Exactly-you don’t need a tire that can do 600 mph-you want a tire that handles the best at 50-80 mph, slips the least in the rain, and does ok with snow… In audio-you don’t need noise and distortion at -130 dB. You need good body in the midrange, and good handling of micro and macro dynamics so that the listener hears a realistic rendering of a live performance… and if you can get that with distortion and noise at -95 dB that’s gonna be great.
I am in the market for something affordable $500 ish and below. Fairly new to desktop audio but I am looking for something that will last me a long time and the more the value for money the better. Could you recommend any?
@@wana.me003 I’m just getting back into the hobby after not paying attention for about 20 years. front ends in general have undergone a massive change. I’m starting to think I don’t like Delta sigma DACs - which is the technology being used by all of these incredibly cheap dacs. I am probably going to take the recommendation of the founder of Qualio Audio and get the LAiV harmony-but that’s being described as “budget” at $2700 by the high end folks. I never considered anything over $1k to be “budget”, but that’s Just me, lol-I feel like that old guy from Brooklyn that used to say “I remember when that used to cost a nickel!” Anyway, in short I am not familiar with the sub 500 DAC market and one new thing I seem to be seeing in audio is that gone are the days when you can just go down to a dealer and listen to some equipment and see if you like it!! What the hell?!
Whatever floats your boat. Back in the 90's, I was pretty happy with the sound of my Marantz CD94 + external DAC. By today's standards, it didn't sound very good. And it definitely sounds worse than a high end ring DAC like the dcs Rossini. Or an MSB or Esoteric for that matter. I totally agree with using your ears to appreciate a sound, instead of some numbers on paper. I am puzzled with people who say that numbers define how good something sounds. There are amplifiers which measure similar and sound quite different.
Another home run video. Ultra complete clear explanations. Unmatched editing. Subjective and objective clarifications. Best video on under $1,000 DACs. Nice job Lachlan.
Thanks!🎧 Because you take the time to read and respond to comments. When comments, like mine, are written with earnest, you reply in kind. So you get a superthanks which I rarely do.
Changed my D90 mk2 for a Holo Cyan 2. The difference is night and day. Hi-fi gear should be optimized to sound good, not for measurements. But there is a market for everything, I guess. And that’s fine.
Very well said. If some people buy a DAC to read measurements from the manual, then they should absolutely stick with DACs that measure best. I prefer to listen to music: that's why I choose a DAC which sounds great.
As an alternative, they could just buy the manual. Much cheaper, full of numbers, sometimes even graphs on semilogarithmic axes. It would spare them the embarrassment of actually listening to their well-measuring DAC and tell their friends that it is the best of the world, risking their reputation if only one of their friends has ever heard the sound of a high end setup.
As a first time, viewer to your channel, I enjoyed your comprehensive review of these Dacs.. Interesting indeed thanks for posting. I’ll be back. KCB👍.
While I enjoy a comprehensive DAC video as much as the next person, there is one particular characteristic that ALL dacs do differently and that I wish was mentioned more. What I'm talking about is the DAC's ability to realize accurate and enjoyable timbre, and what its perceivable influnce on the chain is as a whole. Not many people are willing to "roll" DACs to get their desired sound and a good percentage of us probably don't want to dig down that deep. But my point is that the DAC plays a huge part in whether or not someone can enjoy their listening experience, and having a source converting digi to analog that isn't palpable to certain people is a huge dealbreaker. People that mainly listen to speakers probably would notice this less, as the speaker plays a bigger roll in influencing the music than little drivers next to your ears do. I can notice very small changes in detail and resolution with my headphones far easier than speakers. Anyways my point being that the DAC's timbre reproduction is more important than minor distinctions in detail, soundstage, tonality, IMHO.
Yes, "Synergy" is a major factor, IMO. IOW, placing a clean, linear, and revealing DAC (or "sterile" in a negative connotation) in front of a "ditto" amp - and using them with bright HPs or speakers is really too much of one sound signature, IMO - one that makes newer enthusiasts dissatisfied all the time. I have a "neutral - but not bright/harsh" DAC, paired with a "neutral - but not bright/harsh, punchy and dynamic, and "excellently timbred" BAL Class A HP amp - all driving primarily revealing but bright-ish Hifiman Arya Stealths and HE-1000 Stealths. The combo is utterly life-like and "addicting", IMO - especially after my HP amp reaches thermal equilibrium......
I agree. The challenge is that the timbre of a DAC is relative to the overall source chain (as @Ezees23 said). It's impossible to say which DAC ACTUALLY does timbre correctly because it can depend on the amp and headphones/speakers it's paired with.
So basically it's an engineering flex by Topping. Ultra low distortion numbers has kind of been their thing though, hasn't it? Other companies started number chasing and Topping didn't want to be outdone.
Thanks for taking a complex subject and explaining the subtle differences on a way that can be easily understood. I have a Bifrost 2/64 and I love it! One of the main points I got from this video is don't just look at measurements, look at the measurements from what you can really hear.
That's exactly it! I'm glad it was helpful. Most amps and ALL headphones and speakers will produce a bunch more distortion than the DACs so their distortion numbers are irrelevant after a point.
Awesome video! Thanks! I’ve got the e70 velvet that I keep in rotation. I believe it’s the AKM 4499ex. I really like the sound running 2 g’horns in mono with q acoustic 3030i’s. Great synergy with this combo. Also, I’ll run it with my musical fidelity A1, but not the same synergy as the Schiit. The A1 is special, but new to me. I’m still working out differences with different gear, but I know it’ll be a keeper.
I use both and disagree completely. With the right headphone amp and headphones, I find I get more insight from headphones because they are not influenced by the room and are more resolving of the fine details because the sound is firing straight into your ears without dropping off as it passes through the air.
@@PassionforSound Your 100% correct! The main difference is, is that your taking the room out of the equation when using headphones. You really do get 2 different experiences that can't be compared. It's apples to oranges in a way. Both have their upsides, and downsides. I do enjoy listening to music best via open air as apposed to using headphones of any type. You just get a more robust, and natural sounding experience that can't be matched if tuned right. Everything else you said about headphones is spot on in your detail!
I do like Steve (Zeos) from Z reviews, and that is something I could see him saying that in a way. However, check my response to @PassionforSound below in his response to you for further explanation of what you say Steve said, and why he is wrong to an extent if what you say is true.
@@r423fplip r2r is different. Mostly personal prefference. D2r is just Delta Sigma. but never the less i'd be interested in the review. Some say it is great, others say it has a darker sound to it and slightly veiled
Outstanding as always Lachlan. I was recently in the market for a less than $1000 DAC and narrowed my list down to the Topping D70 Pro Octo and the Denafrips ENYO 15th. After reading many reviews and watching many RUclips videos I settled on the Denafrips ENYO 15th. I really liked the Octo but the R2R topology seemed more to my liking sound wise. The ENYO 15th sounds utterly amazing in my system. Thank you and keep up the great work.
It is just a same that (believe all) the Denafrips aren't supposed to have both outputs (rca and xlr) hooked up at the same time. And i want it to go to my power amp and a headphone amp.. or else i'd have to place an other pre amp in the line.
Thank you for the review! Very pertinent to have compared it with the Topping D70 Pro Octo(8*CS43198), would be interesting to compare the Octo with SMSL DO200 Pro(12*CS43131) and SMSL DL100(4*CS43131). :)
Me too! I am looking real hard at that D70 Pro Octo, along with the LOXJIE D40 Pro. These two would be a great addition to my rig due to the different sound signatures of these DAC's that would be very synergistic with my system. I am also very curious in the SMSL DO200 Pro, and SMSL DL100 as well because of the great things I have heard about the D70 Pro Octo. If they contain most the same goodness as the D70 Pro Octo, they would be a hit!
Great review, thanks for the time to do it. I've enjoyed a number of your reviews/discussions, but this one made me subscribe. Also, I love the hoodie. Thanks for talking about audio and gear the way you do and also having a sense of humor about it.
Excellent, insightful and very comprehensive review, thank you. Would love to get your impressions on an Okto Research Dac 8 stereo if you ever got your hands on one 🙏🏼👍🏼
Measurements are great! But, since I can't have a listening experience with most DAC's out there, I have to rely on reviews from reputable YT content providers for input. So, I mostly make my purchasing decisions from reviews of products that have a great chance of enhancing my audio listening experience from such people. It doesn't take long to have a list of content providers that have great review videos. So far I have made great decisions without any real issues. My listening experience continues to expand with excitement every single day.
Which dac / headphone amp would you recommend for mixing mastering ? Obviously it has to be the most transparent possible to monitor accurately… can go up to 5k€, Ty
Sorry! Not sure how I made that mistake. If you're after an all-in-one type unit, you don't need to climb too high for a solid option for monitoring, but something like the FiiO K19 could be a great choice. Some of the minor annoyances I shared in this video have already been fixed via firmware: ruclips.net/video/D1Fd5yZWNfc/видео.htmlsi=Eqghkjq6igoul149
If it's in budget, the Chord TT2 is actually probably the most resolving and transparent device you can buy (without going way over budget). Its analog stage is ridiculously transparent and its DAC is going to deliver more accurate timbre and timing information than most others on the market.
Lachlan, another great video!! I personally often reach for the track Spiral Stairs by Mammal Hands when I am searching to differentiate between digital devices. Somehow it seems to accentuate any differences particularly in the background part of the music and whether it tends to overshadow the main saxophone theme. Carry on with your great work though. Nick
I don't think that's a fair statement because we don't actually know what the true sound from the original mixing/mastering was meant to sound like. The 0.0001% differences in THD are not altering the sound in any meaningful way for reference monitoring so the sound character is coming from the choices of output stage op-amps, capacitors, resistors and other components in the signal path. Who can say which combination is the closest to the truth?
I'm suggesting that every part of the sound chain influences what the sound engineer heard so unless you can put the two DACs in the same chain that he/she used to mix the album, it's really impossible to know and we are probably better off just focusing on what we enjoy.
Good review as always but why would you leave out the Denafrips Ares 2 in this price range comparison? Many, many people think of that as the product to beat in this range.
I found it made everything too soft and lost the sense of rhythm and energy in the music. It will of course depend on the rest of the components used. I didn't have any particularly aggressive or energetic gear that would balance it more to my overall preferences.
Measurements shmeasurements. These chifi companies care so much about THD, but how a single sine wave measures doesn’t capture all aspects of audio quality. They ignore other important factors, like intermodulation distortion, phase response, transient response, and jitter.
Multitone distorsion is down at -130dB, jitter is down -140dB, linearity is perfect and IMD is VERY low. If you want anything else than perfect, just admit you want coloring in your sound (which you can introduce elsewhere other than a DAC)
@@PassionforSoundsure, but since the user mentioned some characteristics that influence sound i replied with the measurements of these characteristics. Please state some other characteristics that influence sound so that we can compare. Otherwise it's just psychological.
Happy to agree that the Topping 90 III Sabre isn't going to make that much of an impression but from what I hear the new Topping D90 III discrete is a whole different kettle of fish - So I'm afraid that your only 3 month old review is already out of date ! . . . Sorry . . . . But can't wait to hear your review of the D90 III discrete 🙂
I need to get my hands on that one. Topping gear is such a mixed bag with some being amazing and others being just ok. I wonder what the D90D will be like?
For single-ended RCA outputs, 2V max is generally the standard, but for XLR outputs, 4V is roughly the industry standard, even for "pro" gear like sound boards. I'm not sure why or where some of these manufacturers are using 5V.
Yes, the 4V standard is XLR - sorry that I didn't specify that. The Topping DACs offer 2V or 2.5V options for RCA. As for why, I believe it's all a pursuit of better measurements for marketing.
Hi, Topping D90SE vs D90 III, which in your opinion is the better of the these two DACs? How do you compare either of these models to Denafrips Pontus 12th and or 15th edition? Thanks in advance.
The D90 range to date (excluding the brand new discrete one that I'm yet to hear) are all pretty similar sounding. The Denafrips are an extremely different sounding DAC - much smoother and fuller with much more depth in the soundstage.
Your description of this DAC matches very closely my reasons why I ditched Topping DACs long ago as an option to accompany my three systems. In time I also discovered that I very much preferred the less accurate but way more natural sound of the R2R Denafrips DACs. More natural voices, instruments, space, great image and fantastic soundstage, if I would ever venture to try something different, it would either be a Holo or a bifrost, and I would be hesitant to cross the 2K mark.
Given all the reviews the last couple of years, and while there are some good R2R options below and around a grand, which may need a pre to boost output voltage, I see no compelling reason to replace my Topping d70s. Not as deep a stage as R2R but not completely 2D either. Still a good option inbetween R2R and chip based.
If I had to replace, I would consider Geshelli or Schiit. I also have an Aune X18th with upgraded Sparkos chip and an Aune linear power supply that performs well, just as well as the D70s, if not a bit more exciting.
Hi! Would love your opinion. I currently have a Topping E50/L50 stack driving a HD800S and a LCD-X both of which sound glorious with eq. Do you have any suggestions for an upgrade? I think $2k max would be my limit. Thank you for the vids!
There are a few ways you could go. A Chord Hugo 2 would be brilliant if you're ok with an all-in-one. Alternatively, the Geshelli DACs and amps are brilliant as are the Schiit Bifrost 2 and a Jotunheim or Midgard. I've got a list of recommended products in the description you can also check out.
Just a note on your editing. It seems you like have the background music set on like an auto volume that raises when you take a break between sentences or something, because when you take a pause it jumps in volume for half a second and it's really jarring. Dunno if it's just me, but it'd be nice if that didn't happen. Otherwise, great video as always!
I was interested in the octo but an headfier told me that it plays well only track with a few instruments, in busy track it seems that it suffer... May it be possible? And please try also these dacs also with a ddc , I'm waiting for my denafrips iris 12th and I wonder if I can appreciate an increase in quality.
A DDC will almost always improve the sound compared to a direct USB connection. As for the OCTO struggling with busy passages, higher end DACs will do better, but at the level of the OCTO, D90 III, DAC-Z8, etc. I've not noticed any lack of separation/resolution, etc. from the OCTO.
We are now in the era that even cheap budget DAC that inaudible distortion rate. No human being can hear the distortion difference between 0.0005% and 0.00008%. It is now more about what features, quality HP amp, customer support and design. Interesting era we now live in..
Actually, a well known Japanese producer of hi-end components has a better definition for a USB cable: "The best way known to man to inject noise into a converter".
@@DaveJ6515 no, it's not. It's more transparent than anything else in any system. If it sounds flat then it's A) the recordings B) your amp C) your loudspeakers Absolutely no evidence of a lack of dynamics. The dynamic range is vastly better than almost any loudspeaker on the market
@@Hirnlego999 You don’t know what you are talking about. There IS noise, you can’t avoid it. Too bad being a fanboy makes people ignore plain Physics. Also, I am very happy of my setup, rest assured it sounds very well. But I won’t be inventing absurdities like “there’s no noise”. Noise is everywhere, you just can’t avoid it. You can limit it, you can reduce it, but it is there. If the (criticality acclaimed) Topping sounds dynamic to you, wait until you hear a real high end DAC, with an appropriate amplifier of course.
Measurements do not equal sound quality. Some of the gear I own measures incredibly bad according to the clowns over at ASR, maybe they should listen to the gear they measure?
You're right. And the reason for that is he makes no attempt whatsoever to do anything that remotely resembles science. Fastest way to build a youtube channel is by telling people what they want to hear. If you want to shut down an ASR clown and have a good laugh, thy this. Just ask them to pick any video they want from ASR's youtube channel, and point out a single instance where he does something that would qualify as science. You'll never get an answer. Going by the name of the channel, you should be able to pick any video at random to answer the question I just asked.
Ha Ha! I made a comment on I think the latest Paul McGowan video about the sound of i2s. My takeaway was that it was system dependent, and one of the ASR clowns did not like that, telling me my gear was broken, because all DACs sound the same. He claimed to be an audio engineer. More like an audio clown.
It really does seem Wavetheory's view of the A90D rings true. It measure laughably good and is the ultimate test/comparison rig. But it comes across as boring. Some will love what it does, but I while I think the SMSL D1SE I have is a bit better, well definitely better as it gives some stage depth. Just listen to Jazz at the Pawshop to know how much a flat stage would sound boring. His description near the end about how it behaves like a dynamic driver takes a little thinking, but in the end makes sense. I wont go into detail here, but check it out at 30 mins. This is a great review Lachlan. Very clear and when you listen to critics of Topping, also makes sense. My next DAC with definitely not be a ESS without some custom programming like Chord or Shiit, the likes of Ferrum is beyond my budget. I still cannot think an R2R is my next DAC, something the Holo Cyan or Gustard R26.
Thank you for explaining differences between specs and actual sound. Ive seen you state in a few videos you think bifrost is best dac under 1k. Even the geshelli (great review by the way). Do you think bifrost is better than denafrips at same price point too?
I am a big fan of your channel. Have you compared different I2S HDMI cables? I think you´ve been using the HDMI Supra, same as I use currently but you may have compared with some others? Not sure if spending kind of 500 euros in Tubulus cables will give a clear upgrade. thank you
Hi Lachlan from Northern California!! First off... another outstanding review video 🎉👍👋👌!! I'm still using first generation Topping D90 w/Singxer SU-2. Per your advice waiting on funds to do D90-III and SU-6 together. The trigger on of D90-III is a key feature needed in my system to allow me to turn on only 2-chnl gear without turning on complete surround system. I've been happy with my Parasound amps downstream adding warmth to the Topping sound. Thank you for your continued excellence of your channel!!!
Your description of the Bifrost 2 64 is very much aligned with how I feel about my Bifrost 2 (not 64). BF2 to me sounded like I'm standing very close to the stage which is 1.5m height, separated by a black thin veil that I can only see the silhouettes of the performers. It sounded less in the face, but it creates a very interesting "depth" and imaging that the band who are performing behind that veil are not standing in a horizontal line, like you said in a fairly intimate space (in a slightly lit, small and classy show to me). It has a slightly warm/dark sound because of the music is being performed behind that veil (fabric), that's just how I feel. I didn't like the BF2 at 1st impression because it took away the energy/fun I had with the Fostex HP-A4BL on some songs. But after testing more songs, I realised that Fostex DAC/Amp were bottlenecking my TH900MK2 because of how shouty it was, in every frequencies. BF2 showed what my headphone were capable of by creating such distinct depth. The bass is slightly less in volume, but deeper (like Sony Z1R bass kind of sense). Treble is still very high but instead of pointy sharp kind, it got shaved down to a curve shape, a very high poorly designed speed bump. (EQed that in the end) Overall BF2 went well with my Topping A90. A90 provides the power. Bifrost 2 does the magic, giving the energetic TH900MK2 a sense of maturity, or refinement. Now the other question for me and I'm not sure if you can answer it is: Should I upgrade from Bifrost 2 to Bifrost 2 64? A hefty price to upgrade considering the module + shipping to Aus (yes I'm in Melbourne also).
I would definitely recommend the upgrade to the 2/64. I don't really see any downside and plenty of upsides, unless you specifically want a slightly darker/smoother sound. The 2/64 version still remains the best sub-$1000 USD DAC I've tried.
@@PassionforSound Thanks. I was wondering if it's worth paying 350USD (~500 AUD) to upgrade since from I've read around it was mostly just differences instead of a clear upgrade. I'll have a look at it again. If only AddictedtoAudio has the upgrade module, would have saved the shipping cost.
@yuunashiki unlikely it would cost less from Addicted to Audio. They add significant margin onto Schiit products. I can understand your hesitation and the differences aren't night and day, but they are clear and significant IMO. Another option would be to wait for the new Gungnir DAC which will be more expensive still and larger, but should offer even better sound.
Waiting on the 16 dac chip DAC 😂 A fantastic test track for DACs is: OoOo - whereismylove? Tests ambiance, panning, layered whispers, a figure 8 pan, cymbal shimmer, placement and staging of various guitars and claps which come and go with specific placement for introduction in the mix.
So i have a very old headphone amplifier the fiio e09k very powerful for my headphone. I'm thinking i need a upgrade not sure if i should just upgrade the dac only since amp drive all my headphones. Or i really da need a overall upgrade.
A good amp from a while back will still be a good amp. I'd start with the DAC and then see if you feel like the amp is scaling up with the new DAC. If not much improves, then swap out the amp next. 🙂
Exactly: when I worked in a hi-fi shop (40 years ago) the boss said: always show the numbers (when they are good): numbers sell much better than demoing the component. When you demo it, nobody is totally happy, but when they see numbers to show to their friends, that's much easier!
@@DaveJ6515 Yah I like to see specs and measurements because they are an indicator of the performance of the equipment, but ultimately, for entertainment purposes, we have to enjoy how it sounds.
Great video showing that after a point, chasing THD and SINAD is just trying to win points from Amir at Audio Science Review, when for the rest of us, it is sound quality, ease of use, and support (both during and after the warranty period) that means more. I love DACs that have a nice display of data rate and bit-depth coming in, but think I could live with the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 and be happy...maybe get a streamer with a display for eye candy instead. I know some would argue it isn't high end, but I could see myself using a WiiM Ultra's USB out into a Bifrost 2/64 (getting any jitter and noise reduced by the Bifrost) and calling it a day. I know, I know. Some say you have to spend $2K to $5K to get a proper DAC. I say, well, it depends.
Who is the rest of us ? Arrogant. My system I’m using is built on performance, the numbers. It’s sounds insane. Don’t put your head in the sand. Next thing it will be how a usb cable makes a difference.
@@r423fplip if you follow ASR I guess you like overly bright strident fingernails on a chalkboard sound. No thanks. At some point they are measuring the noise in their measuring equipment and any rankings or such don't mean beans. I mean I'll take a $8000 Mola Mola over a $200 Topping all day, even if the Topping supposedly measures "better".
This is a dedicated DAC right? Does that really make a difference versus having a DAC/Amp combo? It’s hard to understand without having owned these kinds of devices.
A dedicated DAC and amp will almost always beat an equivalent price/level integrated/all-in-one. I disagree that there is a single path to building a system. After years of experience, I find the bottleneck in a system can be anywhere and matching every component to the approximate same performance level is important. There's no point having a pair of $4,000 headphones connected to a DAC and amp worth $2,000 combined. You'd be better spending $2,000 on each item (as a rough example).
Right now I'm using a E50 with my A70 pro, and its great, but I want the stack, so I'm saving up for the Octo. Spending £900 for this D90 III is just pointless when the D70 pro exists.
Fair review, thanks. Often think there's a serious disconnect between how Topping gear actually sounds...and the reviews this junk so often gets. Deffo some shilling going on from many "respected" reviewers.
Just last night I saw a review of the Topping D90 mk III vs the SMSL equivalent with AKM 4499EX chips. In the mix was another British DAC, a brand I never heard of before and which was physically much larger and far more expensive. He also provided some A-B comparisons with copyright-free music. I think it would be cool and helpful if you could do a shootout like that but with more relatable music, understanding of course that one is limited due to copyright infringement. I always thought the AK4499EX was going to be superior to the equivalent Sabre chips. After what I heard last night I’m not so sure anymore.
It's about a lot more than the chip, although I've found that the ceiling of the 4499EX chips is higher than the Sabre chips when it comes to soundstage depth. As for doing this type of recording comparison, I think it's a really poor idea. I'm pretty sure that I saw the video too (haven't finished it yet, but saved it to watch later) and while the idea is excellent, the practical execution is likely impossible. I say that because our ears are incredibly sensitive to timing accuracy and that tends to be the separation point between good DACs and exceptional DACs. All modern DACs reproduce the frequency response perfectly. The problem arises when you record the outputs from the DACs and try to test them. Passing the outputted signals through a microphone and analog-to-digital converter (ADC) will likely lose some timing resolution from what's heard in the room. Then, during playback your source chain (anyone's source chain) will further alter the reproduction of the sound, ESPECIALLY if your source chain isn't one with outstanding timing accuracy. In other words, the entire recording and playback chain is negating the differences between the DACs in most cases. The presenter of the video alluded to that in the introduction, but perhaps understated it a bit.
@@PassionforSound I get you and I respect your answer. I could never have explained it that well but I know that any A-B testing will only be as good as the input recording on your end and the output listening gear on my end. My DAC, my amp, my headphones. The video which I believe we have both seen and heard demonstrated such a significant contrast between the Sabre and the AKM chip that it made me wonder how they pulled it off. Anyway, your descriptions of what you hear when doing reviews are more than sufficient for us the viewers to understand what’s what.
I am going to pump the brakes on DAC jumping for a while and stick with the Cyan 2 Schiit has this DAC implementation coming out soon and Chord has been using it Also, the digital amplifiers from Technics and Marantz are impressive as they don’t have DACs they inherently convert everything into digital I have a Technics digital amplifier and color me impressed Chord has a new DAC in the pipeline Bottom line for me is sit tight and see how things shake out over the next year or few
I have a d70 pro sabre which also sounded flat but the moment I switched to using a coaxial cable instead of a usb cable coming from my Bluesound n130 the music opened up. Way more soundstage, more warmth, detail, holographic etc all got better. I couldn't believe what I heard and i never looked back to USB. I am convinced the coaxial output N130) and/or input (d70) sound better than USB.
I believe you, but the problem with your statement is it takes a lot more than 1 example to show any type of trend. Also, sounds better is subjective. Not everyone will get the same results as you. In a different situation, you could just as easily pick the opposite. Nit picking aside, you're going about it the right way. Listen and pick whatever sounds best to you.
Yeah I agree. However, It seems that our beloved reviewers never state or show in their reviews that they have used a coaxial cable. But solely base their opinions on soundquality they get from USB or in this case I²S. I wonder why that is. The more because (n=1) in my case the improvement is so big. And even more because I was taught, and I get this might be controversial, that coaxial is superior to USB.
The challenge with this is that it also depends on the source device. A great, clean USB connection can be better than a coaxial connection. Likewise, sometimes optical is better. You'll find in many of my DAC reviews, I will discuss if there is any obvious difference in the performance of the various inputs (based on using the same output device - a Singxer SU-6 - for consistency). In this review, there was too much else to cover to highlight all the inputs (other than the IIS noise)
IMHO, the only way for human beings to accurately judge the fidelity of an electronic component is through a good recording of vocals and acoustic instruments. This is because we intuitively know how a person's voice should sound. What an acoustic guitar, or a piano, or violin, or a saxophone, etc. should sound like, their sounds being highly distinctive and based in physical reality. Which is why good reviewers frequently listen to live music played through acoustic instruments. Whereas electronic instruments have no inherent connection to reality. Their sound can be easily manipulated. So there's no objective point of reference. This is not to say that 'electronic' music is in and of itself invalid. Just that it is insufficient for truly accurate evaluation of electronics. In addition, when singers sing and acoustic instruments are played, they create a space around them which we can sense, thus the soundstage becomes a factor in the believability of the recording. The current lack of a believable soundstage with height and depth along with width is IMO where the great majority of inexpensive components have yet to measure up. Physical reality is the only objective standard of measure. This holds true whatever our personal preferences, whatever our priorities in the musical qualities; whether resolution, tonality, 'airiness', etc...
Nice one. I personally wouldn’t touch anything Topping (or products from any measurement leading company) with a 10 foot pole. Some of it might sound fine, but life is just too short to waste my time like that. Not laying down the law, just my personal take.
@@PassionforSound Thanks. Yeah, I’m sure and my point was not to suggest there wasn’t 😊 But I would rather spend my time shopping products, where I know listening > measurements. Secondarily, I’d rather support companies that don’t push the measurement narrative.
Good afternoon from Toronto 🫖 I’ve given up the DAC war ..I’m sticking with my Denafrips Ares 12-1 …and I’m good …. If you chase the zeros..you might miss the whole experience. Take care .
@@robertlogue3794 Good ..however Vinshine has now moved away from Denafrips and will be honoring warranties and service. Shipping was fast and the unit has just been a stunner .
Didn't you recently talk about reviewing products that you will enjoy? What a pleasure it was to review this product which was quite similar to others, but basically the most boring one? What you've described is just another piece of dry, flat, clean -digitaly crappy sounding DAC that belongs in the trash can and not on the hi-fi rack. This measurements 0.0000 are worth 0 and are good for those ones who were never to some live, unpluged sessions or concerts to have a clue how a real instruments should sound.
@@PassionforSound Actually a good excuse for constant opportunism :) Jay's Iyagi made a wise decision about this "all the same sounding DAC's" and lifted his credibitlity, I guess ;)
I would have loved to have heard opinions based on actual HiFi use, not headphones. Sure headphones can be resolving, but even in proffesional mastering many are turning to plug ins because even the best planar headphones simply cannot do soundstage depth because headphone use puts the sound inside your head and need a plug in to trick the brain into sound being in front of them. The soundstage depth and image placement are important to me, as is bass weight and texture/definition. Headphones are simply too limiting. Though many youtube reviewers also have limiting systems. You also come across as more biased toward one product due to simply being a fan of that product. At least one other DAC along the lines of the Schiit could have been welcome and broke that feeling of one actual DAC against a few do it all DAC/Pre items. Sadly there is a lot of competition in that price point, I would also like to know how it compares to the CA CX100 streaming dac as an example, or SMSL, yet key points for me are AES, I2S, and balanced output, we then have the issue of money going innto a pre out stage and is that detracting from audio quality. Denafrips and Schiit are two well reviewed products with no pre amp function, and possibly that purist single minded goal is helping to produce that more refined product where that analogue output stage is more developed? I want to hear into the mix, but I also want weight, body, and depth to the image, texture in those lowest notes. I am still running 90's digital tech simply because it has that sound, modern dacs seem to be getting more resolution with a lower noise floor yet a single dimensional soundstage more like comparing a water colour to an oil painting, yet your not hearing a noise floor even on many old tech items.
I'm not sure which DAC you feel I'm biased towards because I say great things about both the D70 Pro OCTO and the Schiit Bifrost 2. I think both are excellent and both provide exactly what you're looking for, especially the Bifrost 2 so your complaint leaves me a bit confused. As for speakers vs headphones, you can tell just as much, if not more, about a DAC with an excellent headphone amp and headphones compared to a speaker setup. If you have a headphone amp that limits staging (as the majority do) then this will limit what you can perceive, but that's not the case here.
So was a scientific double blind test also done by AS to prove the listening differences between .000007 and .00007? or whatever powers of 10 they measured.
If I see another clickbait headline for a Chinese manufacturer's new product that sounds exactly like their old product with a higher price tag and 2dB less distortion I'm gonna fucking lose it
Technically Topping has reached….according to them the pinnacle of DAC technology years ago. So why make another DAC? Such BS Good luck on returning it if there is an issue , or them honoring any warranty. More landfill
When I hear that the soundstage is flat and 2 dimensional (dry, sharp), my conclusion is that the product is simply over-engineered crap, regardless of price. It means non-linear distortion and compression, usually unmeasurable by typical sinewave, and often caused by electronics, design and parts used. Often the cheaper simpler designs are much better sounding, after taking care of some modern design bs, like transistor muting. This SINAD race BS is also getting annoying, because it means absolutely nothing in terms of audio signal transparency/purity, and in 99% of cases actually means suffocated sound. The common misconceptions about some of these terms used by everybody ain't helping either.
I have Topping D90SE , Topping E70 Velvet, and Naim DAC R2R PCM1704k. For me in my system the winner still NAIM. Naim DAC has R2R , very nice natural sound , 3D sound stage . 👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋
Well…….THAT specific DAC may measure well. But we all know that it could well be a ‘ golden sample’, since so many people including myself have bought Topping and the sound is either bad or meh. On top of that their gear breaks down way too often.
It didn't come from Topping so they wouldn't have had any influence over the unit picked to send to me. The reality is that many of the Topping DACs just aren't inspiring because they're built to specs, not to sound (as far as I can tell)
@@PassionforSound yeah man that’s fine. No worries. ASR is basically their marketing campaign anyway, so they started the whole measurements to the nth degree thing. I too like good measuring gear as well. But I do want it to sound good as well. Both can go hand in hand. And I’ll just say it straight out….i don’t trust Topping. They are in a country with vastly different business practices , so I’m not naive to that fact even though that is verboten to somehow say nowadays. So many of their products are faulty, you can’t return them, and everything in between. I prefer a company that I can at least have some say in if they rip me off. Hope all that made sense. Cheers
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Exactly-you don’t need a tire that can do 600 mph-you want a tire that handles the best at 50-80 mph, slips the least in the rain, and does ok with snow…
In audio-you don’t need noise and distortion at -130 dB. You need good body in the midrange, and good handling of micro and macro dynamics so that the listener hears a realistic rendering of a live performance… and if you can get that with distortion and noise at -95 dB that’s gonna be great.
I am in the market for something affordable $500 ish and below. Fairly new to desktop audio but I am looking for something that will last me a long time and the more the value for money the better. Could you recommend any?
@@wana.me003 I’m just getting back into the hobby after not paying attention for about 20 years. front ends in general have undergone a massive change. I’m starting to think I don’t like Delta sigma DACs - which is the technology being used by all of these incredibly cheap dacs.
I am probably going to take the recommendation of the founder of Qualio Audio and get the LAiV harmony-but that’s being described as “budget” at $2700 by the high end folks. I never considered anything over $1k to be “budget”, but that’s Just me, lol-I feel like that old guy from Brooklyn that used to say “I remember when that used to cost a nickel!”
Anyway, in short I am not familiar with the sub 500 DAC market and one new thing I seem to be seeing in audio is that gone are the days when you can just go down to a dealer and listen to some equipment and see if you like it!! What the hell?!
Whatever floats your boat. Back in the 90's, I was pretty happy with the sound of my Marantz CD94 + external DAC. By today's standards, it didn't sound very good. And it definitely sounds worse than a high end ring DAC like the dcs Rossini. Or an MSB or Esoteric for that matter.
I totally agree with using your ears to appreciate a sound, instead of some numbers on paper. I am puzzled with people who say that numbers define how good something sounds. There are amplifiers which measure similar and sound quite different.
Very well said, my friend.
But what is a realistic rendition? Saying that doesn't necessarily answer any questions lol
Another home run video. Ultra complete clear explanations. Unmatched editing. Subjective and objective clarifications. Best video on under $1,000 DACs. Nice job Lachlan.
you stole my words 😂 so i have to agree
Thank you! I'm glad you liked it!! 🙂🙂
Thanks!🎧 Because you take the time to read and respond to comments. When comments, like mine, are written with earnest, you reply in kind. So you get a superthanks which I rarely do.
Thank you so much, Willie! Your contribution is greatly appreciated. 🙏♥️
Changed my D90 mk2 for a Holo Cyan 2. The difference is night and day. Hi-fi gear should be optimized to sound good, not for measurements. But there is a market for everything, I guess. And that’s fine.
Very well said. If some people buy a DAC to read measurements from the manual, then they should absolutely stick with DACs that measure best.
I prefer to listen to music: that's why I choose a DAC which sounds great.
As an alternative, they could just buy the manual. Much cheaper, full of numbers, sometimes even graphs on semilogarithmic axes. It would spare them the embarrassment of actually listening to their well-measuring DAC and tell their friends that it is the best of the world, risking their reputation if only one of their friends has ever heard the sound of a high end setup.
Night and day, that old classic.😂
As a first time, viewer to your channel,
I enjoyed your comprehensive review of these Dacs..
Interesting indeed thanks for posting. I’ll be back.
KCB👍.
I'm so glad you liked it! Hope to see you here again. 🙂
As an expert on Topping Dacs, did you have a chance to listen to the D900 III Discreet ? And if so, will you review it ?
It's just arrived and I will definitely be reviewing it as soon as I can.
The best measuring DAC, not the best DAC. Their target audience has always been folks who measure hardware, not folks who listen to music.
Because the latter is highly subjective.
@@bc8Sooners but highly important.
@@bc8Sooners Yes, it needs to sound good to me not to show pretty on a graph.
Have you ever bothered listening to Topping equipment? It's fantastic. Stop being an old stick in the mud. Nobody likes that.
@@Audfile as a matter of fact I have and it sounded sterile. Clean but lifeless. Each with their own, I guess. Keep your insults for yourself.
Thanks!
Thank you, Scott!! 🙏♥️
@@PassionforSound Keep the great reviews (non-reviews?) going!
While I enjoy a comprehensive DAC video as much as the next person, there is one particular characteristic that ALL dacs do differently and that I wish was mentioned more. What I'm talking about is the DAC's ability to realize accurate and enjoyable timbre, and what its perceivable influnce on the chain is as a whole. Not many people are willing to "roll" DACs to get their desired sound and a good percentage of us probably don't want to dig down that deep. But my point is that the DAC plays a huge part in whether or not someone can enjoy their listening experience, and having a source converting digi to analog that isn't palpable to certain people is a huge dealbreaker. People that mainly listen to speakers probably would notice this less, as the speaker plays a bigger roll in influencing the music than little drivers next to your ears do. I can notice very small changes in detail and resolution with my headphones far easier than speakers. Anyways my point being that the DAC's timbre reproduction is more important than minor distinctions in detail, soundstage, tonality, IMHO.
Yes, "Synergy" is a major factor, IMO. IOW, placing a clean, linear, and revealing DAC (or "sterile" in a negative connotation) in front of a "ditto" amp - and using them with bright HPs or speakers is really too much of one sound signature, IMO - one that makes newer enthusiasts dissatisfied all the time.
I have a "neutral - but not bright/harsh" DAC, paired with a "neutral - but not bright/harsh, punchy and dynamic, and "excellently timbred" BAL Class A HP amp - all driving primarily revealing but bright-ish Hifiman Arya Stealths and HE-1000 Stealths. The combo is utterly life-like and "addicting", IMO - especially after my HP amp reaches thermal equilibrium......
@@Ezees23I use a rather average little DAC that sounds just fine to me. I EQ headphones to sound good to me on much music.
I agree. The challenge is that the timbre of a DAC is relative to the overall source chain (as @Ezees23 said). It's impossible to say which DAC ACTUALLY does timbre correctly because it can depend on the amp and headphones/speakers it's paired with.
Although I haven't compared, the J2 with upgraded 4499 chip and op amps sounds absolutely incredible
So basically it's an engineering flex by Topping. Ultra low distortion numbers has kind of been their thing though, hasn't it? Other companies started number chasing and Topping didn't want to be outdone.
Thanks for taking a complex subject and explaining the subtle differences on a way that can be easily understood. I have a Bifrost 2/64 and I love it! One of the main points I got from this video is don't just look at measurements, look at the measurements from what you can really hear.
That's exactly it! I'm glad it was helpful.
Most amps and ALL headphones and speakers will produce a bunch more distortion than the DACs so their distortion numbers are irrelevant after a point.
Must swap the opamp to sparkos to really hear any improvements with delta sigma dacs. But still way behind r2r dacs.
Is that easily done in the D90 III? I've not opened it up.
Dream on, r2r nowhere near this dac. You won’t need to change o-amp, waste of time and money.
Awesome video! Thanks! I’ve got the e70 velvet that I keep in rotation. I believe it’s the AKM 4499ex. I really like the sound running 2 g’horns in mono with q acoustic 3030i’s. Great synergy with this combo. Also, I’ll run it with my musical fidelity A1, but not the same synergy as the Schiit. The A1 is special, but new to me. I’m still working out differences with different gear, but I know it’ll be a keeper.
As Z Reviews / Zeos recently discovered, The best way to notice DAC differences is with speakers vs headphones
I use both and disagree completely. With the right headphone amp and headphones, I find I get more insight from headphones because they are not influenced by the room and are more resolving of the fine details because the sound is firing straight into your ears without dropping off as it passes through the air.
😅😅😅@@PassionforSound
@@PassionforSound Your 100% correct! The main difference is, is that your taking the room out of the equation when using headphones. You really do get 2 different experiences that can't be compared. It's apples to oranges in a way. Both have their upsides, and downsides. I do enjoy listening to music best via open air as apposed to using headphones of any type. You just get a more robust, and natural sounding experience that can't be matched if tuned right. Everything else you said about headphones is spot on in your detail!
I do like Steve (Zeos) from Z reviews, and that is something I could see him saying that in a way. However, check my response to @PassionforSound below in his response to you for further explanation of what you say Steve said, and why he is wrong to an extent if what you say is true.
I hope you get the vmv d2r to test, really want to know your thoughts on it. I love the ROHM dac
I'd love to try that too!
R2R, will be nowhere near as good.
@@r423fplip r2r is different. Mostly personal prefference. D2r is just Delta Sigma. but never the less i'd be interested in the review. Some say it is great, others say it has a darker sound to it and slightly veiled
Outstanding as always Lachlan. I was recently in the market for a less than $1000 DAC and narrowed my list down to the Topping D70 Pro Octo and the Denafrips ENYO 15th. After reading many reviews and watching many RUclips videos I settled on the Denafrips ENYO 15th. I really liked the Octo but the R2R topology seemed more to my liking sound wise. The ENYO 15th sounds utterly amazing in my system. Thank you and keep up the great work.
So glad you're loving your chosen DAC!
It is just a same that (believe all) the Denafrips aren't supposed to have both outputs (rca and xlr) hooked up at the same time. And i want it to go to my power amp and a headphone amp.. or else i'd have to place an other pre amp in the line.
I didn't know that about the Denafrips. If that's true, it seems a poor design choice but them to not have independent XLR and RCA output circuits.
Thank you for the review!
Very pertinent to have compared it with the Topping D70 Pro Octo(8*CS43198), would be interesting to compare the Octo
with SMSL DO200 Pro(12*CS43131) and SMSL DL100(4*CS43131). :)
Glad you liked the review. If I happen to get either of those in, I'll gladly do the comparison
Me too! I am looking real hard at that D70 Pro Octo, along with the LOXJIE D40 Pro. These two would be a great addition to my rig due to the different sound signatures of these DAC's that would be very synergistic with my system. I am also very curious in the SMSL DO200 Pro, and SMSL DL100 as well because of the great things I have heard about the D70 Pro Octo. If they contain most the same goodness as the D70 Pro Octo, they would be a hit!
Great review, thanks for the time to do it. I've enjoyed a number of your reviews/discussions, but this one made me subscribe. Also, I love the hoodie. Thanks for talking about audio and gear the way you do and also having a sense of humor about it.
I'm so glad you enjoyed the video! Thanks for subbing!!
I'd like you to try the Cyan 2 NOS and see how you feel about it. I ordered one, but I'm not patient enough to loan it out. 😢
Sadly, I am not able to access Holo Audio gear...
Excellent, insightful and very comprehensive review, thank you. Would love to get your impressions on an Okto Research Dac 8 stereo if you ever got your hands on one 🙏🏼👍🏼
That's one I'm not aware of. I'll have to look into it...
Measurements are great! But, since I can't have a listening experience with most DAC's out there, I have to rely on reviews from reputable YT content providers for input. So, I mostly make my purchasing decisions from reviews of products that have a great chance of enhancing my audio listening experience from such people. It doesn't take long to have a list of content providers that have great review videos. So far I have made great decisions without any real issues. My listening experience continues to expand with excitement every single day.
That's great news. Happy listening!
Which dac / headphone amp would you recommend for mixing mastering ? Obviously it has to be the most transparent possible to monitor accurately… can go up to 5k€, Ty
I'd suggest looking at the HEDDphone 2. They were built for that purpose. ruclips.net/video/trM4zH7UrSY/видео.htmlsi=Fv-vik6Yiitdjz5Q
@@PassionforSound Thanks but I was asking for a DAC, I already have headphones.
Sorry! Not sure how I made that mistake.
If you're after an all-in-one type unit, you don't need to climb too high for a solid option for monitoring, but something like the FiiO K19 could be a great choice. Some of the minor annoyances I shared in this video have already been fixed via firmware: ruclips.net/video/D1Fd5yZWNfc/видео.htmlsi=Eqghkjq6igoul149
@@PassionforSound I could go separate dac amp, I just need to most fidelity possible and no coloration for mixing/ mastering, thanks.
If it's in budget, the Chord TT2 is actually probably the most resolving and transparent device you can buy (without going way over budget). Its analog stage is ridiculously transparent and its DAC is going to deliver more accurate timbre and timing information than most others on the market.
Lachlan, another great video!! I personally often reach for the track Spiral Stairs by Mammal Hands when I am searching to differentiate between digital devices. Somehow it seems to accentuate any differences particularly in the background part of the music and whether it tends to overshadow the main saxophone theme. Carry on with your great work though. Nick
Thanks for the tip, Nick!
actually the D90-III sounds like the best for reference monitor usage when the others for Hi-fi usage
I don't think that's a fair statement because we don't actually know what the true sound from the original mixing/mastering was meant to sound like. The 0.0001% differences in THD are not altering the sound in any meaningful way for reference monitoring so the sound character is coming from the choices of output stage op-amps, capacitors, resistors and other components in the signal path. Who can say which combination is the closest to the truth?
@@PassionforSound the sound engineer on the album can tell us which is closest to the truth.
@munmunyee on which preamp and speakers and in what room?
@@PassionforSound sorry, I'm confused as to what you are trying to convey in your reply to my answer
I'm suggesting that every part of the sound chain influences what the sound engineer heard so unless you can put the two DACs in the same chain that he/she used to mix the album, it's really impossible to know and we are probably better off just focusing on what we enjoy.
Good review as always but why would you leave out the Denafrips Ares 2 in this price range comparison? Many, many people think of that as the product to beat in this range.
Two reasons: 1) I don't own one to include in the comparison. 2) I don't much like the Ares 2 which is partly why I don't own one.
Okay gotcha. What about the Ares do you not like? Not resolving enough?
I found it made everything too soft and lost the sense of rhythm and energy in the music. It will of course depend on the rest of the components used. I didn't have any particularly aggressive or energetic gear that would balance it more to my overall preferences.
good to know. Thanks. Keep up the great work!
Good analogy with the tyres.
I adore my AO-300, which (as the A.O. would suggest) is a lot more than a DAC, but which punches *way* above its $240-USD price tag.
Measurements shmeasurements. These chifi companies care so much about THD, but how a single sine wave measures doesn’t capture all aspects of audio quality. They ignore other important factors, like intermodulation distortion, phase response, transient response, and jitter.
Eh, it's all state of the art. Nothing in the system is as transparent as the DAC. Multitone measurements are perfect as well.
Living in the past. Imagine actually buying a chord dac. When you can get a topping.
Multitone distorsion is down at -130dB, jitter is down -140dB, linearity is perfect and IMD is VERY low.
If you want anything else than perfect, just admit you want coloring in your sound (which you can introduce elsewhere other than a DAC)
@svenskanal except that there's more to sound quality than those statistics and there are other DACs with excellent measurements that sound better.
@@PassionforSoundsure, but since the user mentioned some characteristics that influence sound i replied with the measurements of these characteristics.
Please state some other characteristics that influence sound so that we can compare.
Otherwise it's just psychological.
Happy to agree that the Topping 90 III Sabre isn't going to make that much of an impression but from what I hear the new Topping D90 III discrete is a whole different kettle of fish - So I'm afraid that your only 3 month old review is already out of date ! . . . Sorry . . . . But can't wait to hear your review of the D90 III discrete 🙂
I need to get my hands on that one. Topping gear is such a mixed bag with some being amazing and others being just ok. I wonder what the D90D will be like?
I am so thankful for you stating the irrelevance and purely rethorical level of "best DAC" measurements.
♥️
Very interested in this new D90 iii discrete 1 bit DAC that they just announced
That will be interesting if they're taking a different approach
I thought 2 volts out was more of the standard for home use ? 4 volts out seems to high.
For single-ended RCA outputs, 2V max is generally the standard, but for XLR outputs, 4V is roughly the industry standard, even for "pro" gear like sound boards. I'm not sure why or where some of these manufacturers are using 5V.
Yes, the 4V standard is XLR - sorry that I didn't specify that. The Topping DACs offer 2V or 2.5V options for RCA.
As for why, I believe it's all a pursuit of better measurements for marketing.
Hi, Topping D90SE vs D90 III, which in your opinion is the better of the these two DACs? How do you compare either of these models to Denafrips Pontus 12th and or 15th edition? Thanks in advance.
The D90 range to date (excluding the brand new discrete one that I'm yet to hear) are all pretty similar sounding. The Denafrips are an extremely different sounding DAC - much smoother and fuller with much more depth in the soundstage.
@@PassionforSound Thanks for reaching out. Looks like Denafrips is my way forward.
Your description of this DAC matches very closely my reasons why I ditched Topping DACs long ago as an option to accompany my three systems. In time I also discovered that I very much preferred the less accurate but way more natural sound of the R2R Denafrips DACs. More natural voices, instruments, space, great image and fantastic soundstage, if I would ever venture to try something different, it would either be a Holo or a bifrost, and I would be hesitant to cross the 2K mark.
Given all the reviews the last couple of years, and while there are some good R2R options below and around a grand, which may need a pre to boost output voltage, I see no compelling reason to replace my Topping d70s. Not as deep a stage as R2R but not completely 2D either. Still a good option inbetween R2R and chip based.
If I had to replace, I would consider Geshelli or Schiit. I also have an Aune X18th with upgraded Sparkos chip and an Aune linear power supply that performs well, just as well as the D70s, if not a bit more exciting.
Hi! Would love your opinion. I currently have a Topping E50/L50 stack driving a HD800S and a LCD-X both of which sound glorious with eq. Do you have any suggestions for an upgrade? I think $2k max would be my limit.
Thank you for the vids!
There are a few ways you could go. A Chord Hugo 2 would be brilliant if you're ok with an all-in-one. Alternatively, the Geshelli DACs and amps are brilliant as are the Schiit Bifrost 2 and a Jotunheim or Midgard.
I've got a list of recommended products in the description you can also check out.
@@PassionforSound You're the best! Will check them out for sure. Thank you
Just a note on your editing. It seems you like have the background music set on like an auto volume that raises when you take a break between sentences or something, because when you take a pause it jumps in volume for half a second and it's really jarring. Dunno if it's just me, but it'd be nice if that didn't happen. Otherwise, great video as always!
I've been tweaking the "ducking" approach and settings in each video. I think I've nailed it now, but "perfection" is a couple of videos away still
I was interested in the octo but an headfier told me that it plays well only track with a few instruments, in busy track it seems that it suffer... May it be possible?
And please try also these dacs also with a ddc , I'm waiting for my denafrips iris 12th and I wonder if I can appreciate an increase in quality.
A DDC will almost always improve the sound compared to a direct USB connection.
As for the OCTO struggling with busy passages, higher end DACs will do better, but at the level of the OCTO, D90 III, DAC-Z8, etc. I've not noticed any lack of separation/resolution, etc. from the OCTO.
Is the Bifrost in the review a Bifrost 2 or a Bifrost 2/64?
2/64
Yes. 2/64
Seems like smsl and topping just make tons of products hoping 1 out of 10 will be a hit.
I think that's exactly the approach
Good approach, they are doing well. Bet they outselling all the other dac manufacturers.
We are now in the era that even cheap budget DAC that inaudible distortion rate. No human being can hear the distortion difference between 0.0005% and 0.00008%. It is now more about what features, quality HP amp, customer support and design. Interesting era we now live in..
Actually, a well known Japanese producer of hi-end components has a better definition for a USB cable: "The best way known to man to inject noise into a converter".
Hence the use of opto-isolators on some DACs.
No noise on the topping. State of the art.
@@r423fplip "no noise" is surely an exaggeration. Even for the critically acclaimed (but flat sounding) topping.
@@DaveJ6515 no, it's not. It's more transparent than anything else in any system. If it sounds flat then it's A) the recordings B) your amp C) your loudspeakers
Absolutely no evidence of a lack of dynamics. The dynamic range is vastly better than almost any loudspeaker on the market
@@Hirnlego999 You don’t know what you are talking about. There IS noise, you can’t avoid it. Too bad being a fanboy makes people ignore plain Physics. Also, I am very happy of my setup, rest assured it sounds very well. But I won’t be inventing absurdities like “there’s no noise”. Noise is everywhere, you just can’t avoid it. You can limit it, you can reduce it, but it is there.
If the (criticality acclaimed) Topping sounds dynamic to you, wait until you hear a real high end DAC, with an appropriate amplifier of course.
Any dac in this price tier requires e arc support imo
Measurements do not equal sound quality. Some of the gear I own measures incredibly bad according to the clowns over at ASR, maybe they should listen to the gear they measure?
You're right. And the reason for that is he makes no attempt whatsoever to do anything that remotely resembles science. Fastest way to build a youtube channel is by telling people what they want to hear. If you want to shut down an ASR clown and have a good laugh, thy this. Just ask them to pick any video they want from ASR's youtube channel, and point out a single instance where he does something that would qualify as science. You'll never get an answer. Going by the name of the channel, you should be able to pick any video at random to answer the question I just asked.
@@052RC Total clown show... And to quote, "All DACs sound the same". Enough said.
Ha Ha! I made a comment on I think the latest Paul McGowan video about the sound of i2s. My takeaway was that it was system dependent, and one of the ASR clowns did not like that, telling me my gear was broken, because all DACs sound the same. He claimed to be an audio engineer. More like an audio clown.
I have an Exasound E-28, usb driven by my windows 7 pc with j River v32. Is it time to bag this DAC, which uses Sabre chips?
I would actually look at alternatives like the D70 Pro OCTO
Gd effort.staying sane in a insane audio world.
51 vs 49% made me laugh and I think it's a very honest way of putting it ...
♥️
Thank you so much.
Is the SMSL DO400 the best 500 dollars dac amp right now?
It has ES9039MSPRO, tons of IO, BT, good interface and 3w at 32ohm
I haven't tried that one to comment
It really does seem Wavetheory's view of the A90D rings true. It measure laughably good and is the ultimate test/comparison rig. But it comes across as boring. Some will love what it does, but I while I think the SMSL D1SE I have is a bit better, well definitely better as it gives some stage depth. Just listen to Jazz at the Pawshop to know how much a flat stage would sound boring.
His description near the end about how it behaves like a dynamic driver takes a little thinking, but in the end makes sense. I wont go into detail here, but check it out at 30 mins.
This is a great review Lachlan. Very clear and when you listen to critics of Topping, also makes sense.
My next DAC with definitely not be a ESS without some custom programming like Chord or Shiit, the likes of Ferrum is beyond my budget. I still cannot think an R2R is my next DAC, something the Holo Cyan or Gustard R26.
The Gustard R26 is brilliant! (I haven't tried the Cyan 2)
@@PassionforSound yeah that’s on the list too for sure.
Thank you for explaining differences between specs and actual sound. Ive seen you state in a few videos you think bifrost is best dac under 1k. Even the geshelli (great review by the way). Do you think bifrost is better than denafrips at same price point too?
And i know im asking for an opinion but i value it is why i ask
No problems. Yes, I prefer the Bifrost 2 (significantly) over the Denafrips Ares II. I haven't tried the Ares 12th so can't comment on that
I'd really like to know whay you tink about the D90 III Discrete.
Not too long to wait. I have it here now and am just waiting on another DAC to arrive because I want to compare them as part of the review process...
@@PassionforSound oh, man, I'm looking forward to it.
The other DAC would be the Centaurus?
@wkov-hc7pr that and the SMSL RAW Pro DAC1
I am a big fan of your channel. Have you compared different I2S HDMI cables? I think you´ve been using the HDMI Supra, same as I use currently but you may have compared with some others? Not sure if spending kind of 500 euros in Tubulus cables will give a clear upgrade. thank you
I haven't compared other cables for IIS as yet because I haven't had a really good DAC on hand (until now)
@@PassionforSound Thanks for replying :)
That was an excellent breakdown, thanks.
I'm so glad it was helpful!!
Hi Lachlan from Northern California!! First off... another outstanding review video 🎉👍👋👌!! I'm still using first generation Topping D90 w/Singxer SU-2. Per your advice waiting on funds to do D90-III and SU-6 together. The trigger on of D90-III is a key feature needed in my system to allow me to turn on only 2-chnl gear without turning on complete surround system. I've been happy with my Parasound amps downstream adding warmth to the Topping sound. Thank you for your continued excellence of your channel!!!
Glad I could help!
Are you sold on the D90 III already? The D70 Pro OCTO is cheaper, sounds better (IMO) and still has the 12V trigger.
@@PassionforSound I overlooked that. I'll definitely look into Octo model. Thank you again for recommendation 😃!!
Your description of the Bifrost 2 64 is very much aligned with how I feel about my Bifrost 2 (not 64).
BF2 to me sounded like I'm standing very close to the stage which is 1.5m height, separated by a black thin veil that I can only see the silhouettes of the performers. It sounded less in the face, but it creates a very interesting "depth" and imaging that the band who are performing behind that veil are not standing in a horizontal line, like you said in a fairly intimate space (in a slightly lit, small and classy show to me). It has a slightly warm/dark sound because of the music is being performed behind that veil (fabric), that's just how I feel.
I didn't like the BF2 at 1st impression because it took away the energy/fun I had with the Fostex HP-A4BL on some songs. But after testing more songs, I realised that Fostex DAC/Amp were bottlenecking my TH900MK2 because of how shouty it was, in every frequencies. BF2 showed what my headphone were capable of by creating such distinct depth. The bass is slightly less in volume, but deeper (like Sony Z1R bass kind of sense). Treble is still very high but instead of pointy sharp kind, it got shaved down to a curve shape, a very high poorly designed speed bump. (EQed that in the end)
Overall BF2 went well with my Topping A90. A90 provides the power. Bifrost 2 does the magic, giving the energetic TH900MK2 a sense of maturity, or refinement.
Now the other question for me and I'm not sure if you can answer it is: Should I upgrade from Bifrost 2 to Bifrost 2 64? A hefty price to upgrade considering the module + shipping to Aus (yes I'm in Melbourne also).
I would definitely recommend the upgrade to the 2/64. I don't really see any downside and plenty of upsides, unless you specifically want a slightly darker/smoother sound. The 2/64 version still remains the best sub-$1000 USD DAC I've tried.
@@PassionforSound Thanks. I was wondering if it's worth paying 350USD (~500 AUD) to upgrade since from I've read around it was mostly just differences instead of a clear upgrade. I'll have a look at it again. If only AddictedtoAudio has the upgrade module, would have saved the shipping cost.
@yuunashiki unlikely it would cost less from Addicted to Audio. They add significant margin onto Schiit products.
I can understand your hesitation and the differences aren't night and day, but they are clear and significant IMO.
Another option would be to wait for the new Gungnir DAC which will be more expensive still and larger, but should offer even better sound.
@@PassionforSound when will the Gungnir be available?
@vtl65 I don't know. That's a question for Schiit. They mentioned it on a live stream a little while back IIRC.
Waiting on the 16 dac chip DAC 😂
A fantastic test track for DACs is:
OoOo - whereismylove?
Tests ambiance, panning, layered whispers, a figure 8 pan, cymbal shimmer, placement and staging of various guitars and claps which come and go with specific placement for introduction in the mix.
@passionforsound oops the DIII Discrete just dropped 😅
That definitely sounds interesting...
Really want to buy this but other youtube reviewer said this is lack of soundstage compared to denafrips. So whats ur oppinion
I completely agree. I think there are better options out there
So i have a very old headphone amplifier the fiio e09k very powerful for my headphone. I'm thinking i need a upgrade not sure if i should just upgrade the dac only since amp drive all my headphones. Or i really da need a overall upgrade.
A good amp from a while back will still be a good amp. I'd start with the DAC and then see if you feel like the amp is scaling up with the new DAC. If not much improves, then swap out the amp next. 🙂
@@PassionforSound thank you
I don’t require impressive measurements to tell me what subjectively sounds good :)
Exactly: when I worked in a hi-fi shop (40 years ago) the boss said: always show the numbers (when they are good): numbers sell much better than demoing the component. When you demo it, nobody is totally happy, but when they see numbers to show to their friends, that's much easier!
@@DaveJ6515 Yah I like to see specs and measurements because they are an indicator of the performance of the equipment, but ultimately, for entertainment purposes, we have to enjoy how it sounds.
Have you tried the Topping DX9?
There’s not enough review about it
I haven't, but would love to
Great video showing that after a point, chasing THD and SINAD is just trying to win points from Amir at Audio Science Review, when for the rest of us, it is sound quality, ease of use, and support (both during and after the warranty period) that means more. I love DACs that have a nice display of data rate and bit-depth coming in, but think I could live with the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 and be happy...maybe get a streamer with a display for eye candy instead. I know some would argue it isn't high end, but I could see myself using a WiiM Ultra's USB out into a Bifrost 2/64 (getting any jitter and noise reduced by the Bifrost) and calling it a day. I know, I know. Some say you have to spend $2K to $5K to get a proper DAC. I say, well, it depends.
I'm with you. If you're enjoying your music, you're all good!
Who is the rest of us ? Arrogant. My system I’m using is built on performance, the numbers. It’s sounds insane. Don’t put your head in the sand. Next thing it will be how a usb cable makes a difference.
@@r423fplip if you follow ASR I guess you like overly bright strident fingernails on a chalkboard sound. No thanks. At some point they are measuring the noise in their measuring equipment and any rankings or such don't mean beans. I mean I'll take a $8000 Mola Mola over a $200 Topping all day, even if the Topping supposedly measures "better".
SMSL won that arms race 2 years ago with the SU-10
This is a dedicated DAC right? Does that really make a difference versus having a DAC/Amp combo? It’s hard to understand without having owned these kinds of devices.
A dedicated DAC and amp will almost always beat an equivalent price/level integrated/all-in-one.
I disagree that there is a single path to building a system. After years of experience, I find the bottleneck in a system can be anywhere and matching every component to the approximate same performance level is important. There's no point having a pair of $4,000 headphones connected to a DAC and amp worth $2,000 combined. You'd be better spending $2,000 on each item (as a rough example).
Your opinion about d50 iii?
I haven't tried it. I've not been a huge fan of the D50s in the past and preferred the E50s. I have the E50 III coming up soon, I think
Glad to see that you did not ctiticise the PT Cruiser, plenty of distortion and looks great to certain eyes
.......its all a question of taste
😂
For a moment I was celebrating a Topping Dx9 review. I was wrong 😢
Sorry to get your hopes up!!
Right now I'm using a E50 with my A70 pro, and its great, but I want the stack, so I'm saving up for the Octo. Spending £900 for this D90 III is just pointless when the D70 pro exists.
I completely agree. I hope you get your OCTO soon!
MQA logo on the rear of the DAC 😂😂😂
SMSL SU-X is the current king of the hill under $1000 besting the Topping from what I've gathered from reviewers that have heard both.
I'd believe that. I haven't tried the SU-X, but generally find that SMSL DACs are preferable subjectively
Fair review, thanks. Often think there's a serious disconnect between how Topping gear actually sounds...and the reviews this junk so often gets. Deffo some shilling going on from many "respected" reviewers.
I hope it's not shilling and actually a lack of comparison points, experience, or sufficiently resolving gear, but I couldn't say for certain...
Just last night I saw a review of the Topping D90 mk III vs the SMSL equivalent with AKM 4499EX chips. In the mix was another British DAC, a brand I never heard of before and which was physically much larger and far more expensive. He also provided some A-B comparisons with copyright-free music. I think it would be cool and helpful if you could do a shootout like that but with more relatable music, understanding of course that one is limited due to copyright infringement. I always thought the AK4499EX was going to be superior to the equivalent Sabre chips. After what I heard last night I’m not so sure anymore.
It's about a lot more than the chip, although I've found that the ceiling of the 4499EX chips is higher than the Sabre chips when it comes to soundstage depth.
As for doing this type of recording comparison, I think it's a really poor idea. I'm pretty sure that I saw the video too (haven't finished it yet, but saved it to watch later) and while the idea is excellent, the practical execution is likely impossible. I say that because our ears are incredibly sensitive to timing accuracy and that tends to be the separation point between good DACs and exceptional DACs. All modern DACs reproduce the frequency response perfectly.
The problem arises when you record the outputs from the DACs and try to test them. Passing the outputted signals through a microphone and analog-to-digital converter (ADC) will likely lose some timing resolution from what's heard in the room. Then, during playback your source chain (anyone's source chain) will further alter the reproduction of the sound, ESPECIALLY if your source chain isn't one with outstanding timing accuracy. In other words, the entire recording and playback chain is negating the differences between the DACs in most cases. The presenter of the video alluded to that in the introduction, but perhaps understated it a bit.
@@PassionforSound I get you and I respect your answer. I could never have explained it that well but I know that any A-B testing will only be as good as the input recording on your end and the output listening gear on my end. My DAC, my amp, my headphones. The video which I believe we have both seen and heard demonstrated such a significant contrast between the Sabre and the AKM chip that it made me wonder how they pulled it off. Anyway, your descriptions of what you hear when doing reviews are more than sufficient for us the viewers to understand what’s what.
I am going to pump the brakes on DAC jumping for a while and stick with the Cyan 2
Schiit has this DAC implementation coming out soon and Chord has been using it
Also, the digital amplifiers from Technics and Marantz are impressive as they don’t have DACs they inherently convert everything into digital
I have a Technics digital amplifier and color me impressed
Chord has a new DAC in the pipeline
Bottom line for me is sit tight and see how things shake out over the next year or few
Brilliant flick,, 👍🌟👍
I'm so glad you liked it!
I don't listen to graphs, I listen to teh music...
Better than geshelli labs ?
Not in my opinion.
16:12 ADI-2 DAC
Maybe, but I didn't have that here to compare and I think it's more expensive than the D90 III in most countries
Puts my DAC to shame, but seems like overkill and yeah, to what end?
I have a d70 pro sabre which also sounded flat but the moment I switched to using a coaxial cable instead of a usb cable coming from my Bluesound n130 the music opened up.
Way more soundstage, more warmth, detail, holographic etc all got better. I couldn't believe what I heard and i never looked back to USB.
I am convinced the coaxial output N130) and/or input (d70) sound better than USB.
I believe you, but the problem with your statement is it takes a lot more than 1 example to show any type of trend. Also, sounds better is subjective. Not everyone will get the same results as you. In a different situation, you could just as easily pick the opposite. Nit picking aside, you're going about it the right way. Listen and pick whatever sounds best to you.
Yeah I agree.
However, It seems that our beloved reviewers never state or show in their reviews that they have used a coaxial cable.
But solely base their opinions on soundquality they get from USB or in this case I²S.
I wonder why that is.
The more because (n=1) in my case the improvement is so big.
And even more because I was taught, and I get this might be controversial, that coaxial is superior to USB.
The challenge with this is that it also depends on the source device. A great, clean USB connection can be better than a coaxial connection. Likewise, sometimes optical is better. You'll find in many of my DAC reviews, I will discuss if there is any obvious difference in the performance of the various inputs (based on using the same output device - a Singxer SU-6 - for consistency). In this review, there was too much else to cover to highlight all the inputs (other than the IIS noise)
IMHO, the only way for human beings to accurately judge the fidelity of an electronic component is through a good recording of vocals and acoustic instruments. This is because we intuitively know how a person's voice should sound. What an acoustic guitar, or a piano, or violin, or a saxophone, etc. should sound like, their sounds being highly distinctive and based in physical reality. Which is why good reviewers frequently listen to live music played through acoustic instruments. Whereas electronic instruments have no inherent connection to reality. Their sound can be easily manipulated. So there's no objective point of reference. This is not to say that 'electronic' music is in and of itself invalid. Just that it is insufficient for truly accurate evaluation of electronics.
In addition, when singers sing and acoustic instruments are played, they create a space around them which we can sense, thus the soundstage becomes a factor in the believability of the recording. The current lack of a believable soundstage with height and depth along with width is IMO where the great majority of inexpensive components have yet to measure up.
Physical reality is the only objective standard of measure. This holds true whatever our personal preferences, whatever our priorities in the musical qualities; whether resolution, tonality, 'airiness', etc...
one of my fav pieces recently for this sort of thing is - Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata - Berliner Philharmonie | Piano & Orchestra by Georgii Cherkin
Nice one. I personally wouldn’t touch anything Topping (or products from any measurement leading company) with a 10 foot pole. Some of it might sound fine, but life is just too short to waste my time like that. Not laying down the law, just my personal take.
I agree. They sound so lifeless subjectively of course
There are some lovely products in their range (e.g. D70 PRO OCTO), but it's a bit hit and miss...
@@PassionforSound Thanks. Yeah, I’m sure and my point was not to suggest there wasn’t 😊 But I would rather spend my time shopping products, where I know listening > measurements. Secondarily, I’d rather support companies that don’t push the measurement narrative.
Good afternoon from Toronto 🫖
I’ve given up the DAC war ..I’m sticking with my Denafrips Ares 12-1 …and I’m good ….
If you chase the zeros..you might miss the whole experience.
Take care .
How was your buying experience? I'm in Canada too.
@@robertlogue3794 Good ..however Vinshine has now moved away from Denafrips and will be honoring warranties and service.
Shipping was fast and the unit has just been a stunner .
Glad you're enjoying the tunes - that's what matters most!!
I’m wondering when topping is gonna drop their d900 they traded at canjam
I'm using Singxer SU-6 into Aune S9C Pro with Aune SC1 audio clock. No need to change to anything else it's perfect for my needs.
Didn't you recently talk about reviewing products that you will enjoy?
What a pleasure it was to review this product which was quite similar to others, but basically the most boring one? What you've described is just another piece of dry, flat, clean -digitaly crappy sounding DAC that belongs in the trash can and not on the hi-fi rack.
This measurements 0.0000 are worth 0 and are good for those ones who were never to some live, unpluged sessions or concerts to have a clue how a real instruments should sound.
Yes, time for a real job? 😮
I spoke about having more fun in general, but I still need to try products to know if they're enjoyable or not :)
@@PassionforSound :))
@@PassionforSound Actually a good excuse for constant opportunism :)
Jay's Iyagi made a wise decision about this "all the same sounding DAC's" and lifted his credibitlity, I guess ;)
I would have loved to have heard opinions based on actual HiFi use, not headphones. Sure headphones can be resolving, but even in proffesional mastering many are turning to plug ins because even the best planar headphones simply cannot do soundstage depth because headphone use puts the sound inside your head and need a plug in to trick the brain into sound being in front of them.
The soundstage depth and image placement are important to me, as is bass weight and texture/definition. Headphones are simply too limiting. Though many youtube reviewers also have limiting systems.
You also come across as more biased toward one product due to simply being a fan of that product. At least one other DAC along the lines of the Schiit could have been welcome and broke that feeling of one actual DAC against a few do it all DAC/Pre items.
Sadly there is a lot of competition in that price point, I would also like to know how it compares to the CA CX100 streaming dac as an example, or SMSL, yet key points for me are AES, I2S, and balanced output, we then have the issue of money going innto a pre out stage and is that detracting from audio quality. Denafrips and Schiit are two well reviewed products with no pre amp function, and possibly that purist single minded goal is helping to produce that more refined product where that analogue output stage is more developed?
I want to hear into the mix, but I also want weight, body, and depth to the image, texture in those lowest notes. I am still running 90's digital tech simply because it has that sound, modern dacs seem to be getting more resolution with a lower noise floor yet a single dimensional soundstage more like comparing a water colour to an oil painting, yet your not hearing a noise floor even on many old tech items.
I'm not sure which DAC you feel I'm biased towards because I say great things about both the D70 Pro OCTO and the Schiit Bifrost 2. I think both are excellent and both provide exactly what you're looking for, especially the Bifrost 2 so your complaint leaves me a bit confused.
As for speakers vs headphones, you can tell just as much, if not more, about a DAC with an excellent headphone amp and headphones compared to a speaker setup. If you have a headphone amp that limits staging (as the majority do) then this will limit what you can perceive, but that's not the case here.
So was a scientific double blind test also done by AS to prove the listening differences between .000007 and .00007? or whatever powers of 10 they measured.
Can you reference a scientific double blind test done by a credible source on any piece of audio equipment ever made? I just want to see one test.
What a great hoodie! 😂
No
Well I'm 0.00045 impressed.
😂
If I see another clickbait headline for a Chinese manufacturer's new product that sounds exactly like their old product with a higher price tag and 2dB less distortion I'm gonna fucking lose it
And a new S.M.S.L RAW-MDA1 reach 0.00006 while costing 250 US
I've actually just received that recently. Review coming soon...
Technically Topping has reached….according to them the pinnacle of DAC technology years ago.
So why make another DAC?
Such BS
Good luck on returning it if there is an issue , or them honoring any warranty.
More landfill
When I hear that the soundstage is flat and 2 dimensional (dry, sharp), my conclusion is that the product is simply over-engineered crap, regardless of price. It means non-linear distortion and compression, usually unmeasurable by typical sinewave, and often caused by electronics, design and parts used. Often the cheaper simpler designs are much better sounding, after taking care of some modern design bs, like transistor muting. This SINAD race BS is also getting annoying, because it means absolutely nothing in terms of audio signal transparency/purity, and in 99% of cases actually means suffocated sound. The common misconceptions about some of these terms used by everybody ain't helping either.
I'm 51% certain 🤣🤣🤣
😁
We have a word for reviews of this caliber in the US, we call it "Malarky."
I have Topping D90SE , Topping E70 Velvet, and Naim DAC R2R PCM1704k. For me in my system the winner still NAIM.
Naim DAC has R2R , very nice natural sound , 3D sound stage .
👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋
Well…….THAT specific DAC may measure well. But we all know that it could well be a ‘ golden sample’, since so many people including myself have bought Topping and the sound is either bad or meh.
On top of that their gear breaks down way too often.
It didn't come from Topping so they wouldn't have had any influence over the unit picked to send to me. The reality is that many of the Topping DACs just aren't inspiring because they're built to specs, not to sound (as far as I can tell)
@@PassionforSound yeah man that’s fine. No worries.
ASR is basically their marketing campaign anyway, so they started the whole measurements to the nth degree thing. I too like good measuring gear as well. But I do want it to sound good as well. Both can go hand in hand. And I’ll just say it straight out….i don’t trust Topping. They are in a country with vastly different business practices , so I’m not naive to that fact even though that is verboten to somehow say nowadays.
So many of their products are faulty, you can’t return them, and everything in between.
I prefer a company that I can at least have some say in if they rip me off.
Hope all that made sense.
Cheers
Bifrost 2 THD+N:
Oops. Thanks for the correction.
Who cares....😖
Think I'll stay with my Gumby Unison.
Definitely!