He provides many interesting concepts that the comic never really explores. It makes a small different for street level to cosmic level. What of someone was to kill/murder someone against someone like Thanos getting the stones
The parallels to the MCU vs. Captain Marvel situation are fascinating. And she's in a relationship with Warmachine there? Funny... remember Brie Larson touching Don Cheadle's arm in that interview. His answer: "We talked about that."
The worst part about this story is, Captain Marvel's entire premise is completely contradictory: If she can stop the predictions from occuring, then *they cannot be accurate*.
Not to mention literally fucking ANYTHING can happen in the marvel universe! By the time this happens they lived through several lifetimes of shit & her side wants to try to be preventative, absurdity at its finest.
@@galarstar052 Could be, but it isn't. If a prediction can't account for the effect making the prediction causes, then there is at least some uncertainty. That makes him a valuable source of intelligence, yes, and certainly cause to act, but Danvers especially should be cautious about predictions that can be changed.
@@watchm4ker That is actually why I despise Civil War II so much... I'm a fan of Carol Danvers, have been way back when she still went by "Ms. Marvel"... which is why I know she would NEVER take the position of arresting people like this, it just doesn't makes any god damn sense when you consider both the actions she has taken and the things she's gone through Literally there are so many other characters; Namor, Reed Richards, maybe even Strange, who I could buy taking the position of arresting people based on future visions, but not freaking Carol Danvers, they only put her there because she was popular at the time due to the film announcement, not because it actually made sense to her character
Dude was I saying why it sucked from the start: bad out of character writing, a terrible plot solely driven by a plot device character created just for the event, and a conflict that made no sense. Tony flat stated why Ulysses's visions couldn't be perfect if they could be averted and Carol literally had no comeback for that, other than I might be able save someone who would have otherwise died so its worth it ignoring the obvious implication of Tony's point: you could also get people get people killed who would have lived something which had already happened at that point.
I kind of think the addition of Ulysses into the basic story was a problem. By which I mean, what if it was *Carol* who received these visions? That'd explain some of her conviction to believe in them, in a "You can't know, you weren't THERE!" kind of way. Instead we get this mystery kid with vague characterization who gets beamed off earth in the end as a clumsy ending to the ongoing crisis.
100x this. The first CIVIL WAR had a great premise, and then became a series of hamfisted character assassinations. It was this series that turned me away from being a long-standing regular Marvel reader. Curiosity led me to give CIVIL WAR 2 a shot, and I found that Marvel had learned shit-all from the first one, and once again decided to take a hero and make them an unlikable fascist, but worse. Dumb. Dumb. DUMB.
corvus1970 Civil war one was much better at the time. It was written pretty close after 911. At the patriotism was over shadowing a lot nunuance. I think it says more to how people viewed bush for a time
@Spider-Man Skipping the movie for this reason seems pretty silly to me. The Carol in the movie didn't do any of those things, and it's honestly a decent hero flick. Maybe give it a try!
There's also the fact that killing the hulk was just to keep him out of the actual physical confrontation and to keep him from smashing both sides. He's taken way worse damage even as Banner, and always just came back to life as a supremely pissed off Hulk. And yes, I know that they were specialized arrows made by Bruce to kill him but... he hasn't been able to do it before and lord knows he's tried.
I just want to point out that 1984 doesn't explore the idea of pre-crime as an actual thing but rather a rhetorical trap. It is basically impossible for any citizen to not be guilty of thoughtcrime. Those citizens know they're guilty and that guilt stops them from speaking out at the mistreatment of other citizens. You're not going to speak out and question their sham trial (if they even had a trial) if it means inviting the government into your life and bringing suspicion onto you when you are in fact guilty of something. There is no way to demonstrate thoughtcrime but no evidence is needes since nobody questions the government for evidence and thus thoughtcrime, rather than being some sort of demonstrable thing, becomes an excuse to execute citizens on an whim. Everybody looking out for their own skin alongside the education system being so shattered that most young folks - those most capable of revolting - are incapable of recognizing that thoughtcrime is a sham is how the system of oppression perpetuates itself, forever. Minority Report is an exploration of the idea of thoughtcrime as an actual science fiction concept rather than the rhetorical trap laid by an oppressive regime that it was in 1984. Minority Report definitely plays a much larger role in shaping how we think of precognition while 1984 is really just about bog standard oppression tactics that were actually even being executed at the time by technological backwaters.
Its honestly terrifying how effective it is as a tool to make people turn against each other. Its an incredibly well oiled machine that produces paranoia and suspicion at a ridicolous rate.
Maybe that is just how Orwell sees thoughtcrime, a convenient political fiction masquerading as a sci-fi concept. It should be said that thoughtcrime isn't exactly a concept absent from most legal codes, although usually it's just called criminal intent.
@@pentelegomenon1175 its not really the same thing. Criminal intent are the motivations behind a crime thats already been commited. Someone who commited a crime by accident is not morally the same as someone who commited a crime willingly and maliciously. Its to establish the criminals character as a moral agent and thus determine a more fitting sentence. Thought crime, in the context of wrongthink, is merely having thoughts that are not in line with the ones seemed acceptable by the state. They are by their very nature imposible to prove or disproof and merely serve to let you know(and those around you) that even your thoughts belong to big brother. You cant escape, even in your thoughts. Its very much intended to create an aura of paranoia and mistrust for everyone and even your very thoughts. You never know when someone might accuse you of wrongthink, you only know that youre screwed once they do. And by that same token you dont even know when you might actually commit thought crime, willingly or not.
A quote about children in 1984 "Nearly all children nowadays were horrible. What was worst of all was that by means of such organizations as the Spies they were systematically turned into ungovernable little savages, and yet this produced in them no tendency whatever to rebel against the discipline of the Party. On the contrary, they adored the Party and everything connected with it… All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals. It was almost normal for people over thirty to be frightened of their own children."
Randolph Defreese Yeah, but Carol hasn’t really been a good character since she’s been Captain Marvel imo. She was at her best, at least to me, back as Ms. Marvel in the New Avengers era
I thought that what made her look bad was the face job, the hair cut, the boob reduction surgery, and the ass and legs reduction surgery? Ohh the other type of look bad.
After Brie Larson, CM cannot be made to look any worse. Every time I see an image of CM, I'll always think of the, "I'm a noble, warrior, alien, hero princess" said with Brie's snarky irritating voice. They either need to make her into a villain or kill the character off in an embarrassingly spectacular fashion. Like how they killed Nightwing off in the Injustice comic: by tripping on his own baton while standing up in dead level, falling, and breaking his neck. Yeah, that kinda stoopid.
As soon as I saw Thanos brandishing a gun in one of the first issues, I knew this story was going in the wrong direction. Bendis will be Bendis and he'll change characters and stories in order to suit his stories and ideas. The Captain America comic and the final tie in, the Oath actually makes Civil War 2 better when you think something else is looming in the background of this story. This CW2 actually damaged Captain Marvel's character to a lot of people. Before that she was just blah for a long time, just coasting until her movie appearance.
The image of Miles with dead Cap has a problem. Yes, Miles is holding him in a weird way, but Cap is clearly stabbed from behind with a piece of debris. It could have been an accident for all anyone knew. There's no image if Miles actually stabbing Cap, so it comes entirely down to interpretation. There is one clue that Hydra-Cap isn't the "real" Cap. "Real" Cap would have been a lot more forceful than just telling Miles to go home. He'd be at the forefront against Carol, and it would have been much more in character than his actions in Civil War I.
Some of the writers admit that the only real reason for this book was to tie in to the Civil War movie, so maybe this supposed to be some kind of poorly executed recreation of Spidey holding Cap's shield.
Can we address how again, that stupid twist of Cap being a traitor all along, goes against everything they just set up about him, and it's all for the sake of being "Unexpected"?
I know this is old, but another problem with that event was also inconsistencies between titles. In her own book, Carol was shown to doubt the visions and take a lot of time and resources to understand and verify the visions before acting. So basically she agreed with Tony. But they were still fighting. The whole event was just weird and badly executed.
They could've made Ulysses the main villain like he can somewhat manipulating future events cause maybe he had a hatred for heroes when he lost his families or he could've be some small-time crook who gain superhuman ability and being using his newfound ability of messing with everyone in the superhero community, something.
@@billymccrary2246That would have been a great plot twist, but it would have required Carol having to come to terms with how she made a huge, costly mistake and Marvel can't have even a slight stain on her character.
Great analysis, man. It's nice to know there are some places out there to get honest and forthright reviews. It's frustrating to read websites where the editors are terrified they might lose access to the creators if they permit objective reviews.
Captain Marvel has a cognitive "shadow" a mile long and therefore won't accept any counter arguments. All great character arcs with central protagonists should break down the outer "persona" and confront the shadow flaws in that character. No change is just boring.
It's also odd that no one came up with a middle ground. It was use Ulysses or don't. What about using the visions as an investigative tool? You don't immediately arrest people, but get to the locations ahead of time and see if anything is going on. Background check the "perpetrators". Ask Miles to hold off being Spider-Man for a while.
Hell no change can still be interesting even if they resolve to double down on their sins, and ignore them, because the results are all that matters. However the character needs to acknowledge it. To knowingly decide to stain one’s self with evil to destroy evil as it where. Is incredibly interesting.
It's in the first few sentences that I find one of the things that most bother me about these mega-events: In Civil War, Tony Stark was the by-the-book supporter of registration and Captain America was the rebel. Now we cut to Civil War II and Tony Stark is the rebel and Captain Marvel is the by-the-book supporter of whatever. It's as if they just randomly select characters to make up the sides of the issue and force-fit them into those roles for the duration. That's in addition to what you point out, that the random voices bring up certain compelling issues, but never deal with them or develop them. What I'd like to see is a character confront a particular conundrum, work out a way of dealing with it that works for them (and is in concert with their character as we've seen it develop over the years) and grow a bit in the process.
It could be that Tony learnt from the previous experience and doesn't want to punish people who haven't done anything wrong yet (like what was an unintended consequence of the hero registration). Tony repeating the same arc in this story would be pointless. If Tony and Steve Rogers swapped positions it would be terrible but having another new character enter the dynamic works.
@@jayzonedc6474 the issue however is that Tony never addresses that. Any of it. He doesn't say "Hey, Carol I've been where you are. I know how tempting it can be to want to solve the worlds problems in a quick and clean way..." It just never comes up. Which is crazy to me in what is essentially a sequel series.
@@jayzonedc6474 The problem is that Tony in Civil War is pretty much opposite to how he was back in Armor Wars, a previous time he and Cap were on opposite sides. Tony had no problem breaking into The Vault and disabling the Guardsmen armor (the technology of which WASN'T stolen, but that he sold) and allowing a mass break out.
Uh, that's what used to happen in monthly title comic books. They didn't need a 100 gazillion issue multi-arc crossover event for character development and problem-solving. That's why most older Marvel and DC character's series numbers are in the hundreds of issues, between 300-700 issue runs. That's why these characters are so beloved. The focus was on them in the spotlight of their own book, not trying to pick your favorite hero out in a splash page with a jeweler's magnifying lens. They didn't learn the lesson in a crossover study group. They graduated thru the school of hard knocks and you were there along for the ride. These guys make cookie cutter comics like Jason Bourne novels, but once you've read one, you've read them all. I would even settle for going back to the days when the crossover events only happened in the annuals, which were only published in the summer months when school was out. That way the crossovers didn't interfere with the flow of the monthly titles. It was left up to each creative team when or if any of the crossover details spilled over into the monthly title, like a costume change, new power/weapon, team member's injury/death, team addition, etc. That kept the monthly books free of interruptions & you had something to look forward to every summer besides break.
At least we got that awesome Dr Doom story aka Infamous Iron Man. Until, marvel idiotically canceled it for low sales; even though, it sold consistently at 20,000.
Especially, when Squirrel Girl, America, Captain Marvel, and Unbeatable Wasp sold less than 15,000; they were canceled after Infamous Iron Man for no reason.
That was so they could do Riri Williams as Iron Man/Ironheart so it could consistently sell between 8K-10K/month. I saw an old interview with Stan Lee talking about the heyday of Marvel in the 60's and early 70's. He said they put a creative team on a 3-month notice once sales hit 150K a month and cancelled anything that wasn't selling at least 100K per month. My, how the mighty Marvel has fallen. They don't have a single book that sells over 60K a month, and that's with making comic shops buy mandatory amounts of each title every month. That's with Marvel counting only what is sold to the comic shops as actual "sales." They don't keep track of, and will not allow comic shops to post what YOU the customer actually buy. It would be too damaging to the brand, to the stocks, and embarrassing all around. Unsold comics are not returnable. If Marvel puts out a crap series that no one buys, the comic shop takes the hit. Not many outside of the business know how dirty Marvel actually is to the local comic shops. They could ship an entire month's run blank on the inside & their sales numbers would not suffer. The comic shops bear all the financial risk while Marvel makes most of the profit. The shops only make cents to the dollar. They have to sell a LOT of comics just to break even. That's why you see comics shops selling back issues, DVD's, novels, action figures, posters, games, trading cards, holding events & card tournaments, selling refreshments & snacks. Comics get people thru the door, but they don't pay the bills. Even with having the shops over a barrel, Marvel still sees the shops as a financial liability. That's the real reason they keep trying to go digital. It ain't environmental because of the paper or because it's the digital age - it's because they're greedy SOB's and they want every single cent paid for the price of a comic. Remember that while you're holding on to a series that sucks over sentimental reasons or habit, all the while keep collecting it every month hoping it will get better, or something exciting will happen, or they'll change creative teams. Why are you loyal to a brand that's only loyal to the $$$? All you are or will ever be is a paycheck to them.
This reminds my of one part of Linkara's look at the first Civil War: "Both sides are wrong and I hate them." Instead they just made it, "One side is wrong, and I hate it."
Not only that in the Doctor Strange book magic has been stripped nearly clean from existence and in the beginning of Civil War 2 you have all the magic users blowing off giant spells. Not to mention that Luke and Danny decided to steer clear of fighting their friends again after the first civil war but there you see them in civil war 2
lettersndnumbers what’s weird about civil war 2 with Danny and luke is that Danny was in jail during the event and had a whole break out arc they shouldn’t even be in the main book
Because comic books are a hobby that is not very popular. People only follow the movies and because of that they feel intimidated due to the years of of information and potential spoilers for upcoming movies. Video games, movies and tv series are much more popular themes that more people visit on the internet. Overall, I would say that this guy is pretty big for for your average comic book channel who usually don't last long.
@@scottsanders1485 Comics Explained literally explains comic book stories for the average person who doesn’t read comics and he also gives his opinion. He isn’t that far off from Comic tropes here. If you want to shit on him, be my guest. But pick reasons that make sense.
You misinterpreted Kurosawa's quote completely. By his definition, Captain Marvel is the villain, because she is locked and petrified into being what she is. She won't accept that Ulysses visions are wrong. That's villainous.
Maybe. Couldn't you just as easily argue that Tony is locked into an "old" way of fighting crime, post hoc, and it's Carol who has accepted change into her life by trying out this "new" way of fighting crime: before-the-fact? I mean, we're trying to apply a really elegant idea, as proposed by a genious filmmaker, to a story that's just so ham-fisted and ill-conceived that I'm not sure it's gonna fit nicely no matter what. But that's, I think, the direction Chris was coming at it from, anyway.
@@Jesse__H I think it moreso it shows how poorly written the story is because we really have two immutable characters as villains trying to act as protagonist to each other.
@@thealien2437 Carol is definitely the antagonist here. The antagonist's defining role is to be the main driver of the plot; essentially, to cause the problems that the protagonists then have to address. That is exactly what Carol does by misusing Ulysses's powers.
I'd like to say thank you for this review. You don't SCREAM and blame the comic creators for "SJW properganda" and talk about how Captain Marvel "looks like a maaaaan!!" or attack readers, blaming them. If you don't like the book or writing, you act professionally. Personally, I don't like how Marvel has been forcing Carol Danvers down fans throats as "The best HERO EVER! The most powerful, the smartest, THE BEST!" in the last couple years. This action has had made many fans bored with this, and irriated. Many readers want Marvel to slow down, some want Danvers to go away, but no matter how you put it, readers are tired. Marvel has been trying to make her more realatable like having her go on dates and having a tough time, going to therapy, having girls night's, but it's not working. Her book is bombing, and it looks like Marvel refuses to take no as an answer(many writers have picked fights with fans on social media.....and aren't mature about it. I.e. calling people who disagree "Cis white bullys", "Sexist", etc. Making things worse.). By this, I and many fans are VERY skeptical about "Avengers 4". We're scared that Carol will swoop in, and make all the heroes we know and love look stupid, or useless or worse.
RedDragonM1 maybe in preparation for the movie, I wonder? Either way that sucks, and I’m all for diversity in comics- they’ve often been at the forefront in that regard (at least in the past). Picking fights with readers just seems immature...
I think she's been written all over the place for most of her existence, and there are tons of concerns about that and the general fatigue some readers have with her. We can address all that AND acknowledge that there's also a hefty dose of general sexism when it comes to the character. Like damn, if she does swoop in and save the day, that's not really any more contrived than what they've been doing with Iron Man the last decade. Which is also bad storytelling and tiring, but people get way more visceral when a female character does the exact same thing.
Nocturne22 Iron Man started the MCEU 15 years ago. He's put in his work, as most other character have. She's had one movie, and it was a couple months ago. It's not the same, and it has nothing to do with what's between her legs. Guess what? Woman can be criticized without it having to do with their gender. Yup... mind blown right?
I think Tony used Hulk as an example specifically because of the events of Planet Hulk and World War Hulk. He KNOWS what happens when you try to preempt these things.
13:34 I Still think that Tony bringing up the Hulk like is he basicly saying "Oh yeah, remember how well that thing you are doing went last time we tried It"
I've been saying this forever, Bendis is overrated. One of his biggest flaws is writing himself into a corner then jettisoning a characters personality to get himself out of it. Your Hawkeye example perfectly illustrates this. Readers are usually too taken with the empty Mamet-esque banter he writes to notice. As for Civil War II, I'll admit I didn't read it, but if the premise is a person who can tell the future being exploited by law enforcement, um why didn't anyone think of that when Destiny was on Freedom Force, a federal law enforcement agency? Oh and I stumbled across your channel and am happy I did. This was a fair, well thought out and detailed analysis. Good stuff!
I can't believe I'm defending Nickelback but at least they have some diamonds in the turds. Captain Marvel is just a vast lake of diarrhea that contaminates everything it's in contact with.
Wouldn't have been better to have seen rhodey trying to mediate the conflict. Trying to balance his old friendship with tony and relationship with cpt. Marvel. Then you would actually have a great conflict and emotional recoil when we see war machine die, thus breaking out this new conflict.
Logan Jericho Well, there is that. But it wasn't the reason this event sucked as hard as it does. It's part of it. But the reasons he lists are more major.
How is it "PC/SJW" when, as ComicTropes explains in a video, the book avoids actually talking about any social issues and only uses them as an excuse to have heroes fight each other? if anything, people had a theory Bendis is doing this book to sabotage Captain Marvel's push because he was banned from having Guardians save Earth from alien invasions to not make her look bad (which is not confirmed).
I think it's more that the civil war 2 book is linked to events preceding and succeeding it which definitely stray into those territories. It's not that there's PC themes there (comics have always leaned liberal for the most part) it's that there's such a heavy handed one-note method to hammering in the message the past few years that even many of us liberals are tired of it because it's impacting the quality of the characters and the story in service of the idealized themes. Things like characters lacking in flaws is very common, which goes against what Marvel has always been.
Logan Jericho yes! There's so much wrong with Marvel that have nothing to do with "PC" or whatever. The comics industry as a whole, mainly the big two, have always been incompetent
You know, I am missing an argument here (and elsewhere). Stopping a catastrophic event does not guarantee a better outcome, something that should be clear from them trying to stop Thanos. Let's say they actually kill Thanos. Someone could find his homebase and use the technology in worse ways he has. It was neverhis goal, but Thanos has an arsenal that could destroy earth. His robot armada has been shown bombarding a planet while in Infinity Crusade he had a Dreadnought that could shoot a hole halway into a planet. If they come out of FTL in fireing range, and they are capable to do that, no hero on earth could stop that. And that's just one possible outcome of many from this scenario. I mean, he had the cloning facility to create a clone that was a mixture of him and Galactus. Or consider this. Let's say they catch a Hydra spy. He is sent to prison and dies. Let's say his son grows up without a father and blames the heroes for it. And we have a villain that has no complex goals, he just wants to kill superheroes. That could be catastrophic on it's own, but let him be manipulated, trained and equipped by Hydra. Destiny actually saw her own death and knew it was neccessary to beat the Shadow King in the end. All that stuff and they don't adress it?
That reasoning is too complex for the SJW mindset of outcome equality. Under equality of outcomes, Thanos is bad. Thanos living is bad. All outcomes deriving from Thanos living will be bad at some point. If Thanos is killed, that's good. Then all outcomes from that point moving forward will be good. You're throwing too many what if's around in an attempt to derail all the good outcomes everyone will have when Thanos dies. Bad human - Reee! lol.
Good explanation. I agreed that the story had no beginning and no ending. Just a middle and a name to try to cash in on a few extra bucks with the release of Captain America: Civil War
The concept itself was good given the times. Execution however was oh lord something else even if we ignore the pingpong ball to follow all related issues.
Lightskin Superman woah, this guy doesn’t like the big fun marvel movie. Let us now before him, for he has an unpopular opinion and thus is obviously smarter than everyone
And i thought that the original civil war did Iron Man bad. After CW 2 you wonder what marvel is hoping for with captain marvel, who are the readers that like this? It doesn't look like they're working on a redemption arc either, if they intend for her to replace captain america as the primary 'pro government' hero, they're doing a terrible job of that too. At this point the only conclusion that seems reasonable is either marvel wants us to hate her which doesn't make sense because they've been promoting her in everything, or that the writers at this point are incompetent beyond belief.
Ajmal Sohail I like to think of it as a choose your own adventure story. See, these are really the only possible options. Both are terrible. So choose wichever one you want. A reality where protagonists are actively disliked or a reality where incompetence runs the office at Marvel Comics.
I’m so sad that such a talented artist had to draw such a bad story! The comic itself looks absolutely beautiful. I really like the simplistic style that it’s drawn in. Anybody know any GOOD comics this artist worked on? I really wanna see more of this style!
A very good analysis. I mostly avoided Civil War to because everything I heard indicated that i'd dislike it. The part I did read was the Power man and Iron Fist tie in, in which people (Mostly former street level Villains and their families) were being arrested for crimes they didn't do or never happened due to a Genius super villain hacking government databases. Leading to Luke Cage and Captain Marvel clashing over a Jail break in which Luke planned on busting his best friend/Super Hero team mate Danny Rand out of jail as well as maybe a few other innocent people. Captain Marvel's involvement caused a much larger prison break in which a number of Super villains got out. To me the point of this, in terms of Civil War II at least, was very much a Minority Report type thing. Since even if the Visions were 100% true they could never be 100% accurate because they were very much "Visions" as Ulysses was quite literally SEEING the future and not only could he not see everything but as a random civilian he lacked a lot of context for his vision. The problem was that Captain Marvel and her camp weren't really trying to understand the visions but just taking them as 100% exactly what would happen.
It's fascinating to hear your analysis. I've heard that Civil War II has not been doing well in sales but not the reason. Can you do a video analysing Civil War I? And maybe a contrasting video on why Rebirth has so much hype, and is it justified?
I'll say it once again this story line is Minority Report, the Marvel way! Seriously, the plot follows Minority Report right down to the government keeping a future seeing psychic in a hidden facility!
Well, what do you expect? With everyone having a "controversy" every five seconds, and getting sued over the stupidest shit. It'd be no wonder many companies have gone the routes that they've taken things. Marvel just wants to make sure that it's "diverse" enough to keep people happy, even though the hard core fans that have been with them for years get alienated. Hell I'm still pissed off to beat all hell that they killed Bruce Banner off just to replace him with some no-name Asian guy that had no real background to the Hulk other then a couple of throw-away story lines in World War Hulk. Much like what they did with Iron Man just now by making him a teenage Fe-male. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good update to characters, or for them adding in characters that are more "diverse", but they need to do it right, don't just slap a pink tag on it, and expect people to just accept it. That's just bad, and very lazy story telling.
Haven't read it, but based on your analysis, this comic sounds like it has a lot in common with Taxi Driver, A Clockwork Orange and American Psycho. A demented person comes dangerously close to self-awareness, but in the end their brutality is vindicated. They are rewarded, and get to continue living their lives.
Comic troops and comicstorian are my go to RUclips channels when it comes to comics related matters. Comic troops is best at providing deep analysis, a profound comprehension and history of many comics including independent and international publishers. Good on you mate!
Because all but one of them were good enough to stick around. If memory serves aren't the Inhumans being killed off and having their push taken away from them?
I really enjoy the Captain America tie ins to this event, It explains how Hydra Steve was lurking in the shadows and attempting to pull strings to pull apart the heroes
I think it might have made some sense if the roles were reverse where Iron Man thinks that they could prevent the future with the Inhuman's power and Captain Marvel being the one trying to prove him incorrect. And Iron Man having feeling guilty on the lost of his best friend because of what his actions lead to which would lead him in trying to fix his mistake by improving and experiment on the Inhuman's future sights. By doing so would lead to questioning morality and how you can deal with future knowledge. From what I learned from this, Iron Man should have been the Protagonist and not the Antagonist. OMG they are trying to repeat Civil War I by making Iron Man the enemy. I know you said they were trying to Bank in the movie when it was going to be out but It's kind of forced.
So, to simplify, what you're saying is that if the roles were reversed you can clearly see how Tony would confront the problem, adapt, & change. However, whatever side of this conflict Carol is on, she would be this blunt instrument incapable of evaluating her perspective and incapable of change. Yep - got it.
I always felt that CW2 should have ended with figuring out that the precog was projecting doomsday scenarios when his life was in imminent danger. And Tony sacrificing himself to stop the precog and Carol realizing she was wrong but the world hailing her as a hero.
"Can't have Tony being the bad guy AGAIN, he's popular now." And that's as much of a reason as they could muster for making the guy who cloned Thor into the hero, lol. Also Carol kinda had a mini panic attack/breakdown when she was temporarily given cosmic awareness in the Ultimates. She legit freaked out at how fragile existence was.
The precognate... is shy about asking out a girl. He has the one power that would allow that to be impossible for him, whether he's naturally shy or not, because he knows whether he will have a positive reaction before saying anything. That right there is better proof than anything that he can't truly know the future.
Really Cool and thoughtful Analysis. I would love to see more of this kind of videos for non-superhero comics/series (I really enjoyed your Love & Rockets Tropes video, maybe a similar analysis/video for Hoppers & Palomar stories? Cerebus?) Congrats and Keep up the Great Work! Cheers! i.
It coul be an interesting comic: Ulisses kills Marvel Universe. Ulisses (with a help of some heavy hitter eg. Cpt. Marvel) stops all major events by predicting them and stopping before they happen. Eg. hunting Skrulls before their Secret Invasion, stopping the gamma bomb test or preventing Spider-man from taking the black suit...
I get the feeling civil war 2 was mostly used to put away older characters and Spotlight new marvel characters like totally awesome hulk, ironheart etc. if that was the case I wish after rebooting the Marvel universe that they would have done a hard reboot for these new generation of characters since its "all new, all different marvel now"
The thing is, its an idiotic way to replace the characters. There is a simple concept that lets you replace current heroes with new ones for a large number of them, its age. Tony moves to doing more command center esque work and iron heart takes over the day to day iron man stuff. That would work for any of the human' heroes. I've always been open to new characters replacing old ones. But doing it in this straight up idiotic way doesn't do the new heroes any favors.
This came up in my suggested and this was the first video that I ever got suggested. It was almost 5 years ago and Chris has just always been funny and informative. Thanks for all the content!
This story was my first real introduction to Carol Danvers. I knew she was Captain Marvel and i knew some of her powers but that was about it. After reading it i hated her and i still haven't read any comics about her.
@@TevyaSmolka The best tie-in for Civil War II, if you ask me, was Captain America: Steve Rogers, because of how great it was to see HYDRA!Cap play everyone like fools...and when the most likable character in Civil War II is a corrupted version of Steve Rogers, then that's a sign that Marvel fucked up.
i can understand why you thought that tie-in was the best within this civil war II garbage but like you said the most likable character is basically hydra/cap who was also trying and basically succeeding taking down the heroes like fly's which is even more messed up the more you think about it like that, also i agree Marvel did fucked up with that big time.
@@smashmaster521 I don't know how a 2-1/2 year old video popped up in my YT que, but I guess my comments have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight re: this. As far as Cap goes, he's a damaged goods character. No matter the amount of retconning, they ain't never gonna wash the Hydra & antifa stank off of him. Factor in that they cucked him by retconning America Fierra doing the Hitler punch-out way back when. Also factor in that Chris Evans was a closet SJW, but let it all cut loose on the fans during the publicity tour and during interviews once AV 3 & 4 were already shot. Add on that Mark Waid doxxed fans, went off on fans on Twitter/Instagram, verbally attacked & embarrassed fans at conventions, and had the ego to write himself into the comic as a future descendant of Cap who becomes a future version of Cap. In my personal view, Cap is washed up & finished as a character. They could pull Fabian Nicieza out of retirement as writer and have Jim Lee handling the pencils/ink and I'd never look twice at it. At this point, how many original Marvel birth-era characters does Marvel have left to throw under the bus for simple shock value? We're gonna p*ss away 30, 40, 50 years of character development for this shock reveal on a storyline I cooked up last night while buzzed at the bar. Yep! Run with it. Yeah, we'll double sales for 1 issue, then drop from 50K a month to 15K, but that's OK. He's an old character with not a lotta miles left. Marvel never learns. Marvel royally screwed Spider-Man fans back in the 90's with the Clone Saga. Prior to that, they were selling six S-M titles a month at 300K per book, per month. That didn't include S-M 2099. So, close to 1 mil S-M books per month in total. At those numbers, why throw a monkey wrench? Oh, but they couldn't resist the temptation. So, yeah - the Spider-Man/Peter Parker you've been reading and collecting for the last 22 years? Well, he's a fake, a clone. Here's the real Peter Parker, he's just been wandering the streets of NY waiting for the chance to take his life back. Long time fans felt betrayed and collectors thought there goes the value of all my old books. Well of course they backed off and fixed the mistake, but the damage was done. In the end they were left with 2 S-M titles, Amazing & Spectacular, selling at 75-100K per month. I read that issue while eating some lunch, went back to the comic store, and told the owner to cancel my pull list for all the Spider-books. I haven't even looked at a S-M book since. As a fan, you've not been burned until you've been Marvel burned. Not only will they burn you off a certain book or creative team, they'll burn you off a character for life. My burn list? Thor, Iron Man, Capt. America, the Avengers, War Machine, Spider-Man, and anything or anyone X-Men related. Wouldn't touch SJW Marvel with a 10 ft pole. So I have nothing left for Marvel except ill will. I've gotten immense enjoyment at the fact the Disney has been leasing Marvel characters out to IDW Comics. It seems that Marvel has no interest in making any comics aimed toward kids & young teens, but IDW will. See, there's Marvel running with scissors AND blinders on. How do you grow a customer base when you alienate your adult & young adult clients and don't even address a sizable demographic? If you get the kid in the store, you get at least one of the parents in there too. If they never develop a love for comics, they're not one day as an adult say, "I think I'll get into collecting comics as a hobby." Here's to IDW doing Marvel better than Marvel does. Their NY Headquarters' 25 year lease comes up for renewal in 2020. Right now they ain't selling enough comics to pay the bills. Disney ain't gonna prop them up for the next 25. I see 2 options: 1) Lose the NY base and pull Marvel into Disney Animation in CA. 2) Phase out Marvel Comics. Lease the characters out to established comics companies like IDW, while retaining the movie rights. Stress that if said companies don't perform better than Marvel, the character leases will be pulled. Bank on the fact that new blood and fresh perspectives will generate great stories that will turn into movie gold. If I were Quesada and CB Chugabrewski, I'd be quaking in my shoes 'bout now.
About Dan Harmon's story structure: it would be conceited of me to say that he's getting his own structure wrong, but I'm going there anyway. A better description of the "pay a heavy price" thru the end of the cycle would be: heroes succeed at getting what they wanted, but they realize that they have unleashed unintended consequences, and have to decide whether to give up their hard-won prizes to fix the harm they caused. Usually they do, and the return to status quo is more about, the hero returns with a different prize than expected, in the form of wisdom and a better way to live. EXAMPLE: the first-season "Community" where Jeff pretends to be Professor Chang's friend for better grades (Chang has been inordinately cranky and has been punishing the class with insane projects). Jeff gets the better grades, but he's doing nothing to help his friends in the class; so instead he resolves to fix the actual problem in Chang's life (his wife left him) and give up the better grades. Jeff doesn't return to the status quo with the prize he initially wanted, but he gets one that is perhaps more important: he is a better person, plus his friends respect him (plus, Chang stops punishing everyone in the class but Winger).
The upside of Civil War II was an expanding of 2099's heroes. I loved seeing Iron Fist 2099 as a bartender with ZERO attention drawn to him aside from literal metal hands.
Captain Marvel getting defeated by Iron man and getting sent to jail would've been a better ending. Then they just could've played it off that this Ulysses guy was interfering with her mentally causing her to get unstable.
Just say that Rhodey's death lead to a breakdown and she needs to deal with her grief and loss in a better way. She has a history of alcoholism, so this could almost have been a substitute for that addiction. Instead of drinking, she becomes a huge control freak. It's a way to push her to be a better hero.
My god, this guy is the weirdest man alive... and I LOVE it Recently discovered this channel and have been binging it. I will say this is a much older video but has a lot more consistent audio which is strange, but uhm bring back infotron
I guess he hasn't gotten to the level of Bill Jemas, former Editor in Chief of Marvel (The bad kind of editor) and is responsible for Marville (A "comedy" (Seltzer and Friedburg quality) comic then turned pseudo-philosophical spiel) against Peter David's Captain Marvel (Shazam now) and Ron Zimmerman's Ultimate Adventures (from what I hear is a pastiche to Batman).
Spider man reveals his identity, something he wouldn’t do, and it bites him in the ass. Cause now bad guys that want him and his family dead know who he is.
Civil War 2 turned into a character assassination of Captain Marvel. Even in the issues where we're supposed to relate to her, it felt like they went out of their way to make her unlikable. I gave up on it after the first issues (initially). I gave it a second chance due to a Comixology sale and it was the same mess I remembered. You can't really have a great story when you go out of your way to make your main character a jerk. :(
Your channel has got me wanting to get back into comics. Really enjoy these videos. I'm like below a noob when it comes to comics, but these videos are great.
Does anyone remember when Ms. Marvel was a likeable and upstanding character? Old games, cartoons like EMH and SHS, etc. made me admire her, and then she was retooled at some point under the mantle of Captain Marvel, and she has been an awful shadow of her former self ever since. Even the live-action film couldn't save her, it seemed to only further the dislike for her, it's a real shame...
I was excited for the storyline where she was going to take up the mantle; I thought they were going to go in the direction of giving her the nega-bands, and they went in a totally different direction....and have disliked her ever since. Marvel ruined her
Thank you. Something like this takes me a bit longer than a review of a single issue so I do not have the time to do them weekly right now. But I do have plans to create more.
The biggest issues I had with Civil war 2 where: 1) One side was Cleary in the wrong and was acting like tyrants in flashy costumes. 2)The heroes where either ones no one liked or care about or where forced to act out of their normal patterns just so bad plot happens. 3) The Wrong side won in the end and Captain Marvel just went on to terrorise the population in the name of safety. I must disagree with this idea most protagonists are actively pushing the plot or proactive. 9/10 times it seems the protagonist is reactionary while the antagonist is proactive. How many times in shows, films books or comics do the villains strike first and the heroes react. The heroes rarely are proactive unless a big plot point needs to happen, it is time to remove a main villain or the story is wrapping up and the heroes for example raid the main evil base and crush the mastermind for good. Even then a good chunk of finale's are started by the villain attacking the heroes home base or place of work or family which then leads to the grand finale. But I understood what you meant in the case of this train wreck comic series, In that Captain Marvel was the proactive one be it for the wrong reasons and being more of villain protagonist than a hero, as you know the two can be separate.
8:07 “The heroes are the ones that still changing and the villains are locked and petrified into what they are” Akira Kurosawa. While this does present a great summary for many kinds of hero/villain relationships, there are plenty of villains that are agents of change and who evolve over time, just as there are heroes that don’t change and who only serve to maintain the status quo. What else is Frodo Baggins doing besides trying to return the world to the sense of normalcy? He doesn’t want the Shire to be destroyed. He wants to protect the Hobbits from having to change. Additionally, while the protagonist does choose to answer the call to adventure, the antagonist often disrupts the idea of normalcy (an evil wizard slays the king and burns the hero’s home village, a psychotic killer goes around murdering innocent people). We usually have a frame of reference for how things used to be before the antagonist raised amuck. Inversely, of course, you can say that the villain is often doomed not so much because he’s evil, but because he holds strong convictions that don’t run parallel with the wrong person. Many protagonists are often unambitious. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule and broad, sweeping generalizations tend to overlook some alternatives.
TwoCentReview The Hobbits change dramatically throughout the Lord of the Rings. The Hobbits transformation is one of if not the biggest parts of that story. It is an absolute heroes journey. They are not trying to keep the shire from changing. They are trying to prevent the destruction of the world in which they and everything exist within. To compare that with ‘they don’t want the shire to change’ as their motivation for the heroes journey is so far off base I have no idea where you are coming from and quite sure we read different books.
Afaik Illimunati was waaaay before the first Civil War, we're shown that Iron Man really regrets his actions at the end of that and realizes he's becoming the authoritarian he originally became a hero to fight against, so imo this is just a reference to that and not a consistency issue
- How did we know about the celestial threat? - This is Ulisses. He can predict events like that. - We should use his powers to prevent troubles before they apear. [Ulisses whispers something to Captain Marvel.] BANG !!! [Captain Marvel have just killed Ulisses.] - I've just prevented a civil war among the heroes.
Yeah, Civil War II was a mess, but...there was a manipulator...who isn't mentioned or referred to in that way during the main book. Cap was, of course, at this point, a double agent for Hydra...and he intentionally sabotaged things, taking actions to manipulate Ulysses' visions. Cap's book isn't even listed as a tie in though. I love Marvel, warts and all, but man that's silly.
1:28 the first appearance of Infotron is such a historic moment in ComicTropes history! Lol the whole scene cracks me up, from the huge clunking footsteps to Infotron regurgitating the copy of Civil War. "I have been living in your basement for the last five months." "That was you? I thought that was the water heater." *brilliant, hilarious zoom out from the water heater & Infotron* 😂perfect comedy right there!
I like this, this is what youtube was about and should be about, a weirdo with a camera and no budget explaining things to other weirdos. myself included
I agree. This story was bullshit, especially the part about Hawkeye. I ended up really liking him despite not knowing about his history beforehand. Just shows the writers lack of competence and knowledge during this story.
Spit balling here, but what if we took time to built up Brodie and Carol a bit in the first couple issues, maybe even have a proposal dinner. Something to cement their seriousness. Ulysses comes around and his visions have a strong accuracy. Everything this far, smaller stuff to start, has come true. Ironman, being skeptical as Carol attempts to integrate this into profiling, goes on to prove that these visions are just probability. But so far there have only been successes and Carol is convinced that this is more mystical than what Tony can summarize. She then turns to War Machine for guidance, who pushes Carol in that direction. Saying he loves Tony, believes him even, but a chance at saving the day is better than none. Then we get the Thanos call. And everything plays out the same. Tony, striken with grief comes after Carol, saying "Was chance worth all this loss?!" We get nothing but silence from Carol as she flies off. Seeking Ulysses out and asking for another vision. We then see Captain America dead at Miles' hands. We have all the heroes screaming about what to do. Some siding with Tony now as we have physical evidence of the visions being probability based. Admist this chaos, we get a panel of Carol drifting into the darkness as the words fade out around her. The next panel is her approaching Spider-Man. She says: "I'm sorry about all this, kid." We see a look of hope on Miles' face before turning the page and seeing a determined Carol attempting to arrest Spider-Man. Tony gives his same defense, "You are turning on children!". But Carol turns to him and says: "You asked me, if all the loss we've had was worth it?" She turns to him, tears in her eyes, and says "It has to be worth something." And that's when our war begins.
I have never really been a fan of cosmic Marvel characters, so I don't know what is in or out of character for Captain Marvel, but I remember thinking that she wouldn't listen to anyone or change course in any way specifically because of the death of War Machine. She loved him. She got him killed. She couldn't live with that if it was all a mistake. She absolutely had to be right.
If only there was a character who likes to PUNISH criminals...
Instead of using Hawkeye
Dude they totally could've used the Punisher.. switching the characters doesn't change anything about the plot. 😂
If only
Batman...?
Bendis use forethought? Naw, gotta pump these f*ckers out!
@@friday6448 Batman is owned by DC.
Marvel makes it very hard to like Captain Marvel. Her argument just seems stupid and unreasonable.
Her argument was nothing more than "It depends." 😂
He provides many interesting concepts that the comic never really explores. It makes a small different for street level to cosmic level. What of someone was to kill/murder someone against someone like Thanos getting the stones
The parallels to the MCU vs. Captain Marvel situation are fascinating.
And she's in a relationship with Warmachine there? Funny... remember Brie Larson touching Don Cheadle's arm in that interview. His answer: "We talked about that."
@@gustavgnoettgen dude why you got to make this so weird, bringing up actors. Nobody cares
@@theMoporter dude why do you care and even answer. So weird.
The worst part about this story is, Captain Marvel's entire premise is completely contradictory: If she can stop the predictions from occuring, then *they cannot be accurate*.
BINGO, yes!
Not to mention literally fucking ANYTHING can happen in the marvel universe! By the time this happens they lived through several lifetimes of shit & her side wants to try to be preventative, absurdity at its finest.
well, idk about that. If the prediction would have otherwise come true had you not had the foreknowledge it would be accurate.
@@galarstar052 Could be, but it isn't. If a prediction can't account for the effect making the prediction causes, then there is at least some uncertainty. That makes him a valuable source of intelligence, yes, and certainly cause to act, but Danvers especially should be cautious about predictions that can be changed.
@@watchm4ker That is actually why I despise Civil War II so much... I'm a fan of Carol Danvers, have been way back when she still went by "Ms. Marvel"... which is why I know she would NEVER take the position of arresting people like this, it just doesn't makes any god damn sense when you consider both the actions she has taken and the things she's gone through
Literally there are so many other characters; Namor, Reed Richards, maybe even Strange, who I could buy taking the position of arresting people based on future visions, but not freaking Carol Danvers, they only put her there because she was popular at the time due to the film announcement, not because it actually made sense to her character
I'm glad someone explained why Civil War II sucks instead of just saying it does
Cuz now the people who go, "because it sucks" without saying why, can direct them to this vid.
+Tony Davis (Battlion50) Or they just read the comic and throw it away like I did.
Dude was I saying why it sucked from the start: bad out of character writing, a terrible plot solely driven by a plot device character created just for the event, and a conflict that made no sense. Tony flat stated why Ulysses's visions couldn't be perfect if they could be averted and Carol literally had no comeback for that, other than I might be able save someone who would have otherwise died so its worth it ignoring the obvious implication of Tony's point: you could also get people get people killed who would have lived something which had already happened at that point.
+Django Fett Yeah, but it had an interesting concept.
I kind of think the addition of Ulysses into the basic story was a problem. By which I mean, what if it was *Carol* who received these visions? That'd explain some of her conviction to believe in them, in a "You can't know, you weren't THERE!" kind of way. Instead we get this mystery kid with vague characterization who gets beamed off earth in the end as a clumsy ending to the ongoing crisis.
Civil War was a good idea handed poorly
Civil War 2 was a bad idea handled atrociously.
100x this. The first CIVIL WAR had a great premise, and then became a series of hamfisted character assassinations. It was this series that turned me away from being a long-standing regular Marvel reader. Curiosity led me to give CIVIL WAR 2 a shot, and I found that Marvel had learned shit-all from the first one, and once again decided to take a hero and make them an unlikable fascist, but worse. Dumb. Dumb. DUMB.
corvus1970 Civil war one was much better at the time. It was written pretty close after 911. At the patriotism was over shadowing a lot nunuance. I think it says more to how people viewed bush for a time
meh. civil war is fine at worst.
@Spider-Man Skipping the movie for this reason seems pretty silly to me. The Carol in the movie didn't do any of those things, and it's honestly a decent hero flick. Maybe give it a try!
Spider-Man While she’s not as bad in Captain Marvel, the movie is just so boring.
This concept is INCREDIBLY stupid in a world where people can literally travel back to our time from the future.
There's also the fact that killing the hulk was just to keep him out of the actual physical confrontation and to keep him from smashing both sides.
He's taken way worse damage even as Banner, and always just came back to life as a supremely pissed off Hulk. And yes, I know that they were specialized arrows made by Bruce to kill him but... he hasn't been able to do it before and lord knows he's tried.
not to mention that but bruce cant hulk out at that point. Though Marvel retconned that he was looking for a way to regain his gamma powers
But hey, it lead to Immortal Hulk. Which is amazing.
@@AlriikRidesAgain which is fair. Because wow is that book good.
+Jacob Keary Bruce wasn’t the hulk at the time. Another reason the visions were inaccurate.
He put a bullet in his head and the other guy spit it out.
I just want to point out that 1984 doesn't explore the idea of pre-crime as an actual thing but rather a rhetorical trap. It is basically impossible for any citizen to not be guilty of thoughtcrime. Those citizens know they're guilty and that guilt stops them from speaking out at the mistreatment of other citizens. You're not going to speak out and question their sham trial (if they even had a trial) if it means inviting the government into your life and bringing suspicion onto you when you are in fact guilty of something. There is no way to demonstrate thoughtcrime but no evidence is needes since nobody questions the government for evidence and thus thoughtcrime, rather than being some sort of demonstrable thing, becomes an excuse to execute citizens on an whim. Everybody looking out for their own skin alongside the education system being so shattered that most young folks - those most capable of revolting - are incapable of recognizing that thoughtcrime is a sham is how the system of oppression perpetuates itself, forever.
Minority Report is an exploration of the idea of thoughtcrime as an actual science fiction concept rather than the rhetorical trap laid by an oppressive regime that it was in 1984. Minority Report definitely plays a much larger role in shaping how we think of precognition while 1984 is really just about bog standard oppression tactics that were actually even being executed at the time by technological backwaters.
Its honestly terrifying how effective it is as a tool to make people turn against each other. Its an incredibly well oiled machine that produces paranoia and suspicion at a ridicolous rate.
Maybe that is just how Orwell sees thoughtcrime, a convenient political fiction masquerading as a sci-fi concept. It should be said that thoughtcrime isn't exactly a concept absent from most legal codes, although usually it's just called criminal intent.
@@pentelegomenon1175 its not really the same thing. Criminal intent are the motivations behind a crime thats already been commited. Someone who commited a crime by accident is not morally the same as someone who commited a crime willingly and maliciously. Its to establish the criminals character as a moral agent and thus determine a more fitting sentence.
Thought crime, in the context of wrongthink, is merely having thoughts that are not in line with the ones seemed acceptable by the state. They are by their very nature imposible to prove or disproof and merely serve to let you know(and those around you) that even your thoughts belong to big brother. You cant escape, even in your thoughts. Its very much intended to create an aura of paranoia and mistrust for everyone and even your very thoughts. You never know when someone might accuse you of wrongthink, you only know that youre screwed once they do. And by that same token you dont even know when you might actually commit thought crime, willingly or not.
A quote about children in 1984 "Nearly all children nowadays were horrible. What was worst of all was that by means of such organizations as the Spies they were systematically turned into ungovernable little savages, and yet this produced in them no tendency whatever to rebel against the discipline of the Party. On the contrary, they adored the Party and everything connected with it… All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals. It was almost normal for people over thirty to be frightened of their own children."
the only thing this story did was make Captain Marvel look bad.
Randolph Defreese Yeah, but Carol hasn’t really been a good character since she’s been Captain Marvel imo. She was at her best, at least to me, back as Ms. Marvel in the New Avengers era
I thought that what made her look bad was the face job, the hair cut, the boob reduction surgery, and the ass and legs reduction surgery? Ohh the other type of look bad.
Louis Victor That too lol
After Brie Larson, CM cannot be made to look any worse. Every time I see an image of CM, I'll always think of the, "I'm a noble, warrior, alien, hero princess" said with Brie's snarky irritating voice. They either need to make her into a villain or kill the character off in an embarrassingly spectacular fashion. Like how they killed Nightwing off in the Injustice comic: by tripping on his own baton while standing up in dead level, falling, and breaking his neck. Yeah, that kinda stoopid.
James Ooten on one hand, he didn’t trip on his stick; it was thrown at the side of his head. On the other hand, what a mind bogglingly stupid death.
Iron Man is the hero of this story who constantly tries to stop Carol Danvers from eagerly becoming a tyrant.
And gets murdered by her for trying to do the right thing.
And unfortunately it doesn't work now if iron man had talked about how he went down this path with the registration act and what he learned from it
LOGIC ALWAYS BEATS EMOTION AT THE END
nny156 ironic how she is now Marvel’s flagship character.
The hero and the protagonist aren't necessarily the same thing.
As soon as I saw Thanos brandishing a gun in one of the first issues, I knew this story was going in the wrong direction. Bendis will be Bendis and he'll change characters and stories in order to suit his stories and ideas. The Captain America comic and the final tie in, the Oath actually makes Civil War 2 better when you think something else is looming in the background of this story. This CW2 actually damaged Captain Marvel's character to a lot of people. Before that she was just blah for a long time, just coasting until her movie appearance.
The image of Miles with dead Cap has a problem. Yes, Miles is holding him in a weird way, but Cap is clearly stabbed from behind with a piece of debris. It could have been an accident for all anyone knew. There's no image if Miles actually stabbing Cap, so it comes entirely down to interpretation.
There is one clue that Hydra-Cap isn't the "real" Cap. "Real" Cap would have been a lot more forceful than just telling Miles to go home. He'd be at the forefront against Carol, and it would have been much more in character than his actions in Civil War I.
Some of the writers admit that the only real reason for this book was to tie in to the Civil War movie, so maybe this supposed to be some kind of poorly executed recreation of Spidey holding Cap's shield.
Can we address how again, that stupid twist of Cap being a traitor all along, goes against everything they just set up about him, and it's all for the sake of being "Unexpected"?
wait is Captain American in Civil War 2 not really Cap but actually Hydra Cap or am i just confused?
@@SuperMcSteel yeah that's Hydra Cap. 2 years late but ye lol
I know this is old, but another problem with that event was also inconsistencies between titles. In her own book, Carol was shown to doubt the visions and take a lot of time and resources to understand and verify the visions before acting. So basically she agreed with Tony. But they were still fighting. The whole event was just weird and badly executed.
Ulyssyss seems like a legitimate self insert, look how he’s drawn, plus he gets a fun little “meet cute” with all the other heroes.
sawy sauce
I don’t know, he doesn’t look like bendis.
They could've made Ulysses the main villain like he can somewhat manipulating future events cause maybe he had a hatred for heroes when he lost his families or he could've be some small-time crook who gain superhuman ability and being using his newfound ability of messing with everyone in the superhero community, something.
@@billymccrary2246That would have been a great plot twist, but it would have required Carol having to come to terms with how she made a huge, costly mistake and Marvel can't have even a slight stain on her character.
Great analysis, man. It's nice to know there are some places out there to get honest and forthright reviews. It's frustrating to read websites where the editors are terrified they might lose access to the creators if they permit objective reviews.
i agree some of these editors at these major websites only care about hits that's about it
Tevya Smolka ,that's so true bro
Captain Marvel has a cognitive "shadow" a mile long and therefore won't accept any counter arguments. All great character arcs with central protagonists should break down the outer "persona" and confront the shadow flaws in that character. No change is just boring.
It's also odd that no one came up with a middle ground. It was use Ulysses or don't. What about using the visions as an investigative tool? You don't immediately arrest people, but get to the locations ahead of time and see if anything is going on. Background check the "perpetrators". Ask Miles to hold off being Spider-Man for a while.
Cap marvel cant change because she is a perfect symbol to fight patriarchy
@@ronniejdio9411 a hate how conservatives bring politics into every discussion, and then accuse liberals of being the one to do that.
@@anonymousoff-brand7538 " turn this off..I wanna watch the news "
" this IS the news "
Hell no change can still be interesting even if they resolve to double down on their sins, and ignore them, because the results are all that matters. However the character needs to acknowledge it.
To knowingly decide to stain one’s self with evil to destroy evil as it where. Is incredibly interesting.
Hawkeye just knew how awesome that Al Ewing's Immortal Hulk run was gonna be.
It's in the first few sentences that I find one of the things that most bother me about these mega-events: In Civil War, Tony Stark was the by-the-book supporter of registration and Captain America was the rebel. Now we cut to Civil War II and Tony Stark is the rebel and Captain Marvel is the by-the-book supporter of whatever. It's as if they just randomly select characters to make up the sides of the issue and force-fit them into those roles for the duration. That's in addition to what you point out, that the random voices bring up certain compelling issues, but never deal with them or develop them. What I'd like to see is a character confront a particular conundrum, work out a way of dealing with it that works for them (and is in concert with their character as we've seen it develop over the years) and grow a bit in the process.
It could be that Tony learnt from the previous experience and doesn't want to punish people who haven't done anything wrong yet (like what was an unintended consequence of the hero registration). Tony repeating the same arc in this story would be pointless. If Tony and Steve Rogers swapped positions it would be terrible but having another new character enter the dynamic works.
@@jayzonedc6474 the issue however is that Tony never addresses that. Any of it. He doesn't say "Hey, Carol I've been where you are. I know how tempting it can be to want to solve the worlds problems in a quick and clean way..." It just never comes up. Which is crazy to me in what is essentially a sequel series.
@@jayzonedc6474 The problem is that Tony in Civil War is pretty much opposite to how he was back in Armor Wars, a previous time he and Cap were on opposite sides. Tony had no problem breaking into The Vault and disabling the Guardsmen armor (the technology of which WASN'T stolen, but that he sold) and allowing a mass break out.
Uh, that's what used to happen in monthly title comic books. They didn't need a 100 gazillion issue multi-arc crossover event for character development and problem-solving. That's why most older Marvel and DC character's series numbers are in the hundreds of issues, between 300-700 issue runs. That's why these characters are so beloved. The focus was on them in the spotlight of their own book, not trying to pick your favorite hero out in a splash page with a jeweler's magnifying lens. They didn't learn the lesson in a crossover study group. They graduated thru the school of hard knocks and you were there along for the ride. These guys make cookie cutter comics like Jason Bourne novels, but once you've read one, you've read them all.
I would even settle for going back to the days when the crossover events only happened in the annuals, which were only published in the summer months when school was out. That way the crossovers didn't interfere with the flow of the monthly titles. It was left up to each creative team when or if any of the crossover details spilled over into the monthly title, like a costume change, new power/weapon, team member's injury/death, team addition, etc. That kept the monthly books free of interruptions & you had something to look forward to every summer besides break.
Tony learns from his mistakes
At least we got that awesome Dr Doom story aka Infamous Iron Man. Until, marvel idiotically canceled it for low sales; even though, it sold consistently at 20,000.
Yes, I am fanboying. Because, it was an awesome series.
Especially, when Squirrel Girl, America, Captain Marvel, and Unbeatable Wasp sold less than 15,000; they were canceled after Infamous Iron Man for no reason.
Even though the smarter writers of DOOM know that DOOM is usually someone who considers himself a good guy and has valid reasons to.
That was so they could do Riri Williams as Iron Man/Ironheart so it could consistently sell between 8K-10K/month. I saw an old interview with Stan Lee talking about the heyday of Marvel in the 60's and early 70's. He said they put a creative team on a 3-month notice once sales hit 150K a month and cancelled anything that wasn't selling at least 100K per month. My, how the mighty Marvel has fallen. They don't have a single book that sells over 60K a month, and that's with making comic shops buy mandatory amounts of each title every month. That's with Marvel counting only what is sold to the comic shops as actual "sales." They don't keep track of, and will not allow comic shops to post what YOU the customer actually buy. It would be too damaging to the brand, to the stocks, and embarrassing all around. Unsold comics are not returnable. If Marvel puts out a crap series that no one buys, the comic shop takes the hit.
Not many outside of the business know how dirty Marvel actually is to the local comic shops. They could ship an entire month's run blank on the inside & their sales numbers would not suffer. The comic shops bear all the financial risk while Marvel makes most of the profit. The shops only make cents to the dollar. They have to sell a LOT of comics just to break even. That's why you see comics shops selling back issues, DVD's, novels, action figures, posters, games, trading cards, holding events & card tournaments, selling refreshments & snacks. Comics get people thru the door, but they don't pay the bills. Even with having the shops over a barrel, Marvel still sees the shops as a financial liability. That's the real reason they keep trying to go digital. It ain't environmental because of the paper or because it's the digital age - it's because they're greedy SOB's and they want every single cent paid for the price of a comic. Remember that while you're holding on to a series that sucks over sentimental reasons or habit, all the while keep collecting it every month hoping it will get better, or something exciting will happen, or they'll change creative teams. Why are you loyal to a brand that's only loyal to the $$$? All you are or will ever be is a paycheck to them.
@@jamesooten3659 how do they keep of track of sales and know which titles are doing well in this case? Is it just based on online sales or what?
This reminds my of one part of Linkara's look at the first Civil War: "Both sides are wrong and I hate them." Instead they just made it, "One side is wrong, and I hate it."
Story was very badly exploited but I ADORED the art. Love David Marquez.
Not only that in the Doctor Strange book magic has been stripped nearly clean from existence and in the beginning of Civil War 2 you have all the magic users blowing off giant spells. Not to mention that Luke and Danny decided to steer clear of fighting their friends again after the first civil war but there you see them in civil war 2
To be fair every book but Doctor Strange ignored Doctor Strange, Hercules and Scarlet Witch had their own "magic is dying" thing at the same time.
lettersndnumbers what’s weird about civil war 2 with Danny and luke is that Danny was in jail during the event and had a whole break out arc they shouldn’t even be in the main book
@@CAKECO. editorial needs to do their jobs...jeez...
Seriously, how come you don't have a lot of subscribers? Your channel is fantastic.
Because comic books are a hobby that is not very popular.
People only follow the movies and because of that they feel intimidated due to the years of of information and potential spoilers for upcoming movies.
Video games, movies and tv series are much more popular themes that more people visit on the internet.
Overall, I would say that this guy is pretty big for for your average comic book channel who usually don't last long.
Because he gives his opinion and doesn't plagiarize comic writers work like Comicstorian and that fat slob Comics Explained
I agree. His channel is incredible. I got into comicbooks in a big way a year ago and he's been a huge factor in my enjoyment.
Scott Sanders how does comicstorian plagiarize
@@scottsanders1485 Comics Explained literally explains comic book stories for the average person who doesn’t read comics and he also gives his opinion. He isn’t that far off from Comic tropes here. If you want to shit on him, be my guest. But pick reasons that make sense.
Why does Thanos need a gun? I miss the Starlin Thanos, the one who is manipulative, cunning, and just does what he wants.
I feel like Starlin is the only one who can ever write Thanos and Adam Warlock well
@@dallasgrey4247 Agreed. I would throw Silver Surfer in there too but I haven't read any non Starlin Surfer stuff to say for sure.
You misinterpreted Kurosawa's quote completely.
By his definition, Captain Marvel is the villain, because she is locked and petrified into being what she is. She won't accept that Ulysses visions are wrong. That's villainous.
Maybe. Couldn't you just as easily argue that Tony is locked into an "old" way of fighting crime, post hoc, and it's Carol who has accepted change into her life by trying out this "new" way of fighting crime: before-the-fact?
I mean, we're trying to apply a really elegant idea, as proposed by a genious filmmaker, to a story that's just so ham-fisted and ill-conceived that I'm not sure it's gonna fit nicely no matter what. But that's, I think, the direction Chris was coming at it from, anyway.
@@Jesse__H I think it moreso it shows how poorly written the story is because we really have two immutable characters as villains trying to act as protagonist to each other.
CAROL IS EXTREMELY ARROGANT
Hero and protagonist are two different things
@@thealien2437 Carol is definitely the antagonist here. The antagonist's defining role is to be the main driver of the plot; essentially, to cause the problems that the protagonists then have to address. That is exactly what Carol does by misusing Ulysses's powers.
I'd like to say thank you for this review. You don't SCREAM and blame the comic creators for "SJW properganda" and talk about how Captain Marvel "looks like a maaaaan!!" or attack readers, blaming them. If you don't like the book or writing, you act professionally. Personally, I don't like how Marvel has been forcing Carol Danvers down fans throats as "The best HERO EVER! The most powerful, the smartest, THE BEST!" in the last couple years. This action has had made many fans bored with this, and irriated. Many readers want Marvel to slow down, some want Danvers to go away, but no matter how you put it, readers are tired. Marvel has been trying to make her more realatable like having her go on dates and having a tough time, going to therapy, having girls night's, but it's not working. Her book is bombing, and it looks like Marvel refuses to take no as an answer(many writers have picked fights with fans on social media.....and aren't mature about it. I.e. calling people who disagree "Cis white bullys", "Sexist", etc. Making things worse.). By this, I and many fans are VERY skeptical about "Avengers 4". We're scared that Carol will swoop in, and make all the heroes we know and love look stupid, or useless or worse.
RedDragonM1 ok liberal
RedDragonM1 maybe in preparation for the movie, I wonder? Either way that sucks, and I’m all for diversity in comics- they’ve often been at the forefront in that regard (at least in the past). Picking fights with readers just seems immature...
I think she's been written all over the place for most of her existence, and there are tons of concerns about that and the general fatigue some readers have with her. We can address all that AND acknowledge that there's also a hefty dose of general sexism when it comes to the character. Like damn, if she does swoop in and save the day, that's not really any more contrived than what they've been doing with Iron Man the last decade. Which is also bad storytelling and tiring, but people get way more visceral when a female character does the exact same thing.
Nocturne22 Iron Man started the MCEU 15 years ago. He's put in his work, as most other character have. She's had one movie, and it was a couple months ago. It's not the same, and it has nothing to do with what's between her legs.
Guess what? Woman can be criticized without it having to do with their gender. Yup... mind blown right?
@@MrThankman360 11 years actually :)
You have to say though, the art in the main run is pretty stellar.
I think Tony used Hulk as an example specifically because of the events of Planet Hulk and World War Hulk. He KNOWS what happens when you try to preempt these things.
The dial-up noises brought back so many memories.
13:34 I Still think that Tony bringing up the Hulk like is he basicly saying "Oh yeah, remember how well that thing you are doing went last time we tried It"
I've been saying this forever, Bendis is overrated. One of his biggest flaws is writing himself into a corner then jettisoning a characters personality to get himself out of it. Your Hawkeye example perfectly illustrates this. Readers are usually too taken with the empty Mamet-esque banter he writes to notice.
As for Civil War II, I'll admit I didn't read it, but if the premise is a person who can tell the future being exploited by law enforcement, um why didn't anyone think of that when Destiny was on Freedom Force, a federal law enforcement agency?
Oh and I stumbled across your channel and am happy I did. This was a fair, well thought out and detailed analysis. Good stuff!
The old rule-- treat every issue like it's someone's first one they've read-- is still relevant.
Captain Marvel is the Nickelback of comic books
That is the most compelling post in this column.
That's offensive to nickelback.
Wow, never thought I would say that.
I'm through with standing in line at clubs I'll never get in
Why you insult Nickleback so much, they at least done something good, unlike certain MARVEL character
I can't believe I'm defending Nickelback but at least they have some diamonds in the turds. Captain Marvel is just a vast lake of diarrhea that contaminates everything it's in contact with.
Wouldn't have been better to have seen rhodey trying to mediate the conflict. Trying to balance his old friendship with tony and relationship with cpt. Marvel. Then you would actually have a great conflict and emotional recoil when we see war machine die, thus breaking out this new conflict.
Brian Michael Bendis is not a great event comic book writer.
Theres evidence that he hasn't been a great writer (period) for the last several years.
Brian Michael Bendis is not a great writer, period.
Bendis only great event was Secret Invasion. He loses marks for Siege because of the lazy premise.
Michael Langfitt Wow that's a little much. Bendis is great when the stakes are smaller. That's why Ultimate Spider-Man was so popular.
To be honest, until Snyder I'd say a good event writer nowadays was an oxymoron.
Infotron is helpful. Hope he keeps coming back.
I mean, he's literally down in my basement now so he can always come up whenever I need him.
Yay!
I’m glad to finally see an analysis of Civil War 2 that isn’t just “PC Marbel!” ranting
Logan Jericho
Well, there is that. But it wasn't the reason this event sucked as hard as it does. It's part of it. But the reasons he lists are more major.
You would love Professor Thorgi then.
How is it "PC/SJW" when, as ComicTropes explains in a video, the book avoids actually talking about any social issues and only uses them as an excuse to have heroes fight each other? if anything, people had a theory Bendis is doing this book to sabotage Captain Marvel's push because he was banned from having Guardians save Earth from alien invasions to not make her look bad (which is not confirmed).
I think it's more that the civil war 2 book is linked to events preceding and succeeding it which definitely stray into those territories. It's not that there's PC themes there (comics have always leaned liberal for the most part) it's that there's such a heavy handed one-note method to hammering in the message the past few years that even many of us liberals are tired of it because it's impacting the quality of the characters and the story in service of the idealized themes. Things like characters lacking in flaws is very common, which goes against what Marvel has always been.
Logan Jericho yes! There's so much wrong with Marvel that have nothing to do with "PC" or whatever. The comics industry as a whole, mainly the big two, have always been incompetent
You know, I am missing an argument here (and elsewhere). Stopping a catastrophic event does not guarantee a better outcome, something that should be clear from them trying to stop Thanos.
Let's say they actually kill Thanos. Someone could find his homebase and use the technology in worse ways he has. It was neverhis goal, but Thanos has an arsenal that could destroy earth. His robot armada has been shown bombarding a planet while in Infinity Crusade he had a Dreadnought that could shoot a hole halway into a planet. If they come out of FTL in fireing range, and they are capable to do that, no hero on earth could stop that.
And that's just one possible outcome of many from this scenario. I mean, he had the cloning facility to create a clone that was a mixture of him and Galactus.
Or consider this. Let's say they catch a Hydra spy. He is sent to prison and dies. Let's say his son grows up without a father and blames the heroes for it. And we have a villain that has no complex goals, he just wants to kill superheroes. That could be catastrophic on it's own, but let him be manipulated, trained and equipped by Hydra.
Destiny actually saw her own death and knew it was neccessary to beat the Shadow King in the end.
All that stuff and they don't adress it?
That reasoning is too complex for the SJW mindset of outcome equality. Under equality of outcomes, Thanos is bad. Thanos living is bad. All outcomes deriving from Thanos living will be bad at some point. If Thanos is killed, that's good. Then all outcomes from that point moving forward will be good. You're throwing too many what if's around in an attempt to derail all the good outcomes everyone will have when Thanos dies. Bad human - Reee! lol.
Good explanation. I agreed that the story had no beginning and no ending. Just a middle and a name to try to cash in on a few extra bucks with the release of Captain America: Civil War
I barely think the first Civil War worked to be honest. Between I or II...I'll just stick with the Marvel movie
FelpHero the movie was awful. The comic was good but it needs a lot of context to make sense
@@paulakroy2635 Atleast CW is better than those two shite spiderman movies
The concept itself was good given the times. Execution however was oh lord something else even if we ignore the pingpong ball to follow all related issues.
Lightskin Superman woah, this guy doesn’t like the big fun marvel movie. Let us now before him, for he has an unpopular opinion and thus is obviously smarter than everyone
@@darkartsdabbler2407 cope
And i thought that the original civil war did Iron Man bad. After CW 2 you wonder what marvel is hoping for with captain marvel, who are the readers that like this? It doesn't look like they're working on a redemption arc either, if they intend for her to replace captain america as the primary 'pro government' hero, they're doing a terrible job of that too. At this point the only conclusion that seems reasonable is either marvel wants us to hate her which doesn't make sense because they've been promoting her in everything, or that the writers at this point are incompetent beyond belief.
Ajmal Sohail
I like to think of it as a choose your own adventure story. See, these are really the only possible options. Both are terrible. So choose wichever one you want. A reality where protagonists are actively disliked or a reality where incompetence runs the office at Marvel Comics.
Replace Caps as pro government? Cap is usually at odds with the government. Specially in the original Civil War. He is seldom pro government.
They were only preparing fans for the living embodiment of toxicity that Brie Larson is. Talk about casting to type.
I’m so sad that such a talented artist had to draw such a bad story! The comic itself looks absolutely beautiful. I really like the simplistic style that it’s drawn in. Anybody know any GOOD comics this artist worked on? I really wanna see more of this style!
A very good analysis. I mostly avoided Civil War to because everything I heard indicated that i'd dislike it. The part I did read was the Power man and Iron Fist tie in, in which people (Mostly former street level Villains and their families) were being arrested for crimes they didn't do or never happened due to a Genius super villain hacking government databases. Leading to Luke Cage and Captain Marvel clashing over a Jail break in which Luke planned on busting his best friend/Super Hero team mate Danny Rand out of jail as well as maybe a few other innocent people. Captain Marvel's involvement caused a much larger prison break in which a number of Super villains got out.
To me the point of this, in terms of Civil War II at least, was very much a Minority Report type thing. Since even if the Visions were 100% true they could never be 100% accurate because they were very much "Visions" as Ulysses was quite literally SEEING the future and not only could he not see everything but as a random civilian he lacked a lot of context for his vision. The problem was that Captain Marvel and her camp weren't really trying to understand the visions but just taking them as 100% exactly what would happen.
It's fascinating to hear your analysis. I've heard that Civil War II has not been doing well in sales but not the reason. Can you do a video analysing Civil War I? And maybe a contrasting video on why Rebirth has so much hype, and is it justified?
mishimaro Possibly. I will say that what little I’ve read of Rebirth (Batman and Mister Miracle) have been very good.
Captain Marvel's argument is practically the same as Hydra's in Captain America Winter Soldier
I'll say it once again this story line is Minority Report, the Marvel way! Seriously, the plot follows Minority Report right down to the government keeping a future seeing psychic in a hidden facility!
Well, what do you expect? With everyone having a "controversy" every five seconds, and getting sued over the stupidest shit. It'd be no wonder many companies have gone the routes that they've taken things. Marvel just wants to make sure that it's "diverse" enough to keep people happy, even though the hard core fans that have been with them for years get alienated. Hell I'm still pissed off to beat all hell that they killed Bruce Banner off just to replace him with some no-name Asian guy that had no real background to the Hulk other then a couple of throw-away story lines in World War Hulk. Much like what they did with Iron Man just now by making him a teenage Fe-male. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good update to characters, or for them adding in characters that are more "diverse", but they need to do it right, don't just slap a pink tag on it, and expect people to just accept it. That's just bad, and very lazy story telling.
Haven't read it, but based on your analysis, this comic sounds like it has a lot in common with Taxi Driver, A Clockwork Orange and American Psycho. A demented person comes dangerously close to self-awareness, but in the end their brutality is vindicated. They are rewarded, and get to continue living their lives.
That's a great way to put it.
Comic troops and comicstorian are my go to RUclips channels when it comes to comics related matters. Comic troops is best at providing deep analysis, a profound comprehension and history of many comics including independent and international publishers.
Good on you mate!
Well it had Inhumans very close to the centre of the story. That was all that was needed to make the story bad.
Black Bolt, Royals, Secret Warriors, Ms. Marvel, Lockjaw, Karnak...
Grim Goblin And how many of them is still going?
And what it has to do with their quality?
Because all but one of them were good enough to stick around. If memory serves aren't the Inhumans being killed off and having their push taken away from them?
What does "good enough to stick around" means exactly?
I really enjoy the Captain America tie ins to this event, It explains how Hydra Steve was lurking in the shadows and attempting to pull strings to pull apart the heroes
I think it might have made some sense if the roles were reverse where Iron Man thinks that they could prevent the future with the Inhuman's power and Captain Marvel being the one trying to prove him incorrect. And Iron Man having feeling guilty on the lost of his best friend because of what his actions lead to which would lead him in trying to fix his mistake by improving and experiment on the Inhuman's future sights. By doing so would lead to questioning morality and how you can deal with future knowledge. From what I learned from this, Iron Man should have been the Protagonist and not the Antagonist. OMG they are trying to repeat Civil War I by making Iron Man the enemy. I know you said they were trying to Bank in the movie when it was going to be out but It's kind of forced.
So, to simplify, what you're saying is that if the roles were reversed you can clearly see how Tony would confront the problem, adapt, & change. However, whatever side of this conflict Carol is on, she would be this blunt instrument incapable of evaluating her perspective and incapable of change. Yep - got it.
@@jamesooten3659 nice
I always felt that CW2 should have ended with figuring out that the precog was projecting doomsday scenarios when his life was in imminent danger. And Tony sacrificing himself to stop the precog and Carol realizing she was wrong but the world hailing her as a hero.
"Can't have Tony being the bad guy AGAIN, he's popular now." And that's as much of a reason as they could muster for making the guy who cloned Thor into the hero, lol. Also Carol kinda had a mini panic attack/breakdown when she was temporarily given cosmic awareness in the Ultimates. She legit freaked out at how fragile existence was.
Well done analysis, let's hope the MCU Captain Marvel is nothing like the version in Civil War II.
TheHunterWolf Agreed.
Sadly Brie Larson is the most toxic self-absorbed actress in Hollywood.
The precognate... is shy about asking out a girl. He has the one power that would allow that to be impossible for him, whether he's naturally shy or not, because he knows whether he will have a positive reaction before saying anything. That right there is better proof than anything that he can't truly know the future.
Really Cool and thoughtful Analysis. I would love to see more of this kind of videos for non-superhero comics/series (I really enjoyed your Love & Rockets Tropes video, maybe a similar analysis/video for Hoppers & Palomar stories? Cerebus?)
Congrats and Keep up the Great Work!
Cheers!
i.
Ike Morph I'm speaking with some of my female friends about a possible future Cerebus video.
cool man
skunkape Awesome! Should be fun...
Cheers!
i.
It coul be an interesting comic: Ulisses kills Marvel Universe.
Ulisses (with a help of some heavy hitter eg. Cpt. Marvel) stops all major events by predicting them and stopping before they happen.
Eg. hunting Skrulls before their Secret Invasion, stopping the gamma bomb test or preventing Spider-man from taking the black suit...
this is the episode that made me love comic tropes one of the most in depth episodes at this time the analysis gets me every time
I get the feeling civil war 2 was mostly used to put away older characters and Spotlight new marvel characters like totally awesome hulk, ironheart etc. if that was the case I wish after rebooting the Marvel universe that they would have done a hard reboot for these new generation of characters since its "all new, all different marvel now"
Mario U if that's the case the buried themselves cause look at there sales
The thing is, its an idiotic way to replace the characters. There is a simple concept that lets you replace current heroes with new ones for a large number of them, its age. Tony moves to doing more command center esque work and iron heart takes over the day to day iron man stuff. That would work for any of the human' heroes.
I've always been open to new characters replacing old ones. But doing it in this straight up idiotic way doesn't do the new heroes any favors.
All of Marvels problems could probably be solved if they brought back alternate universes.
This came up in my suggested and this was the first video that I ever got suggested. It was almost 5 years ago and Chris has just always been funny and informative. Thanks for all the content!
This story was my first real introduction to Carol Danvers. I knew she was Captain Marvel and i knew some of her powers but that was about it. After reading it i hated her and i still haven't read any comics about her.
Also I just realized something where's was Peter Parker aka Spider-Man in this whole entire stupid event
He was dealing with problems within Parker Industries.
smashmaster521 oh yeah that did happen man that tie in was bullshit
@@TevyaSmolka The best tie-in for Civil War II, if you ask me, was Captain America: Steve Rogers, because of how great it was to see HYDRA!Cap play everyone like fools...and when the most likable character in Civil War II is a corrupted version of Steve Rogers, then that's a sign that Marvel fucked up.
i can understand why you thought that tie-in was the best within this civil war II garbage but like you said the most likable character is basically hydra/cap who was also trying and basically succeeding taking down the heroes like fly's which is even more messed up the more you think about it like that, also i agree Marvel did fucked up with that big time.
@@smashmaster521
I don't know how a 2-1/2 year old video popped up in my YT que, but I guess my comments have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight re: this. As far as Cap goes, he's a damaged goods character. No matter the amount of retconning, they ain't never gonna wash the Hydra & antifa stank off of him. Factor in that they cucked him by retconning America Fierra doing the Hitler punch-out way back when. Also factor in that Chris Evans was a closet SJW, but let it all cut loose on the fans during the publicity tour and during interviews once AV 3 & 4 were already shot. Add on that Mark Waid doxxed fans, went off on fans on Twitter/Instagram, verbally attacked & embarrassed fans at conventions, and had the ego to write himself into the comic as a future descendant of Cap who becomes a future version of Cap. In my personal view, Cap is washed up & finished as a character. They could pull Fabian Nicieza out of retirement as writer and have Jim Lee handling the pencils/ink and I'd never look twice at it. At this point, how many original Marvel birth-era characters does Marvel have left to throw under the bus for simple shock value? We're gonna p*ss away 30, 40, 50 years of character development for this shock reveal on a storyline I cooked up last night while buzzed at the bar. Yep! Run with it. Yeah, we'll double sales for 1 issue, then drop from 50K a month to 15K, but that's OK. He's an old character with not a lotta miles left.
Marvel never learns. Marvel royally screwed Spider-Man fans back in the 90's with the Clone Saga. Prior to that, they were selling six S-M titles a month at 300K per book, per month. That didn't include S-M 2099. So, close to 1 mil S-M books per month in total. At those numbers, why throw a monkey wrench? Oh, but they couldn't resist the temptation. So, yeah - the Spider-Man/Peter Parker you've been reading and collecting for the last 22 years? Well, he's a fake, a clone. Here's the real Peter Parker, he's just been wandering the streets of NY waiting for the chance to take his life back. Long time fans felt betrayed and collectors thought there goes the value of all my old books. Well of course they backed off and fixed the mistake, but the damage was done. In the end they were left with 2 S-M titles, Amazing & Spectacular, selling at 75-100K per month. I read that issue while eating some lunch, went back to the comic store, and told the owner to cancel my pull list for all the Spider-books. I haven't even looked at a S-M book since. As a fan, you've not been burned until you've been Marvel burned. Not only will they burn you off a certain book or creative team, they'll burn you off a character for life. My burn list? Thor, Iron Man, Capt. America, the Avengers, War Machine, Spider-Man, and anything or anyone X-Men related. Wouldn't touch SJW Marvel with a 10 ft pole. So I have nothing left for Marvel except ill will.
I've gotten immense enjoyment at the fact the Disney has been leasing Marvel characters out to IDW Comics. It seems that Marvel has no interest in making any comics aimed toward kids & young teens, but IDW will. See, there's Marvel running with scissors AND blinders on. How do you grow a customer base when you alienate your adult & young adult clients and don't even address a sizable demographic? If you get the kid in the store, you get at least one of the parents in there too. If they never develop a love for comics, they're not one day as an adult say, "I think I'll get into collecting comics as a hobby." Here's to IDW doing Marvel better than Marvel does. Their NY Headquarters' 25 year lease comes up for renewal in 2020. Right now they ain't selling enough comics to pay the bills. Disney ain't gonna prop them up for the next 25. I see 2 options: 1) Lose the NY base and pull Marvel into Disney Animation in CA. 2) Phase out Marvel Comics. Lease the characters out to established comics companies like IDW, while retaining the movie rights. Stress that if said companies don't perform better than Marvel, the character leases will be pulled. Bank on the fact that new blood and fresh perspectives will generate great stories that will turn into movie gold. If I were Quesada and CB Chugabrewski, I'd be quaking in my shoes 'bout now.
About Dan Harmon's story structure: it would be conceited of me to say that he's getting his own structure wrong, but I'm going there anyway. A better description of the "pay a heavy price" thru the end of the cycle would be: heroes succeed at getting what they wanted, but they realize that they have unleashed unintended consequences, and have to decide whether to give up their hard-won prizes to fix the harm they caused. Usually they do, and the return to status quo is more about, the hero returns with a different prize than expected, in the form of wisdom and a better way to live. EXAMPLE: the first-season "Community" where Jeff pretends to be Professor Chang's friend for better grades (Chang has been inordinately cranky and has been punishing the class with insane projects). Jeff gets the better grades, but he's doing nothing to help his friends in the class; so instead he resolves to fix the actual problem in Chang's life (his wife left him) and give up the better grades. Jeff doesn't return to the status quo with the prize he initially wanted, but he gets one that is perhaps more important: he is a better person, plus his friends respect him (plus, Chang stops punishing everyone in the class but Winger).
I love this channel so much. It's what the comic book scene on RUclips really needed😊 Thanks man
Everybody knows Bendis hates Hawkeye.
Bendis should know by now that everybody hates him.
James Ooten I like him
Clint Barton's and Kate bishop's hawkeye are both hated by Bendis.
The upside of Civil War II was an expanding of 2099's heroes. I loved seeing Iron Fist 2099 as a bartender with ZERO attention drawn to him aside from literal metal hands.
I love this channel. It’s a mature, well researched approach to comic reviews. You’re a terrific and entertaining narrator. Keep up the solid work.
CW2's working title was The Character Assassination of Carol Danvers, little known accurate true fact.
Captain Marvel getting defeated by Iron man and getting sent to jail would've been a better ending. Then they just could've played it off that this Ulysses guy was interfering with her mentally causing her to get unstable.
Eh, that last part needs some work
Just say that Rhodey's death lead to a breakdown and she needs to deal with her grief and loss in a better way. She has a history of alcoholism, so this could almost have been a substitute for that addiction. Instead of drinking, she becomes a huge control freak. It's a way to push her to be a better hero.
Or maybe Tony punches her into a coma. She spent several years in one before. She should be used to it by now.
I really enjoyed the extra steps you took to add to the video, and the depth you gave to the analysis of this comic crossover.
My god, this guy is the weirdest man alive... and I LOVE it
Recently discovered this channel and have been binging it.
I will say this is a much older video but has a lot more consistent audio which is strange, but uhm bring back infotron
10:03 She actually kill him but sadly this was never addreassed as it should have been adressed or is punished in any way for this.
"Eventually Captain Marvel punches her opponent into a coma."
I literally did a spit take. A LITERAL SPIT TAKE.
The robot saying "11011" make me laugh for some reason
I thought Civil War I was badly written from what I had heard of it, but wow...
Neither Civil War 1 nor 2 is very good in my opinion.
I guess he hasn't gotten to the level of Bill Jemas, former Editor in Chief of Marvel (The bad kind of editor) and is responsible for Marville (A "comedy" (Seltzer and Friedburg quality) comic then turned pseudo-philosophical spiel) against Peter David's Captain Marvel (Shazam now) and Ron Zimmerman's Ultimate Adventures (from what I hear is a pastiche to Batman).
Spider man reveals his identity, something he wouldn’t do, and it bites him in the ass. Cause now bad guys that want him and his family dead know who he is.
Infotron is such a supportive robot.
The dial-up gag killed me
I've never been more entertained listening to someone talk about comics. Thanks!! Subscribed
Civil War 2 turned into a character assassination of Captain Marvel. Even in the issues where we're supposed to relate to her, it felt like they went out of their way to make her unlikable. I gave up on it after the first issues (initially). I gave it a second chance due to a Comixology sale and it was the same mess I remembered. You can't really have a great story when you go out of your way to make your main character a jerk. :(
Your channel has got me wanting to get back into comics. Really enjoy these videos. I'm like below a noob when it comes to comics, but these videos are great.
Does anyone remember when Ms. Marvel was a likeable and upstanding character? Old games, cartoons like EMH and SHS, etc. made me admire her, and then she was retooled at some point under the mantle of Captain Marvel, and she has been an awful shadow of her former self ever since. Even the live-action film couldn't save her, it seemed to only further the dislike for her, it's a real shame...
I was excited for the storyline where she was going to take up the mantle; I thought they were going to go in the direction of giving her the nega-bands, and they went in a totally different direction....and have disliked her ever since. Marvel ruined her
few things haunt my dreams like the dial up sound. Great video.
Damn insightful vid. Outstanding analysis. Would love to see more vids like this.
Thank you. Something like this takes me a bit longer than a review of a single issue so I do not have the time to do them weekly right now. But I do have plans to create more.
The biggest issues I had with Civil war 2 where:
1) One side was Cleary in the wrong and was acting like tyrants in flashy costumes.
2)The heroes where either ones no one liked or care about or where forced to act out of their normal patterns just so bad plot happens.
3) The Wrong side won in the end and Captain Marvel just went on to terrorise the population in the name of safety.
I must disagree with this idea most protagonists are actively pushing the plot or proactive. 9/10 times it seems the protagonist is reactionary while the antagonist is proactive. How many times in shows, films books or comics do the villains strike first and the heroes react. The heroes rarely are proactive unless a big plot point needs to happen, it is time to remove a main villain or the story is wrapping up and the heroes for example raid the main evil base and crush the mastermind for good. Even then a good chunk of finale's are started by the villain attacking the heroes home base or place of work or family which then leads to the grand finale.
But I understood what you meant in the case of this train wreck comic series, In that Captain Marvel was the proactive one be it for the wrong reasons and being more of villain protagonist than a hero, as you know the two can be separate.
This series was just a grab for more cash from the first series,
And it went onto the shelves at the same time the movie came out.
8:07 “The heroes are the ones that still changing and the villains are locked and petrified into what they are” Akira Kurosawa.
While this does present a great summary for many kinds of hero/villain relationships, there are plenty of villains that are agents of change and who evolve over time, just as there are heroes that don’t change and who only serve to maintain the status quo. What else is Frodo Baggins doing besides trying to return the world to the sense of normalcy? He doesn’t want the Shire to be destroyed. He wants to protect the Hobbits from having to change.
Additionally, while the protagonist does choose to answer the call to adventure, the antagonist often disrupts the idea of normalcy (an evil wizard slays the king and burns the hero’s home village, a psychotic killer goes around murdering innocent people). We usually have a frame of reference for how things used to be before the antagonist raised amuck.
Inversely, of course, you can say that the villain is often doomed not so much because he’s evil, but because he holds strong convictions that don’t run parallel with the wrong person.
Many protagonists are often unambitious.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule and broad, sweeping generalizations tend to overlook some alternatives.
TwoCentReview The Hobbits change dramatically throughout the Lord of the Rings. The Hobbits transformation is one of if not the biggest parts of that story. It is an absolute heroes journey.
They are not trying to keep the shire from changing. They are trying to prevent the destruction of the world in which they and everything exist within.
To compare that with ‘they don’t want the shire to change’ as their motivation for the heroes journey is so far off base I have no idea where you are coming from and quite sure we read different books.
plus all of these tie-ins were all completely pointless
Best one was Hercules: Gods of War. That had little to do with this, amd completed his story.
ZoanBlade90 yeah I can understand that
most tie-ins are
Trembling Colors agreed
Afaik Illimunati was waaaay before the first Civil War, we're shown that Iron Man really regrets his actions at the end of that and realizes he's becoming the authoritarian he originally became a hero to fight against, so imo this is just a reference to that and not a consistency issue
- How did we know about the celestial threat?
- This is Ulisses. He can predict events like that.
- We should use his powers to prevent troubles before they apear.
[Ulisses whispers something to Captain Marvel.]
BANG !!!
[Captain Marvel have just killed Ulisses.]
- I've just prevented a civil war among the heroes.
I have been working away on my PC these last few days and have loved binging on your great content. Loved your live chat drawing Destro.
Yeah, Civil War II was a mess, but...there was a manipulator...who isn't mentioned or referred to in that way during the main book.
Cap was, of course, at this point, a double agent for Hydra...and he intentionally sabotaged things, taking actions to manipulate Ulysses' visions.
Cap's book isn't even listed as a tie in though. I love Marvel, warts and all, but man that's silly.
Striker Omega it obviously wasn’t planned to be
1:28 the first appearance of Infotron is such a historic moment in ComicTropes history! Lol the whole scene cracks me up, from the huge clunking footsteps to Infotron regurgitating the copy of Civil War.
"I have been living in your basement for the last five months."
"That was you? I thought that was the water heater."
*brilliant, hilarious zoom out from the water heater & Infotron*
😂perfect comedy right there!
I like this, this is what youtube was about and should be about, a weirdo with a camera and no budget explaining things to other weirdos. myself included
Best comment ever.
You have the best channel on the internet!!
I agree. This story was bullshit, especially the part about Hawkeye. I ended up really liking him despite not knowing about his history beforehand. Just shows the writers lack of competence and knowledge during this story.
I've watched a lot of your videos, and this is the best one. Really great break down, and really well thought out.
When they announced Civil War 2, I was like "Is it necessary to make another one?"
Spit balling here, but what if we took time to built up Brodie and Carol a bit in the first couple issues, maybe even have a proposal dinner. Something to cement their seriousness. Ulysses comes around and his visions have a strong accuracy. Everything this far, smaller stuff to start, has come true. Ironman, being skeptical as Carol attempts to integrate this into profiling, goes on to prove that these visions are just probability. But so far there have only been successes and Carol is convinced that this is more mystical than what Tony can summarize. She then turns to War Machine for guidance, who pushes Carol in that direction. Saying he loves Tony, believes him even, but a chance at saving the day is better than none. Then we get the Thanos call. And everything plays out the same. Tony, striken with grief comes after Carol, saying "Was chance worth all this loss?!" We get nothing but silence from Carol as she flies off. Seeking Ulysses out and asking for another vision.
We then see Captain America dead at Miles' hands. We have all the heroes screaming about what to do. Some siding with Tony now as we have physical evidence of the visions being probability based. Admist this chaos, we get a panel of Carol drifting into the darkness as the words fade out around her. The next panel is her approaching Spider-Man. She says: "I'm sorry about all this, kid." We see a look of hope on Miles' face before turning the page and seeing a determined Carol attempting to arrest Spider-Man. Tony gives his same defense, "You are turning on children!". But Carol turns to him and says: "You asked me, if all the loss we've had was worth it?" She turns to him, tears in her eyes, and says "It has to be worth something." And that's when our war begins.
Math teachers: 0 doesn’t equal 1
Comic industry: Woah hold up mister
I have never really been a fan of cosmic Marvel characters, so I don't know what is in or out of character for Captain Marvel, but I remember thinking that she wouldn't listen to anyone or change course in any way specifically because of the death of War Machine. She loved him. She got him killed. She couldn't live with that if it was all a mistake. She absolutely had to be right.