He also got rid of that life time warranty on that Wera screwdriver by hammering it , the ones that you can hit with a hammer have yellow handle inserts .
Best reasonable fix that is cheap, is to use push rivets/screw nails. They're essentially rivets that get pushed into a hole, and HAVE to be drilled out. About 5 cents each, at consumer prices.
You would have thought the switch at the bottom of the door would trigger an alert. I guess they never figured on a thief with a rock and a screwdriver.
@@RobCrawford23 Can't really call it breaking... if you can just put it back together with a screwdriver and 2 screws. Then again.. you can't really call this a SAFE either. I'd call it a screwed closed box.
Easy fix , tri wing screws , its not many that carry that one with them . Better , bolts in a hex hole totally flush to surface and you screw the locking bar from inside to that bolt .
What baffles me is they even knew this was an issue, and resorted to a tiny drop of epoxy in the screw head... just wtf, you secure a $5 toy you don't want disassembled that way, not a key safe that's supposed to grant you access to the house
@@boboften9952 Actually true. As a kid, I liked to take apart toys and put them back together (when I could) and McDonalds toys frustrated the hell out of me with their triangle screws because I didn't figure out the trick where you can just use a hex/allen key screwdriver in them. But even that stupid kid version of me could have taken this lock apart easily.
Ben Snow, Correct, it's amazing Ben that they knew this, and what is even more ridiculous is that they used regular screws not security screws. Master Lock should be ashamed of them selves.
Hey Bill. Does the last sentence in the video mean that you will never review Masterlocks again? We have to give it to ML. The entertainment value is 10/10, even if security is 0/10
Replace screws with torx and after screwing back with locktite, hammer a ballbearing into the torx head. This is how a concrete mc lock shackle is fastened. Real hard to get screw out. Great videos Bill 😎
You could probably argue that in a lot of other countries, too. I'm not a lawyer, but if you can just disassemble a lock with out needing a key, its not fit for purpose.
One more question Bill: Is it possible to remove that plastic cover with a set of laptop shims and tools without damaging it? If you can make the lock look like it's never been opened with a set of common tools then Masterlock has truly lived up to their reputation.
Gotta be really careful, but I think there will be glue/epoxy residue that will prevent a flush fit on re-install. Or the cover is designed to stretch/fail before the glue would give. Bill should be able to answer this one, im curious aswell...you know for a friend...
Battery powered heatgun on medium, 2 minutes and a guitar pick will take that face off. As for the glue, you just need a sharp metal to scoop it out. The MasterLockMorons didn't even put the loctite in the right place, note how it's on the head of the screw, not on the threads.
@@aserta maybe it is not even loctite, but rubber to prevent moisture to creep inside in my opinion, they should have threaded the bolts inside the lid directly from the inside, instead of securing them with any kind of screw accessible from the outside of the lock. since they are kept in place by the ball bearings it should not be able to rotate them outside this thread from outside Greetings from germany :)
@@priitmolder6475 Is it glued? I thought the plastic molding was just held on with snap tabs. Still not a big deal, just start peeling from the bottom where you can keep heat on the lock body instead of the plastic. That battery terminal might get a bit crispy but it's out of sight.
It's Bluetooth, not WiFi, so you wouldn't even get the notification until you get into BLE range, which i'm assuming they used a 2.5mW transmitter, so 33' at best.
As someone who works/shapes epoxy a lot, digging the screws out with a sharp utility knife wont take much time- they're SO shallow (I always have a tiny Gerber utility folder in that otherwise useless tiny front pocket on all my pants). It's faster than cutting the shackle by hand- and then still having to get the key out. It's not a fix. Just saying. I rarely comment, but love your videos. Thank you for creating so much for for all of us, we really appreciate it.
Years ago, ne'erdowell's found that a broken spark plug quietly and easily smashed car side windows with comparitive ease and was the common method of getting in until China made it almost lazy with a "emergency" hammer that did it even better, I knew a couple car thieves who had a ring of keys, a couple busted spark plugs and if all else fails the arm bit of an old windscreen wiper often yielded a car. Old dashboard mounted ignition Mini's could be opened and started with a Spam tinned meat key, no joke.
Oh, I'm pretty sure you'll give MasterLock a LOT more of your money, just not on this model. They'll always come out with something new you'll want to review.
The money wasn't completely lost, because I did now see proof the pins can actually be removed when it's closed (I thought they were deeper into the door, so they might not have enough leeway to open like that. Master never fails to disappoint I guess)
A point to mention. You would only get notified that the lock had been opened when you were near the lock anyway. It communicates through Bluetooth so you have to be within Bluetooth range to have any communication with it. Same thing for the "location". It's just using the location of your phone the last time you connected. It's not like you could track the lock.
4 года назад+5
Bosnianbill : first and only client of Master lock.
The scary thing is I see them used to "secure" high value items all over the place, I was at a customers address last week and they had No.3 padlock securing an outside tool storage locker (thick steel site storage box), the box was filled with Hilti power tools
Great follow up video Bill! Thank you for answering the question "Will the door open if the rest of the box hasn't been mangled?", or something like that.
Thanks for doing the followup. Great catch on the dob of glue, surprised if they were aware of it that they didn't go the half cent more for a full infill of epoxy.
lots of comments about changing the screws, but a knowledgable thief would carry a dremel with drill bit and just drill off the head of the screws, the posidrive centre even makes it easy to centre the bit. far easier than attacking the shackle or getting a screwdriver to fit.
Just use a cordless angle grinder...cut the shackle, like nearly every padlock ever built, it's not that difficult! Locks are for honest people not knowledgeable criminals.
You can also just drill the screw heads off. Any option that leaves the screws as the only thing holding the locking bolts to the face leaves the same weakness in the lock.
The most effective way to fix this Master Lock, replace the 2 phillips screws with hardened steel One Way screws with loctite 271 applied. End of story.
Note: You won't ever get any tamper/unlocked notifications from the lock unless you are near the device (bluetooth range 15 metres). It's not wifi enabled with an internet connection. So you're stuffed either way.
I wonder why they designed it that way, it's almost as if they did that deliberately. I mean they went through the trouble of filling the screw head with glue or epoxy and then using loctite. If it was welded maybe, just maybe you could break the welds but heck, they didn't even try and use Torx screws.
They could fill the wells of the screw heads with some of that low melt aluminium welding rod, its not a proof against dedicated attacks but it raises the inconvenience factor massively which is what a lock should do always.
@@dodgydruid this is a silent attack, the best method to ensure it is "secure" is to make sure that any attack vector creates the most amount of noise. Which means, they have to grind metal in some way. Just throwing some welds in there... Or... Making those pins screw into the lid, instead of screwing through the front... It's like they did this on purpose.
If someone really wants in, they will just do a physical attack, so filling the scree heads with some sort of weld compound would have been more than enough.
The biggest issue with using any screws to secure the locking posts like this is that security or not, glued in place or not, it's an easy target to attack with a simple cordless drill. In industrial applications the easiest way to remove a stripped screw is to drill the head off to release the tension on the threads. I can't imagine these are any sort of super grade hardware that will resist drilling, it should be a matter of seconds to drill through the screw heads far enough to pop them off.
Even flat headed screws in from the top , no driver possible to lock onto them , and wind the pins in from the internal side ( using a loctite type product ). So that they at least cannot be undone with a Phillips or slotted or torn if that is the head . ( and that they at least look like part of the casing )
The red Loctite that I use will not release unless it has been heated. But even that wouldn't help because if you got a good enough grip on the screw it would simply break off
Does the trigger at the bottom log the event of the lock being opened/closed? Bluetooth will only work in short range, so no you are not going to get an alert when it is tampered with. However, will the app log the open/close if a thief opens and closes it without the appearance of physical damage? Flaws with the lock aside, you cannot knock if for not doing something it was not designed to do (Notify you of tampering outside of Bluetooth range).
Bill, did you register that lock and make sure there was no notification? If I recall correctly there is a trip switch used to tell the lock it is open to prevent an automatic re-lock. That could easily be the trigger for the open notification rather than the locking pawls. Strictly speaking as a computer programmer, since I had already programmed it to sense a condition of open from that switch, I would, out of pure laziness, use that to determine whether or not it was open for the apps purposes. If I was less lazy, I would add the locking mechanism as a second trigger.
@Michael Persico if you had actually clicked the timestamp then you would know i was talking about the notification you get when its opened without the app. that switch is already connected to control circuitry, so it would make way more sense if it was what detected if the lock has been opened. so the lock can send the notification that it has been opened, even if it was forced open.
It could be fixed by drilling the post holes to size of the locking post and make new ones from a carriage bolt that could be cut down to the correct diameter to fit the recieving holes and notches cut to match original posts and then epoxy them in place. Of course not buying it would be better as Bill said.
On the same theory as the carriage bolts, a lot of the leversets we install at work have posts with notches cut in them, that slide down into a groove cut in the backing plate, so even if the screws are removed from the exterior, the posts can't be removed.. simple but effective
@@naturalorang3 If you just gonna fill the top of the screws, can't an attacker use some sort of hard and sharp enough tool to basically make a new groove in the screw head and still screw it out?
Considering the thing with the screws as well as the fact that the door has a microswitch to monitor it's open/closed-status it seems a, shall we say, interesting design decision to send the door-opened-message only if the lock has been opened the -proper- boring way...
It's worse than not knowing it was open: You can probably reclose it without the owner knowing. So you can make a spare copy of the key, or rob the appartment, or whatever. And last but not least, you'll hardly claim any insurence, as there would be no signs of physical damage to anything. (Well, you'd have to remove the gray plaatic carefully, but it looks doable.)
I like this as it shows MasterLock designers did see these bolts as a weak point and they tried to address it. But instead of a blob of weld in the screws to completely seal them all someone did was toss in a small blob of glue .. glue that can be easily beat into so then the screwdriver works. Heck with this weakness shown I can imagine someone needs only a small template for the lock. A little drill here through the cover, and little drill here for the other screw, use a tap screwdriver to get into the heads, remove them and up it pops. Say what .. 30 seconds to get into the lock, tops? And then to add insult to injury the thief could take the contents, close the box and put a quick dab of super glue along the edge so the owner can't get the box open again. Another item is how they did add that little pin in the bottom that relocks the box if the lid is close enough .. so they have a built in mechanism to detect if the box is open! It would take very little to adjust that to send a signal if the box is open while the lock is still in place. Of course you might get some false positives if like the reviewer did the box lid is partially closed so it triggers the relock sequence but bolts are not in place so it doesn't really lock. But hey I think that's even better as you are being careless and could easily forget to close it all the way and leave it open by mistake (ooops) so it's more like a reminder anyway.
I hope you don't give them no more money, definitely their not worth it except to find their flaws is about it, we know they're there. Nicely done Bill.
Regarding the alert if opened. You remarked on the micro switch that detects opening in your first installmant. I don't think there is any other way the clamshell is detected open. Have you tested with the screws bypased? All the best BB
Couple of ways to improve this lock: ditch the phillips screws, get the approporiate hex ones, tighten with locktite and jam small ball bearings in hex sockets. Second one, more ofa design improvement for Master, weld the locking bolts to a flat piece of steel, insert it from the outside and affix from i side with a small screw.
You can glue the screws to the bolts so that the screwdriver won't work. I had one on a house and the owner brought painters and locksmith over. I got a call from the owner saying the lockbox won't lock. When I went over the plate on the bottom-inside was missing exposing the ribbon cable. The ball bearings wouldn't go in to place. Tried resetting it per Masterlock suggestions but wouldn't work. Turns out the locksmith deliberately was tinkering with the lock box to figure out how to remove it and ended up breaking the lock box,. I suspect they tried using a magnet on it, magnetizing the ball bearings. I also noticed they damaged the outside of the box.
Swap out the screws for Torx security screws with a post in the middle. That will stop most common thieves without the proper tool. Then add glue to fill that up. I suggest thin Cyanocrylate (CA or Super Glue) with fine powdered baking soda. That creates a literally rock hard filler. One might also consider filling the screw with solder or brass. Any of the three mentioned fillers would take more than a few taps to displace.
Seems like the hot setup if you already bought this is Loctite on the screws, and then fill up the heads with epoxy, and put the cut off cover back on, glued in place.
Several thoughts: Why not weld or bolt instead of screw? It could also be so easy to implement a loud alarm noise when the door opens without using the code or app. I really would like to see what happens if you put 110/220V on that jumper plates. i guess the electronics gets destroyed and those Philips screws are the only way in.
You noted the button that detects if the the door is open in the previous video. Is there any reason why the lock could not detect this 'open' using that sensor (not that knowing it got opened would really help much)?
the obvious design solution would be to have the lock pins themselves threaded into the solid front so they could only be removed when the lock is open. no screws required.
Hey, Master -- here's an idea: Try putting the red thread locker on the actual threads! A little drop under the head does very little, but if they coated the threads, you'd never get them out. Since you removed the screws without damaging them, why not try properly applying the red Loctite and make another attempt?
There are actual security screws that you can't get out without drilling. Some heads are cut in a way that drivers with only grip when you you turn them clockwise, others are made so that the actual head will shear at a certain torque, leaving only a round, blank head behind. I thought that was common knowledge.
Yes, back in the day, they'd use the bolts with shear heads to attach the ignition lock cylinders to steering columns. Once torqued, the head would break off rendering them impossible to remove without grinding/drilling.
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, a HSS drill bit would chew the heads off those screws lickety split. 120$ paperweight these things are.
Masterlock wasn’t interested in making it secure just make it look good and make money, security screw would of cost extra hitting there profit margins
@@FL.Cracker you can drill pretty much every bolt there is. If you really wanted to break into that case, you could probably pry it open relatively easily. But using force always requires more tools and makes more noise than just using a knife and a screwdriver.
@@blarfroer8066 of course. My point was that stripping those screws isn't gonna keep anyone out of that lock that wants in. 30 sec tops with a drill and maybe quicker if you pre strip the heads. Which is certainly going to be quieter than smacking it with a hammer trying to get your screwdriver set in the head.
"The only time you'll know it's been opened is when you see the lock hanging open like that" And the criminal mindset in me thinks of not destroying the cover, opening the lockbox, taking the key and using the key to open whatever is supposed to be protected, stealing the expensive inventory or whatever is locked with said key, putting the key back in the lock box and screwing the screws back and fixing the cover. So whoever is in charge of the key after that fact will be accused of the theft in question. They won't even investigate the actual theft.
All the had to do was make the recess on the locking pins go all the way around and then they would have just turned when you turned the screws. So many easy solutions.
Can you do a full teardown on this lock box? We just bought a house and the seller left one of these on the front door and is now non-responsive to requests for removal. Wondering if there's an easy way to take this off with only a secondary code for the front cover and avoid resorting to an angle grinder.
What about the 5440ENT, I called Master Lock to asked them if they fixed that problem in the 5440ENT and they said the did. I would love to know if they really fixed it
The obvious enhancement to grinding away the Philips recess is to first reinstall the screws using red loctite (correctly!), and then grind the heads smooth.
IME a few picks with a suitable watchmaker's screwdriver usually deals with epoxy in a Phillips/Pozidriv recess. Torx or Allen heads need the centre drilling out first.
Replace the philips screws with hexagonal bolt heads, screw it down and use a Dremel to just grind off the protruding part of the bolt so it is level with the rest on the casing.
Heating the screwdriver up (a low cost one) would likely allow you to melt the epoxy almost instantly and would possibly transfer into the loctite a bit making it a lot less pressure and far less noise. I like the idea of "ream the screws" flat, that's a pretty sure fire way of making it much more secure. Another issue is the dumb use of a CR series battery, AA or even AAA would have been much easier to come by and a lower profile to boot!
CR123 batteries are lithium-metal batteries and, as such, have a longer life and better cold-temperature performance than AA/AAA alkaline batteries. You'd also need two AA/AAA batteries to get the same voltage as the single CR123, reducing the utility of "lower profile".
They could redesign this and have a long threaded screw that runs from the side to hold the locking pins in place. This would be shielded from attack by the outer casing. You could also run some left to right and some right to left so a thief wouldn't be sure which side to attack.
Just thread the outsides of the locking pins, and screw them in directly into the metal body. As long as the ball bearings are in place, you can't rotate those pins, so you cant unscrew them even if the hole goes right through
Bill makes a 20 min video about a lock that probably has issues and some successes. Now he makes a 6 min video (yes I can round but I'm not doing so well here). This interests me. Mainly cause of the title and that he has a had a few more days or community feedback of what does or doesnt work. Meaning if this is a collaboration with people, that is what is interesting. (if you couldnt guess, I have yet to play either of his videos on this topic, just first impressions)
Nope, you can't feel the screws, but you can pry it up enough, with a knife, to see the screws (without damaging the lock). My HD was out of the wall mounted version though.
If remember correctly, there should be a lock tight glue that would have prevented this from happening. I am not 100% confident about the color but I think it was green. That stuff is usually used to secure pulleys on axes in a nonremoveable way. When used in the right way you will rather break of the head than remove the screw. So this might be a good way to recover from this faulty design.
If I owed that lock I think I would put some security screws inane then cover the screws with some JB Weld. The strength of JB weld is very impressive Project Farm tests a lot of engine stuff, and he made a piston head out of JB weld and ran the engine, and it held up to the pressure of a piston hitting it, so It can handle reinforcing them screws.
master lock did use glue and lock tight, it shows you that they care and used the bare minimum amount necessary to prevent tampering and the screws falling out during shipping/normal use.
_...used the bare minimum amount necessary to prevent tampering..._ They did not use the necessary amount ,they used less than the necessary minimum and that is an issue.
It took him seconds. Seconds. That's not caring. Heck, I wonder if that's not even just overflow from the glue used to hold down the rubber cover plate.
@@ethelryan257 they used lock tight on the screws and glue or something else on top of the screw to prevent tampering. it took seconds because he stripped the screw on the last unit. not that it would stop a person with determination. he wanted to do it properly from the start now that he had experience on that lock.
There are special "shear bolts" that are used for car ignition lock cylinders. Remove the 2 Phillips screws and insert 2 shear bolts. Once they have been tightened down, the head breaks off... I.E. no head to grip, would have to be drilled out.
To defeat the glue placed into the screw heads without hitting them and making noise...simply heat the tip of the screwdriver with an ordinary lighter and insert into screw. Quick and quiet access.
Seems to me there's a REALLY easy fix for MasterLock... Link the two locking bars with a metal plate between them, secured by the small screw on the inside of the lid, so you can't separate the bars from the lid nearly ad easily, even if you remove the retaining screws...😅
How did those screws make it past the prototype stage? I mean it would be so simple to have blind tapped holes on the inside and just screw in threaded posts from the inside.
Question: Have you actually checked if you get a notification? Because as I recall the lock does have an open/close sensor at the bottom. And I would 100% use that if I where to program the lock. Could of course be laziness on masterlocks part. Just being curious
I think the lock feedbacks to the app when opened or closed, as the app shows a lock open or close. Question is: Does it report "open" when opened NOT the usual way (by app or code)?
@@HSishi And does it simply go: "I have received a opening command, therefore I have been opened" or does it go the extra step to check if the door is open? Maybe even wonder why the door isn't closed anymore even thought it is still locked....
![[1020] SentrySafe Opened With a Coat Hanger!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/i7g-TvczpSw/mqdefault.jpg)
Master sales team: the dumber we make these locks, the more Bosnianbill will buy.
He also got rid of that life time warranty on that Wera screwdriver by hammering it , the ones that you can hit with a hammer have yellow handle inserts .
This would be a perfect application for in impact screwdriver.
Great video... that design is a real head shaker.
Its asinine how masterlock puts so much effort in a product only to leave a huge gaping flaw
Let’s invest $150,000 in R&D to make the best lockbox ever made, and then leave it with a 10¢ security flaw. - Definitely Master Lock 🤦🏻♂️
what if they add mettel plates above the scrrews
Best reasonable fix that is cheap, is to use push rivets/screw nails. They're essentially rivets that get pushed into a hole, and HAVE to be drilled out. About 5 cents each, at consumer prices.
You would have thought the switch at the bottom of the door would trigger an alert. I guess they never figured on a thief with a rock and a screwdriver.
That would be needed if someone opened the lock without the code, which is obviously impossible. Only human error could compromise this lock.
I was thinking the same thing. However, since it only communicates via bluetooth, you'd have to be close in order to get an alert.
Well you will get an alert while you stand and watch somebody break your lockbox
@@RobCrawford23 Can't really call it breaking... if you can just put it back together with a screwdriver and 2 screws. Then again.. you can't really call this a SAFE either. I'd call it a screwed closed box.
Easy fix , tri wing screws , its not many that carry that one with them .
Better , bolts in a hex hole totally flush to surface and you screw the locking bar from inside to that bolt .
That "non notification" when it is opened is the frosting on the cake which proves the designer's and engineers are oblivious to security.
The thing even has a micro switch triggered by the door, it should know! Master have no effing idea what they're doing
What baffles me is they even knew this was an issue, and resorted to a tiny drop of epoxy in the screw head... just wtf, you secure a $5 toy you don't want disassembled that way, not a key safe that's supposed to grant you access to the house
McDonald's toys are more secure than this . Go figure.
@@boboften9952 Actually true. As a kid, I liked to take apart toys and put them back together (when I could) and McDonalds toys frustrated the hell out of me with their triangle screws because I didn't figure out the trick where you can just use a hex/allen key screwdriver in them. But even that stupid kid version of me could have taken this lock apart easily.
Ben Snow, Correct, it's amazing Ben that they knew this, and what is even more ridiculous is that they used regular screws not security screws. Master Lock should be ashamed of them selves.
Hey Bill. Does the last sentence in the video mean that you will never review Masterlocks again? We have to give it to ML. The entertainment value is 10/10, even if security is 0/10
Replace screws with torx and after screwing back with locktite, hammer a ballbearing into the torx head. This is how a concrete mc lock shackle is fastened. Real hard to get screw out. Great videos Bill 😎
For anyone in Australia: This is clearly not fit for purpose, so you are entitled to a full refund under ACCC laws.
You could probably argue that in a lot of other countries, too. I'm not a lawyer, but if you can just disassemble a lock with out needing a key, its not fit for purpose.
proving to MAGATs once again that government regulation is bad for the economy
Rabo Karabekian No it is not. It just incentivizes companies to MAKE BETTER STUFF IF THEY WANT THEIR MONEY!
"I'm not gonna give Master Lock any more of my money!" - Next week: "Alright, guys. I have a new lock from Master Lock..."
One more question Bill:
Is it possible to remove that plastic cover with a set of laptop shims and tools without damaging it? If you can make the lock look like it's never been opened with a set of common tools then Masterlock has truly lived up to their reputation.
Isn't the lock already humiliated enough? :)
Gotta be really careful, but I think there will be glue/epoxy residue that will prevent a flush fit on re-install. Or the cover is designed to stretch/fail before the glue would give. Bill should be able to answer this one, im curious aswell...you know for a friend...
Battery powered heatgun on medium, 2 minutes and a guitar pick will take that face off. As for the glue, you just need a sharp metal to scoop it out. The MasterLockMorons didn't even put the loctite in the right place, note how it's on the head of the screw, not on the threads.
@@aserta maybe it is not even loctite, but rubber to prevent moisture to creep inside
in my opinion, they should have threaded the bolts inside the lid directly from the inside, instead of securing them with any kind of screw accessible from the outside of the lock. since they are kept in place by the ball bearings it should not be able to rotate them outside this thread from outside
Greetings from germany :)
@@priitmolder6475 Is it glued? I thought the plastic molding was just held on with snap tabs.
Still not a big deal, just start peeling from the bottom where you can keep heat on the lock body instead of the plastic. That battery terminal might get a bit crispy but it's out of sight.
It's Bluetooth, not WiFi, so you wouldn't even get the notification until you get into BLE range, which i'm assuming they used a 2.5mW transmitter, so 33' at best.
If they used an ESP32 (common embedded processor) for this they would be able to add WiFi support with a firmware update.
As someone who works/shapes epoxy a lot, digging the screws out with a sharp utility knife wont take much time- they're SO shallow (I always have a tiny Gerber utility folder in that otherwise useless tiny front pocket on all my pants). It's faster than cutting the shackle by hand- and then still having to get the key out. It's not a fix. Just saying. I rarely comment, but love your videos. Thank you for creating so much for for all of us, we really appreciate it.
Wasn’t expecting to get a “rock or something” reference on this channel but here we are!
I doubt many who are into guns and and locksport aren't also at least a little bit prepper.
Years ago, ne'erdowell's found that a broken spark plug quietly and easily smashed car side windows with comparitive ease and was the common method of getting in until China made it almost lazy with a "emergency" hammer that did it even better, I knew a couple car thieves who had a ring of keys, a couple busted spark plugs and if all else fails the arm bit of an old windscreen wiper often yielded a car. Old dashboard mounted ignition Mini's could be opened and started with a Spam tinned meat key, no joke.
that's the other way in, hit it with a rock lol.
once those screws are fixed somehow this seems to be the best key safe I think I've seen on here.
Buy one, weld the screws, enjoy.
. . . except for the dinky 1/4" shackle and the hinge pin that can be drifted out . . .
Oh, I'm pretty sure you'll give MasterLock a LOT more of your money, just not on this model.
They'll always come out with something new you'll want to review.
Yeah
I think the only way to beat Master Lock is to take their locks and improve on them .
Great video! I’m glad you showed us the complete opening of the lock.
The money wasn't completely lost, because I did now see proof the pins can actually be removed when it's closed (I thought they were deeper into the door, so they might not have enough leeway to open like that. Master never fails to disappoint I guess)
Of all the ways to fail in designing a lock, I never would have expected THAT. It's beyond unforgivable.
A point to mention. You would only get notified that the lock had been opened when you were near the lock anyway. It communicates through Bluetooth so you have to be within Bluetooth range to have any communication with it. Same thing for the "location". It's just using the location of your phone the last time you connected. It's not like you could track the lock.
Bosnianbill : first and only client of Master lock.
The scary thing is I see them used to "secure" high value items all over the place, I was at a customers address last week and they had No.3 padlock securing an outside tool storage locker (thick steel site storage box), the box was filled with Hilti power tools
"the best option is not to buy the lock the next best is to return the lock" best advice for the beginning of the year
Great follow up video Bill! Thank you for answering the question "Will the door open if the rest of the box hasn't been mangled?", or something like that.
Thanks for doing the followup. Great catch on the dob of glue, surprised if they were aware of it that they didn't go the half cent more for a full infill of epoxy.
Thanks for this follow up, Bill. I wasn't sure if the pawls would come away from the door like that, but they sure did.
Really glad to see this follow up video. thanks.
lots of comments about changing the screws, but a knowledgable thief would carry a dremel with drill bit and just drill off the head of the screws, the posidrive centre even makes it easy to centre the bit. far easier than attacking the shackle or getting a screwdriver to fit.
Just use a cordless angle grinder...cut the shackle, like nearly every padlock ever built, it's not that difficult! Locks are for honest people not knowledgeable criminals.
You can also just drill the screw heads off. Any option that leaves the screws as the only thing holding the locking bolts to the face leaves the same weakness in the lock.
I've had "Easy-Open" boxes of Minute Rice™ that were harder to open. :(
Lol have had bags of dog food harder to open with the string than master locks =)
Thanks for the video. I did have a question about prying it open from a locked position. Thanks for all the work in keeping us informed and secure!
Excellent follow up. I would simply round out the screw heads as you mentioned.
Yes but surely that should be done in the factory??
Thank you for addressing my question from the previous video. Sorry about the $127 extra. I will check out your Patreon. ;)
Another Master Lock that can be used as a very expensive paperweight
.
What a nice series of paperweights they make :-)
How would the lock notify the app that it has been opened? It only has Bluetooth, no cellular or WiFi connectivity?
Bonus feature is you can put the screws back in and swap/plant the contents and glue the plastic back on with little evidence you were there
The most effective way to fix this Master Lock, replace the 2 phillips screws with hardened steel One Way screws with loctite 271 applied. End of story.
Butane torch and Bob's your Auntie.
Wont do you any good with one-way screws.
WHY should anyone have to do that??? TAKE it back
Forget the 271 and set the screws with epoxy.
Note: You won't ever get any tamper/unlocked notifications from the lock unless you are near the device (bluetooth range 15 metres). It's not wifi enabled with an internet connection. So you're stuffed either way.
Again if they welded it instead they’d have a pretty decent product.
I wonder why they designed it that way, it's almost as if they did that deliberately. I mean they went through the trouble of filling the screw head with glue or epoxy and then using loctite. If it was welded maybe, just maybe you could break the welds but heck, they didn't even try and use Torx screws.
Even rivets (or if the posts themselves had been threaded) would have been an improvement.
They could fill the wells of the screw heads with some of that low melt aluminium welding rod, its not a proof against dedicated attacks but it raises the inconvenience factor massively which is what a lock should do always.
@@dodgydruid this is a silent attack, the best method to ensure it is "secure" is to make sure that any attack vector creates the most amount of noise. Which means, they have to grind metal in some way. Just throwing some welds in there... Or... Making those pins screw into the lid, instead of screwing through the front... It's like they did this on purpose.
If someone really wants in, they will just do a physical attack, so filling the scree heads with some sort of weld compound would have been more than enough.
The biggest issue with using any screws to secure the locking posts like this is that security or not, glued in place or not, it's an easy target to attack with a simple cordless drill. In industrial applications the easiest way to remove a stripped screw is to drill the head off to release the tension on the threads. I can't imagine these are any sort of super grade hardware that will resist drilling, it should be a matter of seconds to drill through the screw heads far enough to pop them off.
Even flat headed screws in from the top , no driver possible to lock onto them , and wind the pins in from the internal side ( using a loctite type product ).
So that they at least cannot be undone with a Phillips or slotted or torn if that is the head . ( and that they at least look like part of the casing )
Good morning from Chicago Bill
The red Loctite that I use will not release unless it has been heated. But even that wouldn't help because if you got a good enough grip on the screw it would simply break off
Thanks for following up Bill
Does the trigger at the bottom log the event of the lock being opened/closed? Bluetooth will only work in short range, so no you are not going to get an alert when it is tampered with. However, will the app log the open/close if a thief opens and closes it without the appearance of physical damage? Flaws with the lock aside, you cannot knock if for not doing something it was not designed to do (Notify you of tampering outside of Bluetooth range).
with using the jb weld, i would get the screws out and put some on the threads also
Bill, did you register that lock and make sure there was no notification? If I recall correctly there is a trip switch used to tell the lock it is open to prevent an automatic re-lock. That could easily be the trigger for the open notification rather than the locking pawls. Strictly speaking as a computer programmer, since I had already programmed it to sense a condition of open from that switch, I would, out of pure laziness, use that to determine whether or not it was open for the apps purposes. If I was less lazy, I would add the locking mechanism as a second trigger.
Enjoyed this video! Thank for sharing Bosnianbill!
5:30 wouldent the microswitch near the hinge be what detects when its opened instead of the software being like "i just opened it so its open"?
@Michael Persico
if you had actually clicked the timestamp then you would know i was talking about the notification you get when its opened without the app.
that switch is already connected to control circuitry, so it would make way more sense if it was what detected if the lock has been opened. so the lock can send the notification that it has been opened, even if it was forced open.
It could be fixed by drilling the post holes to size of the locking post and make new ones from a carriage bolt that could be cut down to the correct diameter to fit the recieving holes and notches cut to match original posts and then epoxy them in place.
Of course not buying it would be better as Bill said.
do they even make carriage bolts that small? Seems like a threaded blind hole would be superior than any sort of bolt anyway.
On the same theory as the carriage bolts, a lot of the leversets we install at work have posts with notches cut in them, that slide down into a groove cut in the backing plate, so even if the screws are removed from the exterior, the posts can't be removed.. simple but effective
Just use a tig welder and put a bead over the top of the screws
@@naturalorang3 If you just gonna fill the top of the screws, can't an attacker use some sort of hard and sharp enough tool to basically make a new groove in the screw head and still screw it out?
MrCh0o I’m saying if you weld the screw to the case with a tig torch you would have to drill out the locking pall.
Considering the thing with the screws as well as the fact that the door has a microswitch to monitor it's open/closed-status it seems a, shall we say, interesting design decision to send the door-opened-message only if the lock has been opened the -proper- boring way...
actually it doesn't matter much, since the range of bluetooth is limited anyways.
@@kallewirsch2263 Haha true. Now I'm imagining them building wifi or a cellular modem into it for longer range. What could possibly go wrong?! :D
It's worse than not knowing it was open: You can probably reclose it without the owner knowing. So you can make a spare copy of the key, or rob the appartment, or whatever. And last but not least, you'll hardly claim any insurence, as there would be no signs of physical damage to anything. (Well, you'd have to remove the gray plaatic carefully, but it looks doable.)
I like this as it shows MasterLock designers did see these bolts as a weak point and they tried to address it. But instead of a blob of weld in the screws to completely seal them all someone did was toss in a small blob of glue .. glue that can be easily beat into so then the screwdriver works. Heck with this weakness shown I can imagine someone needs only a small template for the lock. A little drill here through the cover, and little drill here for the other screw, use a tap screwdriver to get into the heads, remove them and up it pops. Say what .. 30 seconds to get into the lock, tops? And then to add insult to injury the thief could take the contents, close the box and put a quick dab of super glue along the edge so the owner can't get the box open again.
Another item is how they did add that little pin in the bottom that relocks the box if the lid is close enough .. so they have a built in mechanism to detect if the box is open! It would take very little to adjust that to send a signal if the box is open while the lock is still in place. Of course you might get some false positives if like the reviewer did the box lid is partially closed so it triggers the relock sequence but bolts are not in place so it doesn't really lock. But hey I think that's even better as you are being careless and could easily forget to close it all the way and leave it open by mistake (ooops) so it's more like a reminder anyway.
Did you pair this lock to the app this time? The micro switch may still alert that it's been opened since it's pressure sensitive.
I hope you don't give them no more money, definitely their not worth it except to find their flaws is about it, we know they're there. Nicely done Bill.
I think the shackle would be the easiest attack still?
If they knew the exploit...
WHY THEY DIDN'T AT LEAST USE REVITS?!!!!
At the very least forced you to use a drill
Very nicely explained Mr.Bill
Regarding the alert if opened. You remarked on the micro switch that detects opening in your first installmant. I don't think there is any other way the clamshell is detected open. Have you tested with the screws bypased? All the best BB
Couple of ways to improve this lock: ditch the phillips screws, get the approporiate hex ones, tighten with locktite and jam small ball bearings in hex sockets. Second one, more ofa design improvement for Master, weld the locking bolts to a flat piece of steel, insert it from the outside and affix from i side with a small screw.
You can glue the screws to the bolts so that the screwdriver won't work.
I had one on a house and the owner brought painters and locksmith over. I got a call from the owner saying the lockbox won't lock. When I went over the plate on the bottom-inside was missing exposing the ribbon cable. The ball bearings wouldn't go in to place. Tried resetting it per Masterlock suggestions but wouldn't work. Turns out the locksmith deliberately was tinkering with the lock box to figure out how to remove it and ended up breaking the lock box,.
I suspect they tried using a magnet on it, magnetizing the ball bearings.
I also noticed they damaged the outside of the box.
Great slam on Master Bill! 👍
Swap out the screws for Torx security screws with a post in the middle. That will stop most common thieves without the proper tool. Then add glue to fill that up. I suggest thin Cyanocrylate (CA or Super Glue) with fine powdered baking soda. That creates a literally rock hard filler. One might also consider filling the screw with solder or brass. Any of the three mentioned fillers would take more than a few taps to displace.
Seems like the hot setup if you already bought this is Loctite on the screws, and then fill up the heads with epoxy, and put the cut off cover back on, glued in place.
THANK YOU BILL
signed Eyes Wide Open.
Several thoughts:
Why not weld or bolt instead of screw?
It could also be so easy to implement a loud alarm noise when the door opens without using the code or app.
I really would like to see what happens if you put 110/220V on that jumper plates. i guess the electronics gets destroyed and those Philips screws are the only way in.
You noted the button that detects if the the door is open in the previous video. Is there any reason why the lock could not detect this 'open' using that sensor (not that knowing it got opened would really help much)?
You could also get the thread pich and replace them with tamper proof screws if you want.
the obvious design solution would be to have the lock pins themselves threaded into the solid front so they could only be removed when the lock is open. no screws required.
Hey, Master -- here's an idea: Try putting the red thread locker on the actual threads! A little drop under the head does very little, but if they coated the threads, you'd never get them out. Since you removed the screws without damaging them, why not try properly applying the red Loctite and make another attempt?
There are actual security screws that you can't get out without drilling. Some heads are cut in a way that drivers with only grip when you you turn them clockwise, others are made so that the actual head will shear at a certain torque, leaving only a round, blank head behind. I thought that was common knowledge.
Yes, back in the day, they'd use the bolts with shear heads to attach the ignition lock cylinders to steering columns. Once torqued, the head would break off rendering them impossible to remove without grinding/drilling.
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, a HSS drill bit would chew the heads off those screws lickety split. 120$ paperweight these things are.
Masterlock wasn’t interested in making it secure just make it look good and make money, security screw would of cost extra hitting there profit margins
@@FL.Cracker you can drill pretty much every bolt there is. If you really wanted to break into that case, you could probably pry it open relatively easily. But using force always requires more tools and makes more noise than just using a knife and a screwdriver.
@@blarfroer8066 of course. My point was that stripping those screws isn't gonna keep anyone out of that lock that wants in. 30 sec tops with a drill and maybe quicker if you pre strip the heads. Which is certainly going to be quieter than smacking it with a hammer trying to get your screwdriver set in the head.
"The only time you'll know it's been opened is when you see the lock hanging open like that"
And the criminal mindset in me thinks of not destroying the cover, opening the lockbox, taking the key and using the key to open whatever is supposed to be protected, stealing the expensive inventory or whatever is locked with said key, putting the key back in the lock box and screwing the screws back and fixing the cover.
So whoever is in charge of the key after that fact will be accused of the theft in question. They won't even investigate the actual theft.
i like your thinking, but also strangely fear it :)
Junk indeed! Thanks for confirming all of that! Such a shame, with those secured and a thicker shackle it could be a great product
All the had to do was make the recess on the locking pins go all the way around and then they would have just turned when you turned the screws. So many easy solutions.
Can you do a full teardown on this lock box? We just bought a house and the seller left one of these on the front door and is now non-responsive to requests for removal. Wondering if there's an easy way to take this off with only a secondary code for the front cover and avoid resorting to an angle grinder.
Thank you for the follow up boss
What about the 5440ENT, I called Master Lock to asked them if they fixed that problem in the 5440ENT and they said the did. I would love to know if they really fixed it
That is the same question I have? Did the made changes? If yes to what future models!
To properly secure the vulnerability I would replace those screws with shear bolts.
The obvious enhancement to grinding away the Philips recess is to first reinstall the screws using red loctite (correctly!), and then grind the heads smooth.
IME a few picks with a suitable watchmaker's screwdriver usually deals with epoxy in a Phillips/Pozidriv recess. Torx or Allen heads need the centre drilling out first.
Replace the philips screws with hexagonal bolt heads, screw it down and use a Dremel to just grind off the protruding part of the bolt so it is level with the rest on the casing.
You could also use one way screws !!
Heating the screwdriver up (a low cost one) would likely allow you to melt the epoxy almost instantly and would possibly transfer into the loctite a bit making it a lot less pressure and far less noise. I like the idea of "ream the screws" flat, that's a pretty sure fire way of making it much more secure. Another issue is the dumb use of a CR series battery, AA or even AAA would have been much easier to come by and a lower profile to boot!
CR123 batteries are lithium-metal batteries and, as such, have a longer life and better cold-temperature performance than AA/AAA alkaline batteries. You'd also need two AA/AAA batteries to get the same voltage as the single CR123, reducing the utility of "lower profile".
Excellent!
Thanx Bill good work 😁👍
They could redesign this and have a long threaded screw that runs from the side to hold the locking pins in place. This would be shielded from attack by the outer casing. You could also run some left to right and some right to left so a thief wouldn't be sure which side to attack.
Just thread the outsides of the locking pins, and screw them in directly into the metal body. As long as the ball bearings are in place, you can't rotate those pins, so you cant unscrew them even if the hole goes right through
Bill makes a 20 min video about a lock that probably has issues and some successes. Now he makes a 6 min video (yes I can round but I'm not doing so well here). This interests me. Mainly cause of the title and that he has a had a few more days or community feedback of what does or doesnt work.
Meaning if this is a collaboration with people, that is what is interesting. (if you couldnt guess, I have yet to play either of his videos on this topic, just first impressions)
2 minutes in: laughing my head off. THANK YOU BILL! FUCK I LOVE YOU. (I mean in a non homo way though I am gay)
That is the portable model, they also make a mounted version. Does the mounted version have the same issue?
@@rickyhall7514 i suspect you might be able to feel the holes under the rubber?
Nope, you can't feel the screws, but you can pry it up enough, with a knife, to see the screws (without damaging the lock). My HD was out of the wall mounted version though.
Whelp, my Home Depot finally got the mounted version in, and it does have the same problem!
If remember correctly, there should be a lock tight glue that would have prevented this from happening. I am not 100% confident about the color but I think it was green. That stuff is usually used to secure pulleys on axes in a nonremoveable way. When used in the right way you will rather break of the head than remove the screw. So this might be a good way to recover from this faulty design.
If you break off the head you've still gotten into the lockbox.
If I owed that lock I think I would put some security screws inane then cover the screws with some JB Weld. The strength of JB weld is very impressive Project Farm tests a lot of engine stuff, and he made a piston head out of JB weld and ran the engine, and it held up to the pressure of a piston hitting it, so It can handle reinforcing them screws.
master lock did use glue and lock tight, it shows you that they care and used the bare minimum amount necessary to prevent tampering and the screws falling out during shipping/normal use.
_...used the bare minimum amount necessary to prevent tampering..._
They did not use the necessary amount ,they used less than the necessary minimum and that is an issue.
It took him seconds.
Seconds.
That's not caring. Heck, I wonder if that's not even just overflow from the glue used to hold down the rubber cover plate.
@@ethelryan257
they used lock tight on the screws and glue or something else on top of the screw to prevent tampering. it took seconds because he stripped the screw on the last unit. not that it would stop a person with determination. he wanted to do it properly from the start now that he had experience on that lock.
There are special "shear bolts" that are used for car ignition lock cylinders. Remove the 2 Phillips screws and insert 2 shear bolts. Once they have been tightened down, the head breaks off... I.E. no head to grip, would have to be drilled out.
Thanks for the followup!
I am very sad that you bought this silly lock twice! 😫
Thank you for the update.
To defeat the glue placed into the screw heads without hitting them and making noise...simply heat the tip of the screwdriver with an ordinary lighter and insert into screw. Quick and quiet access.
Does the 5441 model also have the two screws behind the cover?
Seems to me there's a REALLY easy fix for MasterLock... Link the two locking bars with a metal plate between them, secured by the small screw on the inside of the lid, so you can't separate the bars from the lid nearly ad easily, even if you remove the retaining screws...😅
Remove each screw, use loctite bearing retaining compound (green) on threads. Replace screws. They’ll never come out.
It will if you heat the screwdriver tip red hot.
@@goodnough1 That goes for every Loctite glue. But that will take some time.
drill the head off. sorted :)
@@amojak drill it again ,open!
How did those screws make it past the prototype stage? I mean it would be so simple to have blind tapped holes on the inside and just screw in threaded posts from the inside.
Question: Have you actually checked if you get a notification? Because as I recall the lock does have an open/close sensor at the bottom. And I would 100% use that if I where to program the lock. Could of course be laziness on masterlocks part. Just being curious
I think the lock feedbacks to the app when opened or closed, as the app shows a lock open or close. Question is: Does it report "open" when opened NOT the usual way (by app or code)?
@@HSishi And does it simply go: "I have received a opening command, therefore I have been opened" or does it go the extra step to check if the door is open? Maybe even wonder why the door isn't closed anymore even thought it is still locked....
100% sure.
Great ! Do you know if the updated version still suffers the same issue ?
The best solution to proven up that lock? Don’t by this lock😎
Frickin hillarious🤣
Is there a lockbox that you DO recommend?? I need one so if I fall someone I call can get in.