Great info. Just rewired my sons detached garage sub panel that was totally done wrong by previous owner that did not have full understanding of "Local and National" NEC. They had bonded the Neutral and Ground buss with the 'GREEN' screw. MANY other bad wiring issues too. And the MAIN panel inside the house was also done wrong as it is a Modular Home and the 'Main' disconnect is on the power pole strike detached from the house, so the first panel inside is also a Sub Panel and it too was bonded with the GREEN screw. Again, many bad wiring issues inside, open grounds and loose HOT and Neutrals at outlets and switches. Retired "Pole Dancer" and low volt electrician of 43 years. Did High voltage Power Line work until my knees said no more hiking poles.
Depends on how old it is. I remember 32 years ago we were not required to use the 4th wire and the ground and neutral were together. Today the detached sub panel requires 4 wire plus it own ground electrode and ground electrode conductor (ground rod and wire).
I just added added a Square D sub-panel off my main. It is a lot nicer than my existing HC/Eaton panel. I have a lot of DIY electrical experience and I spend a lot of time looking up code when I'm working on projects. You did convince me to finally order a torque screwdriver. One additional step I took was to coat my exposed leads with anti-corrosion grease. My panels are in the garage and I'm fairly close to the ocean.
Just an observation. On the main coming into the subpanel i usually put a loop there so if something should happen there is enough wire to change it. Ive never had to change it in any panel though. The other thing that loop does is release tension on the wires at where they come out of conduit. Although once done everything should be secured at entrance in each box.
I installed a lot of120/240 , 120/208, 240, & 480/277 volt single & three phase subpanels and never ran a ground from anything BUT the panel that feeds it. Did not see you seal the wires in outside of conduit to prevent condensation build up. Did not see him install the required gasket on the 1" LB. On my own house I ran a jumper ground to each of those ground bars and not depend on screws to provide a path for thousands of amps during a short circuit. The NEC has never allowed you to screw a chase hippie into any coupling ( not what u called coupler ) . Reason being rigid electrical couplings have a tapered thread and chase hippie do not have tapered threads. I would have ran a copper ground wire from service panel to sub panel and go the extra yard and install a not code required grounding lock but or grounding bushing on 1" EMT connector inside service panel. If you are in the Latest NEC code cycle you would need combination AFCI breakers for all circuits 50 amps and less in the garage. ( both 120'& 240 volt circuits ). Some locations do not require that for hard wired 50 amp 240 volt EV chargers.
Had he not stated that the wall was load bearing, I would not have caught it, but the method of supporting the cut stud clearly doesn’t look sufficient and would fail a structural inspection. It’s probably going to be fine, but not done “properly.” I also would have expected the ground to need to go all the way back to the main panel as opposed to being grounded to the ground rod. If that wall gets all covered up with drywall, as is probably the intention of inserting the panel into the studs, then this all becomes much harder to inspect. My gut reaction is that it should be a panel on top of the studs instead of inserting it into the studs. I’m not an electrician, but do like making sure everything is done to meet code or at least be very easy to update to meet code. Support studs should be added before that wall is closed up.
I tuned out after he said wall was load bearing and said he had installed "jack studs" and bonded neutral and ground together not too sure he knows enough to be teaching others@mknmike
From looking through the comments it seems the ground outside the main panel directly to the ground rod is the top issue mentioned. Most say there should be a 4th wire in the conduit with the lines as a dedicated ground within the main panel. Also with the four wires (if the ground is included) the conduit should be upsized to be within the 40% rule. Other than that, great job. Thanks for the video. Nicely done. Good camera work, editing and a clear explanation. Appreciate you.
Thank you for the informative video. I would caution everyone about the use of a metal tape measure, however, as seen around the 7:30 minute mark. It is generally advisable to use non-conductive measuring tools around exposed electrical wiring. Folding rules made of wood or non-conductive plastic would be preferable to the metal tape measure in this application.
I'm pretty sure the grounding conductor has to be run with the other conductors and sized according. If someone disconnects your bogus ground wire at the Ufer, then the panel is ungrounded except by the metal conduit. Use the right size conduit, this is a feeder.
I'm trying to understand this as per NEC. I can't find anything that states that they all need to come in via the same feeder, especially when the ground is going to the same UFER as the main. I'm not saying I definitely have it right - I just can't find a clear explanation of this. Also, how is my connection at the UFER any more "bogus" than the original to the main? I used the another of the exact same ground clamp that the main is connected with, and why would someone disconnect that? I appreciate your feedback on this - I absolutely want to understand this and do it right. Happy to rewire this if need be.
@@damnyouramen thank you; I was wondering about that also. I've heard the subpanel ground should not be tied to the neutral in the subpanel, but just run back to the main panel where the neutral and ground are linked. So, it makes sense that the subpanel ground should not be tied to a different earth ground. Unfortunately, my detached garage subpanel has all the neutrals and grounds tied together. I may have to call an electrician in one day to unwind that.
@@LRN2DIY NEC 250.110 says it needs to be connected to an _equipment grounding conductor._ The connection to the ground rod could might only be considered a _grounding electrode conductor._ Whether or not it's allowed might be a gray area it but it's definitely preferred to get ground from the main panel. A major goal is to provide an effective path for fault current, and this fault current goes back to the main panel's neutral-ground bond jumper. As 250.118 considers EMT a grounded conductor you should be all set provided everything is clean. It's not clear to me if your "bonus" connection to the rod is acceptable or not. It would definitely be okay to run the subpanel's ground wire inside the EMT as extra insurance. If I'm not mistaken it wouldn't count towards conduit fill.
Personally if I were doing this job not only would the equipment ground be run with the other conductors but I would have put a bonding busing on the conduit. It is not clear if his field installed hole is going to make a good connection
Yes, good point. It all needs to be sealed at the point of entry. I get so worried about the 150 sections of code to consider that I inevitably forget to show some of the more obvious steps!
I had to strip some big 1 or 2 gauge wire not to long ago. I used a baby pipe cutter for copper tubing. I never seen it done before but it was in my hands reach when I was needing to strip them to make battery cables for my old 53 Chevy truck. I had them out as I used copper tubbing that just fit over then I crimp and solder the tubing to the wire a inch longer than my wire. I flatten the tubing in a vise and round the corners off of the flattened pipe and then drill a hole to attach to the starter. Us DIY folks need to stick together.
I don’t know if you get to it later or not but DO NOT FORGET STRIKE PLATES OVER WIRES BORED THROUGH STUDS. Even if it’s not code in your area, it’s still a good idea. Same for water lines. A single screw piercing the insulation jacket can cause massive headaches later.
Good info. I have a couple of comments. Your ground wire should run in the same conduit that your current carrying conductors are in. Second, you should always isolate the neutral bonding in the sub panel. The only place that a neutral should be bonded to ground is at the first means of disconnect, which would be at the main panel.
Good morning, by the way you have some great and simple to follow instruction. My preoccupation is the follow, my house does not have a main circuit breaker. So I have decided to install one, in in the breaker box. The problem is that the only way for me to do so safely is the ask the power company to cut the power. But since there is always a another way what could be some advices, the breaker is Eaton BR 200-Amp 2 pole main breaker model BW2200
Looks good, nice work, only write-ups are, 1-Color code your ground wire. 2- Properly support the 12/3 Romex (Staple's). 3- Wire fill calculation for the 1" EMT. 4-Properly support the 1" EMT. 5-Check with the local jurisdiction, I" conduit is not rated for bonding on a 70 amp feeder.
You don't need to run ground wire through EMT. You can use a bonding bushing on both ends, which grounds the entire conduit, which is what you should be doing with EMT anyway.
As noted below, but deserves reiteration - I found that the subpanel added when a separate garage was built 20 years ago had not isolated the ground and neutral, as per code. I removed the bonding screws that tie the panel to the neutral bar, and migrated white and ground wires to their separate bars. It looks as if his panel may already have those bonding screws removed, but not clearly mentioning this crucial difference, between main and subpanels, is pretty important.
Great video. One safety precaution that I would take if possible, is when you're drilling into a live panel try to either catch or divert the pieces of steel away from the breakers.
Great video. If you have the time, I have one quick question. I'm having a difficult time figuring out proper amperage for my subpanel. House main is 100AMP breaker at the service line from outside. How do I determine which breaker to use at the main that will supply the subpanel?
I think you should have 4 wire for grounding subpanel to main panel. Pretty much sure it is violation as grounding should have one point at the main disconnect.
Well done! Fantastic channel. I wish more homeowners would watch these videos; it could save some lives and expensive headaches. One should always make sure they/electrician have full understanding of local and updated NEC. I took a whole semester long class which focused only on reading and working with NEC; it was a very interesting class. The permitting process is in place to protect you, the homeowner.
At the start of the video you mention to work with an electrician. Could you expand on that a bit? Is that having an electrician friend check your work, hire an electrician as a consultant, something different? Could be a great topic for a separate video.
Good job, I do have to mention this: the “ground” that connects to this sub-panel, is called an Equipment Grounding Conductor and needs to come from the EGC terminal block where the sub-panel is fed from. The wire you connected from the ufer cannot be used as the “ground” for your sub-panel.
@@Lexi13450 absolutely all four wires 2hots, neutral and ground need to come from the main panel box. Do not wire your subpanel the way it is explained in this video.
Should have probably pulled a #8 ground wire from the main panel through the conduit. That ground bonded to the rod with the main house wire is sketchy.
Thank you for your time and video. I have a separate panel that is not connected to the house. Its just in the yard and it powers my garage, my barn and a pump. There are 3 double pole, 60 amps each pole , breakers in this panel. For the breaker that powers the creek pump, 12 gauge wires that read 220V go down to power a creek pump. The pump was just on the ground. I have since built a pump house around it. Could i power a sm panel box with these wires and run a 220 pump and an outlet each with there own breaker? I need to plug in a heater to keep the pump from freezing in the winter. Thank you 🙏
Might want to mention something about the neutral and ground separation in sub panels. Is it needed? Or Not? I have seen DIY installers mix these up sometimes.
Do you need to, or is it a good idea to mark the ground wire with green tape? Also, are there any bonding requirements for the conduit from the main load center?
Yes, the black wires need to be marked with green tape at each end when it's a ground and white tape at each end when it's a neutral. The conduit most likely wouldn't need to be bonded in this application. One thing that he didn't note was that because it's a sub panel the neutral must Not be bonded to the ground, so that screw should be removed / not used.
You're close pete as far as the ground Wires are concerned. They are bounded to the panel on a sub panel. the neutrals are isolated and insulated from the panel. Another words do not bond. This facilitates or allows fault currents. It will be kind of like putting your grounds and neutrals on the same screws on your duplexes
So what I’m curious to know is you have your 2 hots connected to your 70amp breaker where is your ground and your neutral connected to in your main breaker?
pretty sure you need a grounding bushing since you are using a smaller concentric knockout. It's for the impossible chance that the knockouts get loose and then you have ungrounded metal conduit not bonded to the box.
Great timing. I'm looking to add a subpanel in our garage as we currently have just two outlets, including one on the ceiling where we no longer have a garage door opener. I'd like to make 50 amps and a main cutoff available in the garage and put several new receptacles around the walls of the garage and, perhaps, one exterior receptacle for use in the driveway with vacuums, tools, pressure washers, etc. I'm looking at Leviton's smart breaker setup. I'd eventually like to redo our main breaker panel with that as well. This would be a nice test.
No torque requirements on the feeds on the 70 amp circuit breaker or sub panel feed connections? Why didn’t you wrap red tape on the sorcerer panel circuit breaker 2 amp line?
Yep.... same here. I spent all that time spec-ing out which box I'd buy... I bought a Square D QO 12 space/24 circuit outdoor box... only to find out that *A)* the top two knockouts were already out, (and I don't need both of those spaces, so now I have to fill in one them) and *B)* my cover has *16 spaces,* not 12 - so those last 4 spaces are null... pointless... deceiving... orphans. *YET,* Square D _does_ make a 12-space cover for their "Homeline" 125-amp box. I mean, I've heard of saving a few pennies in the manufacturing process by consolidating... but come on now.
How long does it take to replace it in general? My apartment one is fine and working but they wanna replace it. I worried on my refrigerated food lost. Thank You
per the NEC any conduit that has wires in it must have a ground run with the wires and sized accordingly and also the ground for ur sub panel must go back to the main panel where ur other wires originate from. the yellow covers are meant for a panel with a main breaker and also he used a armored cable connector that is incorrect when u have just a piece of romex or THHN
The NEC had never unfortunately never required that you run a ground wire inside of a metal conduit in most cases. You have to run a ground wire in patient care areas.
@@ryanlaroche1629 250.118 defines the requirements for an equipment grounding conductor. They say that rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, and electrical metallic tubing are all valid options. Do you have any contradictory code references?
What size breaker and wire would I need to feed a 200-amp sub panel off the main, for a new garage build that's about 200-250 feet away from the house/main panel?
I have a similar main panel as yours and wasn't able to find any pictures of it with the dead front removed, so your video and article have been really helpful to me in knowing what I'll find if I open mine up. I noticed in your video that the lugs at the bottom of the hot bars are connected to something already. The manual for my panel says those are a feed-through for a subpanel, since the main power comes in from the meter via the quad breaker in the middle of the panel. Did you already have another subpanel somewhere before making this video, or are those used for something else?
My main panel is probably 70’ away from my new garage and the wire pulled to feed it will need to travel through my attic. What is best, individual wires or an all-in-one SER?
Everything right in its place. Question: Why there are no different colors on supply cables. Like, black or brown or grey for hot, blue for neutral and yellow-green for earth, us EU doing.
I always use main breakers on sub boxes. In an emergency, unlikely as it may be, I can shut everything off with one switch. 6 switches is legal, but in an emergency, a second or two might count.
Should also add to he is using 12-2 wire witch can be used with a 20amp breaker can't use a 20 amp breaker on 14-2 wire but can use a 15 amp breaker on 12-2 if this makes sense
So is it 30" to either side from the center or a total of 30" being 15" on each side. Also, say I definitely have the clearance is there an issue with having the sub panel be next to a door that opens into the shed on the hinge side. That area for me is the closest to my main panel (On a pole in the backyard) so that would be something that would be the cheapest when having the electrician connect the two. Safety wise, I know what I'm doing but I want to make sure that it won't be a problem (And obviously I will need to get code for my county luckily I'm in a rural area and not city too).
Probably not the best way but, when I was an apprentice electrician (at both companies I worked for - for a grand total of about 4.5 months) we never torqued anything down. The standing rule of thumb was to just tighten it down until you can't tighten it anymore. lol
@@torilessI'm not saying he's not correct, I'm just saying we never did it. In fact, I've had one company switch out an outdated panel for a new one and install a subpanel and another company install a different subpanel at a different location and none of the electricians ever torqued anything on any of it. I just don't think it's standard practice, even though they probably should've been doing it.
As to setting torque, it seems to me the issue is too loose. I would believe the torque setting is to be sure they are tight enough to prevent poor connections and possibly heat from same. If the number is 35 inch pounds I would take that as a minimum and more is ok?
@@usethenoodle As I said, we torqued everything down to the point we couldn't torque it any further. Well, without stripping something, of course. It IS possible to torque something down so far that you strip it out and then it won't hold, at all.
20/40 means you can put in 20 single breakers or 40 tandem breakers. The NEC requires the grounded conductor(s) to be routed with the ungrounded conductors to the service entrance equipment and it shall connect to the grounded conductor(s) terminal or bus. Although the grounded conductor is connected on the supply side, it shall not be connected to the EGCs or reconnected to ground on the load side of the service disconnection means except as otherwise permitted in the 2017 NEC Article 250.142(B). Connecting directly to the Ground electrode would be a code violation. Also NEC 300.3(B) (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4). Check the NEC code adopted in your area. I bussing is requires on the threads when using wire over 4AWG, and not on the chase nipple end.
I read through most of the comments. Some good some not so good. One thing. Ground conductors that are not bare are required by NEC to be identified as green. Also, if you are going to install conductors for 100 amps as in this case #2 cu in a dwelling, then there is absolutely no reason to put anything smaller amp breaker. Just a total waste of money.
Not an electrician, but I'm confused. It looks like the neutral and ground bars are connected directly to the sub breaker box frame creating a secondary bond to neutral. It's always been my understanding that you never want a sub panel to bond to neutral (OR have it's own individual ground rod). Current will always find a path to complete and a fault in the system could create many "hot" paths including the breaker box itself and skip tripping a breaker to stop the flow. Am I missing something?
If that is a load-bearing wall the framing is incorrect! You need a lintel above the panel to take the wall load of the cut stud above and the lintel must rest on jack studs on each side going down to the base plate!
Conduit from main panel (First Means of Disconnect) Less than 24" can have 60% but might need to be derated due to ambient temps / No bushing in Main panel for wire larger than #4 / No bonding bushing / Jack studs/King studs go to the floor for load bearing to support. / No staple on romex entering bottom of outlet box / Using a MC connector for equipment ground wire should have used romex connector and should be re-identified green. Should have ran a bare #6 from the ufer
How is it your neutral and ground are bonded in your new sub panel? Isn't it code that only at the point of entrance (main panel) the ground and neutral are bonded there and no where else?
I need to do very similar eventually. The easiest option for me is going to be to run wire into the basement and along the walls out to the garage. Have any recommendations for what wire I should use and how to run it?
Additionally, I believe a 70A breaker is the max I could use in my main panel in the basement. It is an older panel that may be replaced at some point. It is very closer to the meter on the outside of the house. Ideally I'd like to run 100A service to the garage. Can I myself tap in at the meter to run to the sub panel? Yes I am very aware I would have to pull the meter or have a pro do it. Or would it be smarter to have another meter installed by the power company? Any thoughts you have I appreciate. Code where I am is pretty standard and you are allowed to do all your own work.
@@802Garagethere are a lot of questions here, but I'll try to answer some. In order to install a sub panel you'll have to have 2 breaker spots next to each other in main panel or meter panel.
@@802Garageyou should have a main breaker on your meter, at least the half without the actual meter. And usually they will have another 2-pole breaker spot you can use to install a subpanel
@@sparkypride3436 Ours is old enough our meter does not have a breaker. Part of what I'd potentially like to do is install a junction box and breaker after the meter to be able to split off for the garage. I've done a ton of research on most of the code and wiring and options, but was just looking for some extra opinions so thanks a lot. :)
I see you put 2 ground bars in your box, one on each side. You tan your ground wire from the house ground to the ground bar on the right side of the box. Do you need to run another ground wire to the second ground bar on the left side? Or is it grounded by the panel box?
You didn't discuss the one thing I was really interested to learn about, which is are subpanel ground supposed to be linked to neutrals? From what I saw, your subpanel neutrals are isolated from ground, which I think is correct and different from the main panel in which the neutral is tied to the ground. Thanks for the great tutorial. Edit - I see that someone else explained yes grounds should be isolated, but also not earth-grounded, but rather run back (isolated) to the main panel.
This is his electrician he has been talking too on this project and 8 hope I can clear this issue up, cause it can be a rabbit hole. 99% of the time if you are adding a sub panel you will not need to bond the ground and neutral. Just run separate wires for the neutral and ground. It is a little different if the sub panel is in a detached building. If you need those answers feel free to reach out via this comment
@@sparkypride3436 thank you very much. My situation is that I have a detached garage that has a subpanel. I'm fairly certain there are only three large cables entering the breaker panel, two hots and one that has a yellow stripe running around it. The striped cable goes to buss bars that are combined between neutrals and grounds from the different internal circuits of outlets and lights. So I'm a bit confused as to why even run two wires, when they end up in the same place! I watched several videos, and as you said, it seems like a rabbit hole! Thanks for helping.
@@dougb8207 It gets a bit complicated, but the easiest way to explain it is that the equipment grounding conductor ('the ground') should never have current flowing on it unless there is a ground fault somewhere in a circuit. The only place that isn't true is where the service enters, usually the main panel or in modern code, the main disconnect. Everywhere else, EGC/neutral needs to be separated. Often, the bundled cables for feeding sub panels use a conductor for the EGC that is smaller gauge than the H/H/N wires. There's a chart that lists what the min ground size is for the size of the other conductors. This is allowed, because, again, it only needs to be large enough to clear a fault a trip the breaker, not carry the full current of one of the hot conductors.
@bnasty267 so, I believe the striped subpage wire must be a neutral from your comments. And probably, a separate ground wire should have been run. Everything tests out fine and works fine, but that's what I was afraid of. Thanks for explaining, or trying to.
@@dougb8207 How old is the subpanel install and is the garage detached from the house? Older code (before ~2008 I think) allowed a detached building subpanel to just use 3 wires (combined neutral and ground) with a couple other requirements I can't recall. In fact, this was even common with large appliances like dryers and ovens in the past, which treated the neutral (aka the grounded conductor) as the ground (aka the ECG.) You're probably grandfathered in with your subpanel, but if you make any major changes, you might need to run the ground now that those exclusions are gone.
In NJ this panel would fail inspection. The ground wire in the subpanel should be run with conductors from the main panel. Neutral and Grounds are isolated from each other in the subpanel. Ground bonded to subpanel. Neutral is not bonded to the subpanel. A second panel or sub panel should have the neutral and ground terminals or bars isolated from each other, this is why the main circuit feed to the sub panel must have 4 wires, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground. All the ground wires bond back at the main panel together with the neutrals. The sub panel neutral bar or terminal should not be bonded to the enclosure or the ground of the sub panel. The sub panel ground should not have a ground rod tied to it. The bonding for the main ground sources such as a ground rod is made at the main panel where all the grounds are bonded together as well.
By code a ground wire should be a green wire or a bare copper wire and not a black wire like you have going to the main ground. Also the way you have your box mounted limits you only to use the top knockouts.
I would be interested in you doing a partial load transfer switch (not whole house) as well. I know it has less code issues but it is still a worthy topic.
Technically your reframing job to install the panel doesn't meet code. There should be "jacks" installed under your bottom horizontal run to the bottom plate of the wall to support the load transferred around the box. Right now your bottom horizontal plate is relying on the nails holding it in place to support the roof load. The framework should be just like the installation of a window in a load bearing wall.
I never saw a breaker panel outside until I started watching RUclips. How do those not short out in the rain? I don't see much weatherproofing on them.
They are rated for rain, it's just the way they are designed to shed water. If you look closely at the seams of the box you'll see what I'm taking about. It's all found under NEMA ratings. The outside panels are 3R
Breakers boxes on the outside are becoming more common and are being used as a emergency disconnect as a disconnect means for emergency personnel to spray water or entering a structure Denergized
One thing that any DIYer must be aware of is that under modern code, all breaker boxes that are newly installed must have either arc fault, ground fault, or combination breakers.
Not all breakers. It varies a lot, arc fault has different rules than ground fault. In this case if the shed/garage will be unfinished, the only requirement is that all receptacles be Ground Fault protected, not lighting, and there are no requirements for arc fault protection in this case. Also, combination breakers only have arc-fault protection. I think you are referring to dual-function breakers.
I recently made a lot of electrical upgrades in my shop. I added a 220V 30 amp circuit and a couple of 220 V 50 amp circuits and a bunch of lighting circuits along with some gas heater igniters. I assumed that you could not put two wires in a breaker and that you could not put wire nuts in a panel. I had not seen either before. I did some research and found that it was possible to do both according to code, even though no one enforces code in my area.
So, how do you come up with what size circuit breaker to use for the panel and gauge of wire? I have a really old zinsco sub panel that I want to change out. This was most likely not done to code as there is only 12ga going into the panel.
Great video. Thank you! Just a quick question. Is it okay to trade out a 20Amp for a 70? Isn’t that allowing too much amperage into the “once was” 20Amp line? Also, if I have a 100 am main, can I run a 70Amp break to a sub panel? Thanks, for the help and again, great video.
He ran a new line with an appropriate gauge for the 70 amp breaker. Thats why what he did was ok. If you are talking about just replacing the breaker with 70 amps, and leaving 12 gauge wire, big no no.
HELP! I'm replacing an old Federal Pacific 100-amp panel with a 200-amp Square D Hameline panel, so I will need to upgrade the service entrance cable and want to use 2/0 THHN copper. The outdoor meter can/box is mounted low, (30" off the ground at bottom edge of can) outside, so if I use the bottom rear 2-inch knockout of the meter can, it will put the hole through the wall below the bottom edge of the new breaker panel by about 8 inches, so I will have to make a vertical 90 upwards turn from hole in wall to bottom knockout of the new panel. I cannot find a 2" close 90 PVC electrical fitting so I'm guessing they don't make one. My question is: how do I make that vertical 90 turn upwards? It will eventually be covered in drywall. Do I need to have the inside copper leads in conduit at all? If I use switch to 4/0 aluminum, do I need conduit inside the wall cavity? thanks in advance!
You could use a 2” LB conduit body coming out of the bottom of your meter base. I would run a 4/0 aluminum SER cable from meter base, through the LB, and into your new panel. No, you won’t need to run that 4/0 in conduit.
You better be talking to your utility company! That is their meter, not yours. If you have an old 100 amp service, I seriously doubt you have a 200 amp rated meter socket. You may not be allowed by utility company to pull the meter.
Thanks Keven. I've already cleared that with utility company, and pulled a homeowners permit for the work. DTE Edison assured me that the service is ready for 200-amp upgrade. The underground wires to the meter and meter itself were replaced last year and so was the pole. @@KevinCoop1
If you install the subpanel into the wall like this, there is pretty much no insulation in that spot. Furthermore, if this is a living space in the colder climate then warm moist air will be hitting the cold surfaces of the panel and water can start to condensate on the panel, which is not desirable. For those reasons I actually think you can and you should surface mount a panel.
I didn't see which type of wire you used to run your subpanel, but if it was aluminum, you failed to mention the need for antioxidant paste when hooking into your subpanel.
@@oumargx oxidation will occur on the aluminum wire because it is dissimilar to the lug holding it in. The lug is steel or copper. Hence the need for antioxidant paste
@@crispyspa the lugs in these panels are usually tin plated aluminum, even if they are copper they are rated for both CU/AL conductors. Aluminum conductors sold today are of a much better alloy than in the past, no paste needed if you torque lugs to spec.
Why do I not see a bare groundwire on my box. I see two 120 volt lines coming in and a nuetral. All my bare copper wire and white nuetrals are attached to the same bus bars.
Thank you for this video. Question: Why is the panel less then the 36” you said NEC code says is required from any wall left or right of the panel? I have this same situation about to come up for a main panel I need redone but it’s probably only 12 inches from the wall (has to be grandfathered being so old but if I do it new I want to be in compliance)
I believe the code states that you need 36" clearance in front of the panel plus 30" of space across the panel. Even the panel in my house (that runs the entire home) is within 18" of a wall. I may be mistaken so I'm open to being corrected here but that's how I understood it.
@@user-yb8bc7jb3c this is good to know. I have a subpanel in my garage and I tore down a wall it’s on to make it open concept. It’s probably only 24” wide. Guess now I have to relocate the panel to the next wall to make it complaint again then. Ugh
Awesome,,,thanks,,,,however why not to install the subpanel with main c/b.? that way u dont have to go out to turn the c/b out when u wants to do some work,,,
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Great info. Just rewired my sons detached garage sub panel that was totally done wrong by previous owner that did not have full understanding of "Local and National" NEC. They had bonded the Neutral and Ground buss with the 'GREEN' screw. MANY other bad wiring issues too.
And the MAIN panel inside the house was also done wrong as it is a Modular Home and the 'Main' disconnect is on the power pole strike detached from the house, so the first panel inside is also a Sub Panel and it too was bonded with the GREEN screw. Again, many bad wiring issues inside, open grounds and loose HOT and Neutrals at outlets and switches.
Retired "Pole Dancer" and low volt electrician of 43 years. Did High voltage Power Line work until my knees said no more hiking poles.
Depends on how old it is. I remember 32 years ago we were not required to use the 4th wire and the ground and neutral were together. Today the detached sub panel requires 4 wire plus it own ground electrode and ground electrode conductor (ground rod and wire).
I just added added a Square D sub-panel off my main. It is a lot nicer than my existing HC/Eaton panel. I have a lot of DIY electrical experience and I spend a lot of time looking up code when I'm working on projects. You did convince me to finally order a torque screwdriver. One additional step I took was to coat my exposed leads with anti-corrosion grease. My panels are in the garage and I'm fairly close to the ocean.
Just an observation. On the main coming into the subpanel i usually put a loop there so if something should happen there is enough wire to change it. Ive never had to change it in any panel though. The other thing that loop does is release tension on the wires at where they come out of conduit. Although once done everything should be secured at entrance in each box.
I installed a lot of120/240 , 120/208, 240, & 480/277 volt single & three phase subpanels and never ran a ground from anything BUT the panel that feeds it. Did not see you seal the wires in outside of conduit to prevent condensation build up. Did not see him install the required gasket on the 1" LB. On my own house I ran a jumper ground to each of those ground bars and not depend on screws to provide a path for thousands of amps during a short circuit. The NEC has never allowed you to screw a chase hippie into any coupling ( not what u called coupler ) . Reason being rigid electrical couplings have a tapered thread and chase hippie do not have tapered threads. I would have ran a copper ground wire from service panel to sub panel and go the extra yard and install a not code required grounding lock but or grounding bushing on 1" EMT connector inside service panel. If you are in the Latest NEC code cycle you would need combination AFCI breakers for all circuits 50 amps and less in the garage. ( both 120'& 240 volt circuits ). Some locations do not require that for hard wired 50 amp 240 volt EV chargers.
I doubt he missed the gasket since even I know about those, not sure about the rest.
Jack studs should always go to the foundation or have a continuous path to the foundation.
Had he not stated that the wall was load bearing, I would not have caught it, but the method of supporting the cut stud clearly doesn’t look sufficient and would fail a structural inspection. It’s probably going to be fine, but not done “properly.” I also would have expected the ground to need to go all the way back to the main panel as opposed to being grounded to the ground rod. If that wall gets all covered up with drywall, as is probably the intention of inserting the panel into the studs, then this all becomes much harder to inspect. My gut reaction is that it should be a panel on top of the studs instead of inserting it into the studs. I’m not an electrician, but do like making sure everything is done to meet code or at least be very easy to update to meet code.
Support studs should be added before that wall is closed up.
I tuned out after he said wall was load bearing and said he had installed "jack studs" and bonded neutral and ground together not too sure he knows enough to be teaching others@mknmike
I think it needs to be said that the subpanel, ground and neutral should not be bonded at the subpanel.
Good point. Very true.
Yes; that's what I was looking for! Thank you.
Only one main bonding jumper (neutral and ground bonded) per seperatley derived system....which simply means if a neutral is created
@sparkypride3436 thanks for clarifying that but you have to remember that this is a DIY channel and the topic is sub-panels.
@@Pete4875Good vid. But not bonding the sub panel is part of the installation right ?
You’re doing great things with this channel. You make it easy to understand and follow along. I can’t thank you enough!
From looking through the comments it seems the ground outside the main panel directly to the ground rod is the top issue mentioned. Most say there should be a 4th wire in the conduit with the lines as a dedicated ground within the main panel. Also with the four wires (if the ground is included) the conduit should be upsized to be within the 40% rule. Other than that, great job. Thanks for the video. Nicely done. Good camera work, editing and a clear explanation. Appreciate you.
Thank you for the informative video. I would caution everyone about the use of a metal tape measure, however, as seen around the 7:30 minute mark. It is generally advisable to use non-conductive measuring tools around exposed electrical wiring. Folding rules made of wood or non-conductive plastic would be preferable to the metal tape measure in this application.
I'm pretty sure the grounding conductor has to be run with the other conductors and sized according. If someone disconnects your bogus ground wire at the Ufer, then the panel is ungrounded except by the metal conduit. Use the right size conduit, this is a feeder.
I'm trying to understand this as per NEC. I can't find anything that states that they all need to come in via the same feeder, especially when the ground is going to the same UFER as the main. I'm not saying I definitely have it right - I just can't find a clear explanation of this.
Also, how is my connection at the UFER any more "bogus" than the original to the main? I used the another of the exact same ground clamp that the main is connected with, and why would someone disconnect that?
I appreciate your feedback on this - I absolutely want to understand this and do it right. Happy to rewire this if need be.
Although the metal conduit may be the "ground" I wouldn't trust it. Check 300.3(B) all conductors are to be run in the same raceway.
@@damnyouramen thank you; I was wondering about that also. I've heard the subpanel ground should not be tied to the neutral in the subpanel, but just run back to the main panel where the neutral and ground are linked. So, it makes sense that the subpanel ground should not be tied to a different earth ground. Unfortunately, my detached garage subpanel has all the neutrals and grounds tied together. I may have to call an electrician in one day to unwind that.
@@LRN2DIY NEC 250.110 says it needs to be connected to an _equipment grounding conductor._ The connection to the ground rod could might only be considered a _grounding electrode conductor._ Whether or not it's allowed might be a gray area it but it's definitely preferred to get ground from the main panel. A major goal is to provide an effective path for fault current, and this fault current goes back to the main panel's neutral-ground bond jumper.
As 250.118 considers EMT a grounded conductor you should be all set provided everything is clean. It's not clear to me if your "bonus" connection to the rod is acceptable or not. It would definitely be okay to run the subpanel's ground wire inside the EMT as extra insurance. If I'm not mistaken it wouldn't count towards conduit fill.
Personally if I were doing this job not only would the equipment ground be run with the other conductors but I would have put a bonding busing on the conduit. It is not clear if his field installed hole is going to make a good connection
Thank you for covering the torque settings. Great job!
Any waterproofing needed as the conduit enters the wall? Wouldn't this allow some water to get to the OSB and inside the wall?
Yes, good point. It all needs to be sealed at the point of entry. I get so worried about the 150 sections of code to consider that I inevitably forget to show some of the more obvious steps!
@@LRN2DIY No worries. Obviously a lot of details. Just curious since I'm planning to do a similar hole for conduit.
I had to strip some big 1 or 2 gauge wire not to long ago. I used a baby pipe cutter for copper tubing. I never seen it done before but it was in my hands reach when I was needing to strip them to make battery cables for my old 53 Chevy truck. I had them out as I used copper tubbing that just fit over then I crimp and solder the tubing to the wire a inch longer than my wire. I flatten the tubing in a vise and round the corners off of the flattened pipe and then drill a hole to attach to the starter. Us DIY folks need to stick together.
Seems like a lot of work when they literally sell terminals you just crimp for like $3
I don’t know if you get to it later or not but DO NOT FORGET STRIKE PLATES OVER WIRES BORED THROUGH STUDS. Even if it’s not code in your area, it’s still a good idea. Same for water lines. A single screw piercing the insulation jacket can cause massive headaches later.
Good info. I have a couple of comments. Your ground wire should run in the same conduit that your current carrying conductors are in. Second, you should always isolate the neutral bonding in the sub panel. The only place that a neutral should be bonded to ground is at the first means of disconnect, which would be at the main panel.
Great video! And as you said, check local codes. The AHJ here only allows the use of existing sub panel knockouts. One can’t drill a new hole.
Good morning, by the way you have some great and simple to follow instruction. My preoccupation is the follow, my house does not have a main circuit breaker. So I have decided to install one, in in the breaker box. The problem is that the only way for me to do so safely is the ask the power company to cut the power. But since there is always a another way what could be some advices, the breaker is Eaton BR 200-Amp 2 pole main breaker model BW2200
Looks good, nice work, only write-ups are, 1-Color code your ground wire. 2- Properly support the 12/3 Romex (Staple's). 3- Wire fill calculation for the 1" EMT. 4-Properly support the 1" EMT. 5-Check with the local jurisdiction, I" conduit is not rated for bonding on a 70 amp feeder.
You don't need to run ground wire through EMT. You can use a bonding bushing on both ends, which grounds the entire conduit, which is what you should be doing with EMT anyway.
As noted below, but deserves reiteration - I found that the subpanel added when a separate garage was built 20 years ago had not isolated the ground and neutral, as per code. I removed the bonding screws that tie the panel to the neutral bar, and migrated white and ground wires to their separate bars. It looks as if his panel may already have those bonding screws removed, but not clearly mentioning this crucial difference, between main and subpanels, is pretty important.
Great video. One safety precaution that I would take if possible, is when you're drilling into a live panel try to either catch or divert the pieces of steel away from the breakers.
Great video. If you have the time, I have one quick question. I'm having a difficult time figuring out proper amperage for my subpanel. House main is 100AMP breaker at the service line from outside. How do I determine which breaker to use at the main that will supply the subpanel?
Great Video. Thank you for sharing. Does sub panel need bonding screw install sub panel ?
Absolute no. It is a violation to install it.
I think you should have 4 wire for grounding subpanel to main panel. Pretty much sure it is violation as grounding should have one point at the main disconnect.
Well done! Fantastic channel. I wish more homeowners would watch these videos; it could save some lives and expensive headaches. One should always make sure they/electrician have full understanding of local and updated NEC. I took a whole semester long class which focused only on reading and working with NEC; it was a very interesting class. The permitting process is in place to protect you, the homeowner.
How do you install the panel itself?
At the start of the video you mention to work with an electrician. Could you expand on that a bit? Is that having an electrician friend check your work, hire an electrician as a consultant, something different? Could be a great topic for a separate video.
Good job, I do have to mention this: the “ground” that connects to this sub-panel, is called an Equipment Grounding Conductor and needs to come from the EGC terminal block where the sub-panel is fed from. The wire you connected from the ufer cannot be used as the “ground” for your sub-panel.
If I got this right that was my impression or what I've learned is the ground at the sub panel has to be from sub panel to the main panel
Can someone confirm this is code please? I would have done the branched ground like he did not knowing any better.
@@Lexi13450 absolutely all four wires 2hots, neutral and ground need to come from the main panel box. Do not wire your subpanel the way it is explained in this video.
I was about to ask about this as well. Thanks for clarifying.
Should have probably pulled a #8 ground wire from the main panel through the conduit. That ground bonded to the rod with the main house wire is sketchy.
The conduit should also work as a ground for the sub. The extra ground seems redundant.
Shouldn't your yellow wire be stapled to the stud after it comes out of the panel?
Thank you for your time and video.
I have a separate panel that is not connected to the house. Its just in the yard and it powers my garage, my barn and a pump. There are 3 double pole, 60 amps each pole , breakers in this panel. For the breaker that powers the creek pump, 12 gauge wires that read 220V go down to power a creek pump. The pump was just on the ground. I have since built a pump house around it. Could i power a sm panel box with these wires and run a 220 pump and an outlet each with there own breaker? I need to plug in a heater to keep the pump from freezing in the winter.
Thank you 🙏
Might want to mention something about the neutral and ground separation in sub panels. Is it needed? Or Not? I have seen DIY installers mix these up sometimes.
The joy of ground loops
Do you need to, or is it a good idea to mark the ground wire with green tape? Also, are there any bonding requirements for the conduit from the main load center?
Yes, the black wires need to be marked with green tape at each end when it's a ground and white tape at each end when it's a neutral. The conduit most likely wouldn't need to be bonded in this application. One thing that he didn't note was that because it's a sub panel the neutral must Not be bonded to the ground, so that screw should be removed / not used.
You're close pete as far as the ground Wires are concerned. They are bounded to the panel on a sub panel. the neutrals are isolated and insulated from the panel. Another words do not bond. This facilitates or allows fault currents. It will be kind of like putting your grounds and neutrals on the same screws on your duplexes
Very interesting to see these American style sub panels, as I only have seen European installations. They are quite different...greetz from Germany ❤
So what I’m curious to know is you have your 2 hots connected to your 70amp breaker where is your ground and your neutral connected to in your main breaker?
pretty sure you need a grounding bushing since you are using a smaller concentric knockout. It's for the impossible chance that the knockouts get loose and then you have ungrounded metal conduit not bonded to the box.
Great timing. I'm looking to add a subpanel in our garage as we currently have just two outlets, including one on the ceiling where we no longer have a garage door opener. I'd like to make 50 amps and a main cutoff available in the garage and put several new receptacles around the walls of the garage and, perhaps, one exterior receptacle for use in the driveway with vacuums, tools, pressure washers, etc. I'm looking at Leviton's smart breaker setup. I'd eventually like to redo our main breaker panel with that as well. This would be a nice test.
Make sure all are GFCI, as per code.
No torque requirements on the feeds on the 70 amp circuit breaker or sub panel feed connections? Why didn’t you wrap red tape on the sorcerer panel circuit breaker 2 amp line?
Great job!!!!! Only thing I would do dif is go 1 1/4 on the conduit..
Yep.... same here. I spent all that time spec-ing out which box I'd buy... I bought a Square D QO 12 space/24 circuit outdoor box... only to find out that *A)* the top two knockouts were already out, (and I don't need both of those spaces, so now I have to fill in one them) and *B)* my cover has *16 spaces,* not 12 - so those last 4 spaces are null... pointless... deceiving... orphans. *YET,* Square D _does_ make a 12-space cover for their "Homeline" 125-amp box. I mean, I've heard of saving a few pennies in the manufacturing process by consolidating... but come on now.
How long does it take to replace it in general? My apartment one is fine and working but they wanna replace it. I worried on my refrigerated food lost.
Thank You
per the NEC any conduit that has wires in it must have a ground run with the wires and sized accordingly and also the ground for ur sub panel must go back to the main panel where ur other wires originate from.
the yellow covers are meant for a panel with a main breaker and also he used a armored cable connector that is incorrect when u have just a piece of romex or THHN
The NEC had never unfortunately never required that you run a ground wire inside of a metal conduit in most cases. You have to run a ground wire in patient care areas.
@@garbo8962 it does say it unfortunately u do not know how to look thing up in the code book.
@@ryanlaroche1629 250.118 defines the requirements for an equipment grounding conductor. They say that rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, and electrical metallic tubing are all valid options. Do you have any contradictory code references?
I also believe the ground needs to be in the same raceway as the the other conductors
What size breaker and wire would I need to feed a 200-amp sub panel off the main, for a new garage build that's about 200-250 feet away from the house/main panel?
I have a similar main panel as yours and wasn't able to find any pictures of it with the dead front removed, so your video and article have been really helpful to me in knowing what I'll find if I open mine up.
I noticed in your video that the lugs at the bottom of the hot bars are connected to something already. The manual for my panel says those are a feed-through for a subpanel, since the main power comes in from the meter via the quad breaker in the middle of the panel. Did you already have another subpanel somewhere before making this video, or are those used for something else?
how many AMPS in your main breaker, and is the subpanel usage going to effect the main panel?
My main panel is probably 70’ away from my new garage and the wire pulled to feed it will need to travel through my attic. What is best, individual wires or an all-in-one SER?
Everything right in its place. Question: Why there are no different colors on supply cables. Like, black or brown or grey for hot, blue for neutral and yellow-green for earth, us EU doing.
I always use main breakers on sub boxes. In an emergency, unlikely as it may be, I can shut everything off with one switch.
6 switches is legal, but in an emergency, a second or two might count.
Should also add to he is using 12-2 wire witch can be used with a 20amp breaker can't use a 20 amp breaker on 14-2 wire but can use a 15 amp breaker on 12-2 if this makes sense
Did you remove the bonding screw in your subpanel? It's my understanding that on a subpanel the neutral and ground bus bars need to be separate?
So is it 30" to either side from the center or a total of 30" being 15" on each side. Also, say I definitely have the clearance is there an issue with having the sub panel be next to a door that opens into the shed on the hinge side. That area for me is the closest to my main panel (On a pole in the backyard) so that would be something that would be the cheapest when having the electrician connect the two. Safety wise, I know what I'm doing but I want to make sure that it won't be a problem (And obviously I will need to get code for my county luckily I'm in a rural area and not city too).
Probably not the best way but, when I was an apprentice electrician (at both companies I worked for - for a grand total of about 4.5 months) we never torqued anything down. The standing rule of thumb was to just tighten it down until you can't tighten it anymore. lol
They were bums, he is correct.
@@torilessI'm not saying he's not correct, I'm just saying we never did it. In fact, I've had one company switch out an outdated panel for a new one and install a subpanel and another company install a different subpanel at a different location and none of the electricians ever torqued anything on any of it. I just don't think it's standard practice, even though they probably should've been doing it.
As to setting torque, it seems to me the issue is too loose. I would believe the torque setting is to be sure they are tight enough to prevent poor connections and possibly heat from same. If the number is 35 inch pounds I would take that as a minimum and more is ok?
@@usethenoodle As I said, we torqued everything down to the point we couldn't torque it any further. Well, without stripping something, of course. It IS possible to torque something down so far that you strip it out and then it won't hold, at all.
20/40 means you can put in 20 single breakers or 40 tandem breakers. The NEC requires the grounded conductor(s) to be routed with the ungrounded conductors to the service entrance equipment and it shall connect to the grounded conductor(s) terminal or bus. Although the grounded conductor is connected on the supply side, it shall not be connected to the EGCs or reconnected to ground on the load side of the service disconnection means except as otherwise permitted in the 2017 NEC Article 250.142(B). Connecting directly to the Ground electrode would be a code violation. Also NEC 300.3(B)
(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the
same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all
equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall
be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable
tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise
permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
Check the NEC code adopted in your area.
I bussing is requires on the threads when using wire over 4AWG, and not on the chase nipple end.
I read through most of the comments. Some good some not so good. One thing. Ground conductors that are not bare are required by NEC to be identified as green.
Also, if you are going to install conductors for 100 amps as in this case #2 cu in a dwelling, then there is absolutely no reason to put anything smaller amp breaker. Just a total waste of money.
Not an electrician, but I'm confused. It looks like the neutral and ground bars are connected directly to the sub breaker box frame creating a secondary bond to neutral. It's always been my understanding that you never want a sub panel to bond to neutral (OR have it's own individual ground rod). Current will always find a path to complete and a fault in the system could create many "hot" paths including the breaker box itself and skip tripping a breaker to stop the flow. Am I missing something?
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't think you show where you sourced your neutral in your main panel to feel into the new sub-panel.
If that is a load-bearing wall the framing is incorrect!
You need a lintel above the panel to take the wall load of the cut stud above and the lintel must rest on jack studs on each side going down to the base plate!
I noticed when you showed the outlet that I didn’t see a strap within the 6” required near a box.
How many circuits recommend me for a guess house included laundry? Thanks a lot
Conduit from main panel (First Means of Disconnect) Less than 24" can have 60% but might need to be derated due to ambient temps / No bushing in Main panel for wire larger than #4 / No bonding bushing / Jack studs/King studs go to the floor for load bearing to support. / No staple on romex entering bottom of outlet box / Using a MC connector for equipment ground wire should have used romex connector and should be re-identified green. Should have ran a bare #6 from the ufer
How is it your neutral and ground are bonded in your new sub panel? Isn't it code that only at the point of entrance (main panel) the ground and neutral are bonded there and no where else?
What you do with the 3rd wire going to the main breaker box I only saw you connect 2?
I need to do very similar eventually. The easiest option for me is going to be to run wire into the basement and along the walls out to the garage. Have any recommendations for what wire I should use and how to run it?
Additionally, I believe a 70A breaker is the max I could use in my main panel in the basement. It is an older panel that may be replaced at some point. It is very closer to the meter on the outside of the house. Ideally I'd like to run 100A service to the garage. Can I myself tap in at the meter to run to the sub panel? Yes I am very aware I would have to pull the meter or have a pro do it. Or would it be smarter to have another meter installed by the power company? Any thoughts you have I appreciate. Code where I am is pretty standard and you are allowed to do all your own work.
If the wire is protected through the walls you can use SER cable. But if it's not you are gonna have to run conduit and then wire.
@@802Garagethere are a lot of questions here, but I'll try to answer some. In order to install a sub panel you'll have to have 2 breaker spots next to each other in main panel or meter panel.
@@802Garageyou should have a main breaker on your meter, at least the half without the actual meter. And usually they will have another 2-pole breaker spot you can use to install a subpanel
@@sparkypride3436 Ours is old enough our meter does not have a breaker. Part of what I'd potentially like to do is install a junction box and breaker after the meter to be able to split off for the garage. I've done a ton of research on most of the code and wiring and options, but was just looking for some extra opinions so thanks a lot. :)
I see you put 2 ground bars in your box, one on each side. You tan your ground wire from the house ground to the ground bar on the right side of the box. Do you need to run another ground wire to the second ground bar on the left side? Or is it grounded by the panel box?
You can but you need not as the electical panel box grounds it all together itself. But to be honest in my own house I did.
You didn't discuss the one thing I was really interested to learn about, which is are subpanel ground supposed to be linked to neutrals? From what I saw, your subpanel neutrals are isolated from ground, which I think is correct and different from the main panel in which the neutral is tied to the ground. Thanks for the great tutorial. Edit - I see that someone else explained yes grounds should be isolated, but also not earth-grounded, but rather run back (isolated) to the main panel.
This is his electrician he has been talking too on this project and 8 hope I can clear this issue up, cause it can be a rabbit hole. 99% of the time if you are adding a sub panel you will not need to bond the ground and neutral. Just run separate wires for the neutral and ground. It is a little different if the sub panel is in a detached building. If you need those answers feel free to reach out via this comment
@@sparkypride3436 thank you very much. My situation is that I have a detached garage that has a subpanel. I'm fairly certain there are only three large cables entering the breaker panel, two hots and one that has a yellow stripe running around it. The striped cable goes to buss bars that are combined between neutrals and grounds from the different internal circuits of outlets and lights. So I'm a bit confused as to why even run two wires, when they end up in the same place! I watched several videos, and as you said, it seems like a rabbit hole! Thanks for helping.
@@dougb8207 It gets a bit complicated, but the easiest way to explain it is that the equipment grounding conductor ('the ground') should never have current flowing on it unless there is a ground fault somewhere in a circuit. The only place that isn't true is where the service enters, usually the main panel or in modern code, the main disconnect. Everywhere else, EGC/neutral needs to be separated. Often, the bundled cables for feeding sub panels use a conductor for the EGC that is smaller gauge than the H/H/N wires. There's a chart that lists what the min ground size is for the size of the other conductors. This is allowed, because, again, it only needs to be large enough to clear a fault a trip the breaker, not carry the full current of one of the hot conductors.
@bnasty267 so, I believe the striped subpage wire must be a neutral from your comments. And probably, a separate ground wire should have been run. Everything tests out fine and works fine, but that's what I was afraid of. Thanks for explaining, or trying to.
@@dougb8207 How old is the subpanel install and is the garage detached from the house? Older code (before ~2008 I think) allowed a detached building subpanel to just use 3 wires (combined neutral and ground) with a couple other requirements I can't recall. In fact, this was even common with large appliances like dryers and ovens in the past, which treated the neutral (aka the grounded conductor) as the ground (aka the ECG.) You're probably grandfathered in with your subpanel, but if you make any major changes, you might need to run the ground now that those exclusions are gone.
The codes change from county to county or state to state.
You didn't show how you separated the grounds and neutrals in your main panel. I'm assuming they must have been combined originally?
In NJ this panel would fail inspection. The ground wire in the subpanel should be run with conductors from the main panel. Neutral and Grounds are isolated from each other in the subpanel. Ground bonded to subpanel. Neutral is not bonded to the subpanel.
A second panel or sub panel should have the neutral and ground terminals or bars isolated from each other, this is why the main circuit feed to the sub panel must have 4 wires, with a dedicated insulated wire for the neutral and a separate wire for the ground.
All the ground wires bond back at the main panel together with the neutrals.
The sub panel neutral bar or terminal should not be bonded to the enclosure or the ground of the sub panel. The sub panel ground should not have a ground rod tied to it.
The bonding for the main ground sources such as a ground rod is made at the main panel where all the grounds are bonded together as well.
By code a ground wire should be a green wire or a bare copper wire and not a black wire like you have going to the main ground. Also the way you have your box mounted limits you only to use the top knockouts.
Very well explained! And thorough!!! Thx
Are you gonna bond the two ground bars you installed?
I would be interested in you doing a partial load transfer switch (not whole house) as well. I know it has less code issues but it is still a worthy topic.
may be a dumb question but i thought you couldn't drill holes into the studs to run cable through them because it makes the studs lose integrity
We’ll done video. I enjoyed it. I plan on doing a project like this too.
Technically your reframing job to install the panel doesn't meet code. There should be "jacks" installed under your bottom horizontal run to the bottom plate of the wall to support the load transferred around the box. Right now your bottom horizontal plate is relying on the nails holding it in place to support the roof load. The framework should be just like the installation of a window in a load bearing wall.
A sill cripple on each side
I thought the framing looked simply cheap .. he may know sumthin' n'bout 'lectric but ain't showin' jack about carpentry
I never saw a breaker panel outside until I started watching RUclips. How do those not short out in the rain? I don't see much weatherproofing on them.
They are rated for rain, it's just the way they are designed to shed water. If you look closely at the seams of the box you'll see what I'm taking about. It's all found under NEMA ratings. The outside panels are 3R
They do that on the west coast a lot
Breakers boxes on the outside are becoming more common and are being used as a emergency disconnect as a disconnect means for emergency personnel to spray water or entering a structure
Denergized
thanks bro for this video and others. I learned a lot today
thanks
One thing that any DIYer must be aware of is that under modern code, all breaker boxes that are newly installed must have either arc fault, ground fault, or combination breakers.
Not all breakers. It varies a lot, arc fault has different rules than ground fault. In this case if the shed/garage will be unfinished, the only requirement is that all receptacles be Ground Fault protected, not lighting, and there are no requirements for arc fault protection in this case.
Also, combination breakers only have arc-fault protection. I think you are referring to dual-function breakers.
Or u just say it was there when I bought the place
I recently made a lot of electrical upgrades in my shop. I added a 220V 30 amp circuit and a couple of 220 V 50 amp circuits and a bunch of lighting circuits along with some gas heater igniters. I assumed that you could not put two wires in a breaker and that you could not put wire nuts in a panel. I had not seen either before. I did some research and found that it was possible to do both according to code, even though no one enforces code in my area.
So, how do you come up with what size circuit breaker to use for the panel and gauge of wire? I have a really old zinsco sub panel that I want to change out. This was most likely not done to code as there is only 12ga going into the panel.
Ouch! Jump to 2 gauge, it should be big enough for a a typical subpanel. Not cheap but worth it.
what were the connectors used to connect the conduit to the electrical panel
What exactly is the torque stuff?
What kind of screws do you use to mount the panel
Great video. Thank you! Just a quick question. Is it okay to trade out a 20Amp for a 70? Isn’t that allowing too much amperage into the “once was” 20Amp line? Also, if I have a 100 am main, can I run a 70Amp break to a sub panel? Thanks, for the help and again, great video.
The short answer is no you cannot swap the 20A for a 70A. The wire is only rated for 20A and does not have enough conductors either.
He ran a new line with an appropriate gauge for the 70 amp breaker. Thats why what he did was ok. If you are talking about just replacing the breaker with 70 amps, and leaving 12 gauge wire, big no no.
HELP! I'm replacing an old Federal Pacific 100-amp panel with a 200-amp Square D Hameline panel, so I will need to upgrade the service entrance cable and want to use 2/0 THHN copper.
The outdoor meter can/box is mounted low, (30" off the ground at bottom edge of can) outside, so if I use the bottom rear 2-inch knockout of the meter can, it will put the hole through the wall below the bottom edge of the new breaker panel by about 8 inches, so I will have to make a vertical 90 upwards turn from hole in wall to bottom knockout of the new panel. I cannot find a 2" close 90 PVC electrical fitting so I'm guessing they don't make one.
My question is: how do I make that vertical 90 turn upwards? It will eventually be covered in drywall. Do I need to have the inside copper leads in conduit at all? If I use switch to 4/0 aluminum, do I need conduit inside the wall cavity? thanks in advance!
You could use a 2” LB conduit body coming out of the bottom of your meter base. I would run a 4/0 aluminum SER cable from meter base, through the LB, and into your new panel. No, you won’t need to run that 4/0 in conduit.
You better be talking to your utility company! That is their meter, not yours. If you have an old 100 amp service, I seriously doubt you have a 200 amp rated meter socket. You may not be allowed by utility company to pull the meter.
Thanks Keven. I've already cleared that with utility company, and pulled a homeowners permit for the work. DTE Edison assured me that the service is ready for 200-amp upgrade. The underground wires to the meter and meter itself were replaced last year and so was the pole. @@KevinCoop1
I take an old plastic coffee container to fashion a cover over the unused bus bars. Just a small layer of protection when the panel cover is off.
Can you add another sub panel to a sub panel when you run out of room?...How?
do you need a permit to do this work as a homeowner?
If you install the subpanel into the wall like this, there is pretty much no insulation in that spot. Furthermore, if this is a living space in the colder climate then warm moist air will be hitting the cold surfaces of the panel and water can start to condensate on the panel, which is not desirable. For those reasons I actually think you can and you should surface mount a panel.
This is a garage in Utah, and winter makes your skin split it's so dry.
Why did u enter the main panel at the top? Should have entered that 3R enclusure at the bottom.
I didn't see which type of wire you used to run your subpanel, but if it was aluminum, you failed to mention the need for antioxidant paste when hooking into your subpanel.
Anti-oxidant paste is not needed.
@@oumargx oxidation will occur on the aluminum wire because it is dissimilar to the lug holding it in. The lug is steel or copper.
Hence the need for antioxidant paste
@@crispyspa the lugs in these panels are usually tin plated aluminum, even if they are copper they are rated for both CU/AL conductors. Aluminum conductors sold today are of a much better alloy than in the past, no paste needed if you torque lugs to spec.
Great vid. How come no bushing where the thhn enters the top?
Why do I not see a bare groundwire on my box. I see two 120 volt lines coming in and a nuetral.
All my bare copper wire and white nuetrals are attached to the same bus bars.
Shouldn’t you build the wall out there to get insulation behind that panel?
last time I check 12/3 can't be use to power 240 volt lines in the video he said he has a an other in the future he will use for 240...
Good job. You don't need to use insulated screwdriver when the panel is off, regular one is fine. Only your Amazon store will be happy.
Thank you for this video.
Question:
Why is the panel less then the 36” you said NEC code says is required from any wall left or right of the panel?
I have this same situation about to come up for a main panel I need redone but it’s probably only 12 inches from the wall (has to be grandfathered being so old but if I do it new I want to be in compliance)
I believe the code states that you need 36" clearance in front of the panel plus 30" of space across the panel. Even the panel in my house (that runs the entire home) is within 18" of a wall. I may be mistaken so I'm open to being corrected here but that's how I understood it.
Its 36 inches total space. It can be close to the wall as long as you have 36 total
@@user-yb8bc7jb3c this is good to know. I have a subpanel in my garage and I tore down a wall it’s on to make it open concept. It’s probably only 24” wide. Guess now I have to relocate the panel to the next wall to make it complaint again then. Ugh
@@Lafiro no its not wall space, just open space. An imaginary box for working space
@@Lafiro and I misspoke, its 30 wide
Awesome,,,thanks,,,,however why not to install the subpanel with main c/b.? that way u dont have to go out to turn the c/b out when u wants to do some work,,,
Most likely "to the studs" remodel like I have. 24" originally with added studs during remodel.