It's fascinating that LoTR/Hobbit feels like a subversion of the high fantasy genre despite being credited with spawning it. Rather than a young farmboy we have a middle-aged Hobbit. The protagonists never learns to fight and all the epic battles are just a distraction from the events that really matter. In any other story, Aragorn would be the Chosen One who saves the world from the Dark Lord. Instead, our actual hero fails and evil is destroyed by what appears to be pure luck. Heck, the narrative even criticizes our yearning for adventure and outright tells us that the world would be a better place if we would just be content with a peaceful life. Edit: Yes, I know it's not luck, that's why I said "seemingly". Personally, I believe it's Eru Illuvatar working behind the scenes.
The reason the Ring was destroyed wasn't "pure luck," it actually ties heavily into Tolkien's Catholic philosophy. What ultimately destroyed the Ring was that its wearer, Gollum, destroyed himself - in Tolkien's worldview, and indeed in much of Catholic philosophy, evil is _fundamentally_ self-destructive. What allows evil to sustain itself, according to this view, is doing evil _unto_ evil. This is why the ring cannot be used for good, because the ring itself is evil _in_ _essentia_ , and using evil "for good reasons" only feeds and sustains evil. At multiple points in LotR, Frodo is given the chance to kill Gollum. But he doesn't, instead he does the _right_ thing and shows Gollum kindness. By refusing to perform an evil deed against Gollum, even for a supposedly good reason, Frodo prevents evil from being sustained, allowing the evil of the ring to destroy itself.
^This! Frodo succeeds in carrying the ring to Mordor because of his humble beginnings. They aren't a flaw he has to overcome. He succeeds by remaining the same, not by seeking power or strenght. The Ring corrupts anyone, but not him because all he wants is to return home to the Shire(which is why it's devastating when he really doesn't). It blows my mind how many people (including modern fantasy authors) just don't pick up on that, it is literally text, not even subtext. Can you imagine how meaningless LotR would be if it ended with Frodo besting the Witch-king in a magic duel? Yet that is exactly how many authors think their story should end.
I’m about to spend my life savings on campfire specifically because of the powerful impact this sponsored message had on me. Simply put: my life is forever changed.
@@AroundTheCampfire i mean probably i've been working on a general (granted, planned to be HUGE) story for the better part of a decade, this will probably get me out of my stupid rut.
One thing I appreciated about the wheel of time is that even though it's filled with tropes everything is done so well it feels completely original. Gandalf and morraine are the same on paper but are two very different characters. Rand is every fantasy hero ever but his journey is written so beautifully and realistically that he becomes one of the best characters in anything I've ever read.
I really love the science used in WoT. Jordan knew what he did and it showed. The fact the magic even is said by him to be a modified version of thermodynamics is very interesting and reasonable given how elements are triggered when used.
The ta'veren is the most interesting concept in WoT. It serves a broadly narrative function of explaining irrational coincidence that 'benefits' the characters, of course, but is also a commentary on the narrative as a whole. The Pattern mindlessly weaves, but creates counterbalancing forces when it is threatened (the Ta'veren); every push forward by the shadow is counterbalanced by the Pattern arranging itself more or less in favor of the three boys, which ends up making the entire conflict about their choices, culminating in the final choice by Rand Al'Thor. In the end, The Dark One could only have won by convincing Rand to let it win. Of course, in my head-canon, there is no Dark One, and Ishamael is the Dragon who was, nihilistic half of a single split archetype, with Rand the counterpart.
Any genre of storytelling once it gets big enough will have its share of standardized tropes. Tropes are not bad in of themselves rather it’s how you use them.
5:26 "All of which are run by one flavor of Monarchy or other." Accepting that Tar Valon is an elective monarchy (not not counting other independent settlements at all), Amadicia is a de jure monarchy and Altara and Murandy are disunited/decentralized monarchies there is still two countries which are debatable. Tarabon is a diarchy. But I am willing to classify it under "monarchy" for the purposes of this discussion as well. There is one nation in the Westlands that is not in any way a monarchy. That nation would be Tear, as it is governed by an aristocratic Oligarchy of High Lords and High Ladies.
There is a 5 book series called Elric of Melnibone where the whole world is destroyed at the end. Its considerd a classic. Its from the 1960s so the books are only about 200 pages each. Its not a big time investment. You may want to check that out.
I want a fantasy series where the Chosen One is a fascist cult leader. I mean, being ordained by mythical forces to vanquish pure evil and bring back a glorious past sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it? And in the real world, those guys are rarely a force of good. Come to think of it, there's Dune. ETA: And Daenerys kind of I guess.
17:09-17:53 I don't that a high fantasy where evil wins would necessarily be bad. Greek tragedies end badly and are the basis of western literature. In addition, the hugely influential high fantasy series "the Elric Saga" ends with the main characters killing his entire race and then being killed by his own magic sword. Technically, the world lives on (with humans taking over) but, from the perspective of Elric, his world is pretty much gone.
I just started reading the second book a few days ago (because i was all out of Brandon Sanderson books apart from the end of the WoT series) so I guess I'll watch this video in half a year when im done.
Not gonna rewatch this, because I forget if it gets spoilery. I just wanted to say that this video inspired me to give WoT a shot, and having just finished the first audiobook, I'm having a great time. So thanks!
Ta'veren is not quite as Tullos describes it. The coincidences and luck really only manifest with one of the trio, Mat. And they can work badly as well. He is in a city and preparing to leave, when one of Mat's companions inexplicably goes off by himself and does not return on time. This forces Mat to remain in the city to look for him, and during his search, the city comes under an attack by a hostile Empire's armies, and a building falls on Mat, causing him to be severely injured and bedridden for weeks, and delaying his departure from the city for months. All of this is so he can meet a person who will be extremely important to his mission and destiny. This person came in with the settlers from the Empire, who followed the conquering armies. There is no way Mat would have remained in the city or returned after it was annexed to the Empire of his own volition, so fate struck to keep him where he had to be in order for the meeting to take place. The real secret to ta'veren is that it enables people to connect. The other major theme of WoT, besides the meta-narrative that is the subject of this video, is communication. That's how WoT is ALL the fantasy stories - as the intro to each book states "Memory becomes legend, legend fades to myth and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes round again." Throughout the story, we see people reporting on events of the series, but incorrectly, and we see people acting on the incorrect version of events they heard, in different ways than they would have acted if they knew the truth. We are also shown many cases where institutions or political conflicts or even interpersonal drama interferes with the fight against the forces of Evil, and it is very seldom malicious or unreasonable conflicts. The series shows how and why people will act according to their beliefs and loyalties and and agendas without understanding how they are contributing to the messed up state of the world, and endangering the fight against the Dark One. The way ta'veren enable the struggle against the Dark One is by facilitating communication and connections. People don't suddenly change their feelings about someone they hate to either sign a treaty with the other party, or swear fealty to him or marry him, what the ta'veren cause to happen is for the person to see the truth of the other party, to come to a realization about why they are a suitable leader to follow, or a good ally or relationship partner. Ta'veren allows them to see past all the constructs and mundane bullshit that comes between people and lets them make connections on a level that their nationalities or institutional loyalties or circumstances of birth would never allow. For instance, one of the ta'veren is a farmboy, who is very stubborn, determined to protect people, and committed to the idea of good government, and extremely brave and self-sacrificing. There is also a princess in the series who shares all those traits with him. Because one is a farmboy and the other a princess, there is very little chance of them getting to know one another in normal circumstances. Even though the farmboy is destined to rise high in the world, his career track will take him along ways that would be antithetical to the princess and her own agenda and identity. But because he is ta'veren, a handful of improbable coincidences cause him to fall off a wall into the palace garden where the princess happens to be. They meet, and she falls in love with him on the spot. Later, she comments on how weird it was to suddenly have these feelings for a man she just met, but after she gets to know him, those feelings are affirmed, and because they have so much in common and are so compatible, their relationship forms a major foundational part of the alliance that assembles to defeat the Dark One. Because they click so well, their relationship lasts even through a separation lasting from book 4 to book 9, during which time, she destroys a magical device that could harm him, against the wishes of her magic teachers, and later plots against the order of mages she has been raised to revere and wishes to join, for his benefit. He, in turn, goes to war with an evil sorcerer who has usurped her homeland for her sake, and arranges for her to take the rule of another realm whose rulers' succession was disrupted by war. That's how ta'veren works - it brings about the connections people need to motivate them to work together to save the world.
Check out Michael Morcocks works he created what we know of today as Dark Fantasy with works like Elric of Melniboné, or Moongloom, or Ericose. They all share a universe together and its awesome.
Tropes are like conduits through which character, as a type of energy, flows. You see some of this in shonen manga such as Dragon Ball, and recently with Naruto and One Piece. It also shows up in Star Trek and MANY other pieces of narrative art. I would posit that Robert Jordan crafted a kind of "prose VR" with the Wheel of Time, and that it's that close third-person POV that fills-in for a VR headset. Comparable to the last sentence in David Foster Wallace's The Pale King: "It's the ability to be immersed." Teaching readers how to channel, in a low-level way? Like most heyokas are anyway? That's been my experience at least.
Elric of Melniboné. In the final chapter the lead character is forced to murder his best friend, kill himself and the multiverse is destroyed by Chaos Gods.
So, could the Wheel of Time be influenced by the Elric Saga? I've read most of the Elric books, and I'm about 1/2 way through the Great Hunt, and I'm seeing a few similarities: Rand is the Eternal Champion The Horn of Valere is the Horn of Fate (they also do similar things, ressurecting dead heroes "death is no bar to my call")
Lexx actually does the , its not nessesary pessimistic but nihilistic. And weird, very weird and trashy with highly philosophical drama. And the best musical episode in any medium ever in a theatre with an operette. Which makes sense. And technically the bad guy wins an it starts in his , but the misfit crew who are not heroes do actually are still horny, except the undead, and move on in that very nihilistic deterministic cartoonish dark world. And i dont think the bad guys ever win, but the crew is already, , its nihilistic but actually optimistic that thre will always a way forward and its worth it. Also has a song thats about the tie repeating again and again. The series is about not heroes moving on and fighting despite not being heroes. Stan is a coward but he lived in a world where , the dark humor and , he has no reason to thing khe will ever be rewarded or a chance that it will get better, An Tev, is really horny what drives her more than wanting to be a hero, she was sheltered to be the perfect love slave wife and how is, hungry for exploring. And an undead thats the best. and has any reason to Its a fun series that is someho trashy and high concept with great drama..
Something that really frustrated me about WoT is that Jordan didn't really commit to this metanarrative. He sets it up in the first 4 books but it goes nowhere. Rand never contacts all the previous /future Dragons which are also him Avatar style to have a dialogue about the nature of the pattern, nor is there ever an evil ta'veren to be an actual challenge to the characters (possible exception Demandred and he's the best villain in the series for coming close to that). The metanarrative commentary feels like just a string of funny gags like "look! in-world plot armor!" that fails to actually elevate WoT to the metanarrative level its often regarded as. What I mean by elevating it is actually making a statement about the nature of the stories we tell ourselves beyond the simple acknowledgement that tropes exist. IMO this metanarrative presence in a story as long as WoT actually hinders the story when it is not fully committed to. So many of the arcs of WoT are rendered bland or even ruined (Bel'al/ Dragon's Peace) because of the way Jordan plays around with them half-heartedly. Its like reading the Belgariad, where you're not reading a story so much as an exercise in story writing. It makes the world feel plastic. I say this out of love of many aspects of the series, The arc of Rand Al'Thor is one the greatest I've ever read. It's just always struck me as odd that Jordan clearly wanted the metanarrative element to be so central but didn't actually have anything to say about it besides..... I dunno, myths are central to culture?
That all, and it's very likely been inspired by some real life myths, especially in Hinduism I know of similar ideas, but there are myths about cyclical time in most cultures.
@@glanni The reincarnation part definitly from there. Destined fates of people i think too. Its the oldest living religion so of course its influencal.. There is a fun free webtoon kubera thats, ok its hinduist inspired but ideas there, and worth checking out, through starting slow its good psychological mystery drama mix, thats fun, and sad, and fun.
@@marocat4749 i just checked it out, and it looks really interesting. I'm probably going to try getting into it when I have the calm to read something longer running.
I hate when the peasant boy can destroy trained professionals that have been practicing for years, by the end of the first book after traveling for 6 days, half of which he is injured.
you're right I never really thought about the similarities there. but the story the fate series told couldn't have been more different, therefore I think the term stole isn't quite right.
Yeah they did achieve there goal which why I need to force myself to start playing it again. My emulator keeps freaking out on me, (its actually just user incompetence) its really good so far.
Can i be honest Here? I didnt like mistborn(i read only the first one) i Could guess the ending pretty easily-yes i Know that a Hard magic system Will do that And that proves that is a strong book but i dont really enjoy to feel dump instead of smart when i know what Will happen instead of figure it out along the way with the protagonist... Now about the language... It read Just like another YA book to me... Actually Mistborn was one of the reasons i know read mainly SF instead of fantasy And epic fantasy... :( cause I felt like if one of the Best books of its genera Cant make me fall In love with the tropes again i dont Know what Will. So now i am taken a "break" that has lasted for three years now.... If Anyone has any sugestions feel free to leave them Here (not a fan of long series)
There is nothing wrong with Tropes. James even stated that tropes is gonna exist in any genre, what matters is how it is executed. That's why WoT is loved because it does its own spin on existing tropes that the author knew. Stormlight Archive is the same thing. It's loved for what it has, but it plays the epic fantasy tradition very well.
The frozen North, land of giants and witches. A bit like ASOIAF. Though this is only really the case in book 4. Narnian mythology is very inconsistent.
@@lizadon0740 here? what is here? what is here but a collection of discarded matter and anti-matter amongst the vast places between nowhere and everywhere.
It's fascinating that LoTR/Hobbit feels like a subversion of the high fantasy genre despite being credited with spawning it. Rather than a young farmboy we have a middle-aged Hobbit. The protagonists never learns to fight and all the epic battles are just a distraction from the events that really matter. In any other story, Aragorn would be the Chosen One who saves the world from the Dark Lord. Instead, our actual hero fails and evil is destroyed by what appears to be pure luck. Heck, the narrative even criticizes our yearning for adventure and outright tells us that the world would be a better place if we would just be content with a peaceful life.
Edit: Yes, I know it's not luck, that's why I said "seemingly". Personally, I believe it's Eru Illuvatar working behind the scenes.
The ring was destroyed because Frodo used it's power to cast a curse on Gollum.
The reason the Ring was destroyed wasn't "pure luck," it actually ties heavily into Tolkien's Catholic philosophy.
What ultimately destroyed the Ring was that its wearer, Gollum, destroyed himself - in Tolkien's worldview, and indeed in much of Catholic philosophy, evil is _fundamentally_ self-destructive. What allows evil to sustain itself, according to this view, is doing evil _unto_ evil. This is why the ring cannot be used for good, because the ring itself is evil _in_ _essentia_ , and using evil "for good reasons" only feeds and sustains evil.
At multiple points in LotR, Frodo is given the chance to kill Gollum. But he doesn't, instead he does the _right_ thing and shows Gollum kindness. By refusing to perform an evil deed against Gollum, even for a supposedly good reason, Frodo prevents evil from being sustained, allowing the evil of the ring to destroy itself.
@@zennistrad Yeah this is a super important point that a lot of people tend to miss.
@@zennistrad well said
^This! Frodo succeeds in carrying the ring to Mordor because of his humble beginnings. They aren't a flaw he has to overcome. He succeeds by remaining the same, not by seeking power or strenght. The Ring corrupts anyone, but not him because all he wants is to return home to the Shire(which is why it's devastating when he really doesn't).
It blows my mind how many people (including modern fantasy authors) just don't pick up on that, it is literally text, not even subtext. Can you imagine how meaningless LotR would be if it ended with Frodo besting the Witch-king in a magic duel? Yet that is exactly how many authors think their story should end.
This sponsorship announcement was very beautiful I'm in fact crying
I’m about to spend my life savings on campfire specifically because of the powerful impact this sponsored message had on me.
Simply put: my life is forever changed.
@@billyalarie929 no cap? 👀
calling up the oscars at this very moment with our nominee
@@AroundTheCampfire i mean probably
i've been working on a general (granted, planned to be HUGE) story for the better part of a decade, this will probably get me out of my stupid rut.
Campfire blaze, sponsored by that video, must he good if he sponsors it.
One thing I appreciated about the wheel of time is that even though it's filled with tropes everything is done so well it feels completely original. Gandalf and morraine are the same on paper but are two very different characters. Rand is every fantasy hero ever but his journey is written so beautifully and realistically that he becomes one of the best characters in anything I've ever read.
I couldn't get past the slog, but Rand is a wonderful character. One of my favorite characters.
@@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump He's at his best at the end of the series
@@Echidna23Gaming Not worth it.
I Prefer Darth Rand
@@rinokumura7371 Darth Rand definitely has some epic moments but Zen Rand is quite the vibe you have to admit
I really love the science used in WoT. Jordan knew what he did and it showed. The fact the magic even is said by him to be a modified version of thermodynamics is very interesting and reasonable given how elements are triggered when used.
So it was just warhammer 40k all along? Damned warp, oh the humanity...
No, it was Moorcock's Multiverse
The Thatcher in IRA joke made me burst out laughing. That was a good joke.
The ta'veren is the most interesting concept in WoT. It serves a broadly narrative function of explaining irrational coincidence that 'benefits' the characters, of course, but is also a commentary on the narrative as a whole. The Pattern mindlessly weaves, but creates counterbalancing forces when it is threatened (the Ta'veren); every push forward by the shadow is counterbalanced by the Pattern arranging itself more or less in favor of the three boys, which ends up making the entire conflict about their choices, culminating in the final choice by Rand Al'Thor. In the end, The Dark One could only have won by convincing Rand to let it win.
Of course, in my head-canon, there is no Dark One, and Ishamael is the Dragon who was, nihilistic half of a single split archetype, with Rand the counterpart.
James Tullos is that nerdy guy you make friends with in high school that turns out to be low key funny as fuck
Any genre of storytelling once it gets big enough will have its share of standardized tropes. Tropes are not bad in of themselves rather it’s how you use them.
indeed, tropes are tools
5:26 "All of which are run by one flavor of Monarchy or other."
Accepting that Tar Valon is an elective monarchy (not not counting other independent settlements at all), Amadicia is a de jure monarchy and Altara and Murandy are disunited/decentralized monarchies there is still two countries which are debatable.
Tarabon is a diarchy. But I am willing to classify it under "monarchy" for the purposes of this discussion as well.
There is one nation in the Westlands that is not in any way a monarchy. That nation would be Tear, as it is governed by an aristocratic Oligarchy of High Lords and High Ladies.
There is a 5 book series called Elric of Melnibone where the whole world is destroyed at the end. Its considerd a classic. Its from the 1960s so the books are only about 200 pages each. Its not a big time investment. You may want to check that out.
Agreed. It also has some very large influences on many popular series, like the Witcher
@holey scribe yep, especially dnd
@@whyonthefall5373 Now if only the author of the Witcher would admit how much Elric influenced his books.
@@brycezen1896 we can only wish
@@brycezen1896 how?
I want a fantasy series where the Chosen One is a fascist cult leader. I mean, being ordained by mythical forces to vanquish pure evil and bring back a glorious past sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it? And in the real world, those guys are rarely a force of good.
Come to think of it, there's Dune. ETA: And Daenerys kind of I guess.
Like Star Wars. Anakin was a fascist cult leader
@@missbecky1988
To be fair he wasn't really a cult leader... just a cult puppet, lmao
Yea I think Paul in Dune can fit that pretty well and also his son Leto II who becomes literally the god emperor of man
I was gonna say, dune is ur best bet for that
No matter what you do, existence does exactly that, goes on. No matter whom or what is seeing it.
I love this man, he literally tells all that is special about my favorite book
The concept of Ta'veren bending reality reminds me of Douglas Adams' Infinite Improbability Drive.
17:09-17:53
I don't that a high fantasy where evil wins would necessarily be bad. Greek tragedies end badly and are the basis of western literature. In addition, the hugely influential high fantasy series "the Elric Saga" ends with the main characters killing his entire race and then being killed by his own magic sword. Technically, the world lives on (with humans taking over) but, from the perspective of Elric, his world is pretty much gone.
The 14:40 cutaway killed me ^^ Well done!
I just started reading the second book a few days ago (because i was all out of Brandon Sanderson books apart from the end of the WoT series) so I guess I'll watch this video in half a year when im done.
This is your best video essay, I love it!
Not gonna rewatch this, because I forget if it gets spoilery. I just wanted to say that this video inspired me to give WoT a shot, and having just finished the first audiobook, I'm having a great time. So thanks!
Wow you got Puffin Forest to read that part at the end, that's cool
The Adventures of Randal and his buddies
Peregrine and mattress
Just started and maybe it's because I've read the books close to a dozen times, but I already see where this is going and I like it :)
Ta'veren is not quite as Tullos describes it. The coincidences and luck really only manifest with one of the trio, Mat. And they can work badly as well. He is in a city and preparing to leave, when one of Mat's companions inexplicably goes off by himself and does not return on time. This forces Mat to remain in the city to look for him, and during his search, the city comes under an attack by a hostile Empire's armies, and a building falls on Mat, causing him to be severely injured and bedridden for weeks, and delaying his departure from the city for months. All of this is so he can meet a person who will be extremely important to his mission and destiny. This person came in with the settlers from the Empire, who followed the conquering armies. There is no way Mat would have remained in the city or returned after it was annexed to the Empire of his own volition, so fate struck to keep him where he had to be in order for the meeting to take place.
The real secret to ta'veren is that it enables people to connect. The other major theme of WoT, besides the meta-narrative that is the subject of this video, is communication. That's how WoT is ALL the fantasy stories - as the intro to each book states "Memory becomes legend, legend fades to myth and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes round again." Throughout the story, we see people reporting on events of the series, but incorrectly, and we see people acting on the incorrect version of events they heard, in different ways than they would have acted if they knew the truth. We are also shown many cases where institutions or political conflicts or even interpersonal drama interferes with the fight against the forces of Evil, and it is very seldom malicious or unreasonable conflicts. The series shows how and why people will act according to their beliefs and loyalties and and agendas without understanding how they are contributing to the messed up state of the world, and endangering the fight against the Dark One.
The way ta'veren enable the struggle against the Dark One is by facilitating communication and connections. People don't suddenly change their feelings about someone they hate to either sign a treaty with the other party, or swear fealty to him or marry him, what the ta'veren cause to happen is for the person to see the truth of the other party, to come to a realization about why they are a suitable leader to follow, or a good ally or relationship partner. Ta'veren allows them to see past all the constructs and mundane bullshit that comes between people and lets them make connections on a level that their nationalities or institutional loyalties or circumstances of birth would never allow.
For instance, one of the ta'veren is a farmboy, who is very stubborn, determined to protect people, and committed to the idea of good government, and extremely brave and self-sacrificing. There is also a princess in the series who shares all those traits with him. Because one is a farmboy and the other a princess, there is very little chance of them getting to know one another in normal circumstances. Even though the farmboy is destined to rise high in the world, his career track will take him along ways that would be antithetical to the princess and her own agenda and identity. But because he is ta'veren, a handful of improbable coincidences cause him to fall off a wall into the palace garden where the princess happens to be. They meet, and she falls in love with him on the spot. Later, she comments on how weird it was to suddenly have these feelings for a man she just met, but after she gets to know him, those feelings are affirmed, and because they have so much in common and are so compatible, their relationship forms a major foundational part of the alliance that assembles to defeat the Dark One. Because they click so well, their relationship lasts even through a separation lasting from book 4 to book 9, during which time, she destroys a magical device that could harm him, against the wishes of her magic teachers, and later plots against the order of mages she has been raised to revere and wishes to join, for his benefit. He, in turn, goes to war with an evil sorcerer who has usurped her homeland for her sake, and arranges for her to take the rule of another realm whose rulers' succession was disrupted by war. That's how ta'veren works - it brings about the connections people need to motivate them to work together to save the world.
James Rand, finally
Hey, maybe I'm the Dragon, I don't know yet.
@@JamesTullos
Well, what do the voices in your head say?
@@Carabas72ooh ilyenaaa
Great video, I appreciate it very much, and now I wanna read the Wheel of Time ^^
Even though I just started reading Wheel of time I'll watch this video cause I don't care about spoilers.
You’re crazy
You really should
In a sense though, that's the point he brings up. That we know the destination already, but we're here for the trip.
17:11 That's basically Dark Souls. Though calling the Dark evil is a really shallow reading of the game.
This makes a lot of sense.
Dude you're scary when you're nice x'D
Wait- OHHH This was the Mary sue voice!! Ahhh Gothic xD
Man today has been miserable but at least now I've got a video to watch and a couple pigeons to snuggle.
If, in each world, every mentor character is Gandalf, then they would die and reincarnate twice in a cycle
Whoa, I haven't thought about septimus heap in ages
6:40 - missed opportunity to say "magically castrated" 🤣🤣🤣
Would Michael Moorcock’s Eternal Champion multiverse might also play into this?
It certainly would.
The explanation of a typical fantasy story is basically the story of star wars episode 4 instead in a medieval setting
Emoposting your ad copy is an interesting idea, I gotta say
I've tried thinking about how The Wheel of Time would fit into The Chronicles of Amber. Then I stopped trying.
Check out Michael Morcocks works he created what we know of today as Dark Fantasy with works like Elric of Melniboné, or Moongloom, or Ericose. They all share a universe together and its awesome.
My boy James discovering meaning, symbolism, and subcontext
tl;dr the Wheel of Time is a reconstruction
Im sorry fucking outro sent me
"you don't need a greater purpose to justify your existence, you just need the ability to keep going"
damn good quote james
I'll be back when I've read the books!
And I'll be here.
See you in a year
Your introduction was very accurate
Tropes are like conduits through which character, as a type of energy, flows. You see some of this in shonen manga such as Dragon Ball, and recently with Naruto and One Piece. It also shows up in Star Trek and MANY other pieces of narrative art.
I would posit that Robert Jordan crafted a kind of "prose VR" with the Wheel of Time, and that it's that close third-person POV that fills-in for a VR headset. Comparable to the last sentence in David Foster Wallace's The Pale King: "It's the ability to be immersed." Teaching readers how to channel, in a low-level way? Like most heyokas are anyway? That's been my experience at least.
You're Awesome !
That camp fire blaze ad is hilarious
we thought so too :D
Can you make a world building video on art and culture. I’m interested in adding more of it to my stories
The ads are actually enjoyable
So the narrative behind Wheel of Time was cleverly hidden class dialectics?
"There will never be a fantasy series that ends with the evil force winning and destroying the world..."
Challenge accepted.
notify us when you are done
Give the authors time. Even Wheel Of Time showed how easily evil could have won. It will take another 50 years for that massive story to be told.
Warhammer fantasy ended that way basically.
Elric of Melniboné. In the final chapter the lead character is forced to murder his best friend, kill himself and the multiverse is destroyed by Chaos Gods.
So, could the Wheel of Time be influenced by the Elric Saga?
I've read most of the Elric books, and I'm about 1/2 way through the Great Hunt, and I'm seeing a few similarities:
Rand is the Eternal Champion
The Horn of Valere is the Horn of Fate (they also do similar things, ressurecting dead heroes "death is no bar to my call")
such hegelian dialectics. very marxian historical critique
so true
@@Starrypaws64
WOT couldn't be less Hegelian
in its mythology.
Point is after 12:30
lmao the outro was the best part
I'm traumatized by wheel of time
wait. Couldn't the creator just keep making infinite worlds or just stop the dark one once?
I SEE WHAT YOU DID HERE, TULLOS!
Is that how Ishamael is pronounced? I think the stresses are on caps letters of the (I believe official) pronunciation explanation: ih-SHAH-may-EHL
Lexx actually does the , its not nessesary pessimistic but nihilistic. And weird, very weird and trashy with highly philosophical drama.
And the best musical episode in any medium ever in a theatre with an operette. Which makes sense. And technically the bad guy wins an it starts in his , but the misfit crew who are not heroes do actually are still horny, except the undead, and move on in that very nihilistic deterministic cartoonish dark world. And i dont think the bad guys ever win, but the crew is already, , its nihilistic but actually optimistic that thre will always a way forward and its worth it. Also has a song thats about the tie repeating again and again.
The series is about not heroes moving on and fighting despite not being heroes. Stan is a coward but he lived in a world where , the dark humor and , he has no reason to thing khe will ever be rewarded or a chance that it will get better, An Tev, is really horny what drives her more than wanting to be a hero, she was sheltered to be the perfect love slave wife and how is, hungry for exploring.
And an undead thats the best. and has any reason to
Its a fun series that is someho trashy and high concept with great drama..
Good video man
Something that really frustrated me about WoT is that Jordan didn't really commit to this metanarrative. He sets it up in the first 4 books but it goes nowhere. Rand never contacts all the previous /future Dragons which are also him Avatar style to have a dialogue about the nature of the pattern, nor is there ever an evil ta'veren to be an actual challenge to the characters (possible exception Demandred and he's the best villain in the series for coming close to that). The metanarrative commentary feels like just a string of funny gags like "look! in-world plot armor!" that fails to actually elevate WoT to the metanarrative level its often regarded as. What I mean by elevating it is actually making a statement about the nature of the stories we tell ourselves beyond the simple acknowledgement that tropes exist. IMO this metanarrative presence in a story as long as WoT actually hinders the story when it is not fully committed to. So many of the arcs of WoT are rendered bland or even ruined (Bel'al/ Dragon's Peace) because of the way Jordan plays around with them half-heartedly. Its like reading the Belgariad, where you're not reading a story so much as an exercise in story writing. It makes the world feel plastic. I say this out of love of many aspects of the series, The arc of Rand Al'Thor is one the greatest I've ever read. It's just always struck me as odd that Jordan clearly wanted the metanarrative element to be so central but didn't actually have anything to say about it besides..... I dunno, myths are central to culture?
aaaaaaaaand a waman... yup we nailed it boys !!!!!
I'm the cousins that keeps telling you to read but my cousins don't listen to me lol
So is s it a comment of the cycles of history, or a book series, or a genre. Hmm
That all, and it's very likely been inspired by some real life myths, especially in Hinduism I know of similar ideas, but there are myths about cyclical time in most cultures.
@@glanni The reincarnation part definitly from there. Destined fates of people i think too. Its the oldest living religion so of course its influencal..
There is a fun free webtoon kubera thats, ok its hinduist inspired but ideas there, and worth checking out, through starting slow its good psychological mystery drama mix, thats fun, and sad, and fun.
@@marocat4749 i just checked it out, and it looks really interesting. I'm probably going to try getting into it when I have the calm to read something longer running.
Devilman Crybaby has a crappy ending too, but at least the characters in Maximum Ride Forever survived.
So the Wheel of Time is part of The Dark Tower and Rand Althor is a twinner of Roland Deschain of Gilead (that was)?
Well it could sort of. Or both Roland and Rand might be an incarnation of The Eternal Champion of Moorcock stories.
17:45 so elric of melnibone
I hate when the peasant boy can destroy trained professionals that have been practicing for years, by the end of the first book after traveling for 6 days, half of which he is injured.
I love how fate/stay night flat out stole the throne of heroes from the heroes of the horn.
you're right I never really thought about the similarities there. but the story the fate series told couldn't have been more different, therefore I think the term stole isn't quite right.
@@boycefenn true true, *potentially took inspiration from
An example of the dark one actually winning: final fantasy 6
Yeah they did achieve there goal which why I need to force myself to start playing it again. My emulator keeps freaking out on me, (its actually just user incompetence) its really good so far.
Loved the IRA mention 😂😂😂
Why is his hair so cute? Lol
Can i be honest Here? I didnt like mistborn(i read only the first one) i Could guess the ending pretty easily-yes i Know that a Hard magic system Will do that And that proves that is a strong book but i dont really enjoy to feel dump instead of smart when i know what Will happen instead of figure it out along the way with the protagonist... Now about the language... It read Just like another YA book to me... Actually Mistborn was one of the reasons i know read mainly SF instead of fantasy And epic fantasy... :( cause I felt like if one of the Best books of its genera Cant make me fall In love with the tropes again i dont Know what Will. So now i am taken a "break" that has lasted for three years now....
If Anyone has any sugestions feel free to leave them Here (not a fan of long series)
There is nothing wrong with Tropes. James even stated that tropes is gonna exist in any genre, what matters is how it is executed. That's why WoT is loved because it does its own spin on existing tropes that the author knew. Stormlight Archive is the same thing. It's loved for what it has, but it plays the epic fantasy tradition very well.
2:00 what about dragons?
since im early, James, do you speak greek?
Οχι.
@@JamesTullos με πληγώννεις
Its depreciation not deprekiation
The one power is split between saidin(men) and saidar(women) the. Ale half was tainted.
I must be forgetting: what is the Narnia analogue to Mordor?
The frozen North, land of giants and witches.
A bit like ASOIAF.
Though this is only really the case in book 4.
Narnian mythology is very inconsistent.
try overlord really good
Let people enjoy it.
ok
10th view and 10th like lmao
Great video. Now pls don't ever fucking use that voice again.....
Ive seen the tropes in wot. I really don't think it does them well, they felt like crutches. To each their own.
whats wrong with your hair, are you trainsitioning to female?
I recognize that reference at the end, God I am sorry
Timmy what you doing here.
@@lizadon0740 here? what is here? what is here but a collection of discarded matter and anti-matter amongst the vast places between nowhere and everywhere.
@@PowerSkiff12 that wasn’t clever