Being able to use the same magazines and ammo for every man in the squad is a huge benefit, whether it’s assault, LMG,SPR all using same mags and ammunition is impressive.
Love the comments! I have 6.5 CM AR10 and bolt rifles, haven't them to the range in over a year. When I shoot cases of 77gr in MK12 and cases of 55gr in carbines and bolt 223 in a year. I know I would limit shooting the 6.5 due to cost, I don't drive home from the range thinking about the money I just spent at the range shooting 5.56 and 9mm on a range day. Years ago, I hunted with a friend and his 3 brothers, all 4 of them shot 300WM. I show up with a Rem 700 sendaro in 25-06 with my handloaded 100gr Nosler ballistic tips. They gave me hell about shooting "that small bullet that can't take a deer down". Myself and 3 of them shot deer that day, mine was a 210 lb 10 point at 483 yrds, when the bullet hit him, he turned to run but only made 2 steps. We walked miles that day looking for all 3 of the brothers deer shot with 300WM, all at distances less than 300 yrds. Never found any of their deer and mine didn't need to be tracked. I shot my limit of deer with that rifle every year for many years, from 75 yrds to 483 yrds, never had to track a deer. Larger caliber still means NOTHING without proper shot placement.
I'm just getting into the scoped AR 223-556. I purchased a cheap PSA 16 inch AR-15 and have been shooting it with very good accuracy out to 750 yd with 75 gr. Bthp.
I'm a former US Special Operator and US Special Operations Combat Medic. I've also been shot twice with an AK47 and i was a critical care nurse for 8 years. I shoot long range and extreme long range as a hobby. Here's some data i collected at SEA LEVEL a number of years ago with VARIOUS common rifles and VARIOUS types of ammo out of those rifles. I say SEA LEVEL because i live above 5,000 ft now and everything is faster for me now, so that's not really a fair assessment for all the people living on the coasts at sea level. PSA M16 with a 20" CHF chrome lined FN barrel. Shooting 77 grain IMI OTM's here's the data at sea level: 500 yards= 1,736 fps and 515 ft/lbs of energy. 750 yards= 1,315 fps and 296 ft/lbs of energy. 1,000 yards= 1,053 fps and 189 ft/lbs of energy. The 77 grain IMI OTM round out of the aforementioned rifle goes transonic roughly between 900 and 925 yards. Most of the people commenting on how limited the 5.56 supposedly is, are people who are assuming we're all shooting carbine length M4's loaded with 55 or 62 grain ammo. Obviously, this isn't true and it's very out of touch, out dated and ignorant if we're being completely honest here. Speed is what makes a round a more effective killing round. In fact, that's what the original concept of the 5.56 was shooting 20" M16's. Simply go watch a 55 grain or 62 grain 5.56 projectile, fired out of a 20" M16, hit ballistics gel and watch the massive cavitation open up behind the bullet. The devastation is obvious and the destruction is massive. It has nothing to do with the rounds "breaking up" like so many of you believe. So in summary, for "1,000 yard effectiveness" shooting the above set up and bullet pairing, YES the round is lethal and like the guest in the video said right up front at the outset of the video, it's about placement. If you're closer in, the round can do what it was intended to do by opening massive cavitation wounds but at extreme distances, without the velocity to ensure the bullet acts as originally intended you can STILL be lethal just by hitting the torsoe or any major blood vessels. Even a head shot when the bullet is still supersonic (in this case out to just over 900 yards) will penetrate the skull and enter the brain and be lethal/kill. Let's quickly go over 55 grain data at sea level with the aforementioned M16. At 500 yards= 1,566 fps and 299 ft/lbs. At 700 yards, we're STILL above the speed of sound and super sonic traveling 1,145 fps and 160 ft/lbs of energy. So again, i think even the 55 grain is largely lethal at 500 yards out of an M16 and can kill with good shot placement at 700 yards. Anything that hits a major vessel can kill quickly. Anything that penetrates the pleural space between your lungs and chest wall can kill either quickly via tension pneumothorax or slowly via pneumothorax and or hemothorax.. it may just take longer. There are many blood vessels, which if severed, can kill you quicly via hypovolemic shock/blood volume loss. I will start a channel this summer on RUclips (until they kick me off) and some other platforms. It's very frustrating seeing so many people not really understand bullet damage, trauma medicine, and long range shooting and shooting set ups. People need to drop the ego's and preconceived notions about this stuff and listen to the subject matter experts and use their brains to critically think about all of this stuff and actually learn the truth. Just for fun, here's some data on the SCAR16S shooting 77 grain IMI OTM's. at 500 yards= 1,645 fps and 462 ft/lbs of energy. At 750 yards= 1,250 fps and 267 ft/lbs of energy. With 55 grain IMI at 500 yards= 1,420 fps and 246 ft/lbs of energy. PRETTY EFFECTIVE numbers for lethality on human beings. DDM4V11Pro (18" heavy barrel, nitrided) with 77 grain IMI OTM's at 700 yards= 1,324 fps and 300 ft/lbs of energy. Supersonic out to 850 yards. With 55 grain IMI at 500 yards= 1,431 fps and 250 ft/lbs of energy. 1,125 fps is the speed of sound. As far as "speed" or "velocity" is concerned pertaining to the effectiveness of these bullets, think rifle round damage vs pistol round damage. Or in terms of just rifle rounds, think 6.5 Creedmoor vs the new 6.5 PRC. Same bullet but PRC is simply faster and hence MORE EFFECTIVE at longer distances. Case in point: Brandon and Stacy Hunt is the channel, 6.5 CM vs 6.5 PRC at 600 yards on 1/4" steel. The CM doesn't penetrate the steel while the PRC cuts right through with ease. Same bullet, PRC is faster by about 200 fps. If you're on a budget and can only afford ONE rifle, i'd recommend the PSA M16 with FN CHF barrel. Even though only about 1.5-2" MOA accuracy, i went 8/10 randomly with a pretty rapid cadence of fire at 750 yards on a steel silhouette and 8x Burris optic with 77 grain OTM's. The trigger was the Mil-Spec, BCM PNT trigger and no brake, just an A2 bird cage FH. You can fire a variety of bullets effectively and maximize your range effectiveness with that 20" barrel.
Thanks for sharing. Looking at the FY 2024 budget proposal, the DoD is gungho on that SBR length GPR w/ suppressor attachment. A large AR platform w/ a larger cartridge that produces 80,000 PSI. Gonna be interesting.
@John Basilone You were able to pen steel static targets at further distances because of our access to tungsten to manufacture M995. We won't have that luxury w/ a country who owns most of the world's supply of tungsten... and so we're back finding a caliber w/ a high velocity similar to M193 from a 20 inch barrel.
@@anonymoususer8599the US has plenty of Tungsten. We use other countries tungsten first for the obvious reason that in the long run, we'll be the last ones with the resources.
At 700 meters a 55 grain bullet hits with the same pounds per square inch as a 45acp at the muzzle. I wouldn't want to get shot with a 45 point blank so I don't Wana get shot at 700 meters with a 556.
At that range, a 55 grain bullet that started at 3250 fps will be down to about 1050 fps with about 134 foot pounds of kinetic energy. That is similar to the muzzle energy of a 22lr rifle with bulk ammo. A 45acp pistol firing a 230 grain bullet at 900 fps has 414 foot pounds of kinetic energy at the muzzle. That’s a big difference. I can’t think of where “pounds per square inch” fits into the comparison.
Thank you for highlighting my comment and I should reiterate that I was not saying it is impossible to stretch 5.56 with the MK-262 type loads but that the ballistics of 5.56 lend themselves better to intermediate ranges below 500-600 yards just based off of the lack of powder charge and payload on target but in the words of Kevin Owens of Fieldcraft Survival keep shooting the target until you get your intended result. That being said like Bruiser highlighted in the video the logistical advantage of leaning into the AR platform and developing the MK-12 made sense in the context of military and the cross compatibility of ammo at team level makes sense give the person running the MK-12 still needs to be in the fight if things move interior or to closer ranges and if the sniper or DMR is carrying a different caliber they not only have less ammo but cannot sustain from teammates if needed and all of that makes sense in a team/unit context however if I am a civilian and I can afford to use another platform that is superior in ballistics then why not?
The way I look at it is, if you have the right tool for the job, use the right tool for the job. But if you don't, use your own judgement. A wrench can be used as a hammer but it's not ideal.
He's right you know. Shouldn't be controversial to stick with the 16" 556 you already have, and buy 77g OTM in bulk which is round for round cheaper than a speciality long distance round, train to shoot the snot out of it at distance, and then time and funds permitting, invest in a longer range setup and corresponding ammo. Thanks for the video and refocusing what the priorities should be and not to ignore the capability everyone's 556 already has.
There is a book called Triggermen by Hans Halberstadt and there are some first hand accounts about the performance of the mk262 round used in the Mk12 on human targets during combat operations in Iraq. The combo was pretty consistent at putting fighters on their ass at extended (realistic) ranges. Not to mention the original m262 and clones have been greatly improved since then. Excellent read, anyways 77grn OTM/SMK/TMK damn near have the ballistic coefficient of a .308. Optimal for LR, no. But definitely relevant in the sense of versatility.
It is a absolute monster of a round that if people can afford to get they should. That round should have been what replaced m855. Use it for my personal loads, just very expensive and sometimes hard to find.
@@zack9912000bro, my biggest complaint about the USMC and the M27 rn is not the rifle, the rifle is great, however it is a system that is being held back by inferior 62gr ammo.
To learn long range shooting shoot 22 lr at 3-5 hundred yards. Your skills at long distance improves massively. Reading Wind and holdovers both get instinctive.
Hebrew Hammer (77gr IMI mod1 OTM) FTW. That said, 6ARC is a hell of a round - similar to 308 in a small frame platform. Note he said "I'm building one". Everyone I know is building at least an upper. Cheap to build (Barrel, bolt, 6.5 Grendel mag and you are set), and round costs are dropping. The new PRS Gas Gun matches are perfect for the ARC.
Go more in depth and talk about how certain barrel lengths and twist rates accompanied with specific bullet grains can achieve more desirable effects at longer distances while still maintaining the ability to be a fighting rifle
True, yet there is the proper caliber for the job. Just because the government tried to make it do everything doesnt mean it can. Their own studies and reports on the ground shows it limitations. Still love my 556 rifle but long distance shots need calibers good at that.
@@RiorozenThat is why 6mm calibers have come into fruition, it’s in an between round with superior BC. Our boys currently serving will need all the advantages they can get considering we’re not up against patriotic goat farmers anymore
What I know for sure as an NRA Long Range Competitor is that I can get 80 grain Berger’s to 1000 yards nose-on from my match conditioned iron sight AR15A2, for a 94% average score. What precludes higher scores is my inability to observe 1-3 mph full value wind changes, which will displace the bullet anywhere from 10 to 30 inches using an MOA wind constant of 10. This issue however inspires marksmanship development like nothing else I’ve found and thus I’ve come to enjoy this difficult shooting sport more than other divisions of High Power Rifle Competition.
I hit a dude with an M240 (5 hits total) and he fought us for 10 more minutes. Keep hitting what you shoot at with the weapon you shoot best. Your argument (well founded) about not using 6 ARC or Grendel is exactly what I was thinking when I sold my 6.5. I miss it but I shoot so much more now.
I just wanted to tell you to keep up the good work. Of all the gun tube stuff out there, this recent run of Spr / practical precision AR is my current favorite. The Spr class video gave me new things to think about, which is kind of unusual at this point. Getting input from guys like this that have real world experience helps validate my own experiences. Prov27:12.
If you have to ask, you haven’t tried it & you should try it. I’ve shot 5.56 out to 1,000 yards at steel & you can hear it ring the steel. That’s not nothing & would suck a lot to be shot at that distance still. Also, 22 Plinkster has a great RUclips channel with people coming out to his range once a month to shoot 1,000 yards with whatever rifle they choose & there have been shooters using 5.56, so these commenters are stupid. You will need a really good scope for those distances to really stretch out the bullet’s potential & those cost more than most high end AR-15s in the $2K range. Stop listening to people online & go test out the real range of your set ups.
I swear, I LOVE these series. The videos you do in this genre answer question's I've had for a while but cannot get real world experience like your guest has. I'm not a cool-guy! LOL
I have absolutely made 1000 yard hits on 36" steel plates with my 16" barreled .223 wylde rosco purebred build with 77 grain hand loads. It can 100% be done with ease if you know what you're doing. 20 mils of adjustment on the elevation knob, breathe, squeeze, bang. A couple seconds later: ding! Yeah, everyone wants to be a keyboard expert until you bring real world experience to the table and prove them wrong. Great video, guys. 👍
Nobody is saying that it can't be done. The argument is ease and effectiveness. Serious question: what would you rather shoot in a 15 mile an hour wind at 1K yards? A 77 OTM or a 130gr Berger?
@@terrencecox3748 Then theres the economic question. How long can most ppl shoot 130gr Bergers to gain the same level of profficieny as the cheeper 77gr Sierras? :)
@@Dan_O_ Cost is the only issue, but it will remain the issue because the community or the military chooses to stay in one place. But seriously, we should encourage those that are willing to spend a little more to do so. If I had a group of dudes but some of them had ARC, Valkyrie, or even Grendel, how do you think I'm going to use them?
I know that out to 835 yards using 262otm I can keep my rounds in a 5 inch circle year in, year out, on different ranges with my DDMk12. Lethal at that range? All I know is getting a round to the face would not be your happiest day!
Way to many people arguing the distance/lethality of the 5.56. I know first hand that my M16A1 was deadly at 500ish yards. It's all about shot placement and yes it was possible with iron sights. Now in my senior years my bones, muscles and eyes aren't what they used to be. So now I run with a 5.7 side arm and have my M16 clone.
honestly something like the mk12 or a modern analog is almost perfect for an individual rifle. it can handle pretty much any task from point blank to ~1000. and its lighter and you can carry( and afford) more ammo than a larger caliber rifle.
My experience with 556 started as a kid using 223rem for foxes, then in the Marines out to 500yds with M16A2. Now i am a custom rifle builder with my own shop and a 1000yd benchrest shooter. For a long time it was hard to get the 556nato out to 1000yd consistently. Now days with the bullets we have available like sierra 77gr smk or 77tgk, or speer 75gr tmj you can get an AR15 consistently on target at 1000yds. Then in FTR Class competition prone slow fire with a good custom bolt action with bipod and rear bag with bullets weighing 80gr to 95gr by sierra and berger you can get to be very consistent at 1000yds. However it does not retain enough energy to be a good choice for hunting or combat purposes at that range
I shoot a 6.5 grendel in prs and gas gun matches it sure helps spotting impacts passed 600 yards. I do handload and have committed to the grendel. 223 isnt horrible and works arc and grendel are just more consistent and efficient
awesome content: I am a huge fan of 5.56 & .223Rem. I just wish that ammunition manufacturers, would keep up the R&D with the 5.56 cartridge. With all of his modern case technology, propellent, and projectiles, and bimetal cases. I still think 5.56 still has allot to offer. they just haven't found that sweet spot yet. but getting closer
I hope I’m wrong but I think it’s all but tapped out. The case capacity is going to limit pushing it faster or heavier bullets. The bimetallic is all but out of the question because of the Saami specs and a bunch of rifles that would blow up with more pressure. If there was more juice to squeeze the manufacturers would because it would very lucrative in both the civilian and military markets.
77 smk is SOOO WEAK at 1k yds! Just cuz it's possible to make hits at that range, doesn't always mean you should. Wind is the biggest issue for long range shooting, and that little bullet will drift like 6ft in a 5 mph breeze when launched at 2500 fps. And a big reason why many don't shoot .223 is because it's so hard to spot misses. Also, if you're shooting AT bad guys...be sure they can't just as easily shoot back...with something better than a short AR.
I had a patient in the hospital once that took an A zone hit in his right lung from a .22LR at around 15-20 yards. It was a shooting accident. He was ventilated in the ICU for more than a week and underwent two surgeries before he was out of the woods. So, if 5.56 is delivering a similar level of ballistic performance as a .22LR at any given range (not exactly sure what the equivalent would be) you do not want to take a lung shot. I can tell you that with certainty.
I was at K&M with a non-military buddy & he was hitting at 970 +/- yards with .223 hand loads. I thought I was shooting well with my Barrett, humbled quickly.
Premium 77 grain 5.56mm is on the expensive side in my area, though cheaper that 6mm ARC. However, 6mm ARC out of 20" AR shoots flatter with less wind drift in either of the 3 available loadings. I hope the other manufacturers start producing 6mm ARC ammo. It is cheaper to shoot 77 grain 5.56mm at the moment, but it's not as good at distance.
This is where the 6mm and above cartridges come into play. 5.56 is a 300 yard and under type of caliber, and in regards to DMR type roles was meant only to be an interim stop gap. Now we see SOCOM rocking the 6.5 creed and eventually the new 6.8 if they haven’t already
@@zack9912000 Indeed yeah no doubt 5.56 will always remain King for meme and HD purposes. But ppl forget what caliber we were using during the Korean War when Chicoms tried bum rushing our positions.. 30 Cal. Our boys currently serving needs a better caliber.
The irony of him saying “people just repeat commentary” after he stated “more deer are killed with a 22 lr than any other caliber” 😂 He’s guilty of the same thing! By the way, there is no way to qualify that often-repeated statement. The assumption and only way it *could* be true is poachers exist in large numbers, use .22lr, and kill more deer than legal hunters combined. .22lr isn’t legal for hunting whitetail, so we know there are at least 4 million deer a year killed with things other than .22 lr. We also know that around 90% of deer in the last twenty years have been killed with .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, .270 and .30-30 Winchester.
This topic was debated in a garand thumb video when he had Kevin Owen's and another gentleman there discussing their fighting rifle set up. Kevin Owen's proceeded to say something to the effect "and idk where the whole 5.56 ain't enough came from cuz I've shot alot of guys with the 5.56" as he's laughing his ass off. I'd trust his judgment over any RUclips comment section warrior. That dude flat out laughed an essentially said all u guys that don't think it's capable are complete morons cuz every dude he's shot with it no longer sees their family
Is that the green beret that said "I've killed a lot of people with 556?" In response to people saying 556 doesn't kill. Cause that was honestly sick. So many people will say 556 doesn't kill then you have people like him who have put down who knows how many terrorists be so casual about it. Are there calibers that are better tailored for long range? Sure, but I think he proved that shot placement and skill matter more
All this is so true i have a 6creed and 6grendel and they havent seen the range in a year. Ammo hella expensive even though i have a decent pile to shoot its the good precision stuff im not pulling the trigger. So i rather shoot 223/556.
Everyone keeps hyping up 6mm MAX (which I admit sounds amazing) it uses the same BCG as 5.56, you just need a 6mm barrel. Ballistics are impressive, it remains supersonic past 1300 yards....BUT even if you reload with your own brass, you'll be lucky if it only costs $1.50/per round. That round is 20yrs away from becoming as readily available as 5.56
Awesome content jimmy, i cant get enough of the spr stuff your doin as i am on this journey myself your last video literally debunked a conversation me and my Marine corps brethren were having, the drone was the icing on the cake. My only complaint is more spr content haha keep it up brotha hopefully I’ll hit that range soon, it’s the Ranch in eagle lake correct? And you had mentioned another in Waxahachie if you could confirm those for me I’ll start planning
Also let’s get the comment here on kinetic energy of 5.56 at 5-600 is the same as 9mm at 25y… about 300ft lbs…. Also I love comments from people before get watch the video…
@@roberthutchinson2856 Instead start using the proper tool for the right job, if a person knows they will be making long engagements. Have the right caliber. 556 may reach a target but if you MUST stop them , you better hit the head or the heart. Even then at the distance the round is not predictable when it looses so much velocity. 5.56 is a gamble playing this game at best.
@@zack9912000 the reality is that there isnt a "right tool" for the wide variety of engagments you might run into. This was very thoroughly covered in the video.
Thank you for your content. Very saturated with bullshit newbie stuff. It’s hard for guys who actually shoot to find people who are worth what they preach. I appreciate you taking the time to share what you’ve learned and experienced through your content.
Good video. I see a few people didn’t watch the video or their comprehension skills are lacking. If 5.56/.223 is what I’ve got on me then that’s what gets used. Pretty simple.
There IS a middle ground here! We should not fall on one side of he other, but instead incorporate both. Let's not fight each other on this. I'm certainly not taking away from Jim's guest here. My combative experience was fighting convicts for the Ca. Dept of Corrections. I'm certainly not taking away from the capability of 5.56. As a CO in the '90's in California I saw first hand how nasty .223 could be. It's ability to phuck 5hi1t up was legendary! He's 100% correct but there are still some ideas or points worthy of consideration. * Perhaps the most important point, and what drives the thinking of many: Do we or do we not want to increase our capability at the team and/or individual level(s)? Might there be a very good reason to increase the capability (in this case range) of our mil and civ forces? Considering there have been deliveries of ARC and Creedmoor based systems to the military, it's apparent that some pockets of the military are trying to overcome what they see as shortcomings with 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. As an addendum to the above, you should check out Quantified Performance. Peeps are certainly pushing their 5.56 guns there, but Ash Hess has also made some interesting comments on the use of 6mm and up calibers. * 100% correct are the comments about cost. That's why many have chosen 6.5 Grendel. There is still butt loads of that Wolf stuff out there thats a lot cheaper than brass AND accurate enough for better than 500 yards (ask me how I know) with less wind deflection and much better energy on target. On top of that, Grendel WILL continue to be cheaper as you now have major powers (Serbia as an example) that are moving to the round and US manufacturers that have recently announced more offerings using it. I might add that I can find 500 rounds of Wolf Grendel is cheaper than the same number of 77 gr OTM! * Completely correct again (of course) concerning comparability with team mates. But is there no room for the idea of a blended or composite team structure based on rounds carried and intended usage? At the very least, wouldn't it be a good idea to encourage those that choose to go the route of a different round to continue and incorporate him or her for a specific role? And never mind that in a worst case scenario, I can use the lower on my Valkyrie, ARC, or Grendel with a 5.56 upper and 5.56 mags. Why not pack something like a 10.5 to 12.5 upper with just a dot should things go really REALLY sideways? All the above said, I agree completely with the idea that whatever you choose, GET GOOD WITH IT! This is the way!
There's enough energy in a 5.56 bullet at extended range to cause the bullet to splatter against a steel target. Calculating it out, it's energy is between a .32ACP and .380ACP. Everyone thinks just about velocity, not about bullet weight. Is it the most definitive man stopper at distance? Obviously not. Will it make people stop doing what they're doing at distance? Yea.
Military research has shown that yes you can hit the target but unless you get direct hits on vitals, the round isnt effective. And even then it doesn't always take the person out of the fight. Plenty of research in this people can see for themselves. 5.56 at distance simply doesnt have it consistently. If I know i need to reach out past 300 meters its going to be 6.8 or .308 calibers
@@inahurrytooften3121 It's more consistent at being effective at a distance. It is absolutely for sure a beast of a round in 5.56. MK262 is my choice that I personally run for self-defense. Yet past 300 yards, I still want a larger caliber that research has shown to be 6.8 and larger. The reason for the move away from 5.56 to 6.8 is they need a much more effective round at distance that can punch through level 4 plates. 5.56 simply can't touch that. Plenty of studies the military has done over the decades, and history has shown us the larger caliber 6.8 and larger are simply what is more effective for the future enemies DOD sees us going up against. We have known about the 5.56 shortcomings since the 1990s, and there have been improvements.
At 4:17, when you say you have guys line up and shoot steel at extended ranges; what are the ranges? I have found that with a 16" AR, the range at which hit probability goes to nothing is about 700 to 800 yards. Past those ranges the bullet goes trans-sonic and flies all over the place. I shoot a lot of 55g ammo because its cheap and has better terminal effect than 77g inside 200 yds. 77g doesn't extend that range as much as you might think over 55g. I'm one of those guys that says if your engagements are going to be past 600yards, then you need a different platform.
I wish Canadian ammunition prices were this good. Also to add on to that in Ukraine near the end of my time there we were using 556 and it has no problem taking people at 600 that's for sure. 545 is very similar out to that range
The dishonest part of the 5.56 thing I see comes down to barrel length. Guys will say they've hit steel at 700 yards with their 10.3. With your mk12 that would be relevant. I'm still skeptical of the argument that just because you hit it, that also means you had the velocity to do it effectively.
idk about you but most people cant hit anything at 500 yards much less after getting ice picked by a 556 round in the chest at 700. that will effectively put that guy out of the fight. who cares about killing him when hes that far away.
@@DefZen343 its a big deal if it doesn't put them down. At a distance they can still be a threat. That is another target that could later kill one of your own down the road.
@@DefZen343 Right? Are we really trying to engage combatants at that distance? And if we are, whey not have someone with a better system to augment the teams overall ability? @zack991 I believe (meaning I could be wrong) that it was old Soviet thinking that an injured person is still just as good if it means the OPFOR is diminished by more than one due to people having to take care of that person.
@@terrencecox3748 guy said 10.3, so that means he is an assaulter. his main role is not a Marksman. if he has the opportunity and ability to wound or take an enemy out of the fight then why not? the video is explaining that and seems most refuse to understand that. a whole squad is not running around with SPRs or full power rifles, they are heavy, long and cumbersome in close quarters. even the ammunition will be limited by weight and most people cannot shoot powerful rifles for extended periods of time without flinching, people are acting like its better to just wait around or say you are screwed than train and make shots out to longer ranges with your fighting carbine.
The only way I’ve been able to shoot my ARC as much as I have over the last 6 months is by loading for it. Yes it’s a pain in the ass. If you don’t have a loading set up. Go 223 with some black hills or something with 77 gr and get out and shoot. Shooting 223 is better than shooting nothing! Plus it’s satisfying as hell to make shots out past 800 with a 223.
The only reason 6arc even exists is because 556 regularly showed itself ineffective beyond 400 yards in the middle east, I mean that's pretty well your answer right there with real-world data.
@@veracitysolutionsllc , I've read 3 or 4 articles on it, but most recently last fall I watched a discussion on it over on Hornadys' channel, it would be listed with 6mm ARC somewhere in the title.....the one guy discusses being contacted by the DoD looking for an ar15 cartridge that improved on the 556's terminal ballistics range, initially he recommended the 6.5 Grendal, they asked if that could be improved upon, so he went to work on it and came up with the ARC.
@@veracitysolutionsllc also read anything about the 277 fury, it’s entire development was for this reason. To defeat body armor and extend effective range.
Why hasn’t any just performed a human torso sized jell test at 1000yrds? So we can get some sort of idea of how different calibers and barrels lengths perform at that distance?
@@GhettoTactical its has already been done. Hence the militarys move away from.5.56 Dod has done several different studies on the matter. With body armor technology improvements, possible wars in europe and war with china. 5.56 doesn't perform well enough. Hence the move to 6.8 which the studies have shown to be what is needed.
@@jimmybrodriguez True, yet with current fears with a war with china and possible escalating wars in Europe. 5.56 isnt able to fit those needs. On top of all the other short coming 5.56 has had at distance in afganistan. One of the many channels reviewing the sig rifle did a ballistics test with 6.8. I will have to find the video.The SIG 6.8 non AP round is almost blowing through level 4 plates with one round. A second round would have gone through. The military has said the plan is there would be training 6.8 ammo and 6.8 AP ammo for deployments.
I’d much rather a shorter 5.56 for 0-500 and then a 6mm or .300WM for anything past that. Why limit yourself to 5.56 when options exist? Just because you can shoot 5.56 to 7-800 doesn’t mean you should or doesn’t mean it’s the most efficient caliber to do so. I’d rather not take the chance with a slow 5.56 when I know bigger calibers can outpace it very quickly. And the training point is pretty moot. If they’re both AR platforms and you know your dope for each round then it’s literally child’s play going from one to the other. You don’t need to shoot 5k rds to get comfortable on an AR.
The whole premise is what 556 is capable of not if it’s the better option. Additionally Joe points out that most people only have 556 as an option and can’t go to something larger in which knowing what 556 is capable of is very important.
ELR - Extreme or Extended Long Range depending upon who tells the story. ALL calibers are ELR capable based upon the ballistic capabilities of each caliber. ELR 5.56 is not a bad way to train. Affordable ammo and gear. Accurized gas guns are relatively new to the shooting world, and the ammo for them is even younger in the grand scheme of things. The teachers that blazed this path, Rifles Only and Accuracy First are still young and relevant. Perhaps someday the magazine writers and social influencers will take note in mass. Until then, people will parrot what they've been taught. Keep shooting.
Great video and comments. Do a search on utube for "5.56 & .308 vs 5 gallon water jugs at 300 yards" for great visuals of what the cheap 77Gr OTM can do at 300 yards. Is it the best at distance? Nope, but it gets the job done for most per the ballistics calcs, real world results, shot placement, fundamentals etc.. And my whole thesis is cost, how much can the average person spend on each shot? For me at least being a reloader and new LD shooter I won't pay over .75 per round while I learn. Btw on the East coast my range stops at 300 yards lol
All these guys that make negative comments about 5.56 shoot on a bench aiming at ballistic gel. I’m a former SDM and was issued a MK12 and I’ve engaged targets a 700-800 and the 77gr dropped the target no problem.
We shoot out to 600M with 556n at PRS Gas Gun Matches . They hit the steel prettt hard thats for sure . I have been using 6ARC since the get go . I freaking love the 6ARC . Its chepaer than 6.5CM or 6CM thats a fact . Its also not a barrel burner unlike some others. 6.5G is what id get if i was on a budget and wanted a little but more ass behind the bullet . You can get 100g FMJ for pretty cheap . 6ARC there is 0 range ammo . 6ARC is all performace ammo . My 12.5 6ARC is my favorite upper to shoot . That little suckee bangs steel super hard at 600m . I bought the 6ARC for dual purpose . I wanted to have Shorty AR15 capable of 600m and i also wanted practical Deer / Hogg slayer . Ive heard Frank Proctor say they had 0 issues with their 14.5s and Mod H going out 700Y for terrorist dirt naps with MK262 MOD 1..
Couldn't agree more about ARC and Grendel. When considering a longer range alternative, ARC was my first choice. But then I discovered that Wolf 100gr was plentiful so I chose Grendel. Not as flat a shooter as ARC for sure, but versatile as hell. I have 7.62x39 for hunting, but i've taken the Grendel out. Check out Carpe Sus for Grendel hog destruction!
@@terrencecox3748 6.5G 300Y ans in has the 6ARC Beat . Anything after 300 the 6ARC starts to pull away but not by all that much . I still might build out BA 12.5" Hanson 6.5G Upper just because of the FMJ ammo .
I have the same theory. In the moment you have to use what you have. Is 556 the best for extended distance no. However your probably not going to go everywhere with a bolt gun strapped to your back and a bunch of ammo shoved up your ass. Kind of tough to fit with all your big heads already up there. Most people have a 556 on hand all the time. So the fact that you can use it for close stuff and in tiny confined spaces easy and yet stretch it out to 1000 if you had to or needed to is awesome. Even if the ballistics at that distance are the same as a 22lr who cares. Its what you have in the moment. If someone breaks into your house and your closest gun is a 22lr sitting on your table are you not going to use it because its a 22lr or are you going to grab it because its the best tool for the situation due to it being what is available at the time.
The biggest downfall of that cartridge was when the military opted to use shorter barrel as in a carbine. That cartridge was initially designed for a 20 inch barrel to attain the proper velocity for the bullet to do what it was designed to do. putting it in a 24 inch will get more speed Along with using heavier bullets. And while not being ideal, that will go into flesh at 1000 yards, not something you’re gonna laugh about.
A key component to shooting 223 Remington out of the AR15 platform is matching the correct bullet weight to their corresponding twist rate. Was the basic AR15 designed for long range shooting?? I doubt it as the M16 was not designed for long range. Those are just my thoughts, based on being issued the M16A1 from 72 to 92.
@richardoliver1468 - Re: "Was the basic AR15 designed for long range shooting?? I doubt it as the M16 was not designed for long range. Those are just my thoughts, based on being issued the M16A1 from 72 to 92." The AR15 began when Armalite made a play for the Army's "light automatic rifle" project in the mid-late 1950s. CONARC CO General Willard Wyman had issued the RFP - request for proposals. The project stipulated that the weapon be select--fire, of light weight and overall compact dimensions along the lines of the M-1/M-2 Carbine already in service, and it was to employ a .22-caliber projectile. Armalite had missed out on the new service rifle contract which ultimately resulted in the M-14, but Armalite head engineer Eugene Stoner and his colleague James Sullivan downsized the AR10 to fit the new project and its cartridge, what eventually became 5.56x45mm M193 55-grain FMJ/Ball. The new weapon was to have terminal performance and lethality equivalent to or superior to the 110-grain .30-Carbine load, with an effective range to match, i.e., 250-300 yards. Later, the range spec was upped to 400 yards, and then 500 yards. In short, the army wanted an actual assault rifle using an intermediate cartridge. The old guard military still favored battle rifles and full-power cartridges, however, and the increased range requirement was probably the proverbial bone being thrown to them. Stoner's new weapon, however, was really at its best inside 200 yards, where its wounding effects and terminal performance were at their optimum for that round. Stoner and his design team could not rely on the traditional method of increasing ammunition lethality, of increasing the mass of the projectile. Due to the constraints set by the army and the cartridge, the bullet could weigh only so much. So, the design team pumped up muzzle velocity instead, to over 3000 fps, and designed a bullet with a crimping groove or cannelure, which would tend to promote fragmentation or disintegration of the projectile upon entering a soft target such as an enemy soldier, provided MV was high-enough (~ 2600 fps or greater). Instead of a single caliber-sized wound track, the fragmented M193 bullet acted instead like a HP or expanding round in creating multiple wound channels and extensive local tissue damage. There was a catch, however: If the MV of the M193 bullet was not high-enough and/or the bullet did not exhibit the proper yaw or gyroscopic instability, it would often fail to fragment, much reducing the lethality of the round. The sometimes inconsistent performance on the battlefield of the new M-16 and its ammunition was not entirely understood in the mid-late 1960s and it took some time for military and civilian engineers and specialists to unravel what was going on. But ultimately, some years later, it was learned that the performance of 5.56x45mm in combat was highly-dependent upon certain key factors - high MV, sufficient yaw, and bullet design, to name a few key parameters. Range of engagement, too. Stoner's design was intended as an assault rifle, a weapon optimized for use in the 0-300 yard range envelope. And it largely fulfilled those requirements once its teething problems in Vietnam early-on were solved. However, as late as the 1990s, the weapon system as a whole remained very sensitive to ammunition design and type being used, and the results obtained on the battlefield. Most-famously in the Battle of the Black Sea - the Blackhawk Down incident in 1993. In that battle, our elite Rangers and Delta Force operators watched Somali militiamen absorb multiple center-mass hits with M855 62-grain green-tip - and yet stay in the fight. One would think that If there's anything a grunt needs, it is a weapon and ammo capable of putting the enemy down and keeping him down. When an infantryman shots an enemy combatant he darned well wants the guy to stay shot, right? I was never a ground-pounder but it must be very frustrating not to have complete faith in your primary weapon and ammo. But thanks to amazing developments in the platform itself and its ammo, the AR15/M16 has gone places Eugene Stoner probably never imagined. Whoever thought competitors with AR15s would take over the national matches at 1,000 yards at Camp Perry? And DMs and snipers in combat are stretching them way, way out there.
Great long range with 556 means even better skill with a tool made for long range. I dont get what people dont understand. Get good at pushing limits on one platform makes you better at pushing limits on any platform.
Most comments about the .223/5.56 come from Ignorance and what they have read that OTHERS have read and not actually hands on sending rounds down range absolutely. I’ve been shooting that caliber since 1984 and my first Introduction to the M-16A2 was 1991 and it has its limitations past 500 yards and a lot of room for inconsistency past that but it is a capable round at distance if you know how to take advantage of its usefulness. I stick with what works for me and has been the past 4 plus Decades, the .308, 30/06 and .556 and actually thought about the 6.5 etc. but soon realized they are silly and expensive for an old Broken DAV like myself lol… SF
My scar 16s sends m855 pretty damn accurately to 700 yards, probably could do it much futher but havent tried. I would not want to get hit by it at long distances.
People who talk about the 556 not being effective beyond 500 yards have not seen any real long distance range work. I have seen 22LR shot at five hundred yards and almost be effective to kill! And if a 22LR will do it, what will the 556 which is approximately 5 times the size and capacity do capacity do? On top of that, talk to any Marine, we used to shoot our A2's to 760 yards back in 90 on a regular basis. And with iron sights..
Re: "People who talk about the 556 not being effective beyond 500 yards have not seen any real long distance range work. I have seen 22LR shot at five hundred yards and almost be effective to kill!" It's not about whether the round can kill or seriously wound at that distance, or even further, but the probabilities involved. Physics is the law: KE = 1/2 (M)(V)squared. The .224-cartridge is highly-dependent upon MV to make its kinetic energy, and even in heavier loads, that velocity begins to degrade rapidly as ranges lengthen. Since the projectiles are light in comparison to heavier larger caliber alternatives, they lose terminal effectiveness as a result. An equally tough problem is wind. It isn't easy to shoot those light .224-caliber pills accurately in high wind at long range. Heavier projectiles, especially ones designed efficiently, cheat the wind better and are more-forgiving of wind estimation errors as a result. Can lethal hits be made with 77-grain or heavier bullets at long range? Sure, but the same shot is easier to make with a bigger, heavy projectile and that heavier projectile will do more damage when it arrives. I admire people who can shoot those tiny pills well-and-accurately at 600 or 700 yards. I've done it and it isn't easy. The folks who do it well are very skilled. But why make it so tough in the first place? If I know I need to make a shot that long or longer, I'm reaching for a 7mm Rem-Mag (or 6.5 CM, or 338LM, etc.) every time or something along those lines. And the hits will be so regular it would get boring. But damn, I have to admit it: It is very impressive to hit consistently at 700 yards with an iron-sighted M16. Good shooting, Marine. Ooorah.
This is a shooters opinion vs a couch keyboard warrior. Anyone who shoots all the time at distances understands that being able to stretch out common calibers is massively important even more than having the perfect round for the job. When are you ever going to go super sniper soldier, pick your perfect rifle setup and know you’re going to be in a long range gunfight exclusively. I’ll take an spr any day with weapon system comparability with ar15s. Still love my bolt guns tho
Imagine someone takes a long ass screwdriver and heats it to 550 degrees with a blowtorch. Now imagine they stab you with it. That is how ineffective 5.56 is at 500 meters. It is still a nearly 600-degree piece of metal flying at 1.5x the speed of sound. From the longer barrel lengths, a muzzle velocity of ~2700 fps with a 77 gr SMK retains about 1600 fps and a little over 450 ft/lbs st 500m; that is the velocity a .22 Mag rifle has at the muzzle but with nearly twice the mass, and the energy of a hot 9mm duty load. It might not be Thor's Hammer, but it is undeniably lethal. Given the logistical pragmatism of the 5.56 and its numerous other advantages, I struggle to see how this would not be considered effective. There may be better choices, but those choices probably don't share mags with the rest of your team or do really well at across-the-room distances. I suspect people who only shoot guns playing video games make these conclusions and then spread it as gospel on the internet.
So there is a article about this cop shooting a guy a total of I believe 14 times with a 45. And the last two shots he shot him straight in the face! He now carry’s like 240 rounds and changed to 9m. Shot placement ……. Another is watching the dude from black water sniping with 5.56 at a distance of I believe 850 yards putting dicks in the dirt!
@@zack9912000 When 6.5 and 6mm exist cheaply, yes its wayy outdated. It falls like a rock and cant handle the wind nearly as well as the Creedmoor calibers. Its only advantage is that its cheaper than most calibers
The is no question the 5.56 is capable and as has been said it not what you want it is what you have. However there are rifles like the British BMS CAM Rifle: AT turnbolt Built Around An AR15 Bolt Head (ruclips.net/video/PQowfY9-dZM/видео.html) a novel approach. there are international target rifle shooting associations which use the 5.56 NATO as a valid entry. The 5.56 NATO is inexpensive to shoot and provides a shooting challenge at a far lower cost than the classic 7.62 NATO
Great measured take - thanks for the vid
You have to engage the target with what you have in your hands... well said...
This!
So my Logitech G403 mouse?
@@ericbergfield6451 Exactly! Hahahah!
no true.
@@ericbergfield6451 The keyboard is stronger.
Being able to use the same magazines and ammo for every man in the squad is a huge benefit, whether it’s assault, LMG,SPR all using same mags and ammunition is impressive.
Love the comments! I have 6.5 CM AR10 and bolt rifles, haven't them to the range in over a year. When I shoot cases of 77gr in MK12 and cases of 55gr in carbines and bolt 223 in a year. I know I would limit shooting the 6.5 due to cost, I don't drive home from the range thinking about the money I just spent at the range shooting 5.56 and 9mm on a range day.
Years ago, I hunted with a friend and his 3 brothers, all 4 of them shot 300WM. I show up with a Rem 700 sendaro in 25-06 with my handloaded 100gr Nosler ballistic tips. They gave me hell about shooting "that small bullet that can't take a deer down". Myself and 3 of them shot deer that day, mine was a 210 lb 10 point at 483 yrds, when the bullet hit him, he turned to run but only made 2 steps. We walked miles that day looking for all 3 of the brothers deer shot with 300WM, all at distances less than 300 yrds. Never found any of their deer and mine didn't need to be tracked. I shot my limit of deer with that rifle every year for many years, from 75 yrds to 483 yrds, never had to track a deer.
Larger caliber still means NOTHING without proper shot placement.
Liar
@@asrt1982 - I guess someone that can't shoot would call it a lie!
I'm just getting into the scoped AR 223-556. I purchased a cheap PSA 16 inch AR-15 and have been shooting it with very good accuracy out to 750 yd with 75 gr. Bthp.
Nice!
Niceeee!
Sober, adult analysis. Love it
Bold assumptions lol
Shhhh.... 🤫
I'm a former US Special Operator and US Special Operations Combat Medic. I've also been shot twice with an AK47 and i was a critical care nurse for 8 years. I shoot long range and extreme long range as a hobby.
Here's some data i collected at SEA LEVEL a number of years ago with VARIOUS common rifles and VARIOUS types of ammo out of those rifles.
I say SEA LEVEL because i live above 5,000 ft now and everything is faster for me now, so that's not really a fair assessment for all the people living on the coasts at sea level.
PSA M16 with a 20" CHF chrome lined FN barrel. Shooting 77 grain IMI OTM's here's the data at sea level: 500 yards= 1,736 fps and 515 ft/lbs of energy. 750 yards= 1,315 fps and 296 ft/lbs of energy. 1,000 yards= 1,053 fps and 189 ft/lbs of energy.
The 77 grain IMI OTM round out of the aforementioned rifle goes transonic roughly between 900 and 925 yards.
Most of the people commenting on how limited the 5.56 supposedly is, are people who are assuming we're all shooting carbine length M4's loaded with 55 or 62 grain ammo. Obviously, this isn't true and it's very out of touch, out dated and ignorant if we're being completely honest here. Speed is what makes a round a more effective killing round. In fact, that's what the original concept of the 5.56 was shooting 20" M16's. Simply go watch a 55 grain or 62 grain 5.56 projectile, fired out of a 20" M16, hit ballistics gel and watch the massive cavitation open up behind the bullet. The devastation is obvious and the destruction is massive. It has nothing to do with the rounds "breaking up" like so many of you believe. So in summary, for "1,000 yard effectiveness" shooting the above set up and bullet pairing, YES the round is lethal and like the guest in the video said right up front at the outset of the video, it's about placement. If you're closer in, the round can do what it was intended to do by opening massive cavitation wounds but at extreme distances, without the velocity to ensure the bullet acts as originally intended you can STILL be lethal just by hitting the torsoe or any major blood vessels. Even a head shot when the bullet is still supersonic (in this case out to just over 900 yards) will penetrate the skull and enter the brain and be lethal/kill.
Let's quickly go over 55 grain data at sea level with the aforementioned M16. At 500 yards= 1,566 fps and 299 ft/lbs. At 700 yards, we're STILL above the speed of sound and super sonic traveling 1,145 fps and 160 ft/lbs of energy.
So again, i think even the 55 grain is largely lethal at 500 yards out of an M16 and can kill with good shot placement at 700 yards.
Anything that hits a major vessel can kill quickly. Anything that penetrates the pleural space between your lungs and chest wall can kill either quickly via tension pneumothorax or slowly via pneumothorax and or hemothorax.. it may just take longer. There are many blood vessels, which if severed, can kill you quicly via hypovolemic shock/blood volume loss.
I will start a channel this summer on RUclips (until they kick me off) and some other platforms. It's very frustrating seeing so many people not really understand bullet damage, trauma medicine, and long range shooting and shooting set ups. People need to drop the ego's and preconceived notions about this stuff and listen to the subject matter experts and use their brains to critically think about all of this stuff and actually learn the truth.
Just for fun, here's some data on the SCAR16S shooting 77 grain IMI OTM's. at 500 yards= 1,645 fps and 462 ft/lbs of energy. At 750 yards= 1,250 fps and 267 ft/lbs of energy. With 55 grain IMI at 500 yards= 1,420 fps and 246 ft/lbs of energy. PRETTY EFFECTIVE numbers for lethality on human beings.
DDM4V11Pro (18" heavy barrel, nitrided) with 77 grain IMI OTM's at 700 yards= 1,324 fps and 300 ft/lbs of energy. Supersonic out to 850 yards. With 55 grain IMI at 500 yards= 1,431 fps and 250 ft/lbs of energy.
1,125 fps is the speed of sound.
As far as "speed" or "velocity" is concerned pertaining to the effectiveness of these bullets, think rifle round damage vs pistol round damage.
Or in terms of just rifle rounds, think 6.5 Creedmoor vs the new 6.5 PRC. Same bullet but PRC is simply faster and hence MORE EFFECTIVE at longer distances. Case in point: Brandon and Stacy Hunt is the channel, 6.5 CM vs 6.5 PRC at 600 yards on 1/4" steel. The CM doesn't penetrate the steel while the PRC cuts right through with ease. Same bullet, PRC is faster by about 200 fps.
If you're on a budget and can only afford ONE rifle, i'd recommend the PSA M16 with FN CHF barrel. Even though only about 1.5-2" MOA accuracy, i went 8/10 randomly with a pretty rapid cadence of fire at 750 yards on a steel silhouette and 8x Burris optic with 77 grain OTM's. The trigger was the Mil-Spec, BCM PNT trigger and no brake, just an A2 bird cage FH. You can fire a variety of bullets effectively and maximize your range effectiveness with that 20" barrel.
Thanks for sharing. Looking at the FY 2024 budget proposal, the DoD is gungho on that SBR length GPR w/ suppressor attachment. A large AR platform w/ a larger cartridge that produces 80,000 PSI. Gonna be interesting.
Great info! Keep us posted on the channel!
@John Basilone You were able to pen steel static targets at further distances because of our access to tungsten to manufacture M995. We won't have that luxury w/ a country who owns most of the world's supply of tungsten... and so we're back finding a caliber w/ a high velocity similar to M193 from a 20 inch barrel.
@@anonymoususer8599the US has plenty of Tungsten. We use other countries tungsten first for the obvious reason that in the long run, we'll be the last ones with the resources.
At 700 meters a 55 grain bullet hits with the same pounds per square inch as a 45acp at the muzzle. I wouldn't want to get shot with a 45 point blank so I don't Wana get shot at 700 meters with a 556.
At that range, a 55 grain bullet that started at 3250 fps will be down to about 1050 fps with about 134 foot pounds of kinetic energy. That is similar to the muzzle energy of a 22lr rifle with bulk ammo. A 45acp pistol firing a 230 grain bullet at 900 fps has 414 foot pounds of kinetic energy at the muzzle. That’s a big difference. I can’t think of where “pounds per square inch” fits into the comparison.
Thank you for highlighting my comment and I should reiterate that I was not saying it is impossible to stretch 5.56 with the MK-262 type loads but that the ballistics of 5.56 lend themselves better to intermediate ranges below 500-600 yards just based off of the lack of powder charge and payload on target but in the words of Kevin Owens of Fieldcraft Survival keep shooting the target until you get your intended result. That being said like Bruiser highlighted in the video the logistical advantage of leaning into the AR platform and developing the MK-12 made sense in the context of military and the cross compatibility of ammo at team level makes sense give the person running the MK-12 still needs to be in the fight if things move interior or to closer ranges and if the sniper or DMR is carrying a different caliber they not only have less ammo but cannot sustain from teammates if needed and all of that makes sense in a team/unit context however if I am a civilian and I can afford to use another platform that is superior in ballistics then why not?
The way I look at it is, if you have the right tool for the job, use the right tool for the job. But if you don't, use your own judgement. A wrench can be used as a hammer but it's not ideal.
He's right you know. Shouldn't be controversial to stick with the 16" 556 you already have, and buy 77g OTM in bulk which is round for round cheaper than a speciality long distance round, train to shoot the snot out of it at distance, and then time and funds permitting, invest in a longer range setup and corresponding ammo. Thanks for the video and refocusing what the priorities should be and not to ignore the capability everyone's 556 already has.
There is a book called Triggermen by Hans Halberstadt and there are some first hand accounts about the performance of the mk262 round used in the Mk12 on human targets during combat operations in Iraq. The combo was pretty consistent at putting fighters on their ass at extended (realistic) ranges. Not to mention the original m262 and clones have been greatly improved since then. Excellent read, anyways 77grn OTM/SMK/TMK damn near have the ballistic coefficient of a .308. Optimal for LR, no. But definitely relevant in the sense of versatility.
It is a absolute monster of a round that if people can afford to get they should. That round should have been what replaced m855. Use it for my personal loads, just very expensive and sometimes hard to find.
@@zack9912000bro, my biggest complaint about the USMC and the M27 rn is not the rifle, the rifle is great, however it is a system that is being held back by inferior 62gr ammo.
To learn long range shooting shoot 22 lr at 3-5 hundred yards. Your skills at long distance improves massively. Reading Wind and holdovers both get instinctive.
@@mylesharvey6488 like knocking the sights off a red ryder.
I think it (5.56 77gr) had the ballistics @ 400m of a .38spl at the muzzle if I remember correctly.
Hebrew Hammer (77gr IMI mod1 OTM) FTW. That said, 6ARC is a hell of a round - similar to 308 in a small frame platform. Note he said "I'm building one". Everyone I know is building at least an upper. Cheap to build (Barrel, bolt, 6.5 Grendel mag and you are set), and round costs are dropping. The new PRS Gas Gun matches are perfect for the ARC.
10 months later this still rings true. 6mm ARC just broke through the $1/rd barrier
Go more in depth and talk about how certain barrel lengths and twist rates accompanied with specific bullet grains can achieve more desirable effects at longer distances while still maintaining the ability to be a fighting rifle
I wouldn't want to get hit by a 5.56 round at any range.
True, yet there is the proper caliber for the job. Just because the government tried to make it do everything doesnt mean it can. Their own studies and reports on the ground shows it limitations. Still love my 556 rifle but long distance shots need calibers good at that.
@@RiorozenThat is why 6mm calibers have come into fruition, it’s in an between round with superior BC. Our boys currently serving will need all the advantages they can get considering we’re not up against patriotic goat farmers anymore
@@jwhiskey534 6ARC really is the sweet spot
you also wouldnt want to get hit by a .22lr so idk why people even state this
@Riorozen long a good .308 semi auto can toss rounds down range pretty quickly and accurately
What I know for sure as an NRA Long Range Competitor is that I can get 80 grain Berger’s to 1000 yards nose-on from my match conditioned iron sight AR15A2, for a 94% average score. What precludes higher scores is my inability to observe 1-3 mph full value wind changes, which will displace the bullet anywhere from 10 to 30 inches using an MOA wind constant of 10. This issue however inspires marksmanship development like nothing else I’ve found and thus I’ve come to enjoy this difficult shooting sport more than other divisions of High Power Rifle Competition.
I hit a dude with an M240 (5 hits total) and he fought us for 10 more minutes. Keep hitting what you shoot at with the weapon you shoot best. Your argument (well founded) about not using 6 ARC or Grendel is exactly what I was thinking when I sold my 6.5. I miss it but I shoot so much more now.
I just wanted to tell you to keep up the good work. Of all the gun tube stuff out there, this recent run of Spr / practical precision AR is my current favorite. The Spr class video gave me new things to think about, which is kind of unusual at this point. Getting input from guys like this that have real world experience helps validate my own experiences. Prov27:12.
I have 556's and 308's in my safe. Both semi auto and bolt guns in both calibers. I shoot my 556's 3 times as much as my 308's.
If you have to ask, you haven’t tried it & you should try it. I’ve shot 5.56 out to 1,000 yards at steel & you can hear it ring the steel. That’s not nothing & would suck a lot to be shot at that distance still. Also, 22 Plinkster has a great RUclips channel with people coming out to his range once a month to shoot 1,000 yards with whatever rifle they choose & there have been shooters using 5.56, so these commenters are stupid. You will need a really good scope for those distances to really stretch out the bullet’s potential & those cost more than most high end AR-15s in the $2K range. Stop listening to people online & go test out the real range of your set ups.
I swear, I LOVE these series. The videos you do in this genre answer question's I've had for a while but cannot get real world experience like your guest has. I'm not a cool-guy! LOL
Thank you for the information
Reading all these negative comments from couch commandos who probably shoot twice a year is hilarious! Awesome work Jim and awesome content!
I have absolutely made 1000 yard hits on 36" steel plates with my 16" barreled .223 wylde rosco purebred build with 77 grain hand loads. It can 100% be done with ease if you know what you're doing. 20 mils of adjustment on the elevation knob, breathe, squeeze, bang. A couple seconds later: ding! Yeah, everyone wants to be a keyboard expert until you bring real world experience to the table and prove them wrong. Great video, guys. 👍
Nobody is saying that it can't be done. The argument is ease and effectiveness. Serious question: what would you rather shoot in a 15 mile an hour wind at 1K yards? A 77 OTM or a 130gr Berger?
@@terrencecox3748 Then theres the economic question. How long can most ppl shoot 130gr Bergers to gain the same level of profficieny as the cheeper 77gr Sierras? :)
@@Dan_O_ Cost is the only issue, but it will remain the issue because the community or the military chooses to stay in one place.
But seriously, we should encourage those that are willing to spend a little more to do so. If I had a group of dudes but some of them had ARC, Valkyrie, or even Grendel, how do you think I'm going to use them?
Really stoked to see this and get Joe's perspective, solid work Jim!
I know that out to 835 yards using 262otm I can keep my rounds in a 5 inch circle year in, year out, on different ranges with my DDMk12. Lethal at that range? All I know is getting a round to the face would not be your happiest day!
Way to many people arguing the distance/lethality of the 5.56.
I know first hand that my M16A1 was deadly at 500ish yards. It's all about shot placement and yes it was possible with iron sights.
Now in my senior years my bones, muscles and eyes aren't what they used to be. So now I run with a 5.7 side arm and have my M16 clone.
223 is a varmint cartridge. Deadly up close, farther out not so much. The AR is an excellent platform though.
556 is good up to 600 yards
All of this is why I am inveting in a SPR stye 556 well said
honestly something like the mk12 or a modern analog is almost perfect for an individual rifle. it can handle pretty much any task from point blank to ~1000. and its lighter and you can carry( and afford) more ammo than a larger caliber rifle.
Finally some long range dummy shooting!!!
My experience with 556 started as a kid using 223rem for foxes, then in the Marines out to 500yds with M16A2. Now i am a custom rifle builder with my own shop and a 1000yd benchrest shooter. For a long time it was hard to get the 556nato out to 1000yd consistently. Now days with the bullets we have available like sierra 77gr smk or 77tgk, or speer 75gr tmj you can get an AR15 consistently on target at 1000yds. Then in FTR Class competition prone slow fire with a good custom bolt action with bipod and rear bag with bullets weighing 80gr to 95gr by sierra and berger you can get to be very consistent at 1000yds. However it does not retain enough energy to be a good choice for hunting or combat purposes at that range
I shoot a 6.5 grendel in prs and gas gun matches it sure helps spotting impacts passed 600 yards. I do handload and have committed to the grendel. 223 isnt horrible and works arc and grendel are just more consistent and efficient
awesome content: I am a huge fan of 5.56 & .223Rem. I just wish that ammunition manufacturers, would keep up the R&D with the 5.56 cartridge. With all of his modern case technology, propellent, and projectiles, and bimetal cases. I still think 5.56 still has allot to offer. they just haven't found that sweet spot yet. but getting closer
I hope I’m wrong but I think it’s all but tapped out.
The case capacity is going to limit pushing it faster or heavier bullets.
The bimetallic is all but out of the question because of the Saami specs and a bunch of rifles that would blow up with more pressure.
If there was more juice to squeeze the manufacturers would because it would very lucrative in both the civilian and military markets.
Great video! Joe, come to Tennessee or somewhere near it. Want to take your classes!!!
Make it happen. Fill out the form on his website
@@jimmybrodriguez will do! Thanks!
77 smk is SOOO WEAK at 1k yds! Just cuz it's possible to make hits at that range, doesn't always mean you should. Wind is the biggest issue for long range shooting, and that little bullet will drift like 6ft in a 5 mph breeze when launched at 2500 fps. And a big reason why many don't shoot .223 is because it's so hard to spot misses. Also, if you're shooting AT bad guys...be sure they can't just as easily shoot back...with something better than a short AR.
I had a patient in the hospital once that took an A zone hit in his right lung from a .22LR at around 15-20 yards. It was a shooting accident. He was ventilated in the ICU for more than a week and underwent two surgeries before he was out of the woods. So, if 5.56 is delivering a similar level of ballistic performance as a .22LR at any given range (not exactly sure what the equivalent would be) you do not want to take a lung shot. I can tell you that with certainty.
I was at K&M with a non-military buddy & he was hitting at 970 +/- yards with .223 hand loads.
I thought I was shooting well with my Barrett, humbled quickly.
I love that range! I’m a member and don’t go enough, 15 min from my house
Premium 77 grain 5.56mm is on the expensive side in my area, though cheaper that 6mm ARC. However, 6mm ARC out of 20" AR shoots flatter with less wind drift in either of the 3 available loadings. I hope the other manufacturers start producing 6mm ARC ammo. It is cheaper to shoot 77 grain 5.56mm at the moment, but it's not as good at distance.
This is where the 6mm and above cartridges come into play. 5.56 is a 300 yard and under type of caliber, and in regards to DMR type roles was meant only to be an interim stop gap. Now we see SOCOM rocking the 6.5 creed and eventually the new 6.8 if they haven’t already
Agreed. Love my 556 rifles, but they are not a battle rifle caliber. Were never ment to be
@@zack9912000 Indeed yeah no doubt 5.56 will always remain King for meme and HD purposes. But ppl forget what caliber we were using during the Korean War when Chicoms tried bum rushing our positions.. 30 Cal. Our boys currently serving needs a better caliber.
The irony of him saying “people just repeat commentary” after he stated “more deer are killed with a 22 lr than any other caliber” 😂
He’s guilty of the same thing! By the way, there is no way to qualify that often-repeated statement. The assumption and only way it *could* be true is poachers exist in large numbers, use .22lr, and kill more deer than legal hunters combined. .22lr isn’t legal for hunting whitetail, so we know there are at least 4 million deer a year killed with things other than .22 lr. We also know that around 90% of deer in the last twenty years have been killed with .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, .270 and .30-30 Winchester.
He is totally right
This topic was debated in a garand thumb video when he had Kevin Owen's and another gentleman there discussing their fighting rifle set up. Kevin Owen's proceeded to say something to the effect "and idk where the whole 5.56 ain't enough came from cuz I've shot alot of guys with the 5.56" as he's laughing his ass off. I'd trust his judgment over any RUclips comment section warrior. That dude flat out laughed an essentially said all u guys that don't think it's capable are complete morons cuz every dude he's shot with it no longer sees their family
that was such a good episode.. he was so casual about it.
@@MH_6160 he sure was lol stone cold
Is that the green beret that said "I've killed a lot of people with 556?" In response to people saying 556 doesn't kill. Cause that was honestly sick. So many people will say 556 doesn't kill then you have people like him who have put down who knows how many terrorists be so casual about it. Are there calibers that are better tailored for long range? Sure, but I think he proved that shot placement and skill matter more
@@christ.5258 I'm not for sure what branch so I don't wanna say an sound dumb but I think that sounds right. Some sort of special forces.
@@christ.5258he didn’t say terrorists, he said people. Most of the people killed when the US military invades other countries are civilians.
All this is so true i have a 6creed and 6grendel and they havent seen the range in a year. Ammo hella expensive even though i have a decent pile to shoot its the good precision stuff im not pulling the trigger. So i rather shoot 223/556.
You’re a gentleman and a hobbit sir. Wait scholar!! I meant scholar!!!!
😭😂
Everyone keeps hyping up 6mm MAX (which I admit sounds amazing) it uses the same BCG as 5.56, you just need a 6mm barrel. Ballistics are impressive, it remains supersonic past 1300 yards....BUT even if you reload with your own brass, you'll be lucky if it only costs $1.50/per round. That round is 20yrs away from becoming as readily available as 5.56
6 max also requires metal 350 legend mags to get to the 2.30” oal when using the highest bc bullets.
Awesome video
Awesome content jimmy, i cant get enough of the spr stuff your doin as i am on this journey myself your last video literally debunked a conversation me and my Marine corps brethren were having, the drone was the icing on the cake. My only complaint is more spr content haha keep it up brotha hopefully I’ll hit that range soon, it’s the Ranch in eagle lake correct? And you had mentioned another in Waxahachie if you could confirm those for me I’ll start planning
Yup there’s a few other ranges with extended distances as well
@@jimmybrodriguez right on i live in Houston but frequent ft worth often I’ll see if i can find them, thanks man cheers
Great points being made here.
Great content
Also let’s get the comment here on kinetic energy of 5.56 at 5-600 is the same as 9mm at 25y… about 300ft lbs…. Also I love comments from people before get watch the video…
Hahahaha straight to the comments to tell you you’re wrong
And 9mm at 25yds hurts like a mofo. Absolutely lethal in the right spot
@@roberthutchinson2856 Instead start using the proper tool for the right job, if a person knows they will be making long engagements. Have the right caliber. 556 may reach a target but if you MUST stop them , you better hit the head or the heart. Even then at the distance the round is not predictable when it looses so much velocity. 5.56 is a gamble playing this game at best.
@@zack9912000 the reality is that there isnt a "right tool" for the wide variety of engagments you might run into. This was very thoroughly covered in the video.
Thank you for your content. Very saturated with bullshit newbie stuff. It’s hard for guys who actually shoot to find people who are worth what they preach. I appreciate you taking the time to share what you’ve learned and experienced through your content.
His ear pro on backwards 😂
In all seriousness great video tho! Love the content!
Good video. I see a few people didn’t watch the video or their comprehension skills are lacking. If 5.56/.223 is what I’ve got on me then that’s what gets used. Pretty simple.
There IS a middle ground here! We should not fall on one side of he other, but instead incorporate both. Let's not fight each other on this.
I'm certainly not taking away from Jim's guest here. My combative experience was fighting convicts for the Ca. Dept of Corrections.
I'm certainly not taking away from the capability of 5.56. As a CO in the '90's in California I saw first hand how nasty .223 could be. It's ability to phuck 5hi1t up was legendary!
He's 100% correct but there are still some ideas or points worthy of consideration.
* Perhaps the most important point, and what drives the thinking of many: Do we or do we not want to increase our capability at the team and/or individual level(s)? Might there be a very good reason to increase the capability (in this case range) of our mil and civ forces? Considering there have been deliveries of ARC and Creedmoor based systems to the military, it's apparent that some pockets of the military are trying to overcome what they see as shortcomings with 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.
As an addendum to the above, you should check out Quantified Performance. Peeps are certainly pushing their 5.56 guns there, but Ash Hess has also made some interesting comments on the use of 6mm and up calibers.
* 100% correct are the comments about cost. That's why many have chosen 6.5 Grendel. There is still butt loads of that Wolf stuff out there thats a lot cheaper than brass AND accurate enough for better than 500 yards (ask me how I know) with less wind deflection and much better energy on target. On top of that, Grendel WILL continue to be cheaper as you now have major powers (Serbia as an example) that are moving to the round and US manufacturers that have recently announced more offerings using it.
I might add that I can find 500 rounds of Wolf Grendel is cheaper than the same number of 77 gr OTM!
* Completely correct again (of course) concerning comparability with team mates. But is there no room for the idea of a blended or composite team structure based on rounds carried and intended usage? At the very least, wouldn't it be a good idea to encourage those that choose to go the route of a different round to continue and incorporate him or her for a specific role? And never mind that in a worst case scenario, I can use the lower on my Valkyrie, ARC, or Grendel with a 5.56 upper and 5.56 mags. Why not pack something like a 10.5 to 12.5 upper with just a dot should things go really REALLY sideways?
All the above said, I agree completely with the idea that whatever you choose, GET GOOD WITH IT!
This is the way!
So you're saying I definitely need a 6 ARC gun??! Got it!
I’ve sent my 223 loads out of my 20in AR quite consistently, even in 20mph wind gusts.
There's enough energy in a 5.56 bullet at extended range to cause the bullet to splatter against a steel target. Calculating it out, it's energy is between a .32ACP and .380ACP. Everyone thinks just about velocity, not about bullet weight. Is it the most definitive man stopper at distance? Obviously not. Will it make people stop doing what they're doing at distance? Yea.
What was the range at which you got these numbers from?
Military research has shown that yes you can hit the target but unless you get direct hits on vitals, the round isnt effective. And even then it doesn't always take the person out of the fight. Plenty of research in this people can see for themselves. 5.56 at distance simply doesnt have it consistently.
If I know i need to reach out past 300 meters its going to be 6.8 or .308 calibers
The guys that are actually shooting people at extended ranges past 300 with short barrels with 77 gr OTM are telling me it’s very effective.
@@inahurrytooften3121 It's more consistent at being effective at a distance. It is absolutely for sure a beast of a round in 5.56. MK262 is my choice that I personally run for self-defense. Yet past 300 yards, I still want a larger caliber that research has shown to be 6.8 and larger.
The reason for the move away from 5.56 to 6.8 is they need a much more effective round at distance that can punch through level 4 plates. 5.56 simply can't touch that.
Plenty of studies the military has done over the decades, and history has shown us the larger caliber 6.8 and larger are simply what is more effective for the future enemies DOD sees us going up against. We have known about the 5.56 shortcomings since the 1990s, and there have been improvements.
@@alexanderb5644 1000m doing about 1100 fps with a 68 hrn hpbt. Mv around 3000 from a 20in
More SPR stuff man. Can't get enough of it 🗿
At 4:17, when you say you have guys line up and shoot steel at extended ranges; what are the ranges? I have found that with a 16" AR, the range at which hit probability goes to nothing is about 700 to 800 yards. Past those ranges the bullet goes trans-sonic and flies all over the place. I shoot a lot of 55g ammo because its cheap and has better terminal effect than 77g inside 200 yds. 77g doesn't extend that range as much as you might think over 55g. I'm one of those guys that says if your engagements are going to be past 600yards, then you need a different platform.
I wish Canadian ammunition prices were this good. Also to add on to that in Ukraine near the end of my time there we were using 556 and it has no problem taking people at 600 that's for sure. 545 is very similar out to that range
The dishonest part of the 5.56 thing I see comes down to barrel length. Guys will say they've hit steel at 700 yards with their 10.3. With your mk12 that would be relevant. I'm still skeptical of the argument that just because you hit it, that also means you had the velocity to do it effectively.
idk about you but most people cant hit anything at 500 yards much less after getting ice picked by a 556 round in the chest at 700. that will effectively put that guy out of the fight. who cares about killing him when hes that far away.
@@DefZen343 its a big deal if it doesn't put them down. At a distance they can still be a threat. That is another target that could later kill one of your own down the road.
My biggest issue is that nobody is talking about wind!
@@DefZen343 Right? Are we really trying to engage combatants at that distance? And if we are, whey not have someone with a better system to augment the teams overall ability?
@zack991 I believe (meaning I could be wrong) that it was old Soviet thinking that an injured person is still just as good if it means the OPFOR is diminished by more than one due to people having to take care of that person.
@@terrencecox3748 guy said 10.3, so that means he is an assaulter. his main role is not a Marksman. if he has the opportunity and ability to wound or take an enemy out of the fight then why not? the video is explaining that and seems most refuse to understand that. a whole squad is not running around with SPRs or full power rifles, they are heavy, long and cumbersome in close quarters. even the ammunition will be limited by weight and most people cannot shoot powerful rifles for extended periods of time without flinching, people are acting like its better to just wait around or say you are screwed than train and make shots out to longer ranges with your fighting carbine.
The only way I’ve been able to shoot my ARC as much as I have over the last 6 months is by loading for it. Yes it’s a pain in the ass. If you don’t have a loading set up. Go 223 with some black hills or something with 77 gr and get out and shoot. Shooting 223 is better than shooting nothing! Plus it’s satisfying as hell to make shots out past 800 with a 223.
The only reason 6arc even exists is because 556 regularly showed itself ineffective beyond 400 yards in the middle east, I mean that's pretty well your answer right there with real-world data.
Good stuff. Have a link?
@@veracitysolutionsllc , I've read 3 or 4 articles on it, but most recently last fall I watched a discussion on it over on Hornadys' channel, it would be listed with 6mm ARC somewhere in the title.....the one guy discusses being contacted by the DoD looking for an ar15 cartridge that improved on the 556's terminal ballistics range, initially he recommended the 6.5 Grendal, they asked if that could be improved upon, so he went to work on it and came up with the ARC.
@@veracitysolutionsllc also read anything about the 277 fury, it’s entire development was for this reason. To defeat body armor and extend effective range.
Mk262 and 70gr tsx is another consideration
Why hasn’t any just performed a human torso sized jell test at 1000yrds? So we can get some sort of idea of how different calibers and barrels lengths perform at that distance?
We literally talk about that at the beginning of the video
@@jimmybrodriguez must’ve missed that part. Look forward to the video
@@GhettoTactical its has already been done. Hence the militarys move away from.5.56 Dod has done several different studies on the matter. With body armor technology improvements, possible wars in europe and war with china. 5.56 doesn't perform well enough. Hence the move to 6.8 which the studies have shown to be what is needed.
Defeating level 4 armor is a completely different argument aside from distance.
@@jimmybrodriguez True, yet with current fears with a war with china and possible escalating wars in Europe. 5.56 isnt able to fit those needs. On top of all the other short coming 5.56 has had at distance in afganistan.
One of the many channels reviewing the sig rifle did a ballistics test with 6.8. I will have to find the video.The SIG 6.8 non AP round is almost blowing through level 4 plates with one round. A second round would have gone through.
The military has said the plan is there would be training 6.8 ammo and 6.8 AP ammo for deployments.
I’d much rather a shorter 5.56 for 0-500 and then a 6mm or .300WM for anything past that. Why limit yourself to 5.56 when options exist? Just because you can shoot 5.56 to 7-800 doesn’t mean you should or doesn’t mean it’s the most efficient caliber to do so. I’d rather not take the chance with a slow 5.56 when I know bigger calibers can outpace it very quickly. And the training point is pretty moot. If they’re both AR platforms and you know your dope for each round then it’s literally child’s play going from one to the other. You don’t need to shoot 5k rds to get comfortable on an AR.
The whole premise is what 556 is capable of not if it’s the better option. Additionally Joe points out that most people only have 556 as an option and can’t go to something larger in which knowing what 556 is capable of is very important.
I am 100% on this train.
5.57 (depending on Barrel length) 700 and in
ELR - Extreme or Extended Long Range depending upon who tells the story.
ALL calibers are ELR capable based upon the ballistic capabilities of each caliber.
ELR 5.56 is not a bad way to train. Affordable ammo and gear.
Accurized gas guns are relatively new to the shooting world, and the ammo for them is even younger in the grand scheme of things.
The teachers that blazed this path, Rifles Only and Accuracy First are still young and relevant. Perhaps someday the magazine writers and social influencers will take note in mass. Until then, people will parrot what they've been taught.
Keep shooting.
Great video and comments. Do a search on utube for "5.56 & .308 vs 5 gallon water jugs at 300 yards" for great visuals of what the cheap 77Gr OTM can do at 300 yards. Is it the best at distance? Nope, but it gets the job done for most per the ballistics calcs, real world results, shot placement, fundamentals etc.. And my whole thesis is cost, how much can the average person spend on each shot? For me at least being a reloader and new LD shooter I won't pay over .75 per round while I learn. Btw on the East coast my range stops at 300 yards lol
All these guys that make negative comments about 5.56 shoot on a bench aiming at ballistic gel. I’m a former SDM and was issued a MK12 and I’ve engaged targets a 700-800 and the 77gr dropped the target no problem.
We shoot out to 600M with 556n at PRS Gas Gun Matches . They hit the steel prettt hard thats for sure .
I have been using 6ARC since the get go . I freaking love the 6ARC . Its chepaer than 6.5CM or 6CM thats a fact . Its also not a barrel burner unlike some others.
6.5G is what id get if i was on a budget and wanted a little but more ass behind the bullet . You can get 100g FMJ for pretty cheap . 6ARC there is 0 range ammo . 6ARC is all performace ammo .
My 12.5 6ARC is my favorite upper to shoot . That little suckee bangs steel super hard at 600m .
I bought the 6ARC for dual purpose . I wanted to have Shorty AR15 capable of 600m and i also wanted practical Deer / Hogg slayer .
Ive heard Frank Proctor say they had 0 issues with their 14.5s and Mod H going out 700Y for terrorist dirt naps with MK262 MOD 1..
Couldn't agree more about ARC and Grendel. When considering a longer range alternative, ARC was my first choice. But then I discovered that Wolf 100gr was plentiful so I chose Grendel. Not as flat a shooter as ARC for sure, but versatile as hell. I have 7.62x39 for hunting, but i've taken the Grendel out. Check out Carpe Sus for Grendel hog destruction!
@@terrencecox3748 6.5G 300Y ans in has the 6ARC Beat . Anything after 300 the 6ARC starts to pull away but not by all that much .
I still might build out BA 12.5" Hanson 6.5G Upper just because of the FMJ ammo .
@@seanwhite304 There is tons of Wolf Grendel out there. Go get it! If that was the same of ARC, that's what I would've built.
I know 2 individuals shooting 77gr Sierra Match grade at 778 yards hitting cans, 20 inch barrel
69gr out of 20” barrel at over 500 yards still goes through and opens up prairie dogs. So I am fine hitting soft tissue with it at distance.
I think it is
I have the same theory. In the moment you have to use what you have. Is 556 the best for extended distance no. However your probably not going to go everywhere with a bolt gun strapped to your back and a bunch of ammo shoved up your ass. Kind of tough to fit with all your big heads already up there. Most people have a 556 on hand all the time. So the fact that you can use it for close stuff and in tiny confined spaces easy and yet stretch it out to 1000 if you had to or needed to is awesome. Even if the ballistics at that distance are the same as a 22lr who cares. Its what you have in the moment. If someone breaks into your house and your closest gun is a 22lr sitting on your table are you not going to use it because its a 22lr or are you going to grab it because its the best tool for the situation due to it being what is available at the time.
The biggest downfall of that cartridge was when the military opted to use shorter barrel as in a carbine. That cartridge was initially designed for a 20 inch barrel to attain the proper velocity for the bullet to do what it was designed to do. putting it in a 24 inch will get more speed Along with using heavier bullets. And while not being ideal, that will go into flesh at 1000 yards, not something you’re gonna laugh about.
A key component to shooting 223 Remington out of the AR15 platform is matching the correct bullet weight to their corresponding twist rate. Was the basic AR15 designed for long range shooting?? I doubt it as the M16 was not designed for long range. Those are just my thoughts, based on being issued the M16A1 from 72 to 92.
@richardoliver1468 - Re: "Was the basic AR15 designed for long range shooting?? I doubt it as the M16 was not designed for long range. Those are just my thoughts, based on being issued the M16A1 from 72 to 92."
The AR15 began when Armalite made a play for the Army's "light automatic rifle" project in the mid-late 1950s. CONARC CO General Willard Wyman had issued the RFP - request for proposals. The project stipulated that the weapon be select--fire, of light weight and overall compact dimensions along the lines of the M-1/M-2 Carbine already in service, and it was to employ a .22-caliber projectile. Armalite had missed out on the new service rifle contract which ultimately resulted in the M-14, but Armalite head engineer Eugene Stoner and his colleague James Sullivan downsized the AR10 to fit the new project and its cartridge, what eventually became 5.56x45mm M193 55-grain FMJ/Ball.
The new weapon was to have terminal performance and lethality equivalent to or superior to the 110-grain .30-Carbine load, with an effective range to match, i.e., 250-300 yards. Later, the range spec was upped to 400 yards, and then 500 yards.
In short, the army wanted an actual assault rifle using an intermediate cartridge. The old guard military still favored battle rifles and full-power cartridges, however, and the increased range requirement was probably the proverbial bone being thrown to them. Stoner's new weapon, however, was really at its best inside 200 yards, where its wounding effects and terminal performance were at their optimum for that round.
Stoner and his design team could not rely on the traditional method of increasing ammunition lethality, of increasing the mass of the projectile. Due to the constraints set by the army and the cartridge, the bullet could weigh only so much. So, the design team pumped up muzzle velocity instead, to over 3000 fps, and designed a bullet with a crimping groove or cannelure, which would tend to promote fragmentation or disintegration of the projectile upon entering a soft target such as an enemy soldier, provided MV was high-enough (~ 2600 fps or greater). Instead of a single caliber-sized wound track, the fragmented M193 bullet acted instead like a HP or expanding round in creating multiple wound channels and extensive local tissue damage.
There was a catch, however: If the MV of the M193 bullet was not high-enough and/or the bullet did not exhibit the proper yaw or gyroscopic instability, it would often fail to fragment, much reducing the lethality of the round.
The sometimes inconsistent performance on the battlefield of the new M-16 and its ammunition was not entirely understood in the mid-late 1960s and it took some time for military and civilian engineers and specialists to unravel what was going on. But ultimately, some years later, it was learned that the performance of 5.56x45mm in combat was highly-dependent upon certain key factors - high MV, sufficient yaw, and bullet design, to name a few key parameters. Range of engagement, too.
Stoner's design was intended as an assault rifle, a weapon optimized for use in the 0-300 yard range envelope. And it largely fulfilled those requirements once its teething problems in Vietnam early-on were solved. However, as late as the 1990s, the weapon system as a whole remained very sensitive to ammunition design and type being used, and the results obtained on the battlefield. Most-famously in the Battle of the Black Sea - the Blackhawk Down incident in 1993. In that battle, our elite Rangers and Delta Force operators watched Somali militiamen absorb multiple center-mass hits with M855 62-grain green-tip - and yet stay in the fight.
One would think that If there's anything a grunt needs, it is a weapon and ammo capable of putting the enemy down and keeping him down. When an infantryman shots an enemy combatant he darned well wants the guy to stay shot, right? I was never a ground-pounder but it must be very frustrating not to have complete faith in your primary weapon and ammo.
But thanks to amazing developments in the platform itself and its ammo, the AR15/M16 has gone places Eugene Stoner probably never imagined. Whoever thought competitors with AR15s would take over the national matches at 1,000 yards at Camp Perry? And DMs and snipers in combat are stretching them way, way out there.
Interesting topic!
6ARC, as of this post, is 1.04-1.20. cost is coming down quick.
And you can put a suppressed 300AAC upper on it, with subsonic ammo, and its a totally different rifle.
You tell em Joe!
Thr kinetic energy though
or the lack there of with whats being argued here.😂
500yds is my cut off for hunting. Target practice 1k
All good work either way
What’s the song for your intro killer beat. Love the content!
Great long range with 556 means even better skill with a tool made for long range.
I dont get what people dont understand. Get good at pushing limits on one platform makes you better at pushing limits on any platform.
WHY DOES NO ONE EVER UNDERSTAND?
Velocity / Purpose of bullet. THAT alone tells you all you need for the munition you want for what ranges you need.
Well said, Bruiser.
Most comments about the .223/5.56 come from Ignorance and what they have read that OTHERS have read and not actually hands on sending rounds down range absolutely. I’ve been shooting that caliber since 1984 and my first Introduction to the M-16A2 was 1991 and it has its limitations past 500 yards and a lot of room for inconsistency past that but it is a capable round at distance if you know how to take advantage of its usefulness. I stick with what works for me and has been the past 4 plus Decades, the .308, 30/06 and .556 and actually thought about the 6.5 etc. but soon realized they are silly and expensive for an old Broken DAV like myself lol… SF
My scar 16s sends m855 pretty damn accurately to 700 yards, probably could do it much futher but havent tried. I would not want to get hit by it at long distances.
You should get a ballistic dummy labs and shoot it 1,000 yd😊
People who talk about the 556 not being effective beyond 500 yards have not seen any real long distance range work. I have seen 22LR shot at five hundred yards and almost be effective to kill! And if a 22LR will do it, what will the 556 which is approximately 5 times the size and capacity do capacity do? On top of that, talk to any Marine, we used to shoot our A2's to 760 yards back in 90 on a regular basis. And with iron sights..
Re: "People who talk about the 556 not being effective beyond 500 yards have not seen any real long distance range work. I have seen 22LR shot at five hundred yards and almost be effective to kill!"
It's not about whether the round can kill or seriously wound at that distance, or even further, but the probabilities involved. Physics is the law: KE = 1/2 (M)(V)squared. The .224-cartridge is highly-dependent upon MV to make its kinetic energy, and even in heavier loads, that velocity begins to degrade rapidly as ranges lengthen. Since the projectiles are light in comparison to heavier larger caliber alternatives, they lose terminal effectiveness as a result.
An equally tough problem is wind. It isn't easy to shoot those light .224-caliber pills accurately in high wind at long range. Heavier projectiles, especially ones designed efficiently, cheat the wind better and are more-forgiving of wind estimation errors as a result. Can lethal hits be made with 77-grain or heavier bullets at long range? Sure, but the same shot is easier to make with a bigger, heavy projectile and that heavier projectile will do more damage when it arrives.
I admire people who can shoot those tiny pills well-and-accurately at 600 or 700 yards. I've done it and it isn't easy. The folks who do it well are very skilled. But why make it so tough in the first place? If I know I need to make a shot that long or longer, I'm reaching for a 7mm Rem-Mag (or 6.5 CM, or 338LM, etc.) every time or something along those lines. And the hits will be so regular it would get boring.
But damn, I have to admit it: It is very impressive to hit consistently at 700 yards with an iron-sighted M16. Good shooting, Marine. Ooorah.
I ask my brother about bullets and grains and he always says a well placed shot is more important
This is a shooters opinion vs a couch keyboard warrior. Anyone who shoots all the time at distances understands that being able to stretch out common calibers is massively important even more than having the perfect round for the job. When are you ever going to go super sniper soldier, pick your perfect rifle setup and know you’re going to be in a long range gunfight exclusively. I’ll take an spr any day with weapon system comparability with ar15s. Still love my bolt guns tho
Imagine someone takes a long ass screwdriver and heats it to 550 degrees with a blowtorch. Now imagine they stab you with it. That is how ineffective 5.56 is at 500 meters. It is still a nearly 600-degree piece of metal flying at 1.5x the speed of sound.
From the longer barrel lengths, a muzzle velocity of ~2700 fps with a 77 gr SMK retains about 1600 fps and a little over 450 ft/lbs st 500m; that is the velocity a .22 Mag rifle has at the muzzle but with nearly twice the mass, and the energy of a hot 9mm duty load. It might not be Thor's Hammer, but it is undeniably lethal. Given the logistical pragmatism of the 5.56 and its numerous other advantages, I struggle to see how this would not be considered effective. There may be better choices, but those choices probably don't share mags with the rest of your team or do really well at across-the-room distances. I suspect people who only shoot guns playing video games make these conclusions and then spread it as gospel on the internet.
So there is a article about this cop shooting a guy a total of I believe 14 times with a 45. And the last two shots he shot him straight in the face! He now carry’s like 240 rounds and changed to 9m. Shot placement ……. Another is watching the dude from black water sniping with 5.56 at a distance of I believe 850 yards putting dicks in the dirt!
This is why I spend 3mo deciding what I'm going to build. Trial and error sucks, but you'll never make the same mistake twice. 😂
I agree 5.56 and 7.62 for life.
.308 outdated by multiple decades
@@crispy_338 Certainly old but not outdated by a long shot.
@@crispy_338 Maybe outdated to some but still packs a punch.
@@zack9912000 When 6.5 and 6mm exist cheaply, yes its wayy outdated. It falls like a rock and cant handle the wind nearly as well as the Creedmoor calibers. Its only advantage is that its cheaper than most calibers
The is no question the 5.56 is capable and as has been said it not what you want it is what you have. However there are rifles like the British BMS CAM Rifle: AT turnbolt Built Around An AR15 Bolt Head (ruclips.net/video/PQowfY9-dZM/видео.html) a novel approach. there are international target rifle shooting associations which use the 5.56 NATO as a valid entry.
The 5.56 NATO is inexpensive to shoot and provides a shooting challenge at a far lower cost than the classic 7.62 NATO