Hello Ape, you did well to show that the signal level you selected (-73dBm) out of the TinySa for your tests was in every practical sense -73dBm. The RF gain should always be set to 100% which sets the receiver to its most sensitive setting. The RF gain should be reduced to reduce the incoming signal to improve audible quality. I have a Kenwood TS430s and only reduce the RF gain and increase AF gain if there is a lot of QRM to better hear weaker stations. Hope that makes sense and I does not come across as a negative comment. Merry Christmas!
Hey Harry, not negative at all. At 100% it does show an S9, I never ever run the radio close to 100% RFG. Also I didn't find anything in either of the manuals about it... Thanks for watching!
@@TheSmokinApe Great video! I run all my radios at 100% RF gain so I can pick out weak signals. The only time to turn RF gain down is to reduce noise while rag chewing with a strong signal. Also like the previous gentleman said to block some QRM. The radios are designed to run 100% RF gain, so no worries on damaging the radio if that was your concern. My apologies if this is just another repeat message about RF gain lol! Keep up the great videos! 73 Curt AC9HO
Hi Ape, I think you need to set the RF gain to 100% to check for S9 if injecting a -73 dBm signal. You and your family have a safe and happy holiday season. 73 WJ3U
Thanks Don. Here is what is crazy, I never run a radio at 100% RF Gain, I was surprised to others did... I also looked through both manuals for the 705 and didn't see it mentioned anywhere...
@@TheSmokinApe Hi Ape, See if Icom has the service manual for the 705. Even one for the 7300 will do. It will have the instructions for alignment. Stay safe. 73 WJ3U
@@TheSmokinApe I think the reason for turning down gain, is to adjust the noise floor to S1 or lower. When reporting an S unit, I always assumed I was reporting it as "above the noise floor" rather than an absolute power (dBm) level. So, my report is a combination of the sender's signal level and my local noise floor.
I just checked my IC705 with my TinySA Ultra. At minus 73 db I get an S7 reading at 7.100 mhz. Pre amp off as well as the ATT off. I usually have the RF gain set at 90% but turned it up to 100% for this test. I did the test in the CW mode. Just thought I'd pass that one. Thanks for great video. I have to say, between my NanoVNA H4 and TinySA Ultra, I have two of the most useful tools to be used in Ham Radio. I also have a RIgol DSA850TG but the Nano and TinySA are so much easier to set up for some quick testing. Barry, KU3X
Great video ! The " S - Meter" Values in the IC705 should be in the service instructions for the radio as that is typically something that can be "calibrated". As others have said previously the RF gain is typically set to 100% when performing this "calibration" per past practice. I was in a class during the spring and had a tiny SA in my toolbag and it floored everyone with just how useful it can be. The equipment I use at work has to be calibrated annually but as you outlined "this is ham radio" . Thanks for sharing !
Hey SC, when the RFG is set to 100% it did read s9. The TinySA is an awesome bit of kit for hams, I am surprised that so many turn up their nose at them.
@@TheSmokinApe Definitely ! I have this conversation often. The Tiny SA and the Nano VNA have been the game changers of the past several years IMHO. The capability that both exhibit for the price point and the fact that they together have the form factor of a single HT is simply amazing.
Thanks for doing this. I have wondered in my 2 years of IC-7300 ownership "at what RF gain level should I give someone a reading?" I can make the S meter read whatever I want depending on attenuation, preamps, and RF gain setting. Seems like the manufacturer would tell you under what conditions an S reading is taken. Or, maybe not! Thanks again!
What a good video and comments, I was just looking for a way to calibrate the S-Meter of an ICOM and I see that TinySA is perfect. Luckily the service manual of my old ICOM gives me the parameters and instructions. The 100% RF thing is clearly being your modern team with other stages. TinySA is really a great tool. 73
I am still learning but for what it's worth, in my Yaesu FT-991A manual in the RF gain section, page 57, they seem to suggest that it should be turned all the way clockwise and then just a tiny bit counterclockwise. Maybe there is a similarity with how the ICOM should be operated?
@@TheSmokinApe I think the Siglent has a combining mode, where the 2 signals are combined internally. Not sure how effective that is. I have made a transformer based hybrid with 3 resistors and a transformer for my Rigol DG1062Z. Find a hybrid schematic online or in ARRL manual. Having attenuators after the hybrid is recommended. Do a 10 dB S+N/N first with an AC voltmeter Set your signal generator to required spacing apart eg 25/50 kHz, and tune to the product +/- 25 kHz away. Adjust level for 10 dB S+N/N again. Check that the noise floor doesn't increase with just the closest carrier, as this will give misleading results. (Phase noise limited)
Hi Ape, Does does turning off AGC-M have an effect? I'm trying to do something vaguely similar. Use a tinySA to find out if my F8HP can receive a -116 dbm WFM signal and how strong is it. Hence I came across this video. Best regards Michael VK6MIK
Ape, I’m no expert - you’re the expert! Been a ham since I was 13 (I’m 55 now), and been doing Radio a long time. I always understood that the standard way to run a radio was with RF Gain at 100% and no pre-amp. Then, adjusting RF Gain and/or using pre-amp (or attenuator) was optional for the given situation. Seems to me the fair test would be to test the radio at full RF Gain and no pre-amp.
I have an ic 7300 bought it new.....no matter how strong a signal and how near.....I have never ssen a full scale signal on its S-meter.....to me it gives a lowish reading. Is there an adjustment for the s-mater on the 7300.
Yea, I’m mad and upset…that you didn’t publish this sooner, lol. Interesting video and test. I wonder if the agc control…which was set at agc-m on the video…might have an influence on your results. Just a thought, Ape.
Howdy Frank, happy holidays to you. I liked doing this video, it was actually pretty fun. A few things came up after reflecting on it for a bit. The meter did read S9 if the RFG was at 100%, thats a great point about the AGC. What I don't get is that hams will ask "How's my signal?" Another ham will reply "you are a S7 on the meter!" This really provides no context as to the signal quality. It would be nice, if we had a way to tell what the signal strength was at the input and then after "tuning".
I dont own an Icom, but totally understand your concerns. now I want to go check my Kenwoods!!!! Anyhow. for all the haters out there.........My tiny SAs are right on with my HP SAs. Great job Ape!!!!!
@@TheSmokinApe RR. Ive had no problem bringing in a tiny SA to a sight, get a diagnoses. after re assessing with the HP.........the tiny SA has always been right on. I could carry a 150 LB HP into the facility or a 2 Oz Tiny SA!!!!!!! not a tough choice!!!!!! when it comes to government work....i do need to double check with the HP. Great channel Ape!!!! Keep em coming!!!! 73, N8SOT
Typically S meter calibration is done at max gain. I prefer a strength meter calibrated in dBm. Most receivers don't provide correction when internal amplifiers or attenuators are used. The S meters are usually run off the AGC in legacy designs. Modern Sdr designs could display over quite a range. Is that adjustment RF gain.. Or IF gain? Input attenuation/preamp gain should be used to reduce band noise down, to give maximum dynamic range. Keep on doing the great work. Greeting of the season from NZ
Thanks Ape, this was really interesting indeed! It proves the TinySA (both legacy and new one) to be a credible testing tool, and the comments so far were just as interesting and instructive on the main. It would be really interesting to repeat this test with some of the other popular QRP-style radios too (if you have them), e.g. Yaesu FT-817/891, Xiegu X5105/X6100/G90 and any of the Elekraft models if you have access to one. At least it will show (a) whether they follow the same calibration convention as Icom - which some comments seems to suggest should be the case, and (b) whether they are as accurate (or not) as the Icom. I also did not know about the theory behind the S-meter values, so this is all great information. Thanks for a brilliant video! 73, Jan (M7HNK)
Hey Jan, thanks for the comment. This was a fun video to make that I felt could help folks learn about the TinySA and play around with their radio. You're correct that the RFG at 100% will show S9. Thanks for watching!
Max RF gain, no preamp is where I would expect the S-meter to read S9 at -73dBm. It didn't look as if it was going to do that from what I can see here. Whether a radio's S-meter behaves as it should with about 6dB steps down from there per S-unit is a bigger thing to explore, and I would bet few now do that. Modern radios with confusing manufacturer approaches (Yaesu's "IPO ON" is how you turn the preamp off, idiotic because you should have the preamp off by default on HF) don't help people set their receiver up.
Hey Stuart, thanks for the comment. It does read S9 with the RFG at 100%, I never use the radio on 100%. When you think about it, having to set it at 100% to correctly measure the signal kind of mane is an RF Loss knob!
Nice S meter testing Ape !! With all the RF Gain controls + RF Preamp features & Lack of pertinent user instruction manual resources, seems -73 Dbm sig level to S9 Indicated has become a lost Calibration issue....It May be Accurately described in the Official Service Manual alignment procedure if someone can verify....As Relative as the Indicated S9 level to Actual -- Dbm signal Level is, the Most Important S Meter Usefulness Is for the Indicated S Meter reading to Drop 1 S unit Per each 6 Dbm Actual Signal level Reduction....If the Receiver's indicated S Units to -- 6 Dbm step Reductions Isn't fairly Calibrated from S9 to S1,
Interesting how they charged the price they do when the ftdx10 has way better specs and being sold at a all time low price of 1350 😉yes I understand it’s not a portable rig so comparing isn’t fair but the two rigs released during covid and their price. Well I guess comparing a dual conversion to a SDR isn’t kosher either 😊
@@twohandsandaradio no they did not redo the 991a which does hf-uhf plus digital Fusion. The ftdx10 took the 3k place in its more a contesting rig with shift width notch n contour easily accessible.I’m still waiting on the 818 revamp with digital I think they could do it on the 710/ftdx10 platform maybe even get a 50w output 😉
It's too bad u always have to incorporate evidence for the naysayers into your videos. It seems a waste of time cause as naysayers go, they will nay and nay and nay away, cause that's their MO. Great Video APE! Hope you and your family have an awesome holiday and beautiful new year. Peace!
Let the flames 🔥 begin. I hope you know all the FanBoi are going to rage 😡 Hell have no fury like a icom FanBoi being burned on a YT Vid 😮 you can’t argue specs with sum of the following. Not even when you need to add toe roids and common mode ferrite cores to block out the unwanted signals. Flame suit engaged Yaesu4LIFE 😂
The money you spend on that rig its supposed to be on in the factory they celebrate it at the factory signal generator etc and thier test equipment is always calibrated and documented.
Hello Ape, you did well to show that the signal level you selected (-73dBm) out of the TinySa for your tests was in every practical sense -73dBm.
The RF gain should always be set to 100% which sets the receiver to its most sensitive setting. The RF gain should be reduced to reduce the incoming signal to improve audible quality.
I have a Kenwood TS430s and only reduce the RF gain and increase AF gain if there is a lot of QRM to better hear weaker stations. Hope that makes sense and I does not come across as a negative comment.
Merry Christmas!
Hey Harry, not negative at all. At 100% it does show an S9, I never ever run the radio close to 100% RFG. Also I didn't find anything in either of the manuals about it... Thanks for watching!
@@TheSmokinApe Great video! I run all my radios at 100% RF gain so I can pick out weak signals. The only time to turn RF gain down is to reduce noise while rag chewing with a strong signal. Also like the previous gentleman said to block some QRM. The radios are designed to run 100% RF gain, so no worries on damaging the radio if that was your concern. My apologies if this is just another repeat message about RF gain lol! Keep up the great videos! 73 Curt AC9HO
@@yeater302 hey Curt, thanks for the comment. At 100% it did show an s9.
@@TheSmokinApe and yes it should be 100% unless you have to back off due to ltoo arge signals.
Hi Ape,
I think you need to set the RF gain to 100% to check for S9 if injecting a -73 dBm signal. You and your family have a safe and happy holiday season. 73 WJ3U
Exactly Don! The RF gain in ICOM radios actually behave as an input attenuator. So you need to turn pre-amp off and set RF Gain to 100%.
Precisely exactly. He missed the boat. De W5NED
Thanks Don. Here is what is crazy, I never run a radio at 100% RF Gain, I was surprised to others did... I also looked through both manuals for the 705 and didn't see it mentioned anywhere...
@@TheSmokinApe Hi Ape,
See if Icom has the service manual for the 705. Even one for the 7300 will do. It will have the instructions for alignment. Stay safe. 73 WJ3U
@@TheSmokinApe I think the reason for turning down gain, is to adjust the noise floor to S1 or lower. When reporting an S unit, I always assumed I was reporting it as "above the noise floor" rather than an absolute power (dBm) level. So, my report is a combination of the sender's signal level and my local noise floor.
I just checked my IC705 with my TinySA Ultra. At minus 73 db I get an S7 reading at 7.100 mhz. Pre amp off as well as the ATT off. I usually have the RF gain set at 90% but turned it up to 100% for this test. I did the test in the CW mode.
Just thought I'd pass that one. Thanks for great video. I have to say, between my NanoVNA H4 and TinySA Ultra, I have two of the most useful tools to be used in Ham Radio. I also have a RIgol DSA850TG but the Nano and TinySA are so much easier to set up for some quick testing.
Barry, KU3X
Good to hear from you Barry. SOunds like we had similar experiences 👍
Great video ! The " S - Meter" Values in the IC705 should be in the service instructions for the radio as that is typically something that can be "calibrated". As others have said previously the RF gain is typically set to 100% when performing this "calibration" per past practice. I was in a class during the spring and had a tiny SA in my toolbag and it floored everyone with just how useful it can be. The equipment I use at work has to be calibrated annually but as you outlined "this is ham radio" . Thanks for sharing !
Hey SC, when the RFG is set to 100% it did read s9. The TinySA is an awesome bit of kit for hams, I am surprised that so many turn up their nose at them.
@@TheSmokinApe Definitely ! I have this conversation often. The Tiny SA and the Nano VNA have been the game changers of the past several years IMHO. The capability that both exhibit for the price point and the fact that they together have the form factor of a single HT is simply amazing.
Thanks for doing this. I have wondered in my 2 years of IC-7300 ownership "at what RF gain level should I give someone a reading?" I can make the S meter read whatever I want depending on attenuation, preamps, and RF gain setting. Seems like the manufacturer would tell you under what conditions an S reading is taken. Or, maybe not! Thanks again!
It's exactly why I don't use the S-Meter when giving a report. Thanks for watching Don!
What a good video and comments, I was just looking for a way to calibrate the S-Meter of an ICOM and I see that TinySA is perfect. Luckily the service manual of my old ICOM gives me the parameters and instructions. The 100% RF thing is clearly being your modern team with other stages. TinySA is really a great tool. 73
Glad it was helpful, thanks for watching Videmod.
I am still learning but for what it's worth, in my Yaesu FT-991A manual in the RF gain section, page 57, they seem to suggest that it should be turned all the way clockwise and then just a tiny bit counterclockwise. Maybe there is a similarity with how the ICOM should be operated?
You are correct, it's the same. Thanks for watching!
Should RF Gain be set to 100% and pre-amp off? Seems like that would be the correct way to go. I have two separate ICOM receivers. I'll try with them.
People argue about this all the time, I generally keep my RFG at 50% with the pre amp off unless I need to adjust 👍
You should be able to do 2 tone Intermodulation measurements for RX and TX with the Siglent Generator
That's something that I am planning. I'd love to hear if you have any suggestions...
@@TheSmokinApe I think the Siglent has a combining mode, where the 2 signals are combined internally. Not sure how effective that is. I have made a transformer based hybrid with 3 resistors and a transformer for my Rigol DG1062Z. Find a hybrid schematic online or in ARRL manual. Having attenuators after the hybrid is recommended. Do a 10 dB S+N/N first with an AC voltmeter Set your signal generator to required spacing apart eg 25/50 kHz, and tune to the product +/- 25 kHz away. Adjust level for 10 dB S+N/N again. Check that the noise floor doesn't increase with just the closest carrier, as this will give misleading results. (Phase noise limited)
@@technishn thanks for the info, and yes the Siglent can combine the two channels. Enjoy your holiday!
@@TheSmokinApe You may need more isolation that that will give you. Tests will reveal that. Enjoys your holiday. Christmas is already here in NZ :)
Hi Ape, Does does turning off AGC-M have an effect?
I'm trying to do something vaguely similar. Use a tinySA to find out if my F8HP can receive a -116 dbm WFM signal and how strong is it.
Hence I came across this video.
Best regards Michael VK6MIK
Hey Moozoo. I would imagine the AGC would have some impact.
Ape, I’m no expert - you’re the expert! Been a ham since I was 13 (I’m 55 now), and been doing Radio a long time. I always understood that the standard way to run a radio was with RF Gain at 100% and no pre-amp. Then, adjusting RF Gain and/or using pre-amp (or attenuator) was optional for the given situation.
Seems to me the fair test would be to test the radio at full RF Gain and no pre-amp.
No expert here... So when I do the test with the RFG at 100% it does show an s9.
I have an ic 7300 bought it new.....no matter how strong a signal and how near.....I have never ssen a full scale signal on its S-meter.....to me it gives a lowish reading.
Is there an adjustment for the s-mater on the 7300.
RF Gain
@@TheSmokinApe no its not that.
Great job APE, don't worry about the may sayer. Keep doing the best educational videos the we enjoy. Best wishes to you and your family. 73 👍🏽😁
Thanks Ferdinand!
That's a lot of ways to say Generator 8:48
You damn right!
Very well done Ape. I learned about S units a bit today. Thanks for these instructional videos.
MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and yours.
Thanks Marvin, glad you like them!
Yea, I’m mad and upset…that you didn’t publish this sooner, lol. Interesting video and test. I wonder if the agc control…which was set at agc-m on the video…might have an influence on your results. Just a thought, Ape.
Howdy Frank, happy holidays to you. I liked doing this video, it was actually pretty fun. A few things came up after reflecting on it for a bit. The meter did read S9 if the RFG was at 100%, thats a great point about the AGC. What I don't get is that hams will ask "How's my signal?" Another ham will reply "you are a S7 on the meter!" This really provides no context as to the signal quality. It would be nice, if we had a way to tell what the signal strength was at the input and then after "tuning".
“Rectally probe it” 😂 that was hilarious!
Seriously though, thanks for all the awesome content and for posting it so often. Love your content.
Thanks Steve, I try to be "entertaining!"
I dont own an Icom, but totally understand your concerns. now I want to go check my Kenwoods!!!! Anyhow. for all the haters out there.........My tiny SAs are right on with my HP SAs. Great job Ape!!!!!
Hey Brian, people need to relax on the TinySA hate. Thanks for the comment!
@@TheSmokinApe RR. Ive had no problem bringing in a tiny SA to a sight, get a diagnoses. after re assessing with the HP.........the tiny SA has always been right on. I could carry a 150 LB HP into the facility or a 2 Oz Tiny SA!!!!!!! not a tough choice!!!!!! when it comes to government work....i do need to double check with the HP. Great channel Ape!!!! Keep em coming!!!! 73, N8SOT
The government likes that expensive gear!
Would be interesting to see what a Flex shows. I believe the S meter on those is supposed to be calibrated to the standard.
Yeah, would be cool to see others tested.
Typically S meter calibration is done at max gain.
I prefer a strength meter calibrated in dBm.
Most receivers don't provide correction when internal amplifiers or attenuators are used.
The S meters are usually run off the AGC in legacy designs.
Modern Sdr designs could display over quite a range.
Is that adjustment RF gain.. Or IF gain?
Input attenuation/preamp gain should be used to reduce band noise down, to give maximum dynamic range.
Keep on doing the great work. Greeting of the season from NZ
Thanks for the comment Tech. In this case with the pre amps off and the RFG at 100% it does show an s9 with -73dB.
@@TheSmokinApe Can you hear band noise (antenna connected) with the preamps off?
Yeah, the radio works great.
Thanks Ape, this was really interesting indeed! It proves the TinySA (both legacy and new one) to be a credible testing tool, and the comments so far were just as interesting and instructive on the main. It would be really interesting to repeat this test with some of the other popular QRP-style radios too (if you have them), e.g. Yaesu FT-817/891, Xiegu X5105/X6100/G90 and any of the Elekraft models if you have access to one. At least it will show (a) whether they follow the same calibration convention as Icom - which some comments seems to suggest should be the case, and (b) whether they are as accurate (or not) as the Icom.
I also did not know about the theory behind the S-meter values, so this is all great information. Thanks for a brilliant video! 73, Jan (M7HNK)
Hey Jan, thanks for the comment. This was a fun video to make that I felt could help folks learn about the TinySA and play around with their radio. You're correct that the RFG at 100% will show S9. Thanks for watching!
Cool video! Facts are facts...it's is still a very nice qrp rig !! I have heard of this before on the 705
I love the 705. With the RFG at 100% it did read as an s9.
@@TheSmokinApe 👍
I always raw dog my rf gain at 100%. Not sure if that’s what you’re “supposed” to do but that’s what I do.
Beats me, I keep mine between 40-50 🤔
Well hello Mr. Ape. In your opinion would you say the 705 is the best qrp. Radio on the Market today. Thanks. Ron z. WA3090SWL.
I would, it has an amazing feature set.
Interesting results.
Thanks for watching Shane!
Max RF gain, no preamp is where I would expect the S-meter to read S9 at -73dBm. It didn't look as if it was going to do that from what I can see here. Whether a radio's S-meter behaves as it should with about 6dB steps down from there per S-unit is a bigger thing to explore, and I would bet few now do that. Modern radios with confusing manufacturer approaches (Yaesu's "IPO ON" is how you turn the preamp off, idiotic because you should have the preamp off by default on HF) don't help people set their receiver up.
Hey Stuart, thanks for the comment. It does read S9 with the RFG at 100%, I never use the radio on 100%. When you think about it, having to set it at 100% to correctly measure the signal kind of mane is an RF Loss knob!
Joe Brett and I want to know what it takes to trigger the OVF light 🤣
Haha, happy Bday!
Nice S meter testing Ape !! With all the RF Gain controls + RF Preamp features & Lack of pertinent user instruction manual resources, seems -73 Dbm sig level to S9 Indicated has become a lost Calibration issue....It May be Accurately described in the Official Service Manual alignment procedure if someone can verify....As Relative as the Indicated S9 level to Actual -- Dbm signal Level is, the Most Important S Meter Usefulness Is for the Indicated S Meter reading to Drop 1 S unit Per each 6 Dbm Actual Signal level Reduction....If the Receiver's indicated S Units to -- 6 Dbm step Reductions Isn't fairly Calibrated from S9 to S1,
Agreed, I think. The only thing the S-meter is good for is relative comparison. Thanks for watching Tom.
good video but you know someone somewhere is going to tell you how wrong you are. 😀lol
I’m waiting for it 👍
@@TheSmokinApe Post this to the 3 letter sight to find the error of your ways/
The line out text my Bad !! Sorry....
lol
Interesting how they charged the price they do when the ftdx10 has way better specs and being sold at a all time low price of 1350 😉yes I understand it’s not a portable rig so comparing isn’t fair but the two rigs released during covid and their price. Well I guess comparing a dual conversion to a SDR isn’t kosher either 😊
Love the comments Kevin!
Does the FTDX10 do UHF/VHF/D-Star? Might explain the price better....
@@twohandsandaradio no they did not redo the 991a which does hf-uhf plus digital Fusion. The ftdx10 took the 3k place in its more a contesting rig with shift width notch n contour easily accessible.I’m still waiting on the 818 revamp with digital I think they could do it on the 710/ftdx10 platform maybe even get a 50w output 😉
It's too bad u always have to incorporate evidence for the naysayers into your videos. It seems a waste of time cause as naysayers go, they will nay and nay and nay away, cause that's their MO. Great Video APE! Hope you and your family have an awesome holiday and beautiful new year. Peace!
Hey Gap, happy holidays to y'all!
Let the flames 🔥 begin. I hope you know all the FanBoi are going to rage 😡 Hell have no fury like a icom FanBoi being burned on a YT Vid 😮 you can’t argue specs with sum of the following. Not even when you need to add toe roids and common mode ferrite cores to block out the unwanted signals. Flame suit engaged Yaesu4LIFE 😂
lol
The money you spend on that rig its supposed to be on in the factory they celebrate it at the factory signal generator etc and thier test equipment is always calibrated and documented.
It will accurately read S9 if the RFG is set to 100%
You didn't understand it at all!
I’m not sure you did
If this video isn't well *received* by ICOM fans, now we know why 😆
lol. In all fairness, it did show an s9 with the RFG at 100%
You only use RF gain to reduce the signal from a close powerful signal, otherwise the rf gain should always be at 100%, rtfm.
I did read it short pants, and it didn’t say that…. Maybe you need to RTFM 😑