Another quick update: The shaft coupler keeps slipping and cannot grip the Engine shaft tight enough during high power! Once I solve these pesky issues, I will definitely post progress updates!
If you tighten your set screws then loosen then tighten several times it helps to keep the couplers (set screws) tight. That little engine sounds great.
Yes tighten the set screws then back off 1/4 turn and retighten and back off 1/4 turn then tighten 2-3 times. Each time the set screw bites into the shaft farther securing it. Or grind part of the shaft flat then put a set screw on it.
I don't mean to underestimate your great work but there are some questions that we as viewers have: 1. What do you mean by Hybrid Engine / Drone? 2. Does the piston shaft rotation create a voltage output from the electric motor that is attached to ? 3. You must keep carburetor butterfly open after the engine. 4. You should keep the carburetor butterfly closed to get fuel into engine 5. How can you fly an RC plane when the you are using the aileron commands to start/ kill engine ????
#1 "Hybrid" is a term I used to describe having a LiPo battery in Parallel with the Generator...to act as a buffer for energy, and to start the generator. #2 Any motor generates a voltage when spun, however once you attach a load to the motor wires, torque is proportional to current drawn, and a certain torque is required to keep the motor spinning at a constant RPM. The Gas Engine provides this torque. I don't understand #3 and #4. The "Choke" is only used for starting a cold engine. If you stop an engine, you can restart without Choke if its still warm enough. #5 This is a demonstration video where I am controlling the generator manually with a Transmitter. Normally, A generator will be automatically controlled with just an ON/OFF command sent.
Great Presentation Is it fair to say that your system can be used to: 1. to start the gas engine as electric starter ( no need to push propellers counterclockwise)? 2. The combination of Gas Engine rpm with the electric motor produce voltage to charge batteries ? *** 3. what do you do with the extra voltage that is produce and not needed during a flight ?
Hey very cool project, I subscribed. The mechanical things like the coupler will be solved!:) combustion engines are hard on everything, I noticed that when putting a VESC controlled brushless motor on a small gas bike. Everything gets loose, slips and wears. But you'll figure it out!
Very interesting video. I am working on something similar with an MVVS 58 cc engine, hoping to get 5000 watts at 50 volts. I originally wanted to control 6 MOSFETs with an Arduino for voltage control but I think your VESC is more elegant in that you get a more constant voltage out
@@Jdogdrums7 MVVS 58cc is at the top of the heap in terms of hp/weight ratio, generating 8.5hp at 6950 RPM. I will operate at max torque speed of 6600 RPM
@@paradiselost9946 I was converting 5000 watts to HP 1 HP = 746 mechanical watts This is also before the mechanical/electrical conversion losses in the motor
May I ask one question : When engine Start and running, in this case motor is a generator, there are 3 phase electric forward to esc, why the esc not bunning ? Thanks
Hey Jordan, I found your video by chance the other day and wanted to talk with you about your experience with the VESC and the regeneration mode. I am working on the same exact type of project but only recently we have decided to try and add the VESC to do some active rectification and self-start. The generator itself is already working well with passive rectification but I think the VESC could be a nice addition. Would you want to chat or collaborate about this?
when you start really testing things out, you come across a strange, but logical, effect. its called "jacobs law". as a generator, it is nothing more than the demonstration of a magnet down a pipe. it takes effort, work, to move that magnet against the induced eddy currents and their opposing fields. we cut a slot in the pipe and there is no eddy current, no opposing field. no work done. we bridge the slot with a resistance. we measure a voltage drop across that resistance, and calculate a current through the resistance. we say we have so many watts flowing through the resistance. we forget that the GENERATOR ITSELF is a resistance. and as a current flows through it, it must also dissipate so many watts. and then if the load and the generator are EQUAL in resistance? we get half the power dissipating in the generator, half in the "load". the engine DRIVING the generator sees TWICE the power that one reads across the "load resistance". we increase the load resistance and reduce the current flowing, the same current through the generator. we now have far more work performed or "lost" in the resistance, versus wasted in the generator. overall though, less work is done in the circuit, as current is limited by the load resistance... easy to verify, just an IR2 equation... the generator always consumes a proportion of the work supplied by the engine, and only really is "efficient" when barely loaded, when the load consumes a far larger proportion of what little power can flow. the generator _could_ deliver far more power into a lower resistance, but in doing so consumes more power in its OWN resistance. when completely shorted , ALL the power is dissipated in the generator itself, the current will be at a maximum, and the voltage will be the potential developed by the current flowing through the resistance of the shorted generator. the "lenz reaction", the magnet in a pipe... at 100% efficiency, you can only get 50% of the engines power out as electricity, volts x amps. and it will ALWAYS be LESS than 50% as there are losses. thats the biggest joke about "efficiency"... you get HALF at 100%. not ALL of it, not "100%"... you get HALF! seems everyones forgotten about that basic aspect of physics... PE=2gh, and KE = 1/2Mv^2. jacobs law is just the electrical equivalent. like "therevins maximum power theorem". its like impedance matching in amplifiers. if the load is a LOWER resistance than the generator, the majority of work is performed in the generator, and the "power" read across the "load resistor" will be proportionately less... the KV rating of the "generator" will determine the RPM it needs for a given voltage on a given resistance until its reached its limit. be it magnetic, RPM, or resistance/insulation, etc. the voltage will be limited by the current it can flow through a load resistance. when the resistance is too low, too much current can flow, the voltage sags, and the generator is overloaded, yet the "output power" appears to reduce, despite the braking power produced by the generator INCREASING. then theres rectifier losses, and all that jazz as youre switching from AC to DC, etc... and finally, batteries arent resistors. below the charge voltage, they consume no current. once they are held at a potential that charge can take place, they draw current. that current is only limited by the batteries internal resistance, and pulls the voltage down. if the generator cant maintain he current at this new voltage, it sags further... either you stall the engine, overload the generator, or the batteries simply dont charge properly. ideally the voltage will only sag to the charge voltage that accepts that current and everythings fine... the problem is as the batteries do charge, the voltage rises... and so does the current delivered... too much current only causes IR2 losses as heat in the battery. it isnt "charging" it.
The main purpose of this setup really has nothing to do with Load / Generator matching, but is to test 3 concepts: 1. Increasing Rectification efficiency, not anything to do with Conversion efficiency (equivalent to the type of Motor Drive commutation) If you look at Motor MTPA (max torque per amp), you find that Field Oriented Control is a more efficient commutation method than BLDC Trapezoidal commutation (Tangential or “Direct” axis current losses compared to the Useful “Quadrature” current) These losses can be observed in Rectifying from a Motor and not just driving it with current. I guess you could call it MAPT or (Maximum Amp per Torque) meaning no Losses suffered from incorrect or “Direct” axis current flow 2. Field Oriented control eliminates the Usual need for very large DC Ripple capacitors like found in most Mechanical Generator setups. This is because the only capacitors required is really for the Transients due to the MOSFET switching and not the “Sinusoid humps” that are usually found with Passive Diode rectifiers. Diodes act like Gates, and instead of letting the Current follow the Quadrature axis completely, they are Passive and uncontrolled, and so they allow Direct axis current flow. They also usually have a larger forward voltage drop and higher Resistance across them than closed MOSFETS do. 3. You now have Way more control over your rectification (diodes are just based on Voltage drop between the motor and the load) and the VESC can limit that, or it can even Drive the motor (useful for starting up the ICE in a neat package, you would need a separate starter in a Diode rectifier setup) You can choose between what your Priority is for your operating conditions: DUTY CYCLE (Varies torque and current for stability) CURRENT CONTROL (useful for meeting specific torque or wattage needs) SPEED CONTROL (if your Setup needs to be regulated based on Physical RPM without much priority on Power regulation) TLDR: This test really isn’t testing ICE generators at all, this is just a Generator setup to test varying Rectification differences and efficiencies. These things could be applied to any Mechanical generator (small DIY Wind Turbines, Low head dam turbines, etc.)
Normally Generators are used for flight power for Multirotors. This one is just a technology demonstrator for Active Rectification when most generators these days are using Passive Diode Bridge Rectifiers
A engine ignites a substance to create motion. A motor gets its motion from a non combustible happening. I can't remember the exact definition but that's what Google is for,
"gross motor". bodily movement. we consume fuel and oxygen. get over the pedantry of this form of nomenclature, its irrelevant. motor. motion. movement. to drive. engine. machine. mechanism. device. wtf is google? the reason everyones getting stupid?
well the Voltage is regulated by VESC, as long as the motor is not overspun past its kV for the voltage you need. Different VESCs can stand different currents...Mine is rated at 50A, but there are some VESCs that can do 300a but they are expensive.
Hey man! Thanks for the idea! I’ve been having a lot of fun with my project. Never would have thought of this without finding your video. CISON L4 How much power does a tiny engine make? Most obnoxious battery charger. ruclips.net/video/wHpG6Vx63Cs/видео.html
Love to hear more about this if you ever get around to it. Really nice job in presentation and explanation.
Can't wait to see you throttle up and show us some generation!
Another quick update: The shaft coupler keeps slipping and cannot grip the Engine shaft tight enough during high power!
Once I solve these pesky issues, I will definitely post progress updates!
@@Jdogdrums7 Maybe you can sand the shaft a bit on one side, to make it like a D and have a coupling with set screws on the D for better connection?
If you tighten your set screws then loosen then tighten several times it helps to keep the couplers (set screws) tight. That little engine sounds great.
Yes tighten the set screws then back off 1/4 turn and retighten and back off 1/4 turn then tighten 2-3 times. Each time the set screw bites into the shaft farther securing it. Or grind part of the shaft flat then put a set screw on it.
I don't mean to underestimate your great work but there are some questions that we as viewers have:
1. What do you mean by Hybrid Engine / Drone?
2. Does the piston shaft rotation create a voltage output from the electric motor that is attached to ?
3. You must keep carburetor butterfly open after the engine.
4. You should keep the carburetor butterfly closed to get fuel into engine
5. How can you fly an RC plane when the you are using the aileron commands to start/ kill engine ????
#1 "Hybrid" is a term I used to describe having a LiPo battery in Parallel with the Generator...to act as a buffer for energy, and to start the generator.
#2 Any motor generates a voltage when spun, however once you attach a load to the motor wires, torque is proportional to current drawn, and a certain torque is required to keep the motor spinning at a constant RPM. The Gas Engine provides this torque.
I don't understand #3 and #4. The "Choke" is only used for starting a cold engine. If you stop an engine, you can restart without Choke if its still warm enough.
#5 This is a demonstration video where I am controlling the generator manually with a Transmitter. Normally, A generator will be automatically controlled with just an ON/OFF command sent.
Great Presentation
Is it fair to say that your system can be used to:
1. to start the gas engine as electric starter ( no need to push propellers counterclockwise)?
2. The combination of Gas Engine rpm with the electric motor produce voltage to charge batteries ?
*** 3. what do you do with the extra voltage that is produce and not needed during a flight ?
Hey very cool project, I subscribed. The mechanical things like the coupler will be solved!:) combustion engines are hard on everything, I noticed that when putting a VESC controlled brushless motor on a small gas bike. Everything gets loose, slips and wears. But you'll figure it out!
I'll make another update video this weekend
this is cool, i have a similar setup but im using a watercooled nitro engine and a brushed motor to start and stop it.
Why not use the moving air for cooling during flight? When the UAV is at flight, have an opening for air to come through. Wouldn't that work?
Can you plz do an instructional video on how to build/assemble it? Thx
**** Great presentation
Do you keep the carburetor open when you start the engine with the RC??
No, idle
I luv hybrids ❤️
very cool build!
Bloody awesome mate
Is this the way forward for the coming e VTOL air taxis, I think so. Nice work, interesting project.
Hello Jordan can this setup fly with a big propeller
Very interesting video. I am working on something similar with an MVVS 58 cc engine, hoping to get 5000 watts at 50 volts. I originally wanted to control 6 MOSFETs with an Arduino for voltage control but I think your VESC is more elegant in that you get a more constant voltage out
Keep in mind, at 100% efficiency, that engine would require at least 6.7 Horsepower
@@Jdogdrums7 MVVS 58cc is at the top of the heap in terms of hp/weight ratio, generating 8.5hp at 6950 RPM. I will operate at max torque speed of 6600 RPM
@@Jdogdrums7 13.4 you mean ;)
@@paradiselost9946 I was converting 5000 watts to HP
1 HP = 746 mechanical watts
This is also before the mechanical/electrical conversion losses in the motor
May I ask one question : When engine Start and running, in this case motor is a generator, there are 3 phase electric forward to esc, why the esc not bunning ? Thanks
The direction of the power does not affect an ESC. This VESC feels the same driving the motor, as it does rectifying current from the motor.
Hi
How model VESC did You use?
Thanks
Pawel
just a cheap Flipsky 4.20 for this test. There aren't any VESC's much worse than what I used here
Hi mate, I like your video do you have any update on your project? when are you gonna upload your second video looking forward for that.
Hopefully some progress will be made this weekend. Some new parts came in.
Hey Jordan,
I found your video by chance the other day and wanted to talk with you about your experience with the VESC and the regeneration mode. I am working on the same exact type of project but only recently we have decided to try and add the VESC to do some active rectification and self-start. The generator itself is already working well with passive rectification but I think the VESC could be a nice addition. Would you want to chat or collaborate about this?
I have a Discord server that you can join. I can always talk on there.
discord.gg/UVDqHn8c5C
@@Jdogdrums7 Hey, can I get a new invite? this link has expired!
@@oadka discord.gg/UVDqHn8c5C
Check out Pegasus Aeronautics. 70cc two stroke. Self start. . Fuel injected. Water cooled. 4kw output. 10kg payload 3 hours endurance.
when you start really testing things out, you come across a strange, but logical, effect.
its called "jacobs law".
as a generator, it is nothing more than the demonstration of a magnet down a pipe. it takes effort, work, to move that magnet against the induced eddy currents and their opposing fields.
we cut a slot in the pipe and there is no eddy current, no opposing field. no work done.
we bridge the slot with a resistance. we measure a voltage drop across that resistance, and calculate a current through the resistance.
we say we have so many watts flowing through the resistance.
we forget that the GENERATOR ITSELF is a resistance. and as a current flows through it, it must also dissipate so many watts.
and then if the load and the generator are EQUAL in resistance?
we get half the power dissipating in the generator, half in the "load".
the engine DRIVING the generator sees TWICE the power that one reads across the "load resistance".
we increase the load resistance and reduce the current flowing, the same current through the generator. we now have far more work performed or "lost" in the resistance, versus wasted in the generator. overall though, less work is done in the circuit, as current is limited by the load resistance... easy to verify, just an IR2 equation...
the generator always consumes a proportion of the work supplied by the engine, and only really is "efficient" when barely loaded, when the load consumes a far larger proportion of what little power can flow. the generator _could_ deliver far more power into a lower resistance, but in doing so consumes more power in its OWN resistance.
when completely shorted , ALL the power is dissipated in the generator itself, the current will be at a maximum, and the voltage will be the potential developed by the current flowing through the resistance of the shorted generator. the "lenz reaction", the magnet in a pipe...
at 100% efficiency, you can only get 50% of the engines power out as electricity, volts x amps. and it will ALWAYS be LESS than 50% as there are losses.
thats the biggest joke about "efficiency"... you get HALF at 100%. not ALL of it, not "100%"... you get HALF! seems everyones forgotten about that basic aspect of physics...
PE=2gh, and KE = 1/2Mv^2.
jacobs law is just the electrical equivalent. like "therevins maximum power theorem". its like impedance matching in amplifiers.
if the load is a LOWER resistance than the generator, the majority of work is performed in the generator, and the "power" read across the "load resistor" will be proportionately less...
the KV rating of the "generator" will determine the RPM it needs for a given voltage on a given resistance until its reached its limit. be it magnetic, RPM, or resistance/insulation, etc.
the voltage will be limited by the current it can flow through a load resistance.
when the resistance is too low, too much current can flow, the voltage sags, and the generator is overloaded, yet the "output power" appears to reduce, despite the braking power produced by the generator INCREASING.
then theres rectifier losses, and all that jazz as youre switching from AC to DC, etc...
and finally, batteries arent resistors. below the charge voltage, they consume no current.
once they are held at a potential that charge can take place, they draw current.
that current is only limited by the batteries internal resistance, and pulls the voltage down. if the generator cant maintain he current at this new voltage, it sags further... either you stall the engine, overload the generator, or the batteries simply dont charge properly. ideally the voltage will only sag to the charge voltage that accepts that current and everythings fine... the problem is as the batteries do charge, the voltage rises... and so does the current delivered...
too much current only causes IR2 losses as heat in the battery. it isnt "charging" it.
The main purpose of this setup really has nothing to do with Load / Generator matching, but is to test 3 concepts:
1. Increasing Rectification efficiency, not anything to do with Conversion efficiency (equivalent to the type of Motor Drive commutation)
If you look at Motor MTPA (max torque per amp), you find that Field Oriented Control is a more efficient commutation method than BLDC Trapezoidal commutation (Tangential or “Direct” axis current losses compared to the Useful “Quadrature” current)
These losses can be observed in Rectifying from a Motor and not just driving it with current.
I guess you could call it MAPT or (Maximum Amp per Torque) meaning no Losses suffered from incorrect or “Direct” axis current flow
2. Field Oriented control eliminates the Usual need for very large DC Ripple capacitors like found in most Mechanical Generator setups. This is because the only capacitors required is really for the Transients due to the MOSFET switching and not the “Sinusoid humps” that are usually found with Passive Diode rectifiers.
Diodes act like Gates, and instead of letting the Current follow the Quadrature axis completely, they are Passive and uncontrolled, and so they allow Direct axis current flow. They also usually have a larger forward voltage drop and higher Resistance across them than closed MOSFETS do.
3. You now have Way more control over your rectification (diodes are just based on Voltage drop between the motor and the load) and the VESC can limit that, or it can even Drive the motor (useful for starting up the ICE in a neat package, you would need a separate starter in a Diode rectifier setup)
You can choose between what your Priority is for your operating conditions: DUTY CYCLE (Varies torque and current for stability)
CURRENT CONTROL (useful for meeting specific torque or wattage needs) SPEED CONTROL (if your Setup needs to be regulated based on Physical RPM without much priority on Power regulation)
TLDR:
This test really isn’t testing ICE generators at all, this is just a Generator setup to test varying Rectification differences and efficiencies.
These things could be applied to any Mechanical generator (small DIY Wind Turbines, Low head dam turbines, etc.)
Sir can you share system information?
Mechanical details, which metarial use etc. 😅
It would be easier to recommend an existing RUclips channel who inspired this project
"Tech Ingredients - Hybrid Drone Generator"
@@Jdogdrums7 ❤️
Erm Erm Erm...
what's the use case?
Normally Generators are used for flight power for Multirotors.
This one is just a technology demonstrator for Active Rectification when most generators these days are using Passive Diode Bridge Rectifiers
A engine ignites a substance to create motion. A motor gets its motion from a non combustible happening. I can't remember the exact definition but that's what Google is for,
"gross motor". bodily movement. we consume fuel and oxygen.
get over the pedantry of this form of nomenclature, its irrelevant.
motor. motion. movement. to drive.
engine. machine. mechanism. device.
wtf is google? the reason everyones getting stupid?
cool, i make the same generator)
how many amperes does the recovery produce and what voltage?
what is the maximum current that VESC can withstand on regeneration?
well the Voltage is regulated by VESC, as long as the motor is not overspun past its kV for the voltage you need.
Different VESCs can stand different currents...Mine is rated at 50A, but there are some VESCs that can do 300a but they are expensive.
Ah. Um. Um.
Hey man! Thanks for the idea! I’ve been having a lot of fun with my project. Never would have thought of this without finding your video.
CISON L4 How much power does a tiny engine make? Most obnoxious battery charger.
ruclips.net/video/wHpG6Vx63Cs/видео.html
Очень много говорит!
Brbljo samo brblja i ništa !🤔