Thank you for this. I’m new to the hobby and I didn’t realize these delays were this common. Taking customers’ money and shipping a product two years later is beyond ridiculous.
Keep in mind that GBs is the same as crowdfunding campaigns. In the end, if you’re someone that isn’t into supporting solo designers or small businesses and their efforts to make something truly unique that you won’t find anywhere else, then I agree, stay away from it and continue giving your money to big corporations.
As many things in life.... there are specific cases that GBs make sense, especially for very small companies and individuals that do not have tons of cash at hand.
when bashing on group buys its easy to hate on big name designers and manufacturers like gmk, rama, qk/owlab or whatever, but they're not the only people providing stuff for the hobby, small time designers who want to get their design out have no other choice but to use the gb model, unless they're willing to cover the massive costs that comes with custom keyboard manufacturing and logistics. Down payments pose a risk to both parties now, even if the product is absolutely perfect, the customer may choose to be a bad actor and refuse the second half of the payment, not to mention some designers don't even have profits in mind when running gbs. Also worth pointing out that some designers actually lose money when organizing group buys, e.g. koen romers with perestroika. But I do agree with you on some things, gbs pose massive risks, which is why geekhack exists to moderate such things, but there should be some policing on these things, since basically anyone can run one as long as they have a prototype or even just a render these days As for big companies, they're legitimate businesses that need to take responsibility with their products, them using the gb model shouldn't be allowed since they definitely have the capital to fulfill these orders, and probably even have their own factories and whatnot.
it's just ridiculous that the companies are so unwilling to take any financial risk and push it all to the market, and the market *agrees*. Do your market analysis and then decide on a batch size! If you fail, then it's on you, not the buyer.
Just got my JRIS65, and the coating is crap, it looks like it get scuffed by just blowing on it, I complained on thier discord and it looks like i'm not the only one, but it also looks like some people got thier JRIS65's with all the screws rusted out so i can count myself as lucky. This was my first group buy, i've been able to resist group buys by getting from mechmarket or whatever's in stock but so far, this was a crappy experience.
I agree, the one thing I have to say on their end, is there would not be nearly as many keyboards if there were no group buys, bc there would be a risk that not enough people buy them, so really I feel like you should way your options and see if they're a trusted company, and it's too risky for you, then don't get it. that's what I do and think is the best for everyone
Oh man, I just did a GB with QK. I hope they don't run into the same issues you mentioned. I agree with your suggestion. I think it has to be 50/50 or better yet like the Tesla model. Supporting an idea that one likes or believes is one thing, investing money on it, like 100% of what it costs and getting back a crappy end product or not delivering on time is another. That's a scam specially if they don't offer refunds or address the problem. That's my opinion on this matter.
Honestly I completely agree. It is unacceptable for them to do crap like this. One reason why I never participate in group buys. Imo the company should take on some of the risk as it is right now it is too unbalanced.
Some things I agree, but some I have to disagree. Yeah there are companies running GBs who might have enough cash flow and demand already to take some risk and do instock sales But many GBs are also done by individual designers whom may have ideas for what may be the perfect keyboard design for them. And people who participate in the GB would essentially be other people who share the same vision, and really want the project to come to life. Essentially, GBs are kickstarters. Early kickstarter days also began with the same spirit. But when there is money involved, that's when shady people start coming in. I also agree that GBs ran by these companies make no sense. But when there is an obscure individual designer who has no capital to manufacture a board, but have a design that really speaks to me, I am heavily incentivized to pitch into this GB, as there'd be no other way for the board to become reality. That's kinda the roots of GBs, and it's supposed to be a win-win. I strongly support those projects. But when I see large groups of people running a pretty large business purely out of GBs, I wouldn't want to support them
It seems to me that keyboard manufacturers can easily study demand and find out what people would like, make it, and then sell it as a finished product, instead of making a promise to people and not keeping it for a very long time. Even half a year is a lot, in just a few days our life can change dramatically. What can we say about several years, when by the time the keyboard reaches the addressee, it is not a fact that he will still need it.
I have been putting together a keyboard and thought it would be a good idea to do a group buy. This video has definitely changed my mind. Is there a way you see is the best to buy a keyboard? I have no idea how or where to sell it.
I agree. Fuck group buys. Can't believe the amount of awesome keyboards I see that are coming up, only for me to check on it and see the term "group buy" attached to it, which immediately kills my mood regarding that prospect. Just manufacture and sell it.
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What say you?? Do you agree?
Thank you for this. I’m new to the hobby and I didn’t realize these delays were this common. Taking customers’ money and shipping a product two years later is beyond ridiculous.
Keep in mind that GBs is the same as crowdfunding campaigns. In the end, if you’re someone that isn’t into supporting solo designers or small businesses and their efforts to make something truly unique that you won’t find anywhere else, then I agree, stay away from it and continue giving your money to big corporations.
As many things in life.... there are specific cases that GBs make sense, especially for very small companies and individuals that do not have tons of cash at hand.
when bashing on group buys its easy to hate on big name designers and manufacturers like gmk, rama, qk/owlab or whatever, but they're not the only people providing stuff for the hobby, small time designers who want to get their design out have no other choice but to use the gb model, unless they're willing to cover the massive costs that comes with custom keyboard manufacturing and logistics.
Down payments pose a risk to both parties now, even if the product is absolutely perfect, the customer may choose to be a bad actor and refuse the second half of the payment, not to mention some designers don't even have profits in mind when running gbs.
Also worth pointing out that some designers actually lose money when organizing group buys, e.g. koen romers with perestroika.
But I do agree with you on some things, gbs pose massive risks, which is why geekhack exists to moderate such things, but there should be some policing on these things, since basically anyone can run one as long as they have a prototype or even just a render these days
As for big companies, they're legitimate businesses that need to take responsibility with their products, them using the gb model shouldn't be allowed since they definitely have the capital to fulfill these orders, and probably even have their own factories and whatnot.
it's just ridiculous that the companies are so unwilling to take any financial risk and push it all to the market, and the market *agrees*. Do your market analysis and then decide on a batch size! If you fail, then it's on you, not the buyer.
Just got my JRIS65, and the coating is crap, it looks like it get scuffed by just blowing on it, I complained on thier discord and it looks like i'm not the only one, but it also looks like some people got thier JRIS65's with all the screws rusted out so i can count myself as lucky. This was my first group buy, i've been able to resist group buys by getting from mechmarket or whatever's in stock but so far, this was a crappy experience.
I agree, the one thing I have to say on their end, is there would not be nearly as many keyboards if there were no group buys, bc there would be a risk that not enough people buy them, so really I feel like you should way your options and see if they're a trusted company, and it's too risky for you, then don't get it. that's what I do and think is the best for everyone
Oh man, I just did a GB with QK. I hope they don't run into the same issues you mentioned. I agree with your suggestion. I think it has to be 50/50 or better yet like the Tesla model. Supporting an idea that one likes or believes is one thing, investing money on it, like 100% of what it costs and getting back a crappy end product or not delivering on time is another. That's a scam specially if they don't offer refunds or address the problem. That's my opinion on this matter.
Honestly I completely agree. It is unacceptable for them to do crap like this. One reason why I never participate in group buys. Imo the company should take on some of the risk as it is right now it is too unbalanced.
Some things I agree, but some I have to disagree. Yeah there are companies running GBs who might have enough cash flow and demand already to take some risk and do instock sales
But many GBs are also done by individual designers whom may have ideas for what may be the perfect keyboard design for them. And people who participate in the GB would essentially be other people who share the same vision, and really want the project to come to life.
Essentially, GBs are kickstarters. Early kickstarter days also began with the same spirit. But when there is money involved, that's when shady people start coming in. I also agree that GBs ran by these companies make no sense.
But when there is an obscure individual designer who has no capital to manufacture a board, but have a design that really speaks to me, I am heavily incentivized to pitch into this GB, as there'd be no other way for the board to become reality. That's kinda the roots of GBs, and it's supposed to be a win-win. I strongly support those projects.
But when I see large groups of people running a pretty large business purely out of GBs, I wouldn't want to support them
It seems to me that keyboard manufacturers can easily study demand and find out what people would like, make it, and then sell it as a finished product, instead of making a promise to people and not keeping it for a very long time. Even half a year is a lot, in just a few days our life can change dramatically. What can we say about several years, when by the time the keyboard reaches the addressee, it is not a fact that he will still need it.
I have been putting together a keyboard and thought it would be a good idea to do a group buy. This video has definitely changed my mind. Is there a way you see is the best to buy a keyboard? I have no idea how or where to sell it.
I agree. Fuck group buys. Can't believe the amount of awesome keyboards I see that are coming up, only for me to check on it and see the term "group buy" attached to it, which immediately kills my mood regarding that prospect. Just manufacture and sell it.