Man shusaku makes the game feel so easy...He isnt getting greedy,he isnt trying to make super complicated things.He just pokes the shapes at the right moment,gives no chance to his oppenent and never gets into trouble..When the oppenent asks for something,he just makes a trade and again avoids getting in trouble.
I really liked this video. By contrasting the old style from this game with how peope pay now I learned a lot about different styles of playing. I would like to see more of this.
Wow. I'm new to your work, a new subscriber, and I see that this is rather older. But still, I *love* classic games, and am thrilled to see this. I also love your restrained tone when dealing with Shusaku. Thank you.
Wow, that was nice to see 8 years after. It's very interesting to have the original difference of playstyle between 2013 and the time of the game, and at the same time, there are even some differences between 2020s and 2013 (especially in the choices of joseki in the beginning, you seemed very intrigued by some choices at that time while now they would feel normal, for example the corner enclosure in top left). I really enjoyed the reduction in the end game, there is one move I really dislike from white and that strikes me as super slow (capturing the stone on the right at 39:00). And we can see that they tend to their shapes. However, some shapes feel super odd, especially in the center right with multiple "squares" of one space jumps, they seem to leave so many defects behind.
nice to see a new video like this^^ and i would agree with you...the "old" games have a unique "peaceful" feeling in their flow of the stones.of course there are figthing games but except real blunders or do-or-die moves the fights in this games were started in a way that they have a feeling from less power but they were more secure...that is my impression.. I'm looking forward to more of these videos.^^
I really liked that you chose an older game for a change! Although when I was trying to study Shuusaku games, I realized how old the style was and not played anymore, so it was harder to learn a lot of applicable concepts. Any commentary to bring these games to more of a modern level is very appreciated.
This was a brilliant change from the modern games. While the game seems very very calm, the brilliance of end game and how Shuusaku made everything shrink to almost nothing was awesome. Still so much to learn *sigh*
I like how you place stones exactly on the cross of the lines. some commentaries let it shift (which is annoying) Also, thanks for your free commentary it helps English speaking community to learn.
Man, this is 11 years ago?! I love your reviews so I HAVE to find if you have something Shuusaku since I just started learning this year. To know you've been playing this long is inspiring and makes me want to learn better!
10 лет назад+1
I did like this game although it really seems quite strange for some 21st century eyes. I would be really happy if you bring more historical games to us as you are the best of all go commenters I have seen so far :)
to clarify the opening moves i think its necessary to remember that back in shusaku's time there was no komi. wich gave a big advantage to black, and changes the opening strategies for white.
Interesting game, thank you! The commentary definitely helps me (20 kyu). I wouldn't mind seeing a game that does go to counting, I have trouble with my end-game too.
Thank you very much for the commentary! I actually had a thought that it would be interesting to view a sequence of games illustrating the evolution of play style over centuries. There's no other way to tell about it but commented games really. Also, my word for this game is not peaceful, but safe.
31:57 lol i had the same feeling but when i thought of peaceful and how the way the game is going i just thought of it as simple and just silent moves..not sure if that makes sense but peaceful i guess you can call it but i think this game is just silent even tho that makes kind of no sense
I liked the simplicity and calmness of the moves. On my level, there is definitely a lot to learn from them. PS: Even on a real board the game tree is not safe from you.
+dwyrin ty I just like higher ranked players to go over and give there own opinion on players from the Honinbo Shusaku era....especially Shusaku himself because I honestly still believe the way black and white was played back then should still be the same now even if white has the 6.5 komi I just don't think it's big enough to the point where the majority of players play style of white and black has completely changed...I remember in Nick Sibicky's channel he said that Shusaku or maybe Shuwa (I don't remember) said that the 3-4 point will always be the best point to open with and i'm not sure why but my gut feeling or instincts tell me that is completely true and that back then there was something sort of like Komi and Shusaku said that he would pay 5 points to play as Black...not sure if this means anything but point is having someone like you or maybe Haylee review Shusaku's games would give me a clearer/better understanding of how/why they played certain moves and ...yea idk I'm just interested in how they play 150-200 years ago then how people play now....I really don't know what it is but I just have this feelings like Pro's just arent as good as some of the most famous players from back then...there's just something different/turns me off from the way most higher ranked players play (Of course not all moves look bad but some just seem out of place or maybe they couldve done better especially in the opening to mid game)...srry for the big response just wanted to say how i felt xD but i can 100% understand the reason/excuse of time especially in online games being in an issue...just limits a players reading but in tournaments with 3 hrs time I just feel like there could be better moves played for different strategies there thinking)
It's not just komi. Back then, there was a longer games. They continued for days. Incredibly long time to think and figure everything out. So games were incredibly deep, even if they were statistically not that advanced as today go games.
If the goal is not just win, but win with most possible pints, then ancient games are no different from modern. Playing black or white, you have to do your best in every case.But I have a feeling that back then, the goal was to win by as small difference as possible to show off your mastery of reding opponent's mind.
Hey, thank you for your videos. Even though in like 15k and lose most fights and corners, i have been following your advise and i always have enough influence that converts to territory that makes up for the fights and groups that should die but i totally let live :S. Thank you bro.
My guess is that Shûsaku, were he alive today, would be able to reliably challenge today's top players, provided he becomes familiar with current playing styles - which of course differ from those of the late Edo era. He just might be able to know their weaknesses and use them to his advantage.
I really enjoy your way of clearly explaining professional games in a way that an amateur like me can understand. But why is it a secret who plays white? :)
If I remember correctly, there was no komi in Shusaku's time, which might explain why black is playing conservatively from the start. Sai said he never lost a game playing black. ;-)
Michiel Helvensteijn Shusaku did loose as black later on when played strong players but if ur talking about sai from the anime....i dont remember him saying that (doubt it's true though) and i remember hearing a story that back then they didnt have "komi" but something sort of like it...and shusaku said he would pay 5 point's to play as black
Yeah, I'm referring to Sai from Hikaru No Go (who was, in the anime, the one actually playing for Shusaku). He said he never lost as black. Since there was no komi, he could play defensively, knowing he was ahead from the start. Komi is the reason Shusaku's kosumi is not played much anymore.
ah okay and yes i dont think shusaku would play his kosumi much now at days if white took the other corner because I almost always see him make an enclosure at the bottom right of his 3-4 stone when white takes the 4th corner (idk for some reason i dont think the kosumi isnt used because of komi alone i think shusaku would not play his kosumi since komi allows white to safety take the 4th corner But black still get's sente whether you take the corner or not which makes me feel the komi most of the time isnt very big ....so i think komi allowing the 4th corner to be taken my white is the main reason shusaku wouldnt use his kosumi...but after enxclose if white approches the top right where shusaku kosumi is available i would be say it's bad i think it's a very good move but it's probably a little small or a little slow....im 9kyu kgs 13 kyu tygem and i personally feel because of komi itself i think now at days white is able to use the shusaku kosumi because from the beginning white doesnt have sente but had a few point's that could allow the white player to be defensive solid and flexible while black has to be a bit more active (not as active and white in the edo period where a fight had to start right away almost every game just had to play bigger move).........mmmmm then again even when there wasnt komi alot of very strong players (shuei.dosaku,shuwa,shusaku had beaten there opponent whether black or white by....but mainly as black....by around 13 point's) so i think even if the 4th corner is taken with the komi black should still have a slight advantage if not it should be even because black has sente .....bleh im typing to much
i think it's not when the game was played that matters but the skill of the players. there is a book of commented games of shusaku (in English), which i can share with you, Dwyrin. Unless you already have it)
I laugh when people say that Honinbo Shusaku and Gennin Inseki would only be top amateurs today. You can clearly see that Shusaku's reading would be at least mid level professional today. His decision making and direction of play were very advanced too. I'd say his strength back then would be roughly equivalent to someone like Michael Redmond or Andy Liu ( ELO of 2900-3100). To say that our knowledge base grew so much and we are so much better today at Go than the 1860's that the top 2 players -- 8 Dan Pro's would not even be professional players at all in today's game is the height of arrogance. I find that Shusaku's reading ability alone was way ahead of his time. It took players like Go Seigen to even match it.
thanks for posting this. who is white, when was this game? what is your count estimate at the end? at a glance i'd say 40 something to 60 something points am i way off? i'm curious how strong the opponent was. need to watch this again to understand what happened in the endgame which was crushing of course.
There is a game between Cho u and yoda norimoto somewere on youtube. The game looks and feels solid but it feels almost just as fighty IMO (im just a 1 Dan)
passive is the word you were looking for, and it feels strange because you review so many korean and chinese modern pros :) White is on the attack more often in the early and mid-game and black is just trying to make shape more often because of the no komi of the time. Nonetheless I find Shusaku games very interesting, and really good for a newer player like myself to learn fundamentals.
Can't you just in the movie editor flip it 180 degrees? That way there would be no problems when you say directions and would make you more comfortable. Or flip the camera 180 degrees but it might be harder for you. And personally, I'd like if you alternate between old and new games. Thanks for all your Go videos!
Its cool, I think bloody lectures less fun because we cant see all reasons why pro player plays right here, but in calm games its easier to understand logic and to learn faster
you've got to be very careful when you're opponent literally has all day to out read you. That said if they could have learned what alpha go has taught us they would have changed their styles too
Man shusaku makes the game feel so easy...He isnt getting greedy,he isnt trying to make super complicated things.He just pokes the shapes at the right moment,gives no chance to his oppenent and never gets into trouble..When the oppenent asks for something,he just makes a trade and again avoids getting in trouble.
more Shusaku games please you are really good at reviewing and like to see more of the old games
I really liked this video. By contrasting the old style from this game with how peope pay now I learned a lot about different styles of playing. I would like to see more of this.
Wow. I'm new to your work, a new subscriber, and I see that this is rather older. But still, I *love* classic games, and am thrilled to see this. I also love your restrained tone when dealing with Shusaku. Thank you.
The diagonal move you suggested when white made a knight approach to the 3-4 stone was actually invented by Shusaku, I believe.
Wow, that was nice to see 8 years after. It's very interesting to have the original difference of playstyle between 2013 and the time of the game, and at the same time, there are even some differences between 2020s and 2013 (especially in the choices of joseki in the beginning, you seemed very intrigued by some choices at that time while now they would feel normal, for example the corner enclosure in top left).
I really enjoyed the reduction in the end game, there is one move I really dislike from white and that strikes me as super slow (capturing the stone on the right at 39:00). And we can see that they tend to their shapes. However, some shapes feel super odd, especially in the center right with multiple "squares" of one space jumps, they seem to leave so many defects behind.
nice to see a new video like this^^ and i would agree with you...the "old" games have a unique "peaceful" feeling in their flow of the stones.of course there are figthing games but except real blunders or do-or-die moves the fights in this games were started in a way that they have a feeling from less power but they were more secure...that is my impression.. I'm looking forward to more of these videos.^^
I really liked that you chose an older game for a change! Although when I was trying to study Shuusaku games, I realized how old the style was and not played anymore, so it was harder to learn a lot of applicable concepts. Any commentary to bring these games to more of a modern level is very appreciated.
The word 'serene' come to mind a lot when I replay Edo period games.
This was a brilliant change from the modern games. While the game seems very very calm, the brilliance of end game and how Shuusaku made everything shrink to almost nothing was awesome. Still so much to learn *sigh*
I like how you place stones exactly on the cross of the lines. some commentaries let it shift (which is annoying)
Also, thanks for your free commentary it helps English speaking community to learn.
Very nice review! clear and easy to follow, even for a beginner!
Nice game, would love to see more of them!
The endgame was brutal. Poor white.
Man, this is 11 years ago?! I love your reviews so I HAVE to find if you have something Shuusaku since I just started learning this year. To know you've been playing this long is inspiring and makes me want to learn better!
I did like this game although it really seems quite strange for some 21st century eyes. I would be really happy if you bring more historical games to us as you are the best of all go commenters I have seen so far :)
to clarify the opening moves i think its necessary to remember that back in shusaku's time there was no komi. wich gave a big advantage to black, and changes the opening strategies for white.
Good to see another go related video!
Interesting game, thank you! The commentary definitely helps me (20 kyu). I wouldn't mind seeing a game that does go to counting, I have trouble with my end-game too.
I'd love to see more games from between this era and the 50s
Thank you very much for the commentary!
I actually had a thought that it would be interesting to view a sequence of games illustrating the evolution of play style over centuries. There's no other way to tell about it but commented games really.
Also, my word for this game is not peaceful, but safe.
31:57 lol i had the same feeling but when i thought of peaceful and how the way the game is going i just thought of it as simple and just silent moves..not sure if that makes sense but peaceful i guess you can call it but i think this game is just silent even tho that makes kind of no sense
@dwyrin, who's playing White?
Good review again. Could you do a game review to show your guess why no pro plays nirensei anymore with black?
Ngl I really like this setup more than your modern real board lectures, but both are still good
I liked the simplicity and calmness of the moves. On my level, there is definitely a lot to learn from them.
PS: Even on a real board the game tree is not safe from you.
i can imagine the bloodthirsty mob: "Kill all those stones! RAWRRRHGHG"
That endgame made my cry... for a minute... I'm to manly to cry for too long.
I do hope he does another shusaku review/commentary
Daniel Saint I will give it a go
+dwyrin ty I just like higher ranked players to go over and give there own opinion on players from the Honinbo Shusaku era....especially Shusaku himself because I honestly still believe the way black and white was played back then should still be the same now even if white has the 6.5 komi I just don't think it's big enough to the point where the majority of players play style of white and black has completely changed...I remember in Nick Sibicky's channel he said that Shusaku or maybe Shuwa (I don't remember) said that the 3-4 point will always be the best point to open with and i'm not sure why but my gut feeling or instincts tell me that is completely true and that back then there was something sort of like Komi and Shusaku said that he would pay 5 points to play as Black...not sure if this means anything but point is having someone like you or maybe Haylee review Shusaku's games would give me a clearer/better understanding of how/why they played certain moves and ...yea idk I'm just interested in how they play 150-200 years ago then how people play now....I really don't know what it is but I just have this feelings like Pro's just arent as good as some of the most famous players from back then...there's just something different/turns me off from the way most higher ranked players play (Of course not all moves look bad but some just seem out of place or maybe they couldve done better especially in the opening to mid game)...srry for the big response just wanted to say how i felt xD but i can 100% understand the reason/excuse of time especially in online games being in an issue...just limits a players reading but in tournaments with 3 hrs time I just feel like there could be better moves played for different strategies there thinking)
It's not just komi. Back then, there was a longer games. They continued for days. Incredibly long time to think and figure everything out. So games were incredibly deep, even if they were statistically not that advanced as today go games.
Also, that feeling" can be linked to the feeling classical music gives us.Shusaku's go is classical go , that is.
If the goal is not just win, but win with most possible pints, then ancient games are no different from modern. Playing black or white, you have to do your best in every case.But I have a feeling that back then, the goal was to win by as small difference as possible to show off your mastery of reding opponent's mind.
Hey, thank you for your videos. Even though in like 15k and lose most fights and corners, i have been following your advise and i always have enough influence that converts to territory that makes up for the fights and groups that should die but i totally let live :S.
Thank you bro.
My guess is that Shûsaku, were he alive today, would be able to reliably challenge today's top players, provided he becomes familiar with current playing styles - which of course differ from those of the late Edo era. He just might be able to know their weaknesses and use them to his advantage.
ear reddening game please
That is a tough, brutal game. Quite a grind.
Can you do a review on Honinbo Dosaku games?
watch hikaru no go you will get an idea of what modern shusaku looks like
Ohohoho. "You would GO with a chinese or a japanese player". Crack me up everytime, Dwyrin.
Where'd you get your board and stones from and how much were they?
yaaaay~ go video :D also yes more ancient go :D could i request some honinbo shuei? o.o shuei is the best honinbo :D
I love this
Thanks for saying so! These videos are quite old quality to what I release nowadays >
Can you go over a game of Go Seigen?
thank you, I thought you were too busy to play simcity to upload new go videos.
Thank you very much :)
lol not only on kgs do you break your trees but actual boards too
I really enjoy your way of clearly explaining professional games in a way that an amateur like me can understand. But why is it a secret who plays white? :)
Different era, probably different strategies.
they tried to simulate how players would react to a modern shusaku, the game's themselves were just random pro games that were well rated.
If I remember correctly, there was no komi in Shusaku's time, which might explain why black is playing conservatively from the start. Sai said he never lost a game playing black. ;-)
Michiel Helvensteijn Shusaku did loose as black later on when played strong players but if ur talking about sai from the anime....i dont remember him saying that (doubt it's true though) and i remember hearing a story that back then they didnt have "komi" but something sort of like it...and shusaku said he would pay 5 point's to play as black
Yeah, I'm referring to Sai from Hikaru No Go (who was, in the anime, the one actually playing for Shusaku). He said he never lost as black. Since there was no komi, he could play defensively, knowing he was ahead from the start. Komi is the reason Shusaku's kosumi is not played much anymore.
ah okay and yes i dont think shusaku would play his kosumi much now at days if white took the other corner because I almost always see him make an enclosure at the bottom right of his 3-4 stone when white takes the 4th corner (idk for some reason i dont think the kosumi isnt used because of komi alone i think shusaku would not play his kosumi since komi allows white to safety take the 4th corner But black still get's sente whether you take the corner or not which makes me feel the komi most of the time isnt very big ....so i think komi allowing the 4th corner to be taken my white is the main reason shusaku wouldnt use his kosumi...but after enxclose if white approches the top right where shusaku kosumi is available i would be say it's bad i think it's a very good move but it's probably a little small or a little slow....im 9kyu kgs 13 kyu tygem and i personally feel because of komi itself i think now at days white is able to use the shusaku kosumi because from the beginning white doesnt have sente but had a few point's that could allow the white player to be defensive solid and flexible while black has to be a bit more active (not as active and white in the edo period where a fight had to start right away almost every game just had to play bigger move).........mmmmm then again even when there wasnt komi alot of very strong players (shuei.dosaku,shuwa,shusaku had beaten there opponent whether black or white by....but mainly as black....by around 13 point's) so i think even if the 4th corner is taken with the komi black should still have a slight advantage if not it should be even because black has sente .....bleh im typing to much
i think it's not when the game was played that matters but the skill of the players. there is a book of commented games of shusaku (in English), which i can share with you, Dwyrin. Unless you already have it)
In general, if Shusaku is ahead, there will be no difficult fighting.
theres hikaru no go as an idea. search out sai vs toya maejin thats a slightly more agressive game.
Just curious, but what type of material are your stones/board made out of?
agathis floor board - shop.gogameguru.com/agathis-go-board-24/ with glass stones
I laugh when people say that Honinbo Shusaku and Gennin Inseki would only be top amateurs today. You can clearly see that Shusaku's reading would be at least mid level professional today. His decision making and direction of play were very advanced too. I'd say his strength back then would be roughly equivalent to someone like Michael Redmond or Andy Liu ( ELO of 2900-3100).
To say that our knowledge base grew so much and we are so much better today at Go than the 1860's that the top 2 players -- 8 Dan Pro's would not even be professional players at all in today's game is the height of arrogance.
I find that Shusaku's reading ability alone was way ahead of his time. It took players like Go Seigen to even match it.
thanks for posting this. who is white, when was this game? what is your count estimate at the end? at a glance i'd say 40 something to 60 something points am i way off? i'm curious how strong the opponent was. need to watch this again to understand what happened in the endgame which was crushing of course.
I find this game to be a bit easier to understand than those of current top Go players. At least it does not appear to be as violent ^^
When we review old games, we have to keep in mind that there was no komi back then.
theres shasuku ear reddening game thats a little more agressive
There is a game between Cho u and yoda norimoto somewere on youtube. The game looks and feels solid but it feels almost just as fighty IMO (im just a 1 Dan)
passive is the word you were looking for, and it feels strange because you review so many korean and chinese modern pros :)
White is on the attack more often in the early and mid-game and black is just trying to make shape more often because of the no komi of the time. Nonetheless I find Shusaku games very interesting, and really good for a newer player like myself to learn fundamentals.
Can't you just in the movie editor flip it 180 degrees? That way there would be no problems when you say directions and would make you more comfortable. Or flip the camera 180 degrees but it might be harder for you.
And personally, I'd like if you alternate between old and new games.
Thanks for all your Go videos!
YES
Its cool, I think bloody lectures less fun because we cant see all reasons why pro player plays right here, but in calm games its easier to understand logic and to learn faster
Looks like an alphago’s game >100 years before alphago.
Hi, I vote for the blood vomiting game next.
1.5 speed for slow to Go.
kato masao older game please. when he was an aggresive attacker. not when he became "kato end game".
what is this sim city all about?? not an english speaker thou
you've got to be very careful when you're opponent literally has all day to out read you. That said if they could have learned what alpha go has taught us they would have changed their styles too
SIMCITYYYYYY !!!!!
老外天才教我下围棋不？
谢谢！对不起。我不会说中文
sink that battleship!