Brilliant idea and implemented perfectly for the smart-phone era! I remember in the early 2000s I worked at a small internet company and stunned one of my colleagues (who was well versed in IT, but not radio). I installed an early piece of PSK31 software on both of our PCs (which were several meters away in a fairly noisy office environment, and had 90s style PC speakers and electret "stalk" microphones). I told him to go ahead and unplug the ethernet cable from his computer which he did. After a few warbling sounds from my PC, messages from me started appearing on his screen as I typed. He was dumbfounded at first and then quite impressed once he worked out what was happening :D I'm impressed that the RUclips MPEG audio compression didn't affect the reception of the Rattlegram whatsoever! Merry Christmas & a happy New Year to Andreas, Ahmet and all the viewers!
@@HB9BLA the reason why it didn’t work on DMR I suspect might be because the compression protocols there are optimised for voice readability and are much more aggressive than e.g. mpeg is even at lower bit rates. The goal of mpeg as used in YT et c. is to reconstruct as much as possible of the in-spectrum at the output without voice optimisation (I wouldn’t be surprised if other voice codecs would similarly destroy the message).
Thanks for the wishes! And my Rattlegram was listening while you sent your demo at 0:08 and I received "HB9BLA - The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" and "HB9BLA - Decoding failed"... 😂😂😂 73!
@@HB9BLA Ahmet has Angel backers in the Ham community. They will be at the Ham cation in Florida. It's all very interesting and used in the VHF and above the potential seems amazing!
Not first, but message is "Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and a happy New Year". Took about a dozen tries to get volume levels and positioning correct. Very interested in a future series on GNU Radio! Merry Christmas to you as well!
.... "Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and happy New Year." This app is great, and since I am someone who was in 8 bit computing from 1980, girl now woman who loved to code on 6510, and Z80, and still love it, from machine language, assembler to high end languages, also woman who was playing a lot with HAM radio, took serious part in radio clubs ar that time, I know how beautiful was time when we were recording our data on the tapes. I can say that Era when AD and DA start becoming daily routine was magical time. Now we are mostly only D, D, D... but analogue can't disappear just like that
Very rare to read a comment from a woman on this channel with 99.5 male viewers! So we experienced similar things in the 1980. For me, still everything is analog in the end, but simplifying it with a digital model and throwing millions of cheap and small transistors on it gives great possibilities (as we see here). I feel I currently live in an electronics "land of milk and honey".
@@HB9BLA Dear, I don't think it is rare, only women are mostly pushed to the side, usually when they are young. There are many women scientist, electronics experts, and hackers. When you open up your male boxes and egos, you will see it is actually a lot.
@@TheAndjelika First: I would be extremely glad to see more women in our domain. All I saw were excellent. And I first thought that this was a Swiss problem. But my main (electronics) channel with 400'000 subscribers always had around 99% male viewers (according to RUclips statistics). So I thought it was a global fact. In which country do you live? BTW: My RUclips relationship manager told me that my channel has a higher male percentage than gaming channels (which are also bad in this respect).
@@HB9BLA Dear, they support girls, your daughters, granddaughters, don't buy them some dolls, get them tools, show them how to solder. I need to be honest with you, like year ago I was about to fully leave your channel because of a few sentences you've said... they were on edge of sexism, showing that only men are welcome here, and women should be somewhere else. One of the first steps is to develop sensibility and really invite all people to watch your channel, and to promote that in every moment you can. Happy holidays! Andjela
@@TheAndjelika jajajjaa 50/50 my ass, so funny to see you try to debunk the 99.5% statistics of male viewers found in RUclips studio for channel owners jajajajjaa feminism is gay
I have fond memories of programming games found in magazines into my first computer (the TI99) and saving and loading the programs using audio cassettes, so this seems like a modern evolution of that early 80’s tech... no doubt it was incredibly low bps, but it was surprisingly reliable despite the cheapness of the generic portable audio cassette recorder. I like how the error correction is built in, the same kind of thing was present on usenet for large files broken into multiple parts that would often have most but not always all the pieces, you were able to re-create a missing file or two from the other files as long as there was enough and this worked quite reliably to collect a bunch of cracked Dreamcast GD-ROM games from that old forgotten but not totally abandoned part of the early internet.
I also started with a TRS-80 and a cassette deck. But frankly, after the invention of the Floppy Disk, never looked back ;-) A lot of technology comes back in "new clothes" after years, I think. Like the electric cars ;-)
Some first generation computer modems had a cradle in which you placed your landline phone's handset -- so it was acoustic coupling between phone and modem.
I was fixing to say that but you beat me to it. Rattle gram is awesome. I want to build a server on a R pi on my repeater. I like having a bulletin board like that. Awesome stuff friend.
Very interesting and thank you. I was looking at using codec2 over lora a while ago but got distracted. This beautifully clear explanation of ofdm has inspired me. I think I'll revisit it.
Thank you for your kind words. I started with a course in modern communication. As said in the video, this topic is not easy for me. I did this kind of math 40 years ago.
Good morning sir your both youtube channel are very good and informative,,,, and it helps us lots,,,,,,,i again thanks to you for making these channels,,,,,,,, very few people do this,,,,,,,,, with ❤️,,,,,,,
Andreas, I think this is a great idea but I don't have any suggestions. I will definitely follow this so I can use it at my cabin in the mountains. Thank you for your service to our hobby for so many years. Jeff
At first I thought you were trolling us, because my first few attempts correctly decoded your callsign but gave "Decoding failed" as the message (as if that's what had been transmitted - the app could use some user interface improvements). Sticking the phone closer to my headphone cup finally got a successful decode, though! Very cool app, and I hope to see future improvements in this kind of easily accessible use of high-tech encoding. It's sad to me that there's seemingly a big divide in the amateur radio community where a majority of the hobby is "caught in the past" and unwilling or uninterested in combining the extremely capable modern encoding schemes and digital processing tools we have available with the very powerful and useful transmitters and frequency bands that hams have access to. There's all kinds of cool things you could do with encoding modes like this on HF for example, but every time I search for projects doing this kind of thing, I always end up at abortive or abandoned attempts that never really took off (with a few limited exceptions). Too many hams are satisfied with either their simple old SSB and FM audio modes, or happy to rely on weird proprietary clunky windows applications made 15 years ago that are awkward to interact with or don't run on many types of systems. This is not to say those modes don't have a place, but amateur radio was originally created to allow experimentation and development of this newfangled "radio" technology, and in many ways the community is reluctant to advance much past the 1950s. Modern open-source design methods seem like a perfect match for the sharing-friendly and experimental ethos of amateur radio, but somehow the two are rarely enthusiastically used together.
The preamble symbol in COFDMTV, that contains the call sign, is designed to be much more robust than the payload symbols, so we have a high probability to find out who is transmitting. Indeed, the UI needs improvement with the handling of errors. Thank you for the feedback.
In the board of the Swiss HAM Radio organization, I am responsible for modern technologies (all invented after 1980). After a short time, I decided not to care about the ones not interested. They love their hobby and are happy with it. I focus on the ones interested in this tech. This is part of the motivation to create this channel.
Lots of FT8 transmissions in the air means that there are enough interested people. Also WSJT-X is open source. This is enough for me to not be worried too much.
You are welcome! Thank you for your distribution! Maybe you send me an email or a Facebook messenger message? I would like to use your project for my future SDR projects.
Frequency is only one of parameters which defines message capacity. Another two are power and time. If you have very loud signal, you can put more data into it. However at some point sound turns into shockwave, so there is a limit here too, sadly. But looks like time is unlimited.
Hi. I have built something similar to Rattlegram and achieved 250 characters/sec speed on Aspera V-9. I have made some patch wires using off-the-shelf wires for headsets of WTs & phones to avoid the mixing of ambient noise or disturbance. Due this I was able to achieve a proper audio. However the audio frequency ranges of different WTs requires certain changes in the app's code and trial and error on volume of reception on listening side
Coincidentally, a few days ago I found a website showing how to send images captured by an ESP-32CAM through SSTV using these radios. SSTV transmission seems very interesting. Thank you for your videos and best wishes for 2023!
David Rowe developed the Fdmdv modem for use with his CODEC2 voice codec. That modem seems very similar to the one presented here. Unfortunately that modem is deeply embedded in the freedv application. I haven't seen it being used for non-voice data.
DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale) uses OFDM with QAM modulation of the sub carriers. There is an amateur radio version of DRM using open source software on a PC
The equations for the DFT are for the continuous time domain, not the discrete time domain as would be used in an OFDM modulator/demodulator. Some carriers are also designated as pilots with fixed magnitude and phase for equalization and timing recovery, therefore not all carriers can be utilized for data.
I found it worked very well through my laptop speakers - though I could get 'decoding failed' by moving the phone further away than about 2m... but it always seemed to know the sender was HB9BLA - so I wonder if there is additional error correction for the sender id? though I'm not the first "Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas :christmas_tree: :snowman: and a happy New Year" Congratulations to Ahmet on a successful implementation and coming up with a very catch name for it.
The preamble symbol in COFDMTV, that contains the call sign, is designed to be much more robust than the payload symbols, so we have a high probability to find out who is transmitting. Compliments are always welcome and motivating.
Hello Andreas, thank you for the excellent explanation. Installed the App, set my Callsign and it worked right out of the box: 2 x the jumping brown fox and the Christmas wishes which are returned from the Black Forrest to CH. Viele Grüße
I re watched your video as I start on a new project. Ham radio applications for OFDM include the VARA and some versions of ARDOP as used by Winlink. VARA in particular is robust in very difficult conditions, but it is proprietary system..
Very interesting. I'd love to make a couple of dedicated devices using a pair of cheap BF888's and attached directly to a USB sound card just as done with use of Allstar nodes. We could take care of pressing ptt and reduce audible noise in that case. 73.
Downloaded from play store. Input my call. Entered message and transmitted. Very interesting. Collins radio used sync cohesrant ofdm in their kineplex system back in the 50's. Their adoption of coherent psk, qpsk dropped the necessary noise floor 10's of dB. Isn't it a great world we live in. Thanks so much for the presentations you do. I'm just now picking up the esp32 python hobby partially because of your wonderful videos..73. de Tom W5XTT
That is extremely intertesting topic. I tried to do something similar actually.. Didn't finish it, but it seems like an awesome opportunity to start again :)
@@HB9BLA Very nice. I did teletype work as a young man; speed there about 10x Morse. Morse strictly by amateur radio. TTY machine was limited to 100 WPM if I remember this right.
Sometimes I miss the old days of just AM. It is nice to talk on. With digital transmissions though, AM just doesn't cut it. For digital, I do like OFDM, but for analogue voice, I like the old fashioned AM.
Forward (typo). At RF, COFDM is not a cure-all it does have the Peak-to-Average power issue requiring highly linear, inefficient, and complex RF amplifiers. Whereas, GSM uses GMSK and tolerates non-linear efficient simple Class-C amplifiers.
I've tried implementing this… lack of access to the full I and Q means you either have to use FSK (slow), or synchronise the phase before every transmission if you want OFDM . I'm going to check this out!
i like the bit where you said "they" call a FT an "Inverse function of the IFT" :D not sure which "they" do that but i always just called the inverse of the inverse of a thing that thing :P joke aside great video though, learned a lot :)
If you use cell phones to transmit and pre-shared encryption keys for the data, it becomes extremely difficult to censor, something we need in this age. I had thought of using a central server so that a group of friends could send and receive secret messages over cell phones. No not Signal, that uses the internet. Talking about voice calls just like in the video, over cell calls, not ham radio.
@@HB9BLA prelookuptable or precalcul array could "help a lot to solve" compute problems with ram available on new µc remember what demomakers was beable to do with limited ressources 20 yeas ago !
Excellent video. Thanks! I'm assuming this would work between two Baofengs with K2 cables to thier respective phones. I'd expect this to improve reliability, yes?
@@HB9BLA Tried this and it worked. Here is the setup: HT setup (both HTs) HT model: Frequency: Wide (25 KHz) Power : Low (HTs at opposite end of 12' room) Vox: On, level 3/4 out of 7. (One level on each HT. 7 is most sensitive). Squelch: 1 (Zero is open squelch). Volume: 1/4 turn from off. Dual watch: off Receive power save: off.
Cable setup Baofeng standard cable (K1) and Baofeng APRS cable (K2).
Phone setup Phones: recent Motorola Androids. Volume: 3/4 or slightly less. Decoding does not work if transmitting phone's volume is too high.
Does anyone know if this method is similar or not to what the Trailblazer modems used back in the late 80s? I remember reading a description where it divided the bandwidth up into a hundred or so channels and did all the encoding/decoding in software.
@@jankkhvej I now read the story of Trailblazer PEP. Indeed, this was revolutionary back then. And they needed quite expensive chips for "just" a modem...
I've been doing this using a hellscrieber app on my iPhone to text my kid over gmrs. No cables, just phones using internal mic and speaker held near the transceiver. Works great, even on the edge of range thanks to hellscrieber doing no decoding/forward error correction or checks. Try it out... I bet you $100 that you'll be able to read msgs at further range using hellscrieber as opposed to rattlegram.
@@HB9BLA I find that hard to believe having watched many of your videos. Look up feld hell, and hellschreiber. I'm probably misspelling it, but you'll find it. It was invented around the cw days.
Andreas, I'm not sure where sufficiently complex modulations cross the line to become "encryption" which isn't legal in some countries. In the US we have prohibitions on encryption, and requirements for station Identification. It appears that published compression methods are OK in the US, so long as the intent is to compress.. but, at some point, with "sufficient" error detection, the amount of "compression" compared to "overhead" becomes a loosing battle. How should we handle clear text station ID? Thoughts?
There are many discussions about encryption because the law was created before modern protocols. What they wanted to forbit is to have secrets. So I assume we should be able to use modern protocols and share the keys somehow. Then it would no more be a secret and therefore legal. Anyway, we have to solve this problem in the next years.
My understanding of prohibition of cryptography on ham radio is to ensure that anyone can listen. So by all means encrypt the signal just make the key public and include callsigns and stay in band. Here in Australia encryption is allowed for the express use of control of a remote or space device as well.
I made similar software many years ago. At this moment it uses BPSK. One problem with OFDM that is not mentioned in this video is that with bad microphones and speakers it is possible to completely lose part of frequency range, which means that some subcarriers will be completely destroyed. That's why I decided not to use it. Without OFDM my program have problems with multipath propagation, yes, but 2-3kbit/s are still achievable even with lot more primitive modulation.
I agree. For me I agree that the frequency response of the channel is important. For me, this tool was just an introduction into OFDM. I do not think that microphones and loudspeakers are a good thing without humans...
Encryption is not allowed on amature bands but could you use ultrasound as as long as you use of the accepted and published modulation types just shift the frequency to inauable?
Not a new concept, this is how vintage computers like Commodore 64 stored programs, in 80' there were even some transmissions of programs in public radio
But this is just the audio signal, right? The RF signal is still FM (The RF carrier being frequency modulated by the OFDM audio? Or am i missing something about the radios in the demo? Is the radio doing something different than FM?
It sounds like it is using a concept called data over sound. This idea is being considered for IoT as an added layer of security. Two of the software schemes to implement this are called Chirp and Listen.
You might have one of those devices that has two microphones: one in the back near the camera and one at the bottom edge of the device. In that case you should play with the "Channel Select" setting in the "Decoder Settings" menu. Choose either "First" or "Second" and see if that helps. You can also select "Voice Recognition" and "Unprocessed" from the "Audio Source" setting to try and disable active noise cancellation.
What are the uses for this acoustic signal communication? How far can you communicate with it (with common equipment)? (I'm quite a foreigner to the world of ham radio)
It has no distance limit other than the limit of the communication gear you use. Typical VHF/UHF handhelds can bridge a few miles. If you use repeaters much more.
@@HB9BLA Oh, I thought it uses an acoustic signal, sound waves, and not radio waves. That's what was said in the video, and the transceivers were always close to each other. I thought the phone sent the message to the transceiver via Radio waves, and the transceiver made the sound, which was then received by the microphone of the other transceiver, and so on... Now I understand I got mixed up, and it is the smartphone which makes the sound, which is then transmitted by the radio (pretty much like normal operation). This makes much more sense now! 😁
TNX for this cool idea. Tried it out but just getting a "Decoding failed", the CALLSIGN is transmitted. Neither the sound from the YT Video decodes (same message: Decoding failed" and also tried between two Anytone Handhelds over 2m. Call Sign is set on both sides. The two phones decode perfectly if there are next to each other. Any ideas? (Rattlegram 1.4)
@@wbehmann Strange. Obviously, no setup issue because it worked together. Did you pay attention that the respective microphones and loudspeakers were together? Did you hear the sound on the second handheld loud and clear?
Thanks Andreas for this interesting OFDM demonstration. Unfortunately, I could not decode your message, got always "From HB9BLA1 Decoding failed". Previously, I entered my call and experimented with different audio sources. Anyway, great idea and well explained! 73 Stephan
Pretty interesting. If you were to send the sounds through a cable, could you use Rattlegram on HF? The mode does look very interesting. Greetings, Jeff
Hallo, gibt´s eine Handreichung zum Einrichten der App. Klar es gibt nicht viel was man Einrichten kann aber doch genug um aneinander vorbei zu Arbeiten. Sorry die Anfrage ist Deutsch verfasst aber sollte kein Problem sein denke ich.
Ich verstehe Deutsch. Ich habe die App vom Playstore installiert und mein Rufzeichen eingegeben. Sonst habe ich alles "Default" gelassen. Wenn du etwas änderst denke ich, dass es jeweils beim Sender und beim Empfänger gleich sein muss. Aber damit habe ich bis jetzt noch nicht gespielt.
The implications of what this app can do has many important features. So.... if the internet, mobile phone network are down for any reason, but our smartphones can start up. I could communicate a serious text through UHF or VHF transceiver, say at a specific prearranged time and frequency, with another person ... and they can type an answer on their phone and send it back.
@@HB9BLA Rattlegram would have really been able to help in the recent wild fires in Maui Hawaï. I live in Belgium and am a newbie ham (ON3VCF). Ispent that night up listening to the only SDR on the island going up and down the 10, 11, 2m and 70cm bands, listening to sporadic desperate transmissions of people trying to find people.... Normal FM was also down. But on 1110Khz am KAOI was on emergency programming trying to help. They were the only station I could find... (using also an app called "Planet Radio" For Several days I would tune into KAOI to listen in to the real people sharing real stories. One day a firefighter was talking about how all repeaters were out and that they'd had big difficulties getting through to base, etc. He mentioned about a new super-simple app called "Rattlegram" could have helped everyone. I have seen a few RUclips reviews of the app, and I don't think they understand its special characteristics and features. Specifically "Parrot".
مضاعفة تقسيم التردد المتعامد (Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing) وضع تعديل الإشارة في الاتصالات ، يعد تعدد الإرسال بتقسيم التردد المتعامد نوعًا من الإرسال الرقمي وطريقة لتشفير البيانات الرقمية على ترددات حاملات متعددة
I have a couple of questions if I may. I presume this will work if you use a k plug repeater connecting from the mobile phones 3.55mm jack? Also will this work where dcs is set on a channel? Thank you.
Hi !!! Greetings from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I bought two Baofeng Handies, the cheapest ones, the simplest ones, BF999S, how can I send data from DB9 to handy number 1, receive data on handy number 2, and decode it with arduino uno and RS232 module HW-044 ? , and show that data on a cheap OLED display like 1.3" (GND, VCC, SCL, SDA) Thanks so much !!!!!!!
Brilliant idea and implemented perfectly for the smart-phone era!
I remember in the early 2000s I worked at a small internet company and stunned one of my colleagues (who was well versed in IT, but not radio). I installed an early piece of PSK31 software on both of our PCs (which were several meters away in a fairly noisy office environment, and had 90s style PC speakers and electret "stalk" microphones). I told him to go ahead and unplug the ethernet cable from his computer which he did. After a few warbling sounds from my PC, messages from me started appearing on his screen as I typed. He was dumbfounded at first and then quite impressed once he worked out what was happening :D
I'm impressed that the RUclips MPEG audio compression didn't affect the reception of the Rattlegram whatsoever! Merry Christmas & a happy New Year to Andreas, Ahmet and all the viewers!
Nice story!
Indeed, I was also impressed that it worked on RUclips. We did tests with DMR and there it did not work at all.
@@HB9BLA the reason why it didn’t work on DMR I suspect might be because the compression protocols there are optimised for voice readability and are much more aggressive than e.g. mpeg is even at lower bit rates. The goal of mpeg as used in YT et c. is to reconstruct as much as possible of the in-spectrum at the output without voice optimisation (I wouldn’t be surprised if other voice codecs would similarly destroy the message).
Thanks for the wishes!
And my Rattlegram was listening while you sent your demo at 0:08 and I received "HB9BLA - The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" and "HB9BLA - Decoding failed"... 😂😂😂
73!
Very good!
A nice intro into the world of OFDM which is also used for our dvb-t & dvb-t2 standard & high-definition terrestrial TV broadcasts.
Indeed, Ahmet did also SSTV applications. So far I never looked into it.
@@HB9BLA I believe the Vesa HF digital mode for Winlink is also OFDM, but I could be wrong there.
@@HB9BLA Ahmet has Angel backers in the Ham community. They will be at the Ham cation in Florida. It's all very interesting and used in the VHF and above the potential seems amazing!
Not first, but message is "Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and a happy New Year". Took about a dozen tries to get volume levels and positioning correct. Very interested in a future series on GNU Radio! Merry Christmas to you as well!
Correct!
.... "Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and happy New Year."
This app is great, and since I am someone who was in 8 bit computing from 1980, girl now woman who loved to code on 6510, and Z80, and still love it, from machine language, assembler to high end languages, also woman who was playing a lot with HAM radio, took serious part in radio clubs ar that time, I know how beautiful was time when we were recording our data on the tapes. I can say that Era when AD and DA start becoming daily routine was magical time. Now we are mostly only D, D, D... but analogue can't disappear just like that
Very rare to read a comment from a woman on this channel with 99.5 male viewers! So we experienced similar things in the 1980. For me, still everything is analog in the end, but simplifying it with a digital model and throwing millions of cheap and small transistors on it gives great possibilities (as we see here). I feel I currently live in an electronics "land of milk and honey".
@@HB9BLA Dear, I don't think it is rare, only women are mostly pushed to the side, usually when they are young. There are many women scientist, electronics experts, and hackers. When you open up your male boxes and egos, you will see it is actually a lot.
@@TheAndjelika First: I would be extremely glad to see more women in our domain. All I saw were excellent. And I first thought that this was a Swiss problem. But my main (electronics) channel with 400'000 subscribers always had around 99% male viewers (according to RUclips statistics). So I thought it was a global fact. In which country do you live?
BTW: My RUclips relationship manager told me that my channel has a higher male percentage than gaming channels (which are also bad in this respect).
@@HB9BLA Dear, they support girls, your daughters, granddaughters, don't buy them some dolls, get them tools, show them how to solder. I need to be honest with you, like year ago I was about to fully leave your channel because of a few sentences you've said... they were on edge of sexism, showing that only men are welcome here, and women should be somewhere else. One of the first steps is to develop sensibility and really invite all people to watch your channel, and to promote that in every moment you can.
Happy holidays! Andjela
@@TheAndjelika jajajjaa 50/50 my ass, so funny to see you try to debunk the 99.5% statistics of male viewers found in RUclips studio for channel owners jajajajjaa feminism is gay
I have fond memories of programming games found in magazines into my first computer (the TI99) and saving and loading the programs using audio cassettes, so this seems like a modern evolution of that early 80’s tech... no doubt it was incredibly low bps, but it was surprisingly reliable despite the cheapness of the generic portable audio cassette recorder. I like how the error correction is built in, the same kind of thing was present on usenet for large files broken into multiple parts that would often have most but not always all the pieces, you were able to re-create a missing file or two from the other files as long as there was enough and this worked quite reliably to collect a bunch of cracked Dreamcast GD-ROM games from that old forgotten but not totally abandoned part of the early internet.
I also started with a TRS-80 and a cassette deck. But frankly, after the invention of the Floppy Disk, never looked back ;-)
A lot of technology comes back in "new clothes" after years, I think. Like the electric cars ;-)
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!
Great fun, _and_ educational! Before I finished watching I had loaded the app (Android Pixel6) and decoded your message (first try).
Cool. I wonder how many downloads he had today...
Some first generation computer modems had a cradle in which you placed your landline phone's handset -- so it was acoustic coupling between phone and modem.
I remember them, too. But they used simple modulations.
Message is "Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas🎄⛄ and a happy New Year" 🙂
Yes!
I was fixing to say that but you beat me to it. Rattle gram is awesome. I want to build a server on a R pi on my repeater. I like having a bulletin board like that. Awesome stuff friend.
Mt63 is OFDM mode which is widely used in e.g. prepping community for years. And yes, cable is not required for this mode too.
Thank you for the link. I did not know this protocol.
@@HB9BLA Q15X25 by the same author is also quite interesting.
1:24 "Decoding failed" 😅🔊
Have a great sunday, Andreas ;) Thanks for your content!
It seems you need to enter your Callsign first.
Very interesting and thank you. I was looking at using codec2 over lora a while ago but got distracted. This beautifully clear explanation of ofdm has inspired me. I think I'll revisit it.
I am interested in your results, too!
A semester's worth of comms-101-theory explained in 13 easy-to-digest minutes. Bravo :)
Thank you for your kind words. I started with a course in modern communication. As said in the video, this topic is not easy for me. I did this kind of math 40 years ago.
Good morning sir your both youtube channel are very good and informative,,,, and it helps us lots,,,,,,,i again thanks to you for making these channels,,,,,,,, very few people do this,,,,,,,,, with ❤️,,,,,,,
Glad you like my content!
Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas🎄⛄ and a happy New Year
Correct!
@@HB9BLA wish you merry Christmas and happy new year also. Stay well. DE VU3EZX.
@@ArindamGhoshal Thank you!
Decoding worked fine with normal PC speakers. I wish you a happy new year as well!
Thank you!
Andreas, I think this is a great idea but I don't have any suggestions. I will definitely follow this so I can use it at my cabin in the mountains. Thank you for your service to our hobby for so many years. Jeff
You are welcome!
At first I thought you were trolling us, because my first few attempts correctly decoded your callsign but gave "Decoding failed" as the message (as if that's what had been transmitted - the app could use some user interface improvements). Sticking the phone closer to my headphone cup finally got a successful decode, though! Very cool app, and I hope to see future improvements in this kind of easily accessible use of high-tech encoding.
It's sad to me that there's seemingly a big divide in the amateur radio community where a majority of the hobby is "caught in the past" and unwilling or uninterested in combining the extremely capable modern encoding schemes and digital processing tools we have available with the very powerful and useful transmitters and frequency bands that hams have access to. There's all kinds of cool things you could do with encoding modes like this on HF for example, but every time I search for projects doing this kind of thing, I always end up at abortive or abandoned attempts that never really took off (with a few limited exceptions).
Too many hams are satisfied with either their simple old SSB and FM audio modes, or happy to rely on weird proprietary clunky windows applications made 15 years ago that are awkward to interact with or don't run on many types of systems. This is not to say those modes don't have a place, but amateur radio was originally created to allow experimentation and development of this newfangled "radio" technology, and in many ways the community is reluctant to advance much past the 1950s. Modern open-source design methods seem like a perfect match for the sharing-friendly and experimental ethos of amateur radio, but somehow the two are rarely enthusiastically used together.
The preamble symbol in COFDMTV, that contains the call sign, is designed to be much more robust than the payload symbols, so we have a high probability to find out who is transmitting. Indeed, the UI needs improvement with the handling of errors. Thank you for the feedback.
In the board of the Swiss HAM Radio organization, I am responsible for modern technologies (all invented after 1980).
After a short time, I decided not to care about the ones not interested. They love their hobby and are happy with it. I focus on the ones interested in this tech. This is part of the motivation to create this channel.
Lots of FT8 transmissions in the air means that there are enough interested people.
Also WSJT-X is open source. This is enough for me to not be worried too much.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you also.
Thank you!
Pointu, efficace, super travail merci
De rien!
Excellent video, thanks for sharing!
You are welcome! Thank you for your distribution! Maybe you send me an email or a Facebook messenger message? I would like to use your project for my future SDR projects.
@@HB9BLA sure thing! That’d be great.
And a Merry Christmas and a
Happy New Year to you, too!
Thank you!
You can’t beat Nyquist - or can you?
Fascinating technology. Very Happy Christmas to you
You can't but you can get arbitrarily close to its limit 😉
Merry Christmas, too!
Frequency is only one of parameters which defines message capacity.
Another two are power and time.
If you have very loud signal, you can put more data into it.
However at some point sound turns into shockwave, so there is a limit here too, sadly.
But looks like time is unlimited.
The comment was about data rate which is per unit time
@@mahudson3547 anyway SNR can vary.
Hi. I have built something similar to Rattlegram and achieved 250 characters/sec speed on Aspera V-9. I have made some patch wires using off-the-shelf wires for headsets of WTs & phones to avoid the mixing of ambient noise or disturbance. Due this I was able to achieve a proper audio. However the audio frequency ranges of different WTs requires certain changes in the app's code and trial and error on volume of reception on listening side
Ahmet Limited the number of channels because he also experienced bandwidth differences. Your speed is quite impressive.
This is amazing ! My head is hot after taking so much info but technology is worth of it.
Indeed, it is not easy ;-)
Coincidentally, a few days ago I found a website showing how to send images captured by an ESP-32CAM through SSTV using these radios. SSTV transmission seems very interesting.
Thank you for your videos and best wishes for 2023!
Ahmet dis some SSTV before this project, too.. Happy 2023 to you, too.
Can you share a link?
Merci Andreas pour cette découverte, Joyeuses fêtes de fin d'année... Frohe Festtage, 73's, HB9DVD, Marc
Vielen Dank! Dir und deiner Familie ebenfalls Frohe Weihnachten und einen guten Rutsch ins neue Jahr.
Thanks for wishing us a merry Christmas and a happy new year. I wish you the same too! :)
:-)
David Rowe developed the Fdmdv modem for use with his CODEC2 voice codec. That modem seems very similar to the one presented here. Unfortunately that modem is deeply embedded in the freedv application. I haven't seen it being used for non-voice data.
Thank you! Interesting links. I will have a look at these projects.
Once again an excellent video. You should look at VARA and VARA FM
Unfortunately, these modems are not open source :-(
DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale) uses OFDM with QAM modulation of the sub carriers. There is an amateur radio version of DRM using open source software on a PC
I had a quick look at DRM. An interesting project combining old AM technology with newer Smartphones!
Many thanks for that Andreas.
You are welcome!
The equations for the DFT are for the continuous time domain, not the discrete time domain as would be used in an OFDM modulator/demodulator. Some carriers are also designated as pilots with fixed magnitude and phase for equalization and timing recovery, therefore not all carriers can be utilized for data.
You are right.
I'll return the favor to HB9BLA with a review of this video in this week's issue of Zero Retries newsletter. HB9BLA does a GREAT job with this video.
Thank you, Steve! You do a great job, too.
I found it worked very well through my laptop speakers - though I could get 'decoding failed' by moving the phone further away than about 2m... but it always seemed to know the sender was HB9BLA - so I wonder if there is additional error correction for the sender id?
though I'm not the first "Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas :christmas_tree: :snowman: and a happy New Year"
Congratulations to Ahmet on a successful implementation and coming up with a very catch name for it.
The preamble symbol in COFDMTV, that contains the call sign, is designed to be much more robust than the payload symbols, so we have a high probability to find out who is transmitting. Compliments are always welcome and motivating.
Hello Andreas,
thank you for the excellent explanation. Installed the App, set my Callsign and it worked right out of the box: 2 x the jumping brown fox and the Christmas wishes which are returned from the Black Forrest to CH.
Viele Grüße
Correct! All three messages.
Merry Christmas to you as well.
Thank you!
"Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and a happy new year." That was the message I got. Merry Christmas to everyone.
You got it right!
I re watched your video as I start on a new project. Ham radio applications for OFDM include the VARA and some versions of ARDOP as used by Winlink. VARA in particular is robust in very difficult conditions, but it is proprietary system..
Indeed, a lot of the newer modulations use OFDM.
Wow building our own modulators and demodulators for these sound interesting.
I agree!
Thank you so much. This video was really interesting.
You are welcome!
Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and a happy New Year
Yes!
Very interesting. I'd love to make a couple of dedicated devices using a pair of cheap BF888's and attached directly to a USB sound card just as done with use of Allstar nodes. We could take care of pressing ptt and reduce audible noise in that case. 73.
Should be possible. It seems you can add noise befor the transmission to trigger the VOX
Downloaded from play store. Input my call. Entered message and transmitted. Very interesting. Collins radio used sync cohesrant ofdm in their kineplex system back in the 50's. Their adoption of coherent psk, qpsk dropped the necessary noise floor 10's of dB. Isn't it a great world we live in. Thanks so much for the presentations you do. I'm just now picking up the esp32 python hobby partially because of your wonderful videos..73. de Tom W5XTT
Interesting that OFDM was already used in the analog tube times!
"Dear viewers, I wish you a Merry Christmas🎄☃ and a happy New Year"
Worked first time decoding :)
Correct!
That is extremely intertesting topic. I tried to do something similar actually.. Didn't finish it, but it seems like an awesome opportunity to start again :)
Indeed, a good chance!
Nice thing about such project that it can be perfected indefinitely.
Received: Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and a happy New Year
Yes!
We've had digital modes since the invention of radio. In fact, it was the first mode.
I agree. I do not know your capability, but my morse speed never got higher than a bit over 2 characters per second...
@@HB9BLA About 12 WPM or 1 character per second peak for me. A good bit lower now.
When I was young I worked as a professional radio operator…
@@HB9BLA Very nice. I did teletype work as a young man; speed there about 10x Morse. Morse strictly by amateur radio. TTY machine was limited to 100 WPM if I remember this right.
a great video, thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
Sometimes I miss the old days of just AM. It is nice to talk on. With digital transmissions though, AM just doesn't cut it. For digital, I do like OFDM, but for analogue voice, I like the old fashioned AM.
There is no "either or", I think. There are still enough people interested in old tech.
Forward (typo). At RF, COFDM is not a cure-all it does have the Peak-to-Average power issue requiring highly linear, inefficient, and complex RF amplifiers. Whereas, GSM uses GMSK and tolerates non-linear efficient simple Class-C amplifiers.
You are right. This is why it is not used in low power applications.
Very interesting.
Glad you think so!
I'd love progressive videos about modulation - could you also include QAM?
I've tried implementing this… lack of access to the full I and Q means you either have to use FSK (slow), or synchronise the phase before every transmission if you want OFDM .
I'm going to check this out!
You are right. Synchronization is very important.
i like the bit where you said "they" call a FT an "Inverse function of the IFT" :D
not sure which "they" do that but i always just called the inverse of the inverse of a thing that thing :P
joke aside great video though, learned a lot :)
They are the guys to understand it ;-)
This is interesting!
Thank you!
If you use cell phones to transmit and pre-shared encryption keys for the data, it becomes extremely difficult to censor, something we need in this age. I had thought of using a central server so that a group of friends could send and receive secret messages over cell phones. No not Signal, that uses the internet. Talking about voice calls just like in the video, over cell calls, not ham radio.
So there's this app called Signal...
@@pete3897 Signal relies on the internet. I'm talking about making voice calls, just like in the video. I'll update my comment.
In HAM radio, encryption is not allowed.
@@HB9BLA correct. Hence the need for cell phone calls.
as an added bonus you're adding random noise to the NSA database where they record all of our phone calls. won't compress very well either 😂
Could encoding and/or decoding of Rattlegram be implemented on a microcontroller of some sort?
It needs quite a lot of power. Maybe Ahmet will try an ESP32-A1S
@@HB9BLA prelookuptable or precalcul array could "help a lot to solve" compute problems with ram available on new µc remember what demomakers was beable to do with limited ressources 20 yeas ago !
Hey, I would love to build multi-digital radio based on CM4 pi supporting m17 digital mode too. It would be good if you covered that mode too.
Thank you!
There doesn't seem to be an iPhone version of Rattlegram, at least not in the German app store.
Not yet
Excellent video. Thanks! I'm assuming this would work between two Baofengs with K2 cables to thier respective phones. I'd expect this to improve reliability, yes?
I think so, but did not try
@@HB9BLA Tried this and it worked. Here is the setup:
HT setup (both HTs)
HT model:
Frequency: Wide (25 KHz)
Power : Low (HTs at opposite end of 12' room)
Vox: On, level 3/4 out of 7. (One level on each HT. 7 is most sensitive).
Squelch: 1 (Zero is open squelch).
Volume: 1/4 turn from off.
Dual watch: off
Receive power save: off.
Cable setup
Baofeng standard cable (K1) and Baofeng APRS cable (K2).
Phone setup
Phones: recent Motorola Androids.
Volume: 3/4 or slightly less. Decoding does not work if transmitting phone's volume is too high.
Love that the demo shows the 2nd smartphone's latest message to pop up says "Decoding failed" at 1:26.
Also love that he's Rick-rolled himself.
It does not work all the time...
Does anyone know if this method is similar or not to what the Trailblazer modems used back in the late 80s? I remember reading a description where it divided the bandwidth up into a hundred or so channels and did all the encoding/decoding in software.
AFAIK OFDM was not used back then. The chips were not capable...
@@HB9BLA Trailblaizer's PEP was based on OFDM, those modems was a revelation for uucp. Never forget their line signals, it's a music for my ears.
@@jankkhvej I now read the story of Trailblazer PEP. Indeed, this was revolutionary back then. And they needed quite expensive chips for "just" a modem...
That's badass 😱
:-)
I've been doing this using a hellscrieber app on my iPhone to text my kid over gmrs. No cables, just phones using internal mic and speaker held near the transceiver. Works great, even on the edge of range thanks to hellscrieber doing no decoding/forward error correction or checks. Try it out... I bet you $100 that you'll be able to read msgs at further range using hellscrieber as opposed to rattlegram.
Good to know. I do not know the Hellscriber protocol.
@@HB9BLA I find that hard to believe having watched many of your videos. Look up feld hell, and hellschreiber. I'm probably misspelling it, but you'll find it. It was invented around the cw days.
@@paaao I know the name, but never used it to be precise. I was not active during the "packet times"
Andreas,
I'm not sure where sufficiently complex modulations cross the line to become "encryption" which isn't legal in some countries.
In the US we have prohibitions on encryption, and requirements for station Identification.
It appears that published compression methods are OK in the US, so long as the intent is to compress.. but, at some point, with "sufficient" error detection, the amount of "compression" compared to "overhead" becomes a loosing battle.
How should we handle clear text station ID?
Thoughts?
There are many discussions about encryption because the law was created before modern protocols. What they wanted to forbit is to have secrets. So I assume we should be able to use modern protocols and share the keys somehow. Then it would no more be a secret and therefore legal. Anyway, we have to solve this problem in the next years.
My understanding of prohibition of cryptography on ham radio is to ensure that anyone can listen. So by all means encrypt the signal just make the key public and include callsigns and stay in band. Here in Australia encryption is allowed for the express use of control of a remote or space device as well.
1:36 from HB9BLA1: Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas🎄⛄ and a happy New Year
You got it right!
I made similar software many years ago.
At this moment it uses BPSK.
One problem with OFDM that is not mentioned in this video is that with bad microphones and speakers it is possible to completely lose part of frequency range, which means that some subcarriers will be completely destroyed.
That's why I decided not to use it.
Without OFDM my program have problems with multipath propagation, yes, but 2-3kbit/s are still achievable even with lot more primitive modulation.
I agree. For me I agree that the frequency response of the channel is important. For me, this tool was just an introduction into OFDM. I do not think that microphones and loudspeakers are a good thing without humans...
Yup, I'm in. Well in as far as I can be with the very limited free time I've got. :-)
It will be spread over time...
Dear viewers, I wish you a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!
Correct!
Does Rattlegram work on a repeater? I can't seem to do it.
It should work on any analog connection. Digital modes (e.g. DMR) usually distort the signal too much
@HB9BLA Can't get it to work on local 2m repeaters.
@@dougofford6567 Strange. It should work on analog connections...
Message: Dear viewers, I wish you Merry Christmas and happy New Year.
Great idea!
Correct!
Encryption is not allowed on amature bands but could you use ultrasound as as long as you use of the accepted and published modulation types just shift the frequency to inauable?
As long as you do not encrypt, you are safe.
Is rattlegram legal to use on 2m/70cm bands?
Very good video Thankyou Fritz
Thank you!
It would be possible to transfer small files by sound. Incredible.
Even larger sound files could move across, depending on the compression of the files. :)
Not a new concept, this is how vintage computers like Commodore 64 stored programs, in 80' there were even some transmissions of programs in public radio
As DV writes, we stored our programs on cassette decks. But did not use these modern high speed protocols.
It's time to recall 20 years old dial-up modems with speeds up to 56kbps
This is very interesting.
Thank you!
a beautiful initiative so much more beautiful if I can do it,
But this is just the audio signal, right? The RF signal is still FM (The RF carrier being frequency modulated by the OFDM audio? Or am i missing something about the radios in the demo? Is the radio doing something different than FM?
In my case, the radios do. FM. But it does not matter. As you say, it is just an audio sound. Very versatile.
It sounds like it is using a concept called data over sound. This idea is being considered for IoT as an added layer of security. Two of the software schemes to implement this are called Chirp and Listen.
What is the name of the project?
I wonder if this would work for under-water sonic communications..?
I do not know. Sonic coms is a very special topic.
merry xmas to you too!
Thank you. Same to you!
I would like to learn more about time multiplexing like dmr it uses where 2 stations can transmit at the same time on the same frequency
Lots of info on Google re DMR PMR radio. The likes of Motorola’s mototrbo uses TDMA (Time-Devision multiple access) 👍
Maybe we will cover DMR in one of my future videos.
@@HB9BLA I would like to use it on cb, but from what I know, it needs to much bandwidth
@@lanealucy It will not work on CB, it is used on the 70cm band
@@HB9BLA I know, but wouldn't it be cool to make it work on 11m? I mean 11m has the most reach under the free bands
I got a decode failure four times and bad preamble twice. Never got it to decode.
Try changing the decoder settings sample rate to 44.1k. I had problems with lower sample rates.
Somebody wrote that he had to enter a Callsigns before it decoded.
You might have one of those devices that has two microphones: one in the back near the camera and one at the bottom edge of the device. In that case you should play with the "Channel Select" setting in the "Decoder Settings" menu. Choose either "First" or "Second" and see if that helps. You can also select "Voice Recognition" and "Unprocessed" from the "Audio Source" setting to try and disable active noise cancellation.
Nice! Could you please make a tutorial about using Rattlegram ?
I showed all what is needed ;-)
What are the uses for this acoustic signal communication? How far can you communicate with it (with common equipment)?
(I'm quite a foreigner to the world of ham radio)
It has no distance limit other than the limit of the communication gear you use. Typical VHF/UHF handhelds can bridge a few miles. If you use repeaters much more.
@@HB9BLA Oh, I thought it uses an acoustic signal, sound waves, and not radio waves. That's what was said in the video, and the transceivers were always close to each other. I thought the phone sent the message to the transceiver via Radio waves, and the transceiver made the sound, which was then received by the microphone of the other transceiver, and so on...
Now I understand I got mixed up, and it is the smartphone which makes the sound, which is then transmitted by the radio (pretty much like normal operation). This makes much more sense now! 😁
Does it work with all frequencies?
TNX for this cool idea. Tried it out but just getting a "Decoding failed", the CALLSIGN is transmitted. Neither the sound from the YT Video decodes (same message: Decoding failed" and also tried between two Anytone Handhelds over 2m. Call Sign is set on both sides. The two phones decode perfectly if there are next to each other.
Any ideas? (Rattlegram 1.4)
It does not work over DMR for sure. Over analog and from RUclips it should work (at least it worked for many commenters)
@@HB9BLA it was on analog. Direct connection.
@@wbehmann Strange. Obviously, no setup issue because it worked together. Did you pay attention that the respective microphones and loudspeakers were together? Did you hear the sound on the second handheld loud and clear?
Thanks Andreas for this interesting OFDM demonstration. Unfortunately, I could not decode your message, got always "From HB9BLA1 Decoding failed". Previously, I entered my call and experimented with different audio sources.
Anyway, great idea and well explained!
73 Stephan
You are welcome! Others were successful. So I do not know why it did not work with your setup.
Pretty interesting. If you were to send the sounds through a cable, could you use Rattlegram on HF? The mode does look very interesting.
Greetings,
Jeff
It should also work through HF. But it is not optimized for fading, etc.
Is Vara an OFDM protocol?
I think so. But I did not look into it. And it seems to be proprietary.
Hallo, gibt´s eine Handreichung zum Einrichten der App. Klar es gibt nicht viel was man Einrichten kann aber doch genug um aneinander vorbei zu Arbeiten.
Sorry die Anfrage ist Deutsch verfasst aber sollte kein Problem sein denke ich.
Ich verstehe Deutsch. Ich habe die App vom Playstore installiert und mein Rufzeichen eingegeben. Sonst habe ich alles "Default" gelassen. Wenn du etwas änderst denke ich, dass es jeweils beim Sender und beim Empfänger gleich sein muss. Aber damit habe ich bis jetzt noch nicht gespielt.
The implications of what this app can do has many important features.
So.... if the internet, mobile phone network are down for any reason, but our smartphones can start up. I could communicate a serious text through UHF or VHF transceiver, say at a specific prearranged time and frequency, with another person ... and they can type an answer on their phone and send it back.
I agree.
@@HB9BLA Rattlegram would have really been able to help in the recent wild fires in Maui Hawaï. I live in Belgium and am a newbie ham (ON3VCF). Ispent that night up listening to the only SDR on the island going up and down the 10, 11, 2m and 70cm bands, listening to sporadic desperate transmissions of people trying to find people....
Normal FM was also down. But on 1110Khz am KAOI was on emergency programming trying to help. They were the only station I could find... (using also an app called "Planet Radio"
For Several days I would tune into KAOI to listen in to the real people sharing real stories. One day a firefighter was talking about how all repeaters were out and that they'd had big difficulties getting through to base, etc. He mentioned about a new super-simple app called "Rattlegram" could have helped everyone.
I have seen a few RUclips reviews of the app, and I don't think they understand its special characteristics and features. Specifically "Parrot".
مضاعفة تقسيم التردد المتعامد
(Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing)
وضع تعديل الإشارة
في الاتصالات ، يعد تعدد الإرسال بتقسيم التردد المتعامد نوعًا من الإرسال الرقمي وطريقة لتشفير البيانات الرقمية على ترددات حاملات متعددة
على وجه التحديد
Very interesting, I wonfered when higher bit rates would come to ham radio.
They are already here in other areas like HAMnet or AREDN ;-) But on the lower bands there are opportunities.
the best thing about this protocol is the inclusion of emojis! we need emoji Q codes for morse code too. QLOL
QLF
I also wondered that it includes emojis.
I have a couple of questions if I may.
I presume this will work if you use a k plug repeater connecting from the mobile phones 3.55mm jack? Also will this work where dcs is set on a channel?
Thank you.
The audio just has to be able to travel from the Smartphone to the transceiver.
super nice video :)
Thanks for the visit!
Hi !!! Greetings from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I bought two Baofeng Handies, the cheapest ones, the simplest ones, BF999S, how can I send data from DB9 to handy number 1, receive data on handy number 2, and decode it with arduino uno and RS232 module HW-044 ? , and show that data on a cheap OLED display like 1.3" (GND, VCC, SCL, SDA) Thanks so much !!!!!!!