WHY Your Vlog Colors Look Bad and How to Fix It!
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- Опубликовано: 4 дек 2024
- My attempt to help people struggling the Panasonic Vlog footage from the S1(H).
Complaints were that skin tones look bad and that reds are tinted orange. I think I found the culprit... but if this does not help you, please send me your footage that shows the problem and I can attempt to trouble shoot the issue.
This method is only 1 way of checking the color science of the camera to see what things look like when displayed through color management. There are many ways to check this, but this way is very easy to do and show you.
Download footage from:
www.cined.com/...
vimeo.com/3467...
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I randomly stumbled upon this video. I was not even remotely looking for it. Truth be told by chance I work with Vlog from the Panasonic GH6. All the time I've been grading wrongly without knowing. Thank you good sir. Thank you so much for randomly popping up in a totally unrelated search.
I've been having this issue with my S1 for a while and didn't know why. Thanks Tony for showing the right way!
Been coloring grading my vlog footage on my GH5s incorrectly for a little over a year now up until now 🤣. I would normally just upload directly to davinci, add a lut and adjust the color and always wondered why it always came out a bit weird.
This was truly helpful. Such a simple adjustment with a huge difference 👍🏼
Tony, wow, just wow. you solved my mystery. I have been doing color correction very wrong with the V-Vog L footage from my G95. Thank you for this straight forward tutorial.
I had this issue when trying to match my BMPCC6k Braw footage with the S5's Vlog. The Vlog footage definitely had that more 'greenish' tint. And I was just thinking my in-camera white balance was off. Very helpful as always!
Thank you so much! I'm a total newb with an S5 and it works like a charm!
I'd learned the same technique, but it was with a paid course. This is excellent information for free! Thanks for that. Also loving my Panasonic Lumix S5.
I do have a tutoring service to help people work with their footage so if you are struggling please reach out via email. Glad I could help. :)
Very clear and informative. Thanks for correcting my thinking!
This was excellent, thank you.
Tony drops the mic in every video.🎤
Why haven't I heard of this?!... RUclips is just filled with Luts, Luts packs, cinematics Luts...
I just wanted to get great colors from v-log without hours of color grading - Thank you for this!
This is awesome. I really couldn't figure this out. Is there a way for me to do this on Adobe Premiere?
hey tony . just got a lumix, is a tutorial or video for setting up exposures and other setting for a good cinematic experience
Mind blown been struggling with Vlog trying to Match it to my Black Magic. The weird colors out of the Panasonic have been glaring. This might help get me somewhere.
If you're still struggling send me an email
@@TonyDae Thank you
@@TonyDae hi Tony, whats best way to get ahold of you?
@@kevinbatts2804 Since 3 years ago how'd this turn out Kevin?
I think there are many other ways to get hue shifts - especially reds to orange etc. You show the most common, I think. But bad White balance, using curves to push gamma etc. can easily change the hue shift. I tend to do color balance with printer lights so as not to have the luma mix push anything - I also find that I can easily do that balance by using the input space and zooming right in on the skin. Somehow having the whole screen in front of you and adjusting the RGB with printer lights, your brain memory for skin kicks in and the simultaneous contrast effect is near void of seeing colors that are not really there. Good explanation on this video though. The use of color transform I find is the fastest and most accurate way to get there.
When you use the Color Transform node, are your project settings also set for Color Management or is that overkill (for instance, set to Davinci YRGB Color Managed and Wide Gamut with Output Color Space set to Rec 709 in Project Settings).
Wow, have been struggling with grades since starting and with skin tones, particularly on my new S5 and this has helped massively. Thank you 👍🏻
Very Cool. I found this method a couple of month back incidently when running through all the possible effects one can add to a node. Yes, this works much better than any LUT. Even the Varicam LUTs from Panasonic are somehow crappy. A completely different alternative which I also tested with reasonable results is to completely work in ACES. But it makes grading more complex.
So, thums up for your method here.
I'll be doing a video on using ACES with vlog in the very near future.
You can also run vlog through red ipp2 if your want which I think gives a lot of really nice starting points for rec709!
@@TonyDae Cool to hear that you will do a video about ACES, soon.
I use ACES even for my iPhone when filming in Log-2 of Filmic Pro, using one of the IDTs built into DR. And, even for my Nikon D810 I managed to install a Log-like picture profile that I can use with ACES in Post.
With an iPhone or also iPad colors become unbelievingly good and comparable to the S1H.
Waiting for your tutorial!
ACES has some really great things going for it. My only real complaint is the AP1 gamut is too dang small for neon/LED lights and some gamuts used by certain cameras. The Pocket 4K footage I have was not usable in ACES before the new Gen 5 color release and enabling the gamut compression option in raw because reds in Gen 4 would go out of gamut and become irrecoverable, even when using the LMT that is supposed to fix issues like this via ACES AP0/Linear + LMT.
ACES needs a new AP2 gamut that is as wide as say, Red Wide Gamut RGB, to avoid clipping issues. Other than this gamut problem and the need for IDT's that match right (you can do a work around by transforming from source gamut/gamma to red wide gamut RGB/Log3g10 THEN ACES IDT), I really like ACES a lot.
I will get on the tutorial very soon, right now I am fumbling trying to learn HDR grading...
@@TonyDae Hi Tony, I came across this ugly effect just 2 days ago when testing the new S1H auto focus update by shoting in my home office with 2 water bottles on my desk made of dark blue transparent plastic lit by Neon light. The blue got complety oversaturated and went into color clipping as if I had a 20 years old digital camera. I guess this was exactly what you are talking about.
Just one question. What dou you mean by "You can also run vlog through red ipp2..." in you recent comment? Not sure what exactlyyou mean. Thanks so much for your great help!
@@joyoffilming9500 Send me an email. Address is in the ABOUT section.
If you don't have D R. The leeming transformer luts do a really accurate color transform. Especially if you white balanced in camera and exposed properly. (Good practice anyways btw) i took a video of a room (s5 vlog 10bit 422 ), next my color calibrated monitor and compared colors of final output. It's very good reproduction screen vs looking at the room live with my eyes.
D R has better color space however.
Anyway to do this in Final Cut that you may know of?
Thank you ! 💐💐💐
I really thought matching up BMPCC6k & Pana Lumix S1 would be easier. Converted to Rec709 and huge difference. WTH!?
Great tutorial! I have a question for you, and would like your input. If you were shooting in Cinelike D with a Panasonic S1 how would you get proper color tones in your footage, as well? Thanks
Cined is a rec709 profile. There is a trick you can do by using color space treatment nodes into arri logc/arri gamut then using the arri log c to rec709 lut in resolve. Grade between the lut and cst node. This always gave me good results
Ok will try. I would enjoy seeing a tutorial on this! Thanks
@@marknox3703 Send me an email
woow, thanks!
Good day. Very new to color correction and grading. Are you saying that we must change the color space before doing any thing else? And simply exposing properly and adding a LUT like Gamut’s BaseLUT isn’t enough?
Thanks in advance 😊
If you use a proper corrective lut, you should be fine. This is a response to people trying to manually correct vlog and complaining that the colors are bad and therefore the camera has bad color science or is broken.
@@TonyDae ah! I understand. Thank you so much.
I am in shock. I have been using Lumix cameras for YEARS and never understood why my colors looked like this. Thank you for making this video!!
Question: How can I apply this in premiere pro?
I am glad this could help you out! You can use a node based workflow to create a 3D LUT in Resolve that you can use in Premiere. Or you can try to use the Cinematch plugin as it is similar to a color space transform.
@@TonyDae I’ll look in to that, thanks so much again. You have no idea what you just did to my production quality, thanks again! So many people would tell me I was amazing but my color grading was the only thing holding me back.
If there’s anything I can ever buy from you I would happily purchase to support haha
I am very happy that I could help you. This is exactly the reason why I created this channel in the first place.
Just being here helps support the channel, but if you would like to contribute a little extra, please consider joining the Patreon community at Patreon.com/tonydae.
Brilliant as always Tony. Do you know what gamut settings I need to use with GH5 Vlog footage? And does it change for CineD or HLG?
Gh5 vlog should be the same but I think it's vlogL which may need some adjustments in the pipeline, I'd have to check. HLG is likely rec2020 (I read possibly rec2100?) since it is for HDR but I do not get much HLG. I would need some footage to test. CineD should be rec709, try rec709/rec709 to arri logC/arri wide gamut then add the arri lut on the end of the pipe. I used to do that trick to get a better highlight roll off.
@@TonyDae mate thanks so much for the reply. I will try those settings out. I don’t shoot/edit for HDR either but sometimes I find the HLG profile is a little cleaner than Vlogl depending on the scene I’m shooting
I1 have both gh5 and s5, they have quite different 'v-log', especially when we do the color transaction in Resolve.
Had a feeling vlogL might be different. Do you know the proper input color space for vlogL? Sometimes it can be hard to find information on this. Have you tried rec2020 or another common color space?
Also, if color is getting over saturated, try using the gamut compression option. If that doesn't help, try transforming to an intermediate like Arri logC/arri wide gamut and adjust saturation/contrast before the CST or LUT at the end of the pipe.
VlogL probably isn't fully recording all of vgamut but the primaries should be close if not the same.
@@TonyDae Thanks Tony. Actually I really get tired of v-logL, its gamma clips all the highlight above 75% I think. I don't know what gamut it chooses either 😓
Hello Tony or others...if I add the Panasonic 709 conversion lut is that doing what you're doing, changing the color space correctly? Thanks.
It's a way to convert, but it is not the same as a color space transform. Luts are an individual's interpretation of color given by a specific model camera, lenses, etc. and generally the goal is to provide nice colors. Sometimea the result isn't what you expect because your model and lenses will be different from whatever was used for the lut creation.
A conversion using color space transforms is purely mathematical without any personal interpretation or beautification of the color.
Neither is necessarily better than the other, just different.
thanks Tony!
yea using `mediainfo` on a V-Log clip shows Rec 709 but it's definitely V-Gamut which is way larger, larger than Rec 2020 even, and Final Cut Pro doesn't even have V-Gamut as a color space input, so I'm either going to shoot in HLG (mediainfo shows 2020) or use Davinci Resolve as you're describing, since I don't want to manually correct and guess at the correct tinting. HLG does limit the luminance range, but I think those areas of the sensor may be noisy and less accurate (looking at V-Log gamma curve on LutCalc), though they technically may have more 'green' or 'red' data that I really don't want or need. I know ~80% on the sensor generally maps to 100% IRE pure white, unless you use dynamic range boost then it's like 90% on the sensor maps to 100% IRE, I forget the actual numbers, but it's probably a lesser quality or eats up bandwidth
You could try using resolve to transform the vgamut color space to a usable color space in fcp.
@@TonyDae dude! What would be the best workflow? Edit everything to a final edit in fcp and then send the log footage onto resolve? What would be the quality needed to export in fcp to keep the integrity into resolve?
It depends on the kind of budget you have. certain workflows work better for long pipelines, other for short.
@@TonyDae I did some testing with older video I found showing to use mlut to convert vlog into a rec709 space. It has 4 different vlog profiles. In my basic testing I noticed that obviously DR was the most accurate and best looking. Mlut with built in profiles was 2nd. Then I tried a conversion lut gamut io and finally grading it myself. In conclusion, DR is the best and mlut was in 2nd place when it came to reds being red and colors looking accurate. So for bigger projects I’ll use DR to convert and on everything else mlut will work fine.
@@TonyDae thanks again for making this video! It opened my eyes to what I was noticing but had no idea how to go about fixing it from the start! Thanks 🙏🏻
This will be a lifesaver, cuz I just bought a GH5s to be a (B-cam) for my Black magic pcc4k.
Thanks a lot.
It does really help. Thank you.
By any chance you know where I could get the V-Log to Rec709 conversion LUT?
I downloaded the footage, the image quality is amazing. Which lens you used? just curious.
They're not my shots :)
@@TonyDae ha ha
Can I use aces to get this result or similar on fcp? Or aces and color space transform different things?
I'm getting a lot of Magenta and banding in my VLog image when applying a lut, any tips or suggestions?
Contact me via email given in the about section of my channel.
How would you say does this workflow compare to using a LUT? I'ts the first time I hear about this but it seems quite powerful
The only LUTs I use that I haven't created are the Red IPP2 Luts and the Arri Rec709 LUT because of the way they map certain colors and the shoulder, but footage needs to be transformed in Arri Wide Gamut/Arri Log C or Red wide gamut RGB/Log 3g10 first. The only time I will usually use these LUTs is on quick turnaround projects.
Other LUTs I create myself or are designed like LMT's to work within certain color spaces such as Arri Log C, Log 3g10, or ACES.
The reasons I do not like to use LUTs often is because they have a destructive workflow (information output truncates some values), they only can be generated for specific output color spaces, and they generally are created to transform specific cameras or color spaces into another specific color space making them more difficult to use in certain situations.
Most people are outputting to rec709, however, with color management you can much more easily output to other color spaces such as rec2020, DCI-P3 and with color management you can much more easily mix and match shots from different cameras and work within the same color space for each. This is due to mathematically transforming each cameras color and gamma into rec709 rather than a subjective interpretation.
If you have footage from a Canon, Sony, and Panasonic camera, you can transform each to a working color space (Arri Log C for example) then output to rec709. You can grade within the Log C color space and get a more consistent and accurate result that matches from each camera than using LUTs and grading within their own individual color spaces and gammas.
ACES is another form of color management that pipes any footage fed into it to a mathematical transform that should create the same initial look and color corrections for any camera giving you consistent results than can be transformed with LMT's, as long as the camera has a proper input device transform. ACES also allows you to output to different color spaces for large post production work flows that include multiple VFX vendors by allowing CG color space output transforms.
There's a lot to say on it, but I hope this helps.
@@TonyDae Wow this answer was way mor in-depth than I expected. Thanks a lot!
@@TonyDae Hi Tony, appears to me you are one of the very few true expertes here as you exactly describe the major diffrence between color space transformation which, ideally, is a mathematical and reversible (!) transformation while a LUT is just a huge table to look up input color, sat, and light values and turn those pixel by pixel into new values. Needless to say that this process is lossy and cannot be reversed in later process stages.
Why do many people like LUTs so much, anyway? The answer is simple: when working with one camera type LUTs promise fast results, and there is a lot of small business around LUTs where people offer their "My LUT package will make you a Netflix producer within seconds" to download. Often, the disappointment is huge when people realize that the just downloaded LUT package makes their own footage look very different from the advertisement trailers.
Do I condemn or hate LUTs? Not at all!
I have built my own very impressive LUTs with a genious SW called 3D LUT Creator to grade high resolution stills withstunning results. And some of these LUTs I use for film grading in videos, too. But, this is just to give footage a final look at the very end.
BTW: what I saw about DR V17 so far looks to me as if BlackMagic has collaborated strongly with 3D LUT Creator makers or acquired the company.
Thanks for sharing your great knowledge and experience with us!
This is really interesting! Thanks!
This only works in SDR but how do you set skintones in HDR?
Color managed works regardless.
If you are using color management, change the output to the proper color space, likely Rec2100 with proper gamma, and make sure you are using an HDR monitor.
Does this mean that when using Final Cut the footage isn’t correct?
If it cannot properly transform the color space then yes. I don't use fcp.
Thanks…. Really helpful
Why not just use the official panasonic technical lut? And grade before the lut.
I have text in the video that tells you why I didn't use a lut. Even manufacturer luts are subjective, not mathematical.
So if I don’t have Resolve, I’m out of luck?
I thought the original issue with Panasonic reds and oranges was due to using the provided Varicam Luts from Panasonic themselves. I’ve never graded by just increasing contrast and saturation, I always start by adding a manufacturer lut, then adjust prior to it and flavor after it. But I use final cut, so none of this transform stuff, while it looks amazing, is relevant to me. Thoughts?
Maybe you can use resolve and generate your own luts?
@@TonyDae so it’ll cost me $300 to fix Panasonic color? Lol! Seriously, I’ve been meaning to try it, but I’ve been putting it off because of the relearning process.
Have you tried the free version?
@@TonyDae I haven’t, does it still allow for the color space transform tool?
I believe it does but I don't remember. Download it and take a look! If the node isn't available I'm sure color management is unlocked.
Thank you!
thank you sir
In these examples, do you have your project settings Color Management set to Davinci YRGB Color Managed and Wide Gamut with Output Color Space set to Rec 709 ? I use vlog-L with Panasonic GH5s and I'm trying to emulate your flow. My footage looks too saturated for some reason.
Check the input color space on your clips and make sure it is set correctly. Sometimes it will default to rec709 input with certain codecs that don't communicate automatically with resolve in RCM.
But is what he said the right setting for the project?
@@TonyDaeI also struggle with this and there's conflicting information everywhere. I understand the color transform node settings but what should the color management settings be, and what should the clip input be set to?
@@fredriksvard2603 color management in should be vlog. Clips, if not transformed correctly due to meta data not being read, should be set to color space vlog in. Email me if you're still having trouble or join the discord.
Can you make us a conversion lut and sell it please?
Become a patron and I can make one for you.
@@TonyDae How do you go about using VlogL vs Vlog? Can you make a lut for both options? Gh5s shoots in VlogL
They are the same color space.
Why hav eyou set output Gamma to Rec.709? Normaly you set it to Gamma 2.4 or Gamma 2.2 and only the Output Color Space is Rec.709
I got no problems with my GH5S or S1H with these settings. My best results was by using the leeming Lut.
You can use any you have mentioned for display referred. I used rec709 likely at the time just to put it in scene to demonstrate what a rec709 recording out of camera would give.
You're using luts, so clearly you wouldn't have had the issue I demonstrate that others are struggling with.
If you have time can you show us how to do this in final cut pro as well?????
I don't use final cut pro and they do not have color space transforms in the program to my knowledge. What you can do though is generate a LUT from Resolve and throw that into Final Cut. It won't be as good as real color management options but its something.
@@TonyDae ok thanks
So all we need to do is expose properly then apply a color space transform?
If you are exposed correctly, white balanced properly, and you transform to rec709, yes your colors will look fine. Many people struggling with vlog are trying to manually correct vgamut/vlog to rec709 instead of allowing a CST to do that automatically. LUTs are problematic in many ways because they are generated with specific white balance and other parameters, and a CST is a mathematical transform.
@@TonyDae Perfect. So after we do this, where is the best place to start in order to make a Look? Should we start with curves, the dials, what?
@@joshdiditt I would say do all corrections first then do your contrast or lighting adjustments, then whatever look you are after. Corrections are more than half the job and everything else is playing or copying someone else's look.
There are many ways to do the same thing in Resolve so experiment and find what makes the best outcomes for you.
Are corrective technical LUTs (like the Leeming LUTs) basically replicating this color transform function?
LUTs are similar but not the same. Transform LUTs like these will clip information over certain values and only provide a transform into a singular gamma/color space. You will also have to be sure the tags are correct for the video to be read correctly by an encoder and decoder.
Color Space transforms are mathematical and can be altered to output different color space/gamma at any time. If you grade using color space transforms or color management (ACES or Resolve Color Management) you can change the output color space and gamma at anytime to anything you want, including outputting for HDR10 deliverables, without needing a matching LUT.
LUTs do not allow this unless you have a set of matching LUTs specifically designed with the proper output settings.
@@TonyDae Thanks Tony, that was very insightful. Do you have any opinion on what Picture Profile would work best in an indoor, controlled lighting environment that focuses on talking head shots or interviews? I have an 8-bit Sony A6600. I've gone through countless weeks of trying to compare footages of the two, but haven't gotten anywhere. I've also then tried to record some footages myself and compare, but there's so many variables involved (i.e. color grading variations, etc) that if I wanted to compare which produced better colors on skin tones for example, it proved to be too challenging.
I've been looking at *Cine2*, as well as *HLG/HL3* (only avoiding SLOG with the belief that 8-bit cameras don't handle it well and the risk of banding is greater) - is there one that would be better for me to work with and/or what are the types of factors that would go into this decision of choosing between one or the other? I have plans to apply some creative LUTs on them as well, is Cine2 or HLG/HLG3 more suited to this regard?
I have read some things by Alistair Chapman on HLG on xdcam-user, which he advises to not use HLG for any colour grading purposes as there's inherent problems in doing so - but I feel this might not be the case as there's a range of users that can work with HLG well.
Would be interested in hearing your thoughts and suggestions please Tony!
@@itsdannyftw Send me an email, its in the ABOUT section of my channel.
@@TonyDae Thanks Tony - just sent one across! 🙌
When exposing VLOG, should be ETTR by 2 stops?
This particular video is not about how to expose VLOG, but if it is like any other log, ETTR works well as long as you aren't clipping highlights that you don't want to clip and skin tones aren't breaking as a result.
Generally speaking, I tend to get the best results with either raw or log on any camera by over exposing middle gray by about 1 stop and pulling down a stop in post production. This will result in cleaner shadows but risks clipping highlights.
If skin tones are around middle gray, over exposing by a stop should work out ok. But if over exposing by a stop or 2 is resulting in the skin tones going too high in the log curve, usually you are going to get poorer skin tones as a result because less color information will be going into those skin tone values.
At any rate, the best way to know the flexibility of a file and how to expose for best results is to do your own tests.
So by converting it to rec709 you are fixing the colours but it will also add a lot of contrast in the footage. Is there a way to transform the colours without touching the contrast? So I can add the amount of contrast manually myself?
Can you not adjust contrast to taste? Doing contrast manually is generally much more difficult and will not allow you to take advantage of color management, meaning you would manually have to change out put of contrast for different outputs instead of just changing to output gamma.
You can just change the color space to rec709 using the color space transform ofx, but you can't do that using ACES.
In any case the answer is yes but I strongly recommend adjusting contrast instead of doing it from scratch.
@@TonyDae you can just put the v-gamut primaries and V-log transfer "input color space" (right click on the file, not timeline) if you have Color managed YRGB space in project settings.
@@lolerie I'm aware of that.
I don't understand why your highlights are showing up at 100IRE. That should not happen with Vlog if exposed correctly. Maybe around 75-80.
I didn't shoot the footage.
Thank You Sir, my color space was incorrect
Taking tomorrow’s filmmakers color course, and this was totally left out.
Oh well… thanks!
Interesting... color management is the most basic part of color correction for log. Strange it wasn't included.
@@TonyDae thankfully you had me covered (though does take away from having an all in once course)
Yea this is the difference between your average crappy LOG footage and some real nuanced top shelf LOG... I'm sure your bog standard S-Log or whatever won't show drastic improvement via a CST versus a basic contrast/sat bump, but full V-LOG is a whole big beast that needs to be treated appropriately from a color management perspective. If you don't want to muck with CSTs, Panasonic has other profiles better suited to that: Cinelike-D for example.
There's nothing really wrong with slog, slog2, or slog3. They require similar treatment like vlog not knowing this is why many people who don't know how to correct color properly complained about Sony color until sgamut3.cine. large gamut color spaces that are dissimilar to rec709 need a proper transform before being graded regardless of the brand. And if it's done right, most log results in similar output color.
Arri Wide gamut gets a good reputation for the same reason sgamut3.cine does... They are designed with primaries closer to rec709 than most wide gamut color spaces. These work fine with basic adjustments and some in the community, often inexperienced with color correction, expect this with all log.
im a year late, but this was very helpful. thanks
ok i just try in raw tab
great!
Hey Tony my name is Benjamin i watch your video so i will like to learn more so can you send me the link
i don't know nothing about Davinci color editing Please, i hope you can help me.
Only adding the Color space transformer makes the footage exactly the same as I see it with my eyes!
I didn't have to color grade it!
This is weird and cool.
Is this possible in Adobe premier?
You can use Davinci Resolve to create a transform LUT like this and then import that to Premiere.
Can I do this in Premiere?