Additional "Witnesses" of the Book of Mormon Gold Plates | LDS Discussions Ep. 54 | Ep. 1898
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- In this riveting interview, @nemothemormon and @analyzingmormonism are back to delve into the lesser-known accounts surrounding the plates of the Book of Mormon. Witness testimonies, some published decades after the events, paint a conflicting picture of the plates' appearance, size, and the circumstances under which they were allegedly shown. From the curious case of Josiah Stoll, who claimed to be the first to handle the plates, to Mary Whitmer's visionary encounter with an enigmatic figure, "Brother Nephi," who purportedly showed her the plates, we explore the enduring myths of Mormonism's foundational narrative.
Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
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Talking fast can be a sign of fearful of taking up space in a conversation. We're here to hear you, Julia! Take up all the space you can!
As a never-Mo, LDS Discussions is my favorite deep dive into American history. Not just the events of the times, but the mindsets and world views that inform so much of what happened that I didn't learn about in school.
I love all of the LDS Discussions! Thank you all for doing the work and telling the truth.
I love them too! Never stop!
@@SilentThundersnowYes, this massive body of work deserves some form of Exmo award 👏🏆🎖️
So much value here! Thanks to you all for your incredible scholarship and willingness to share!
The reason Julia talks so fast is because she has genius level intelligence. I see her becoming the next Fawn Brodie or Sandra Tanner.
The story about the gold plates was basically the family business for Joseph Smith's family. When Emma continues to sell the story in 1879...she's conducting the family business (and her son took over the leadership of a branch of the business). When Lucy Mack Smith continues to sell the story...it's the family business. When Joseph Smith, Sr. is selling "patriarchal blessings" based on Joe Junior's prophetic authority, derived from the story about the gold plates...he's profiting from the family business. The Whitmers, Smiths (incl. cousin Cowdery) and Harris were all invested in the business in the start-up phase. Joe cut off Harris and the Whitmers from sharing in the business, bringing in new partners who he needed more. Joe cut off Cowdery as punishment for Cowdery criticizing him. All of those "witlesses" left the business, but never confessed to having been liars for the business (as if they would ever want to do that). No miracles required. No magic required. A type of scenario that is not unusual in observable reality throughout human history.
Josiah Stowell’s testimony may give the answer to what the plates were made of. When copper reacts with oxygen, it oxidizes and generates a greenish-blue layer that protects the metal from further corrosion. Any metal that contains a high amount of copper can turn green.
The plates probably were not made of pure copper, or else they would have weighed more. But it could have been some kind of copper alloy.
I think you are absolutely correct about the reason why Joseph Smith kept the plates wrapped up and forbade most people from looking at them-someone looking at them with a critical eye would have been able to tell they weren’t genuine ancient artifacts.
Joseph was told that the plates in the ground are gold. Hence the reason why he thought of selling them
What a great panel!
Thank you for your amazing work 💜☮️
When John Dehlin says “it’s just a random old man” in regards to Mary Whitmers’ statement.. that had me cracking up 😂.. mic 🎤 drop..
Totally. I wonder if Joseph Smith hired the Old Moroni/Nephi.
I'm excited for this episode, one of my friends says his grandparent was asked to hide the gold plates, and it is part of their family story now. I really wonder
😂
IMHO, It would have been his 5x grandpa to get back to the gold plates. 😮
That would have made it during WW2 at best. Moroni took them back more than 100 years prior. 👻📒😂
Julia, thank you for your continued efforts to slow your speech to a comfortable listening pace. You are so intelligent and insightful.
An LDS Discussion video discussing Emma Smith and her credibility and statements regarding polygamy would be really helpful. I know they were touched on in the early polygamy videos, but something more condensed focusing on her credibility would be nice
Let me see if I understand this correctly. There are all kinds of bad guys looking for the plates in order to steal them. They follow Joe around looking for an opportunity to get them. They chase him through the woods. But they can't figure out where Joe lives? Joe just leaves them on a table covered with a hanky (per Emma's 1879 statement), mostly unattended except when Emma has to move them around to dust and clean things. It never occurred to the bad guys to watch the house, conceal their faces, bust in and run off with the plates when Emma's out feeding the chickens and Joe isn't home?
Tumbaga (80% Copper, 15% Silver, 5% Gold), 6"x8"x6" would be 115LB, not 40LB to 60LB.
Talking fast and saying things that are intelligent is a super power. It’s like how, Hamilton the musical is 144 words per minute and is two hours and 23 minutes. It allows it to tell more of a story than other musicals. It would take up six hours to perform at the pace of other Broadway shows.
God would never insist tht man have faith in other men though. So there’s no reason he wouldn’t want the plates to be a visible testament to all man. God knows how men are. They only “perfect “man ever made was indeed crucified. Anyway my point is,God wouldn’t have us HAVING to have faith in any one man. Such as Joe Smith
Excellent point! Faith is only good if it's placed correctly. People put their faith into all kinds of things that turn out to be wrong and their misplaced faith leads to disaster. And, in reality, that's what Mormonism is...faith in Joseph Smith and his closest friends and relatives...faith that they were telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth when they created a narrative (mostly Joseph Smith's concoction) that requires belief in a magic glow-in-the-dark resurrected man-angel named Moroni, who delivered gold plates, magic translator crystals and a breastplate...and then magically whisked them away up to a storage unit in heaven, so that nobody outside of Joseph Smith's circle of friends and relatives could ever independently examine them.
The 1820s: No television, no radio, no movies. If you want fantasy entertainment you have to make it up yourself. Sit around the campfire and tell each other ghost stories or stories about a decapitated Hessian horseman down near Tarry Town who emerges from his grave every night to go out and search for his head (which probably found its way into the collection of the Daughter of Jared or the Daughter of Herod). The various stories about the Loch Ness Monster and Big Foot have as much or more going for them than the tales of Moroni, the glow-in-the-dark resurrected man-angel who delivered magic translation crystals to Joseph Smith that turned out to be unnecessary because Joe already had his own magic rock that worked better and did more stuff and had more apps. (Incidentally, all of the basic elements of the story (except for Moroni) can be found in Exodus 28 of the very bible that was owned by the Smiths: A breastplate, engravings on gold plates and...the Urim & Thummim. Just a coincidence fer sure.)
This was a very interesting episode. Julia did a great job with the research. People in the church just trust the account of the eithnesses without knowing all the inconsistencies and problems with the accounts. Great episode
It's important to note that Joseph's earliest letter to Emma was written nearly 6 years after they were married. Oh, how delighted she must have been to witness her husband be able to now compose. It's a poetic example of true companionship and how receptive he was to her lessons and devotion.
This is a valuable video. I had heard of many of these witnesses elsewhere from faithful sources, but never realized just how problematic the accounts are.
I'm excited to hear what happened to all of these stellar witnesses ;)
The statement you’ve cited from Emma is part of the same exact interview she had with Joseph the 3rd. It’s the same interview where she can be proven to lie repeatedly about polygamy.
Interestingly, too, she discusses the rock and the hat version of the translation.
Fascinating how many people in the comments are practicing Mormons and not skeptics
@45:00 imagining Joseph Smith walking around with a stone in a hat while everyone else digs and does stuff. I need a mormon parody of the "dig dig dig" song from Pocahontas Disney movie but it's Joseph Smith as the rich guy 😂
Julia did a lot of research for this episode. Way to go!
So informative I enjoyef it a lot :)
Is there any other case where the sacred text was not allow to be seen by the public?
That's usually what happens with evidence needed to prove something is not a scam...when it actually is a scam. Mormons probably wish that Moroni had also hauled the Chandler papyrus scrolls (from which the Book of Abraham was supposedly translated) up to heaven, so that they could not be seen by competent Egyptologists. I guess Moroni's contract didn't include removing papyri records from Earth. That was probably Abraham's job (presumably another glow-in-the-dark resurrected man angel by that time). But Abraham was probably too busy counting his progeny, so he never bothered to put in an appearance at any point in the process.
GREAT POINT!
It did kinda feel like Julia talked at the speed of "I need to get my words out before my kids interrupt me" haha but yoir research and presentation js fanststic!
“Classic example of how young moms talk!”😮 My daughter speaks fast too so I’m a little oriented to that language.
Any way try slowing but know your content is exceptionally. 😊
I always listen at 2x speed, and it does make her go pretty fast, but I think it's worth it to finish the video in half the time. Love your content!
I love the lady. The taking so fast (which John can do and I can do and a million others can do) make me anxious to listen to. I get it's nervous and trying to fit it all in, but maybe something to work on. This series is great
That’s the A Team!
Thank you all for your hard work and individual contributions!
Would love to hear an LDS discussions episode exclusively on the Adamic language. I laughed so dare at the amen, amen, amen with all of you XD
Witnesses are so vital that any court case brings forth witnesses. Non-witness cases, such as rape, tend to be problematic for getting convictions. So, is it important to have witnesses? Yes. Is it important to vet them, as was done in this podcast? Also, yes. Julia and the rest of the team have tackled an important piece of the JS puzzle.
I’m glad you covered Lucy Harris, I read about that on my own and never heard anyone else mention it.
It seems like it’s likely Lucy Mack just made up/embellished the story for her memoir, but there have been other stories where an “angel” shows up to convince someone to go through with stuff they didn’t want to do, like Mary Whitmer, as you mentioned (and that probably is made up too), and Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, who saw an “angel” as a confirmation she should go ahead and marry Joseph. Why are there so many stories of angels appearing to get people to do stuff. Did Joseph (or an accomplice) dress up to scare people into following him?
"Who's to say, we weren't there" - and with that, Mike deleted his website and LDS Discussions tragically ended forever.
So do you only interview LDS Mormons or FLDS Mormons also?
Both.
They've interviewed former Church of Christ, Scientologists, Moonies, etc. as well.
Not all of the Book of Mormon witnesss stayed with the church but never renounced their testimonies😊
Mike just gave Mark Hofman a scathingly brilliant idea! Forge letters of one or more of the 3 guys that JS said were chasing him in an attempt to steal the gold plates. The church would buy those up instantly!
Book of Joseph: "Out of the mouths of many hefters, shall the truth be known." I once bought the largest, clearest, highest-grade diamond in the world for $3,500 (a bargain to be sure!). I wasn't allowed to see it, but the seller said that he saw it and two of his brothers and one of his best friends all said that they hefted it while it was wrapped in a cloth. If you can't trust a bunch of closely related hefters, who can you trust? After buying it, I asked for it to be delivered to my home. They told me it doesn't work that way. It has to be stored in a very remote location for safety and to protect it perfectly...even I can't know the location. I was very happy to know how much effort they were putting into protecting my diamond.
I’d like to subscribe to the ownership of this diamond…for 10% of my income. /s 😂
Why in the world would Moroni be walking around with these plates? If they were supposed to be hidden in the ground and then put in charge of them by Joseph? No old man is walking up a street with golden plates to share these with some woman who’s tired
Martin Harris saw Jesus appear to him as a deer in the woods. None of these "witlesses" are credible. I believe that when they weren't lying for personal gain, they were entertaining themselves and each other with far-fetched tales of miraculous and magical experiences. Joe's fairy tales about Moroni and the gold plates would be no less credible if Moroni was a leprechaun instead of a glow-in-the-dark resurrected Nephite man-angel.
Thanks!
Regarding whether or not Emma would have peeked on the plates in or out out of sight, it can be answered quite simply. Would you open your partners laptop or their un-password protected phone lying on the table in plain sight? John, do you trust your partner, or more importantly, does she trust you?
1:15:00 To Mike's point here, where is the notes or journal of a Palmyra doctor on 23 September 1827 discussing treating one to three men with injuries consistent with being struck by a 40 to 60 pound metal book or consistent with other means Joseph would have had to defend himself? It's not just the lack of comments and details from folks who would have been directly involved, it's the lack of data that supports the circumstances of the events described. Granted, it is unlikely that health records from 1827 Palmyra are complete, robust, and accurate. However, this lack of circumstantial, scene-building evidence is a throughline that pervades the faithful Mormon narrative. It even infests the text of the Book of Mormon itself.
“When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the HILL CUMORAH, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls…” -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, June 17th, 1877.
MANY WAGON LOADS…but not even one shred of metal or the evidence of a cave has ever been found. What a miracle! 🫨👻📒
Just as recently as last week, one of the loud and proud defenders of the faith on one of the faithful Mormon channels was hypothesizing that the sacred objects shown by Moroni to the Three Witnesses really existed in an alternative dimension and the reason why Martin Harris was not ready to see it when David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery were was because the brain had to be transfigured structurally in order to see and this brain transfiguration had not yet been sufficiently completed for Martin. I was thinking: Yeah...sure. That's so plausible. How can people NOT believe in Mormonism? LOL So of course the cavern full of wagon loads of plates (and don't forget that the sword of Laban was also there)...was in that alternative dimension.
I'd be super interested to know more about the "sealed portion". It's such a weird part of the story and I'd love to know what the deal is with that.
She says she's gonna talk slower and then she immediately goes into her rapid-fire speaking style anyway. This millennial girl is impossible. 😕
The more hear this history of Joseph Smith, the more I understand "Heavens Gate" cult as well as Jim Jones and Goresh. This is so obviously about control and money. I feel sad for my family and friends that still participate in this complete fable. I was a young mormon girl when I could feel in my heart and brain that this didn't seem right. I am not a really smart person. However, I have always allowed myself to be a free thinker. I was most uncomfortable with many teachings of the mormon church. Still, it makes me sad because I try not to hurt my family and friends whom are members.
I will bet dollars to dimes that those gold plates don’t exist.
Wouldn’t it be fun if Hollywood made a movie about early church history and they acted out and depicted all these fantastic scenes? I wonder if members would be shocked by actually seeing these scenes acted out?
32:52 an apologist would say you’re misinterpreting golden plates on a table. Those were given by god for eating off of.
Has Joseph Smith’s handwriting ever been analyzed?
Love these episodes. I speak fast too. Is it a sign of high intelligence I wonder. Haha
I wonder if Joseph Smith's inspiration for the golden plates was the Shan Buddhist manuscript which looked like a solid gold brickbof plates. The item is actually a 2kg Shan Buddhist manuscript
from 1893 folding book of pressed and lacquered paper. Telling the story of Ariya Metteya, it offers
wisdom and hope for humanity's future.
Anagatavan arimitayya vatthu (Anagatavamsa)
manuscript in Shan and Pali, 1893. Or.14572.
Love you guys. Omg Mike saying “beat him off” was the best, then the “I’m done….” Hahaha. We love you Mike. You’re a legend with your work, no worries. Thanks for the laugh. Thanks MS for another great episode!
So, we have a codex form of a book written originally by Hebrews, in a form of Egyptian. So my question is; did Joseph Smith "translate" the pages by turning them from left to right or were those pages "translated" and turned right to left? And please tell me why a Hebrew would write a "form of Egyptian"? To the Hebrews, Egyptians were pagans and the very people enslaving them and destroying them. That alone doesn't seem plausible.
Very good questions!
There were no gold plates
When I first found this channel I could hardly look at you. You look identical to my Cuban uncle. He abused my cousin and I hated him for it. He died years ago but when I saw you and you look identical to him, it brought back all those feelings. And I know you're not my uncle. I don't hate you and I respect you. It's just so difficult because you look like his twin.
It would be funny if the main reason the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recently focused so much on everyone using their full, official name is because when "investigators" search for Mormon, Mormon Stories would be one of the first things that pops up 🙃
Leave it to Mike and Nemo to add Boyd K Packer and Jeffrey R Holland into early Mormon history with the “Joseph Smith beating off his two attackers” and “their musket balls went missing.” 😂
C’mon man, just because Joe Smith made it all up does NOT mean it isn’t troooooooo!
Plot twist: Turns out that in 1823, after beating off two "attackers" in the woods and getting home late, Joseph found himself having to awkwardly explain to Lucy what he had been doing out in the woods for so long instead of doing his chores...and a story about meeting a glowing angel wearing nothing but a robe, offering to show him some gold plates, was the best story that he could think of off the top of his head.
Google Harrison Burgess autobiography. My several great grandfather, as a young missionary, shared his experience with the gold plates. He remained faithful all his long life through many troubles.
Supposedly, my 4th great Grandfather, John Savage Reed, defended Joseph Smith in court at one time. John lived in New England, I think often in NY. John's son, Amos Reed, was appointed Secretary to the Territory of Utah by Abraham Lincoln. Amos was appointed acting Governor of Utah at some point. Would you know of any books about Joseph Smith that I could possibly find out proof of this? I wrote to The Mormon Church several years ago and they were unable to help me. I have no idea if either John Savage or Amos were Mormon. No one else in the family ever were Mormon.
You could reach out to Dan Vogel or read his Joseph Smith biographies.
@@bodytrainer1crane730 Thank you!!
When do we get to see the seer stone in action. What do we know about it and why don’t the big wigs continue to look into a hat with a rock and give direction to us from God just like Joe did. They have the rock, why doesn’t God continue to speak to them through the rock?
Why does Julia try to say "Joseph Smith's papers" as one syllable? It sounds like "jsmiprz". 😆
Slow down girl.
1:02:40 This is why he felt no need to hide them & left them in the open on the kitchen table in the open in the way all the time? lol
Hey you now that you have left the Church of Jesus Christ, are you attending any church or following any religion?
And you, who also left the church, do you follow any religion or church? What is your faith now?
1:32:30 the FAKE Kinderhook plates were this way, black stain in the engravings.
I believe the LDS are good people, as a whole. I also know firsthand a fact that the Book of Mormon was not accurate. Horses were brought to America by the Spanish. The book references horses during the time of Christ. It doesn’t compute. ALSO, the Elizabethan English that the original book was written in, was written by the king James scholars as that was the common English of the times. It was never written in original Elizabethan English. It was written in the Greek and Arabic.
***(NEMO 4 PROPHET)*** He can translate the SEALED (2/3) & fix all the current problems via divine scripture!
I was a witness to them.
😂
Well, like all religious stories, it's all heresay. Pics or it didn't happen. If God wanted me to believe it, he could have conjured up a nice Nikon
DSLR for Joe, instructions via rock-in-hat.
I would like to know where you stand personally on mormonism. I also prefer shorter videos and would watch more often.
It's a lie. And the reason some are so long, is because it takes that long to really understand the story of a person who has been entangled with Mormonism. It's a long story, and all the parts are important to tell it right. So it takes time. But I used to feel like you. So I understand. But they are amazing if you watch them. 🤗
If by “you” you mean John, his stance is that he loved being in Mormonism, but was excommunicated For having his Mormon stories podcast, talking about the history of the book of Mormon, the 19th century origins of the book of Mormon, the abuses in the history and ongoing abuses.
@@SilentThundersnow thanks.
@@danielclingen34 thank you.
It's definitely not about religion! It's having a personal relationship with God! I'm confused about this chanel do you share the gospel with people ?
The REAL Gospel was already shared long before JS came along and made up his.
Which gospel do you mean? Mormonism?
@@SilentThundersnow Yep, when Mormons say “the gospel” they are not referring to the canonical Gospels, as they believe that Joe Smith’s fabrication replaced them.
The real gospel from the real Jesus! Ephesians 2 8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift from God 9 not of works least anyone should boast.
The mormons and on to this by saying after all you can do which contradicts the Bible!! Which the Bible warns of that too! Paraphraseing do not add or take away from the Bible Deuteronomy 4:2
Which the mormons do all the time, and another last vs that mormons should pay attention to is galatians 1 : 6-12 that tells us about even though it may be an angel of light if they're telling a different gospel let them be accursed. Kinda a shorted vs. So all these missionaries will be held accountable for preaching the wrong gospel and it won't go well for them!!
I thank God for getting me out of that cult!!!! Praise Yah!!! ✝️🙌🙏
"It's definitely not about religion!" Do you do this everywhere? Walk into a class on mechanical engineering: "It's definitely not about mechanical engineering!" Walk into an archaeological seminar presenting newly discovered information on the Caryatides: "It's definitely not about the Caryatides!" "It's having a personal relationship with God!" Which sky daddy would that be? Odin? Zeus? Mithra? Quetzalcoatl? The God of Deuteronomy? How "personal" can a relationship be when the other party is invisible, odorless, inaudible and has a hypothetical voice in your mind that can't be distinguished from...your own mind?
So basically what you're saying is that there is no God and that Jesus Christ is not our Redeemer ! Because Jesus himself did say that His Gospel and all that the Father wishes to give us is not for the weak of faith and unbelievers. Christ Himself said that we must be willing to give everything in order to follow Him. Prime example is the Rich Young Man ! If we are not happy because we feel our religion ( Christ) asks too much of us and this makes us unhappy...then we don't truly know God or Christ we truly don't understand our true nature...we truly don't believe we are a Child of God! We can't serve two Gods...
Uh, there already was a Gospel, and it's the only one that normal Christians recognize. It was there long before ol' Joe came along with his con game and scriptural fabrications. If you want to talk about the rich young man, maybe you'd also like to talk about the new investigation of the LD$ church by the Securities Exchange Commission.
Why are you watching this video?
@@Borktholemview Mormons are in such a bubble that they view posts such as that as a “mic drop” 🤣
@@conductorsearle Seems you didn't read my reply carefully and just went on a tangent about Joe and SEC ? My main point was that Jesus Christ himself taught that living the gospel , being a true Disciple of Christ required at times great sacrifice...yes at times it may even require death-:it has nothing to do with whether you are LDS,Baptist, Methodist, Catholic...etc If sacrificing and carrying your cross makes you unhappy...then you don't really know God or Christ... you're just like one of the foolish 5 virgins!!! Brother Dehlin teaches the opposite and seems to think because he has a Dr degree in Psychology...he knows better than God !? I met Bro Dehlin on the mission...I have reached out requesting an interview on his podcast ( I being the interviewer ) ...for some reason he seems to shy away and not reply??
@@2ba-lamanite351 Explain to me the “great sacrifice” of forcing people to accept a multi-million dollar monstrosity with money they’ve fleeced members for. The SEC is quite germane to the discussion, as these buildings are built with tithing funds. Oh wait, do you believe there will be a “revelation” that will make the contractors work for free? I’m not on a “tangent”. I’m just tired of LDS cultists trying to mask ramming their culture down everyone else’s throat as doing God’s work. Temples are not for all people. The LDS church is building them as a “flex” and to give the false impression that they are growing, when the only growth they are seeing is in Africa and South America. Comparing building a multi-million dollar Disney castle with other people’s money to the sacrifice of Christ is laughable, but I know you’re just going to play the persecution game.