The EM2 in NATO Trials, with Jonathan Ferguson

Поделиться
HTML-код
  • Опубликовано: 23 дек 2024

Комментарии • 374

  • @mistergreene2
    @mistergreene2 4 года назад +520

    I'm really glad we get these collabs between Gun Jesus and the 12th Doctor.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +56

      My wife would sooner you'd have said '10th' but I'll settle for Capaldi ;)

    • @mistergreene2
      @mistergreene2 4 года назад +1

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries Hate it for her.

    • @jasonb6101
      @jasonb6101 4 года назад +5

      Gun Jesus 😂

    • @mistergreene2
      @mistergreene2 4 года назад +12

      @@jasonb6101 you must be new around here

    • @100lancey
      @100lancey 4 года назад

      I suspect the 13th might be an android...

  • @messmeister92
    @messmeister92 4 года назад +439

    “Keeper of Firearms and Artillery”
    What a badass job title

    • @AnthonyHandcock
      @AnthonyHandcock 4 года назад +16

      @@toki89666 Every person in the UK who is not insane or an ex-con has the right to own firearms.

    • @Cam.Klingon
      @Cam.Klingon 4 года назад +12

      @@AnthonyHandcock most people in the USA don't realize that, they seem to assume that you cannot own firearms at all...

    • @GARDENER42
      @GARDENER42 4 года назад +4

      @@Cam.Klingon I've noticed...
      Thankfully, I'm over on the West side of the Pond a couple of times a year & should be there now... :-(
      Those I spend time with are not only well versed in UK law but somewhat envious of the ease with which I have acquired several suppressors (silencers)...
      I love being in both places but despite having multiple firearms here in the UK, I miss my pistol shooting & L1A1 enough that given the chance, I'd jump ship tomorrow.

    • @michaelswords4416
      @michaelswords4416 3 года назад +2

      You can only get shotguns with a maximum load of 3 shots when it comes to pump action. You can get and AR platforms but their requirements mean they have to be bolt action and use black powder.

    • @stonksfromcs1224
      @stonksfromcs1224 3 года назад +1

      @@michaelswords4416 you can get a semi-automatic rifle but the cartridge has to be 22. i think? sorry if i’m wrong.

  • @KB-tc5sd
    @KB-tc5sd 4 года назад +178

    Can you imagine the imagery of the 1960s and 70s with the EM2 leaning out of a Huey door in Vietnam, running down a Belfast street or even a plastic furnitured EM2A1 in the Gulf

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +39

      They'd have called it L1A2, but yes, it's quite a thought.

    • @KB-tc5sd
      @KB-tc5sd 4 года назад +5

      We need a Photishop Guru!

    • @AshleyPomeroy
      @AshleyPomeroy 4 года назад +21

      It's interesting to imagine how it would have fared during the Suez Crisis - would it have coped with the sand and dust in Egypt? And later on Aden. It would probably have been handy in Malaysia. With a magnified optical scope it would have been very useful in the Falklands.

    • @dellawrence4323
      @dellawrence4323 4 года назад +7

      @kev french The provos didn't like the SLR much.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +11

      @@AshleyPomeroy The more sealed action would have made it likely better than the FAL in desert conditions, but hard to say for sure. The FAL needed a couple more years of development to become field reliable, especially in sand and dust; EM2 would have had the same development 'tail' and have ended up at least as reliable - but was more complicated and less robust longer term. Tended to double in adverse conditions/when worn, and only three gas settings (on the later guns); the FAL at least had the whole gamut to try.

  • @regimes
    @regimes 4 года назад +296

    Wish the sound quality was better during this whole series of bullpup. Normally not an issue for me but -every- video in this project (which is awesome) has me clinched to my speakers trying to hear what is being said.

    • @darransmith32
      @darransmith32 4 года назад +31

      Right click on your speaker icon in bottom right of your task bar and select PLAYBACK DEVICES. Double click on the SPEAKERS line and then select the ENHANCEMENT tab of window that pops up. And then tick LOUDNESS EQUALIZATION and click apply.
      Now every RUclips video will play back at the same volume irrespective of how they were recorded. Your PC may also have other audio enhancement features like noise/hiss reduction which you can turn on (depends on your audio driver).

    • @coryandrum
      @coryandrum 4 года назад +18

      ​@@darransmith32 Thanks! I can't believe i been just putting on headphones for those quiet videos....... If your like me and struggling to find it in W10 its "open sound settings" when right clicking the speaker icon then select "sound control panel" in "related settings". Windows 10 is basically a poorly planned scavenger hunt for settings.

    • @stefanmolnapor910
      @stefanmolnapor910 4 года назад +2

      Read Ian's Forbes interview, you will never complain again!

    • @kmd9999
      @kmd9999 4 года назад +3

      Also, the room is hideous & they ramble too much...

    • @williamflowers9435
      @williamflowers9435 4 года назад +18

      kmd9999 Thou shall not complain as Gun Jesus bestows his omnipotence upon us... he does not ramble, he enlightens 🔫 ⛪️

  • @forcea1454
    @forcea1454 4 года назад +65

    A significant worry around this time was the concept of a "broken-back" nuclear war, where the limited number of atomic bombs in the late 1940s and early 50s would cause serious damage to industrial capacity but simultaneously would not cause enough damage to prevent the war from being a protracted industrial conflict. Britain as a result had to depend on US industry to supply it's needs. This fear manifested in amongst other things, naval gun projects, with the British and American 3"/70 guns sharing the same barrels and ammunition (although the individual mountings differed considerably).

    • @richardlathrop61
      @richardlathrop61 4 года назад +7

      There is a lot of context missing from these discussions about the bigger military picture at the time regarding strategy and budgets.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +22

      @@richardlathrop61 Absolutely. I provide a lot of it in the book; there were sound reasons to push for standardisation and indeed to opt for the FAL in the end when only ammunition was standardised upon.

    • @TheRobbex
      @TheRobbex 4 года назад +2

      @@richardlathrop61 Very much so. The Berlin Airlift and Uncle Joe still in the Kremlin. Lots to consider not least British bankruptcy and Rationing in the U.K.

  • @mlpeacecraft339
    @mlpeacecraft339 4 года назад +67

    Absolutely gorgeous rifle.

    • @samobispo1527
      @samobispo1527 4 года назад

      The camera should have closed in on the rifle. Who wants to see them when their Grail gun is in the frame.

  • @scipio10000
    @scipio10000 4 года назад +74

    I had a sudden flash of alternate history, seeing myself in the national service shooting through the EM-2 the statutory 30 rounds in a year plus carrying it around in my guard corvees round the barrack's perimeter .... damn ! What a beautiful road was not taken ...

    • @able_archer01
      @able_archer01 4 года назад +2

      An EM-2 in 7.62 or 5.56 perhaps?

    • @scipio10000
      @scipio10000 4 года назад +8

      @@able_archer01 I think they did try to rechamber it in .308, but I believe that they thought ah well the USA going to the FAL, may as well get the FAL. We know how that went down ..

    • @ironwoodnf
      @ironwoodnf 4 года назад +1

      @@scipio10000 the FAL is a great rifle today, may not have been the best decision but it was a damn good one. Love my FAL and so do alot of other folks 🥰

    • @reallydontlikethem
      @reallydontlikethem 4 года назад +1

      The ammo is really heavy so the FAL didn't work out in combat roles

    • @scipio10000
      @scipio10000 4 года назад +2

      @@ironwoodnf No contest there. I shot a dutch army fal at my club. Sweet! But how cooler would have it been in .280 British 😏

  • @duanetapp1280
    @duanetapp1280 4 года назад +38

    The argument about 6 FALs to 5 EM2s makes sense, but if the EM2 was adopted then other countries would also. That's a lot of foreign currency coming in through gun and ammo sales.

    • @reallydontlikethem
      @reallydontlikethem 4 года назад +1

      They'd probably struggle to find buyers for the chief reason FN had a better design

    • @duanetapp1280
      @duanetapp1280 4 года назад +6

      Barack Hussein Obama II was the FAL better than the EM2?, Australia and New Zealand took the FAL because Britain adopted it. With the EM2 in production some countries might have brought it.

    • @andrewince8824
      @andrewince8824 4 года назад +9

      Economy of scale. Chances are once the EM-2 hit production, if it had ever had a fighting chance, the design would see improvements in production and cost reduction. For example, in 1913 a .22 rifle could set you back a whole $50. That's $1303.61 today, the cost of a decent AR-15. Now a Ruger 10/22 costs about $310, in 1913 that would be $11.89. As manufacturing methods are refined, costs diminish.
      Almost all military arms see the costs decrease once production is going and in the few cases prices go up the weapon has usually been given a good update.

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад

      @@reallydontlikethem had the EM2 won the trial, everyone in NATO would have been using it.

    • @M.M.83-U
      @M.M.83-U 4 года назад

      @@ScottKenny1978 No, exactly like with the FAL. But the Commonwealt and a few others probably Will.

  • @andrewmack191
    @andrewmack191 4 года назад +11

    Thank you for mentioning the Arrow, Jonathan. It's one of us Canadian's favourite "what-if" stories to fantasize about.

    • @rpm1796
      @rpm1796 3 года назад

      Something like an Inglis, Long Branch EM2.

  • @Locutus494
    @Locutus494 4 года назад +6

    16:42 There IS no standard issue US Army optic; there are several commonly issued optics (various Aimpoint red dots, ACOGs, EoTech holographics, etc.) but none of them are standard-issue Army wide. Different units or branches of the Army each have standardized on different optics.

  • @CAPNMAC82
    @CAPNMAC82 4 года назад +18

    Jonathan's title still sounds like something that ought o have a formal Chain of Office (even if that also required scarlet robes with ermine trim)

  • @Goatboysminion
    @Goatboysminion 4 года назад +106

    The Yanks killed it! That's what happened.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +3

      Some did. Others quite liked it :) It definitely has its pros and cons though.

    • @seanjoseph8637
      @seanjoseph8637 4 года назад +18

      And the TSR2...

    • @johnbull1986
      @johnbull1986 4 года назад +15

      I thought he said Churchill wasn't a fan and prefered the SLR?

    • @tisFrancesfault
      @tisFrancesfault 4 года назад +26

      Churchill killed it in the end.
      Churchill tended to make many many bad decisions though.

    • @krishnam1
      @krishnam1 4 года назад +20

      Another stupid decision by the perpetually drunk Winston Churchill

  • @DarthWillSmith
    @DarthWillSmith 4 года назад +12

    Admit it, you guys just like this thing because it's cool looking.
    ...Oh but it IS the coolest looking gun I've ever seen, don't get me wrong.

    • @sergarlantyrell7847
      @sergarlantyrell7847 4 года назад +3

      Well it's not just that it's cool looking but that the alternative (that the US rejected this for), the M14 was pretty awful, surviving in service just 5 years before it was largely replaced by the M16.

    • @Likexner
      @Likexner 3 года назад

      ​@@sergarlantyrell7847 I have no experience with real guns but i always liked the m14 in games. Its usually pretty practical and looks nice both in wood and in plastic.

  • @julemandenudengaver4580
    @julemandenudengaver4580 4 года назад +23

    I'll bet 5$ that we see That "Churchill" FAL in a furture episode

  • @nolanolivier6791
    @nolanolivier6791 4 года назад +37

    Wait a minute... so, they recognised that the LSW idea was inadequate to requirement, but they still fobbed us off with the L86..!?
    (sigh).... it's as if they just don't care!

    • @G1NZOU
      @G1NZOU 3 года назад +7

      I kind of like the LSW idea when it's done properly, the Russians had a good package with the RPK. Though they had the sense to also adopt a general purpose machine gun like the PK as well to keep their options open.
      At least now they're recognising that the L86 wasn't a great idea, or more accurately a really bad implementation of a fairly acceptable idea. And have brought more L7s back into service and replaced the LSW's function with the dedicated marksman with L129A1s.

  • @priestofmegatallica
    @priestofmegatallica 4 года назад +19

    Maybe Ian could convince Brownells to add these to their retro lineup

    • @Desrtfox71
      @Desrtfox71 4 года назад +3

      I'd love to see a replica EM-2!

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад +1

      It'd probably be $5500, like the SMG fg42.
      Still want one?

    • @Desrtfox71
      @Desrtfox71 4 года назад +4

      @@ScottKenny1978 quite possibly yes.

    • @GARDENER42
      @GARDENER42 4 года назад +2

      @@ScottKenny1978 Oh yes indeedy.
      Kickstarter anyone...;-)

    • @twobellz
      @twobellz 2 года назад

      Do they still even manufacture .280 British?

  • @jamietus1012
    @jamietus1012 4 года назад +45

    The American ordinance department seem to have been stuck in the past constantly about history. Is that just because those stories are the most interesting and hence show up more or was the ordinance department actually filled with people who were stuck in the past?

    • @andreww2098
      @andreww2098 4 года назад +8

      "If it was good enough for me it's good enough for you, now get off my lawn!"

    • @janwacawik7432
      @janwacawik7432 4 года назад +5

      Aye, it seems that the only things that were adopted relatively swiftly were the self contained centerfire cartridge and the standard issue semi auto.

    • @austinm.9832
      @austinm.9832 4 года назад +4

      @@janwacawik7432 and they weren't even the first, the Russians adopted the AVS-36 first.

    • @corey3606
      @corey3606 4 года назад +9

      @@andreww2098 So basically the Boomer mentality.

    • @lancesoterion435
      @lancesoterion435 4 года назад +9

      @@corey3606 pre-boomer mentality. Winston Churchill's name is mentioned several times.
      Churchill was a veteran of the Boer Wars in South Africa. Not too many boomers can claim that.

  • @Tommyg-rq6lj
    @Tommyg-rq6lj 4 года назад +3

    Automatic pistols are essentially bullpop designs since the magazine is located in the grip that is behind the trigger

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +7

      Which is why I had to come up with a working definition to exclude them...

    • @Tommyg-rq6lj
      @Tommyg-rq6lj 4 года назад +1

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries i did Not expect a response
      Thank you

    • @tisFrancesfault
      @tisFrancesfault 4 года назад

      They're technically self loading rifles too.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад

      @@Tommyg-rq6lj You're welcome! And quite right about many handguns being bullpups if the trigger and magazine, or even the trigger and breechface, are taken into account. The grip is important in distinguishing a 'true' bullpup.

  • @konstantin.v
    @konstantin.v 4 года назад +5

    15:53 It felt really weird to look at the guy pointing at an overall quite long rifle saying that there's no way to have a decent sight radius on it :^)

  • @randymagnum143
    @randymagnum143 4 года назад +8

    I'll comprimise. A bullpup M14 in .250 savage.

  • @michaelamos4651
    @michaelamos4651 4 года назад +1

    This is a truly informative video by two true experts. Thanks

  • @loupiscanis9449
    @loupiscanis9449 4 года назад +2

    Thank you , Ian .
    Thank you , Jonathan ,

  • @plunder1956
    @plunder1956 4 года назад +3

    Actually the really nice thing here, is the conversation between two experts.
    It creates a different feel to the video. Do try that again. Because it really adds something.

  • @scroggins100
    @scroggins100 4 года назад +11

    Breaks yer heart dunnit

  • @johnwiesen4440
    @johnwiesen4440 4 года назад +5

    I have put my name down for two of the books. My father saw the EM2 being tested when he was doing his natonal service.

  • @kingmobmor7656
    @kingmobmor7656 4 года назад +1

    Ever thought about visiting the armouries museum in Leeds?

  • @frankmueller2781
    @frankmueller2781 4 года назад +5

    Sounds like they forgot the old American axiom, "Happiness is a belt-fed weapon."

  • @hoegaarden033
    @hoegaarden033 3 года назад +1

    The most ambitious crossover

  • @SgtMajorJackson
    @SgtMajorJackson 4 года назад +3

    Awesome Videos! i wonder if there will be any answers to Canada's supposed love of the .280 cartridge in the Early FAL versions? Or the interest in the EM-2 trials?

    • @lancesoterion435
      @lancesoterion435 4 года назад +1

      I think the ball was dropped twice there. The .276 Pederson and the Canadian .280.

  • @USN1985dos
    @USN1985dos 4 года назад

    Hopped over to the Kickstarter page, and it looks like this is going to be another hit. Can't wait to read it!

  • @kebabsvein1
    @kebabsvein1 3 года назад

    Coming back to this after reading Jonathans book... :D

  • @Doggie_San
    @Doggie_San 4 года назад +1

    Could you do a video of the bullpup Barrett M82a2

  • @afre3398
    @afre3398 4 года назад +1

    @Ian Have you done any video talking about the history and development of the M1 Garand rifle? I know you have some M1 Garand videos like those on the sniper versions. But I would also like an in depht vide on the standard M1. I have searched but can not find it.

    • @reallydontlikethem
      @reallydontlikethem 4 года назад

      The channel is called FORGOTTEN Weapons. Who the hell "forgets" about the M1 Garand

  • @F1ghteR41
    @F1ghteR41 4 года назад +14

    Reading through Matthew Ford's PhD thesis led me to believe that Americans played British like a fiddle without any proper arguments against .280 just by using the raw inertia and corrupt nature of American war machine, and the rest - like the French connection - was just a political matter, and a pretty stupid one at that.

  • @Elimino_P
    @Elimino_P 4 года назад +10

    Why is it 9 O'clock in the Forgotten Weapon's logo?

    • @user-qf6yt3id3w
      @user-qf6yt3id3w 4 года назад +5

      It should be two minutes to midnight.
      \m/

    • @shakerson
      @shakerson 4 года назад

      Probably to make it look like half of a scope reticle.

    • @INT_MAX
      @INT_MAX 4 года назад

      It's because Ian is on the left

  • @seculartapes
    @seculartapes 4 года назад +1

    This has probably been covered on one of your videos... but why, when Britain decided to standardise on 5.56, did they not dust off the EM-2 and rechamber it rather than trying to hammer an AR-18 into a EM-2 shaped hole?

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +6

      Cost, complexity, and - for a 5.56 class round - weight. A bullpupped AR-18 should have been great.

    • @seculartapes
      @seculartapes 4 года назад

      Jonathan Ferguson I suspected that may have been the case. Thanks for the confirmation!

    • @davecarlson1918
      @davecarlson1918 4 года назад

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries I'll await the full story in the book, but didn't it go 6.2mm, then 4.85mm, then the Belgian-designed SS109/ eventual U.S. M855 62gr. 5.56mm cartridge? Meanwhile, the French adopted the M193, and then couldn't get with Nato about the SS109 change (because Belgian one wonders?)
      I will note that the L85 aka SA80 aka L85A1/ A2/ A3 pistol-grip looks like a dead ringer copy of the EM-2s, albeit in plastic! Nice little "tribute" I suppose?

    • @Kav.
      @Kav. 3 года назад

      They did take two EM-2s and convert them to 6.25mm, but SCHV is really a whole other ball game, bloke on the range has a good video on the manufacturing issues with it.

  • @brucegraham4332
    @brucegraham4332 4 года назад

    The Canadians trialed the same optic on FN FAL. It wasn't adopted on C1.

  • @chalkster4723
    @chalkster4723 4 года назад +66

    Looks & sounds like you're in a morgue again 😄

    • @TristramSavage
      @TristramSavage 4 года назад +2

      Ha, you beat me to it...lol

    •  4 года назад +1

      They are.

    • @reubensandwich9249
      @reubensandwich9249 4 года назад +4

      Obviously a pre-COVID morgue

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад +3

      Museum's conservation room.
      Really close to a morgue, but not quite the same.

    • @benzzodude
      @benzzodude 2 года назад

      In a way it is a morgue for guns

  • @matthewspencer5086
    @matthewspencer5086 4 года назад +7

    I am green with envy at all the commentators who have such exquisite hearing that they have to howl with rage every time there's a You Tube video, on whatever channel, where the sound is slightly "off." You must all have fired fewer explosive crossbow bolts than I did in my youth! With my firearm (and crossbow) -violated ears, I was able to hear and understand the considerable amount of original intelligence that this video sought to convey. I would like it if Kathryn Tickell were to invest in a better microphone, but Ian and Jonathan are not singing or playing the violin or Northumbrian Pipes here.

  • @georgerobartes2008
    @georgerobartes2008 10 месяцев назад +1

    Its not the same calibre. 7mm is not 30 calibre ( 7.62 mm ) . The 7mm Mauser bullet was used in standard jacketed lead ball and jacketed AP . The case can be found in the old 303 cartridge case as drawn but rimless , shortened and necked down to 7mm . I have used both 303 , 7-30 and 30-30 to reproduce the cases . Any 303 case producer around the world could cup and draw the basic case using existing dies without the cost of retooling. The original case being not too dissimilar to 7mm Danish that had been produced in the 1920s . The 280 Brit cartridge underwent a number of changes assisted by FN , to appease Studler ending up with a 30-06 case head size an approx increase of around 1mm in diameter from the original . European cartridge manufacturers had geared up to produce the round as it was proved as the best in trials and adopted as 7mm NATO .

  • @1982rrose
    @1982rrose 4 года назад +1

    2nd follow on book re LMG/GPMG research post WW2?

  • @joshparker3344
    @joshparker3344 4 года назад +1

    Why not develop the fg42 more? comparable in size and function and converting to 7.62 from 8mm mauser seems doable. Even the detachable scope on the fg42 seems superior.

    • @reallydontlikethem
      @reallydontlikethem 4 года назад +3

      Fragile and complicated and expensive. It never saw standard issue for a reason. Your gonna see it in the hands of paratroopers and spec ops because they can maintain the weapon. The average rifleman cannot be trusted with something like an FG-42

    • @christopherpearce2831
      @christopherpearce2831 Год назад

      The stoner weapon system was probley the nearest we are going to get

  • @nikond90ful1
    @nikond90ful1 4 года назад +1

    Thanks for the video. Interesting. Keep safe and stay well.

  • @brianwingo6472
    @brianwingo6472 4 года назад +3

    Very interesting stuff.
    I ca: not get over the feeling this was shot in a morgue and those two carts in the back are for moving bodies.
    But that's just me.

    • @markfergerson2145
      @markfergerson2145 4 года назад

      They're for the corpses of guns that might have been.

    • @davidgoodnow269
      @davidgoodnow269 4 года назад

      Close, it's actually a museum clean room for documenting, dissecting, cleaning, and restoring.

  • @robshirewood5060
    @robshirewood5060 2 года назад

    I would like to see this concept brought up to date now with the recent changes to ammunition suggested in the USA which seems to be closer to the 7mm, with new technology i could see this replacing the L85's. Wishful thinking

  • @andrewince8824
    @andrewince8824 4 года назад

    Jansen was Polish and if pre-war Polish firearm designs are anything to go on then the EM-2's crazy level of innovation isn't surprising. The cartridge was designed to balance a set of requirements borne of actual modern combat, in fact we're starting to return to a roughly 7mm projectile, slightly more powerful than 5.56mm but not as hot as 7.62 to defeat body armour. The optic while a necessity to a degree was still a very forward thinking concept. The elephant in the room is that Bullpup design, again not brand new, but it was the first time the Bullpup concept had been considered for a major combat weapon.

  • @troy9477
    @troy9477 4 года назад

    Always great historical info. I opined somewhere a few months ago that we should cook up a modern intermediate cartridge. My idea is for a 7x45mm (same length as 5.56), with a slightly larger case body. I am fairly certain you could easily push a 120 or 130 grain bullet to 2400-2500 fps at reasonable pressure with modest powder charges. It should shoot flat enough to make hits at 400 yards with an upper center mass hold. We know that 7mm bullets have good aerodynamics, and retain velocity well. It would be somewhat shorter and lighter than 7.62/308. Should have commercial appeal in a light bolt action for hunting as well (i am looking at you, Rem Model 7 and Ruger American Compact). So it is a slight improvement over the ballistics of the 7.62x39, with still a light recoil impulse, with an aerodynamic bullet. The Venezuelans had the 7x49mm in the FN49, and possibly in the FAL as well. I think a cartridge like this would go it one better with modern powders like Varget. In fact, it might even be possible to achieve it with the same case body diameter as the 5.56, which would be advantageous from a magazine standpoint. Commercially, you would be introducing a new cartridge into a crowded field, and you will probably not unseat the 6.5 Creedmoor. But it do present fascinating possibilities, as Eastwood famously said near the end of Thunderbolt & Lightfoot. Anyway, great video as always. Thank you

    • @828enigma6
      @828enigma6 4 года назад

      Wouldn't a 7X39 be doable? We've already seen some milled frame AKs with acceptable accuracy? And there's LOTS of magazines available.

    • @Kav.
      @Kav. 2 года назад

      Did Venezuela have FN49s in 7x49? I thought Vene FN49s were 7mm Mauser?
      They DID have FALs in 7x49 Liviano, there are photos of even Fidel Castro with one.

  • @ALRinaldi
    @ALRinaldi 4 года назад +4

    Does Cody have an EM-2 or did Jonathan bring it in for the conference?

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +10

      Cody have it. It's an X2E1 variant, serial number EN103 :)

    • @paulgray5513
      @paulgray5513 4 года назад +1

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries I think their is a video on youtube of it being fired, the recoil in 308 is something else when you compare it to Ian's 280 video at Shrivenham. Would it have done well as a military rifle in 7.62x51 I am not sure. I fear we probably would have ended up with an early sa80 a1 on our hands, coupled with similar quotes to those about the mars pistols lol. Congratulations on the book i look forward to reading it.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +1

      @@paulgray5513 Eminently possible. It was as good as the FAL on paper, but reality is not paper :) We wouldn't have had the same build quality/QC issues as SA80, and possibly not the same level of cost cutting. But still, it's not the wunderwaffen people sometimes think. Better than some think, worse than others :)

    • @paulgray5513
      @paulgray5513 4 года назад +1

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries Thank you for your reply. Much as you said the TSR2 and the EM2 looked so far ahead of their time that we do tend to look them with rose tinted glasses. It would have been interesting to see how the EM2 developed. But perhaps the greater loss was the 280 british cartridge, especially as the americans are now testing the 6.8spc which is very similar to the 280 in their new assault rifle. Chance are they will not go down that route but it does beg the question, what might have happened had Eugene Stoner produced the AR10 in 280 would 5.56 have ever existed? Curtis LeMays birthday party might have yielded a very different proposition.
      Perhaps brownells could be persuaded to make one of their AR10 copies in 280 for a new trial? unfortunately only for our friends across the pond to enjoy.

    • @thomasstevenhebert
      @thomasstevenhebert 4 года назад

      @@paulgray5513 just a point of order the 6.8 rounds currently being tested have nothing to do with 6.8 spc. Its a heavier bullet, completely different case design and performance.

  • @MrJamesjustin
    @MrJamesjustin 4 года назад +5

    Excellent episode as usual. How the hell do you get a job like that? So envious.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +11

      A lot of work and perseverance, and about the same amount of luck :)

    • @MrJamesjustin
      @MrJamesjustin 4 года назад +8

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries well from listening to you, I think there's significantly less luck than your modesty claims. More power to you sir.

  • @wayneorellana2549
    @wayneorellana2549 4 года назад +2

    When "What might of been" is actually smarter and better thought out than what was. If the EM2 was adopted we would never have seen the 7.62 or 5.56 standard issue rifles, possibly to this day.

    • @wayneorellana2549
      @wayneorellana2549 4 года назад +3

      An FAL in 280 would be a beautiful rifle to shoot.

    • @neilmorrison7356
      @neilmorrison7356 4 года назад +2

      If Studler had not been an old woman about the cartridge a 280 FAL could well have won out for everyone bar the USA once Churchill got involved.

    • @wayneorellana2549
      @wayneorellana2549 4 года назад

      @morton christie I do believe that you are correct.

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад +1

      @Craig Koehler you know that most of the world doesn't speak English as their first language, right?
      I still think that the .280 is a little heavy for an intermediate cartridge, so I suspect that there would have been a lighter caliber at some point in time. But certainly not in the 1960s like the AR 15.

    • @samuelbishop3316
      @samuelbishop3316 2 года назад

      Only issue with the EM2 was how complex and manufacturing because of that. Not a bad rifle, at all but it's also worth mentioning that the 280 fal won out for accuracy tests overall
      Either would have been a better option

  • @bivibuddydan
    @bivibuddydan 4 года назад +1

    This time the sound is very poor. I can't hear exactly whats being said. Did you change the mic position?

  • @markvick6138
    @markvick6138 4 года назад +1

    ian could the em2 be put into service today ? if no why ?

    • @828enigma6
      @828enigma6 4 года назад

      "Wrong cartridge". And at a time our military is keenly interested in adopting a new universal military round, they surely wouldn't be interested. Even if round and rifle were far superior to what is proposed.

  • @oblio7732
    @oblio7732 4 года назад

    Ian! Any chance of putting your hands on a Groza?

  • @SafetyProMalta
    @SafetyProMalta 4 года назад

    Ian also covered the Garand debacle with the US general in charge of ordnance sticking his nose in for changing it's original designed .276 Pedersen cartridge to 30-06.

    • @sanguinemoon9201
      @sanguinemoon9201 4 года назад +1

      Ordinance has been the bane of the US soldier's existence for many decades.

    • @davecarlson1918
      @davecarlson1918 4 года назад +2

      That was not Ordnance. That was Douglas MacArthur. Lots and lots of .30-06 ammo in reserve, MGs in .30-06, and U.S. ammunition plants not being set up for the .276 Pedersen played the role in that decision. I think Ordnance at the time was interested in Pedersen's .276 cartridge in a 10-shot version of Garand's rifle... Too bad all of those people must have retired by the time of the Nato trials, eh?

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад

      @@davecarlson1918 the .276 Pedersen was actually more powerful than the .280 British as originally designed. It's effectively 7mm-08.

  • @lesgl
    @lesgl 3 года назад

    Are there any prototype Taden machine guns still in existence???

    • @Kav.
      @Kav. 2 года назад

      Yes

  • @ZacLowing
    @ZacLowing 4 года назад

    So... which one would have been better?

  • @laxityazathoth1423
    @laxityazathoth1423 4 года назад +1

    Strange you talk about volume of fire as a detriment of box fed section support weapons but then they excrete the L86

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +2

      Yes, and look how well that turned out ;)

    • @tisFrancesfault
      @tisFrancesfault 4 года назад

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries tbf, many are ok with box fed mgs, because everyone can pack an extra mag or two if they need to (except on exercise because effort). Belts are better but you're not easily persuading someone to do so as it's really inconvenient.

    • @uhavedied12334557
      @uhavedied12334557 4 года назад +1

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries isn't the L86 LSW being pushed into more of a DM role than a 'machine gun' ?

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +1

      @@uhavedied12334557 It's been used in that role on and off over the years since the Minimi (LMG) was procured and the GPMG came back into the Section. It's since been withdrawn from the Section entirely and is not subject to the A3 upgrade programme.

    • @laxityazathoth1423
      @laxityazathoth1423 4 года назад +2

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries the crow cannon gone?!? I'd say I was sorry to hear that but having lumped that sodding thing about I can't say that I'm shedding to many tears

  • @squigs8070
    @squigs8070 4 года назад +1

    Me:opens gun video
    Video: 19 minutes and 11 seconds long
    Me: nice

  • @jeremynorthrop8287
    @jeremynorthrop8287 4 года назад +1

    If the circumstances and Churchill hadn’t killed it, would an EM-2 in 7.62 NATO have been a practical endeavor? Obviously a lot of the controllable full auto aspect would be gone, but most of the other advantages it held over the M14 and FAL would remain.

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +3

      Oh, very practical. I'm fortunate enough to have fired it, and it's soft-shooting for a 7.62. A lot of developmental work went into the X2E1, which is the 7.62 NATO EM2 variant. The trouble is that the only advantage it really has over FAL (I'll ignore M14!) is its compactness. And that wasn't worth the cost and risk factor of going it alone... Perfection being the enemy of 'good enough', and EM2 being far from perfect either.

    • @reallydontlikethem
      @reallydontlikethem 4 года назад

      This isn't a very good take. The gun wasn't adopted because the interchanability with the allies and supply chains was smarter to pursuit than reducing individual troop loadout weight

    • @TexasSpectre
      @TexasSpectre 4 года назад

      ​@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries​ And the FN later reduced the compactness advantage the X2E1 had over the FAL by introducing the "Para" FAL carbines, 50.61-50.64, though as I'm sure you know the Commonwealth never adopted them.
      I have read that the X2E1 was significantly larger and heavier than the original EM2 - is this the case?

  • @TrinidadJamesWoods
    @TrinidadJamesWoods 4 года назад

    That's a really nice looking example of the EM2.

  • @fruhotchiliman
    @fruhotchiliman 4 года назад

    Can you please review the Heavy Gustav for us?!

  • @jrgordon47
    @jrgordon47 4 года назад

    From my second lesson about and with firearms...I've enjoyed the intro info as to the "Why" of a firearm, short course...That being said it's the "How" that I lock into. Your Masterful in that aspect Ian...Even when you fumble a tare down section, it's a real move, that will usually happen In the real world...That's what I look for...I'll watch again, at a later time, if I want the tech...

  • @bgezal
    @bgezal 4 года назад

    Thumbnail: video length 19:11
    Me: nice
    RUclips starting the video: length 19:10

  • @letsplaybarrysmod5815
    @letsplaybarrysmod5815 4 года назад

    I like these types of videos

  • @tisFrancesfault
    @tisFrancesfault 4 года назад +4

    Churchill strikes again, I see!
    And now we don't have them for purchasing as surplus or new :( .
    I'd have loved to see how it grew over the years of service.

    • @titytitmk2738
      @titytitmk2738 4 года назад +2

      Not really Churchills fault. Churchill had the EM-2 dropped on a promise from the US that all NATO members would use the same service rifle, which is why the UK, Canada, Belgium etc (pretty much all countries that were eyeing the EM-2 as their next service rifle) went with the FAL.
      Then the US went 'lol nah' and adopted the M14. Which pissed on Churchill and pretty much everyone else in NATO.
      Everyone got pissed off again when the US adopted the 5.56 NATO round and the M16 4-5 years later.
      EDIT: Churchill may have favoured the FAL, but he still signed off on the EM-2 as a service rifle as it WAS actually adopted as the Enfield Rifle No.9 SLR so he likely saw the benefits of the EM-2 as well as personally really liked the FAL.

    • @tisFrancesfault
      @tisFrancesfault 4 года назад

      @toeff7852 I sense some rather undue hostility.
      The reason I mentioned surplus is because I would love to own one that's all. The same way I'd love a FAMAS or many other arms. I don't see how desiring to own a copy of an, in all probability would have been an excellent rifle is an issue.
      I just think the UK, could have continued down a really interesting development with it, and maintained an innovative arms industry (maybe).
      Oh and Churchill wasn't a war leader really at this point. ... because the war ended years prior.

    • @tisFrancesfault
      @tisFrancesfault 4 года назад +1

      @@titytitmk2738 yeah, but it's actually easy to blame Churchill because he often had terrible, terrible ideas. Though he was silly to think that the US - UK relationship was the same after FDR died.
      Tbh, it really was an issue with the ammo. With the States playing hardball, the em 2 wasn't going to survive, tragically.

  • @johnsabini3351
    @johnsabini3351 3 года назад

    Top Notch Video.

  • @brucebaxter6923
    @brucebaxter6923 4 года назад +4

    tsr2 and avro arrow were ended by lendlease being called in if the politicians didnt drop them.

    • @RedXlV
      @RedXlV 4 года назад

      I don't think Diefenbaker needed any help from the US to come to that decision. He clearly despised the Arrow.

    • @davecarlson1918
      @davecarlson1918 4 года назад

      The influx of Lend Lease equipment and resources allowed British industry to zero in on what was viewed as a "war winning" industrial enterprise... Namely, the construction and crewing of a vast fleet of Avro Lancaster four engined bombers, which since the 1930s had been touted as capable of dealing a "knockout blow" and, of course, the self-defending bomber "would always get through." Well, first, the self-defending bomber didn't "get through." Second, the only thing that the bombers could reliably hit was something really, really big. Not a munitions factory or ball bearing plant or synthetic fuel plant... But a city. A big city. And even though bombing would avoid the pointless mass slaughter of trench warfare, well, some British RAF bomber regiments had 40 percent fatalities. Not casualties. Fatalities. Casualty rates could be up 60 percent! So, to avoid getting shot down, bomb at night. To actually hit something, just carpet bomb a German city and call it a systematic "de-housing" of German workers, who were overseeing the lavish use of foreign labor and actual slave labor at hugely productive if highly inefficient factories turning out all sorts of crazy German weapons... and even then get shot down by Nachtjäger Me110s or Ju88s or what-have-you and absolutely enormous quantities of flak, from 128mm to 105mm to 88mm to 40mm to 37mm to 20mm to... gosh, 15mm aircraft guns repurposed as flak guns, and captured Soviet 85mm guns, some bored out to 88mm and so on and so forth. Sorry 'bout Dresden! Not so much for Hamburg--remember Coventry!--or Lübeck--German bastards' V-1 and V-2 after all!
      Look at Bomber Harris and Bomber Command... truly mind-numbing!

    • @davidbelcher72
      @davidbelcher72 4 года назад

      Reference?

    • @brucebaxter6923
      @brucebaxter6923 4 года назад

      david belcher
      Trump

    • @davecarlson1918
      @davecarlson1918 4 года назад

      @@davidbelcher72 Richard Overy, _The Bombing War: Europe, 1939-1945_ (2013).

  • @mgtowsoldier8673
    @mgtowsoldier8673 4 года назад +2

    The best battle rifle the British Army never had...

  • @b.griffin317
    @b.griffin317 4 года назад +1

    .280 not really intermediate? .280 = 7x41mm, AK = 7.62x39mm, sounds very close.

    • @isaacgomez5730
      @isaacgomez5730 4 года назад

      b. griffin you misheard them. They said 7x49mm

    • @davecarlson1918
      @davecarlson1918 4 года назад

      @@isaacgomez5730 The .280/7x43mm should not be confused with the "optimum" or 7x49mm Liviano cartidge

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад

      It's on the high end of power, being close to or above the 6.5 Arisaka in power.

  • @vonsprague7913
    @vonsprague7913 3 года назад +4

    Britain was right but the US was Bankrolling NATO at the time (for some countries this never changed) so the US got their way and spent a fortune on their shortest serving rifle. They then went on alone and went .556 meaning for 20 years NATO didn't share a calibre anyway!

  • @Cross31415
    @Cross31415 4 года назад +5

    It's a wonderful story, but as some others point out, the audio quality is a bit poor. There's a lot of room echo, and some white noise from the mic gain being too high. Am I right to assume you're using a camera mounted mic, Ian? If so, you might want to consider getting a pair or three lapel mics, as you'll get clearer voice out of them with less room ambience.

  • @malcolmtaylor518
    @malcolmtaylor518 2 года назад +1

    At the end of the second world war, Britain was bankrupt, and a huge debtor to the US. Is it any surprise we made these decisions? To have proceeded with these weapons would have required the kind of Victorian confidence and determination that had been broken by the 1940's.

  • @davidwatson8118
    @davidwatson8118 4 года назад

    The sound is terrible, cant hear what is going on.

  • @Igor_TT
    @Igor_TT 4 года назад +1

    This does not look much shorter than M-16

  • @GARDENER42
    @GARDENER42 4 года назад

    Pledged for the red book - it'll go well with my copy of The FAL Rifle (which contains a photo of Churchill's presentation FAL, complete with gold inlaid engraving).

  • @thomassymonds6308
    @thomassymonds6308 4 года назад

    very cool story, thanks for sharing!

  • @sergarlantyrell7847
    @sergarlantyrell7847 4 года назад

    As much as I think it would be better for everyone than the 7.62x51mm for an AR, I'm not sure I really like .280 cartridge.
    It might just be aesthetically I don't like the short & fat, heavily necked down look, but it seems like it would be inconvenient for either magazine capacity or belt feeding.

  • @edmundscycles1
    @edmundscycles1 4 года назад +1

    My cousin who is in the british army as a REME loved his SUSAT sight .

  • @sahyadubowik6808
    @sahyadubowik6808 4 года назад +1

    Enfield EM-2 game yes

  • @MostlyPennyCat
    @MostlyPennyCat 4 года назад +52

    "Very different lessons"
    The Americans learnt a lesson?
    What?

    • @austinm.9832
      @austinm.9832 4 года назад +3

      I see you are speakin proper American.

    • @xclonejager6959
      @xclonejager6959 4 года назад +12

      James Neave To try and beat the french for the title of the most annoying git in NATO?

    • @TripleThreatKris
      @TripleThreatKris 4 года назад +5

      Probably learning from the complaints of M1 carbine stopping power and thinking that only a full power cartridge will do. Blame GIs who couldn't hit shit and thusly blamed 30 carbine stopping power for their accuracy problem

    • @Reniconix
      @Reniconix 4 года назад +5

      @@TripleThreatKris That didn't manifest until after the Korean War and GIs during WWII absolutely LOVED the M1 Carbine. These complaints never surfaced until well after the Korean War and never with any substantiated claims. No primary source cites this ever being a thing.

    • @USN1985dos
      @USN1985dos 4 года назад +4

      @@xclonejager6959 That's a war that's as hopeless as Vietnam, but we'll prosecute it with the same level of determination and waste. We shall not rest until we are loathed from Klaipeda to Vancouver, and Antalya to Reykjavik. Let no soul welcome the sight of the Stars & Stripes with a smile and kind word, but groan in annoyance as we lecture you on why, exactly, it is that soccer is a lame sport that should be replaced by true, glorious, American football.

  • @danamunkelt3276
    @danamunkelt3276 4 года назад

    Please do fix the acoustics. A rug on the floor, pin a drape to the wall, bodies on the gurnies...

  • @magecraft2
    @magecraft2 4 года назад +1

    Would be interested in if there was any reasoning why they did not revisit this design (update it) when we went to develop our new post SLR rifle. Damn the pandemic really wanted to order this book but can not justify it atm, I guess I will have to pay full price later :(

    • @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries
      @JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries 4 года назад +1

      None that I've been able to find (mentions of EM2 are very few in the archives for EWS/SA80), but they were conscious of cost from the outset. EM2 would have cost more than the SLR, and the SLR cost more than they were originally willing to pay for the new weapon. Quite honestly the AR-18 mechanical design was superior in every way to the EM2, and should have formed an excellent and affordable basis for a new weapon... EM2 is extremely complex and has other downsides.

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад

      @@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries had they actually just bought the AR-18 design instead of reverse engineering it, I bet the original SA80 would have been vastly better. But instead the design got handed to a bunch of people who had never designed a firearm before and who were getting laid off as soon as the SA80 was done.

  • @sethy5136
    @sethy5136 4 года назад

    Lovely!

  • @mw3fanatic
    @mw3fanatic 4 года назад

    Really excited for the book. Keep up the good work.

  • @MostlyPennyCat
    @MostlyPennyCat 4 года назад

    So, did the British combine a light weight bullet j with a high velocity? Or was this just long before that idea?

    • @Litany_of_Fury
      @Litany_of_Fury 4 года назад

      yes

    • @idiotidiot4522
      @idiotidiot4522 4 года назад

      No . Early loads are very mild while late are practicality rifle cartriges

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад

      It's really closer to 6.5x55 in a shorter case. Really pretty light by battle rifle standards, but well above x39 or 7.92 kurz.

  • @issakoyshman6494
    @issakoyshman6494 4 года назад

    Hey i want to know what U think about about the game "world of guns" and if this good sorce to get some info about the guns, i still gonna watch this channel.....but i just want to know if its a "nice game" with good info

    • @issakoyshman6494
      @issakoyshman6494 4 года назад

      Sorry about my txt im russian

    • @elobiretv
      @elobiretv 11 месяцев назад

      Jonathan was sponsored by them in a video recently and said it's very good

  • @paulgray5513
    @paulgray5513 4 года назад

    Is their some irony in that potentially the new american assault rifle will be in 6.8spc or in NATO nomenculture 6.8x43 hmm. The cartridge base diameter is closer to 280 british as well. 280 british would be 7.2x43 I believe.

    • @alswann2702
      @alswann2702 4 года назад

      Ain't gonna happen.

    • @ScottKenny1978
      @ScottKenny1978 4 года назад

      Nope, that's not project overmatch. Overmatch is trying to launch a 130+gr slug at 3000+fps for some stupid reason (!).

  • @JohnCenaRektU
    @JohnCenaRektU 4 года назад +6

    great vid, poor sound

  • @TheManFromCanada
    @TheManFromCanada 3 года назад

    And now we might go to a 6.8mm cartridge if the NGSW program actually goes somewhere...

  • @markfergerson2145
    @markfergerson2145 4 года назад

    Is it just me or does the soldier in the thumbnail seem to be thinking "How am I supposed to hold this thing?"

  • @alswann2702
    @alswann2702 4 года назад +1

    I automatically started humming Me 'N Me Little Armalite when I saw pic of a British firearm in the notification.

  • @greydonstautzenberger3901
    @greydonstautzenberger3901 3 года назад

    Keep it up

  • @MrKevo36
    @MrKevo36 4 года назад +1

    Nice

  • @TGXB
    @TGXB 4 года назад

    It's quite difficult to hear

  • @steveasyliveasy2436
    @steveasyliveasy2436 4 года назад

    you should boost audio on this one. You need a shirt Mic. I'll buy your book On french firearms asap.

  • @kenny344
    @kenny344 4 года назад

    Nice.

  • @matthewcirillo8054
    @matthewcirillo8054 4 года назад

    Cant wait for this series to be over.

  • @mujdatozc
    @mujdatozc 4 года назад

    Cool rifle 😁

  • @woltews
    @woltews 4 года назад +1

    wow and today it would be illegal for Winston Churchill to own that FAL

  • @bassmith448bassist5
    @bassmith448bassist5 4 года назад +1

    Thus speaketh gun Jesus and Johnathan.