Only thing I can think of here is that generally cathedral port heads have better exhaust flow bench numbers than rec ports. I may be wrong but at least from my very limited experience, gen3 square port cams usually have more exhaust duration than rec ports possibly because of this. I would imagine that running an ls3 cam might hurt the cathedral port #s slightly but I haven't mocked up an example in dynomation to see. I could be totally off base here though. I do love all Gen3/4 hardware equally :D. An example of a custom ultra 4 race cam I'm running on a cathedral port motor. in 279 ex 282 .05 in 229 ex 230 lift in .615 ex 605 lobe 113
the reason for the "desired" duration spread on the rec-port head is not because of reduced exhaust flow, but rather dramatically increased intake flow (relative to cath ports)
@@richardholdener1727 Yeah, rec ports flow substanically more inatke, but exhaust numbers stay relatively close. Part of the reason good porters of rec port heads spend more time maximising exhaust numbers while only doing a mild port on the intake side. GM does this on their cnc ported versions of the LS3/9 head.
What I notice in that last overlay is how rec port power hasn't nosed over yet. So if you're looking for max effort high rpm horsepower at least on this bore size rec port is the way to go.
Consistent gains all the way through! That is exactly what i wanted to hear! After the years of watching the stock ly6 head get beat down by the trick flow cathedral port, this is the moment us rec port guys have been waiting for. This feels good, kind of relieving. Think I need to enjoy a cigarette, kind of relieving. Lol
16 hp is enough to gain a interest. At that level, and also with more development. This was a very useful demo. I often wondered what the two heads had in difference.
Well it's obviously gonna hold out further too the cathedral is nose diving and the last test may not have even found peak at 7500...looks like it will flat line ( not nose over ) till 8000rpm...so then stall and gear much quicker...
Hey Richard, great job again. Here in Aus though if you are caught street racing they impound your car. So we can only use this stuff on the race track. What it does show is that there is more powder under 3500 RPMs and that is where we all live day to day. So the original equipment ain't to bad?
The “Key” to the results is the 427 CID can use the 255cc port volume. If you run the same test under 400 CID the results should be the opposite. It would be good data to actually validate at what CID the larger volume Rec heads are the better choice.
Impressive test as always, Richard. But you know my misguided mindset is skewed towards alloy Cleveland 3-V flow monsters. Or for something more affordable like my Endyn high port cast iron beauties from the Glory Days of Ford Pro Stock domination. No cathedral port necessary 🤷♂️. Just the old school Cleveland winning port configuration of yesterday with a set of cathedral port GM heads for the cute factor 😅. You do still have a sense of humor I hope, Mr. Holdner 🙀🤷♂️.
So cfm demand of that 427 at 7300rpm is 380cfm, both of those heads at 618 lift had already given everything they had, it does show that those manifolds work well in not choking the heads 👍
the TFS 255 LS3 head flow more at .700 lift (380 cfm), but are very comparable at 600 lift 353 (245) vs 363 (255). since this cam was only 618 lift, it did not take full advantage of the ls3 head flow
Excuse randomness... On the topic of spool speed in your previous vid... Using remotely mounted injector, much the same connection as back pressure sensor, you can inject fuel into your turbo hot side. Ferrari played with this concept on the 488. (Not sure if they implemented) its way more efficient than two-step, as it doesn't heat the valves. Richard could do this on the dyno pretty easy. Maybe diesel injector is better? Obviously its little more technical than that, but its something along those lines. What you think?
Richard you guys should do a viewer shootout for heads, guys that have ported at home or have a “guy” that’s the best etc… I’ve got an interesting set of BPE LS3 Heads CNC Ported that my machine shop guy fitted 2.20 titanium intake valves, I’d like to pit them against some ls7 heads.
I don't think the cam favoured one head over the other. They were close. The TFS 245 and 255 is essentially the same head with different intake ports. 706 vs 716 hp is not that huge at the end of the day. The guy winning at the track with those differences, is the guy who has the better RT or has a better setup. In short, if someone already has a nice cath intake etc. but wants more from aftermarket heads, just get the 245's rather than changing a ton of stuff to get rec port heads. Would I do this? Nope. I'd move straight on to a pair of BR7 heads.
would a test on this motor between the TSP sr3/sr7/sr1 intake vs the trinity/equalizer intakes would be interesting. same goes with a set of ported factory ls7 heads and or aftermarket casting ls7's with larger intake valves *2.250*.... but thats alot of money to be budgeting these tests LOL
I guess its a decent power gain to go from stock heads to these but i don't know if its worth the cost. It's about $4k for a set in CAD$ and if i spend $2k-$3k more i can go lsa supercharger kit for my G8 which has the 821 or 823 heads cant remember. Not sure how it stacks up to 799 but i guess similar in power.
I have a LQ4 with 1 7/8 Long Tube headers and 5364 Heads and I have a BTR Truck Cam going in soon!! Is there anything I can do to get more out of these heads and is this a good combo!! Bought it as it is minus the headers!! Looking for low end torque!! Thanks
@@richardholdener1727 They don’t come on 6.0 L and I did some research on them and they said it was an LS3 head but I’ve never heard of them so was hoping you could tell me more information about them? Pros and cons?
Wish this was done also with actual LS7 heads in similar aftermarket trim... Considering, I have the BTR v2 Stage 4 LS7 cam with an LS7 Holley Hi Ram in my 67 Camaro on a 4.125x4.00 B/S at around 11.2 to 1...yea that cam at 111 LSA with .662 lift sounds nasty in the old gurl...pulls incredibly high as well.... 246/26X, .662"/.662", 111 LSA for the BTR V2 stage 4 and im guessing a lot of exhaust split on it as well...my combo liked it over the old stage 3 usimg Brodix BR7 heads....
@@richardholdener1727 Honesty I'm super stoked at the trade offs of the LS7 head entry angle/valve angle and size on this same combo...Id guess ( based on mine ) it has a little less down low and pulls a little harder up top..extended peak tq ( less fall off after ) and peak HP..... Obviously I have a dog in this hunt but I accept being wrong lol
Why? Look at the flow numbers and size. They are essentially the same head. Now throw a set of hand ported BR7 300 CNC on that thing, and it will probably be more in line with what you thought would happen. That said, looking at the cam, it is probably pretty well maxed out. My take on it is that the cam should have had some proper lift. It's a 55 mm cam. .680-725 lift would be nice.
I'm doing a 12.5:1 408 nitrous stroker with a similar specd cam. 252 274 114lsa. I was hoping it would make 700hp to the motor. This is making me think not
This just makes me wonder what my home ported square ports with 5 angle valve job are doing in me 12:1 6 liter. I just don’t see it not breaking 600 FWHP, but by how much? Lol
If you have a cam over 240°@.050, decent size headers and a good intake then you shud be nudging past 600 horse. By nudging, i mean probably nothing over 610 if you arent turning 7500. RPM is your limiting factor for sure.
I'm not sure what real engine you have here. Is it a 427 "stroker" or is it a true 427? 4" x 4.125". There will be a significant difference in power between the two. There's a reason why true LS7 427s make 650+ rwhp vs LS3 strokers make 600ish on a good day. If these numbers are with a 4.125 bore, something isn't right somewhere.
@@richardholdener1727 a 25hp difference n/a is a 50hp difference at 15psi and a 75hp difference at 30psi. 20-30psi is kinda the norm for ls stuff so....
Cath heads are going to work better below 5,000 with more low-end torque, while the rec port heads move more air, which means more power in the upper RPM range. Same short block, but you will get more RPM and more horsepower for racing applications with the Rec port. Cath for street use & towing, Rec port for racing applications. Each serves its own purpose.
You continue to kick ass, Richard. Thanks for all the hard work!
He sure does. I had no idea who he was (MM&FF).
been doing this for a minute or two
Richard,.....You are the best content on the internet. Thank you for your time, and focused effort.
Appreciated
Only thing I can think of here is that generally cathedral port heads have better exhaust flow bench numbers than rec ports. I may be wrong but at least from my very limited experience, gen3 square port cams usually have more exhaust duration than rec ports possibly because of this. I would imagine that running an ls3 cam might hurt the cathedral port #s slightly but I haven't mocked up an example in dynomation to see. I could be totally off base here though. I do love all Gen3/4 hardware equally :D. An example of a custom ultra 4 race cam I'm running on a cathedral port motor.
in 279 ex 282
.05 in 229 ex 230
lift in .615 ex 605
lobe 113
the reason for the "desired" duration spread on the rec-port head is not because of reduced exhaust flow, but rather dramatically increased intake flow (relative to cath ports)
@@richardholdener1727 Yeah, rec ports flow substanically more inatke, but exhaust numbers stay relatively close. Part of the reason good porters of rec port heads spend more time maximising exhaust numbers while only doing a mild port on the intake side. GM does this on their cnc ported versions of the LS3/9 head.
Really loving the last few days of testing!
Next test is TFS 255s vs TFS 260s. Great series with the 427, thanks Richard & BTR!
I second this @richardholdener there is a trinity intake for the LS7 port, too!
RH. I have grown to find your channel has rich content and a place to gain insight. Thanks for all the hard work you put into i.
thnx for watching
What I notice in that last overlay is how rec port power hasn't nosed over yet. So if you're looking for max effort high rpm horsepower at least on this bore size rec port is the way to go.
Correct. Cath for street use & towing, Rec port for racing applications. Each serves its own purpose.
Yea that would like an 8000rpm shift and work you way back from that info with gear n stall and you have a quicker car...
Wow, rec port with same chamber volume outflows cath port everywhere, just like i said.
Consistent gains all the way through! That is exactly what i wanted to hear! After the years of watching the stock ly6 head get beat down by the trick flow cathedral port, this is the moment us rec port guys have been waiting for. This feels good, kind of relieving. Think I need to enjoy a cigarette, kind of relieving. Lol
Great vid! Rec port or Cathedral port? One thing this vid confirms for me why I'm a TFS fan and anything that Brian Tooley touches.
Boy that trinity I take is just impressive. Thanks for sharing
Hi, thanks for all the hard work test to give us these numbers. What formula do
you use for sizing your injectors?
for an NA V8-its injector flow in lbs/hr x 16 (50 pound injectors will support 800 NA hp-50 x16=800)
16 hp is enough to gain a interest. At that level, and also with more development.
This was a very useful demo. I often wondered what the two heads had in difference.
Well it's obviously gonna hold out further too the cathedral is nose diving and the last test may not have even found peak at 7500...looks like it will flat line ( not nose over ) till 8000rpm...so then stall and gear much quicker...
Hey Richard, great job again. Here in Aus though if you are caught street racing they impound your car. So we can only use this stuff on the race track. What it does show is that there is more powder under 3500 RPMs and that is where we all live day to day. So the original equipment ain't to bad?
this combo is not a good source for sub 3500 rpm power
there wasnt a “waaaah” in the video, 🥺. still a great video as usual from our LS guru Richard. thank you for spreading your knowledge!
the world needs more waaaaa!
The “Key” to the results is the 427 CID can use the 255cc port volume. If you run the same test under 400 CID the results should be the opposite.
It would be good data to actually validate at what CID the larger volume Rec heads are the better choice.
it's more than just displacement, but the 700-hp 427 was much better suited to the higher flowing rec ports
Almost certain SAM and BES used big heads for the cid to win the emc challenge.
the CSA , intake runner, cam timing, it all comes into play.
Impressive test as always, Richard. But you know my misguided mindset is skewed towards alloy Cleveland 3-V flow monsters.
Or for something more affordable like my Endyn high port cast iron beauties from the Glory Days of Ford Pro Stock domination. No cathedral port necessary 🤷♂️. Just the old school Cleveland winning port configuration of yesterday with a set of cathedral port GM heads for the cute factor 😅.
You do still have a sense of humor I hope, Mr. Holdner 🙀🤷♂️.
I have run 3V heads in the past
Great comparison..! Short and to the point, thanks..
So cfm demand of that 427 at 7300rpm is 380cfm, both of those heads at 618 lift had already given everything they had, it does show that those manifolds work well in not choking the heads 👍
you need to see more test data
@@richardholdener1727 to determine what exactly?
😢
Just saw this. Richard is the King of Thorough.
Richard, great test. What were the flow numbers on the the two heads?
the TFS 255 LS3 head flow more at .700 lift (380 cfm), but are very comparable at 600 lift 353 (245) vs 363 (255). since this cam was only 618 lift, it did not take full advantage of the ls3 head flow
Excuse randomness...
On the topic of spool speed in your previous vid...
Using remotely mounted injector, much the same connection as back pressure sensor, you can inject fuel into your turbo hot side. Ferrari played with this concept on the 488. (Not sure if they implemented) its way more efficient than two-step, as it doesn't heat the valves.
Richard could do this on the dyno pretty easy. Maybe diesel injector is better? Obviously its little more technical than that, but its something along those lines. What you think?
that test would be better on a chassis dyno or the street
Great vid! Maybe I missed it but what was the compression and fuel used?
E85
Great video thanks for the data!
Very cool test!
I'm curious how the TFS 260 LS7 head would compare. If only we had an unlimited budget for testing lol
BTR RAN LS7 HEADS ON THIS MOTOR TOO
@@richardholdener1727 oh baby does that mean there's a video coming?!?!
Richard you guys should do a viewer shootout for heads, guys that have ported at home or have a “guy” that’s the best etc… I’ve got an interesting set of BPE LS3 Heads CNC Ported that my machine shop guy fitted 2.20 titanium intake valves, I’d like to pit them against some ls7 heads.
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
I don't think the cam favoured one head over the other. They were close. The TFS 245 and 255 is essentially the same head with different intake ports. 706 vs 716 hp is not that huge at the end of the day. The guy winning at the track with those differences, is the guy who has the better RT or has a better setup. In short, if someone already has a nice cath intake etc. but wants more from aftermarket heads, just get the 245's rather than changing a ton of stuff to get rec port heads. Would I do this? Nope. I'd move straight on to a pair of BR7 heads.
would a test on this motor between the TSP sr3/sr7/sr1 intake vs the trinity/equalizer intakes would be interesting. same goes with a set of ported factory ls7 heads and or aftermarket casting ls7's with larger intake valves *2.250*.... but thats alot of money to be budgeting these tests LOL
I guess its a decent power gain to go from stock heads to these but i don't know if its worth the cost. It's about $4k for a set in CAD$ and if i spend $2k-$3k more i can go lsa supercharger kit for my G8 which has the 821 or 823 heads cant remember. Not sure how it stacks up to 799 but i guess similar in power.
use your heads and get the blower
Ugh, I don’t know, maybe test a solid roller with .800 lift and 260 degrees of duration at .050? It’s a big motor with big heads.
I have a LQ4 with 1 7/8 Long Tube headers and 5364 Heads and I have a BTR Truck Cam going in soon!! Is there anything I can do to get more out of these heads and is this a good combo!! Bought it as it is minus the headers!! Looking for low end torque!! Thanks
I'm not familiar with 5364 heads-are they the iron heads on the 1999-2000 6.0Ls?
@@richardholdener1727 They don’t come on 6.0 L and I did some research on them and they said it was an LS3 head but I’ve never heard of them so was hoping you could tell me more information about them? Pros and cons?
I would love to see what the big dog CID intake with an elbow would do to that setup and compare
me too
@@richardholdener1727 really enjoy the content you do Richard. Been watching for many years.. Thank you
hot setup
Rec port for the win!!!!
Really? The spread port ovals disagree....
@AB-80X ha. love it. bench racing is almost as much as actual racing.
The rec port should make more due to the cross section of the port.
When will you declare that every port is an intake port?
except exhaust ports
Wish this was done also with actual LS7 heads in similar aftermarket trim...
Considering, I have the BTR v2 Stage 4 LS7 cam with an LS7 Holley Hi Ram in my 67 Camaro on a 4.125x4.00 B/S at around 11.2 to 1...yea that cam at 111 LSA with .662 lift sounds nasty in the old gurl...pulls incredibly high as well....
246/26X, .662"/.662", 111 LSA for the BTR V2 stage 4 and im guessing a lot of exhaust split on it as well...my combo liked it over the old stage 3 usimg Brodix BR7 heads....
the motor was also run with ls7 heads and lots of intakes
@@richardholdener1727 nice can't wait!!!! Thx
@@richardholdener1727 Honesty I'm super stoked at the trade offs of the LS7 head entry angle/valve angle and size on this same combo...Id guess ( based on mine ) it has a little less down low and pulls a little harder up top..extended peak tq ( less fall off after ) and peak HP.....
Obviously I have a dog in this hunt but I accept being wrong lol
I wish you would have compared both intakes to the LS3 intake at least on the rec port as a baseline.
It was done a couple days ago
look at the previous 3-4 videos
We're talking about a 2% gain in power. Practically negligible. Surprising, I would have expected rec port heads to blow away cathedral ports.
Why? Look at the flow numbers and size. They are essentially the same head. Now throw a set of hand ported BR7 300 CNC on that thing, and it will probably be more in line with what you thought would happen. That said, looking at the cam, it is probably pretty well maxed out. My take on it is that the cam should have had some proper lift. It's a 55 mm cam. .680-725 lift would be nice.
Rock on! 🐰
I'm doing a 12.5:1 408 nitrous stroker with a similar specd cam. 252 274 114lsa. I was hoping it would make 700hp to the motor. This is making me think not
with what intake?
@@richardholdener1727 I was leaning towards the holley split intake 4500 with accufab 4500 throttle body....what do you think?
see the ls3 intake test-I ran 4150 and 4500 versions of single plane intakes-4500 was better
When are you moving to Kentucky? :)
nope-but lots of good friends to visit
I figured a rect port head would make more power but man that's not as much as I thought.
Be cool to see some ls7 heads....on the ls7
those were run too
@@richardholdener1727 sweet ...can't wait to see those results
Alright, I'm a minute in . Rectangle, up 20 .
This just makes me wonder what my home ported square ports with 5 angle valve job are doing in me 12:1 6 liter. I just don’t see it not breaking 600 FWHP, but by how much? Lol
Those tfs are running the table
If you have a cam over 240°@.050, decent size headers and a good intake then you shud be nudging past 600 horse. By nudging, i mean probably nothing over 610 if you arent turning 7500. RPM is your limiting factor for sure.
@@rustysausage69 yup, it turns 7500. Might turn it to 7700 once at the track to see if that’s what it likes.
@@ZONES89RS Thats ddefinitely enough cylinder head and RPM to make well over 600. hellyea
@@rustysausage69 yessir. I went in on a mission to make or break 600 on piss 93 lol. The full size truck gets it lol
What would a Cid intake do on this ls3 head combination?
He have to get one. He mentioned that intake in his live feed yesterday
First golden thump 👍
I'm not sure what real engine you have here. Is it a 427 "stroker" or is it a true 427? 4" x 4.125". There will be a significant difference in power between the two. There's a reason why true LS7 427s make 650+ rwhp vs LS3 strokers make 600ish on a good day. If these numbers are with a 4.125 bore, something isn't right somewhere.
this was an LS7 short block with TFS 255 LS5 heads on it (650+ rwhp...that would be the exception and not the rule)
not a whole lot of difference......I am betting the rec ports will really pull away under boost.
THAT WON'T HAPPEN-SMALL GAINS WOULD JUST BE MULTIPLED
@@richardholdener1727 a 25hp difference n/a is a 50hp difference at 15psi and a 75hp difference at 30psi.
20-30psi is kinda the norm for ls stuff so....
there was never a 25 hp gain-there was 10 hp
Hi Richard from Australia love ya work. Peace
yo aussies
lots of time spent in tooley time zone?
I had a long visit after running the GLHS at SDAC
@@richardholdener1727 i f i could spend five minutes with brian tooley it would be a dream come true
HE IS GOOD PEOPLE
245 and 255, go by price, if it's like $50+ more then not worth it.
Not with this cam. But what happens if you put some proper lift in with the same duration?
It's a cam! Lol
Cath heads are going to work better below 5,000 with more low-end torque, while the rec port heads move more air, which means more power in the upper RPM range. Same short block, but you will get more RPM and more horsepower for racing applications with the Rec port.
Cath for street use & towing, Rec port for racing applications. Each serves its own purpose.
on this motor-the cath port heads didn't make more below 5000 rpm