Please read this entire comment, updated 04/01/2024 [DO NOT TRY THIS EXPERIMENT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM- this test was conducted with hands-on help from world-class experts] A lot of you have missed the point of this video: This is a SCIENTIFIC TEST to demonstrate a few things: 1. The increased pressure capacity that Alpha Munitions brass can handle 2. The amazing strength of Bat actions, see ruclips.net/video/VkvFtlTEuSc/видео.html for more info 3. The IMPORTANT relationship between chamber, brass, and resizing die - see in-depth video here: ruclips.net/video/5oOdQbDq1kE/видео.html This is NOT a suggestion that 308 Winchester can replace a 300 Win Mag. [[[We got within 98.2% of Nosler's 300WM Max data]]] Here's the math: Nosler lists 10 powders/loads for 300WM 210 grain (average max load = 2807.8 fps), and 10 powders/loads for 300WM 220 grain (average max load = 2700.3 fps). The middle ground (215gr equivalent) between these is 2754.05 fps. We achieved 2706.3 here with 308, so that's 98.2% of what Nosler lists as equivalent 300WM max performance for a 215 grain bullet.
That's Noslers load data. You don't think you could push beyond that? Hard to believe you couldn't get more out of the 300 WM with a higher chamber pressure and larger case capacity. Would've been a cool video. Anyway, keep it up.
Gavin, that’s simply amazing that you were able to achieve that kind of pressure and still not get most of the signs usually seen, not even at 90 KPSI!! Great work!!👍👍
I have a feeling Alpha Muntions will be busy cranking out .308 cases for many many months as a direct result of this video. 👏 Im a big fan. Great content. Thanks!
I've heard of cryo treating barrels, I'm rebuilding an engine now and reading about how much stronger cryo treated parts are, has anyone tried cryo treating an action and bolt to find out how much stronger it is???
@@RockKnocker17it really depends on the steel alloy, but for some, cryo treatment does indeed increase performance. This usually comes in the form of more toughness for the same hardness, or higher hardness for the same toughness. But other alloys don't benefit from it.
Well, then you're going to love my next video on how I've ramped up stock .45-70 cartridges to 4,950 ft/sec velocities and 20mm Oerlikon energy(50,000 ft/lbs), but with standard pressures, using 480gr lead flat nose "cowboy load" bullets. My PPPP(proprietary patent pending powder) is obviously incredibly impressive for black powder! 😁
Glad see that you mic'd the case heads. I was so close to commenting mic the case heads in the first minute of the video and huge sigh of relief when you started mic'ing the case head
Don’t try this at home!!!! This is a great video on the subject of pressure signs and how they don’t equate to max load/ max pressure. I’ve used book listed velocity as a stopping point for 30 years for this reason. That said, whether intentional or by accident, this may be the best advertisement for Alpha brass ever created. Wish Alpha Brass made 22-250, .223, 22 or 17 Hornet brass.
Issue is, modern cartridges like the 308 and many of the most modern are quite straight in the body and that reduces the visible signs of pressure compared to older more "vedge" shaped..
@@jmkhenka The case taper? Yeah, .308 has much less taper than, say, a .22-250. I just found an old .22-250 round in one of my really old rifle cases (must have been my dad's as he had a .22-250) and I was comparing it with .308. First time I remember looking at a .22-250 and it seemed like there was a lot of room to blow the walls out straighter, use a sharper shoulder, and you could probably get a lot better performance... Though you'd probably want to run heavier pills/larger caliber so that it doesn't kill barrels even quicker! Totally off-topic but as I was comparing the two I was thinking "why doesn't the military use a case this size" as they've been wanting to go back to short-action instead of intermediate. Seems like you could get better velo's creating a round with a COAL between the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO, Like a 2.5-2.6in COAL, with a powder reservoir in the middle of the two. I guess it's probably due to standardization of box magazine sizes and splitting the difference would require an entirely new magazine design. But yeah, like a ".223 rem mag" or a ".7mm-08 special" , but not just adding/subtracting length, having the case head diameter split the difference as well. Get better velocities, flatter trajectory, longer effective ranges than an intermediate, while saving some weight and having less recoil than with a .243/6.5CM/.308. But maybe people have already tried it and the gains wouldn't warrant the cost of development... Don't mind me, I'm just thinking to myself, lol
Absolutely amazing video guys. I’m fairly new to long range precision shooting but I’ve come a long way this past year. I lost my leg while in a coma from Covid 19. So since hunting was so much trouble I dove right in to target shooting, starting with rimfires. I watch your channel pretty often. Y’all take care from South Louisiana. Mike
@@Ultimatereloader Hey thanks so much for the reply. I did want to say we got our 1st 1000yard range just last October. I had 8 impacts out of 10 shooting their 6.5 Creedmore. I always would shoot on the pipeline at the camp but our sport of long range precision shooting had yet to take off. I am so happy to see how far it has come in very recent years. Anyways, thank y’all so much for the work y’all put in making videos. I’m sure it’s not as easy as most people think it is. Take care
Key insights: 1.) Case head pressure signs are depended on the type of primer, brass, and bolt face. 2.) A case failure will most likely ruin your action and could injure you. 3.) With strong brass, case head pressure signs don't appear until you are well over SAAMI levels. 4.) Alpha brass w/ SRP is tough stuff. I would love to see you test brass life w/ the 44.0 charge (did not show extractor swipe and estimated 80kpsi) Make wise decisions people....
At the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious here are a few more factors to consider about this exercise: 1.a) Precision reloading equipment, instruments and techniques to match the loaded round as close as possible to a specific action and chamber. 2.a) A high quality action mated to a barrel chambered by a very competent smith. Everything about this rifle and the ammo is TOP QUALITY. Bottom line: You wouldn't shoot this ammo in any other rifle because this load development is very specific to this one single rifle. Don't try this with a mass produced off-the-shelf rifle that by design has much looser tolerances - that's why we have SAAMI specs.
You guys are nuts. Definitely a do not try at home load. I flirt with the max recommended pressures with a lot of my handloads. This is another level. Especially with that bullet mass. Fascinating to watch and a little horrifying the whole way. Truly impressive results. I'll add to the chorus. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!
@@Ultimatereloaderive been testing pure zinc rounds. Still not sure about instant pressure for seating depth/internal space vs the lighter weight of the projectiles fired. Would think a lighter bullet seated at the same depth would exhibit less pressure. I tend to load hot and shallow seat as much as possible anyway. But?
Excellent video and appreciate the multiple safety warnings. We worked up a 300 H&H full case load with a flat base 150 grain bullet that shot fine in my pre 64 model 70 Winchester. Took one shot in a friend's Remington model 721 and had a stiff bolt opening with brass and primer pressure signs. Much caution required to be safe when pushing loads.
In the early 90’s Handloader had an article using VV-550 to load the 308 to 30-06 levels. As a new handloader this sounded great. I proceeded to work up to their max charge weight and lo and behold my 20” .308 was achieving 24” 30-06 velocities with 165 gr bullets. Unfortunately the brass no longer retained the spent primers and thus ended my high performance 308 loads. This was either Winchester or Remington brass: I was content to load the 308 as a 308
I used to take my Weatherby chambered in 30-06 to 300 win mag velocities all of the time. My primers never bulged, my brass never stuck or swelled and I never had any problems of any kind. It also shot my 3100fps 150gr boattails to minute and below groups. It was my favorite Pronghorn and Mule Deer rifle for years.
I bet the muzzle brake was working good...... I loaded BLC-2 to the max LEE book load with 155gr ELD M. I stuck 2 cases out of 3 & blew out 2 primers.... I felt no recoil. I fell for the brass that said reamed trimmed & ready to load. They sell 308 & 223 brass in plastic jugs won't name them. You sold me on the Alpha Brass. Don't worry I will not try this but great video
Those last 2 or 3 test I'd of been pulling the trigger with a string & hiding behind something..that was nuts & even more nuts that it handled it well & you guys still have your faces ..lol..great video guys 👍
Why? The brass will show you everything you need to know long before you need to use a string to pull trigger hiding behind a tree! That along with sticky bolt !
I have done certain experiments I won't detail here, but this confirms my thoughts and observations from results I have gotten. To get more out of a cartridge, the brass needs to be tougher to handle higher pressures. With such brass, cartridges can be more efficient with powder to velocity. Interesting to see if we can redefine the limits of our cartridges with better brass.
They are exceeding the yield limit of brass. Their chamber is supporting everything the brass can not flow because they have blocked off all escape routes for the brass. It is not just the brass that is holding it together.
As a hand loader this is equal parts scary, funny in a wow sort of way and surprising. Very interesting but I will continue to never go above the listed load data, if you need more power step up to a more powerful cartridge, this video does a good job at illustrating just how fast the pressure increases with every grain added.
I'm perplexed, how does one overpressure a cartridge with a powder that is nearly impossible to overpressure in said cartridge? On top of that, not deforming the ogive or meplat?
@@PBVader Good point, max loads are usually a slightly compressed load with 168 gr bullets and with as long and heavy of bullets as they are shooting I would think it would be difficult to get that much powder in the case.
Looking at those pressure signs in the brass made my skin crawl! Thank goodness I'm not nearly as adventurous as you people when it comes to reloading! Incredible to see the maximum potential, of the caliber, no matter how horribly dangerous.
In my rem 5R, I ran 185gr Berger Juggs to almost 2800fps using PP-2000-MR powder. The best load was closer to 2750, and now it has slowed down to under 2700, but still shoots the same. 1400yds on a silhouette is tough, but doable.
Thank you for this Video ! Very Interesting I have been reloading mine 308 at 43 grns And thats for me and my rifle sig blazer sweet spot , with a 168grn bullet tack driver for me!
Good to hear about bat machine. I hope Bruce and everyone are doing well. Back in the 80s there was a high-power shooter selling steel replacement case heads for 308 or 30 ought 6 cases. They were giving me the same 80,000 PSI pressures that sig is boasting about for their new cartridge.
Me shooting a 308 and 300 win setup I was setting up my 300 195 eld with 69 grains of h4350 with testing today and this has me stoked to try some new loads with 308. Thanks Gavin for all the intel. Im gonna show this to Ray helms when he gets back from vacation see what he thinks for the mile challenge next month
Quite a Few years ago, I Bought 500 Rounds of some .300 Win Mag ammo from someone online. The ammo was Factory Loads and the Boxes were the White Cardboard like you can get from Midway with labels that had all of the Load data. The OAL and Powder Charge (IMR 4350) were well over anything I could find in any Reloading Data. So I contacted Federal and asked them if the ammo was safe to use. They told me that the ammo I had was Custom loaded for the US Navy's Long Range Competition and I should NOT shoot them in any Commercial Rifles. So I took the rounds apart and reloaded them to a "Safe" Charge weight and OAL. I still haven't shot any of them yet, LOL!
I’ve done .5 grains more then what my max load was reusing the hornady brass with Cci 250 primers. Then I reversed engineered the original load found out the 195 eld match was 68.4 grains of imr 4350 so with 69 to 70 I’m ok.
@@rodneyferguson446 IMR 4350 burns too fast for the 300 Win.Mag. The best powder I have found is IMR 4831 or RL 22. I use 74 gr. IMR 4831 with a 180 gr. bullet as my standard load for elk hunting and I get sub 3/4" MOA out of my Remmington 700 at 3100 fps.. My Winchester doesn't like the 180 grain bullets, but shoots sub MOA with a 200 grain flat base bullet. I performs best with 73.5 gr. IMR 7828 at 2850 fps. If you shoot a copper bullet or one with a thick copper case (Trophy Bonded) reduce the powder about 2 grains in both examples.
This is honestly now my favorite UR video. Every aspect of it. Layout/presentation, loading, testing, data, and even some long range! Nice first round impact @ 1,300+ Gavin! 6.5 CM with CCI 450's or 6.5 PRC Peterson or Lapua with Mag primers as well, would both be interesting tests. Thanks for sharing a glimpse of the bleeding edge of DNS (do not shoot) performance. Moore 25 Creedmoor, before Hornady announces it!
@@randomidiot8142starline has the small primer 308 brass too although i think theirs is the standard flash hole size. Tried lapua brass with the .059 flash hole size and didn’t really notice any hang fire. Not like in a flintlock anyway
Great ammo test and testing long range with the load was cool to see in some beautiful country that is what hunters experience out west. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Been there, did it, done it, on my Ruger American and 450 bushmaster. The same action in the American 450 BM is used on the 300 win mag which is rated almost 64,000 psi if I remember. I ran a ladder test all the way to 460 S&W max load book data with zero pressure signs. Never tried it again but there were zero case or primer pressure signs and no hard bolt lift all the way to max.
I believe the chambering, the barrel strength, and action strength along with the Alpha brass has to be right or one could be asking for a trip to the hospital or even the morgue. PEOPLE PLEASE BE CAREFUL. Thanks Gavin for a great video and very informative stats.
Before your panties get too wadded up, consider that the same basic receivers are used for .338 lapuas as .300 win mags and .308s. .700" bolt bodies and 2 lugs is very very common. The thrust from a .308 case vs a Lapua case makes the receiver very overbuilt for .308 or marginal for .338 Lapua, but no one gets bent over Lapua loads that are inherently more dangerous.
In 308, my accuracy load of 44.0 grs. VARGET/Hornady 168 gr. AMAX/ELD-M/Hornady brass/CCI 400. 2700 fps from 26" barrel on a trued Remington action with bushed firing pin. Rifle was built 28 years ago. I need to upgrade my equipment. Excellent video!
For a inside joke should of worn Kentucky ballistics “put a thumb in it” shirt but great info curious on what a standard rem700 action can hold up to now
My best 300WM load to date: 225 ELDM VO= 2,905 76.6 H1000 FEDGMM .88 inch 5 shot group 36deg F 100 yards 10mph wind - 26" preferred barrel on a Howa 1500 Action. 31ES 12.1SD, people at the range always ask if the rifle is a 300PRC. I say what's the point if you are staying under 230 grains... Love your content!
With a high quality action, small firing pin, no ejector, you get pressure signs further. Then you add a longer freebore, a longer barrel and you get a .308mag
I remember my youthful days of getting into reloading and I didn’t even know what RUclips was and only knew one other person that reloaded ammo…..let’s just say that I loaded up my 7mm rem mag to the point that I had to pry the bolt up. Man, did it ever CRACK at the shot! 😮😮😅
Well I just received my first box of alpha .308 brass a couple days ago, but I thank I'll stick to the normal recipes for my freedom seeds thou, I'm not that brave of a spelunker like you fine fellows.
Been loading for decades. Tinkered to above max here and there but., always followed the advice if you want a more powerful cartridge get a bigger cartridge.
E-Bay often has good used beam type scales for good prices, bought one years ago and still a great scale, much faster and easier to use than the Lee scale.
Given your backgrounds in both gunsmithing, reloading and ballistics... your channel is the one that I would put the highest level of trust in when researching the upper limits of a calibers performance. This is something that I have enjoyed doing for nearly fifty years. I have been lucky enough to be able to attend numerous conferences via ADPA/NDIA and to have the guidance of experts at the level of national labs, arsenals and proving grounds in the past with some of my projects. So the respect that I have for your channel is based on comparisons with some exceedingly strong backgrounds. My interests have included mostly interior and terminal ballistics with forays into exterior ballistics having to do aero thermal limits of projectiles. Internal ballistics checkpoints have been encountered in the both the areas of acceleration gradients and hyper-velocity gouging. Terminal ballistics limits and interior ballistics limits were ultimately determined by hydrodynamic and sound speed parameters especially where launch and impact physics transcended the communication (sound) speeds of the materials being studied! Studies undertaken in the Electro-Magnetic launch community have shown both hyper-velocity gouging and aero-thermal limits will occur in the low to mid 6,000 fps range (that may be attenuated somewhat by projectile/bore hardness tailoring) with aero-thermal limits (for tungsten/carbon nosetip projectiles) being encountered in the 3.5 km/sec. range. I have encountered the gouging phenomena multiple times with propellent guns in both .30 and .50 calibers... and it can happen with the very first shots in the high 6,000 - to low 7,000 fps range! These guns by the way are operating in pressure ranges of 200 - 250,000+psi where stuck cases have not been a problem when using the front part of a case' to locate the projectiles at the desired shot start location in barrels with significant throat erosion. Barrel life at these regimes are on the order of several dozen shots which can develop 8 - 10 inches of throat erosion. The brass case is vaporized! None of this is practical for a normal firearm and testing with them must be at a safe location with firing done remotely... even when testing is being done by DOD! Obviously, it's best to limit the bore diameters to.50 caliber and under to avoid coming within the NFA guidelines. All of the foregoing tests were either conducted by someone else (Aberdeen, Balcony...LLNL, et al.) or in the late 80's/early 90's, by me. The center fire cartridges that I have done extensive testing with included .600 Nitro vs. .50 Bmg and a .300 Chey-tac and .300 RUM vs. .30/378 Weatherby's. More recently developed a.50/416 (Rigby) that got surprisingly close to.50 BMG velocities with comparable projectiles. Back to your video... this is probably the most interesting and well documented video that I have seen in this genre...on U-tube! I don't know how you could have done a better job! These are the types of videos where my interests currently have been. Keep your powder dry (the importance of which would be an informative video)!
I am using this same brass with my 16" barrelled sig cross in .308. I am shhoting 180 grain sierra gamechangers to 2560 fps. Effortlessly. No pressure signs. No issues. Insane power. Short comact setup. No problems. Pure awesomeness!
@ChrisEdling I guess I should have rephrase the ? To what velocity can you get an still be very accurate load ? I had some velocities above 3400 but had better groups from turkey loads🤣 I only have couple powders I've been using an they probably have access to larger verity than I do so wanted to see if they got better results if they used a powder I didn't 🤷♂️
@@wesforker2352At those higher velocities were your ES and SD good? I shoot a lot of 95gr 6.5mm V-Max's and they don't like going much over 3k. ES and SD stay consistent but the groups start opening up
In germany EVERY gun that is sold has to go through a testing procedure where it is shot with 30% overpressure. There are some differences between handguns and rifles, but basicly that's it. The procedure is done with normal brass, loaded several times. And nearly 100% of the guns are fine. So, maybe the brass is not as important as many may think.
I have a MCX Spear in 308. If you know anything about these rifles, you know about the 6.8x51/.227 Fury high pressure rounds. SIG is now manufacturing those stainless rimmed high pressure casings loaded in 308 too. I love the idea of pushing the 308, it's a huge round!
This is a great video which highlights what i have heard about small primer pocket brass; you can shoot much hotter loads than with standard large primer pocket brass. I have small primer pocket alpha brass for 25 CM, 6 dasher and small primer pocket lapua for a 308 and small primer pocket for a 6 CM. Have you tested lapua or peterson to over 80k psi? Also when i see many "pet hot loads" on forums, your video proves what i assumed: most of these loads are substantially over 60k psi. Many are likely 65 to 70k but my experience is that most large rifle pocket brass will have loose pockets in 2 to 3 firings with high pressure loads, even with no stiff bolt lift, no extra case expansion at the web and minimal plunger/ejector marks. I have Gordon's reloading tool on my laptop which is similar to your computer program but mostly i load based on years of knowledge, powder burn rates, good load data, always using a chronograph, watching cases and primers; it's apparent from your test that high quality brass like Alpha, will not show tyoical pressure signs until the load is Waaayyy over max. It seens that loading to 70 to 75k psi with quality small primer pocket brass is "safe" and 60 to 65k psi with large primer brass is safe. For long term primer pocket life in normal brass, 55 to 60k range is probably ideal. Thank you again for producing quality vids with informative and in depth tests.
Unfortunately gordon died a couple years ago but his website was still up and i think his wife or a friend was running it. Its pretty impressive but generally i reload based more on experience and trying many variables with my chronograph, calipers, compact rcbs scale, battery pack, arbor press and wilson dies at the range. I do think Gordon's program and the program you use are very useful: they shorten the learning curve and prevent many reloading mistakes.
I live in NM. I loaded ammo in the winter with no signs of pressure, and shot it in multiple matches with it. At the July shoot I was blowing primers with a 6.5 Creedmoor @120F.
Wait what, 3 piece process? I assume you didn't mean the brass isn't made up from 3 individual pieces, right? You're talking about 3 brass forming procedures? Because I always though brass (or aluminium and steel) casings were made from a single piece, first a disc is punched out of a strip of brass, which is then progressively stretched, cut to length and necked?
I have been using the Alpha brass. In 6.5 CM with 147gr ELDM I have exceeded max with great results. The velocity is 2812 FPS with a 22” bbl. Very much enjoyed the 308 video. Thank you
Staggering! My initial thoughts were very not flattering towards this excursion. But I am quite surprised. Overall conclusions make sense overall. Thank you.
If you don't mind sharing, what brass, primer, and barrel length? I just got a Tikka 708. Don't have dies yet but considering it. I found 2 factory ammo that shoot extremely well so I bought 2 cases of each with the same LOT number. I have varget and multiple large rifle primer brands on hand, as well as 140 Nosler bullets
Thanks for the data and video Gavin! Very interesting results! Would love to see the combo of 7mm-08 with the 195 EOL bullet to see if they can get to 7mmWin mag velocities..
Excellent test of what can be done with the correct knowledge and precision equipment rig and components. I’m getting 2860 with N 540 and 175 RDF and lapua brass in a tikka super varmint so far holding up sds in the low teens and 4 firings and holding up. Just fine. Alpha may be tested after these cases are done
~45gn Varget .308 loads with the berger 208/215 hybrid is not uncommon in F-CLASS FTR competition. I know people getting 3-4 firings out of Lapua brass with loads at and above that. That's generally with a freebore of 0.200"+
@@alphamunitions5607 Just sharing first hand experience that pertains to the subject of the video from someone not sponsored by any of the companies involved. The alpha brass I've seen has been very good quality.
Pretty impressive work here. I love SRP 308 brasss. I’ve tested some lapua SRP brass in my 308 win, yielded ~100 fps more than some of my other loads in 150 grain. However if I was chasing 30 cal speed, I’d go with a 300 WSM. I like the shorter barrel efficiency, especially for suppressed hunting.
There is no replacement for displacement, and at the same time, military and civilian cartridges are going more extreme, and this proves that Alpha gives you some much needed "headroom" for those cartridges, and with extreme temps/conditions!
I shot Palma for many years and came to the humorous conclusion that Varget max load in just about any case was fill case to top and crunch the bullet in. If it springs back and pushes the bullet out, you reached max. Barnard action, 31" Krieger 1-10, 47 grains of Varget in a Lapua case, 155 Sierra and 3000fps 308 Win. Varget is the king of powders.
I am a knife maker and the gains we have made in materials and heat treatment in the last 10 years have been huge. That's made me start to look hard at guns were pressure has stayed the same for 100 years. Using modern material 100kpsi should be very possible. I think with 3d printers custom sabots should be a thing we look hard at. That would change so much about rifle and cartridge design. The new ideal cartridge would be a fat straight wall. This would give maximum area for the gas to work on with high performance from much shorter barrels. Higher pressure increases efficiency but doesn't increase gas volume. A closed muzzle break designed to slow down gas perhaps also diverting some would reduce volume as well as rocket thrusts as well as acting like a normal muzzle break and stripping the sabot. Barrels could also be made partially smooth bore and tapered to reduce volume for longer pressure curves and would be more resistant to erosion as well as having lower pressure allowing the use of faster powders. Gain twist rifling would be practical and wouldn't mare bullets. Another thing that could easily be done is add a thin layer of insulation to the inside of cases to help keep heat lost to a minimum. I have read that 30% of energy is lost to heating the brass.
I have been reading about cryo treating engine parts for longevity, metal treatments have really become incredible, some claims of 8x longevity in certain metals, that's just cryo treatment, theres also micro shot peening with dry lube impregnating the metals. We are shooting 100year old rifle loads but we have gone from 2hp to 2000hp road engines in that time frame. ...... I have been playing with HBN Hexagonal Boron Nitride lube for bullets and barrel, and I'm shooting a polygonal rifled Black Hole Weaponry barrel,,, no lands and grooves, and I have found incredible loads but I have only done this in 223. As you said a more straight walled and less overbore cartridge would be better, I want to play with 308 with HBN dry lube and poly twist barrel. The polygonal rifling and HBN keep pressures so low I keep buying faster burning powder and filling the cases more and more without pressure signs. 16" AR 223 53gr Barnes TSX, 26.9gr H322 and CCI450 primers, I am getting 3330fps with good accuracy. 65gr Sierra game king bullets I'm loading a full case of 26.4gr Benchmark. ... I would like to Cryo treat a rifle action and see just how much more pressure it can take... heck,,, cryo your brass, cryo treat primer cups...
Great presentation and very much appreciated! Although a 300 Win Mag seems a bit out of place with a 130 grain pill IMHO, Alliant Power Pro 2000 MR claims "308 Win. Speer 130 gr hp, Federal brass at 2.8" 24" barrel Fed 210 primer 2000-MR 53 grains at 3,100 fps". No worries, aint going there! I'm happy at 48 grains of the MR 2000 behind either the Sierra Game King Spitzer or hp 165gn, Lapua brass, Federal match primers. No chronograph, so no clue other than it did match my Boone and Crockett reticle exceptionally well. I'm going back to square one again with a receiver bedded Tikka T3 Lite in a Bell and Carlson Medalist sporter, scope went cross-eyed, so I've been refreshing and your video came up.
Way cool, Great data, well done. Sig is using rifle cases that are two piece. The unsupported portion of the casing is harder material than the body. Alpha is on the market so for now they win. Gain great work your methodology is spot on.
That was a little mind bending. Especially watching those 215 Bergers rock that steel, you won’t ever see a 308 smack steel like that. Hybrid cases, when they come around (and they will) are gonna re-write the whole game.
My rem 700 varmint comfortably pushes 168gr speer match bullets at 2820 fps with a factory 26 inch barrel and varget. I did push it to where I found pressure signs, but the velocity didn't make any real gains. Given the velocity and ES values I was getting, I was more than happy. I'm definitely in the mid range of most 30-06 factory loads. Pushing to 300 win mag wasn't even a thought lol. You're a wild man!
You guys are straight up crazy...and I respect you for that. Because the 308 can. Maybe in the future people can make a stronger case and action to make it a safe round.
Excellent! First class, grade A, top notch work. Had me flipping manual pages, comparing powder density burn rate chart's, and pulling up my personal favorite Vhitavouri load data. Sometimes I dig up an old out if date Lyman print and Metallic Cartridge Reloading third edition. I came up with two other powders I'd opt to see worked. Excellent shooting too,✌🏻👶🏻🚬 Smokin' baby!
Please read this entire comment, updated 04/01/2024
[DO NOT TRY THIS EXPERIMENT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM- this test was conducted with hands-on help from world-class experts]
A lot of you have missed the point of this video: This is a SCIENTIFIC TEST to demonstrate a few things:
1. The increased pressure capacity that Alpha Munitions brass can handle
2. The amazing strength of Bat actions, see ruclips.net/video/VkvFtlTEuSc/видео.html for more info
3. The IMPORTANT relationship between chamber, brass, and resizing die - see in-depth video here: ruclips.net/video/5oOdQbDq1kE/видео.html
This is NOT a suggestion that 308 Winchester can replace a 300 Win Mag.
[[[We got within 98.2% of Nosler's 300WM Max data]]] Here's the math: Nosler lists 10 powders/loads for 300WM 210 grain (average max load = 2807.8 fps), and 10 powders/loads for 300WM 220 grain (average max load = 2700.3 fps). The middle ground (215gr equivalent) between these is 2754.05 fps. We achieved 2706.3 here with 308, so that's 98.2% of what Nosler lists as equivalent 300WM max performance for a 215 grain bullet.
That's Noslers load data. You don't think you could push beyond that? Hard to believe you couldn't get more out of the 300 WM with a higher chamber pressure and larger case capacity. Would've been a cool video. Anyway, keep it up.
@@CommonsenseCapacity That's our 308 performance compared with Nosler's 300WM data :)
308 the same longer barrels slower powders
Gavin, that’s simply amazing that you were able to achieve that kind of pressure and still not get most of the signs usually seen, not even at 90 KPSI!! Great work!!👍👍
Forgive my ignorance. Does that mean that if it was possible to use steel case, you could have gone higher in pressure?
somewhere in kentucky a man named scott is touching his neck
OMG! You may be close to the mark!
Holy fuck 😂
😂😂😂 I hope Scott see this!!
Neck tingle
Can you post your email address Gavin please
I have a feeling Alpha Muntions will be busy cranking out .308 cases for many many months as a direct result of this video. 👏 Im a big fan. Great content. Thanks!
This experiment speaks volumes about the quality and structural strength of BAT actions, Alpha brass and Gavin’s machining work.
Thank you!
I've heard of cryo treating barrels, I'm rebuilding an engine now and reading about how much stronger cryo treated parts are, has anyone tried cryo treating an action and bolt to find out how much stronger it is???
@@RockKnocker17it really depends on the steel alloy, but for some, cryo treatment does indeed increase performance. This usually comes in the form of more toughness for the same hardness, or higher hardness for the same toughness. But other alloys don't benefit from it.
One of the few not clickbait videos i've seen in a long time. Good entertainment.
Thank you!
Well, then you're going to love my next video on how I've ramped up stock .45-70 cartridges to 4,950 ft/sec velocities and 20mm Oerlikon energy(50,000 ft/lbs), but with standard pressures, using 480gr lead flat nose "cowboy load" bullets. My PPPP(proprietary patent pending powder) is obviously incredibly impressive for black powder! 😁
Bubba's pissin'-hot handloads
Now, do this same test with a 300 Win Mag. 24-26" test barrel with the 215 gr. If you can reach 3100fps+ then you guys are certified badasses.
If Alpha made 300WM brass, I'd be all over that!
@@UltimatereloaderPeterson makes 300 Win Mag brass.
@@rsquared9703 Peterson makes their brass so good people are running in excess of proof pressure and getting 10x reloads on it.
@@randomidiot8142 proof is double the max pressure. Wherever you got that information is wrong
@@Ultimatereloader Broz on long range only has tons of data on the 300wm with 215's fyi
Ammo test was good and all, but I can’t get over the view! Absolutely stunning.
Thank you, my favorite place to go! :)
@Ultimatereloader are you up Mission Creek?
Glad see that you mic'd the case heads. I was so close to commenting mic the case heads in the first minute of the video and huge sigh of relief when you started mic'ing the case head
Lol, glad I read through some comments before I made the same statement.
@@billbennett9537definitely a comment worth making repeatedly. Started carrying my micrometer with me when testing hot ammo
most excellent concept and video! Would love to see same concept for 30-06 and 6.5 Creedmoor cases! Bravo!
Don’t try this at home!!!!
This is a great video on the subject of pressure signs and how they don’t equate to max load/ max pressure. I’ve used book listed velocity as a stopping point for 30 years for this reason.
That said, whether intentional or by accident, this may be the best advertisement for Alpha brass ever created.
Wish Alpha Brass made 22-250, .223, 22 or 17 Hornet brass.
Issue is, modern cartridges like the 308 and many of the most modern are quite straight in the body and that reduces the visible signs of pressure compared to older more "vedge" shaped..
@@jmkhenka The case taper? Yeah, .308 has much less taper than, say, a .22-250. I just found an old .22-250 round in one of my really old rifle cases (must have been my dad's as he had a .22-250) and I was comparing it with .308. First time I remember looking at a .22-250 and it seemed like there was a lot of room to blow the walls out straighter, use a sharper shoulder, and you could probably get a lot better performance... Though you'd probably want to run heavier pills/larger caliber so that it doesn't kill barrels even quicker!
Totally off-topic but as I was comparing the two I was thinking "why doesn't the military use a case this size" as they've been wanting to go back to short-action instead of intermediate. Seems like you could get better velo's creating a round with a COAL between the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO, Like a 2.5-2.6in COAL, with a powder reservoir in the middle of the two. I guess it's probably due to standardization of box magazine sizes and splitting the difference would require an entirely new magazine design.
But yeah, like a ".223 rem mag" or a ".7mm-08 special" , but not just adding/subtracting length, having the case head diameter split the difference as well. Get better velocities, flatter trajectory, longer effective ranges than an intermediate, while saving some weight and having less recoil than with a .243/6.5CM/.308. But maybe people have already tried it and the gains wouldn't warrant the cost of development...
Don't mind me, I'm just thinking to myself, lol
@@mfallen6894So something a bit like 6.5 Arisaka?
Outstanding! As a long-time fan and user of the 308 Winchester, I am amazed at the results obtained. :)
Any video that says “don’t try this” I can’t click on fast enough 😅
Can't beat a good disclaimer! :)
Yup
I see .308, I see .300 win mag. I click. .30 cal is where the party is at! Super cool work!
Likewise.🫡
@@notyouraveragegoldenpotato Thank you!
No click bait here! Thanks Gavin!!!
The 308 Winchester has been underrated for a long time it will suprise you what it can do
Absolutely amazing video guys. I’m fairly new to long range precision shooting but I’ve come a long way this past year. I lost my leg while in a coma from Covid 19. So since hunting was so much trouble I dove right in to target shooting, starting with rimfires. I watch your channel pretty often. Y’all take care from South Louisiana.
Mike
Wow, sorry to hear about your leg, and glad that you are finding great ways to enjoy shooting sports, thanks for supporting our channel!
@@Ultimatereloader Hey thanks so much for the reply. I did want to say we got our 1st 1000yard range just last October. I had 8 impacts out of 10 shooting their 6.5 Creedmore. I always would shoot on the pipeline at the camp but our sport of long range precision shooting had yet to take off. I am so happy to see how far it has come in very recent years. Anyways, thank y’all so much for the work y’all put in making videos. I’m sure it’s not as easy as most people think it is. Take care
Key insights:
1.) Case head pressure signs are depended on the type of primer, brass, and bolt face.
2.) A case failure will most likely ruin your action and could injure you.
3.) With strong brass, case head pressure signs don't appear until you are well over SAAMI levels.
4.) Alpha brass w/ SRP is tough stuff.
I would love to see you test brass life w/ the 44.0 charge (did not show extractor swipe and estimated 80kpsi)
Make wise decisions people....
At the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious here are a few more factors to consider about this exercise:
1.a) Precision reloading equipment, instruments and techniques to match the loaded round as close as possible to a specific action and chamber.
2.a) A high quality action mated to a barrel chambered by a very competent smith. Everything about this rifle and the ammo is TOP QUALITY.
Bottom line: You wouldn't shoot this ammo in any other rifle because this load development is very specific to this one single rifle. Don't try this with a mass produced off-the-shelf rifle that by design has much looser tolerances - that's why we have SAAMI specs.
Ask Scott about his serbu .50 cal accident.
You guys are nuts. Definitely a do not try at home load. I flirt with the max recommended pressures with a lot of my handloads. This is another level. Especially with that bullet mass. Fascinating to watch and a little horrifying the whole way. Truly impressive results.
I'll add to the chorus. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!
:)
@@Ultimatereloaderive been testing pure zinc rounds. Still not sure about instant pressure for seating depth/internal space vs the lighter weight of the projectiles fired. Would think a lighter bullet seated at the same depth would exhibit less pressure. I tend to load hot and shallow seat as much as possible anyway. But?
Excellent video and appreciate the multiple safety warnings. We worked up a 300 H&H full case load with a flat base 150 grain bullet that shot fine in my pre 64 model 70 Winchester. Took one shot in a friend's Remington model 721 and had a stiff bolt opening with brass and primer pressure signs. Much caution required to be safe when pushing loads.
Good work men.
A cut-away of Alpha brass vs other brands would be a perfect addition to these videos.
Keep pushing the limits so we can all continue to learn more! Great video, great components, great gear, & great guys.
Thanks, will do!
Ackley would be proud of you guys for this one!
WELL SAID! Too many safety Karen's around here.
I would love to see this same video, but with 300 win mag max loads.
Yep me too. Woundering if it can hit 300rum range? Then what could the rum do? Not that I would ever try it but curiosity got me thinking lol
@coryszeman8572 I have the 300 win tricked out but there isn't anywhere near me to do it myself without traveling
In the early 90’s Handloader had an article using VV-550 to load the 308 to 30-06 levels. As a new handloader this sounded great. I proceeded to work up to their max charge weight and lo and behold my 20” .308 was achieving 24” 30-06 velocities with 165 gr bullets. Unfortunately the brass no longer retained the spent primers and thus ended my high performance 308 loads. This was either Winchester or Remington brass: I was content to load the 308 as a 308
I used to take my Weatherby chambered in 30-06 to 300 win mag velocities all of the time. My primers never bulged, my brass never stuck or swelled and I never had any problems of any kind. It also shot my 3100fps 150gr boattails to minute and below groups. It was my favorite Pronghorn and Mule Deer rifle for years.
I bet the muzzle brake was working good...... I loaded BLC-2 to the max LEE book load with 155gr ELD M. I stuck 2 cases out of 3 & blew out 2 primers.... I felt no recoil. I fell for the brass that said reamed trimmed & ready to load. They sell 308 & 223 brass in plastic jugs won't name them. You sold me on the Alpha Brass. Don't worry I will not try this but great video
Same here with junk hornady brass
308 is no slouch . Did similar tests in 1965-66 at a mile . I was impressed then , knew how u do now . Nice job !
I load my 300 win mag long. 76gr h1000, Berger 215gr hybrid at 2900 fps.. you guys are nuts for even cracking 2700 in a 308 lol
I compress varget, 195g smk through a ar 10 ,just barely flattens primers
Those last 2 or 3 test I'd of been pulling the trigger with a string & hiding behind something..that was nuts & even more nuts that it handled it well & you guys still have your faces ..lol..great video guys 👍
Why? The brass will show you everything you need to know long before you need to use a string to pull trigger hiding behind a tree! That along with sticky bolt !
@@jonah-n8l And also have realy strong action.
I have done certain experiments I won't detail here, but this confirms my thoughts and observations from results I have gotten. To get more out of a cartridge, the brass needs to be tougher to handle higher pressures. With such brass, cartridges can be more efficient with powder to velocity. Interesting to see if we can redefine the limits of our cartridges with better brass.
308 Gavin improved brass
They are exceeding the yield limit of brass. Their chamber is supporting everything the brass can not flow because they have blocked off all escape routes for the brass. It is not just the brass that is holding it together.
30" barrel, throat to except that bullet pushed way out and a honed chamber to hold that brass better. .000 headspace, that thing will be sing'en!
277 fury is the brass you’re looking for
@@K-bob_45 yep. I've reloaded mine 6-7 times at.. HIGH.. pressure and they're fine.
As a hand loader this is equal parts scary, funny in a wow sort of way and surprising. Very interesting but I will continue to never go above the listed load data, if you need more power step up to a more powerful cartridge, this video does a good job at illustrating just how fast the pressure increases with every grain added.
I'm perplexed, how does one overpressure a cartridge with a powder that is nearly impossible to overpressure in said cartridge? On top of that, not deforming the ogive or meplat?
MEtALlurGy hAs GoTTen sO gOOd +p+ iS JusT a sugGesTioN 😂
phillhuddleston,
I never, well, Almost never, say never... ☆
@@fjb4932 True.
@@PBVader Good point, max loads are usually a slightly compressed load with 168 gr bullets and with as long and heavy of bullets as they are shooting I would think it would be difficult to get that much powder in the case.
Looking at those pressure signs in the brass made my skin crawl! Thank goodness I'm not nearly as adventurous as you people when it comes to reloading!
Incredible to see the maximum potential, of the caliber, no matter how horribly dangerous.
No Kentucky Ballistics collab for this one?
Those are good guys over there!
He's got enough holes without needing more
😂
Avoid SLAP rounds
No horrible idea. Do not even let Kentucky see this.
When you deal with tight tolerances, premium consumables, etc this is the result.Intriguing video.
In my rem 5R, I ran 185gr Berger Juggs to almost 2800fps using PP-2000-MR powder. The best load was closer to 2750, and now it has slowed down to under 2700, but still shoots the same. 1400yds on a silhouette is tough, but doable.
Thank you for this Video ! Very Interesting I have been reloading mine 308 at 43 grns And thats for me and my rifle sig blazer sweet spot , with a 168grn bullet tack driver for me!
Now this was fascinating! Would love to see other cartridges tested like this. 556, 6.5cm, 7mm, maybe even 338?
Somewhere in that great gun room in the sky, Ken Waters is smiling and nodding his head in approval. :)
Very cool guys. I love watching two gunsmiths seeing what they can do lol.
Thank you for watching!
Good to hear about bat machine. I hope Bruce and everyone are doing well. Back in the 80s there was a high-power shooter selling steel replacement case heads for 308 or 30 ought 6 cases. They were giving me the same 80,000 PSI pressures that sig is boasting about for their new cartridge.
Me shooting a 308 and 300 win setup I was setting up my 300 195 eld with 69 grains of h4350 with testing today and this has me stoked to try some new loads with 308. Thanks Gavin for all the intel. Im gonna show this to Ray helms when he gets back from vacation see what he thinks for the mile challenge next month
Varget is a better powder for 308.
Quite a Few years ago, I Bought 500 Rounds of some .300 Win Mag ammo from someone online. The ammo was Factory Loads and the Boxes were the White Cardboard like you can get from Midway with labels that had all of the Load data. The OAL and Powder Charge (IMR 4350) were well over anything I could find in any Reloading Data. So I contacted Federal and asked them if the ammo was safe to use. They told me that the ammo I had was Custom loaded for the US Navy's Long Range Competition and I should NOT shoot them in any Commercial Rifles. So I took the rounds apart and reloaded them to a "Safe" Charge weight and OAL. I still haven't shot any of them yet, LOL!
I’ve done .5 grains more then what my max load was reusing the hornady brass with Cci 250 primers. Then I reversed engineered the original load found out the 195 eld match was 68.4 grains of imr 4350 so with 69 to 70 I’m ok.
@@rodneyferguson446 IMR 4350 burns too fast for the 300 Win.Mag. The best powder I have found is IMR 4831 or RL 22. I use 74 gr. IMR 4831 with a 180 gr. bullet as my standard load for elk hunting and I get sub 3/4" MOA out of my Remmington 700 at 3100 fps.. My Winchester doesn't like the 180 grain bullets, but shoots sub MOA with a 200 grain flat base bullet. I performs best with 73.5 gr. IMR 7828 at 2850 fps. If you shoot a copper bullet or one with a thick copper case (Trophy Bonded) reduce the powder about 2 grains in both examples.
This is honestly now my favorite UR video. Every aspect of it. Layout/presentation, loading, testing, data, and even some long range! Nice first round impact @ 1,300+ Gavin! 6.5 CM with CCI 450's or 6.5 PRC Peterson or Lapua with Mag primers as well, would both be interesting tests. Thanks for sharing a glimpse of the bleeding edge of DNS (do not shoot) performance. Moore 25 Creedmoor, before Hornady announces it!
Alpha Brass cautions reloaders about unreliable pressure signs with it's brass. It is super brass for reasons.
Peterson also. It's in their product descriptions everywhere.
@@randomidiot8142starline has the small primer 308 brass too although i think theirs is the standard flash hole size. Tried lapua brass with the .059 flash hole size and didn’t really notice any hang fire. Not like in a flintlock anyway
Great ammo test and testing long range with the load was cool to see in some beautiful country that is what hunters experience out west. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Great video. You took it to the limit with the data and great range shooting.
Thank you!
Been there, did it, done it, on my Ruger American and 450 bushmaster. The same action in the American 450 BM is used on the 300 win mag which is rated almost 64,000 psi if I remember. I ran a ladder test all the way to 460 S&W max load book data with zero pressure signs. Never tried it again but there were zero case or primer pressure signs and no hard bolt lift all the way to max.
Then you never hit max load ! Your max load is not the written standard max load ! Every chamber is a lil different
I believe the chambering, the barrel strength, and action strength along with the Alpha brass has to be right or one could be asking for a trip to the hospital or even the morgue. PEOPLE PLEASE BE CAREFUL. Thanks Gavin for a great video and very informative stats.
Before your panties get too wadded up, consider that the same basic receivers are used for .338 lapuas as .300 win mags and .308s. .700" bolt bodies and 2 lugs is very very common. The thrust from a .308 case vs a Lapua case makes the receiver very overbuilt for .308 or marginal for .338 Lapua, but no one gets bent over Lapua loads that are inherently more dangerous.
Pressures are likely to go up to 62000?
In 308, my accuracy load of 44.0 grs. VARGET/Hornady 168 gr. AMAX/ELD-M/Hornady brass/CCI 400. 2700 fps from 26" barrel on a trued Remington action with bushed firing pin. Rifle was built 28 years ago. I need to upgrade my equipment. Excellent video!
For a inside joke should of worn Kentucky ballistics “put a thumb in it” shirt but great info curious on what a standard rem700 action can hold up to now
Let me know! I like mine as it is, don't have the inclination to ruin a good shooting rifle.
My best 300WM load to date: 225 ELDM VO= 2,905 76.6 H1000 FEDGMM .88 inch 5 shot group 36deg F 100 yards 10mph wind - 26" preferred barrel on a Howa 1500 Action. 31ES 12.1SD, people at the range always ask if the rifle is a 300PRC. I say what's the point if you are staying under 230 grains... Love your content!
With a high quality action, small firing pin, no ejector, you get pressure signs further. Then you add a longer freebore, a longer barrel and you get a .308mag
32" .308 f-tr build, done.
I remember my youthful days of getting into reloading and I didn’t even know what RUclips was and only knew one other person that reloaded ammo…..let’s just say that I loaded up my 7mm rem mag to the point that I had to pry the bolt up. Man, did it ever CRACK at the shot! 😮😮😅
Well I just received my first box of alpha .308 brass a couple days ago, but I thank I'll stick to the normal recipes for my freedom seeds thou, I'm not that brave of a spelunker like you fine fellows.
Been loading for decades. Tinkered to above max here and there but., always followed the advice if you want a more powerful cartridge get a bigger cartridge.
What I’d give for everything on that table…preferably that scale gavin…used a lee beam set 4yrs and need to upgrade
E-Bay often has good used beam type scales for good prices, bought one years ago and still a great scale, much faster and easier to use than the Lee scale.
Given your backgrounds in both gunsmithing, reloading and ballistics... your channel is the one that I would put the highest level of trust in when researching the upper limits of a calibers performance. This is something that I have enjoyed doing for nearly fifty years. I have been lucky enough to be able to attend numerous conferences via ADPA/NDIA and to have the guidance of experts at the level of national labs, arsenals and proving grounds in the past with some of my projects. So the respect that I have for your channel is based on comparisons with some exceedingly strong backgrounds. My interests have included mostly interior and terminal ballistics with forays into exterior ballistics having to do aero thermal limits of projectiles. Internal ballistics checkpoints have been encountered in the both the areas of acceleration gradients and hyper-velocity gouging.
Terminal ballistics limits and interior ballistics limits were ultimately determined by hydrodynamic and sound speed parameters especially where launch and impact physics transcended the communication (sound) speeds of the materials being studied!
Studies undertaken in the Electro-Magnetic launch community have shown both hyper-velocity gouging and aero-thermal limits will occur in the low to mid 6,000 fps range (that may be attenuated somewhat by projectile/bore hardness tailoring) with aero-thermal limits (for tungsten/carbon nosetip projectiles) being encountered in the 3.5 km/sec. range.
I have encountered the gouging phenomena multiple times with propellent guns in both .30 and .50 calibers... and it can happen with the very first shots in the high 6,000 - to low 7,000 fps range! These guns by the way are operating in pressure ranges of 200 - 250,000+psi where stuck cases have not been a problem when using the front part of a case' to locate the projectiles at the desired shot start location in barrels with significant throat erosion. Barrel life at these regimes are on the order of several dozen shots which can develop 8 - 10 inches of throat erosion. The brass case is vaporized! None of this is practical for a normal firearm and testing with them must be at a safe location with firing done remotely... even when testing is being done by DOD! Obviously, it's best to limit the bore diameters to.50 caliber and under to avoid coming within the NFA guidelines. All of the foregoing tests were either conducted by someone else (Aberdeen, Balcony...LLNL, et al.) or in the late 80's/early 90's, by me.
The center fire cartridges that I have done extensive testing with included .600 Nitro vs. .50 Bmg and a .300 Chey-tac and .300 RUM vs. .30/378 Weatherby's. More recently developed a.50/416 (Rigby) that got surprisingly close to.50 BMG velocities with comparable projectiles.
Back to your video... this is probably the most interesting and well documented video that I have seen in this genre...on U-tube! I don't know how you could have done a better job!
These are the types of videos where my interests currently have been. Keep your powder dry (the importance of which would be an informative video)!
I am using this same brass with my 16" barrelled sig cross in .308. I am shhoting 180 grain sierra gamechangers to 2560 fps. Effortlessly. No pressure signs. No issues. Insane power. Short comact setup. No problems. Pure awesomeness!
Nice results!
I'd like to see yal see how fast an accurate you can push 110vmax in the 308 I've only loaded for accuracy with them with sub 1/2" groups at 3050fps
@@wesforker2352north of 3200 forsure
@ChrisEdling I guess I should have rephrase the ? To what velocity can you get an still be very accurate load ? I had some velocities above 3400 but had better groups from turkey loads🤣 I only have couple powders I've been using an they probably have access to larger verity than I do so wanted to see if they got better results if they used a powder I didn't 🤷♂️
@@wesforker2352At those higher velocities were your ES and SD good? I shoot a lot of 95gr 6.5mm V-Max's and they don't like going much over 3k. ES and SD stay consistent but the groups start opening up
I liked seeing that old Weatherby box on the shelf. I have a few of those floating around too!
In germany EVERY gun that is sold has to go through a testing procedure where it is shot with 30% overpressure. There are some differences between handguns and rifles, but basicly that's it.
The procedure is done with normal brass, loaded several times. And nearly 100% of the guns are fine. So, maybe the brass is not as important as many may think.
AWSOME video focused on safety and performance
I found the fact that 1 gr = 50 fps very interesting. I've seen this same thing in my testing.
Damn. I was looking at quickload velocity not actual😅😅😅
I have a MCX Spear in 308. If you know anything about these rifles, you know about the 6.8x51/.227 Fury high pressure rounds. SIG is now manufacturing those stainless rimmed high pressure casings loaded in 308 too. I love the idea of pushing the 308, it's a huge round!
This is a great video which highlights what i have heard about small primer pocket brass; you can shoot much hotter loads than with standard large primer pocket brass. I have small primer pocket alpha brass for 25 CM, 6 dasher and small primer pocket lapua for a 308 and small primer pocket for a 6 CM. Have you tested lapua or peterson to over 80k psi? Also when i see many "pet hot loads" on forums, your video proves what i assumed: most of these loads are substantially over 60k psi. Many are likely 65 to 70k but my experience is that most large rifle pocket brass will have loose pockets in 2 to 3 firings with high pressure loads, even with no stiff bolt lift, no extra case expansion at the web and minimal plunger/ejector marks.
I have Gordon's reloading tool on my laptop which is similar to your computer program but mostly i load based on years of knowledge, powder burn rates, good load data, always using a chronograph, watching cases and primers; it's apparent from your test that high quality brass like Alpha, will not show tyoical pressure signs until the load is Waaayyy over max. It seens that loading to 70 to 75k psi with quality small primer pocket brass is "safe" and 60 to 65k psi with large primer brass is safe. For long term primer pocket life in normal brass, 55 to 60k range is probably ideal.
Thank you again for producing quality vids with informative and in depth tests.
Thank you for watching and for sharing from your experience (I need to learn GRT!)
Unfortunately gordon died a couple years ago but his website was still up and i think his wife or a friend was running it. Its pretty impressive but generally i reload based more on experience and trying many variables with my chronograph, calipers, compact rcbs scale, battery pack, arbor press and wilson dies at the range. I do think Gordon's program and the program you use are very useful: they shorten the learning curve and prevent many reloading mistakes.
I run petersons small pocket primer in my .308 ! It’s even better than lapua brass imo
Holy smokes guys! This was incredible but insane at the same time! Awesome to see actual MAX EFFORT 308 loads.
I always wanted to do that, but I like my face how it is.
Good call!
I live in NM. I loaded ammo in the winter with no signs of pressure, and shot it in multiple matches with it. At the July shoot I was blowing primers with a 6.5 Creedmoor @120F.
Alpha Vs. Sig Sauer…. One piece process Vs. 3 piece process.
I believe Sig has it down to a two-piece case now.
Wait what, 3 piece process? I assume you didn't mean the brass isn't made up from 3 individual pieces, right? You're talking about 3 brass forming procedures? Because I always though brass (or aluminium and steel) casings were made from a single piece, first a disc is punched out of a strip of brass, which is then progressively stretched, cut to length and necked?
@@pieterveenders9793 sig fury steel head 80000 psi cases.
@@pieterveenders9793SIG has a hybrid steel + brass case made out of 3 pieces, RUAG Swiss P uses 2 components.
@@GiolliJokerIncorrect. SIG have reduced the case to two pieces. Nominal pressure rating of 80,000 but possible to push over 100,000.
I have been using the Alpha brass. In 6.5 CM with 147gr ELDM I have exceeded max with great results. The velocity is 2812 FPS with a 22” bbl.
Very much enjoyed the 308 video. Thank you
The videos thumbnail is pretty good 😂
Thank you :)
Serious question or thought. Could you neck up the .277 Fury hybrid case and be able to use its steel case head to handle more pressure more safely?
Perhaps
Other commenters say sig is making steel head 308
I already did. It's just brass.
Staggering! My initial thoughts were very not flattering towards this excursion. But I am quite surprised. Overall conclusions make sense overall. Thank you.
Thanks for watching! It was pretty crazy to do this test :)
I run 7mm08 with Varget nosler 140 AB near 7 mag velocities. Super neat round.
If you don't mind sharing, what brass, primer, and barrel length? I just got a Tikka 708. Don't have dies yet but considering it. I found 2 factory ammo that shoot extremely well so I bought 2 cases of each with the same LOT number. I have varget and multiple large rifle primer brands on hand, as well as 140 Nosler bullets
I wondered what could be done with a 7-08AI from 308 Palma brass... Maybe get 2900 with a 162? 😅
Browning xbolt 20" barrel Lapua 308 Palma brass
Cci br4 45.4 Varget 140 nosAB HBN coated 3015 fps 3600' elevation
@@jakeblack4095 thanks
I have a savage 10 7mm-08 20” I run rem primer Nosler brass 42.7g of varget for 3034fps 120 Barnes ttsx 1/4” moa …. SD-5 ES-14
Thanks for the data and video Gavin! Very interesting results! Would love to see the combo of 7mm-08 with the 195 EOL bullet to see if they can get to 7mmWin mag velocities..
Huuuh, if my primer blows out, is that a max charge?
😂! I’ve had one blow out! Fked my bolt up
Excellent test of what can be done with the correct knowledge and precision equipment rig and components.
I’m getting 2860 with N 540 and 175 RDF and lapua brass in a tikka super varmint so far holding up sds in the low teens and 4 firings and holding up. Just fine. Alpha may be tested after these cases are done
Space Balls here with LUDICROUS speed...... hahahahaa
I'm running the 208 eld m in our 308 with ALOT of success!
~45gn Varget .308 loads with the berger 208/215 hybrid is not uncommon in F-CLASS FTR competition. I know people getting 3-4 firings out of Lapua brass with loads at and above that. That's generally with a freebore of 0.200"+
This is mag feeding in a .096" freebore chamber.
@@alphamunitions5607 Just sharing first hand experience that pertains to the subject of the video from someone not sponsored by any of the companies involved. The alpha brass I've seen has been very good quality.
Pretty impressive work here. I love SRP 308 brasss. I’ve tested some lapua SRP brass in my 308 win, yielded ~100 fps more than some of my other loads in 150 grain.
However if I was chasing 30 cal speed, I’d go with a 300 WSM. I like the shorter barrel efficiency, especially for suppressed hunting.
Who thinks Gavin looks like a CIA hitman?
That scope cam at 23:52 is so cool! You see the bullet and then a perfect center punch on target.
This is when I recommend “getting a bigger boat.”
If you want to push velocity; just get a bigger cartridge.
Cool experiment though!
There is no replacement for displacement, and at the same time, military and civilian cartridges are going more extreme, and this proves that Alpha gives you some much needed "headroom" for those cartridges, and with extreme temps/conditions!
You guys were living the dream I would love to be able to pursue in this video.
Theres your Charged Cases..... And you primed them already ?... Who in their right mind would prime a case AFTER charging it lol
I shot Palma for many years and came to the humorous conclusion that Varget max load in just about any case was fill case to top and crunch the bullet in. If it springs back and pushes the bullet out, you reached max. Barnard action, 31" Krieger 1-10, 47 grains of Varget in a Lapua case, 155 Sierra and 3000fps 308 Win. Varget is the king of powders.
Why? Despite the warning, someone will try to blow their face of any way.
people do it anyways on a regular basis
@@SigmaBallisticsthen they should film it and post it on RUclips. I like a good "told you so" story.
I am a knife maker and the gains we have made in materials and heat treatment in the last 10 years have been huge. That's made me start to look hard at guns were pressure has stayed the same for 100 years. Using modern material 100kpsi should be very possible. I think with 3d printers custom sabots should be a thing we look hard at. That would change so much about rifle and cartridge design. The new ideal cartridge would be a fat straight wall. This would give maximum area for the gas to work on with high performance from much shorter barrels. Higher pressure increases efficiency but doesn't increase gas volume. A closed muzzle break designed to slow down gas perhaps also diverting some would reduce volume as well as rocket thrusts as well as acting like a normal muzzle break and stripping the sabot. Barrels could also be made partially smooth bore and tapered to reduce volume for longer pressure curves and would be more resistant to erosion as well as having lower pressure allowing the use of faster powders. Gain twist rifling would be practical and wouldn't mare bullets.
Another thing that could easily be done is add a thin layer of insulation to the inside of cases to help keep heat lost to a minimum. I have read that 30% of energy is lost to heating the brass.
I have been reading about cryo treating engine parts for longevity, metal treatments have really become incredible, some claims of 8x longevity in certain metals, that's just cryo treatment, theres also micro shot peening with dry lube impregnating the metals. We are shooting 100year old rifle loads but we have gone from 2hp to 2000hp road engines in that time frame. ...... I have been playing with HBN Hexagonal Boron Nitride lube for bullets and barrel, and I'm shooting a polygonal rifled Black Hole Weaponry barrel,,, no lands and grooves, and I have found incredible loads but I have only done this in 223. As you said a more straight walled and less overbore cartridge would be better, I want to play with 308 with HBN dry lube and poly twist barrel. The polygonal rifling and HBN keep pressures so low I keep buying faster burning powder and filling the cases more and more without pressure signs. 16" AR 223 53gr Barnes TSX, 26.9gr H322 and CCI450 primers, I am getting 3330fps with good accuracy. 65gr Sierra game king bullets I'm loading a full case of 26.4gr Benchmark. ... I would like to Cryo treat a rifle action and see just how much more pressure it can take... heck,,, cryo your brass, cryo treat primer cups...
Great presentation and very much appreciated!
Although a 300 Win Mag seems a bit out of place with a 130 grain pill IMHO, Alliant Power Pro 2000 MR claims "308 Win. Speer 130 gr hp, Federal brass at 2.8" 24" barrel Fed 210 primer 2000-MR 53 grains at 3,100 fps".
No worries, aint going there!
I'm happy at 48 grains of the MR 2000 behind either the Sierra Game King Spitzer or hp 165gn, Lapua brass, Federal match primers.
No chronograph, so no clue other than it did match my Boone and Crockett reticle exceptionally well.
I'm going back to square one again with a receiver bedded Tikka T3 Lite in a Bell and Carlson Medalist sporter, scope went cross-eyed, so I've been refreshing and your video came up.
Living every young handloader's dream!
Way cool, Great data, well done. Sig is using rifle cases that are two piece. The unsupported portion of the casing is harder material than the body. Alpha is on the market so for now they win. Gain great work your methodology is spot on.
Great video …can’t imagine the time you gentleman have invested in this video
That was a little mind bending. Especially watching those 215 Bergers rock that steel, you won’t ever see a 308 smack steel like that.
Hybrid cases, when they come around (and they will) are gonna re-write the whole game.
Sitting here trying to decide what to say. And all I can come up with to say is…. Amazing!
Just crazy but great to see all the data then the 1,390yd shot.
Thank you- it was AMAZING to see all of this come together!
My rem 700 varmint comfortably pushes 168gr speer match bullets at 2820 fps with a factory 26 inch barrel and varget. I did push it to where I found pressure signs, but the velocity didn't make any real gains. Given the velocity and ES values I was getting, I was more than happy. I'm definitely in the mid range of most 30-06 factory loads. Pushing to 300 win mag wasn't even a thought lol. You're a wild man!
You guys are straight up crazy...and I respect you for that. Because the 308 can. Maybe in the future people can make a stronger case and action to make it a safe round.
Excellent! First class, grade A, top notch work. Had me flipping manual pages, comparing powder density burn rate chart's, and pulling up my personal favorite Vhitavouri load data. Sometimes I dig up an old out if date Lyman print and Metallic Cartridge Reloading third edition. I came up with two other powders I'd opt to see worked. Excellent shooting too,✌🏻👶🏻🚬 Smokin' baby!
Thank you for watching and engaging in the data, love it!
when are you doing 6.5 creedmoor and 300 win mag like this . awesome learned a lot from this...thank you
I'd like to be able to have small primer .243 brass. Your gunsmithing was spot on.
Very entertaining, informative, and eye-opening. Not that I will ever try this.