My video on the issue of the BBC's support of Transphobia: ruclips.net/video/aN4uc0HZrWE/видео.html Shaun's video, which includes some additional confirmed information: ruclips.net/video/b4buJMMiwcg/видео.html
@UCIiJVTJTsJ8s0oczFIOM0vQ The video explains quite clear why the BBC's article is transphobic. I'm no expert on the issue, but if I can understand the message in the video, there's hope that more people will understand. An easy way for me to understand why the article was troublesome was to change the words of "lesbian" and "woman" to "christian" and "trans" to "jew". Then I easily understood that this article was written in a transphobic way.
Nope,it's mad and a bit sad that you can't see that BBC has drank the kool aid, but that's the madness of your confirmation bias and your extremism.I hope you grow put of it .
In defence of Vinder - I at least appreciate that there is a companion (maybe not fully, but whatever...) that is not from modern day Earth. His backstory was kind of interesting, probably for that reason.
I'm actually wondering...While 13 thinks Jo is her future it wasnt really confirmed, could we be seeing the far FUTURE of the Doctor's life (assuming Gallifrey is brought back)?
I really love Jo Martin and think she should be the next doctor! She’s so amazing even in the smallest of scenes. I would get over all this Timeless Child nonsense if in the end 13 regenerates into Jo Martin
@@j.t.rhoads7658 To be fair, it has been implied before that the Doctor revisits old faces eventually. That might be a nice way to give more time to this Doctor, have 13 regenerate into a version of her. As much as I've disliked much of the rest that has gone on since Chibnall took over, I really love Jo Martin's portrayal of the Doctor.
@XML studios True, someone said that maybe they were just on some outpost during the Time War and missed the destruction of Gallifrey, but while tech possible, revealing that there were apparently a significant amount of Time Lords just doing their secret jobs all along, REALLY damages pretty much everything the Doctor's been thru since the new show started! I would honestly kinda hate it if that's been true...(and still waiting for an explanation of just HOW Swarm escaped)
Did anyone else think that the resolution to the whole broken temple thing was way too easy? Like the Doctor said, “hey, get some more Mara up in here!” And they were like, “Oh, hadn’t thought of that! Okay, fixed it!”
I was out of the story by that point and just watching with my brain off. So no, i didn’t notice that, but a very good point. Even the resolution to the cliffhanger felt off too, as the Doctor just moves herself and Dan across the room in a second while everyone else stands still. Wasn’t aware the Doctor had super speed.
@@rosco31100 aren't weeping angels quantum locked when /anyone/ is looking at them? So the three of them could just take turns watching the Angel, and as long as all three didn't blink or look away at the same time, and they keep the lights on, they're good?
@@natbarmore I wasn't talking about weeping angles. I'm talking about how the Doctor drags Dan across the room and gets on one of the podium things along with him all in the space before Swarm can snap their fingers. (I meant last weeks cliffhanger, not this weeks, if that's where I've confused you.)
I really want to see a version of the Doctor's 'memory' sequences acted fully by Jo Martin and the characters who were with her incarnation at the time. Also am I the only who finds it weird that the random Victorian guy has been in every episode? Seriously Chibnall, just leave him until it's his episode.
Agreed. I feel like once Jodie looked in the mirror we should have shifted to Jo Martin's perspective, and had Jodie appear as a glitch in time and her companions timelines.
4:55 There is now a behind the scenes video on the official DW channel titled "The Return of the Fugitive Doctor", in it Jody basically reveals that acting directions for 13th are to not to command the screen in the contrast to Fugitive.
The pacing of this episode felt off to me, dragging through scenes that don't add much and rushing through scenes that should be more important. It uses a surreal structure, but it doesn't do much with it. The angels scenes were too quick to build any suspense and I was also frustrated that they finally give a scene to the Fugitive Doctor but Jodie is the one who acts it (the switching between the two was jarring). And as bad as "The Wedding of River Song" is, at least it does show a temporal crisis in a comprehensive and visual manner, instead of having a villain monologuing it.
"dragging through scenes that don't add much and rushing through scenes that should be more important" That is exactly the way I felt. A blurb about the Weeping Angels, a blurb with the old woman telling the Doctor the Universe was going to end because the Doctor CAUSED the flux? That seemed really important but it was so brief it didn't even get noticed in the context of this review. Also, Bel wondering if he will look the same (how long have they been apart and is Vinder able to somehow regenerate???) I almost feel like they trying to be a bit to clever for their own good. Moffitt could pull that off sometimes, but I don't think Chibnall can
Gabriel Santos … oh jesus oh no I fear you’re right, it makes sense and it would definitely be something Chib would do. Oh god. Now it’s stuck in my brain.
Yeah i was glad they were getting ... visions, to develop where they were all emotionally sitting, but the doctor immidiately interupts them and they catch on pretty quickly. The whole thing felt like a plot device just to feel like somethings happening but we didnt learn about diane, yaz doesnt know these people (maybe she does after she gets hit by an angel, but no meaning yet) and its all there just to tease "the flux is because of you!" and defeat swarms ... finger click that did ... something ... by bringing more mouri by becoming one and ... there were 2, then 3, they brought four ... i dunno. But yeah, not much actually gets established here because they seem to gloss over why it should matter in the effort to make it feel chaotic for the doctor.
I think this episode could of done better if we got each characters story in order not just scrambled up, like the doctor first and her story and then she gets out of it, then we go to Dan ,his story and then the doctor saves him ,then Yaz then vinder instead of it all mixed up. Maybe just before they leave the doctor gets one more flash back of her life then they all leave and then the ending with the weeping angle twist. Also bels story could still be scattered out in between the main characters stories but I think that would make a better structure
Actually that cliff hanger was necessary in this episode , cause Yaz tried to get rid of the angel by smashing the console , and 'the image of an angel becomes an angel itself ' definitely is canon so Yaz should not have been able to get rid of the angel . Which is exactly what happened , the angel just kinda sorta went into her phone .
'the image of an angel becomes an angel itself ' I always disliked that aspect. They were a creepy, cool, scary villain who killed you in an interesting way, but was also rather sad because it could never see another of even it's own kind. Then any picture could become one and suddenly they were just indestructible magic that had no rules, and could do whatever the writer wanted.
“The image of an angel becomes an angel itself” is canon but it’s also been largely ignored by canon luckily, otherwise every single picture of the Statue of Liberty would be an angel. God I really dislike that aspect.
@@lilithhedwig5408 I'm not sure , was the statue of liberty always an angel or did it just become one when the angels overran New York with their 'temporal energy' ?
@@Here_is_Waldo Yeah , i get your point , when it comes to doctor who the rules are just so infrequently adhered to that in the end we can remember the ones we want to and just forget about the rest ....
I think this is an example of what happens when a 10 episode Season is reduced to 6. War of the Sontarans is my favourite thus far and i am intrigued to the mysteries being threaded in the series. I wish the Companions had been given more emotional stories in their timelines because that could be really interesting to learn of our characters on a deeper level. I hope the cliffhanger isn't resolved immediately like the last one. I adored seeing Jo Martin!
I feel like all of this should’ve been spread across the three series. All the timeless child stuff should’ve been series 11, the flux should’ve been series 12, and Swarm and the aftermath of the flux should’ve been series 13.
@@bakasta5992 True. Season 11 seems completly wasted and void of any major development. They could have spread the big bad evil story arc over three seasons.
Yeah, I get what you mean. Some people think we might get an answer for his character in Chapter Five due to Kevin McNally wearing Regency era clothing.
So is anyone going to talk about the old woman who appeared near the end in the Doctor's time stream that stated it was the Doctor who was causing the flux and that this Universe would be destroyed. I kinda saw that as a big deal
I think the problem with bringing in Jo for these well, extended cameos (let's be honest), is it leaves us wanting that. It's a bit like Chibs is walking with us through the grocery story and we see Jo's Doctor on display and we say 'Mr. Chibnal can we Jo Doctor?' and Chibs says 'We have Jo Doctor at home'....and we get home and it's Jodie....which is you know....not Jo Martin....
Doctor Who has always been about world building. Whenever the Doctor visits a new timeline or planet, you get introduced to new characters (The locals) to help you understand the time and the world, they're like tour guides for the adventure.
Something tells me Vinder and that lady may end up being the doctors parents somehow. I do find it amusing John Bishop has managed to completely sell who Dan is as character more than anyone else from the Fam ever did.
I was wondering about this last night. The Angels are conscious. Theoretically, they don't have to send someone back in time with a touch. What if there are Angels that are not malicious, well as long as they're not hungry, and could ally themselves with other species? Intriguing question.
@@chrisandersen5635 Only if everyone was wearing blindfolds lol. Yup, allying yourself with Angels could work, if they're fed enough. Angels are incredibly fast and incredibly strong. You could also EASILY make an army of angels with just a few mirrors. Angels: "what do you have to offer" Ally: "i can rotate you if you ever get stuck staring at someone"
@@chrisandersen5635 I do not remember very clearly, but I think there was an episode in BF, on Doom Coalition I suppose, where Angels allied with some timelord against other timelords.
So much of Chibnalls DW writing comes across as kindergarten-esque, i mean i only have a cursory interest in physics but i do know that time isn't some elusive thing, we understand it pretty well, there isnt even an individual thing called time, physicists figured it out ages ago that space/time are like, the same thing, or at the very least they are so connected you cannot separate them. Sure, the average viewer isnt going to pick up on smaller things like that, but im sure im not the only one who did, it feels like Chibnall is writing episodes for the original run of Doctor Who, not modern Who
Did anyone else think that Jodie Whittaker as the Police Officer was the best performance she's given in the entire show? As soon as she went back to the Doctor she felt like she was acting but as just a normal police officer she felt like she actually inhabited the role.
Bel's Story started as a cool new way to start a story, same as hearing the Doctor's narration, this is DW like we've never seen it before! I really have no reason to care about Bel, since we don't know who she is till the end, but at least seeing her take out a Cyber Squad is a little more believable than senior citizens taking out a squad of Sontarans with a wok. At first I though Tigimi was an AI, but now I'm thinking it's a device that communicates with her unborn child? REALLY hope they don't pull some Timey Wimey BS to reveal the kid is the Doctor, and Vinder and Bel are her parents...
"REALLY hope they don't pull some Timey Wimey BS to reveal the kid is the Doctor, and Vinder and Bel are her parents..." -- from the moment the episode revealed that Bel was pregnant and that Vinder was the father my thought was that they are going to turn out to be the Doctor's real parents.
I think Bel was the only part of this episode that I liked. It never occurred to me that her child could be the doctor. I wouldn't have a problem with that, partly because it would mean the timeless child storyline will be quickly resolved.
@@ract46 I had the same thought. I don't think they would have introduced her pregnancy just to give Vinder more of backstory. I mean, unless the child serves some purpose in the greater narrative his entire character is pointless. However, if the unborn child turns out to be the timeless child, fine. If it turns out to be the Doctor, good lord, I do not want to be on the internet after that.
Was there any reason given as to why Yas and Vinder's timeline goofery had the others projected over existing people from their memories, while Dan just got the doctor floating awkwardly and exposition dumping on him from time to time?
I wish I could be in the writers room as they came up with this. I just want to know the general discussions and who thought this (as a final product) was a good idea. The dialogue in this episode felt like a student struggling to meet the minimum word count. How are people letting this through????
I wasn’t even aware the term “gamer girl” existed. Does that mean I’m a “gamer guy”? If not then it’s an odd term that just draws attention to girls or women that just happen to play video games.
I am still not a big fan of the "Timeless Child" twist since I feel it retcons too much of the series' continuity and the Doctor as a character. If they had just gone the route of The Doctor lived an entire regeneration cycle that they chose to forget about (like how Capaldi forgot Clara) I think that would have worked fine, but I feel the route they went goes against too much of the established Time Lord lore/history of Gallifrey. Plus, before this twist The Doctor was just an average Time Lord who was interested in Earth/loved exploring the universe while the rest of the Time Lords looked down on other forms of life and chose to isolate themselves, but if Time Lord society as we know it only exists because of The Timeless Child then The Doctor would have been more respected and been aware of their significance. So, I blame this idea solely on Chibnall since I feel this twist wouldn't have worked regardless of who was The Doctor, but I do like Whitaker as The Doctor.
AMEN. One Regen cycle would have been much more... digestible? And do the exact same story beats they're doing here. The Timeless Child thing just seems like.. "Welp, the Doctor's immortal with infinite lives. She's unique and more awesome then everyone and those are the facts forever."
Yeah, there’s this thing in fiction which people refer to as ‘double mumbo jumbo’. The Doctor being a renegade time-lord who escaped the banality of their people to explore time and space is the original mumbo jumbo, and has always been real backbone of the show. The Doctor ALSO being a random unknown entity who could mysteriously regenerate and knows very little about themselves or their past is double mumbo jumbo. It just doesn’t work. As a classic and new who fan of 40 years, I fucking hate it. Burdening the first female Doctor with this tripe is also a dick move. I really hope it gets retconned very quickly.
@@HamishsRobot The Doctor was originally an alien cut off from his home planet. regeneration came three years later (but not named until 1974 along with the planets name), the reveal of the god like Time Lords came 6 years later. Omega in 1973, the Morbius faces in 1975 and Rassilon, the Time Lord chapters and the regeneration cycle in 1976. So at what point does this become mumbo jumbo or seen as on going development of the Doctor, his background and his people?
Maybe I'm not reading it through the same lens (which is often the case) but I just thought that Yaz's sister was attempting to pretend to be a gamer girl through her own misguided belief that this would make some guy like her. It gave me flashbacks to when I was younger and tried different things in the moronic belief that girls would like me for it. Anyway, I'm completely enjoying the new series. And I'm waiting for the old woman who talked to The Doctor to wind up being the White Guardian.
Once again, Chibnall is expecting us to not get the general gist from subtle hints --- just like Orphan 55. During the division stuff, we see Karvanister, but with a 'Dan' filter -- called a Dog, the Weapon, yet they HAD to superimpose him over it because apparently it wasn't clear.
3 things that bothered me in this episode are: 1 - The Flux in the first episode seemed to disintegrate everything it touched, just like Swarm and Azure do. But now we still have planets and stuff. The aftermath of the Flux in Vinder's planet looks much more like the aftermath of a war, with ruined buildings and stuff. 2 - How the hell did those normal people survive the Flux? Again, in first episode it was a giant cloud that could engulf entire planets and leave no survivors behind. And yet, not only the Cybermen and Daleks survive, but Vinder's wife and we also see some people that get erased by the time fireflies thingy. Also, even though the Doctor had her memories erased, how the hell does she not know about the Flux since it is such a well known and documented phenomena? The Daleks, Cybermen and Sontaran knew about it and Belle calls it "the Flux", implying that she either knows what it is, or interrogated someone who knew. 3 - Half way through the season and Chibnall is still introducing new mysteries. Who the hell was that old lady that the Doctor encounters? She says that the time damage was intended and that the Ravagers were useful and were reintroduced. She also says the Flux came for the Doctor for some reason and that it was time for this universe to end. She was also able to notice the Doctor traveling on the timelines and fish her out of it and seemed to be intimately familiar with the Doctor. This much knowledge and power implies to me that she is some higher form of existance. Maybe someome from the Doctor's original species.
I still hope they retcon the timeless child so that it was Susan the whole time. The doctor finds out how the timelords are using her and adopts her and runs away. Then after they part in Hartnells era she regenerates and gets a TARDIS and goes on new adventures
It would actually explain why she was suddenly unceremoniously dumped in a post-apocalyptic future in Dalek Invasion of Earth too, since The Doctor needed to hide her in a point in history away from the Time Lords!
I thought the episode was very boring, to be honest. It's weird the FLUX could destroy big planets in the first episode... but still there are planets and people in this post apocalypse time.
@@stephjovi I imagine "kitchen-sinking" is tantamount to including everything and the kitchen sink, while a kitchen-sink drama revolves around day to day domesticity. British soap operas being a prime example of the form. Doctor Who certainly isn't the latter.
Yeah I can see the confusion- Yes kitchen sink dramas do refer to soaps but in this instance it refers to the phrase "Everything but the kitchen sink" ie throwing it all in there.
I thought it would've been cool if we could've seen some more moments in the Doctor's timeline, just seeing a few of the iconic moments through that lense would've been fun. Since the others seemed to be jumping around their lives a lot more while the Doctor was basically confined to that one event
Best episode of the season so far, only criticism I’ve seen is “It’s hard to follow”, but as Doctor Who fans we are or should be entirely used to Timey Wimey shenanigans, I found it incredibly easy to follow.
I completely agree! I loved this episode, heck, I love this whole series! Maybe I'm biased because it's the first time that i can watch it live as it airs but still - I think it's easily the best of the Chibnall era and the 13th Doctor so far!
@@GamerWho I don't think it was unstructured just because it had four flashbacks telling this story. It was similar to Fragments from Torchwood (ehich Chibnall also wrote by the way) but here each person's flashbacks was intercut with the others but they all lead to a conclusion and were either setting up stuff or revealing more about each characters, sometimes both.
I feel like something that everyone's missing is the naming of things. Atropos is a Greek mythological goddess and mother to the fates, otherwise known as the Moirai. The three Fates presided over, shocker, fate and destiny. I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to presume that the planet "Time" is actually, in reality, a previous version of Gallifrey and that the "Time Lord" is incredibly literal in that they are Lords (as in they own land) of Time (the land.) Either way, this episode was a mess for me. Like episode 1, this sort of just feels like a bunch of "bad wolves" thrown together - they're clues to several mystery boxes packed into one big mystery box and I just... I can't really stand it. I wouldn't necessarily call this episode better than the first but I'll say so anyway just because it had more Jacob Anderson and I like him as an actor. I agree with a lot of what you said, all in all. Just thought I'd add a little something and see if it sticks. Edit: it's worth mentioning that "Atropos" themselves, specifically, means "unalterable" or "inflexible." So... There's that. I also made a mistake in that she isn't the mother of the Moirai but one of the three Moirai herself. Apologies.
The mysterious lady was moving her hands like she was weaving too, it's all tied back into the fates. Mauri (however it's spelt) is clearly Moirai too.
Honestly, when I saw the Weeping Angel in the time storm, I kinda wanted to see the Doctor try to team up with it. They're sentient, if the universe is falling apart one could maybe be reasoned with, at least temporarily. And it would make for a neat, tense partnership where I think 13 could really shine
Honestly I spent half this episode thinking about how disorienting this episode could be for casual viewers, but after you mentioned just how much exposition there is here I do wonder if maybe Chibnall was too worried he'd lose the audience (especially as his era hasn't been heavily mindfucky or full of timey wimey puzzles) and decided to implement this concept whilst also having the Doctor dump some exposition to explain to the characters and audience in case. I do like this episode myself, I think whilst it balances quite a lot, it is kinda meant to be for each character (whereas episode 1 was a lot for the sake of introductions that I don't really think needed to all be there, or at least needed more exploration). My main issue that I have with this episode is the runtime is just a little too short to explore these separate timelines for each character properly. From memory, we basically got a couple sequences with Dan but only learned little bits about his past, quite a few with Vinder which I think was the best done as well as a couple for Yaz but they didn't really bring us much. I think showing us Dan being lost, being confused about if everything prior to that moment was imagined or not, and both Vinder and Yaz (moreso Yaz) work out the situations with Yaz trying to work out how to get out of it would really show the influence time with the Doctor has had on Yaz, plus her seeing everyone as the Doctor could play into her adoration of the Doctor too and could show her being torn between home life and the Doctor. I think this episode has a lot of interesting ideas, but some of the execution just wasn't what I think it could've been, when I think this could be a really good opportunity to really explore and present us with each character and how they're coping in the same situation on their own: Dan with uncertainty, Vinder understanding but also following along, Yaz trying to work out a way out and the Doctor trying to understand her past and figure out a solution to this situation. I think it gave us some of those elements and did okay, but I think having only a couple scenes with Yaz, each just kinda bringing an angel into it, wasn't enough. It didn't really show us Yaz enough, and the threat of an angel taking Yaz was brought up but then swiftly moved on from (although admittedly there's next episode which could continue that setup). Again, I do like this episode but it's a little lacking in areas I was really hopeful for (also I wish Jo became the predominant Doctor on screen with Jodie flashing in once we saw her in the mirror, just to give her more screentime and presence, I love Jo so much)
Yes, Jo Martin's really got a presence! Even though it was almost just a cameo. I feel bad for Jodie, too. All that info dump, and her confusion could be so much more, less of "who am I", more of "what happened, what did they do to me and who did it" at least. And she's had to do that "sniping at Yaz" thing for the third episode now, basically in the same way again and again. I absolutely agree about Vinder and Dan being thrown in so Chibnall doesn't have to deepen the Doctor-Yaz relationship. That, and demographics, to put it nicely... They've been teasing the TC stuff for so long now, and however much we like it, it's time to start delivering whatever payoff they have in mind. Start pulling everything together. And you're right, the Flux doesn't feel all that interesting in itself. Btw., why didn't it "eat" Vinder's planet? Why didn't we learn the planet's name? And what does this space vs time thing really mean, if anything? How long does that pregnancy last, or is it a timey-wimey thing? Will the child be Very Special, maybe even Timeless? (I hope not.) I suspect the next episde will be enjoyable for its own sake, but give us little progress for the overarching plot. Like episode 2. Well, we got all the time in the world, I guess...
My thought was that the Angels are able to move so fast by disconnecting from time in the first place, and this is intended to tie in. My dad wonders if the Angels are trying to help in some way.
Did anyone else feel the editing was a little off? Like the resolution to the cliffhanger was very choppy and messy and was the Doctor supposed to be moving at Super speed or something cause she did a lot in that 1 second. Mentally I could understand but to physically move herself and Dan around the room into exact positions in less than a second feels like the cliffhanger wasn’t thought through. But yeah, the editing. I know I’m probably over focusing, but there’s one scene stuck in my head which is when Yaz is in the police car and she looks back at the angel that has disappeared. And then the next shot she’s looking forward, whereas we would normally have her turning her head back around. I know it’s a bit pick but it did break my immersion and after that I never really got back into the story which was a shame.
I've seen it suggested that some of the editing and flow jank may have been due to having to shoot around COVID restrictions and how they were even allowed to film. Which I don't think is confirmed, but it would make sense.
What is it with this show and shortchanging the menace of alien threats?! Just when the Ravagers were really impressing all of us with how scary they were, the flashback reveals that they can be easily defeated with the same weaopn that caged Dan in the first ep, which we have no reason to think is a unique one, it looks like it's quite the common tool! Also, are we meant to think that that's really Karvanista?? How old is he, then and why doesn't he recognize the name "Doctor"?
I'm probably reaching here, but I'm thinking that Flux has a double meaning. Yes, it's a thing that's destroying the universe, but 'in flux' also means constantly changes. I think we can describe that this is what is happening with time - it's in flux. It's kinda totally messed up. Especially in this episode. The Sontarans took advantage of The Flux and basically changed history or attempted to interfere with it. Then the team (and Vinder) got thrown into their own timestreams (and for some reason, Yaz glitched into Vinder's as well, which is confusing) and The Weeping Angels take people out of their own time and next week's episode looks like it is based in the past. And then there's that Williamson dude who is both out of his time, but also seems comfortable with aliens and whatever is going on with him. So, I think Flux does kind of make enough sense to be the title, if we take it with this double meaning in mind. I hope I'm making sense I was confused by parts of this episode, but also, for me, it helped in a weird way to connect with the characters' own confusion. I did enjoy it despite all that. I instantly liked Bel's story, I hope we see more of her. This episode had me on the edge of my seat, but I do have to watch it again. I'm at the stage where I'm putting my trust into that it will all come together by the end of chapter 6, unless they're planning on stretching some of the plot into the specials.
Regarding the blue fireflies. They had a similar creature in the X-Files episode "Darkness Falls". And they were realized with a MUCH better effect in that episode...and that was 27 YEARS AGO. The blue sparks do not affect the environment. Their illumination doesn't reflect off of anything. They are just pasted in.
It hit me with this episode. Whitakers doctor never actively seeks anything. She discovers the flux because it just comes up. She discovers Swarm because he actively escapes and contacts her. She discovers ... old lady ... because she jumps in just to save yaz and suddenly realises she has a chance. She doesnt even seem to think about it, and then she suddenly goes "WHY WONT ANYONE TELL ME." Which is a great moment where whitaker gets to let loose but halfway through, everything feels contrived. The flux just happens, the dog guy just shows up whenever dan is in danger, the doctor instinctively jumps into the time stream but was only there because yaz coincidentally ended up there the same time swarm did and swarm PLANNED for her to sacrifice herself AND dan??? Im glad the plot is developing, but its at the expense of everything else. And like you said, "we dont have time for whitaker to actively seek answers to the main plot because we have more characters". Why is Bel and Vinder given an active EMOTIONALLY DRIVEN quest, while whitaker is stumbling upon a nugget of info once per episode and then going "dont worry dan, we totally want to know these things. The flux and division are totslly the A plot." We're in the same problem in s12, where whitaker stumbles across "oh, the master destroyed gallifrey..im ssd and i'll deal with that later. Oh theres another doctor, i guess i'll deal with that in the finale. Oh, i'm the thing we mentioned in that one episode in s11, i guess that doesnt matter, no actually im really upset about it but look daleks, oh look the flux i hope that somehow links to the thing that i supposedly care about - oh look sontarens, sorry timeless child thing, im busy." Filler episodes wouldnt be an issue usually, but this is meant to be 6 eps of one single story. And the filler that usually goes into 10 episodes is being spread across 6, which is bogging it down. Meanwhile, thr Overall Arc is being confused for 'withholding information until the finale reveals it' and the finale explaining it will confuse a payoff for a reveal; a reveal is nothing without the consequences that follow, the answer isnt itself an arc, cause thats why s12 gave the sense of "now we need another season to follw througb on this". Its stalling the premise rather than developing it. Theres a way to interweave multiple plots, but this isnt it. They all need to be a direct consequence or splinter out from the actions the doctor takes to slowly understand her past ... but shes not understandjng it, she's not acting on it, and everything else is getting more time despite having no link to it yet. On first watch, everytime they cut to Bel i was like 'theres no transition to this' and the second time i was like 'oh right, who cares, tell this story another time" and if like a friend suggested, the baby is the timeless child ... then reveal that. What is this habit of stalling reveals until the finale, like reveals and plot information are the only element of storytelling... wheres the heart.
I am confused and worried about the rest of the series. we only have 3 episode left and more questions and no answers. I honestly was more optimistic about this series because I felt serialized storytelling would suit Chibnall more but I am just utterly bewildered.
With them making a point that the timelines they were put into were their past and future - with Yaz not having experienced hers yet - I'm really hoping there'll be a twist where the Fugitive Doctor and the Ravagers are enemies from the Doctor's future, not past. The Timeless Child being the reason she can't remember could be a red herring and it's actually a River Song scenario. Probably won't happen though, think I'm just not ready to give up hope for Jo Martin being the next doctor
The couple ..doctors parents?? The sky at the end when the dropped him off was all purple like the flashback of timeless child. Angles are not the protagonist they are gonna team up with the doctor
I'm starting to think this is a bait and switch. I think their going with the 6B theory, which has been suggested before. The fugitive doctor is between regeneration 2 and 3, which explains the police box, and the timeless child will end up being the master.
Moirae and Atropos isn't *exactly* Chibnall shitty naming, they're mythology names. Greek specifically, iirc, possibly Roman I forget The Moirae sisters are three beings who work with the thread of fate yada-yada, one of them is Atropos, who is the eldest and the one who cuts the thread of fate, signifying an end of life The other sisters are Clotho and Lachesis, who spin and measure the threads respectively
Honestly, I object to people saying the 'time particle' effects are like the old days, the effects for the Helix in The Masque of Mandragora were markedly better than this...
The dialogue in this episode was just so cringe. I was cringing for the majority of the runtime. In specific, anything that the Ravagers said ("The Mouri must not be allowed back in. They are banished! Time is not their prisoner!" really?) and Vinder's little speech about protecting the constitution had me feeling bad for the actors...
I think this episode would be much better if it was about the charecters trapped in this timestream, and slowly realising it isn't real then trying to break out. Kind of like an extended version of the bits in Zygon Inversion where Clara is in the dream world of her flat.
I liked it. I really enjoyed the appearance of The Ruth Doctor and I absolutely loved the line: “Who are you, and why are you in my reflection?” That felt like a very Doctor thing to say in this scenario. The crazy time hopping was a bit confusing, but I think I managed to muddle through and got it by the end. I also really liked the appearances of the Daleks and Cybermen. Still waiting on what the Flux exactly is or even why it’s that important considering most of these things involved haven’t really been all that connected to it or explained it, but, let’s hope it all comes around by Episode Six.
This is the episode that put my kids off watching any more of this season - to the point where one said "nah, I'll wait until Chibnall's gone and RTD's back in charge" when I asked if he wanted to watch _Village of the Angels_ Again, a lot more of Chibnall wanking himself and calling it a script. Now, not only is the Doctor the most important figure in all Time Lord/Gallifreyan history, this whole universe-threatening thing is entirely because someone's pissed off with the Doctor - and I thought Moffat's "Lonely God" rubbish was OTT!
It's weird how some aspects of the plot, like the Doctor being drawn into different time streams are over-explained, but the main threat and what's at stake with the Flux and time going wrong aren't that well defined
You didn t talk about the woman that pulled the doctor before she got out the time stream And how she is the woman covering her eyes in that one episode from tennant the master donna and her grandfather, and how now we certainly know she is not the doctor's mother
Chibnall didn’t create the name Moirae, it’s taken from myth. The Moirae are The Fates from Greek mythology, one of whom was named Atropos. She was the one who cut the threads.
I thought the ep was called, “Once, upon Time”, (without the “a”) as in the planet Time? I need to rewatch it, a lot was going on! I did love to see the Fugitive Doctor back. I really wish she would become the next Doctor for good. Such great presence.
I understood during the episode those blue swarm creatures operated similarly to the monsters of Fathers Day, obliterating anything that opposed canon time, however running completely rampant due to the destruction of time's ordinary flow post-flux. The companions were pushed into and kept in their own timelines via the Doctor's meddling in an attempt to camoflauge them from these swarms. I may also be entirely incorrect in my memory of their exploration. With that said, if this is the case and the exploration of unhinged time continues, the swarm creatures may reappear and have a larger impact in the future of the Flux story.
@@CouncilofGeeks Yes, I know that, but in your discussion you pondered why the title ‘Once upon a time’ had never been used until now, but it’s not the same as ‘Once, upon Time’. In any case, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
After the first ep aired, I was discussing it online, and a friend said, and i quote: "GOOD LORD did the writer’s room play mad libs with old themes or something? WTaF?" .... I'm pretty sure she's spot on and that is what happened... Honestly I feel the whole things is messy as, but I will watch the whole thing and see if my mind is changed by the end.. I do like the Fugitive Doctor, I will say that with certainty. btw. Cool content. Recently found ya. Subscribed.
Bel, Vinder and the alternate Doctor (YAY) were high points of this for me. I agree that the Doctor going to all the timelines was intrusive, and I also wish each had an interesting story with it, like Vinder. The rest were average days in an average life, and boring. Both the swirly time stuff and Bel's emoji companion seem lifted from "Smile" in series 10. The emoji companion could have been the next evolution of the sentient AI life as was discovered in that ep; which would be really cool. The swirly time stuff just seemed like a direct rip off. And I didn't think any of the time vortex special effects were great. As my kid passing through the living room noted, they looked like people in a video game. I'm sure Chibnall's trying to be more like classic in feel, but we're not in the seventies anymore. The episodic venture is an interesting one that could actually work, but Davies made the changes he did to the pace and structure for good reason. If Chibnall had been the one to bring it back, I think the show would have folded after a season.
I think this episode could of done better if we got each characters story in order not just scrambled up, like the doctor first and her story and then she gets out of it, then we go to Dan ,his story and then the doctor saves him ,then Yaz then vinder instead of it all mixed up. Maybe just before they leave the doctor gets one more flash back of her life then they all leave and then the ending with the weeping angle twist. Also bels story could still be scattered out in between the main characters stories but I think that would make a better structure
6:00 YES!!! SHE LITERALLY WENT THROUGH THIS ARC TWICE ALREADY!!! IN BACK-TO-BACK EPISODES!!! 10:00 no no, that was really awkward, it's just that i've come to expect awkward, clunky, out-of-date boomer dialogue these days 13:11 oh my god, i forgot that the flux has only been in a Single episode out of the first half of the series. what the hell lmao
I'm enjoying it so far, in spite of its flaws, but it feels to me like they're just trying to cram too much into each episode. I'm thinking maybe a couple more episodes or slightly longer episodes might've worked better. One thing I noticed is that episode 2 (which is my favourite, so far) is 10 minutes longer than episodes 1 and 3.
It's become clear to me from the discourse that the balance you say would have worked for you in this story would not have worked for the majority of people watching. There were plenty of people who said they were confused by what went on. I agree with you that there was TOO MUCH exposition and I wish we got to see that '30-40% less explaining' version you describe, but not everyone likes an "uncomfortable watch." Unfortunately, I think it was an idea that was walking a tightrope and just wasn't going to work really well for most of the audience.
This episode was a mess. I was constantly asking myself out loud, "What the fuck is going on here?" The good bits were quite good, like getting more Fugitive Doctor and finding out more about the Ravagers and how they knew The Doctor already. The initial jumping between Dan's and Yas's memories had good bits. I liked Dan and Diane's walk and talk quite a bit, and I liked Dan's reactions to everything when he recognizes that it's all off and not really real. And I liked how Bel's story connected to everything in the end in an emotionally resonant way. But the rest? Meh and ugh and wtf. The entire concept of time and space being at odds and at war and that time has to be held in check and controlled is dumb. Time unraveling and running amok can be good but they're making time out to be some type of fundamentally destructive force. And that all makes no sense. The random old lady, billed as Awsok or something, coming out of nowhere, telling the Doctor she caused the Flux and the universe needs to die and it's all the Doctor's fault was stuffed into this episode needlessly. That character's introduction could easily have been saved for another episode where it wouldn't feel so random and out of place and only adding to confusion. Also, I'm very confused about The Division now because it was introduced very much as a Time Lord agency, but apparently Karvanista is not only in it currently but was also in it at the same time as The Doctor and took part in the same mission that stopped the Ravagers previously? How the fuck old is Karvanista then? None of any of that makes sense, and even if it gets resolved reasonably in the end that won't change the fact that all the introduction and setup was less an intriguing mystery and more a disjointed cluster fuck of ideas.
i think cutting out the initial explanation of the time storm or at least moving it towards the ends of the episode would have made it a lot better. i can't remember which episode, but i know they've done it before where the time/setting keeps changing abruptly. i also think the doctor's confusion would have been sold much better if the audience didn't know what was going on. as in the time storm was messing with the doctor's head too. i agree that it didn't seem like the doctor was actually being affected by the time storm, and i wonder what that could have looked like when well done. maybe something along the lines of "russian doll" i'm really disappointed we won't get to see jodie under RTD.
I watched it with friends and none of us had a clue what was going on (we are both classic and NuWho fans) loved Jo Martin turning up… I follow her on Instagram & that was a very well kept secret! I liked how the weeping angel got the tardis - it reminded me of the line in blink (which I freakin’ LOVE!) For me, it just felt messy last night!
Same. My dad and I have been fans for a long time, and I've never been so confused at a Doctor Who episode. My dad fell asleep, and we both did last week.
The behaviour of the blue particles reminded me of the reapers from "fathers day" - which were actually described as being like bacteria feeding on wounds in time.
And yet, I've read a lot of comments saying it "was too confusing". Those of us who can follow this sort of thing, often forget that other people can't always figure it all out. All in all, I really enjoyed the episode. I do wonder where this Chibnall has been the last two seasons. :P
I think it’s because he’s more used to having a lot of time to develop his stories. Broadchurch was a serialised drama, and (in my opinion his best work on Who prior to his era) the Silurian two-parter from Series 5 was, well, a two parter. He has a lot of ideas to insert into his scripts, especially once you give him the reigns to a show which can literally do anything, and he settles for just putting them all in, I think the most egregious example being Can Your Hear Me. I think his best work is when he’s limited, going to Torchwood, I’m actually someone who defends Cyberwoman. As a script, mind you, but the only major criticism I have of that is the costume, which I’m not sure he had much to do with. I like his stories, but I think he often suits either doing these longer narratives, or having someone to tell him ‘No’.
"Those of us who can follow this sort of thing, often forget that other people can't always figure it all out" The question for me when I encounter that is 'why should I care?' TBH, I often wonder if people have watched the same programme as I have, but I also tend to fine that the answer is 'they didn't, because they're too busy composing the post to tell us how confused they are, rather than, y'know, letting it play out.'
I thought the retcon would be easy. Something something master something something all a dream. Now I feel the whole show is being destroyed out of spite. The angels, the doctor, the past, the lore of time etc. I honestly have no idea what happened in this episode. Just some magic, some exposition, another new character who steals the show and loads of appearances for no reason.
This episode seems to have been a sort of wake up call/trigger for people to realise that the Doctor has been treating Yaz a bit poorly. Mainly because of the contrast of how well she seems to be treating Vinder and Dan, and then we get her basically snapping at Yaz, and seeing those side by side. And seeing the Doctor treat Yaz so poorly is just not nice to watch.
The Doctor literally said to Dan "You don't know what we're dealing with, I do" while he was worrying about his friend. Also, The Doctor seems to snap at Yaz whenever she asks her questions about her. Which fits with this Doctor being very secretive. So I really like it, it adds more dimensions to Thirteen, who seemed like a very happy-go-lucky Doctor at the start.
@Tom Meehan In classic sure. I remember one Doctor left a sour taste that lasted their entire run because of how badly they treated their companion in their first episode. But it is new for New Who, so people who haven't seen classic are getting upset about it now. Even Capaldi may have been a bit care free with the lives of episodic characters but he always tried to treat Clara well. It just isn't to my liking either. At the very least it would be more acceptable if Yaz actually bit back about the Doctor getting shouty at her, but she doesn't. Yaz just stands there and takes it. I hope this builds to something. If it doesn't get addressed at some point in the season I'm going to get very angry over it I think.
@@TheShadowofDragons Treat Clara well? Like when he dumped her in the middle of a decision whether or not to blow up the moon? Or all the other times he treated Clara badly? XD
This one I wasn't sure about at first but it ended up growing on me by the end. I certainly like it better than episode one, as this one actually manages to have its own plot that ties into the serial stuff; and that plot does progress and get resolved at the end. So there's a lot more satisfaction to be had here than episode 1, and some cleverness to appreciate in the ways in which the episode plot and the series plot are interwoven. Also like that they still seem to be making a deliberate effort to avoid the "sonic screwdriver formula" in these episodes (by which I mean, episodes structured like: stumble into the plot, determine what the plot is, wait until the last five minutes of the episode, then vaguely wave the sonic screwdriver at the plot and tell it to go away). It was nice to see this last week and it's nice to see it continue. So, this episode's a slow-burner for sure... but the smoke smells pretty nice.
A good episode. I understood everything. It's complicated, but c'mon, it's Doctor Who, what do you expect? Also, great to see they're going to continue the Fugitive Doctor's story, which was something that intruiged me previous series. So far, my theory about her still holds up, so I'm curious to see if I'm right or not.
For me, convoluted fits better than complicated as so far I've also understood it. If I didn't, then I'd consider it complicated but that's me. I'm glad they're addressing the Fugitive Doctor too, although this episode goes against my hopeful theory and Chibnall seems to be doubling down on what he's stated previously. Not that I expected anything different and I don't think we'll get any definite answer to it until the specials. I don't know what I think overall. I'm definitely intrigued but also feel he's chucking stuff in there unnecessarily. I mean usually we get 1 or 2 big bads a season and so far we've had 4 in 3 episodes. I guarantee the Master will appear before the end, probably the Judoon too. I'm not disappointed though, which can't be said about his first season, and it will all depend on the episodes to come.
@@SnackBath That she is between Doctors 2 and 3. What is known is that after the War Games, the Second Doctor didn't immediately regenerate and worked for the timelords. However, what if he was done with it and stood up against them? They forced a new regeneration upon him that would do it in his place, until he was ready to regenerate.
@@timrob12 that would be cool since I don’t really like the timeless child thing, but I think chibnall probably wants to double down on that whole thing
For me, this episode had a real "throw away 70s Doctor Who story" feel for me, with really cool concept pay offs at the end but a sort of bland story with "emotionally neutral stakes" up to that point. That said, there were some great character moments sprinkled in throughout, and I'm glad I got to see them. I particularly liked how The Doctor was bossed around by that old Division lady, and then wound up bossing Yaz around in a very similar way later on. I do not know if this was intentional and if it will be developed further, but it would be interesting to see if there are any parallels drawn between how The Division bosses The Doctor around and how The Doctor bosses her companions around sometimes (exploring issues like, sometimes the person with the knowledge has to be bossy, and sometimes opinions of the person without the knowledge are surprisingly valuable, etc. etc.) Anyhow, as bland as I thought this episode was, I did like episode two, and the preview of next week looks cool, so maybe I am just more personally attuned to what is going on in the even episodes. I hope some other people out there are enjoying every episode, though!
People need to understand that there's a difference between the issue of complexity and the issue of cohorence. I've heard people say things like "this is real science fiction because it doesn't make sense right away." Sorry, but Moffat wrote that kind of story, not Chibnall. At its core, this story is very simple, there's almost no plot at all, but it has been converted into a collision of different vignettes loosely edited together in a confusing way. This is not complexity; it's just bad editing. It's an illusion of complexity. So far, we've had three episodes, and there's absolutely no reason why everything that has been covered so far couldn't have been wrapped up in a single hour if it had just been organized in a comprehensible way. I also don't understand why Chibnall makes the Doctor say her every thought out loud, and virtually none of them are anything particularly intelligent and sound like explaining to the audience. "Oh, no, I'm stuck in a Time Storm!" etc. Some of it is visually intriguing and there's scattering of interesting ideas here, but like I said, they're a scattering. There's absolutely no focus. IMO these episodes are just textbook examples of bad screenwriting. I wish Jodie were staying on a few more seasons so maybe we could see if RTD would give her something better to work with, because I don't think she's gotten anything to sink her teeth into yet.
I started watching Doctor Who at age 8 in 1975. Seeing the VFX in this episode was such a touch of nostalgia, taking me all the way back to the dark days of low budget Who.
Any minute now we'll get a monster made of bubble wrap! It was oddly jarring that the vfx this week were so poor and in several places. Maybe the budget was blown on the glorious shots of the flux in episode 1?
Ever since their appearances past Angels Take Manhattan the Weeping Angela's appearances have been very hit or miss imo. Even within this very episode, they were horrifying up until the final scene which was just cheesy
Favorite episode so far, I was kinda baffled when I saw so many people saying they were lost? It really seemed pretty straight forward to me, but maybe I just missed the confusing parts or was more forgiving of them? Either way, I really enjoyed this one!
I have one question or lets say problem with Timeless Child storyline. (Well more than 1 but lets focus on this one right now) We know Doctor had a life before Harknell and Ruth Doctor was basically kind of a soldier for this organization. Somehow she regenerates at some point and when she arrives at Gallifrey the first time she is a small and rather helpless child. Did she lost her memories before being experimented then? And why did she only regenerated into kids and not any adults?
It was so weird, you see Jo Martin be the Doctor and you're like "Yes! Gimme more" and then it cuts back to Jodie, and then back to Jo, and then back to Jodie... and so on and so forth. Like c'mon, if you're gonna give me a Doctor who acutally really works then show them for longer! Please!
I think the flux is still important, it was said to be a weapon of space against time, right? Space and time are at war, which is an interesting concept.
6:55 Clearly the Moirai like from Greek Mythology but everyone seems to be pronouncing it their own personal way. EDIT: Except I guess they have a whole reserve of them in case replacements are needed. Probably good since it's a pretty important job.
My video on the issue of the BBC's support of Transphobia: ruclips.net/video/aN4uc0HZrWE/видео.html
Shaun's video, which includes some additional confirmed information: ruclips.net/video/b4buJMMiwcg/видео.html
Such an important message 👏
@UCIiJVTJTsJ8s0oczFIOM0vQ The video explains quite clear why the BBC's article is transphobic. I'm no expert on the issue, but if I can understand the message in the video, there's hope that more people will understand. An easy way for me to understand why the article was troublesome was to change the words of "lesbian" and "woman" to "christian" and "trans" to "jew". Then I easily understood that this article was written in a transphobic way.
Nope,it's mad and a bit sad that you can't see that BBC has drank the kool aid, but that's the madness of your confirmation bias and your extremism.I hope you grow put of it .
@@GOFFMEISTER what Kool aid did they drink
In defence of Vinder - I at least appreciate that there is a companion (maybe not fully, but whatever...) that is not from modern day Earth. His backstory was kind of interesting, probably for that reason.
That's true, but the fact that he's the third wheel of a 2/3rds from modern earth companion trio kind of dims that bright spot.
I completely agree about Jo Martin, on the flashes we had of her she absolutely nailed it and has a great presence. I would love to see more of her!
I'm actually wondering...While 13 thinks Jo is her future it wasnt really confirmed, could we be seeing the far FUTURE of the Doctor's life (assuming Gallifrey is brought back)?
I really love Jo Martin and think she should be the next doctor! She’s so amazing even in the smallest of scenes. I would get over all this Timeless Child nonsense if in the end 13 regenerates into Jo Martin
@@j.t.rhoads7658 To be fair, it has been implied before that the Doctor revisits old faces eventually. That might be a nice way to give more time to this Doctor, have 13 regenerate into a version of her.
As much as I've disliked much of the rest that has gone on since Chibnall took over, I really love Jo Martin's portrayal of the Doctor.
@XML studios True, someone said that maybe they were just on some outpost during the Time War and missed the destruction of Gallifrey, but while tech possible, revealing that there were apparently a significant amount of Time Lords just doing their secret jobs all along, REALLY damages pretty much everything the Doctor's been thru since the new show started! I would honestly kinda hate it if that's been true...(and still waiting for an explanation of just HOW Swarm escaped)
Her demanding presence reminds me of River Song. Both characters instantly demand attention and interest, even with their different personalities.
Did anyone else think that the resolution to the whole broken temple thing was way too easy? Like the Doctor said, “hey, get some more Mara up in here!” And they were like, “Oh, hadn’t thought of that! Okay, fixed it!”
I was out of the story by that point and just watching with my brain off. So no, i didn’t notice that, but a very good point. Even the resolution to the cliffhanger felt off too, as the Doctor just moves herself and Dan across the room in a second while everyone else stands still. Wasn’t aware the Doctor had super speed.
@@rosco31100 aren't weeping angels quantum locked when /anyone/ is looking at them? So the three of them could just take turns watching the Angel, and as long as all three didn't blink or look away at the same time, and they keep the lights on, they're good?
@@natbarmore I wasn't talking about weeping angles. I'm talking about how the Doctor drags Dan across the room and gets on one of the podium things along with him all in the space before Swarm can snap their fingers. (I meant last weeks cliffhanger, not this weeks, if that's where I've confused you.)
I really want to see a version of the Doctor's 'memory' sequences acted fully by Jo Martin and the characters who were with her incarnation at the time.
Also am I the only who finds it weird that the random Victorian guy has been in every episode? Seriously Chibnall, just leave him until it's his episode.
Agreed. I feel like once Jodie looked in the mirror we should have shifted to Jo Martin's perspective, and had Jodie appear as a glitch in time and her companions timelines.
But for Covid it’s better to keep the amount of actors down.
I’m wondering about the Victorian guy too. He’s like omnipresent but only in the tunnels
Not Victorian, he's from the Regency era. The Victorian era began in 1837.
@@mr.scarlo2234 who cares, I can't even remember the date it said and he just appears out of nowhere.
@@Jedi_Spartan if you're gonna whine, at least try to be accurate
4:55 There is now a behind the scenes video on the official DW channel titled "The Return of the Fugitive Doctor", in it Jody basically reveals that acting directions for 13th are to not to command the screen in the contrast to Fugitive.
The pacing of this episode felt off to me, dragging through scenes that don't add much and rushing through scenes that should be more important. It uses a surreal structure, but it doesn't do much with it. The angels scenes were too quick to build any suspense and I was also frustrated that they finally give a scene to the Fugitive Doctor but Jodie is the one who acts it (the switching between the two was jarring). And as bad as "The Wedding of River Song" is, at least it does show a temporal crisis in a comprehensive and visual manner, instead of having a villain monologuing it.
"dragging through scenes that don't add much and rushing through scenes that should be more important" That is exactly the way I felt. A blurb about the Weeping Angels, a blurb with the old woman telling the Doctor the Universe was going to end because the Doctor CAUSED the flux? That seemed really important but it was so brief it didn't even get noticed in the context of this review. Also, Bel wondering if he will look the same (how long have they been apart and is Vinder able to somehow regenerate???) I almost feel like they trying to be a bit to clever for their own good. Moffitt could pull that off sometimes, but I don't think Chibnall can
@@scpatl4now I'm genuinely afraid that Vinder and Bel are actually the Timeless Child's parents.
Gabriel Santos … oh jesus oh no I fear you’re right, it makes sense and it would definitely be something Chib would do. Oh god. Now it’s stuck in my brain.
Yeah i was glad they were getting ... visions, to develop where they were all emotionally sitting, but the doctor immidiately interupts them and they catch on pretty quickly. The whole thing felt like a plot device just to feel like somethings happening but we didnt learn about diane, yaz doesnt know these people (maybe she does after she gets hit by an angel, but no meaning yet) and its all there just to tease "the flux is because of you!" and defeat swarms ... finger click that did ... something ... by bringing more mouri by becoming one and ... there were 2, then 3, they brought four ... i dunno.
But yeah, not much actually gets established here because they seem to gloss over why it should matter in the effort to make it feel chaotic for the doctor.
I think this episode could of done better if we got each characters story in order not just scrambled up, like the doctor first and her story and then she gets out of it, then we go to Dan ,his story and then the doctor saves him ,then Yaz then vinder instead of it all mixed up. Maybe just before they leave the doctor gets one more flash back of her life then they all leave and then the ending with the weeping angle twist. Also bels story could still be scattered out in between the main characters stories but I think that would make a better structure
Actually that cliff hanger was necessary in this episode , cause Yaz tried to get rid of the angel by smashing the console , and 'the image of an angel becomes an angel itself ' definitely is canon so Yaz should not have been able to get rid of the angel . Which is exactly what happened , the angel just kinda sorta went into her phone .
'the image of an angel becomes an angel itself '
I always disliked that aspect. They were a creepy, cool, scary villain who killed you in an interesting way, but was also rather sad because it could never see another of even it's own kind. Then any picture could become one and suddenly they were just indestructible magic that had no rules, and could do whatever the writer wanted.
“The image of an angel becomes an angel itself” is canon but it’s also been largely ignored by canon luckily, otherwise every single picture of the Statue of Liberty would be an angel. God I really dislike that aspect.
@@lilithhedwig5408 I'm not sure , was the statue of liberty always an angel or did it just become one when the angels overran New York with their 'temporal energy' ?
@@Here_is_Waldo Yeah , i get your point , when it comes to doctor who the rules are just so infrequently adhered to that in the end we can remember the ones we want to and just forget about the rest ....
I think this is an example of what happens when a 10 episode Season is reduced to 6. War of the Sontarans is my favourite thus far and i am intrigued to the mysteries being threaded in the series. I wish the Companions had been given more emotional stories in their timelines because that could be really interesting to learn of our characters on a deeper level. I hope the cliffhanger isn't resolved immediately like the last one. I adored seeing Jo Martin!
I feel like all of this should’ve been spread across the three series. All the timeless child stuff should’ve been series 11, the flux should’ve been series 12, and Swarm and the aftermath of the flux should’ve been series 13.
@@bakasta5992 True. Season 11 seems completly wasted and void of any major development. They could have spread the big bad evil story arc over three seasons.
Just watch, they're going to resolve the cliffhanger by smashing the phone.
I kinda hope Williamson actually never gets explained. Just keeps showing up, past Flux, in every new episode of Dr Who for the rest of time.
😂😂
Yeah, I get what you mean. Some people think we might get an answer for his character in Chapter Five due to Kevin McNally wearing Regency era clothing.
“At least you didn’t dream about that guy with the cheese.”
So is anyone going to talk about the old woman who appeared near the end in the Doctor's time stream that stated it was the Doctor who was causing the flux and that this Universe would be destroyed. I kinda saw that as a big deal
It's the White Guardian. Just watch, that'll play out.
I think the problem with bringing in Jo for these well, extended cameos (let's be honest), is it leaves us wanting that. It's a bit like Chibs is walking with us through the grocery story and we see Jo's Doctor on display and we say 'Mr. Chibnal can we Jo Doctor?' and Chibs says 'We have Jo Doctor at home'....and we get home and it's Jodie....which is you know....not Jo Martin....
This episode really puts the timey-wimey into timey-wimey.
Doctor Who has always been about world building. Whenever the Doctor visits a new timeline or planet, you get introduced to new characters (The locals) to help you understand the time and the world, they're like tour guides for the adventure.
Something tells me Vinder and that lady may end up being the doctors parents somehow.
I do find it amusing John Bishop has managed to completely sell who Dan is as character more than anyone else from the Fam ever did.
14 years after Blink started the meme, an Angel finally DOES have the phone box! 😂
Here I was hoping an Angel would be a companion. Instead we just get another human from modern England.
I was wondering about this last night. The Angels are conscious. Theoretically, they don't have to send someone back in time with a touch. What if there are Angels that are not malicious, well as long as they're not hungry, and could ally themselves with other species? Intriguing question.
@@chrisandersen5635 Only if everyone was wearing blindfolds lol. Yup, allying yourself with Angels could work, if they're fed enough. Angels are incredibly fast and incredibly strong. You could also EASILY make an army of angels with just a few mirrors.
Angels: "what do you have to offer"
Ally: "i can rotate you if you ever get stuck staring at someone"
@@chrisandersen5635 I do not remember very clearly, but I think there was an episode in BF, on Doom Coalition I suppose, where Angels allied with some timelord against other timelords.
So much of Chibnalls DW writing comes across as kindergarten-esque, i mean i only have a cursory interest in physics but i do know that time isn't some elusive thing, we understand it pretty well, there isnt even an individual thing called time, physicists figured it out ages ago that space/time are like, the same thing, or at the very least they are so connected you cannot separate them. Sure, the average viewer isnt going to pick up on smaller things like that, but im sure im not the only one who did, it feels like Chibnall is writing episodes for the original run of Doctor Who, not modern Who
Did anyone else think that Jodie Whittaker as the Police Officer was the best performance she's given in the entire show? As soon as she went back to the Doctor she felt like she was acting but as just a normal police officer she felt like she actually inhabited the role.
Bel's Story started as a cool new way to start a story, same as hearing the Doctor's narration, this is DW like we've never seen it before! I really have no reason to care about Bel, since we don't know who she is till the end, but at least seeing her take out a Cyber Squad is a little more believable than senior citizens taking out a squad of Sontarans with a wok. At first I though Tigimi was an AI, but now I'm thinking it's a device that communicates with her unborn child? REALLY hope they don't pull some Timey Wimey BS to reveal the kid is the Doctor, and Vinder and Bel are her parents...
"REALLY hope they don't pull some Timey Wimey BS to reveal the kid is the Doctor, and Vinder and Bel are her parents..." -- from the moment the episode revealed that Bel was pregnant and that Vinder was the father my thought was that they are going to turn out to be the Doctor's real parents.
I had not thought of that. I hope not too.
I hope they don't go that route. If they do, the Doctor endlessly regenerating will make no sense.
I think Bel was the only part of this episode that I liked. It never occurred to me that her child could be the doctor. I wouldn't have a problem with that, partly because it would mean the timeless child storyline will be quickly resolved.
@@ract46 I had the same thought. I don't think they would have introduced her pregnancy just to give Vinder more of backstory. I mean, unless the child serves some purpose in the greater narrative his entire character is pointless. However, if the unborn child turns out to be the timeless child, fine. If it turns out to be the Doctor, good lord, I do not want to be on the internet after that.
My review of the episode
“Do you guys just put the word time in front of everything?”
Was there any reason given as to why Yas and Vinder's timeline goofery had the others projected over existing people from their memories, while Dan just got the doctor floating awkwardly and exposition dumping on him from time to time?
Nnnnope. No reason at all, guess they just didn't want to hire more actors...
Personal connection?
I think Vinder or Bel are her kids ie Susan’s parents
@@ceezyjeffezy2213 oh God, its Rey all over again!🥴
I wish I could be in the writers room as they came up with this. I just want to know the general discussions and who thought this (as a final product) was a good idea. The dialogue in this episode felt like a student struggling to meet the minimum word count. How are people letting this through????
I wasn’t even aware the term “gamer girl” existed. Does that mean I’m a “gamer guy”? If not then it’s an odd term that just draws attention to girls or women that just happen to play video games.
Why can't we have a gamer that just so happens to be male, female, non-binary, trans, fluid and other genders?
I am still not a big fan of the "Timeless Child" twist since I feel it retcons too much of the series' continuity and the Doctor as a character. If they had just gone the route of The Doctor lived an entire regeneration cycle that they chose to forget about (like how Capaldi forgot Clara) I think that would have worked fine, but I feel the route they went goes against too much of the established Time Lord lore/history of Gallifrey. Plus, before this twist The Doctor was just an average Time Lord who was interested in Earth/loved exploring the universe while the rest of the Time Lords looked down on other forms of life and chose to isolate themselves, but if Time Lord society as we know it only exists because of The Timeless Child then The Doctor would have been more respected and been aware of their significance. So, I blame this idea solely on Chibnall since I feel this twist wouldn't have worked regardless of who was The Doctor, but I do like Whitaker as The Doctor.
Do you think the Fugitive Doctor would work as a Season 7B-style retcon?
AMEN. One Regen cycle would have been much more... digestible? And do the exact same story beats they're doing here. The Timeless Child thing just seems like.. "Welp, the Doctor's immortal with infinite lives. She's unique and more awesome then everyone and those are the facts forever."
People have the theory of Vinder and Bel being the doctors true parents and where the doctor was found as a kid is a gateway to Time
Yeah, there’s this thing in fiction which people refer to as ‘double mumbo jumbo’. The Doctor being a renegade time-lord who escaped the banality of their people to explore time and space is the original mumbo jumbo, and has always been real backbone of the show. The Doctor ALSO being a random unknown entity who could mysteriously regenerate and knows very little about themselves or their past is double mumbo jumbo. It just doesn’t work. As a classic and new who fan of 40 years, I fucking hate it. Burdening the first female Doctor with this tripe is also a dick move. I really hope it gets retconned very quickly.
@@HamishsRobot The Doctor was originally an alien cut off from his home planet. regeneration came three years later (but not named until 1974 along with the planets name), the reveal of the god like Time Lords came 6 years later. Omega in 1973, the Morbius faces in 1975 and Rassilon, the Time Lord chapters and the regeneration cycle in 1976. So at what point does this become mumbo jumbo or seen as on going development of the Doctor, his background and his people?
Bel and Vinder's baby is the timeless child, that's my guess. Because Chibnall.
Maybe I'm not reading it through the same lens (which is often the case) but I just thought that Yaz's sister was attempting to pretend to be a gamer girl through her own misguided belief that this would make some guy like her. It gave me flashbacks to when I was younger and tried different things in the moronic belief that girls would like me for it. Anyway, I'm completely enjoying the new series. And I'm waiting for the old woman who talked to The Doctor to wind up being the White Guardian.
Once again, Chibnall is expecting us to not get the general gist from subtle hints --- just like Orphan 55. During the division stuff, we see Karvanister, but with a 'Dan' filter -- called a Dog, the Weapon, yet they HAD to superimpose him over it because apparently it wasn't clear.
3 things that bothered me in this episode are:
1 - The Flux in the first episode seemed to disintegrate everything it touched, just like Swarm and Azure do. But now we still have planets and stuff. The aftermath of the Flux in Vinder's planet looks much more like the aftermath of a war, with ruined buildings and stuff.
2 - How the hell did those normal people survive the Flux? Again, in first episode it was a giant cloud that could engulf entire planets and leave no survivors behind. And yet, not only the Cybermen and Daleks survive, but Vinder's wife and we also see some people that get erased by the time fireflies thingy. Also, even though the Doctor had her memories erased, how the hell does she not know about the Flux since it is such a well known and documented phenomena? The Daleks, Cybermen and Sontaran knew about it and Belle calls it "the Flux", implying that she either knows what it is, or interrogated someone who knew.
3 - Half way through the season and Chibnall is still introducing new mysteries. Who the hell was that old lady that the Doctor encounters? She says that the time damage was intended and that the Ravagers were useful and were reintroduced. She also says the Flux came for the Doctor for some reason and that it was time for this universe to end. She was also able to notice the Doctor traveling on the timelines and fish her out of it and seemed to be intimately familiar with the Doctor. This much knowledge and power implies to me that she is some higher form of existance. Maybe someome from the Doctor's original species.
Pretty sure thats vinders kid
It's honestly gratifying to hear the things I thought while watching articulated so succinctly
I watched this video
I still hope they retcon the timeless child so that it was Susan the whole time. The doctor finds out how the timelords are using her and adopts her and runs away. Then after they part in Hartnells era she regenerates and gets a TARDIS and goes on new adventures
Wouldn’t THAT be a twist! But I feel like having Susan in New Who without precedent will be not well received.
It would actually explain why she was suddenly unceremoniously dumped in a post-apocalyptic future in Dalek Invasion of Earth too, since The Doctor needed to hide her in a point in history away from the Time Lords!
Ok, I could buy that.
I still think the timeless child should be the Master, and they just lied about it to f with the Doctor.
If nothing else I really like how this series is putting 13 through the wringer. It really shows her versatility.
I thought the episode was very boring, to be honest. It's weird the FLUX could destroy big planets in the first episode... but still there are planets and people in this post apocalypse time.
Yeah I noticed that wtf 🤨
"We're just kitchen-sinking it at this point" Great summary.
Could you possibly explain the saying? I'm not American I've never heard that before
@@stephjovi I imagine "kitchen-sinking" is tantamount to including everything and the kitchen sink, while a kitchen-sink drama revolves around day to day domesticity. British soap operas being a prime example of the form. Doctor Who certainly isn't the latter.
@@stephjovi "Everything but the kitchen sink" is a phrase that indicates that someone threw everything imaginable into the mix.
@@eshbena interessierting. Thank you!
Yeah I can see the confusion- Yes kitchen sink dramas do refer to soaps but in this instance it refers to the phrase "Everything but the kitchen sink" ie throwing it all in there.
I thought it would've been cool if we could've seen some more moments in the Doctor's timeline, just seeing a few of the iconic moments through that lense would've been fun.
Since the others seemed to be jumping around their lives a lot more while the Doctor was basically confined to that one event
Ngl, I would have loved to have seen Whittaker in situations from past Doctor Who. Even though that would likely ruin the story.
Best episode of the season so far, only criticism I’ve seen is “It’s hard to follow”, but as Doctor Who fans we are or should be entirely used to Timey Wimey shenanigans, I found it incredibly easy to follow.
Completely agree with everything you said
I didn't find it hard to follow but a waste of time. I wanted to only focus on the doctors timeline and not on the other timelines
I completely agree! I loved this episode, heck, I love this whole series! Maybe I'm biased because it's the first time that i can watch it live as it airs but still - I think it's easily the best of the Chibnall era and the 13th Doctor so far!
It wasn't hard to follow. It was messy and unstructured.
@@GamerWho I don't think it was unstructured just because it had four flashbacks telling this story. It was similar to Fragments from Torchwood (ehich Chibnall also wrote by the way) but here each person's flashbacks was intercut with the others but they all lead to a conclusion and were either setting up stuff or revealing more about each characters, sometimes both.
I feel like something that everyone's missing is the naming of things. Atropos is a Greek mythological goddess and mother to the fates, otherwise known as the Moirai. The three Fates presided over, shocker, fate and destiny. I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to presume that the planet "Time" is actually, in reality, a previous version of Gallifrey and that the "Time Lord" is incredibly literal in that they are Lords (as in they own land) of Time (the land.) Either way, this episode was a mess for me. Like episode 1, this sort of just feels like a bunch of "bad wolves" thrown together - they're clues to several mystery boxes packed into one big mystery box and I just... I can't really stand it. I wouldn't necessarily call this episode better than the first but I'll say so anyway just because it had more Jacob Anderson and I like him as an actor. I agree with a lot of what you said, all in all. Just thought I'd add a little something and see if it sticks.
Edit: it's worth mentioning that "Atropos" themselves, specifically, means "unalterable" or "inflexible." So... There's that. I also made a mistake in that she isn't the mother of the Moirai but one of the three Moirai herself. Apologies.
The mysterious lady was moving her hands like she was weaving too, it's all tied back into the fates. Mauri (however it's spelt) is clearly Moirai too.
Honestly, when I saw the Weeping Angel in the time storm, I kinda wanted to see the Doctor try to team up with it. They're sentient, if the universe is falling apart one could maybe be reasoned with, at least temporarily. And it would make for a neat, tense partnership where I think 13 could really shine
Honestly I spent half this episode thinking about how disorienting this episode could be for casual viewers, but after you mentioned just how much exposition there is here I do wonder if maybe Chibnall was too worried he'd lose the audience (especially as his era hasn't been heavily mindfucky or full of timey wimey puzzles) and decided to implement this concept whilst also having the Doctor dump some exposition to explain to the characters and audience in case.
I do like this episode myself, I think whilst it balances quite a lot, it is kinda meant to be for each character (whereas episode 1 was a lot for the sake of introductions that I don't really think needed to all be there, or at least needed more exploration). My main issue that I have with this episode is the runtime is just a little too short to explore these separate timelines for each character properly. From memory, we basically got a couple sequences with Dan but only learned little bits about his past, quite a few with Vinder which I think was the best done as well as a couple for Yaz but they didn't really bring us much. I think showing us Dan being lost, being confused about if everything prior to that moment was imagined or not, and both Vinder and Yaz (moreso Yaz) work out the situations with Yaz trying to work out how to get out of it would really show the influence time with the Doctor has had on Yaz, plus her seeing everyone as the Doctor could play into her adoration of the Doctor too and could show her being torn between home life and the Doctor.
I think this episode has a lot of interesting ideas, but some of the execution just wasn't what I think it could've been, when I think this could be a really good opportunity to really explore and present us with each character and how they're coping in the same situation on their own: Dan with uncertainty, Vinder understanding but also following along, Yaz trying to work out a way out and the Doctor trying to understand her past and figure out a solution to this situation. I think it gave us some of those elements and did okay, but I think having only a couple scenes with Yaz, each just kinda bringing an angel into it, wasn't enough. It didn't really show us Yaz enough, and the threat of an angel taking Yaz was brought up but then swiftly moved on from (although admittedly there's next episode which could continue that setup). Again, I do like this episode but it's a little lacking in areas I was really hopeful for (also I wish Jo became the predominant Doctor on screen with Jodie flashing in once we saw her in the mirror, just to give her more screentime and presence, I love Jo so much)
I love Vinder - mostly just because I love Jacob Anderson, but it's still fun to see someone break the companion template.
Yes, Jo Martin's really got a presence! Even though it was almost just a cameo.
I feel bad for Jodie, too. All that info dump, and her confusion could be so much more, less of "who am I", more of "what happened, what did they do to me and who did it" at least. And she's had to do that "sniping at Yaz" thing for the third episode now, basically in the same way again and again.
I absolutely agree about Vinder and Dan being thrown in so Chibnall doesn't have to deepen the Doctor-Yaz relationship. That, and demographics, to put it nicely...
They've been teasing the TC stuff for so long now, and however much we like it, it's time to start delivering whatever payoff they have in mind. Start pulling everything together. And you're right, the Flux doesn't feel all that interesting in itself. Btw., why didn't it "eat" Vinder's planet? Why didn't we learn the planet's name? And what does this space vs time thing really mean, if anything? How long does that pregnancy last, or is it a timey-wimey thing? Will the child be Very Special, maybe even Timeless? (I hope not.)
I suspect the next episde will be enjoyable for its own sake, but give us little progress for the overarching plot. Like episode 2. Well, we got all the time in the world, I guess...
My thought was that the Angels are able to move so fast by disconnecting from time in the first place, and this is intended to tie in.
My dad wonders if the Angels are trying to help in some way.
Did anyone else feel the editing was a little off? Like the resolution to the cliffhanger was very choppy and messy and was the Doctor supposed to be moving at Super speed or something cause she did a lot in that 1 second. Mentally I could understand but to physically move herself and Dan around the room into exact positions in less than a second feels like the cliffhanger wasn’t thought through.
But yeah, the editing. I know I’m probably over focusing, but there’s one scene stuck in my head which is when Yaz is in the police car and she looks back at the angel that has disappeared. And then the next shot she’s looking forward, whereas we would normally have her turning her head back around. I know it’s a bit pick but it did break my immersion and after that I never really got back into the story which was a shame.
I've seen it suggested that some of the editing and flow jank may have been due to having to shoot around COVID restrictions and how they were even allowed to film. Which I don't think is confirmed, but it would make sense.
What is it with this show and shortchanging the menace of alien threats?! Just when the Ravagers were really impressing all of us with how scary they were, the flashback reveals that they can be easily defeated with the same weaopn that caged Dan in the first ep, which we have no reason to think is a unique one, it looks like it's quite the common tool! Also, are we meant to think that that's really Karvanista?? How old is he, then and why doesn't he recognize the name "Doctor"?
I'm probably reaching here, but I'm thinking that Flux has a double meaning. Yes, it's a thing that's destroying the universe, but 'in flux' also means constantly changes. I think we can describe that this is what is happening with time - it's in flux. It's kinda totally messed up. Especially in this episode. The Sontarans took advantage of The Flux and basically changed history or attempted to interfere with it. Then the team (and Vinder) got thrown into their own timestreams (and for some reason, Yaz glitched into Vinder's as well, which is confusing) and The Weeping Angels take people out of their own time and next week's episode looks like it is based in the past. And then there's that Williamson dude who is both out of his time, but also seems comfortable with aliens and whatever is going on with him. So, I think Flux does kind of make enough sense to be the title, if we take it with this double meaning in mind. I hope I'm making sense
I was confused by parts of this episode, but also, for me, it helped in a weird way to connect with the characters' own confusion. I did enjoy it despite all that. I instantly liked Bel's story, I hope we see more of her. This episode had me on the edge of my seat, but I do have to watch it again. I'm at the stage where I'm putting my trust into that it will all come together by the end of chapter 6, unless they're planning on stretching some of the plot into the specials.
Regarding the blue fireflies. They had a similar creature in the X-Files episode "Darkness Falls". And they were realized with a MUCH better effect in that episode...and that was 27 YEARS AGO. The blue sparks do not affect the environment. Their illumination doesn't reflect off of anything. They are just pasted in.
It hit me with this episode. Whitakers doctor never actively seeks anything. She discovers the flux because it just comes up. She discovers Swarm because he actively escapes and contacts her. She discovers ... old lady ... because she jumps in just to save yaz and suddenly realises she has a chance. She doesnt even seem to think about it, and then she suddenly goes "WHY WONT ANYONE TELL ME." Which is a great moment where whitaker gets to let loose but halfway through, everything feels contrived. The flux just happens, the dog guy just shows up whenever dan is in danger, the doctor instinctively jumps into the time stream but was only there because yaz coincidentally ended up there the same time swarm did and swarm PLANNED for her to sacrifice herself AND dan???
Im glad the plot is developing, but its at the expense of everything else. And like you said, "we dont have time for whitaker to actively seek answers to the main plot because we have more characters". Why is Bel and Vinder given an active EMOTIONALLY DRIVEN quest, while whitaker is stumbling upon a nugget of info once per episode and then going "dont worry dan, we totally want to know these things. The flux and division are totslly the A plot."
We're in the same problem in s12, where whitaker stumbles across "oh, the master destroyed gallifrey..im ssd and i'll deal with that later. Oh theres another doctor, i guess i'll deal with that in the finale. Oh, i'm the thing we mentioned in that one episode in s11, i guess that doesnt matter, no actually im really upset about it but look daleks, oh look the flux i hope that somehow links to the thing that i supposedly care about - oh look sontarens, sorry timeless child thing, im busy."
Filler episodes wouldnt be an issue usually, but this is meant to be 6 eps of one single story.
And the filler that usually goes into 10 episodes is being spread across 6, which is bogging it down. Meanwhile, thr Overall Arc is being confused for 'withholding information until the finale reveals it' and the finale explaining it will confuse a payoff for a reveal; a reveal is nothing without the consequences that follow, the answer isnt itself an arc, cause thats why s12 gave the sense of "now we need another season to follw througb on this". Its stalling the premise rather than developing it.
Theres a way to interweave multiple plots, but this isnt it. They all need to be a direct consequence or splinter out from the actions the doctor takes to slowly understand her past ... but shes not understandjng it, she's not acting on it, and everything else is getting more time despite having no link to it yet. On first watch, everytime they cut to Bel i was like 'theres no transition to this' and the second time i was like 'oh right, who cares, tell this story another time" and if like a friend suggested, the baby is the timeless child ... then reveal that. What is this habit of stalling reveals until the finale, like reveals and plot information are the only element of storytelling... wheres the heart.
I am confused and worried about the rest of the series. we only have 3 episode left and more questions and no answers. I honestly was more optimistic about this series because I felt serialized storytelling would suit Chibnall more but I am just utterly bewildered.
With them making a point that the timelines they were put into were their past and future - with Yaz not having experienced hers yet - I'm really hoping there'll be a twist where the Fugitive Doctor and the Ravagers are enemies from the Doctor's future, not past. The Timeless Child being the reason she can't remember could be a red herring and it's actually a River Song scenario.
Probably won't happen though, think I'm just not ready to give up hope for Jo Martin being the next doctor
Also - calling it now. The old woman is the Black Guardian, guardian of Time. And the White guardian is the Guardian of Space ^.^
The couple ..doctors parents?? The sky at the end when the dropped him off was all purple like the flashback of timeless child.
Angles are not the protagonist they are gonna team up with the doctor
I'm starting to think this is a bait and switch. I think their going with the 6B theory, which has been suggested before. The fugitive doctor is between regeneration 2 and 3, which explains the police box, and the timeless child will end up being the master.
Moirae and Atropos isn't *exactly* Chibnall shitty naming, they're mythology names. Greek specifically, iirc, possibly Roman I forget
The Moirae sisters are three beings who work with the thread of fate yada-yada, one of them is Atropos, who is the eldest and the one who cuts the thread of fate, signifying an end of life
The other sisters are Clotho and Lachesis, who spin and measure the threads respectively
Honestly, I object to people saying the 'time particle' effects are like the old days, the effects for the Helix in The Masque of Mandragora were markedly better than this...
I thought the CGI Daleks looked absolutely abominable lol
I've heard Chibnall's tell don't show writing style described as 'Visual Big Finish' and I feel that basically sums it up.
The dialogue in this episode was just so cringe. I was cringing for the majority of the runtime. In specific, anything that the Ravagers said ("The Mouri must not be allowed back in. They are banished! Time is not their prisoner!" really?) and Vinder's little speech about protecting the constitution had me feeling bad for the actors...
I got the feeling that the particles were more like the role of the creatures in Series 1's "Fathers day". Taking out things that don't belong.
I think this episode would be much better if it was about the charecters trapped in this timestream, and slowly realising it isn't real then trying to break out. Kind of like an extended version of the bits in Zygon Inversion where Clara is in the dream world of her flat.
That could have worked.
I liked it. I really enjoyed the appearance of The Ruth Doctor and I absolutely loved the line: “Who are you, and why are you in my reflection?” That felt like a very Doctor thing to say in this scenario. The crazy time hopping was a bit confusing, but I think I managed to muddle through and got it by the end. I also really liked the appearances of the Daleks and Cybermen. Still waiting on what the Flux exactly is or even why it’s that important considering most of these things involved haven’t really been all that connected to it or explained it, but, let’s hope it all comes around by Episode Six.
This is the episode that put my kids off watching any more of this season - to the point where one said "nah, I'll wait until Chibnall's gone and RTD's back in charge" when I asked if he wanted to watch _Village of the Angels_
Again, a lot more of Chibnall wanking himself and calling it a script. Now, not only is the Doctor the most important figure in all Time Lord/Gallifreyan history, this whole universe-threatening thing is entirely because someone's pissed off with the Doctor - and I thought Moffat's "Lonely God" rubbish was OTT!
It's weird how some aspects of the plot, like the Doctor being drawn into different time streams are over-explained, but the main threat and what's at stake with the Flux and time going wrong aren't that well defined
I mean, we're moving past the setup.
You didn t talk about the woman that pulled the doctor before she got out the time stream
And how she is the woman covering her eyes in that one episode from tennant the master donna and her grandfather, and how now we certainly know she is not the doctor's mother
Um... because there's no evidence that it is her. Different actress (and the original actress is still alive and working, I checked).
@@CouncilofGeeks hmm, sorry i thought it was the same actress, my mistake, they look alike
1. it’s called once upon time, like in one upon time itself....
Chibnall didn’t create the name Moirae, it’s taken from myth. The Moirae are The Fates from Greek mythology, one of whom was named Atropos. She was the one who cut the threads.
I really hope the Mouri in DW are taken from the Greek mythology :D I love that idea, greek mythology is so intriguing.
Atropos means inflexible btw. Opposite of the Flux?
I thought the ep was called, “Once, upon Time”, (without the “a”) as in the planet Time? I need to rewatch it, a lot was going on! I did love to see the Fugitive Doctor back. I really wish she would become the next Doctor for good. Such great presence.
I understood during the episode those blue swarm creatures operated similarly to the monsters of Fathers Day, obliterating anything that opposed canon time, however running completely rampant due to the destruction of time's ordinary flow post-flux. The companions were pushed into and kept in their own timelines via the Doctor's meddling in an attempt to camoflauge them from these swarms. I may also be entirely incorrect in my memory of their exploration.
With that said, if this is the case and the exploration of unhinged time continues, the swarm creatures may reappear and have a larger impact in the future of the Flux story.
Martin is a good actress, and depending on how they explain it, could easily have her own show.
I would say a comic book mini-series, at best in a few years.
It’s not ‘upon a time’ it’s ‘upon Time’ - Time being the name of a planet.
Yeah I know, check the video description.
@@CouncilofGeeks Yes, I know that, but in your discussion you pondered why the title ‘Once upon a time’ had never been used until now, but it’s not the same as ‘Once, upon Time’. In any case, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
After the first ep aired, I was discussing it online, and a friend said, and i quote:
"GOOD LORD did the writer’s room play mad libs with old themes or something? WTaF?"
.... I'm pretty sure she's spot on and that is what happened...
Honestly I feel the whole things is messy as, but I will watch the whole thing and see if my mind is changed by the end..
I do like the Fugitive Doctor, I will say that with certainty.
btw. Cool content. Recently found ya. Subscribed.
Bel, Vinder and the alternate Doctor (YAY) were high points of this for me. I agree that the Doctor going to all the timelines was intrusive, and I also wish each had an interesting story with it, like Vinder. The rest were average days in an average life, and boring. Both the swirly time stuff and Bel's emoji companion seem lifted from "Smile" in series 10. The emoji companion could have been the next evolution of the sentient AI life as was discovered in that ep; which would be really cool. The swirly time stuff just seemed like a direct rip off. And I didn't think any of the time vortex special effects were great. As my kid passing through the living room noted, they looked like people in a video game. I'm sure Chibnall's trying to be more like classic in feel, but we're not in the seventies anymore. The episodic venture is an interesting one that could actually work, but Davies made the changes he did to the pace and structure for good reason. If Chibnall had been the one to bring it back, I think the show would have folded after a season.
I think this episode could of done better if we got each characters story in order not just scrambled up, like the doctor first and her story and then she gets out of it, then we go to Dan ,his story and then the doctor saves him ,then Yaz then vinder instead of it all mixed up. Maybe just before they leave the doctor gets one more flash back of her life then they all leave and then the ending with the weeping angle twist. Also bels story could still be scattered out in between the main characters stories but I think that would make a better structure
6:00 YES!!! SHE LITERALLY WENT THROUGH THIS ARC TWICE ALREADY!!! IN BACK-TO-BACK EPISODES!!!
10:00 no no, that was really awkward, it's just that i've come to expect awkward, clunky, out-of-date boomer dialogue these days
13:11 oh my god, i forgot that the flux has only been in a Single episode out of the first half of the series. what the hell lmao
I'm enjoying it so far, in spite of its flaws, but it feels to me like they're just trying to cram too much into each episode. I'm thinking maybe a couple more episodes or slightly longer episodes might've worked better. One thing I noticed is that episode 2 (which is my favourite, so far) is 10 minutes longer than episodes 1 and 3.
It's become clear to me from the discourse that the balance you say would have worked for you in this story would not have worked for the majority of people watching. There were plenty of people who said they were confused by what went on. I agree with you that there was TOO MUCH exposition and I wish we got to see that '30-40% less explaining' version you describe, but not everyone likes an "uncomfortable watch." Unfortunately, I think it was an idea that was walking a tightrope and just wasn't going to work really well for most of the audience.
I’m know ‘what’ happened, I don’t know “why” it happened
This episode was a mess. I was constantly asking myself out loud, "What the fuck is going on here?" The good bits were quite good, like getting more Fugitive Doctor and finding out more about the Ravagers and how they knew The Doctor already. The initial jumping between Dan's and Yas's memories had good bits. I liked Dan and Diane's walk and talk quite a bit, and I liked Dan's reactions to everything when he recognizes that it's all off and not really real. And I liked how Bel's story connected to everything in the end in an emotionally resonant way. But the rest? Meh and ugh and wtf.
The entire concept of time and space being at odds and at war and that time has to be held in check and controlled is dumb. Time unraveling and running amok can be good but they're making time out to be some type of fundamentally destructive force. And that all makes no sense. The random old lady, billed as Awsok or something, coming out of nowhere, telling the Doctor she caused the Flux and the universe needs to die and it's all the Doctor's fault was stuffed into this episode needlessly. That character's introduction could easily have been saved for another episode where it wouldn't feel so random and out of place and only adding to confusion. Also, I'm very confused about The Division now because it was introduced very much as a Time Lord agency, but apparently Karvanista is not only in it currently but was also in it at the same time as The Doctor and took part in the same mission that stopped the Ravagers previously? How the fuck old is Karvanista then? None of any of that makes sense, and even if it gets resolved reasonably in the end that won't change the fact that all the introduction and setup was less an intriguing mystery and more a disjointed cluster fuck of ideas.
Karvenista they presumably got via time travel. Time lords have worked with non-gallifreyans before Tbf e.g. Ace and Leela.
i think cutting out the initial explanation of the time storm or at least moving it towards the ends of the episode would have made it a lot better. i can't remember which episode, but i know they've done it before where the time/setting keeps changing abruptly. i also think the doctor's confusion would have been sold much better if the audience didn't know what was going on. as in the time storm was messing with the doctor's head too.
i agree that it didn't seem like the doctor was actually being affected by the time storm, and i wonder what that could have looked like when well done. maybe something along the lines of "russian doll"
i'm really disappointed we won't get to see jodie under RTD.
Is it bad that I prefer Bel and Vinda to Yas and Dan 😬
I was so excited that we finally got Jo Martin back, only for Jodie to still play her.
Why?????????
I watched it with friends and none of us had a clue what was going on (we are both classic and NuWho fans) loved Jo Martin turning up… I follow her on Instagram & that was a very well kept secret! I liked how the weeping angel got the tardis - it reminded me of the line in blink (which I freakin’ LOVE!) For me, it just felt messy last night!
Same. My dad and I have been fans for a long time, and I've never been so confused at a Doctor Who episode. My dad fell asleep, and we both did last week.
We saw the Doctors past when she was working for the Division. What was not understood? Everything to understand the episode, is in the episode.
The behaviour of the blue particles reminded me of the reapers from "fathers day" - which were actually described as being like bacteria feeding on wounds in time.
The Fathers' day Reapers at least would have been better than the blue particles and given everyone a familiar nostalgic vibe!
And yet, I've read a lot of comments saying it "was too confusing". Those of us who can follow this sort of thing, often forget that other people can't always figure it all out. All in all, I really enjoyed the episode. I do wonder where this Chibnall has been the last two seasons. :P
I think it’s because he’s more used to having a lot of time to develop his stories. Broadchurch was a serialised drama, and (in my opinion his best work on Who prior to his era) the Silurian two-parter from Series 5 was, well, a two parter. He has a lot of ideas to insert into his scripts, especially once you give him the reigns to a show which can literally do anything, and he settles for just putting them all in, I think the most egregious example being Can Your Hear Me. I think his best work is when he’s limited, going to Torchwood, I’m actually someone who defends Cyberwoman. As a script, mind you, but the only major criticism I have of that is the costume, which I’m not sure he had much to do with. I like his stories, but I think he often suits either doing these longer narratives, or having someone to tell him ‘No’.
"Those of us who can follow this sort of thing, often forget that other people can't always figure it all out"
The question for me when I encounter that is 'why should I care?' TBH, I often wonder if people have watched the same programme as I have, but I also tend to fine that the answer is 'they didn't, because they're too busy composing the post to tell us how confused they are, rather than, y'know, letting it play out.'
Great video as always. One correction though. The title is “Once, Upon Time” not “Once Upon A Time” 🤔🥰
I thought the retcon would be easy. Something something master something something all a dream. Now I feel the whole show is being destroyed out of spite. The angels, the doctor, the past, the lore of time etc.
I honestly have no idea what happened in this episode. Just some magic, some exposition, another new character who steals the show and loads of appearances for no reason.
This episode seems to have been a sort of wake up call/trigger for people to realise that the Doctor has been treating Yaz a bit poorly. Mainly because of the contrast of how well she seems to be treating Vinder and Dan, and then we get her basically snapping at Yaz, and seeing those side by side. And seeing the Doctor treat Yaz so poorly is just not nice to watch.
The Doctor literally said to Dan "You don't know what we're dealing with, I do" while he was worrying about his friend.
Also, The Doctor seems to snap at Yaz whenever she asks her questions about her. Which fits with this Doctor being very secretive. So I really like it, it adds more dimensions to Thirteen, who seemed like a very happy-go-lucky Doctor at the start.
@Tom Meehan In classic sure. I remember one Doctor left a sour taste that lasted their entire run because of how badly they treated their companion in their first episode. But it is new for New Who, so people who haven't seen classic are getting upset about it now. Even Capaldi may have been a bit care free with the lives of episodic characters but he always tried to treat Clara well.
It just isn't to my liking either. At the very least it would be more acceptable if Yaz actually bit back about the Doctor getting shouty at her, but she doesn't. Yaz just stands there and takes it. I hope this builds to something. If it doesn't get addressed at some point in the season I'm going to get very angry over it I think.
Maybe she will push Yaz too far and she will team up with the Master 😮 I'm sure he offered last season 👍
@@TheShadowofDragons Treat Clara well? Like when he dumped her in the middle of a decision whether or not to blow up the moon? Or all the other times he treated Clara badly? XD
to be fair, yaz is the one asking all the "nosy" questions. vinder and dan aren't.
This one I wasn't sure about at first but it ended up growing on me by the end. I certainly like it better than episode one, as this one actually manages to have its own plot that ties into the serial stuff; and that plot does progress and get resolved at the end. So there's a lot more satisfaction to be had here than episode 1, and some cleverness to appreciate in the ways in which the episode plot and the series plot are interwoven.
Also like that they still seem to be making a deliberate effort to avoid the "sonic screwdriver formula" in these episodes (by which I mean, episodes structured like: stumble into the plot, determine what the plot is, wait until the last five minutes of the episode, then vaguely wave the sonic screwdriver at the plot and tell it to go away). It was nice to see this last week and it's nice to see it continue.
So, this episode's a slow-burner for sure... but the smoke smells pretty nice.
A good episode. I understood everything. It's complicated, but c'mon, it's Doctor Who, what do you expect? Also, great to see they're going to continue the Fugitive Doctor's story, which was something that intruiged me previous series. So far, my theory about her still holds up, so I'm curious to see if I'm right or not.
For me, convoluted fits better than complicated as so far I've also understood it. If I didn't, then I'd consider it complicated but that's me. I'm glad they're addressing the Fugitive Doctor too, although this episode goes against my hopeful theory and Chibnall seems to be doubling down on what he's stated previously. Not that I expected anything different and I don't think we'll get any definite answer to it until the specials.
I don't know what I think overall. I'm definitely intrigued but also feel he's chucking stuff in there unnecessarily. I mean usually we get 1 or 2 big bads a season and so far we've had 4 in 3 episodes. I guarantee the Master will appear before the end, probably the Judoon too. I'm not disappointed though, which can't be said about his first season, and it will all depend on the episodes to come.
What was your theory?
@@SnackBath That she is between Doctors 2 and 3. What is known is that after the War Games, the Second Doctor didn't immediately regenerate and worked for the timelords. However, what if he was done with it and stood up against them? They forced a new regeneration upon him that would do it in his place, until he was ready to regenerate.
@@timrob12 that would be cool since I don’t really like the timeless child thing, but I think chibnall probably wants to double down on that whole thing
@@SnackBath Not blaming him. Not a fan of retcon myself.
For me, this episode had a real "throw away 70s Doctor Who story" feel for me, with really cool concept pay offs at the end but a sort of bland story with "emotionally neutral stakes" up to that point. That said, there were some great character moments sprinkled in throughout, and I'm glad I got to see them.
I particularly liked how The Doctor was bossed around by that old Division lady, and then wound up bossing Yaz around in a very similar way later on. I do not know if this was intentional and if it will be developed further, but it would be interesting to see if there are any parallels drawn between how The Division bosses The Doctor around and how The Doctor bosses her companions around sometimes (exploring issues like, sometimes the person with the knowledge has to be bossy, and sometimes opinions of the person without the knowledge are surprisingly valuable, etc. etc.)
Anyhow, as bland as I thought this episode was, I did like episode two, and the preview of next week looks cool, so maybe I am just more personally attuned to what is going on in the even episodes.
I hope some other people out there are enjoying every episode, though!
People need to understand that there's a difference between the issue of complexity and the issue of cohorence. I've heard people say things like "this is real science fiction because it doesn't make sense right away." Sorry, but Moffat wrote that kind of story, not Chibnall.
At its core, this story is very simple, there's almost no plot at all, but it has been converted into a collision of different vignettes loosely edited together in a confusing way. This is not complexity; it's just bad editing. It's an illusion of complexity. So far, we've had three episodes, and there's absolutely no reason why everything that has been covered so far couldn't have been wrapped up in a single hour if it had just been organized in a comprehensible way.
I also don't understand why Chibnall makes the Doctor say her every thought out loud, and virtually none of them are anything particularly intelligent and sound like explaining to the audience. "Oh, no, I'm stuck in a Time Storm!" etc.
Some of it is visually intriguing and there's scattering of interesting ideas here, but like I said, they're a scattering. There's absolutely no focus. IMO these episodes are just textbook examples of bad screenwriting. I wish Jodie were staying on a few more seasons so maybe we could see if RTD would give her something better to work with, because I don't think she's gotten anything to sink her teeth into yet.
I started watching Doctor Who at age 8 in 1975. Seeing the VFX in this episode was such a touch of nostalgia, taking me all the way back to the dark days of low budget Who.
Any minute now we'll get a monster made of bubble wrap! It was oddly jarring that the vfx this week were so poor and in several places. Maybe the budget was blown on the glorious shots of the flux in episode 1?
Ever since their appearances past Angels Take Manhattan the Weeping Angela's appearances have been very hit or miss imo. Even within this very episode, they were horrifying up until the final scene which was just cheesy
Favorite episode so far, I was kinda baffled when I saw so many people saying they were lost? It really seemed pretty straight forward to me, but maybe I just missed the confusing parts or was more forgiving of them? Either way, I really enjoyed this one!
I think Gary from Nerdrotic is right...
All of these Loose Ends will be Tied up-- in the Last 5 minutes-- of the Last Episode.. xD
I have one question or lets say problem with Timeless Child storyline. (Well more than 1 but lets focus on this one right now) We know Doctor had a life before Harknell and Ruth Doctor was basically kind of a soldier for this organization. Somehow she regenerates at some point and when she arrives at Gallifrey the first time she is a small and rather helpless child. Did she lost her memories before being experimented then? And why did she only regenerated into kids and not any adults?
It was so weird, you see Jo Martin be the Doctor and you're like "Yes! Gimme more" and then it cuts back to Jodie, and then back to Jo, and then back to Jodie... and so on and so forth. Like c'mon, if you're gonna give me a Doctor who acutally really works then show them for longer! Please!
Is it me or is this Doctor Who: Flux giving off strong “War Games” vibes 🤔
I think the flux is still important, it was said to be a weapon of space against time, right? Space and time are at war, which is an interesting concept.
small question for you, have you seen the Evil dan memes? haha
The evil Dan memes are the only thing keeping me invested in flux
6:55 Clearly the Moirai like from Greek Mythology but everyone seems to be pronouncing it their own personal way.
EDIT: Except I guess they have a whole reserve of them in case replacements are needed. Probably good since it's a pretty important job.
Exactly, in the time stream there were three of them so they represented The Fates. Chibnall is clearly taking inspiration from Greek mythology.
I hate spending most of the time wondering what's going on, I want to get invested in the story.