazing quality video and reviews. I like the historical background you give for each.
Considering one of the LK Chen pieces for my first cutter because of your videos. Very helpful!
A hybrid as you described would be outstanding! Hopefully they listen to your suggestion because I'd definitely buy one
the zhanmadao has been my favourite sword for a while now, right next to swiss style sabers, but man
it looks like it belongs in a post apocalyptic setting in the hands of like, some warlord
like in kenshi?
@@sab9040 yeah something like that
Awesome review as always, happy to see the big ol' blades in action
Always enjoy watching you talking about historical weapons from my culture 🙂
I love the Twin Peaks. It's beautiful.
Would prefer another pommel though, I'm with you on that.
L K Chen have really established themselves in the sword space and gained a good reputation, it's nice to see Chinese historical weapons being basically singlehandedly brought out of obscurity and in terms of quality it seems like only Albion and custom makers are better regarded, quite something given the difference in price.
Personally I appreciative the value towards scholarship they are providing, Chinese popular culture has a very fantasy portrayal of their history and it's mineral culture and reliable historical sources on China in English are somewhat lacking. It's nice to see what the aesthetics of the actual historical China prior to the communists drive to destroy was.
Hmmmm... well you know
That China of older kmt/ later Mao,
Is not same as China of Today. Which take history/ relics very serious.
Like the sanxingdui Tomb recently discovered...
And yes, there is very long history of weapon mostly unknown in West
The modern communists are in something of an uneasy alliance with the nationalists yes, however they can't bring back what was destroyed and in good part they don't want to (as any honest confrontation with traditional history, cultural and philosophy would provide legitimacy to an Imperial regime rather than their one). They don't destroy historical artefacts anymore thank god but I have seen little indication that they respect the past and much that they view it as a propaganda opportunity.
Anglo tries not to discredit Chinese political achievements in 20th and 21st century challenge (Impossible) [Epic fail] {Police were called}
@@GlamStacheessnostalgialounge Those political achievements are largely cleaning up the mess Mao made.
@@vorynrosethorn903 Wrong.
I love your content. people will eventually come around man. keep up the good work my friend
Great content, loved the cutting demonstrations.
Damn, these are bad ass! I had no idea these were real! I like everything but the pummel and sheathe as well. But that is freakin sick if the Zhan Madao was really used for cleaving through calvary! Or even the other possibility of them having been skilled enough to use a 2-hander on horseback! Either 1 is beastly!
They might be used to chop at a horse's legs
since the users were dealing with cataphracts and horse archers in that era, the possibility of Zhanmadao being used as a 2 hander on horseback is pretty low
the fact the users were infantry facing off against cataphracts tho, are badass.
@@angsern8455 Well ya that’s what I meant by cleaving through calvary since he alrdy mentioned the specifics
The combat style of the Song Dynasty army was to use spears and heavy infantry as the vanguard, cavalry as the flank guards, and archers as the guards. The reason why the Song Dynasty army arranged this was because cavalry was not as good as their northern neighbors and dared not collide head-on like knights. As for the zhan ma dao, it may be the last resort and would not be used when necessary.
@JohnDoe-ug3su The cavalry of the Song Dynasty used spears and single handed swords, which were heavy two handed swords that no one would use on horseback
What a unique sword. Looks like a huge razor. I can imagine that it would be a fast sword. How would that fare against 1 v 1 warfare on foot though?
Can’t thrust or block, small hand guard, the only thing it’s got going for it is reach, which is hindered by the fact it’s a slashing weapon.
From what I gathered, watching this channel, I would say if you were not wearing armour, you will probably die as the sword wouldn't give you much to defend with. The blade also looks too wide to take advantage of any weak points of some armour. It has it's advantages against fabric and bare-skin. I may be wrong though.
@@DoctorProph3t It can thrust as it has a pointed tip, with enough weight behind it you can perform decent thrusts, it can block as its surface area is huge and is deceptively fast to parry and catch oncoming weapons. I mean did you even watch the video? Its only real downside is, probably much more expensive to maintain and to produce and is more susceptible to breakage due to the large surface area.
Someone with such a sword would probably be heavily armoured given that they were meant to jump under a horse and cut it's belly open. It might not seem good for dealing with armour but the style of sword (even if different in size and use over time) survived for a very long time, partly probably due to low cost of manufacture (it seems like a single handed version was very common in militias practically into the 20th century) and because peasant rebels and bandits were an eternal issue for the state but given the widespread usage of it and other similar weapons it may well be that their armour technology wasn't comparably to that in the west and therefore cuts retained prominence, or who knows they could have just been extremely bloody minded about innovating their swords like the Japanese were, but from what little I know there is nothing to suggest that and indeed indication that the sword was frequently a main weapon rather than a sidearm like the katana ordinarily was.
@@yammoto148 what pointed tip? The whole end is curved to the edge, there’s no tip to thrust. It’d be like trying to stab with a spoon.
Always great to see a professional and detailed sword review like this.
Comment for good vibes and for the algorithm! Been subbed for a long time now! Always some easy going and interesting content to listen or watch! Thanks for doing you, and being you :)
My favorite Chinese sword would have to be the Dadao, so I'm wondering if you'll take a look at it
I'd like to see your review of a Zombie Tools Reaper III and comparison to similar weapons such as the two swords in this video. It would be interesting if Zombie Tools intentionally, or accidentally made something with actual historical utility.
A strong swing from that horse chopper will probably cut several zombies in a group. Good weapon when being rushed from all sides.
Very handy review. I've been thinking about getting an LK Chen two handed dao and having a good side by side review is a nice reference.
Hey Skal. Thanks for the sword reviews. Those are my fav vids.
Interesting Swords! The horse chopper sword is really cool looking. An idea I had while watching the video: you demonstrated very well how nice it is to handle with two hands or with one hand right up at the guard. But the ring had me thinking: could a warrior wrap it to his wrist with a leather strap knotted on the ring-pommel and, on horseback, grab it at the pommel (or quite low on the handle) to swing at enemies close to the ground? It just feels right :-)
I made a pack of Chinese weapons for Unreal marketplace; the Zhanmadao is what I used in place for the more fantasy ultra greatsword
I haven't seen one of your videos in ages!!! I see not much has changed in terms of quality!
Great review on both of these blades, always have enjoyed your sword reviews Skall ! As simple as the Song Zhan Ma Dao is i quite like it!
Thank you for covering Chinese swords! My history is quite rusty, but if i remember correctly, these swords were basically used to literally chop the legs of horses, which were usually the only unarmoured and exposed areas. Anti-cav infantry would hide in trenches and spring into action when horses have had their charge slowed down by things like caltrops etc. These were most famously used by Yue Fei/Ngok Fei/岳飛 to hugely successful outcomes - but as with all things, he was way too successful and succumbed to politicking back at the capital. 12 times the Emperor recalled him back to the capital, each and every time he refused because he knew the frontlines couldn't hold without him. On the 12th recalled, he returned to the capital and was executed. Song dynasty was pretty much doomed at he was killed. Way to go by killing your national hero lol
Good video Skall.
appreciate all you do, thanks for another great review
The look in your eyes as your presented both to the camera within the first 15s, in my opinion, is enough to convince me of whatever I needed convincing of
I think it is worth mentioning on LK Chen reviews that all of their products are very reasonably priced. The quality / price ration on LK Chens stuff is very good.
Basically when they asked for a big sword they always received a small handle glaive
There were some large two-handed Chinese blades which had shorter handles, but these did not become as common until the ming dynasty with the influence of the nodachi. The LK Chen Imperial Changdao is a good example of this.
Idk bout y'all but having been a subscriber for close to 8 years now I gotta say I never get tired of Skalls delivery, methodology, and general feel. Always just a comfortable watching experience. Like your favorite old shirt, or baseball cap.
This was really cool to watch. Thanks for the review!
1) As a Chinese person, I very much appreciate the coverage on Chinese weaponry
2) Gotta respect the zhan ma dao for doing - exactly what it says on the tin. It's an anti-cavalry blade that'll fuck you up real good.
Bonus utility : Can be used as a paddle.
Always good to see one of your videos.
Great content. I love all the sword comparison videos.
It should be noted that similiar swords also date back to the Han empire, two thousand years ago. Such as the Zhanmajian, which was a straight double-edged sword
there are not much describe on what those looks like though, from the record I read, it's more of a mark of authority than a weapon that meant to use
@@hanliu3707 the Zhanmadao also originated during the Han, with the Zhanmajian apparently being the predecessor, this link is to an image of 5 surviving Han era two-handed Jian, the longest of which was 150 cm 4.bp.blogspot.com/-O484C4qO11I/WNTi00zt7EI/AAAAAAAADd8/FfSHo7VO8-wWqGwuAxOBv0hQk2kjA6f0gCLcB/s1600/98c000601e7354e7aeb.jpg
ZhanMaDao is definitely my go-to Zombie sword now.
Love the review content, well done. If you’re looking for ideas I have been considering the “Bastard Sword” by TFW, but I can’t find any in depth reviews.
Thanks for posting! This was quite interesting
Awesome. The "horse chopper" is very inspiring. I will bring that into my RPG world building. ;)
"Have you seen that thing? I mean, seriously, have you seen the size of it?"
I don't know why but there's something I really do like a lot about the simple, straight design of the Horse Chopper. Just beautiful in an intimidating way.
I really like these types of reviews, because I can always find a new flavour for my next character!
This was brilliant Lord Skall excellent indeed brother !
Damn that's a pretty hefty looking blade. Definitely more of a fan of the Liaodao but the Song dynasty blade has a "practically efficient" look to it.
What I noticed is that Chinese swords like these are almost glave-like
Their handle to blade ratio is greater than that of a modern katana
They are mostly calvary and anti calvary blades and having a longer handle allows more force and leverage so a glave like weapon is kinda hard to avoid when going for that kind of weapon
It was possible to make a hybrid of Katana with a Chinese Glave and get badass.
@@nokorus6035 longer handles makes sense for that context
Is there a reason for the blades not getting longer?
@@giulyanoviniciussanssilva2947 they did exactly that as another form of anti calvary
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 some did get longer (there was a larger katana like blade with a handle almost as long as the blade that I forget the name of) but larger blades means more force and usually when going anti calvary you go for the person Or the legs so a long blade really isn't necessary
Your experience and familiarity with handling swords of any origin is obvious to us all. Thx for another geat vid.
I'm so glad you finally got a horse chopper on your show. Both are so cool.
Both have many similarities with the japanese nagamaki, being a hybrid between a polearm and a sword.
Also, the hybrid he's talking about at the end would look quite like a nagamaki : Long handle and curved blade.
Nagamaki is a high quality low production blade. Zhan Ma Dao and Twin peaks are production weapons. And it's easier to produce a straight edge sword for the infantry.
I'm surprised that they didn't opt for some sort of a chisel tip just to provide a little more thrusting utility. Seems like a no brainer. No obvious down side for an easy refinement.
True but this sword's origin's date back to a rather far flung past. Plus as far as the horse chopper goes thrusting utility is superfluous to the requirements.
It's not a dueling weapon after all. Why bother adding complexity to its build when it's just as easy to carry a secondary sword for more fancy fighting.
Part of the appeal of this horse chopper is that it's so easy to mass produce in pre-modern factories while still maintaining its excellent design quality and performance. The shape and design are so "simple", but the performance is anything but basic. Adding a chisel tip might make it harder to forge. Whoever designed this series of functional, fast, powerful and cheap swords (that can probably be produced by relatively unskilled smiths) was really a master of their craft.
I suppose a big weakness of this blade - like any 2H/polearm hybrids - is that you are so screwed if you're not wearing armour - but I've read that the Tang and later Song Dynasty soldiers had access to mass produced and highly effective lamellar armours that are like European brigantine or coat of plates.
While most song dao are “slab tipped” and show almost no angle at all (just a 90 angle to the edge) there is a small subset that comes to a bit of a spatula or spearpoint. These are in the minority, and I have only seen examples in the single handed sword size.
@@Talinoth I'm sure you're right. I was thinking purely from the viewpoint of individual efficacy, not so much the historical perspective.
@@clothar23 I was thinking about it purely from the perspective of what obvious refinements would a prospective owner want.
This would be a cool weapon to see torso testing on.
Also, looking good Skall
The final comment about the trailing weight is so true. I tried welding 1" and 2" tabs onto the backside of the end of a flat bar with a bevel and it made a huge difference with edge alignment.
more sword reviews. Thats all i care about
I wonder if other Song Dynasty weapons follows the trend of a near nonexistent tip like the other one you reviewed
The dao do it seems like.
Some but not all. Even then, the Dao was gaining its modern curved shape.
Even the Polearms like the Pudao & what was later known as the Guandao were used during this time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guandao#/media/File:Weapons_(1504313613).jpg
I know it sucks right now but please keep doing what you are doing. This is some of your best content!
Great review Skall! I have the Zhan Ma Dao and I love it.
From what I have studied in Chinese swordsmanship, it isn't as common, as it is in European swordsmanship, to choke up the hands, though you absolutely could. You would typically keep the hands farther apart and use the rear hand as a lever and the front hand as the pivot point, like you demonstrated at 4:45. Stepping through with a cut, you would generally use the rear hand to pull until it becomes horizontal which you would use the front hand from letting it carry through. As a good rule of thumb, you wouldn't want the sword to drop below the waist after a cut in case you need to cut again. Once you've defeated your target you can relax it down. This makes the recovery quicker but can sacrifice on power without using the body to support the cut.
Another thought I have is that this sword seems to be a great paring with a pike square. As calvary approaches the formation, the soldiers can hack legs away as they pass exposing the, presumably armored, rider to be stabbed at by the pike troops. Or, as another user said, could be used to disrupt pike squares like the Landsknecht although it wasn't it's intended purpose.
I agree that the Liao Dao is likely cutting better due to the thinner blade. Another theory I've heard about curved sword vs. straight sword cutting is that the draw cuts on a curved sword are easier to maintain. On a straight sword, as you swing, you have to pull in to make a draw cut, like you did at 7:48, whereas the curved sword, you can just swing through, and the cutting surface will "pull" across the blade as you swing.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on anything I've said. Great video as always!
Oh god a real zanbato. (I always feel like it's easier to pronounce Japanese Kanji interpretations, too.) I didn't even know people would still know to make them, they always sounded like a weapon that only existed in stories.
The point of zhan madao looks like its purpose is to let it glide over the ground. Maybe few inches or even a foot just above the ground as the soldier rushes towards the galloping horse to kinda catch the legs of the horse.
It's hard to explain, but imagine running with an oar in your hands, with the paddle end on either side and you want to trip someone's legs with it as both you and the target rush towards opposing directions.
What I mean is that it's not meant to be swung at the horse nor its rider exactly. Rather, you'd want them to rush towards your blade and catch the horse's legs with it. The force wouldn't be enough to sever it, but it's enough to hurt the horse badly to not get back up again. The rider is forced to dismount, and the horse is rendered useless.
It's just my guess. I based it on the why the back of the blade is unnecessarily thick. That, I think it's to protect the weapon from potentially breaking after just one use when the user lets go of it due to the opposing momentum.
I could be wrong, but that's how I'd use it if I was an anti-cavalry with a weapon like that. Especially, against cavalry with armored horses.
Infantry don't need to charge since the horse provides all the momentum, and if the horse is stationary just use bows and arrows, remain stationary and ready to dodge attacks from the rider.
@@w415800 That actually makes sense. XD Thank you! Since horses cannot do quick turns, it doesn't matter if you're moving or not. Tho, I feel like this kind of weapon only works best when the enemy doesn't know it's purpose. Like, they'll only see you holding a ridiculously large sword and once they see how it actually works.. they'll have second thoughts about charging towards you. Essentially, turning enemy cavalry useless. If their general is some tyrant.. they'll be wiped out, if not, they'll be forced to retreat.
I enjoyed this video. Please keep on keepin' on.
I love these lk Chen sword reviews. Their products are all gorgeous.
Chinese weapons are seriously under represented or not really talked about. There are lots that can be taken from them, from their design philosophy to their practicality.
Can a zhanmadao actually chop a horse? Or is that just an embellished name to exaggerate how well it can chop things? Seems like a chance to get some ballistic gel and other analogues to mimic a horse’s head, legs, and body.
Yea I think that they probably didn’t actually chop horses with these in combat. You’d probably want a polearm or projectile weapons if you are facing cavalry. Not to say that they don’t chop horses as a show of skill or something like that
the idea is to combine the user strength + horse velocity at the user to chop off its feets or lop off the horse head if alligned correctly. This type of sword can be use to cut down tree(normal size tree, not big one) swiftly due to the thickness and broad head like an axe so i can imagine the blade with be a very heavy hitter
That's funny because I just ranted about the exact same thing. I doubt they used this for cutting horses when a spear would had done a much better job at a cheaper price per infantry.
Probably didn’t, I don’t remember if it was against Liao or Jin, but Song Dynasty used hook spears to ruin horse legs. But then again Song Dynasty had the first actual professional standing army of China, so shock troops like these probably went in like Landsknecht
The historical sources state that the purpose of these is to target the horses legs which would be unarmored unlike the rest of the horse.
Big sharp rectangle looks fun, very enjoyable vid.
Awesome vid man!!!