Now before you read the title and start typing your furious comment telling me I'm an idiot, you should know the title is clickbait through and through. The TLDW (too long didn't watch) is that boxers hit harder than their hands can cope with. Not that boxing doesn't work.
It’s kind of like with anything else physical, it’s getting in that mental performance/competitive state where we can do unimaginable damage to ourselves without even realizing it or caring in the moment. Almost threw my arm off my body pitching as a teen...torn rotator cuff.
@@jinx8624 I've been around for long enough to know that people often jump to conclusions and get angry about things they otherwise wouldn't if they actually bothered to get the information.
I think you're spot on. I'm a Surgical Technician, with 49 years experience, much of which has been in orthopedics and I've seen a lot of "boxers fractures". I grew up in a family where fighting and boxing was "entertainment " especially on weekends. I was taught to hit with my last 3 knuckles, like you showed. I've never hurt my hand. An great-uncle of mine (whom I barely recall) was a logger in North Idaho. He fought Jack Dempsey in, 1927 (i think) on his attempt to retake the championship. My Uncle wasn't knocked out, but is said to comment about Jack Dempsey , that his punch felt like getting kicked by a horse. I've no problem following Jack's advice.
As an aspiring Professional Boxer, I cross train in traditional English Bare Knuckle Pugilism for this exact reason! Outside hard sparring, I train entirely without gloves or wraps and practice both vertical and modern straight punching and aiming for the body, chest and neck as people duck and you don't want to connect with the hard bones of the upper skull. I've also invested heavily in infighting, grappling, and my skills at parries and barring the punches to ensure accurate safe punching and control should I ever need to use my hands in self defense! I have read Dempsey, Fitzsimmons, Mendoza's, and many other books on the subject of bare knuckle punching, and they are indeed separate martial arts!
Could you recommend some books to read and or videos to watch about this topic?? I'm really interested but would like some direction for what to look into
I agree... to an extent. The pressures of competition with handwraps and gloves mean that the technique used by most boxers these days are pretty poorly suited to bare-knuckle use, but I've noticed that a number of more old school boxing instructors will focus on hand position when punching - using the karate style "first two knuckles" approach. Luis Monda aka Sinister, who was taught by Mike McCallum has a whole video about how to make a fist and how certain strikes are supposed to land, for example, and he emphasizes the two main knuckles. Alexey Frolov from Russia similarly is very insistent upon hand alignment akin to that used in bareknuckle arts like karate. The knowledge is out there and remains, but it's usually only the old school style teachers who emphasize it.
Thank you for mentioning Alexey Frovol. Watched all of his videos and as you said he goes really deeply into hand and arm positioning for a correct punch, which is also great for boxing with gloves actually. I certainly have less injuries now after correcting this
Forther more the punch lands harder and is more effective when thrown correct and precise, which IS taught in boxing though. (Depends on the trainer oc)
Spot on. I wish MMA never introduced gloves and wraps. We would have an even better understanding of what works and doesn’t. We would also see a development in open hand strikes, similar to the old school Gracie method of slapping to help sink in chokes. The boxing style of the Diaz brothers is likely the most similar to old bare knuckle of any modern fighter today. Though the flaws you mentioned still present themselves in their style, just to a lesser degree.
Elbows would be even more utilized, and as I mentioned open hand techniques would be explored. Similar but different, in oneFC and back in pride we saw a lot more jiu jitsu style ground defense. With soccer kicks and grounded knees to the head, it’s alot more risky to turtle and stand up in a folk style wrestling method. It much safer to have you legs between you and the opponent… if your on bottom and the can soccer kick you.
I apologize all my comments on your videos ramble on lol. Do you think in bare knuckle mma there would be more grappling, and more thai clinch work. Right now unified rules still seem to favor a wrestler boxer style. In my opinion.
Of course hand injuries when fighting bare knuckle are common, doesn’t mean that in a fight Terrence Crawford wouldn’t knock anyone out and risk hand injury
Totally agree, especially about Dempsey having the best description of "proper" punching. I tried to remember it when I was younger but still have a funky looking pinky on one hand. One thing I've always hated is with a lot of modern gloves it's basically impossible to make a proper fist and the thumbs just sticking out by itself. If you punch without them it's all too easy to hit without a properly rolled and tightened fist....hence the funky pinky 🙄
I remember I read somewhere that old gloves don't really stitch the thumb like in modern boxing but so many fighters used it poke their well padded thumbs into the other guy's eye while punching, the gloves became like we know today
Karate punching with some wing Chun punching can rectify these issues if you slowly and gradually train bare knuckle properly you can overcome many of these issues but still remain careful and only punch with maximum power when the situation gives you the advantage also many boxers who are beginners fail to put there entire bodyweight into the punch when using power punching and when shadowboxing only punch with shoulders and don't move entire body as one unit which should be done when shadow boxing In the ring an average boxer can take me on with gloves and wraps bare knuckle I can easily knock them out because I am any better I am just used to fighting mare knuckle and used to getting punched bare knuckle and getting kicked barefoot Modern boxing needs to go beyond mere gloves and wraps boxing and should be also taught bare knuckle style along with techniques from other sports and martial arts to improve as boxers and be able to survive a street fight if that unfortunately happens
We used a vertical punch in karate and I also use it in my boxing. Never had an injury punching hard when focusing on structure and accuracy. Less precise or glancing blows tend to compromise the structure and hurt the hand more.
I absolutely agree. When I did Boxing it took me about a year to unlearn how used to punch, but the problem is while I became quicker the striking was too ecliptic & relaxed, which caused me injuries even while gloved & wrapped. Now that I'm no longer competing I'm redeveloping the traditional punching mechanics I learned from doing pugilism from Carl Cestari in NJ, Kyokushin from Tiger Schulmann, Goju Ryu from Buddy Amato along with the conditioning drills from the other Asian martial arts I learned over the years. Five Ancestors & Hung Gar have good conditioning routines too.
@@EnglishMartialArts I saw a bizarre recipe for literally pickling your hands with a brine and laudanum solution, I think it was in Bart J Doran or Edmund price. Add some commentary on that in your hand conditioning video
When it comes to hand protection the tool I have recently found out to be quite useful is the traditional Makiwara. Punching it barehanded requires much needed precision, alignment and force management (relax and tensing) it makes a perfect tool for testing out the durability of your instrument. It also helps to think of gloves and wraps as a separate category of weapon, they are not just there for protection alone. Regarding hand configurations for bare knuckle striking, I have found the followings to be of great use for the context: palm strike, vertical palm strike with outside edge of the hand, Slavic Hook (vertical hook hurts the fingers, horizontal hook hurts the thumb) - although the mechanism of delivery is more complicated, and finally the Wrist hook (when you keep your wrist flexed while performing the motion). Hammer fist is a honorable mention but I believe it’s better suited for GnP like normal palm strike. Would love to see a video from you which goes into deeper depth regarding this topic. Cheers!
My first martial art was karate, and I was stunned to find out people thought you couldn't punch bags bare handed until I realized they wear gloves when they do bag work! Hitting stuff with your bare hands or just light gloves does wonders for conditioning.
Respect for you man. You called gloves and wraps by weapons and I couldn't agree more. About the makiwara is the best way to develop basic skills and evolve
@@B..B. Not only the Makiwara. Pushups on the index and middle finger knuckles are helful, too. You can even lift them up and do a little punch into the ground on the downswing. Great for force control and hardening of the knuckles.
That's why I like to take gloves off while hitting the bag. It forces you to pay attention to alignment 🙂 if you are worried about punching bareknuckle, use palm strikes.
Your video was recommended on my feed. As a boxer, I immediately knew you would mention the powerline and the differences between old school pugilist and modern boxers. Amazing video.
I’ve learned regular punching in Muay Thai, but that same teacher also teaches hapkido and taught us if you ever get caught in the street turn it into a vertical punch.
I think learning boxing techniques is very important modern fighting. Learning the techniques properly you can get your strikes fairly accurate while maximizing power. Of course it definitely risks breaking you hand but training on the the heavy bag bare knuckle while using boxing techniques I find is a good way to condition the hands and also get a feel for how hard to throw your punch when the gloves are off.
i've been doing it for a year, and I punch really hard. I found the first 2 knuckles are the strongest, so i'm guessing i unconsiouly learned how to hit without breaking knuckles idk. Only the last 2 get sore sometimes
Absolutely! As you notice in old pugilism pictures, even some Pugilists went as far as supinating their fists aside from the standard vertical fist so that their knuckles would guarantee to hit the lower part of the skull even when the opponent's head was tucked down to minimize risk of knuckle fracture whist still be able to put their whole body weight and kinetic energy into the punch. Quite similar to the Chinese Wing Chun and perhaps it even derived most of its techniques from old school Pugilism such as its stance and gap closing techniques after exchanges with the English sailors since the former style was invented around the 18th century.
There's a few people who suspect Wing Chun is actually based on classical pugilism. I doubt anyone would be able to verify it but personally I think it is probably true.
Big fallacy introduced at 6:16. "The more power used, the less accurate they run the risk of being". Well, no. Boxers train to place punches exactly where they want to, and power is not synonymous with being inaccurate. Some people can use a great deal of power with a great deal of accuracy. This is where the logic of the video falls apart.
Great video as always. For what my experience is worth, I agree. I had to take a break from boxing a few years back and decided that, since I was at most going to train on my own, the best thing I could do was to study this little book called “championship fighting” and maybe base my training on it, boy was I in for a revelation. Turns out I didn’t know what “explosive” meant at all, also it wasn’t until I tried to hit the bag glove-free that i realized how nuanced punching really is, cut to a few years later and I’m stil trying to figure it out. But one question I find more interesting than “can boxers really punch” is if it is possible to use, with at least an adequate amount of efficacy, old school punching in modern competition, and get the proverbial “best of both worlds”. Fight team.
I started Karate (Wado Ryu) when I was 13, back in the hey day of 1973, and striking conditioning was a key part of what was expected of everyone. I still hit a heavy bag without gloves, use dried peas for finger and fist conditioning, kick walls/trees, condition my forearms and can finger jab a leather bag full of metal shot 000s times with force. I know ex boxers who have no knuckles left after fighting outside of the gym due to no protection and no hand conditioning. Old school jabbing, no twisting of the arm and using the 2nd knuckle as the striking point, works extremely well when aimed at the eye socket. Only an idiot aims for the jaw with no protection on the hands, I once had a tooth lodged in my knuckle from doing it.
This is just the reason why I always found Pancrase so interesting, that they typically used the palm heel in both jabbing and swinging motions due to it having a stronger connection nearer the wrist. If you ever listen to Bas Rutten talking about knocking people out, he would often be using the side of his forearm to torque their head rather than trying to generate power through his hand. Same reason I always liked doing Muay Thai, there's nothing like a good elbow.
Yeah I think Baz is on record as saying that he preferred the palm strike because of alignment through the hand/forearm for energy transfer and lowered chance of damage to the fingers when striking without pretty much any gloves or padding. He sure demonstrated that one can generate knockout power with that method also.
Mere speculation here, but the people who did Pankration were warriors whose main method of combat was with hand held weapons. I think hand injuries resulting from unarmed fighting might have been regarded as an unacceptable risk to a warrior's future functioning. So while Pankration was used as a tool to train indispensable close quarters striking, throwing and ground fighting that would have been vital to know in war, busting up your hands was not worth it for easy knock outs on the gymnasion sands. Also, in war most warriors wore bronze helmets and bronze or leather/padded torso armour, further making training in punching with close fists a kind of useless skills when seen in the broader context of the physical fostering of warrior skills in ancient Greece.
It's funny that almost all strikes in martial arts are performed with a joint. I guess the shin kick is a good counterexample, but even there you're risking your foot bones and toes if you miss. I wonder what combat sports and combat itself would look like if humans had natural weapons like claws anywhere on the body.
One thing that I was taught is that a lot of the time people don’t release the energy properly in a punch. People try to punch through their opponents instead of releasing the energy of the punch onto them and when you release the energy onto them you feel nothing in your hands. This is also key with bone alignment making sure that the hand and arm are one connected bone making it powerful and stable
Absolutely fascinating information on the medical theory behind hand wraps. Genuinely appreciated that historical walk through from you! Western Boxing is one of the most dangerous sports in the world. 8-12 oz. Gloves means more surface area to hit the target, which means more constant blows of head trauma. In 2019 we lost Maxime Dadashev. R.I.P.
The most complete bare handed fighting style is Bas Rutten's Palm strikes, Bas preferred grappling as opposed to his striking to get more ground experience. Which is why he didn't utilize it in most of his fights. For the people who say it's an ineffective striking tool, please refer to Bas Rutten vs Kengo Watanabe, it's the only recorded fight that demonstrates palm striking in a brawl and gross motor scenario. Having a boxer incorporating his footwork, explosiveness, and power combined with perfect palm strike placement is what I consider the perfect bare handed style.
Icy Mike from hard2hurt did a video some time ago, where he argued that if you want to harden your fists for real life/ street fight/bare knuckle punching - you should train with gloves and wraps most of the time, because that way you practice technique and precision. And, from time to time - you punch with bare hand, just to be sure you are doing it right. So I guess you two agree on this topic =) Enjoyed the video! Thanks!
Yup, the gloves should be used like how it was used years ago, as a training tool to minimize damage from training, not something that damaged your fighting ability when push comes to shove
@@EnglishMartialArts I conditioned my knuckles using Wolff’s law and my knuckles were are solid, hence winning power breaking at the world championships in South Korea, however, you are sooooooo correct that this comes at a heavy price. My hands are a mess now and hurt a lot on cold days, I’m only 43 and envisage a very painful later life haha
IcyMike is not someone I would listen to regarding fighting, and especially not streetfighting. That's just a general rule a thumb. But furthermore, if this is what he suggested, then he's absolutely incorrect. That is NOT the way you want to go about it and ironically what you should be doing is literally the OPPOSITE of what IcyMike allegedly said lol. Wearing hand wraps + gloves, or just wearing one of the other, you can not even form the correct fists/ hand positions that you need, for punching hard surfaces without handwraps/ gloves. So if you practice your hand strikes the majority of the time wearing GLOVES/ HAND WRAPS, and your goal is to be effective WITHOUT gloves/ handwraps.........you're killing yourself. From a football standpoint, practice during the week how you want to play in the game on sunday! If you only play flag football during the week, then on Sunday it's full contact.....do you REALLY think you'll be even remotely effective on Sunday ? lol. Of course not. Wearing handwraps and gloves even effects the posture and positioning of your hands and arms, regarding how you're throwing the punch, and it HIDES a lot of the details that show if you're actually throwing the punch correctly or not. So this again stops you from effectively learning. This is just a brief intro in response. If you want the real and full details, I'm not sharing them here. You'll have to contact me on instagram. Good luck and God bless.
I would say the best thing for a boxer to do to retain the power and confidence in striking with his hands is to use his palms. Hooks will turn into slaps and uppercuts wouldn't really exist, but it would take less adjusting for a boxer than punching with bare knuckles.
I totally agree, I've seen dozens of guys hurting their hands in the gym punching without gloves and wraps, I personally like to also strengthen my wrist and knuckles so occasionally I hit bare handed, I can go as far as a full force liver punch without hurting my hand (where the bag is the tightest, feels like hitting a brick wall) but I only do it as often as once a month or so and I don't suggest to anyone trying it, it is simply not worth it, and if you are in a street fight rather try to use some elbow shots, grab the head and choke or knees to the face, if you only know boxing try to hit the 1 - 2 and stun him a hit then I'd still try some elbows or such, even if you fight with someone in the street and win a fracture to your palm is a nasty thing, on the other hand your elbow is godly.
Couldn’t agree more. I teach cardio boxing and train boxing because it’s good for head movement/movement in general, and overall cardio. When I teach a monthly self defense class, it’s always vertical fist to soft areas and palm hands to hard areas. FIGHT TEAM!
@@ynghuch like Bas Rutten said, you're not using the palm like the name suggested. You use the heel of the hand. And yes, they're not as powerful as a closed fist but they create opportunity for grabs such as wrist control when you palm strike a high shell guard, collar tie if you palm strike/slap the face or a simple shove back could get you the underhook
@@micahboswell4000 yup, just like Jack Dempsey wrote. The only reason should you do a light lead "punch" (this is the part where he talked about boxing with big gloves) is to push the forehead back, expose the chin so you could nail in that no.2 punch
Modern boxing is a weapon art. They're spongy weapons that lessen the abrupt onset of impact on giver and receiver, but still weapons. Taking the weapons away pulls the rug out from under the foundational assumptions of the art. It's only reasonable. As someone with two dropped pinkie knuckles from martial art mishaps during a mis-spent middle-age, I can see how punching a randomly moving bowling ball with teeth might less than ideal.
This is why 1st generation English boxing is my favorite striking martial art. It was very effective and brutal with many prize fighters unfortunately dying in matches. This is why 2nd gen and 3rd gen (modern sport boxing) boxing came about. To make it safer as a sport. They used palm strikes against the head and it seems like I remember reading that they did use punches for the soft areas like the abs and obliques. They used other strikes too because the goal was to use whatever was effective. It would be fascinating to hear your perspective on 1st gen English boxing. I was recommended this channel from Matt Easton on a video on his Schola Gladiatoria channel.
Personally I think a beauty in boxing is the explosiveness of the knockouts and the pursuit of power, while accuracy and precision can still be a major focus. With bare knuckle there’s only so much power you can give before risk of injury creeps in, so accuracy and precision seems far more important, while I think modern boxing gives a better balance. Just my thoughts.
I was taught in wing chun to either punch with a vertical fist using the bottom knuckles pointing out, or palm strike, or side palm strike. Its purpose is to prepare for real life self defence situations with no gloves.
I agree, I already knew all of this, I suffer looking at hooks 90% of the time. I practice mostly bareknuckle, I can punch the bag full force and I've never hurt my wrist. edit: I am also translating Dempsey's book to Spanish, I don't know if you or anyone else is interested on that, but let me know if you are.
@@EnglishMartialArts In the UK copyright would run for 70 years from Dec 31st of the year Dempsey died. E.g. Conan Doyle died in 1930, copyright in Holmes ran out in 2000, cue sudden flurry of Holmes films a few years after....
@@EnglishMartialArts It is public domain, I made sure of that. It's free and legal on the internet. I think the other book he did isn't yet (he also trained in catch wrestling and was comissioned a fight book by the national guard)
You have a good argument, but the main problem with it is that the generality can easily be used against it, thus making it void [Example: Since Tak Woon Doe use special shoes and leg guards and shifted movements around the develop of their armor, the practitioners of the Art can't kick]. The accepting of that is absurd, but the argument can still be valid if formed with a more specific body. Again the issue with what you are saying is that it's too general. To present a counter argument is strength training. You can strengthen the toughness of your hand bones and muscle. This was known since the ancient days of the Eastern Arts and I am sure the Western Pancreatic fighters knew about it too. In the early days of Boxing, (even tho' we still know very little) we know they didn't use gloves-- so there have to be a method or training early Boxers used to avoid such an injury. My point is with the lack of overwhelming allocution from the treaties we do have; this is proof that hand injuries weren't as common as we think they were. Example would be wrestling (Sorry if everything always returns to wrestling with me)-- As wrestlers we know that breaking your neck is a real thing and can happen, but we aren't repeatedly told "don't break your nek, don't break your neck", because our training is there to stop that from happening. So, we place a note on that injury-- we don't obsess over it, but we treat it as a precaution. To finish I wouldn't say "Boxers can't punch" but rather "Are the two [old and new] philosophies trying to out punch the other (or do they need to)?
Hmm, while what you're saying holds truth to some extent, I do feel like one crucial part of the context is missing: how often do you need to punch bare-handed? If it's part of your discipline and have to do that on a daily basis then sure I wholly agree that punching like a boxer will most likely quickly lead to self-injuries. But outside of that? For most people I feel the only realistic context in which bare-handed punching happens would be self-defense, in which case I would consider a faster incapacitation of the opposition a good trade-off even if it comes with the possibility of self-injury. In the middle of a fight you'd probably ignore the pain anyway and as far as I'm concerned, I'm not living in a place where I have to punch people (I mean outside of my boxing classes haha) every other day, so I'd much rather not take any chance with the situation at hand knowing that there'll be plenty of time to recover after that.
You could still spar as if your are bare handed for self defense by wearing just Boxing gloves without wrapping your wrists at all. Jack Broughton in the 1750s invented the Boxing gloves for the sole reason of eliminating cuts and scrapes sustained from bare knuckle sparring both for prizefighting and self-defense, especially at the request of his aristocratic patrons. This was implemented without wrapping the wrists at all. Until the Queensbury Rules, the fist alignment and bare knuckle punching techniques never really changed at all without the boxing wraps and the gloves were made primarily to prevent cuts to the sparring partner, not to protect the knuckles from fracturing.
@@chaxologist2024 My point was that I am not training for self-defense, I'm training for boxing haha Boxing is a daily part of my life. Fighting off people in the street? Luckily not so much. I'm training for what matters to me. Now, while I don't train for it, saying that I "can't throw a punch" bare-handed is quite the statement, I've already granted that it might get me injured but as long as it gets the job done that's a small price to pay. I'd much rather focus my training solely on improving in modern boxing while hoping I'll never have to use the art outside of the ring, than having part of it be dedicated to learning how to properly punch without wraps or gloves.
@@gauvainhawk3380 Sounds reasonable. You stick to your niche. What he was primarily implying was that modern Boxers can't optimally punch for a street fight/self-defense situations and old school prizefighting before the Queensbury Rules.
@@chaxologist2024 Exactly, I understood that was the message of the video and I do agree with it which is why I can comment while staying level-headed. It's just that the title fails to convey that and might appear as provocative to someone not familiar with this channel which doesn't help setting the right mindset for listening.
Hook is probably lower risk. The forehead is the part most people break their hands on. Not saying you should, but it's probably less likely to end up with a broken hand than a straight cross
Boxers usually get accurate enough to target the cheekbones. I've seen it in videos, and once in person. It was a one-sided fight between teenagers, one of them had a few years of training.
100% Agree. If not using wraps the chance for breakage of the hand/wrist is massive. In Wing Chun they use the bottom three knuckles as you described, combined with open hand techniques in order to protect the hand from being broken. Good video! Take a look of the stances and position of the hands of the old school bare knuckle boxers, completely different. I have seen many breaks for friends of mine not wearing wraps...
I definitely understand the very valid points you've made here. The notion that a boxer can't punch is ridiculous however. Gloves and hand wraps have EVOLVED the ways in which you can strike but saying that professional face and body punchers aren't precise and technical is absurd. Big gloves definitely allow more margins for error for the safety of your hand if you aren't precise with your shots, but boxers definitely know how to punch.
I'm really happy that you pointed out that the "BKB" of today isn't bareknuckle. I've been saying that since day one, and you nailed my thoughts right on the head when you said that's why there's so many standard boxing techniques in this new "BKB". I've taken the time to research the history of bareknuckle boxing and I've come to have such an appreciation for it. I think it is superior to Queensbury rule boxing.
@@ancientdarkness3102 it's not bareknuckle because they wrap their wrists with hand wraps. The knuckles are exposed,but the wrist is supported by an artifice; ergo not BARE knuckle. Bare means bare,it means no enhancements or equipment on the hand at all. The second reason it's not bareknuckle is because of the techniques the fighters are using these days. They are fighting like Queensbury boxers without gloves on: same form same techniques. BKB techniques are so much different and require a different nuance to understand. I would highly suggest researching the differences between bareknuckle and Queensbury glove techniques. It is with this that i say todays BKB is not true bkb,they do not honor the style,techniques,or traditions of bkb.
@@jmgonzales7701 i think it is possible because Queensbury rules ruined boxing. I used to love it until i researched bkb and decided bkb is ultimately superior. There are no gloves in the streets.
@@ForProfit-x100 will look closer to BKB. lol i wonder if its basically a take on old style boxing i wonder if they will add in some kicks, and grabs that makes it to a brawl? because you know old pugalist style boxing is basically more of a brawl than just using hands.
Ive been boxing for 8 years now, trained Muay Thai(Brazilian Thai boxing/kickboxing version…more kicks) for 5 and practiced taekwondo from childhood(traditional not Olympic) and I’ve been practicing traditional karate for 2-3 years now when it comes to striking styles I practiced in a serious and consistent manner, the information in this video in my humble opinion is absolutely true and I don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been said: most people remember that boxers have the hardest hitting punches in overall striking sports but forget that the gloves are there to protect the hands which allows for overwhelmingly powerful strikes given the rotation of the hip which any other bare knuckle martial artist of any striking style technically can mechanically due for sure but the resulting impact would result in an injured or even broken hand as a mechanical structure of a strike in the boxing styles has in mind that the gloves will protect the fist, karatekas punch in a way where the strength of the strike suffers the least as possible without resulting in injury to the hand or a compromise in speed which is why they’re mechanically weaker but have less variation when it comes to the distance of the strike as a karate punch from a full range of motion such as closing the gap between you and your opponent and striking or a karate punch from a very “in your opponents face” situation feel somewhat mechanically the same for the striker and the one who gets hit as traditional karate punches don’t come from the hip but from muscle contraction in a well measured way as to not hit yourself not to mention that this is why karatekas and other bare handed styles: understanding that the hand would eventually break if the striking is employed too often even if perfectly, often practice some sort of hand calousing or conditioning exercise innate to the martial art, this can be seen in traditional karate stules(goju-ryu(my style) ,shorin,uechi-ryu for example) and in traditional but functional kungfu styles(shaolin, Baijiquan,iron fist for example) where exercises such as hitting boards of wood(makiwara) or constantly doing closed fist push ups and using your hands to hit sand and rocks or conditioning your hands through calousing them in general are so employed: they are an extra way to guarantee your hand can perform constant,controlled but stressful(to the hand) bare knuckle strikes if necessary be without getting injured or at least by diminishing the injury caused, now my personal opinion as always: pugilism and boxing are very much effective and pressure tested styles, boxers hit the hardest and practicing boxing in a traditional boxing gym is by far one of my most enjoyable workouts(2 times a week in the same day I practice karate as of rn as sadly my other days are currently preoccupied with Brazilian jiu jitsu practice) and I recommend boxing to anyone who wishes to be stronger and learn how to throw a punch, however for bare knuckle confrontations certain styles of traditional bare handed martial arts would be circumstancially prefered over traditional boxing due to their specialized bare hand conditioning and techniques focused on the idea you wouldn’t have gloves around you in a real confrontation, that being said I think that while striking is certainly very much a necessary part of sportsmanship and self defense in a real street fight or self defense scenario wrestling and grappling as well as the use of weapons and having previous training with them(firearms, bladed weapons and contusion weapons off course) would be more important then to have a boxing vs bare knuckle martial art choice as a broader range of styles and skills betters your chances overall.
@@beelzebootthecanadiandevil9600 yes and my lack of grammar comes from english not being my first language AND from me not knowing/realizing how long the comment was going to be, therefore i forgot to use paragraphs, quite an honest mistake.
You’re so right. Precision is under rated and boxer punching so effective in the ring can create some bad habits when neither gloves or wraps are used. I’m guessing like myself you’d prefer bare knuckle to do away with wraps. I’d go one step further and encourage palm strikes, elbows, sweeps and takedowns. Wouldn’t it be create to resurrect a sport which blended grappling with arm strikes where the fight was scored by knockdowns rather than knockouts.
I completely agree. I will add if I may, that I find it something between hilarious and tragic that there are instructors in self-defense schools teaching not to punch with a bare knuckles in a fight (but to use the palm, like that can't get hurt, especially at the wrist and fingers...), instead of preparing their students for it. They are removing the basic fighting tool of all ages for no reason! Boxer's fractures are actually rare among streetfighters and martial artists; the second even condition their knuckles, wrists, through using the bag and knuckle pushups and weights. In my more than three decades in the arts, I have never come across anyone hurting their hands in a class, in a match or in a street fight. Having said that, boxers indeed can't punch properly without gloves, they don't understand how. Look at them when they shadow box without wraps, WHAT A SHAM, what lack of alignment, their punches look like a white belts, it's like their punches are hanging off their wrist; no wonder it's more possible for their hands to get hurt in a street fight, but the reason that most still don't, is because of adrenaline and hyperfocusing to aim a clear shot with power behind their strikes and of course because a punched head is not a wall, but moves out of the way once punched.
Look at how boxers mess up their hands when they get in 'street' or press conference altercations: Larry Holmes messed up his hands so bad after punching Trevor Berbick that he jumped off a car roof and kicked Berbick in the chest with both feet; Mike Tyson broke his hands, several times, in street fights; David Haye, even with a beer bottle in his hands, managed to break a toe punching Derek Chisora... :D
Very good video, though I believe it does a slight disservice to the great power punchers of boxing since their primary attribute was their ability to accurately hit prominent knockout points and land with the big knuckles thus doing maximum damage. New gloves are a real problem and lazy technique is actively encouraged on pads and bags now. Nobody worries about how their hand is landing because the gloves look pretty and make a loud noise. Nice one Oz 👍🏻
I've practiced martial arts and studied fighting physics for almost 38 years now. "How to actually throw a punch" has been a major focus of mine, both in improving my own skills and in teaching others. This video? Not wrong. Not at all. There are techniques for striking when you have no wraps and no gloves, thick throughout all martial arts - until you get into MMA and boxing, where there are virtually no skills taught. Those martial arts absolutely rely on hand protections, and they do not throw realistic punches. While there are people who have enough of a pain tolerance that they can break their hand mid-fight and not become utterly helpless... most humans wilt under that kind of pain, even with a massive amount of adrenaline rocketing through their veins. We are not built to fight on after breaking our hand. And it is BEYOND STUPID to learn a way of self-defense that breaks your own hand, then asks you to continue punching. Dirty boxing teaches to strike hard areas with the palm, rather than the knuckles. It helps, if you are a boxer with heavy hands and don't want to unlearn your sport entirely. The main issue with fighting this way is that someone faster than you can and will grab your fingers - breaking them easily, or using them to control you. Fists are fists for a reason. But I don't disapprove of palm strikes, as long as you keep your hands closed between strikes. Wing Chun teaches to punch with all four knuckles to distribute force evenly in the hand, and it generally avoids hard punches or strikes to hard targets. This is... OK. In the right context (someone trying to grab you to force a fight you are trying to back out of), Wing Chun's method is effective to stun an attacker with a barrage of hits that are meant more to daze than injure. I prefer the "spear" method of punching. You punch with one knuckle; your pointer finger. That small area being the only point of contact means that you don't have to punch very hard to make your punch effective, so you protect your hand well. That knuckle sinks like a spear stabbing the target. You can hit the eye, the teeth, the jaw, the solar plexus, the chest... pretty much anywhere, safely. I used to practice how hard I could punch without hurting myself by striking brick walls. Done correctly, you don't even scrape up your knuckles let alone injure your hands. People laugh when I say that you can drop someone by jabbing them with two fingers. But I've done it, multiple times. Precision, and a small point of contact, is much more devastating than a heavy punch where you make contact with multiple knuckles. The average human can take more than 30 solid punches to the head before going down. But a well placed precision strike will sometimes drop someone in single strike. But it's not taught anymore... honestly I understand why. Most people should not have that kind of knowledge, as they will misuse it.
@@michaw2209 I jammed my thumb once in high school while playing basketball. I've broken two toes - once against my sister's heel while playing tag, and once by catching it just wrong against a table leg. I have never broken/jammed a finger. What I have done is jab someone in the throat, which caused them to choke for several minutes as they struggled to breathe let alone stand. What I have done is uppercut someone's diaphragm muscle (solar plexus) with two fingers, then hook their ribs there with those fingers and throw them to the ground. What I have done is violently thrust two fingers into someone under their jaw on one side, where there is a vulnerable nerve - that one got me out of a grappling bind, after which I got control of them and sent them sprawling into a stacked pile of bricks. Precision. You are an idiot to jab your fingers against hard bone, and should never attempt it. That is what punches and palm strikes are for.
@@michaw2209 I will offer this advice to you, or anyone thinking to finger jab with any amount of real force. It isn't typically two straightened fingers being thrown like a jab - that really only works against the soft front of the throat, or into the eye socket if you are 100% sure you won't miss and hit skullbone. Typically what you are doing is something akin to a "crane" hand shape from kung-fu(gung-fu). Your pinky and ring fingers are bent, and out of the way. Each joint of your pointer and middle fingers are barely bent, as to not bend the wrong way under stress and jam/dislocate. Your middle finger joints should be more bent than in your pointer finger, so that the two end joints are side by side The point of your thumb presses hard against the side/front of your pointer finger. This position pinches the last joint of your pointer finger between your middle finger and thumb. The last digit of your pointer finger is the actual weapon. Everything else is just to drive it in. Small contact area + precision + speed = penetration. The target's body is a muscle shell with very vulnerable points between and behind those muscles. Some of them will do damage, others merely hurt and leave a nasty deep bruise later. But even just a finger thrust to the interior bicep or face will hurt enough to stun anyone who doesn't have an exceptional pain tolerance. And since you don't have to land a hard strike, these are strikes you can execute from a grappling or wrestling situation. You can't rely on any one strike working, but you can just keep using them (as well as other techniques) and something will. This is how you fight if you aren't the bigger stronger younger person. You do more with less, to equalize things as best you can.
Definitely an issue with boxing punches. I knew about this before but this was definitely the best description I've seen of what makes boxing punches dangerous without handwraps and gloves!
I totally agree with this, and that is why SKOBAR, which is one of the few Russian folk styles that have not been reconstructed and has a direct lineage, uses open hand techniques when they are not using gloves.
Great video and science! In Taekwondo we train to punch with the the knuckles of the pointer and middle fingers. These two knuckles align with the radius which helps to reinforce and brace for the punch. There a couple of other critical elements to Taekwondo punching that makes it effective. 1. Conditioning - we perform fist push-ups on a hard surface to condition those two knuckles and develop wrist strength. It’s important that this is done on hard floors. Without this conditioning even with the ability to punch correctly your knuckles will suffer injury. Only through many thousands of repetitions over months and years can the fists be conditioned to strike like this without injury. The fists become powerful enough to break bone but not suffer damage but again this must be trained rigorously for a long time. While some styles practice striking hard objects the fist push-up is all you really need. This is a safe way to control the intensity of pain as opposed to striking a hard object for training which can damage the joints. 2. Heavy bag work. As you mention precision should be focused on first and foremost so as not to hurt your wrist or hands when striking the heavy bag without the support of wraps or gloves. You can’t go wild on it or you’ll tweak something. Heavy bag training is also the preferred method for kicking conditioning in TKD aside from actual sparring . Anyway hope this insight into traditional Taekwondo helps someone improve their punching and fist strength. There are some more details than this to improve punching safety for self defense.
@@EnglishMartialArts Yes, while all the kicks and sparring methodology already existed within Korean culture because of Taekkyon (the popular folk martial art from Korea) the training of traditional punches, low stances, other strikes and blocks, came from their study of Karate in Japan during the 1940s. While these men only trained Karate for a few years (not long enough to master it) they learned some key principles from Karate and used them in what would become known as Taekwondo in the 1950s.
I've been in lengthly comment battles on various threads on this subject and you have perfectly encapsulated my view point. Dempsey's Championship fighting is a great source of information from someone who knew punching. I think in modern times hand conditioning is something that has fallen out of favor. My family had a lot of bare knuckle fighting experience and I was started off punching buckets of wet sand at a very early age to form the fist and thicken the skin on the knuckles. A lot of old school boxing training such as chopping logs not only strengthened the shoulders but also strengthened the grip allowing the hand bones to be better supported but also accustomed the body structure to the recoil energy from powerful strikes. In my experience the trick to hand conditioning is to build up slowly to avoid injury. Out of the different styles I've trained with Systema have the best methods for learning to hit hard without wraps or gloves. Respect to all.
The problem with conditioning hands in the way you do it, is in our day and age most cannot. Why not? We need fit hands to use a lot of tech, esp. the computer. Most our lives now is internet via the keyboard and email, other than text of course. So if you end up with busted hands you cannot make a living. This is also a problem with carpal tunnel syndrome where you get this from too much time on the pc, either typing or using the mouse or playing too many games. The human body is not designed to do too many micro clicks. Back to hand conditoning, that kind of stuff was ok if one was a labourer but not in our time or even if you were skilled worker back in the day.
@@Mulberry2000 I work in the tech industry and as you say spend a lot of time in front of the keyboard, I also play musical instruments which requires manual dexterity. I have not found hand conditioning to be in anyway detrimental to these things. In fact hand conditioning along with muscle and tendon stretching is beneficial to hand health. The key thing is to build up slowly and don't "bust up" your hands... any exercise that damages the body be it conditioning or stretching is either wrong or being done incorrectly. You need to listen to your body and build up slowly. Good conditioning actually improves blood flow and contributes to healthy hands. Same thing as Iron Body training. If you are practicing Martial arts you need to condition your body to both give and receive strikes. You don't want to experience taking a hard shot for the first time in a street or bar confrontation. Likewise you need to understand how to strike and condition the striking areas and supporting structure to deal with the forces if you want to avoid injury. I think that the real problem is that the modern lifestyle is unhealthy and leading to many health problems and leads to a weakened body such as repetitive strain injuries, Maybe people need to change their life styles to have more variety? Respect to all.
I've seen a dozen videos of boxers getting into streetfights, they are very effective at delivering a quick ko, but their hands often get injured/break.
What about conditioning for bone density and exercises used to strengthen ligaments? Would like to get to the bottom of those 2 things especially anything that has some science behind it.
Yeah I agree with you, I came to the same conclusion when I was researching pugilism through Mendoza etc. For my pugilism fighting manual I have written. The combination of wraps and gloves turn the fist nearly into a solid mass. The fighters are able to hit harder than their own bones would ever be able to take.
One of the best videos I've seen on RUclips recently. As an amateur boxer I'd agree... Lost count of how many mates have wrecked their hands in street fights. Boxers have to pull their punches in the street in order not to break them. Still rate it as one of the most effective martial arts for the street though.
Im just a guy who has some Karate knowledge and skill passed down to me from my father and as much as I watch mutiple different martial arts youtube channels I was lucky enough to reconnect with some guys who boxed and talk and share some knowledge back and forth with them. Between that reading about boxing in books as well karate or any kind of barelnuckle striking. I completley agree with you. Id been wanting to talk about this a while. Yet it does me good many times when I see yputube martial arts channels talking about stuff ive discoverd realized or have been thinking about. The only thing I add on more to mine is I believe the boxers hardest punches besides maybe the hook or possibly uppercut are pushing punches. An extrmley driving forward motion where they have to compress the soft surface of the enoughcon there target where it does the most damage to the head causing it to go back or theyre brain move inside. Bareknuckle horizontal fist with a tilt down of the wrist to align your two knuckles will penetrate a little after surface contact and do more damage in smaller areas if thrown accuratley. When I punch bareknuckle personally I try land more on my knuckles less on my fingers. Different karate styles or people may teach or choose to do it a different way but thats how I do it. Mi hael jai white did a decent vid on how using point sparring quick hits can be like jabbing some one withca blade especially if you squeeze and tighten on impact after starting loose.
i conditioned my fists by punching every hard object i come by. It results in really strange behavior, but also in the feeling that my fists are now much stiffer and more like a sledgehammer
Always seemed like my karate instructor from my teen years knew what he was talking about. That said I certainly don't want to get into a fist fight with a boxer haha. Good stuff as usual, FIGHT TEAM!
@@dalanwanbdiska6542 To be honest I would pick a competent boxer (or any combat sports athlete/martial artist trained in a style with active resistance and live sparring/competition) over a self-proclaimed "streetfighter", experienced or otherwise. On its own its a fairly meaningless term that's hard to quantify. There are some naturally talented fighters out there with little to no formal training, but they're very much diamonds in the rough. Kickboxers, yes, absolutely -- more so if they're from a ruleset with low kicks.
Conditioning of the hands is also an important area to take into consideration. Practitioners of fighting arts, that become used to hitting pads, punch bags & boards, without the use of gloves & wraps, undoubtedly develop stronger bones in their hands. This was something that was encouraged when training in styles like Karate. Boxers are far more at risk of damaging their hands in a bare knuckle fight, because they are always protected. It was noted that the bare knuckle boxer, of the 18th Century Tom Cribb, could punch the bark off a tree, his hands were so tough.
@@EnglishMartialArts I was involved in the Martial Arts for over 20 years. I commenced my training in an Oldskool, Karate Club in the mid 80s, & then moved on to Classical Ju-Jitsu, & Aiki-Jitsu. Both my Karate Instructors had trained with the Japanese. Lots knuckle press ups on a wooden floor, will soon toughen your hands up.
@@EnglishMartialArts Read up on Joe Lewis, the karate one not the boxing one. I read an interview in a magazine something like 15 years ago, sorry I don't remember which one. He was a US Marine stationed in Okinawa who studied karate. He achieved a black belt in one year. The whole interview he was talking about how the experience was totally different to the way that martial arts are taught in the west. He said that they used to go to class every day, not once a week, and that each class began with one to two hours of cardio to make them tired because when the students are tired is when the instructors will see flaws in their techniques. He also talked extensively about the hand conditioning and the psychology of it. When he was in Japan karate was his only escape from the same boring guard duty every day; when he returned to the US and tried to pick up dates his hands were so rough and his knuckles so deformed he had several girls break up with him because of it. He tried to use various caustic chemicals and physical abrasives to reshape his hands to make them look more normal. He also beat Chuck Norris at least once but he lamented that these weren't really full contact tournaments and it likely occurred before Mr Norris acquired his meme-powers.
Bare knuckle boxers have less time in their career by going bone to bone. They're at risk of breakage by default. Even if they try to punch as perfect as possible.
Great video. I have been boxing over 20 years and over 10 years of Escrima and Kali. In a self defence situtation, I prefer palm strikes over fist. But I have read Dempsey's book a long time ago and started doing my bag work with bare knuckles over 10 years ago. It gave me accuracy, also in depth vise - I can punch a heavy bag from all angles and decide that my punch will only penetrate 1cm with these hits, or 3 cm and so on. I made a huge difference. Also no more hand or whist injuries with poorly landed punch on heavy bag.
I was told by a bunch of nerds on youtube a year or so ago, who have never trained, that punching bareknuckle on a bag would break your hands. I'm gonna say they're still just nerds
@@JoshAllenberg I punch very very hard. I hit the bag bareknuckle, and I leave a dent every time I hit, and the bag goes flying almost parallel off the hinges. Yeah, so i'm not sure how my knuckles aren't broken yet. I feel with some hits like my fist might go through the bag. I think it depends how hard the bag is. If its a proper 300lbs bag then u shouldnt punch it barehanded
@@coachingconfidant2785 well I can't really confirm or deny that punching the bottom of a bag actually would break your hands, since most bags are mounted for midgets and the punch angle is all off when you hit the only hard part of it
@@EnglishMartialArts I actually miss Rio Heroes, it was the closest thing to real combat in MMA. They had no gloves or wraps and it was full no holds barred. No bloody points system either.
The brain will actually let you generate more force if the wrists and hands are strengthened. In a sense, the perceived structural strengthening will function like a hand wrap to let you strike harder without the same risk of injury.
Great video, however, I feel like most boxers do stay in their own lane and even if they wouldn't be as good in street fights as the old bareknuckle boxers, the hand protection served as a gateway to new and refreshing stances like the Peek-a-Boo or the Philly Shell, slicker footwork,more freedom in creating tactics and overall, more entertaining and memorable moments in sports. Both boxers and pugilists should be equally respected.
The video was more about potential hand injuries then actually how boxers punch. Boxers have proven over decades that their style is the best way to throw punches.
Really good video, thanks. I agree entirely with your thesis. But again it all comes down to context. If you are striking for self defence in the street then you won't have protected fists. I have knocked people out in the street by punching and more by accident than design I did not hurt my hands. As for classical pugilism, which is my interest, even a current BKFC champ says bareknuckle is more like stabbing people than punching. You need that precise 'stab' with controlled power. In a street context I take a mixed position. modern boxing body mechanics as per peek-a-boo but impacting with palms heels as per Bas Rutten in Pancrase. That way you can use optimal power generation but also strike to the head without the need for great precision.
Completely agree with everything you've stated I often have conversations with my friends about combat sports and boxing would be one of the main topics we would discuss, I would say boxing(Glove boxing) isn't fighting but it's boxing, bare knuckle I always looked at as more of "fighting" . The part where you said modern boxing mythology on its fundamentals is based on a foundation of wearing hand wraps and gloves are spot on, this is one of the biggest reasons you don't see a lot of boxers if any, involved in other combat sports outside of the gloves, you can even watch the bkfc(Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship) and see that 95% of glove boxers who entered the sport has lost convincingly and many of them have been knocked out, because their style as you said was based on a boxing system wearing hand wraps and gloves meaning outside of that alot of those techniques wouldn't work in an actual fight, I can even recall seeing in person a really good boxer he was a golden glove Champion, and got demolished in a street fight twice by the same guy, and the guy he lost to was just a dude who was a bit of a trouble maker and would have a lot of street fights but never actually boxed, he would occasionally slap boxed though. Ironically MMA guys which boxers often say has no hands, has done way better in bare knuckle fighting, and street fights than boxers, and that's because MMA guys which we know has great hands, but their mythology is based on "Real Combat" situations instead of big glovesand hand wraps.
In fight I just punch from the arm, using the two biggest knuckles and aim for safe targets carefully, but when striking hard with body weight and lots of power behind it then strike with the palm.
I used to hit a tree when I was young, and my hands are extremely hard. I hit very hard heavy bags with minimal or no padded gloves or with nothing, and regularly test my hands hitting iron weight plates. I stopped wrapping my hands in my twenties. I do wonder if I threw absolutely as hard as i could whether my hand(s) would break hitting any part of the head besides the forehead or top of the skull. I also throw the shotput, discus and javelin, and compete in track and field, and also do the 50, 100, 200, and 400, HJ and LJ. I was #1 in the last 6, and 2 or 3 in the throws, in my state. I am much smaller than most throwers. I can still throw very hard, but don't know about my reflexes. Going to the body at full power is recommended by me, in a street fight, you are much less likely to break anything except some part of your assailant -- never seek or start a street fight, although I have knocked out anyone I hit to the head.
Absolutely agree with everything you say here. As a boxer I would definitely prefer wearing wraps and groves in a streetfight, even If I could chose not to. Wearing gloves is often seen as a way of protecting your hands but I see them more as a weapon. When I wear boxing gloves I can punch probably twice as hard than without them because I feel way safer doing that. It basically removes the subcontious limitation that keeps me from using my full power because my body can easily generate enough force to shatter my bones without protection. If you take this weapon away boxers have to limit themselves if they want to keep their hands intact. So yes, it is way harder to punch without protection.
As someone who's trained in boxing and has had some serious street brawls, I can assert that this video is indeed click bait. Boxing training and conditioning will make your hands potentially lethal. In the streets, l never thought about gloves and almost never injured my hands. This video really doesn't deserve a response.
I've had a crack in my ring finger and my middle doesnt straighten all the way from a bad punch. So I started hit the bag bare hand and its helped out my wrist and knuckle strength. Tho being a muay thai dude I like elbows for hand health lol. I remember Gsp saying that Dempsey said the 3rd knuckle was the power which really helped against injury for me at least. #fightteam
Absolutely agree. Anyone who practices striking should hit the bag with no gloves at least some of the time. It improves your wrist and knuckle position so much.
Upon reading the title I instantly remember how boxers only teach you to punch with 3 knuckles and then never addressing the form of the fist ever again.
I do agree with you form the most part, but i think your assertion that boxers flat out can't punch - is a bit hyperbolic and not very nuanced. I really think you should've carved out a massive caveat prior to to you making your case. That being the reality that there actually are plenty of boxers who have had a few - if not even alot - of experience in bare-knuckle fighting, and they most certainly would know how to throw a punch without their gloves. So iy's too broad of an assertion and should've been, "Boxers without much if not any bare-knuckle fighting experience, don't know how to punch." There's also another reason why people who have only fought while wearing gloves or wraps will have a difficult time avoiding busting their hand up when they get into their first bare-knuckle fight, tat being the position that the hand is in when in boxing gloves and how boxers are used to only every throwing punches with their hands in that shape rather than ever punching with a closed fist. The position your hand is in whilst wearing a boxing glove is akin to the one you have if you were holding a glass of water or somethin. Without experience of fighting without gloves, these boxers are pretty much as good at making a closed fist and the way in which they throw their punches - isn't any better than a novice who has no experience throwing punches regardless of whether their hands are gloved/wrapped or not.
I'm not sure if I exactly grasped the point you're trying to make but here's my two cents: For punching with no equipment, palm strikes would be best to insure minimal injury with maximum damage depending on how conditioned your fists are. I think fractures happen with/without gloves due to poor punch timing and placement, I.E. punching to landing instead of punching to do damage.
this does underline the importance of bareknuckle conditioning ocassionaly for calcification of the knuckle, but now that my hands are calcifided, they are rocks and my wrist and arm is completely stable.
Now before you read the title and start typing your furious comment telling me I'm an idiot, you should know the title is clickbait through and through. The TLDW (too long didn't watch) is that boxers hit harder than their hands can cope with. Not that boxing doesn't work.
If you listened further, you would have learned more than you already know. Stay open....
It’s kind of like with anything else physical, it’s getting in that mental performance/competitive state where we can do unimaginable damage to ourselves without even realizing it or caring in the moment. Almost threw my arm off my body pitching as a teen...torn rotator cuff.
You just admitted theres a reason for people to be mad at you
@@jinx8624 I've been around for long enough to know that people often jump to conclusions and get angry about things they otherwise wouldn't if they actually bothered to get the information.
Shit concept within itself
I think you're spot on. I'm a Surgical Technician, with 49 years experience, much of which has been in orthopedics and I've seen a lot of "boxers fractures". I grew up in a family where fighting and boxing was "entertainment " especially on weekends. I was taught to hit with my last 3 knuckles, like you showed. I've never hurt my hand. An great-uncle of mine (whom I barely recall) was a logger in North Idaho. He fought Jack Dempsey in, 1927 (i think) on his attempt to retake the championship. My Uncle wasn't knocked out, but is said to comment about Jack Dempsey , that his punch felt like getting kicked by a horse. I've no problem following Jack's advice.
Jack dempsey was a boxer
@@20FreeWill no shit
Have fun breaking your hand
I still dont understand if he means that last 3 including the index or the pinky
@@Knx3k just split the difference and try to hit them with your two middle knuckles lol
As an aspiring Professional Boxer, I cross train in traditional English Bare Knuckle Pugilism for this exact reason! Outside hard sparring, I train entirely without gloves or wraps and practice both vertical and modern straight punching and aiming for the body, chest and neck as people duck and you don't want to connect with the hard bones of the upper skull. I've also invested heavily in infighting, grappling, and my skills at parries and barring the punches to ensure accurate safe punching and control should I ever need to use my hands in self defense! I have read Dempsey, Fitzsimmons, Mendoza's, and many other books on the subject of bare knuckle punching, and they are indeed separate martial arts!
Could you recommend some books to read and or videos to watch about this topic?? I'm really interested but would like some direction for what to look into
@@parsifal40I was wondering the same thing
I agree... to an extent. The pressures of competition with handwraps and gloves mean that the technique used by most boxers these days are pretty poorly suited to bare-knuckle use, but I've noticed that a number of more old school boxing instructors will focus on hand position when punching - using the karate style "first two knuckles" approach. Luis Monda aka Sinister, who was taught by Mike McCallum has a whole video about how to make a fist and how certain strikes are supposed to land, for example, and he emphasizes the two main knuckles. Alexey Frolov from Russia similarly is very insistent upon hand alignment akin to that used in bareknuckle arts like karate.
The knowledge is out there and remains, but it's usually only the old school style teachers who emphasize it.
Your second sentence should be the actual title of this video...
@@EnglishMartialArts Hah, no, I get you. Gotta generate those clicks somehow, right? Great video.
Look up three knuckle contact. That was Marciano's technique.
Thank you for mentioning Alexey Frovol.
Watched all of his videos and as you said he goes really deeply into hand and arm positioning for a correct punch, which is also great for boxing with gloves actually. I certainly have less injuries now after correcting this
Forther more the punch lands harder and is more effective when thrown correct and precise, which IS taught in boxing though. (Depends on the trainer oc)
Spot on. I wish MMA never introduced gloves and wraps. We would have an even better understanding of what works and doesn’t. We would also see a development in open hand strikes, similar to the old school Gracie method of slapping to help sink in chokes. The boxing style of the Diaz brothers is likely the most similar to old bare knuckle of any modern fighter today. Though the flaws you mentioned still present themselves in their style, just to a lesser degree.
It would certainly look different if they'd stuck with bare knuckles.
Elbows would be even more utilized, and as I mentioned open hand techniques would be explored. Similar but different, in oneFC and back in pride we saw a lot more jiu jitsu style ground defense. With soccer kicks and grounded knees to the head, it’s alot more risky to turtle and stand up in a folk style wrestling method. It much safer to have you legs between you and the opponent… if your on bottom and the can soccer kick you.
I apologize all my comments on your videos ramble on lol. Do you think in bare knuckle mma there would be more grappling, and more thai clinch work. Right now unified rules still seem to favor a wrestler boxer style. In my opinion.
@@BjjMaster Absolutely there'd be more grappling. The old UFC was essentially Vale Tudo fighting, which heavily relies on grappling.
i also think that boxing gloves should have retained the older glove size, you know that looks like a real glove not a pillow.
I would really like to see a video on the difference between old school pugilism and modern BKB. How the equipment, rules, etc, changed.
Due to the gloves it gave boxers more to punch harder.
@@jmgonzales7701 BKB (what the original commenter is asking for a comparison to) is a modern bare knuckle fighting organization based out of the US
So all boxers, thai boxers, mma fighters, ect, can’t punch 🤣 what a ridiculous take
Of course hand injuries when fighting bare knuckle are common, doesn’t mean that in a fight Terrence Crawford wouldn’t knock anyone out and risk hand injury
They used vertical punches.
Totally agree, especially about Dempsey having the best description of "proper" punching. I tried to remember it when I was younger but still have a funky looking pinky on one hand. One thing I've always hated is with a lot of modern gloves it's basically impossible to make a proper fist and the thumbs just sticking out by itself. If you punch without them it's all too easy to hit without a properly rolled and tightened fist....hence the funky pinky 🙄
Yeah, gloves have a lot to answer for.
@Jerome Fellerhoff pretty much, there was a bit of leeway with some strikes.
I remember I read somewhere that old gloves don't really stitch the thumb like in modern boxing but so many fighters used it poke their well padded thumbs into the other guy's eye while punching, the gloves became like we know today
You need to buy a better boxing glove.
Karate punching with some wing Chun punching can rectify these issues if you slowly and gradually train bare knuckle properly you can overcome many of these issues but still remain careful and only punch with maximum power when the situation gives you the advantage also many boxers who are beginners fail to put there entire bodyweight into the punch when using power punching and when shadowboxing only punch with shoulders and don't move entire body as one unit which should be done when shadow boxing
In the ring an average boxer can take me on with gloves and wraps bare knuckle I can easily knock them out because I am any better I am just used to fighting mare knuckle and used to getting punched bare knuckle and getting kicked barefoot
Modern boxing needs to go beyond mere gloves and wraps boxing and should be also taught bare knuckle style along with techniques from other sports and martial arts to improve as boxers and be able to survive a street fight if that unfortunately happens
“Timing beats speed, precision beats power.”
-Connor McGregor
Like him or hate him, he’s got a point.
Those words have been in boxing from a really long time, way before McGregor.
@@nestorarcilaosorio2457 I didn’t know that, thank you for the update. Now I don’t have to credit McGregor for the saying
@@robertnguyen9493 i was not trying to be a dick or anything. But McGregor was always kindda of a boxing fan, maybe he hear the words from some coach.
came across this thought it was gonna be some shameless clickbait, but i was suprised cause you explained everything very well.
Thank you!
We used a vertical punch in karate and I also use it in my boxing. Never had an injury punching hard when focusing on structure and accuracy. Less precise or glancing blows tend to compromise the structure and hurt the hand more.
I can believe that.
Do you practice Isshin Ryu?
Thumb on top, or next to the index & middle fingers ?
@@daniel-zh9nj6yn6y Isshin Ryu is the one that has the vertical punches, so thumb on top.
I absolutely agree. When I did Boxing it took me about a year to unlearn how used to punch, but the problem is while I became quicker the striking was too ecliptic & relaxed, which caused me injuries even while gloved & wrapped. Now that I'm no longer competing I'm redeveloping the traditional punching mechanics I learned from doing pugilism from Carl Cestari in NJ, Kyokushin from Tiger Schulmann, Goju Ryu from Buddy Amato along with the conditioning drills from the other Asian martial arts I learned over the years. Five Ancestors & Hung Gar have good conditioning routines too.
Conditioning is really something I need to make a video on...
@@EnglishMartialArts I saw a bizarre recipe for literally pickling your hands with a brine and laudanum solution, I think it was in Bart J Doran or Edmund price. Add some commentary on that in your hand conditioning video
You Make no fucking sense 😂
When it comes to hand protection the tool I have recently found out to be quite useful is the traditional Makiwara. Punching it barehanded requires much needed precision, alignment and force management (relax and tensing) it makes a perfect tool for testing out the durability of your instrument. It also helps to think of gloves and wraps as a separate category of weapon, they are not just there for protection alone. Regarding hand configurations for bare knuckle striking, I have found the followings to be of great use for the context: palm strike, vertical palm strike with outside edge of the hand, Slavic Hook (vertical hook hurts the fingers, horizontal hook hurts the thumb) - although the mechanism of delivery is more complicated, and finally the Wrist hook (when you keep your wrist flexed while performing the motion). Hammer fist is a honorable mention but I believe it’s better suited for GnP like normal palm strike. Would love to see a video from you which goes into deeper depth regarding this topic. Cheers!
My first martial art was karate, and I was stunned to find out people thought you couldn't punch bags bare handed until I realized they wear gloves when they do bag work! Hitting stuff with your bare hands or just light gloves does wonders for conditioning.
Respect for you man. You called gloves and wraps by weapons and I couldn't agree more.
About the makiwara is the best way to develop basic skills and evolve
yeah boxers back then also punched way differently
@@B..B. Not only the Makiwara. Pushups on the index and middle finger knuckles are helful, too. You can even lift them up and do a little punch into the ground on the downswing. Great for force control and hardening of the knuckles.
I agree after 35 years of makiwara training I have never injured my hand punching without gloves or raps
That's why I like to take gloves off while hitting the bag. It forces you to pay attention to alignment 🙂 if you are worried about punching bareknuckle, use palm strikes.
Your video was recommended on my feed. As a boxer, I immediately knew you would mention the powerline and the differences between old school pugilist and modern boxers. Amazing video.
Everyone is an expert until they try and hit a human skull with full force, while it's moving, and actively trying not to get hit.
I’ve learned regular punching in Muay Thai, but that same teacher also teaches hapkido and taught us if you ever get caught in the street turn it into a vertical punch.
A good teacher!
@@antiantifa886 oh ok thanks!
@@antiantifa886 Dutch KB does bare knuckle ?
I would think most boxers are aware that you cant throw a straight right at someones chin with 100% force without a glove or wraps
its like he's never heard of boxers STREET FIGHTING
I think learning boxing techniques is very important modern fighting. Learning the techniques properly you can get your strikes fairly accurate while maximizing power. Of course it definitely risks breaking you hand but training on the the heavy bag bare knuckle while using boxing techniques I find is a good way to condition the hands and also get a feel for how hard to throw your punch when the gloves are off.
i've been doing it for a year, and I punch really hard. I found the first 2 knuckles are the strongest, so i'm guessing i unconsiouly learned how to hit without breaking knuckles idk. Only the last 2 get sore sometimes
You strike with your palm.
That's what I learn during my martial arts day; if you have to fight for your life, open palm strikes can save your hands.
Absolutely! As you notice in old pugilism pictures, even some Pugilists went as far as supinating their fists aside from the standard vertical fist so that their knuckles would guarantee to hit the lower part of the skull even when the opponent's head was tucked down to minimize risk of knuckle fracture whist still be able to put their whole body weight and kinetic energy into the punch.
Quite similar to the Chinese Wing Chun and perhaps it even derived most of its techniques from old school Pugilism such as its stance and gap closing techniques after exchanges with the English sailors since the former style was invented around the 18th century.
One day I'm going to see if I can prove that connection. It feels very likely, but I haven't seen any proof yet.
There's a few people who suspect Wing Chun is actually based on classical pugilism. I doubt anyone would be able to verify it but personally I think it is probably true.
Awesome observation 🎯
I have thought this as well having trained in wing chun for 25 years with loads of sparring an awful lot of the techniques and theory are identical
Intresting point on boxing and wing chun
Big fallacy introduced at 6:16. "The more power used, the less accurate they run the risk of being". Well, no. Boxers train to place punches exactly where they want to, and power is not synonymous with being inaccurate. Some people can use a great deal of power with a great deal of accuracy. This is where the logic of the video falls apart.
Great video as always. For what my experience is worth, I agree. I had to take a break from boxing a few years back and decided that, since I was at most going to train on my own, the best thing I could do was to study this little book called “championship fighting” and maybe base my training on it, boy was I in for a revelation. Turns out I didn’t know what “explosive” meant at all, also it wasn’t until I tried to hit the bag glove-free that i realized how nuanced punching really is, cut to a few years later and I’m stil trying to figure it out.
But one question I find more interesting than “can boxers really punch” is if it is possible to use, with at least an adequate amount of efficacy, old school punching in modern competition, and get the proverbial “best of both worlds”.
Fight team.
That would be an interesting thing to see.
I started Karate (Wado Ryu) when I was 13, back in the hey day of 1973, and striking conditioning was a key part of what was expected of everyone. I still hit a heavy bag without gloves, use dried peas for finger and fist conditioning, kick walls/trees, condition my forearms and can finger jab a leather bag full of metal shot 000s times with force.
I know ex boxers who have no knuckles left after fighting outside of the gym due to no protection and no hand conditioning. Old school jabbing, no twisting of the arm and using the 2nd knuckle as the striking point, works extremely well when aimed at the eye socket. Only an idiot aims for the jaw with no protection on the hands, I once had a tooth lodged in my knuckle from doing it.
boxers train hand durability dude
@@hoeheffler4236 LOL. Course they do.
ruclips.net/video/Gd2ALMTLaBQ/видео.html
@@Man_v_Cars ruclips.net/video/dvsGkb7SNWs/видео.html
@@hoeheffler4236 That's basic strength and conditioning, 99% do not condition their hands.
This is just the reason why I always found Pancrase so interesting, that they typically used the palm heel in both jabbing and swinging motions due to it having a stronger connection nearer the wrist. If you ever listen to Bas Rutten talking about knocking people out, he would often be using the side of his forearm to torque their head rather than trying to generate power through his hand. Same reason I always liked doing Muay Thai, there's nothing like a good elbow.
they did that because it was illegal to punch the head in its ruleset
Yeah I think Baz is on record as saying that he preferred the palm strike because of alignment through the hand/forearm for energy transfer and lowered chance of damage to the fingers when striking without pretty much any gloves or padding. He sure demonstrated that one can generate knockout power with that method also.
Mere speculation here, but the people who did Pankration were warriors whose main method of combat was with hand held weapons. I think hand injuries resulting from unarmed fighting might have been regarded as an unacceptable risk to a warrior's future functioning. So while Pankration was used as a tool to train indispensable close quarters striking, throwing and ground fighting that would have been vital to know in war, busting up your hands was not worth it for easy knock outs on the gymnasion sands. Also, in war most warriors wore bronze helmets and bronze or leather/padded torso armour, further making training in punching with close fists a kind of useless skills when seen in the broader context of the physical fostering of warrior skills in ancient Greece.
It's funny that almost all strikes in martial arts are performed with a joint. I guess the shin kick is a good counterexample, but even there you're risking your foot bones and toes if you miss. I wonder what combat sports and combat itself would look like if humans had natural weapons like claws anywhere on the body.
@@mrkiky we wouldnt fight cuz we would fucking die if we had claws without looser skin to avoid cuts
I love videos like this. No ‘this style is better than that one’ just an objective physiological look at how to fight effectively.
Thank you!
This is the first channel that i can think of where the person really knows what he talking about and is not a jerk
Thank you, that's quite a compliment!
One thing that I was taught is that a lot of the time people don’t release the energy properly in a punch. People try to punch through their opponents instead of releasing the energy of the punch onto them and when you release the energy onto them you feel nothing in your hands. This is also key with bone alignment making sure that the hand and arm are one connected bone making it powerful and stable
Absolutely fascinating information on the medical theory behind hand wraps.
Genuinely appreciated that historical walk through from you!
Western Boxing is one of the most dangerous sports in the world.
8-12 oz. Gloves means more surface area to hit the target, which means more
constant blows of head trauma. In 2019 we lost Maxime Dadashev. R.I.P.
The most complete bare handed fighting style is Bas Rutten's Palm strikes, Bas preferred grappling as opposed to his striking to get more ground experience. Which is why he didn't utilize it in most of his fights. For the people who say it's an ineffective striking tool, please refer to Bas Rutten vs Kengo Watanabe, it's the only recorded fight that demonstrates palm striking in a brawl and gross motor scenario. Having a boxer incorporating his footwork, explosiveness, and power combined with perfect palm strike placement is what I consider the perfect bare handed style.
Icy Mike from hard2hurt did a video some time ago, where he argued that if you want to harden your fists for real life/ street fight/bare knuckle punching - you should train with gloves and wraps most of the time, because that way you practice technique and precision. And, from time to time - you punch with bare hand, just to be sure you are doing it right. So I guess you two agree on this topic =)
Enjoyed the video! Thanks!
I think anything designed to minimise injury is a good thing. And Icy Mike knows how to hit stuff.
Yup, the gloves should be used like how it was used years ago, as a training tool to minimize damage from training, not something that damaged your fighting ability when push comes to shove
@@EnglishMartialArts I conditioned my knuckles using Wolff’s law and my knuckles were are solid, hence winning power breaking at the world championships in South Korea, however, you are sooooooo correct that this comes at a heavy price. My hands are a mess now and hurt a lot on cold days, I’m only 43 and envisage a very painful later life haha
@@EnglishMartialArts so RUclipsr icy Mike knows how to hit stuff but these elite boxers can’t punch? You made this video for nothing.
IcyMike is not someone I would listen to regarding fighting, and especially not streetfighting. That's just a general rule a thumb. But furthermore, if this is what he suggested, then he's absolutely incorrect. That is NOT the way you want to go about it and ironically what you should be doing is literally the OPPOSITE of what IcyMike allegedly said lol.
Wearing hand wraps + gloves, or just wearing one of the other, you can not even form the correct fists/ hand positions that you need, for punching hard surfaces without handwraps/ gloves. So if you practice your hand strikes the majority of the time wearing GLOVES/ HAND WRAPS, and your goal is to be effective WITHOUT gloves/ handwraps.........you're killing yourself.
From a football standpoint, practice during the week how you want to play in the game on sunday! If you only play flag football during the week, then on Sunday it's full contact.....do you REALLY think you'll be even remotely effective on Sunday ? lol. Of course not.
Wearing handwraps and gloves even effects the posture and positioning of your hands and arms, regarding how you're throwing the punch, and it HIDES a lot of the details that show if you're actually throwing the punch correctly or not. So this again stops you from effectively learning.
This is just a brief intro in response. If you want the real and full details, I'm not sharing them here. You'll have to contact me on instagram.
Good luck and God bless.
I would say the best thing for a boxer to do to retain the power and confidence in striking with his hands is to use his palms. Hooks will turn into slaps and uppercuts wouldn't really exist, but it would take less adjusting for a boxer than punching with bare knuckles.
I totally agree, I've seen dozens of guys hurting their hands in the gym punching without gloves and wraps, I personally like to also strengthen my wrist and knuckles so occasionally I hit bare handed, I can go as far as a full force liver punch without hurting my hand (where the bag is the tightest, feels like hitting a brick wall) but I only do it as often as once a month or so and I don't suggest to anyone trying it, it is simply not worth it, and if you are in a street fight rather try to use some elbow shots, grab the head and choke or knees to the face, if you only know boxing try to hit the 1 - 2 and stun him a hit then I'd still try some elbows or such, even if you fight with someone in the street and win a fracture to your palm is a nasty thing, on the other hand your elbow is godly.
Couldn’t agree more. I teach cardio boxing and train boxing because it’s good for head movement/movement in general, and overall cardio. When I teach a monthly self defense class, it’s always vertical fist to soft areas and palm hands to hard areas. FIGHT TEAM!
Exactly!
Don’t agree with the palm strikes myself. They don’t do much damage to the opponent and if your fingers go back you’re buggered.
@@ynghuch like Bas Rutten said, you're not using the palm like the name suggested. You use the heel of the hand. And yes, they're not as powerful as a closed fist but they create opportunity for grabs such as wrist control when you palm strike a high shell guard, collar tie if you palm strike/slap the face or a simple shove back could get you the underhook
@@jaketheasianguy3307 agreed. Also, palm strikes are a great way to strike someone’s forehead and cause them to reveal their chin.
@@micahboswell4000 yup, just like Jack Dempsey wrote. The only reason should you do a light lead "punch" (this is the part where he talked about boxing with big gloves) is to push the forehead back, expose the chin so you could nail in that no.2 punch
I agree 100%. If you want direct knowledge that wraps significantly protect the hand, go punch a heavy bag without them.
Modern boxing is a weapon art. They're spongy weapons that lessen the abrupt onset of impact on giver and receiver, but still weapons. Taking the weapons away pulls the rug out from under the foundational assumptions of the art. It's only reasonable.
As someone with two dropped pinkie knuckles from martial art mishaps during a mis-spent middle-age, I can see how punching a randomly moving bowling ball with teeth might less than ideal.
Considering it as a weapon art does make a lot of sense.
This is why 1st generation English boxing is my favorite striking martial art. It was very effective and brutal with many prize fighters unfortunately dying in matches. This is why 2nd gen and 3rd gen (modern sport boxing) boxing came about. To make it safer as a sport. They used palm strikes against the head and it seems like I remember reading that they did use punches for the soft areas like the abs and obliques. They used other strikes too because the goal was to use whatever was effective. It would be fascinating to hear your perspective on 1st gen English boxing. I was recommended this channel from Matt Easton on a video on his Schola Gladiatoria channel.
Next video gonna be like: Footballers can't kick
Then proceeds to masterfully explain that if footballers kicked the way they do without their shoes their bones would break like made of chalk
when I saw the video title I was confused, as soon as you brought up the glove I realized what you meant
Personally I think a beauty in boxing is the explosiveness of the knockouts and the pursuit of power, while accuracy and precision can still be a major focus. With bare knuckle there’s only so much power you can give before risk of injury creeps in, so accuracy and precision seems far more important, while I think modern boxing gives a better balance. Just my thoughts.
I was taught in wing chun to either punch with a vertical fist using the bottom knuckles pointing out, or palm strike, or side palm strike. Its purpose is to prepare for real life self defence situations with no gloves.
I agree, I already knew all of this, I suffer looking at hooks 90% of the time.
I practice mostly bareknuckle, I can punch the bag full force and I've never hurt my wrist.
edit: I am also translating Dempsey's book to Spanish, I don't know if you or anyone else is interested on that, but let me know if you are.
I'd check out the copyright laws, I don't think his work is public domain yet.
@@EnglishMartialArts In the UK copyright would run for 70 years from Dec 31st of the year Dempsey died. E.g. Conan Doyle died in 1930, copyright in Holmes ran out in 2000, cue sudden flurry of Holmes films a few years after....
@@EnglishMartialArts It is public domain, I made sure of that. It's free and legal on the internet.
I think the other book he did isn't yet (he also trained in catch wrestling and was comissioned a fight book by the national guard)
Estoy seguro que ya debe estar en español! Si no es así y lo publicas, estoy interesado!!
@@marianohernangutierrez2525 hay traducciones automatizadas que están bien horribles e ilegibles, por eso mismo lo empecé a traducir.
You have a good argument, but the main problem with it is that the generality can easily be used against it, thus making it void [Example: Since Tak Woon Doe use special shoes and leg guards and shifted movements around the develop of their armor, the practitioners of the Art can't kick].
The accepting of that is absurd, but the argument can still be valid if formed with a more specific body.
Again the issue with what you are saying is that it's too general.
To present a counter argument is strength training. You can strengthen the toughness of your hand bones and muscle. This was known since the ancient days of the Eastern Arts and I am sure the Western Pancreatic fighters knew about it too. In the early days of Boxing, (even tho' we still know very little) we know they didn't use gloves-- so there have to be a method or training early Boxers used to avoid such an injury.
My point is with the lack of overwhelming allocution from the treaties we do have; this is proof that hand injuries weren't as common as we think they were. Example would be wrestling (Sorry if everything always returns to wrestling with me)-- As wrestlers we know that breaking your neck is a real thing and can happen, but we aren't repeatedly told "don't break your nek, don't break your neck", because our training is there to stop that from happening. So, we place a note on that injury-- we don't obsess over it, but we treat it as a precaution.
To finish I wouldn't say "Boxers can't punch" but rather "Are the two [old and new] philosophies trying to out punch the other (or do they need to)?
Hmm, while what you're saying holds truth to some extent, I do feel like one crucial part of the context is missing: how often do you need to punch bare-handed?
If it's part of your discipline and have to do that on a daily basis then sure I wholly agree that punching like a boxer will most likely quickly lead to self-injuries.
But outside of that? For most people I feel the only realistic context in which bare-handed punching happens would be self-defense, in which case I would consider a faster incapacitation of the opposition a good trade-off even if it comes with the possibility of self-injury. In the middle of a fight you'd probably ignore the pain anyway and as far as I'm concerned, I'm not living in a place where I have to punch people (I mean outside of my boxing classes haha) every other day, so I'd much rather not take any chance with the situation at hand knowing that there'll be plenty of time to recover after that.
You could still spar as if your are bare handed for self defense by wearing just Boxing gloves without wrapping your wrists at all.
Jack Broughton in the 1750s invented the Boxing gloves for the sole reason of eliminating cuts and scrapes sustained from bare knuckle sparring both for prizefighting and self-defense, especially at the request of his aristocratic patrons. This was implemented without wrapping the wrists at all.
Until the Queensbury Rules, the fist alignment and bare knuckle punching techniques never really changed at all without the boxing wraps and the gloves were made primarily to prevent cuts to the sparring partner, not to protect the knuckles from fracturing.
@@chaxologist2024 My point was that I am not training for self-defense, I'm training for boxing haha
Boxing is a daily part of my life. Fighting off people in the street? Luckily not so much. I'm training for what matters to me.
Now, while I don't train for it, saying that I "can't throw a punch" bare-handed is quite the statement, I've already granted that it might get me injured but as long as it gets the job done that's a small price to pay.
I'd much rather focus my training solely on improving in modern boxing while hoping I'll never have to use the art outside of the ring, than having part of it be dedicated to learning how to properly punch without wraps or gloves.
@@gauvainhawk3380 Sounds reasonable. You stick to your niche.
What he was primarily implying was that modern Boxers can't optimally punch for a street fight/self-defense situations and old school prizefighting before the Queensbury Rules.
@@chaxologist2024 Exactly, I understood that was the message of the video and I do agree with it which is why I can comment while staying level-headed.
It's just that the title fails to convey that and might appear as provocative to someone not familiar with this channel which doesn't help setting the right mindset for listening.
Your opening point is a very good one.
Your voice is mesmerizing and soothing. The content is impressive as well.
Thank you!
True, I spent 2 years developing a killer hook I cant even use in a proper fight
Glad it's not just me!
You can hook bareknuckle, it's just harder.
Hook is probably lower risk. The forehead is the part most people break their hands on. Not saying you should, but it's probably less likely to end up with a broken hand than a straight cross
When you put it the way you have, explaining how they can't punch the way they do without gloves and wraps, it does make sense.
Boxers usually get accurate enough to target the cheekbones. I've seen it in videos, and once in person. It was a one-sided fight between teenagers, one of them had a few years of training.
100% Agree. If not using wraps the chance for breakage of the hand/wrist is massive. In Wing Chun they use the bottom three knuckles as you described, combined with open hand techniques in order to protect the hand from being broken. Good video! Take a look of the stances and position of the hands of the old school bare knuckle boxers, completely different. I have seen many breaks for friends of mine not wearing wraps...
I definitely understand the very valid points you've made here. The notion that a boxer can't punch is ridiculous however. Gloves and hand wraps have EVOLVED the ways in which you can strike but saying that professional face and body punchers aren't precise and technical is absurd. Big gloves definitely allow more margins for error for the safety of your hand if you aren't precise with your shots, but boxers definitely know how to punch.
I'm really happy that you pointed out that the "BKB" of today isn't bareknuckle. I've been saying that since day one, and you nailed my thoughts right on the head when you said that's why there's so many standard boxing techniques in this new "BKB".
I've taken the time to research the history of bareknuckle boxing and I've come to have such an appreciation for it. I think it is superior to Queensbury rule boxing.
do you think bareknukcle fighting has a chance to make it big?
How is it not bare knuckle?
@@ancientdarkness3102 it's not bareknuckle because they wrap their wrists with hand wraps. The knuckles are exposed,but the wrist is supported by an artifice; ergo not BARE knuckle. Bare means bare,it means no enhancements or equipment on the hand at all.
The second reason it's not bareknuckle is because of the techniques the fighters are using these days. They are fighting like Queensbury boxers without gloves on: same form same techniques. BKB techniques are so much different and require a different nuance to understand.
I would highly suggest researching the differences between bareknuckle and Queensbury glove techniques.
It is with this that i say todays BKB is not true bkb,they do not honor the style,techniques,or traditions of bkb.
@@jmgonzales7701 i think it is possible because Queensbury rules ruined boxing. I used to love it until i researched bkb and decided bkb is ultimately superior. There are no gloves in the streets.
@@ForProfit-x100 will look closer to BKB. lol i wonder if its basically a take on old style boxing i wonder if they will add in some kicks, and grabs that makes it to a brawl? because you know old pugalist style boxing is basically more of a brawl than just using hands.
Went to a Krav Maga class and they said to punch with a vertical fist & try to connect with the top 2 knuckles for this very reason
Ive been boxing for 8 years now, trained Muay Thai(Brazilian Thai boxing/kickboxing version…more kicks) for 5 and practiced taekwondo from childhood(traditional not Olympic) and I’ve been practicing traditional karate for 2-3 years now when it comes to striking styles I practiced in a serious and consistent manner, the information in this video in my humble opinion is absolutely true and I don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been said: most people remember that boxers have the hardest hitting punches in overall striking sports but forget that the gloves are there to protect the hands which allows for overwhelmingly powerful strikes given the rotation of the hip which any other bare knuckle martial artist of any striking style technically can mechanically due for sure but the resulting impact would result in an injured or even broken hand as a mechanical structure of a strike in the boxing styles has in mind that the gloves will protect the fist, karatekas punch in a way where the strength of the strike suffers the least as possible without resulting in injury to the hand or a compromise in speed which is why they’re mechanically weaker but have less variation when it comes to the distance of the strike as a karate punch from a full range of motion such as closing the gap between you and your opponent and striking or a karate punch from a very “in your opponents face” situation feel somewhat mechanically the same for the striker and the one who gets hit as traditional karate punches don’t come from the hip but from muscle contraction in a well measured way as to not hit yourself not to mention that this is why karatekas and other bare handed styles: understanding that the hand would eventually break if the striking is employed too often even if perfectly, often practice some sort of hand calousing or conditioning exercise innate to the martial art, this can be seen in traditional karate stules(goju-ryu(my style) ,shorin,uechi-ryu for example) and in traditional but functional kungfu styles(shaolin, Baijiquan,iron fist for example) where exercises such as hitting boards of wood(makiwara) or constantly doing closed fist push ups and using your hands to hit sand and rocks or conditioning your hands through calousing them in general are so employed: they are an extra way to guarantee your hand can perform constant,controlled but stressful(to the hand) bare knuckle strikes if necessary be without getting injured or at least by diminishing the injury caused, now my personal opinion as always: pugilism and boxing are very much effective and pressure tested styles, boxers hit the hardest and practicing boxing in a traditional boxing gym is by far one of my most enjoyable workouts(2 times a week in the same day I practice karate as of rn as sadly my other days are currently preoccupied with Brazilian jiu jitsu practice) and I recommend boxing to anyone who wishes to be stronger and learn how to throw a punch, however for bare knuckle confrontations certain styles of traditional bare handed martial arts would be circumstancially prefered over traditional boxing due to their specialized bare hand conditioning and techniques focused on the idea you wouldn’t have gloves around you in a real confrontation, that being said I think that while striking is certainly very much a necessary part of sportsmanship and self defense in a real street fight or self defense scenario wrestling and grappling as well as the use of weapons and having previous training with them(firearms, bladed weapons and contusion weapons off course) would be more important then to have a boxing vs bare knuckle martial art choice as a broader range of styles and skills betters your chances overall.
very informative post OP. Your knowledge is vast. Thank you... but i didnt see one period in that paragraph lol.
@@thedust850 ah sorry i sometimes do that ...i generally dont have any idea how long the coment im gonna post is gonna be sorry im working on it.
@@jonhstonk7998 He's not complaining about the length of your post. He's complaining about your lack of grammar.
@@beelzebootthecanadiandevil9600 yes and my lack of grammar comes from english not being my first language AND from me not knowing/realizing how long the comment was going to be, therefore i forgot to use paragraphs, quite an honest mistake.
@@jonhstonk7998 lol its all good i was joking. Great comment tho.
Tack!
You’re so right. Precision is under rated and boxer punching so effective in the ring can create some bad habits when neither gloves or wraps are used. I’m guessing like myself you’d prefer bare knuckle to do away with wraps. I’d go one step further and encourage palm strikes, elbows, sweeps and takedowns. Wouldn’t it be create to resurrect a sport which blended grappling with arm strikes where the fight was scored by knockdowns rather than knockouts.
Yes, that would be an amazing thing to watch. I'd like to see us going back to a round only finishing when a fighter went down too.
@@EnglishMartialArts my main issue with that is would fighters start voluntarily taking a knee to end the round if they are in trouble
I completely agree. I will add if I may, that I find it something between hilarious and tragic that there are instructors in self-defense schools teaching not to punch with a bare knuckles in a fight (but to use the palm, like that can't get hurt, especially at the wrist and fingers...), instead of preparing their students for it. They are removing the basic fighting tool of all ages for no reason! Boxer's fractures are actually rare among streetfighters and martial artists; the second even condition their knuckles, wrists, through using the bag and knuckle pushups and weights. In my more than three decades in the arts, I have never come across anyone hurting their hands in a class, in a match or in a street fight. Having said that, boxers indeed can't punch properly without gloves, they don't understand how. Look at them when they shadow box without wraps, WHAT A SHAM, what lack of alignment, their punches look like a white belts, it's like their punches are hanging off their wrist; no wonder it's more possible for their hands to get hurt in a street fight, but the reason that most still don't, is because of adrenaline and hyperfocusing to aim a clear shot with power behind their strikes and of course because a punched head is not a wall, but moves out of the way once punched.
Look at how boxers mess up their hands when they get in 'street' or press conference altercations: Larry Holmes messed up his hands so bad after punching Trevor Berbick that he jumped off a car roof and kicked Berbick in the chest with both feet; Mike Tyson broke his hands, several times, in street fights; David Haye, even with a beer bottle in his hands, managed to break a toe punching Derek Chisora... :D
Exactly!
Very good video, though I believe it does a slight disservice to the great power punchers of boxing since their primary attribute was their ability to accurately hit prominent knockout points and land with the big knuckles thus doing maximum damage. New gloves are a real problem and lazy technique is actively encouraged on pads and bags now. Nobody worries about how their hand is landing because the gloves look pretty and make a loud noise. Nice one Oz 👍🏻
Thank you!
I've practiced martial arts and studied fighting physics for almost 38 years now. "How to actually throw a punch" has been a major focus of mine, both in improving my own skills and in teaching others. This video? Not wrong. Not at all.
There are techniques for striking when you have no wraps and no gloves, thick throughout all martial arts - until you get into MMA and boxing, where there are virtually no skills taught. Those martial arts absolutely rely on hand protections, and they do not throw realistic punches. While there are people who have enough of a pain tolerance that they can break their hand mid-fight and not become utterly helpless... most humans wilt under that kind of pain, even with a massive amount of adrenaline rocketing through their veins. We are not built to fight on after breaking our hand. And it is BEYOND STUPID to learn a way of self-defense that breaks your own hand, then asks you to continue punching.
Dirty boxing teaches to strike hard areas with the palm, rather than the knuckles. It helps, if you are a boxer with heavy hands and don't want to unlearn your sport entirely. The main issue with fighting this way is that someone faster than you can and will grab your fingers - breaking them easily, or using them to control you. Fists are fists for a reason. But I don't disapprove of palm strikes, as long as you keep your hands closed between strikes.
Wing Chun teaches to punch with all four knuckles to distribute force evenly in the hand, and it generally avoids hard punches or strikes to hard targets. This is... OK. In the right context (someone trying to grab you to force a fight you are trying to back out of), Wing Chun's method is effective to stun an attacker with a barrage of hits that are meant more to daze than injure.
I prefer the "spear" method of punching. You punch with one knuckle; your pointer finger. That small area being the only point of contact means that you don't have to punch very hard to make your punch effective, so you protect your hand well. That knuckle sinks like a spear stabbing the target. You can hit the eye, the teeth, the jaw, the solar plexus, the chest... pretty much anywhere, safely. I used to practice how hard I could punch without hurting myself by striking brick walls. Done correctly, you don't even scrape up your knuckles let alone injure your hands.
People laugh when I say that you can drop someone by jabbing them with two fingers. But I've done it, multiple times. Precision, and a small point of contact, is much more devastating than a heavy punch where you make contact with multiple knuckles. The average human can take more than 30 solid punches to the head before going down. But a well placed precision strike will sometimes drop someone in single strike. But it's not taught anymore... honestly I understand why. Most people should not have that kind of knowledge, as they will misuse it.
@@michaw2209 I jammed my thumb once in high school while playing basketball. I've broken two toes - once against my sister's heel while playing tag, and once by catching it just wrong against a table leg. I have never broken/jammed a finger.
What I have done is jab someone in the throat, which caused them to choke for several minutes as they struggled to breathe let alone stand. What I have done is uppercut someone's diaphragm muscle (solar plexus) with two fingers, then hook their ribs there with those fingers and throw them to the ground. What I have done is violently thrust two fingers into someone under their jaw on one side, where there is a vulnerable nerve - that one got me out of a grappling bind, after which I got control of them and sent them sprawling into a stacked pile of bricks. Precision. You are an idiot to jab your fingers against hard bone, and should never attempt it. That is what punches and palm strikes are for.
@@michaw2209 I will offer this advice to you, or anyone thinking to finger jab with any amount of real force. It isn't typically two straightened fingers being thrown like a jab - that really only works against the soft front of the throat, or into the eye socket if you are 100% sure you won't miss and hit skullbone.
Typically what you are doing is something akin to a "crane" hand shape from kung-fu(gung-fu). Your pinky and ring fingers are bent, and out of the way. Each joint of your pointer and middle fingers are barely bent, as to not bend the wrong way under stress and jam/dislocate. Your middle finger joints should be more bent than in your pointer finger, so that the two end joints are side by side The point of your thumb presses hard against the side/front of your pointer finger. This position pinches the last joint of your pointer finger between your middle finger and thumb. The last digit of your pointer finger is the actual weapon. Everything else is just to drive it in. Small contact area + precision + speed = penetration. The target's body is a muscle shell with very vulnerable points between and behind those muscles. Some of them will do damage, others merely hurt and leave a nasty deep bruise later. But even just a finger thrust to the interior bicep or face will hurt enough to stun anyone who doesn't have an exceptional pain tolerance. And since you don't have to land a hard strike, these are strikes you can execute from a grappling or wrestling situation. You can't rely on any one strike working, but you can just keep using them (as well as other techniques) and something will. This is how you fight if you aren't the bigger stronger younger person. You do more with less, to equalize things as best you can.
Ah, the two finger technique. One of my favorites in the art of Bullshido
@@wolfhawk1999 I am guessing you have no understanding of physics.
❤
Thanks
Definitely an issue with boxing punches. I knew about this before but this was definitely the best description I've seen of what makes boxing punches dangerous without handwraps and gloves!
Thank you!
I totally agree with this, and that is why SKOBAR, which is one of the few Russian folk styles that have not been reconstructed and has a direct lineage, uses open hand techniques when they are not using gloves.
Great video and science! In Taekwondo we train to punch with the the knuckles of the pointer and middle fingers. These two knuckles align with the radius which helps to reinforce and brace for the punch.
There a couple of other critical elements to Taekwondo punching that makes it effective.
1. Conditioning - we perform fist push-ups on a hard surface to condition those two knuckles and develop wrist strength. It’s important that this is done on hard floors. Without this conditioning even with the ability to punch correctly your knuckles will suffer injury. Only through many thousands of repetitions over months and years can the fists be conditioned to strike like this without injury. The fists become powerful enough to break bone but not suffer damage but again this must be trained rigorously for a long time.
While some styles practice striking hard objects the fist push-up is all you really need. This is a safe way to control the intensity of pain as opposed to striking a hard object for training which can damage the joints.
2. Heavy bag work. As you mention precision should be focused on first and foremost so as not to hurt your wrist or hands when striking the heavy bag without the support of wraps or gloves. You can’t go wild on it or you’ll tweak something. Heavy bag training is also the preferred method for kicking conditioning in TKD aside from actual sparring .
Anyway hope this insight into traditional Taekwondo helps someone improve their punching and fist strength. There are some more details than this to improve punching safety for self defense.
Sounds very close to Shotokan.
@@EnglishMartialArts Yes, while all the kicks and sparring methodology already existed within Korean culture because of Taekkyon (the popular folk martial art from Korea) the training of traditional punches, low stances, other strikes and blocks, came from their study of Karate in Japan during the 1940s.
While these men only trained Karate for a few years (not long enough to master it) they learned some key principles from Karate and used them in what would become known as Taekwondo in the 1950s.
I wonder if the focus on hitting the mark is also a strategy arise from the lack of hand protection??
I've been in lengthly comment battles on various threads on this subject and you have perfectly encapsulated my view point. Dempsey's Championship fighting is a great source of information from someone who knew punching. I think in modern times hand conditioning is something that has fallen out of favor. My family had a lot of bare knuckle fighting experience and I was started off punching buckets of wet sand at a very early age to form the fist and thicken the skin on the knuckles. A lot of old school boxing training such as chopping logs not only strengthened the shoulders but also strengthened the grip allowing the hand bones to be better supported but also accustomed the body structure to the recoil energy from powerful strikes. In my experience the trick to hand conditioning is to build up slowly to avoid injury. Out of the different styles I've trained with Systema have the best methods for learning to hit hard without wraps or gloves. Respect to all.
The problem with conditioning hands in the way you do it, is in our day and age most cannot. Why not? We need fit hands to use a lot of tech, esp. the computer. Most our lives now is internet via the keyboard and email, other than text of course. So if you end up with busted hands you cannot make a living. This is also a problem with carpal tunnel syndrome where you get this from too much time on the pc, either typing or using the mouse or playing too many games. The human body is not designed to do too many micro clicks. Back to hand conditoning, that kind of stuff was ok if one was a labourer but not in our time or even if you were skilled worker back in the day.
@@Mulberry2000 I work in the tech industry and as you say spend a lot of time in front of the keyboard, I also play musical instruments which requires manual dexterity. I have not found hand conditioning to be in anyway detrimental to these things. In fact hand conditioning along with muscle and tendon stretching is beneficial to hand health. The key thing is to build up slowly and don't "bust up" your hands... any exercise that damages the body be it conditioning or stretching is either wrong or being done incorrectly. You need to listen to your body and build up slowly. Good conditioning actually improves blood flow and contributes to healthy hands. Same thing as Iron Body training. If you are practicing Martial arts you need to condition your body to both give and receive strikes. You don't want to experience taking a hard shot for the first time in a street or bar confrontation. Likewise you need to understand how to strike and condition the striking areas and supporting structure to deal with the forces if you want to avoid injury. I think that the real problem is that the modern lifestyle is unhealthy and leading to many health problems and leads to a weakened body such as repetitive strain injuries, Maybe people need to change their life styles to have more variety? Respect to all.
I've seen a dozen videos of boxers getting into streetfights, they are very effective at delivering a quick ko, but their hands often get injured/break.
It´s kind of the problem with a lot of sports today. the tools and rules are so changed that it´s kind of useless in the real world.
I wouldn't say it is useless, as long as one accepts the limitations.
What about conditioning for bone density and exercises used to strengthen ligaments? Would like to get to the bottom of those 2 things especially anything that has some science behind it.
I'd love to make a video about it, but I need to get to the bottom of the actual science and not just propagate the usual myths...
Yeah I agree with you, I came to the same conclusion when I was researching pugilism through Mendoza etc. For my pugilism fighting manual I have written. The combination of wraps and gloves turn the fist nearly into a solid mass. The fighters are able to hit harder than their own bones would ever be able to take.
One of the best videos I've seen on RUclips recently. As an amateur boxer I'd agree... Lost count of how many mates have wrecked their hands in street fights. Boxers have to pull their punches in the street in order not to break them. Still rate it as one of the most effective martial arts for the street though.
Im just a guy who has some Karate knowledge and skill passed down to me from my father and as much as I watch mutiple different martial arts youtube channels I was lucky enough to reconnect with some guys who boxed and talk and share some knowledge back and forth with them. Between that reading about boxing in books as well karate or any kind of barelnuckle striking. I completley agree with you. Id been wanting to talk about this a while. Yet it does me good many times when I see yputube martial arts channels talking about stuff ive discoverd realized or have been thinking about. The only thing I add on more to mine is I believe the boxers hardest punches besides maybe the hook or possibly uppercut are pushing punches. An extrmley driving forward motion where they have to compress the soft surface of the enoughcon there target where it does the most damage to the head causing it to go back or theyre brain move inside. Bareknuckle horizontal fist with a tilt down of the wrist to align your two knuckles will penetrate a little after surface contact and do more damage in smaller areas if thrown accuratley. When I punch bareknuckle personally I try land more on my knuckles less on my fingers. Different karate styles or people may teach or choose to do it a different way but thats how I do it. Mi hael jai white did a decent vid on how using point sparring quick hits can be like jabbing some one withca blade especially if you squeeze and tighten on impact after starting loose.
im a boxer and the title just made me chuckle... wasnt heated in the least bit lolll
Your essay falls in line with how I was trained. Most of my closed fist attacks are to the body and I love the vertical punch.
I think it's massively underrated.
i conditioned my fists by punching every hard object i come by. It results in really strange behavior, but also in the feeling that my fists are now much stiffer and more like a sledgehammer
Always seemed like my karate instructor from my teen years knew what he was talking about. That said I certainly don't want to get into a fist fight with a boxer haha. Good stuff as usual, FIGHT TEAM!
Unless your a streetfighter with experience. Or a kickboxer
@@dalanwanbdiska6542 To be honest I would pick a competent boxer (or any combat sports athlete/martial artist trained in a style with active resistance and live sparring/competition) over a self-proclaimed "streetfighter", experienced or otherwise. On its own its a fairly meaningless term that's hard to quantify. There are some naturally talented fighters out there with little to no formal training, but they're very much diamonds in the rough.
Kickboxers, yes, absolutely -- more so if they're from a ruleset with low kicks.
Conditioning of the hands is also an important area to take into consideration. Practitioners of fighting arts, that become used to hitting pads, punch bags & boards, without the use of gloves & wraps, undoubtedly develop stronger bones in their hands. This was something that was encouraged when training in styles like Karate.
Boxers are far more at risk of damaging their hands in a bare knuckle fight, because they are always protected. It was noted that the bare knuckle boxer, of the 18th Century Tom Cribb, could punch the bark off a tree, his hands were so tough.
Conditioning is a fascinating subject. I really should do a video on that one day.
@@EnglishMartialArts I was involved in the Martial Arts for over 20 years. I commenced my training in an Oldskool, Karate Club in the mid 80s, & then moved on to Classical Ju-Jitsu, & Aiki-Jitsu. Both my Karate Instructors had trained with the Japanese. Lots knuckle press ups on a wooden floor, will soon toughen your hands up.
@@EnglishMartialArts
Read up on Joe Lewis, the karate one not the boxing one. I read an interview in a magazine something like 15 years ago, sorry I don't remember which one.
He was a US Marine stationed in Okinawa who studied karate.
He achieved a black belt in one year. The whole interview he was talking about how the experience was totally different to the way that martial arts are taught in the west.
He said that they used to go to class every day, not once a week, and that each class began with one to two hours of cardio to make them tired because when the students are tired is when the instructors will see flaws in their techniques.
He also talked extensively about the hand conditioning and the psychology of it. When he was in Japan karate was his only escape from the same boring guard duty every day; when he returned to the US and tried to pick up dates his hands were so rough and his knuckles so deformed he had several girls break up with him because of it. He tried to use various caustic chemicals and physical abrasives to reshape his hands to make them look more normal.
He also beat Chuck Norris at least once but he lamented that these weren't really full contact tournaments and it likely occurred before Mr Norris acquired his meme-powers.
This is why I love Kyokushin so much.
Bare knuckle boxers have less time in their career by going bone to bone.
They're at risk of breakage by default. Even if they try to punch as perfect as possible.
Great video. I have been boxing over 20 years and over 10 years of Escrima and Kali. In a self defence situtation, I prefer palm strikes over fist. But I have read Dempsey's book a long time ago and started doing my bag work with bare knuckles over 10 years ago. It gave me accuracy, also in depth vise - I can punch a heavy bag from all angles and decide that my punch will only penetrate 1cm with these hits, or 3 cm and so on. I made a huge difference. Also no more hand or whist injuries with poorly landed punch on heavy bag.
Yes and hammer fists.
I was told by a bunch of nerds on youtube a year or so ago, who have never trained, that punching bareknuckle on a bag would break your hands. I'm gonna say they're still just nerds
@@JoshAllenberg I punch very very hard. I hit the bag bareknuckle, and I leave a dent every time I hit, and the bag goes flying almost parallel off the hinges. Yeah, so i'm not sure how my knuckles aren't broken yet. I feel with some hits like my fist might go through the bag. I think it depends how hard the bag is. If its a proper 300lbs bag then u shouldnt punch it barehanded
@@coachingconfidant2785 well I can't really confirm or deny that punching the bottom of a bag actually would break your hands, since most bags are mounted for midgets and the punch angle is all off when you hit the only hard part of it
@@JoshAllenberg i never said anything about the bottom of the bag. I hit like the middle of the bag
Thanks!
Totally agree. It’s probably the biggest thing that’s been lost between traditional martial arts and modern combat sports.
Yeah, you could well be right.
@@EnglishMartialArts I actually miss Rio Heroes, it was the closest thing to real combat in MMA. They had no gloves or wraps and it was full no holds barred. No bloody points system either.
@@ynghuch I'd not heard of Rio Heroes and went to look it up. Thanks.
@@stephena1196 ye it wasn’t exactly “official” and eventually got banned but it was awesome.
The brain will actually let you generate more force if the wrists and hands are strengthened. In a sense, the perceived structural strengthening will function like a hand wrap to let you strike harder without the same risk of injury.
Great video, however, I feel like most boxers do stay in their own lane and even if they wouldn't be as good in street fights as the old bareknuckle boxers, the hand protection served as a gateway to new and refreshing stances like the Peek-a-Boo or the Philly Shell, slicker footwork,more freedom in creating tactics and overall, more entertaining and memorable moments in sports. Both boxers and pugilists should be equally respected.
The video was more about potential hand injuries then actually how boxers punch.
Boxers have proven over decades that their style is the best way to throw punches.
Really good video, thanks. I agree entirely with your thesis. But again it all comes down to context. If you are striking for self defence in the street then you won't have protected fists. I have knocked people out in the street by punching and more by accident than design I did not hurt my hands. As for classical pugilism, which is my interest, even a current BKFC champ says bareknuckle is more like stabbing people than punching. You need that precise 'stab' with controlled power. In a street context I take a mixed position. modern boxing body mechanics as per peek-a-boo but impacting with palms heels as per Bas Rutten in Pancrase. That way you can use optimal power generation but also strike to the head without the need for great precision.
Modern NFL helmets vs. Minimal protection Rugby, same thing trading spectacle of 'big hits' for radically more and worse head injuries.
Yes, spectacle is king.
Completely agree with everything you've stated I often have conversations with my friends about combat sports and boxing would be one of the main topics we would discuss, I would say boxing(Glove boxing) isn't fighting but it's boxing, bare knuckle I always looked at as more of "fighting" . The part where you said modern boxing mythology on its fundamentals is based on a foundation of wearing hand wraps and gloves are spot on, this is one of the biggest reasons you don't see a lot of boxers if any, involved in other combat sports outside of the gloves, you can even watch the bkfc(Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship) and see that 95% of glove boxers who entered the sport has lost convincingly and many of them have been knocked out, because their style as you said was based on a boxing system wearing hand wraps and gloves meaning outside of that alot of those techniques wouldn't work in an actual fight, I can even recall seeing in person a really good boxer he was a golden glove Champion, and got demolished in a street fight twice by the same guy, and the guy he lost to was just a dude who was a bit of a trouble maker and would have a lot of street fights but never actually boxed, he would occasionally slap boxed though. Ironically MMA guys which boxers often say has no hands, has done way better in bare knuckle fighting, and street fights than boxers, and that's because MMA guys which we know has great hands, but their mythology is based on "Real Combat" situations instead of big glovesand hand wraps.
In fight I just punch from the arm, using the two biggest knuckles and aim for safe targets carefully, but when striking hard with body weight and lots of power behind it then strike with the palm.
This is also why palmheal strikes are useful too, it's less likely to damage the hand.
as a former kickboxer and bouncer,instructor of traditional martial arts,I agree 100% with you.
I used to hit a tree when I was young, and my hands are extremely hard. I hit very hard heavy bags with minimal or no padded gloves or with nothing, and regularly test my hands hitting iron weight plates. I stopped wrapping my hands in my twenties. I do wonder if I threw absolutely as hard as i could whether my hand(s) would break hitting any part of the head besides the forehead or top of the skull. I also throw the shotput, discus and javelin, and compete in track and field, and also do the 50, 100, 200, and 400, HJ and LJ. I was #1 in the last 6, and 2 or 3 in the throws, in my state. I am much smaller than most throwers. I can still throw very hard, but don't know about my reflexes. Going to the body at full power is recommended by me, in a street fight, you are much less likely to break anything except some part of your assailant -- never seek or start a street fight, although I have knocked out anyone I hit to the head.
Absolutely agree with everything you say here. As a boxer I would definitely prefer wearing wraps and groves in a streetfight, even If I could chose not to. Wearing gloves is often seen as a way of protecting your hands but I see them more as a weapon. When I wear boxing gloves I can punch probably twice as hard than without them because I feel way safer doing that. It basically removes the subcontious limitation that keeps me from using my full power because my body can easily generate enough force to shatter my bones without protection. If you take this weapon away boxers have to limit themselves if they want to keep their hands intact. So yes, it is way harder to punch without protection.
As someone who's trained in boxing and has had some serious street brawls, I can assert that this video is indeed click bait. Boxing training and conditioning will make your hands potentially lethal. In the streets, l never thought about gloves and almost never injured my hands. This video really doesn't deserve a response.
I've had a crack in my ring finger and my middle doesnt straighten all the way from a bad punch. So I started hit the bag bare hand and its helped out my wrist and knuckle strength. Tho being a muay thai dude I like elbows for hand health lol. I remember Gsp saying that Dempsey said the 3rd knuckle was the power which really helped against injury for me at least. #fightteam
Elbows do solve a lot of the problems of hands being fragile!
Absolutely agree. Anyone who practices striking should hit the bag with no gloves at least some of the time. It improves your wrist and knuckle position so much.
Upon reading the title I instantly remember how boxers only teach you to punch with 3 knuckles and then never addressing the form of the fist ever again.
I do agree with you form the most part, but i think your assertion that boxers flat out can't punch - is a bit hyperbolic and not very nuanced. I really think you should've carved out a massive caveat prior to to you making your case. That being the reality that there actually are plenty of boxers who have had a few - if not even alot - of experience in bare-knuckle fighting, and they most certainly would know how to throw a punch without their gloves. So iy's too broad of an assertion and should've been, "Boxers without much if not any bare-knuckle fighting experience, don't know how to punch."
There's also another reason why people who have only fought while wearing gloves or wraps will have a difficult time avoiding busting their hand up when they get into their first bare-knuckle fight, tat being the position that the hand is in when in boxing gloves and how boxers are used to only every throwing punches with their hands in that shape rather than ever punching with a closed fist. The position your hand is in whilst wearing a boxing glove is akin to the one you have if you were holding a glass of water or somethin. Without experience of fighting without gloves, these boxers are pretty much as good at making a closed fist and the way in which they throw their punches - isn't any better than a novice who has no experience throwing punches regardless of whether their hands are gloved/wrapped or not.
My Aikijujitsu sensei told me this years ago, and I've always explored different ways of throwing a punch. This video is great.
I'm not sure if I exactly grasped the point you're trying to make but here's my two cents: For punching with no equipment, palm strikes would be best to insure minimal injury with maximum damage depending on how conditioned your fists are. I think fractures happen with/without gloves due to poor punch timing and placement, I.E. punching to landing instead of punching to do damage.
True...I broke my wrist three times on the punching bag without gloves before I learned to punch with more comfort
this does underline the importance of bareknuckle conditioning ocassionaly for calcification of the knuckle, but now that my hands are calcifided, they are rocks and my wrist and arm is completely stable.
Gloves weren't invented to protect the person you are hitting but the hands of the one hitting