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Requiring TC for cruise control is actually a very good design. Without that requirement, if you lose rear traction with cruise on, the rear will run away and make the situation even worse than the initial loss of traction.
Today's show was fantastic! But I think you guys missed a key aspect of rider aids: Accessibility. As an older rider with half a century on two wheels, I've got a slightly different perspective. I'm a computer programmer with a touch of carpal tunnel. Stop-and-go traffic can be a real pain. Honda's e-clutch looks pretty tempting, and I'm considering a Rekluse clutch for my '24 Tracer 9 GT+. Not everyone has 100% mobility, or even 100% access to their limbs, and allowing technology to make up for those handicaps can allow more people to get up on 2 wheels - Always a good thing. I'm also weary of government invervention in this regard. They already force this kind of things in the automotive world, TPMS, backup cameras etc. All those extra gadgets just cost more and add weight and complexity in my book. Anyway, thanks again for another great podcast!
This is a great response and I would like to add to it a little. I am also an older rider with 30+ years of riding and oddly enough I also work in IT. I have had 3 pretty major back surgeries and so long rides become a challenge for me with feeling in my fingers, but because of cruise control I am still able to happily ride around on my Tuono V4 Factory. Add in the fact that as someone barreling headlong into their 50's, my reactions aren't quite what they used to be, all the aids on the Tuono make the bike feel pretty easy to ride at elevated speeds. I understand some of the push back at the electric aids, but I feel like it is more about how they are implemented into the bikes and less about the aids themselves.
as a 30 year network engineer veteran, I feel your pain. Had my left wrist done in winter 2019-2020 and the right one in winter 2022-2023. I have ABS, Cruise Control, and heated grips on my F850GS, there's 2 modes, but I'm always in Dynamic. I have nothing on my Ducati Streetfighter 848 other than DQS (Ducati Quick Shift), which is always turned off. Adrenalin keeps you alive .
Grew up in rural and small towns, traffic was never mentally draining, and idiot drivers lost their licenses fast. Never felt threatened until riding in the big city, so many scary close calls until I lost the front end of the bike to black ice in heavy traffic. Sent the bike home to my folks, only rode it during summer vacation. I am 46. Recently got a Tricity 300 for city commuting, first time riding in the city after 15 years. First automatic transmission, first ABS, first traction control, let alone the front end just has a stability that regained my confidence to drive in city. Then I added TPMS, dash cam and rear camera (with AI blind spot detection alerts), android auto screen with a GPS display mirroring my phone. I stop at the lights, I get a rear view of the car pulling up behind me. This country dirt bike rider is living in the future. It still feels a bit odd, that despite all this technology... I still have to squint and look at tiny clear windows all over the bike to see if the fluids are full.
Highside/Lowside is my favorite "go-too" for unnecessary questions answered in a necessary way. Even the "dumb" questions make me think twice and ponder.
I have a new CB650R with the E-clutch. I think it's the perfect balance of a rider aid where you can either use it all day or simply pretend it doesn't exist. I use the clutch 95% of the time, but if I want to get lazy in traffic, it's right there for me. And I can sit up at red lights without having to get into neutral. Absolutely love it.
ABS, TC and ride modes may be considered as not required by old school purists but as a 63 yr old 50 year riding veteran I can tell you from personal and friends experience that they are not. Cruise is a luxury but man do I ever love mine!
My 0.02. Anti-Lock Brakes, cruise control, and two ride modes: rain and normal. Auto transmission is nice for some people with the desire to keep riding. Keep bikes simple and you reduce the distractions from the bike, and allows the rider to focus on the 'ride' (aware of dangers, self awareness etc.)
100% Agree. Recently switched to a Tricity 300 scooter. First bike I ever rode with automatic transmission, abs, traction control, like so much of the mental processing to ride a bike was taken away, my awareness of the road improved. But the counter to it is, I have 25 years of muscle memory to untrain... cause I have caught myself attempting to clutch, just to grab a handful of rear brake.
I like Spurge's idea at 1:46:00 about different tires and their traction, but turn it on it's head. A great test would be to get a bike with the leading edge traction control and then compare the best racing tires to the worst junk tires. Is the electronic traction control the great equalizer?
Re: Radar/Adaptive Cruise. I was on a Yamaha Demo Day this summer and ended up taking a Tracer 9 GT+ out a few times, which for $19k CAD, had radar cruise control and having thought it was only "normal" cruise control before the bike self-adjusted at one point my mind was blown. I've had the feature in my cars/SUVs for about a decade and love it, after learning and trusting its perimeters, so it was a revelation on a bike. Especially being a barebones 390 Duke owner. That one feature, along with the whole package of the bike, has me considering it against the XSR-900 I had originally planned on this coming year. That experience made me step back and really take a look at what features and experiences I want in a bike beyond just the performance, looks and general commute abilities of a motorcycle. As they say, "a luxury once enjoyed quickly becomes necessity".
Lean-angle-sensitive ABS with an IMU is I think the most significant motorcycle safety advancement since maybe the development of the helmet. I could take or leave most of the other tech, but the ability of the bike to know how far it's leaned over and adjust braking force accordingly is a huge advantage. I'm not Marc Marquez and am never going to be, and won't have the reflexes to control a front slide in a panic braking situation.
I totally get the ABS comments and appreciation I love it too. I do have one scary story from this year about why I wish my africa twin did not have ABS at all. Me and my wife do off-roading pretty aggressively two up. We were on a BDR and well into day 3 on a 18 africa twin. Im comfortable were riding maybe 20 to 35mph coming into aggressive step downs. I remember thinking right before abs took control of my front that I will have plenty of time to scrub speed before the ledge and the back was locked and slowing me but then the mother F'n front started pulsing way to early with barely any pressure. That sent us over a 4 foot ledge way faster than I wanted it too. We made the landing because I just gave up and hit the gas and pulled the handlebars toward me to soften the landing. Honestly though made me need laundry a day sooner. I hate ABS offroad but if you dont know how to stop a tuck I can really understand why you want it.
this is great episode, honestly I like tech on my bike. Just today I was returning from mechanic and it snowed so the roads were covered in that snowy mush I had my bike in rain mode, TC on, ABS on. I still got some slides, but never come close to laying it down. I'm not sure if I would make it without these tools.
obviously adaptive CC ist not for lane splitting, wtf ^^....it´s for long highway stints, where you don´t change lanes and you can just leave it and go a long way without any inputs
My first bike didn't have ABS, and I also had a fun fish tail moment. It was on wet paint between two cars as I was lane splitting to a stop at an intersection. My other fish tail moment was on a later bike (2017 CBR1000RR), except it was caused by quickshifting into first coming off the freeway, so I wound up accidentally backing it in on the offramp. Apparently the base model of the 2017 doesn't have a slipper clutch, although it does have other electronic aids. Maybe the aids helped, but I think a slipper clutch is worth mentioning for high compression bikes, since engine braking can easily lock the rear wheel. Since I didn't crash either time, the experiences actually helped me feel more comfortable on the bike. I knew that in theory motorcycles are self-correcting, especially if the rear slips, but it was good to experience it first hand. It would have been even better if I had done it in a controlled environment, like you guys mentioned.
I have locked my front brake numerous times. But it was always intentional attempts. The last time was testing new brake pads. I have never dropped doing this because I release as soon as I feel traction loss. I am glad I did it in the past because it gave me a good feel for my brakes and I can stop a bike very fast with progressive braking.
Loved the podcast, I have been riding for 33 years. I believe the person who wants to ride a motorcycle are the ones who love them and would go any extend to learn how to ride it and learn all techniques. Even for them to get a license they have to learn the basics of clutch, breaking and throttle to pass the test.
Recently did a refresher safety training and on the emergency braking exercise (starting at around 30-40 mph) none of the 8 riders activated ABS on the first run. It's really useful to try it out on ones bike (in controlled conditions) and feel how hard you need to brake to actually get to that point. And then, as stated, it's very useful to get the feel of the ABS kicking in and not letting go. Just ABS it to full stop, and appreciate the technology that we have nowadays.
For me it would be 6 axis IMU for leaning abs and traction control (that can be turned off and stays off when restarting the bike), rear radar, and cruise (With or without radar). Not really interested in non manual transmissions or any other nonsense.
So everything besides an automatic transmission. Also i have to say, i've ridden the BMW automatic and when you use it in semi automatic mode it feels just like changing gears with a quickshifter. If i had that kind of money and was going to buy a GS anyway i would get the automatic. Slow speed is so amazing without clutch
Funny how you label certain things “nonsense” but what you like is perfectly ok. Pretty sure if you are counting your axes, your choices could easily be nonsense.
My second bike was Kawasaki Vulcan 900 classic. No ABS. Once I was cruising and a car covered a corner and a another car came turning from the blind spot and I didnt see it. In panic I squished both brakes. Both wheels blocked, screeched, the bike kept going forward but was able to not hit the car, the bike was moving side ways as I brake and when I cleared the car I released both brakes. Didnt knew back then about not just releasing them in a go, but somehow it all worked out, once the wheels started spinning the bike got straight up in an instant. That was as scary because it was a jolt. Had to stop and calm myself down cause I was shaky. My current Street Triple handles braking cool as a cucumber. I am not very friendly of electronics but I do know they DO help. I just think we are entering the way TOO much electronics in bikes.
5th Gen VFR had linked brakes both ways, front did a little rear, and rear did a little front. However Honda did linked brakes back as far as the GL1200 GoldWing. It was different, the rear applied the front right caliper. The front did just left front.
My first and only road bike is 20yrs old, and the most advanced feature is that it’s fuel injected. My wife, on the other hand, loves riding but knows her limits due to size and hand function (former pet groomer). She loves the 50cc scooters we have for around town, and the big bike she wants is a Rebel 1100 DCT. It fits her short size, it can go highway speeds, and the operation is tailored to someone like her perfectly. Well worth the investment in the technology, I’m looking forward to riding next to her in the coming riding season.
1:24:00 this is pretty much what I did with shifting up and down gears in my Dodge Charger, when I was very new to operating gears. Id just watch and feel when it would shift and try to play around with it. Knowing the system would take over if I let revs get too low was nice too
My CBR250R has the ABS with linked brakes. Really smart system. When you apply the back brake, it applies one of the 3 pistons on the front brake disk. Really clever. Never had a panic brake lockup, it's not possible. BTW, I love Zack's story of riding a BMW off of a cliff! LOL!
I think rider aids like e-clutch and dct can be great for new riders to develop other important skills first without having everything thrown at them at once. As a kid my first motorcycle was a twist and go 50cc dirt bike, then I had a 70cc Honda 3 speed with no clutch, then I got a bike with a clutch. By that point, I had a good grasp on riding and shifting and could just learn how to use a clutch. You're essentially giving this option to adults. New riders can focus on other basic skills, like braking, cornering, accelerating, and monitoring traffic while riding safely. Once those skills are honed they can move on to another motorcycle and can just focus on operating the clutch or shifting because all the other skills are there.
Unfortunately it usually takes some higher displacement stuff for people to stop underestimating low CCS. I'm only on my 2nd bike and still think my ninja 250 was one of the most fun things I've ever rode
@@yuriteixeira5816 The fun part usually comes with the low weight and small displacement bikes tend to be light (exactly same with cars btw). Even in this very episode Zack says they've been doing stuff they probably shouldn't on big and heavy GS 1250s. And later on they praise the electronics on those bikes. The writing is on the wall. You mostly need that electronic brain to manage the weight and to handle the power. In the same situation on a CRF 300, they'd probably be just fine without the gadgets.
@@Staromil I completely understand and agree As far as cars go I used to have a Miata and now have a 335is as a daily. Bigger turbos, meth, e85 etc and probably like 550whp But the 113hp when new Miata is the car I will always prefer to drive
loved my Honda DCT...like Porsche PDK with actual gears not hydraulic tranny...never stalled off-road and fast off the line in traffic. Perfect. I also had the foot shifter so it was basically a clutchless transmission.
I ride a sv650n from 2006 is my first bike for 10 months, I rode it in storms and even now in 30f -1c I used to ride racing bycicles once you brake too hard you high side, and it helped me prepare for a non abs bike, I am glad I am learning how to use a old school bike, but my next one will have abs. is just saver, better save than sorry.
52:45 Counterpoint : Smaller bikes do most of their sales in "less developed" countries, and they are the premium "big bikes" there. Road conditions are less than perfect and they never ship with quality tyres sometimes even offroad/onroad hybrid tyres. When you combine that with an inexperienced rider, having ride modes and TC settings absolutely makes sense.
Great show, only thing I have to say, auto trans bikes or auto clutch bikes can actually give new riders one less thing to have to focus on and can potentially be safer because more of their attention can be used for other things. Also, those types of motorcycles can make them more accessible to people with disabilities who could otherwise not be able to ride.
Great podcast. Just one comment. I am an experienced rider since the 80s, but time has caught up with me. My hands are failing me and i plan on switching to a DCT or Eclutch soon. But all i hear is about people afraid to learn the clutch. I think its worth mentioning sometimes rider aids arent just for new riders but for people with limitations.
I definitely agree with the point you should feel abs before you actually need it. The day I bought my 2016 BMW R1200RT Police bike at auction I ended up having a car pull out and I felt abs for the first time in that moment. I wasn’t quite sure what to expect but it definitely saved my butt.
My first so called big bike was a GPZ 550 loved that thing, no rider aids, but carbs icing was a nightmare. My first bike with rider aids was probably my VFR800 ABS & linked brakes, which i liked especially the linked brakes which gave that added confidence. Other than that it's never really been an issue, my current bike is a Tiger 850 sport, which has few riding aids. The Tiger 900 was an extra £2000 for extra aids I didn't really need, for the riding I do. I don't ride in the winter, so I don't need heated grips/seat. Don't really need a quickshifter for an adv bike. Cruise control could be an advantage, but I'd want an adaptive one, which isn't an option.
Interesting comment about quick-shifters off-road . Now I am talking about ADV bikes here.. First of all I believe that clutch control/mastery is absolutely essential. This is a fundamental. So initially I agreed about not using quick-shifters off-road. But then after constant experimentation I find for example on a low traction surface uphill, using the quick-shifter lends itself to a really nice way to get wheel speed matched shifts potentially reducing loss of traction if you fumble the shift. The quick-shifter can really help maintain traction on the ground. Using these tools to their strengths can be helpful.
I liked the first hour, then I zoned out when you guys just started going off topic about using the clutch to gatekeep. One rider aid I desperately want is adaptive headlights, I can't see jack when I do any turning at night.
Though you covered it a bit, the question I thought you guys would dive deeper into on ABS, is mistakes made when it is at a setting you did not expect. In particular, when you think you have it and you don't, with Zack's story being a good example. What is interesting (and painful in my experience too) is the number of avenues and scenarios that can place a rider in this somewhat dangerous position whether it be an off road mode that disables rear abs or if you just turned it off. Also, how unfamiliarity with a particular bike can lead a rider into this position. In my case, if I had just messed around and familiarized myself with the modes in the dirt for 30 min on my very new to me 2016 gsa, I would def not have highsided it riding like an asshat on an unfamiliar VT dirt road. Enduro pro, on trailmax missions, on an overcooked slimy declined off camber corner while thinking you have rear abs in play, when you don't=a spectacular aerial display of a gsa and super hero woods dive for the rider :) While not a very dignified exit, I still managed to ride it outa there with the help of roadside streams to keep the radiator full...Similarly, I about biffed it from traction contol kicking in when riding off of a tall curb. The throttle choppped abruptly at the worst possible moment in the maneuver about sending me over the bars. Pretty steep learning curve if you grew up without it, and still a potential hazard moving from one bike to another if somewhat familiar with the tech.
My bike costs around 4000 usd, has heck ton of rider aids, like ABS, cornering ABS, cruise control, Lean sensetive TC(too intrusive at any ride mode), 5 ride modes, automatic headlamp, bi- directional quickshifter, Adjustable suspension, TPMS, Bluetooth connectivity(hopeless). and ride by wire. does not need but some are useful like CC and ABS, TC is fine, gentle throttle on general road it does not kick in.TPMS is great to have an eye on pressure all the time.
Regarding adaptive cruise control. I split lanes most of the time (lovely CA!) but I don’t see myself doing it with cruise control on 😅 and to Ari’s point: yes, I love to do my road trips on twisty backroads, but then there sections where the only thing that makes sense is an open freeway. To be able to relax a bit before going back to twisties by using cruise control is great. I have a 30-year-old bike and my cruise control is analog :) but I appreciate it when it allows me to relax my right hand.
Ktm 1290 adventures as of 2015 the adaptive suspension arleast in the shock completely replaces the shim stack. It only has one and all the progressive dampening comes from the adaptive suspension and its alittle slow. These bikes benifit a lot with a progresive shock spring to make up for it.
I have a rider aid recommendation. Videos of proper cornering technique come to my feed frequently. If riders crashing in the corners is such a big problem, maybe a bit of technology for the front of the bike like backup cameras that show the trajectory and project where you would end up if you stayed on the speed and lean angle so silly squids don’t ride into guardrails or off cliffs could be useful. I don’t want it to intrude (if the rider is determined to ride off the cliff, the bike won’t stop them) but at least a feedback or warning might be useful. To be clear, I think it’s absurd to think that some riders need this,but for all the videos made on this platform on this topic, there must be a need for such a thing.
Problem with that is where the screen would be located. If it’s on the bike then that tech would be encouraging you to look in a bad direction. One of the main reasons people crash in curves is because they’re not looking in the correct space. Your solution would exacerbate the problem, not fix it.
Something I would like to see happen in the future is electronically adjustable sizing. Like moving the seat up or down, the pegs up down forward backwards, the handlebar, etc.
We had this discussion with my coworkers who, like me, have 30+ years riding both dirt and street. A couple of the guys have their kids transitioning to riding street bikes as well as dirt so they wondered out loud if those "skills" of threshold braking and managing wheelspin that they learned on the dirt would atrophy as they do more street riding on bikes with ABS and traction control. We had no frame of reference as all four of us have at least one "daily rider" that has none of the rider aids so we still ride every bike on the street like we are the only rider aids. In the end we will find out as one of the kids took his street bike off to college and has missed both family off-road outings this year. I know I have not regularly ridden dirt in 28 years but those rare times I am on something more challenging than a groomed gravel road the old muscle-memory kicks and I ride my street bike like a fat enduro kicking the rear out with the rear brake.
I think the thing that they’re making progress on maybe faster than people have noticed that might get crazier in the future is the imu. Take wheelie control. I think the first to really let you play with a clutch up wheelie without having to turn it off is the R1. Now you have the current MT-09, Duke 990, and 698 Mono that have way more room to play. The S1kRR and Panigale is letting you safely back into corners. Is it possible we get to a point they can prevent a high side or completely prevent you looping out or going over the bars, while also letting you push to the limit? What else can they let you get away with without turning off traction control? That is something that is a current technology being really pushed in cars and for quite some time now with drift modes, launch control, line lock. They’re all these systems you can use and you’re not holding down the tc button for 10 seconds to shut everything off.
Since we have winter for almost 6 month , every spring I take the bike ( once inspected) to a empty parking lot and do emergency stop , just to remember the feel and ABS usage... My brain then remember the feel and the distance. I drive a Can-am Ryker , CVT no clutch or sifting , nice in the city ... but no play anywhere else ... but at my age its quite nice. I use to ride older bike since I am older bike Kawa 100/1976 and a dozen of other, last one Honda 650CX ( not turbo) and was 23 year old , but I just miss it a bit but not much. I guess I am going shopping for an Honda E-clutch 650 since as an older city driver, it give me a better feeling in traffic.... reduce my attention clutching is an issue now......
Something I wanted to throw out about the idea that modern ABS systems have gotten very good is that it's sometimes only true on a company's top of the line bike. My 2022 MT-07 has pretty good ABS but no IMU so it will NOT let me float the rear tire like you talked about, at least not on a flat surface. I can sorta get it to lift if I'm coming over a hill but I did a trackday with it and ABS kicked in every time the rear tire lifted when I knew my tires had plenty of grip and were up to temperature.
The argument about barrier to ride and automatic transmissions is, at least partly, a sign of the times. I can still remember when having synchromesh on all 3 (!) gears in your car made you a bit of a wuss, as if not learning to double-clutch and rev-match perfectly to avoid crunching on downshifts meant you'd be a less aware driver, less in tune with the vehicle and what it was communicating to you. Now, 6 or 7 gears with full synchro - assuming you could find a manual trans at all in your preferred brand and model of car - is _de rigueur,_ and no one thinks it necessarily makes you less of a driver. I do understand where the argument comes from and it probably does have some effect in that way, but once the new tech is available, there's really no going back. PS: I would also add that, while an enthusiast _might_ eventually learn clutch control even when his/her bike didn't actually require clutch lever usage...but I find it to be an extreme rarity. I've known diehard gearheads that got their license in an automatic car because it was easier and faster to get mobile...and while they talk a good story about the future, they nrarely do actually learn to use and/or become proficient with a clutch, as they will always revert to what the are used to. Learning to double-clutch up and down the gearbox at high revs (my car only had around 40hp when new), along with terribly weak drum brakes front and rear...it was like being tossed into the deep end of the pool. It was difficult, and I crunched cogs a fair bit at first. But I had little choice, it was _necessary_ to learn if I was going to be independently mobile, and having to do it every day for my commute meant I got good fairly quickly. if I'd had the option of driving an auto, the incentive to put in that much effort wouldn't have been there, and I no doubt would never have become proficient with that old, recalcitrant gearbox.
I have a Versys 1000 with a quick shifter. I rarely use it because it is not as smooth as I would like. When I use the clutch lever to shift it takes so little movement to initiate a shift that it makes me think that it is electronically controlled too.
Moto Guzzi had linked brakes in the 80s, and likely before that. Foot brake activated rear and 1 front disc; lever did the other front disc. I remember it being pretty good.
As a gen 3 MT07 rider……. What are electronic rider aids? I am next level let me be a dumb dumb and pulled the abs fuse for “wheelie” dumb reasons! I can appreciate rider aids, but there is something so satisfying about the direct connection you get from a cable throttle and no modes! I wanna be a hooligan, I bought a hooligan bike!
My '22 Goldwing is the first mc I've had with TC, ABS, and linked brakes. It's definitely makes me a better rider than I am. I have so much more control and I'm able to take some riding more aggressively. Once, I missed a curve and slammed on both brakes upright. Surprisingly it wasn't an 'OH SHIT!!' moment. I had complete control, came to a complete stop quickly and my first thought was, 'How did I miss that curve?'. I love the new tech bikes have.
There are at least a couple of guys who ride Harleys at Hallett (near Tulsa), including one who rides a bagger. It's fun. It's especially funny when they pass you on the outside.
Haven’t watched a minute yet but I’ll say ABS (switchable) and LED lights are a definite win. Everything else… a cool bonus but I don’t really need or value.
For me ABS is a must, and things like slipper clutches, cruise and quickshifters (these should be standard on any bike with throttle by wire honestly) are a nice bonus. I don't care about having a bike powerful enough for traction control and rider modes to be useful, it feels like on most bikes they're there just to pad out the spec sheet. I learnt to ride on a MT-07, which shaped what features I do and don't care for probably. It's a simple bike with no rider aids beyond abs, and so I don't care for those. My friend learnt on a Trident and for him having a slipper clutch is a must, while I've been doing fine without it the past year I've been riding. I do wish I had learnt on a bike without abs honestly, or atleast wish I was taught how to do progressive braking instead of being told to squeeze the brakes as hard as I can and let abs do the rest. A bit weird considering most riders here still ride bikes that don't have it.
The reason cruse control can not be activated with tc off is if you were on a wet oily road the cc will hit the throttle to maintain speed it could spin out of control. I had it happen in a car going over a bridge the iced before the road. The cc nailed the throttle and I started to spin.
Probably the biggest problem with early traction control, and stability control systems is the poor communication about how to use them by the manufacturers of the vehicles. A lot of journalists got the wrong impression of the systems actual capabilities, because manufacturers wouldn't properly reset the systems, and explain how to reset them to the Journalists. When you combine that with humans experiencing something new, and forgetting to turn off the systems before trying to do a burnout, the sytems would get taught that the driver doesn't know how to regulate the throttle, opperate in an extreme "mode", and shut things down abruptly and punitively. If the systems are properly reset, and the driver trains the vehicle that they have relevant throttle/steering control, the systems are essentially imperceptible, save for the flashing light(s). They will allow tire spin and mild sliding too.
Enjoyed the discussion, wish you guys had gotten a little bit more into the weeds on the incorporation of IMUs for lean-sensitive ABS and traction control, and whether those are worth it
Great video as usual. Personally, I have no interest in rider aids, but I think Manufactures have caught on to the fact that the main deterrent for most people is complexity. It's for this reason that here in North America manual cars are almost non existent. During the pandemic, when everyone wanted to get out and be free, here in Canada there was a huge surge in those Can-Am road Ski-Doo things, because they are easy and less intimidating. (Lower license fees and not needing to take a course also helped.) But it shows there is potential market if it were easier. Conversely, in the EU everyone drives stick and motorcycles have always been more popular/abundant. Now, with sales dwindling they are abandoning old ideas and reaching out to whoever they can. If it can keep the sport alive I'm all for it! However, I can't help feeling that the fact it was hard weeded out those who probably shouldn't be riding in the first place. I guess we'll leave that up to Darwin going forward.
For manufacturers, its mostly cost. Like ABS and traction control were regulatory, once you have to add it for say the EU... its cheaper to just add it to all of them and cost reduce through volume rather than skewing models. They won't add anything that will drive up cost of bikes, because bikes are meant to be cheap and affordable options to cars... not the price of a small car.
The car market is going towards automatic fast though here in Europe, most sold vehicles are some type of hybrid so always automatic. More and more young people are getting a cheaper license which only allows you to drive an automatic car.
FTR the Voge 900 dsx has radar cruise, also has blindspots and rear radar, on board cameras etc - 9k, let that sink in, 9k and it is basically the bmw f900 with every single extra that can be found but for 9k
17:02 I started on a Suzuki C50. That bike has a drum rear brake that has two modes, useless and locked. I locked up the rear on it all the time. It got to where I would actually do it intentionally just to make the bike fishtail.
I love manual bikes.. Thats why I ride a 1990 R100 Paris Dakar.. And I love new tech, my winter "bike" is a Yamaha Nmax 125.. TC and abs.. -29°C last winter and lots of snow.
I wish all riders could learn on dirt bikes before moving to the street. Not fire road dirt bike riders, but local hair scrambles and Enduro event type riding. These folks make for much, much better street riders.
As a long-time rider and new owner of an R1300GS with ASA, I'd love to hear the group's opinion on this system. There is no clutch lever, but it's not a DCT and relies on servos as some of the other systems mentioned. I really like it so far, but my intentions are for touring mostly. I can see that it may be detrimental if you want to go off road a lot. Curious what you guys think about it.
I started riding on the road in 1982 on a 1976 Suzuki AP50 (Colt?). The first time I encountered any rider aids was 2016 on a new Ducati Monster 821 (50th birthday present to myself). New riders need 100% total control of everything, no 'rider aids', it's the only way to find out what they can, and can't, get away with (if it hurts, don't do it).
Not against anti lock brakes, but personally have never felt I needed it, or have I ever activated it on the bikes I have that are equipped with it. I do feel it should be able to be turned off for times I don't want it. I love cruise control though since my hand goes numb when riding at steady speeds for more that five minutes.
using a non abs sv650 from 2006 I did slide my back tire two times in the 10 months first time on high way when a car suddenly had to brake same situation as Zach, I felt the back tire wanted to swing, luckily was able to keep it up right and then put my foot down, second time at a roundabout suddenly a car came on I had to brake and I slide couple of meters always fun times for the heart hehe
New rider here. If you haven't done one already, can y'all do an episode on motorcycle fitness? What stretches/exercises to impore riding and preventing injuries.
I may or may not have unintentionally backed a Honda Helix in. Which, that even has a rear drum brake. Also, have to admit I was thinking Rebel 1100, as that's a parallel twin 270 degree cruiser. Totally missed the actual answer.
Well, kinda makes sense. Porsche is owned by VW, who also owns Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Ducati. Performance and higher end appeal are a large part of nearly half their lineup.
I bought an R7 precisely because it only had ABS (no TC or anything else). I just need the safety net of being able to slow down quickly enough. Speeding up faster is self-dependent so the onus is on me. The only times I pull the ABS solenoid on that bike is on track, because as Ari said: a skilled rider, on dry warm tarmac, anticipating a braking marker can outbrake ABS, and on track I do. On the street? No flipping way in hell!! ABS has saved my bacon twice in 4 years because of cars cutting me off giving me just an extra split-second to adjust braking and slow down enough. And that is with a super conservative Japanese ABS programming, not a finely tuned European ABS calibration.
1:43:00 You don't ask "users" for the answer, you ask for the problem... this is a common misunderstanding if you aren't educated within the field of research. The reasoning in this section is flawed due to this, as a company you find a problem and an opportunity and you solve it for your users, you don't let them solve their problems. “If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse.” This classic Henry Ford quote is often misinterpreted, the key opportunity in that quote is "faster" and then you can solve that in hundreds of ways where a car is one of them.
I have a ‘15 KTM 1190 Adventure and I found the traction control to be way too intrusive, even on the road. I ended up buying the dongle Spurgeon mentioned because I got sick of turning TC off every time I started the bike. In first and second gear, that TC would kick in pretty abruptly under semi-hard acceleration. Super annoying. I assume it’s better on later generations, but mine stays off unless I’m in the rain!
The Honda Super Cub doesn't make you use a clutch lever, and it's the most sold motor vehicle in history right? Because Honda made it accessible for delivery drivers and people wearing skirts and so it's become a staple for decades now precisely because it has designed accessibility features. It's had a huge impact and gotten a lot more people on 2 wheels, and can also be a middle ground for people who don't want to have to learn both clutch management and how to ride at the same time. The all-or-nothing view of learning the new activity instead of being able to spread it out with less pressure.
This will be a very derisive episode but no topic will draw more flack the the "Dude Bro" look Spurge is sporting today! lol Hey, nothing wrong with liking graphic novels. Take "Watchmen" for example fantastic graphic novel and one my favorites. "Steeling Speed" like "Watchmen" might make a great movie. "Scourge" I think Zack has seen "The Green Hornet" one too many times lol! IMO anti-lock brakes are nice to have but not a deal breaker. I also think its better to learn on a non abs bike. My bike has unturnoffable T.C. and the one time it kicked in I thought my throttle or engine were malfunctioning. Took me a second to realize the nanny had kicked on and the bike was fine. All that ranting from Spurge makes my glad I have a fully adjustable air suspension. To Spurges point about manual transmissions I saw a spare tire cover on a Wrangler that a gear shift pattern and read "Millennial Anti-Theft Device" lol funny, sad, but true! Never stuff to stop talking about and never a definitive answer = job security lmao! NO idea what engine that was but in all fairness I've never heard an R.E. 650. Yes indeed Old Sports another fine episode. See you in 2!
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Requiring TC for cruise control is actually a very good design. Without that requirement, if you lose rear traction with cruise on, the rear will run away and make the situation even worse than the initial loss of traction.
Today's show was fantastic! But I think you guys missed a key aspect of rider aids: Accessibility. As an older rider with half a century on two wheels, I've got a slightly different perspective.
I'm a computer programmer with a touch of carpal tunnel. Stop-and-go traffic can be a real pain. Honda's e-clutch looks pretty tempting, and I'm considering a Rekluse clutch for my '24 Tracer 9 GT+. Not everyone has 100% mobility, or even 100% access to their limbs, and allowing technology to make up for those handicaps can allow more people to get up on 2 wheels - Always a good thing.
I'm also weary of government invervention in this regard. They already force this kind of things in the automotive world, TPMS, backup cameras etc. All those extra gadgets just cost more and add weight and complexity in my book.
Anyway, thanks again for another great podcast!
Great addition
This is a great response and I would like to add to it a little. I am also an older rider with 30+ years of riding and oddly enough I also work in IT. I have had 3 pretty major back surgeries and so long rides become a challenge for me with feeling in my fingers, but because of cruise control I am still able to happily ride around on my Tuono V4 Factory. Add in the fact that as someone barreling headlong into their 50's, my reactions aren't quite what they used to be, all the aids on the Tuono make the bike feel pretty easy to ride at elevated speeds. I understand some of the push back at the electric aids, but I feel like it is more about how they are implemented into the bikes and less about the aids themselves.
as a 30 year network engineer veteran, I feel your pain. Had my left wrist done in winter 2019-2020 and the right one in winter 2022-2023. I have ABS, Cruise Control, and heated grips on my F850GS, there's 2 modes, but I'm always in Dynamic. I have nothing on my Ducati Streetfighter 848 other than DQS (Ducati Quick Shift), which is always turned off. Adrenalin keeps you alive .
Grew up in rural and small towns, traffic was never mentally draining, and idiot drivers lost their licenses fast. Never felt threatened until riding in the big city, so many scary close calls until I lost the front end of the bike to black ice in heavy traffic. Sent the bike home to my folks, only rode it during summer vacation.
I am 46. Recently got a Tricity 300 for city commuting, first time riding in the city after 15 years. First automatic transmission, first ABS, first traction control, let alone the front end just has a stability that regained my confidence to drive in city. Then I added TPMS, dash cam and rear camera (with AI blind spot detection alerts), android auto screen with a GPS display mirroring my phone. I stop at the lights, I get a rear view of the car pulling up behind me. This country dirt bike rider is living in the future.
It still feels a bit odd, that despite all this technology... I still have to squint and look at tiny clear windows all over the bike to see if the fluids are full.
My bike has amazing features like electric start, efi, and lights. Modern technology!
You got the new Harley eh?
@ haha it’s a 10 year old dual sport. I’m just glad to have efi
Just like my T7 (plus abs which I like off)
@@lorenzotelleria4200 haha well played
Same for my 19 crf450l. 😂
Always enjoy the 3 of you having campfire talks about the moto industry. 🤙🏼
Highside/Lowside is my favorite "go-too" for unnecessary questions answered in a necessary way. Even the "dumb" questions make me think twice and ponder.
I have a new CB650R with the E-clutch. I think it's the perfect balance of a rider aid where you can either use it all day or simply pretend it doesn't exist. I use the clutch 95% of the time, but if I want to get lazy in traffic, it's right there for me. And I can sit up at red lights without having to get into neutral. Absolutely love it.
ABS, TC and ride modes may be considered as not required by old school purists but as a 63 yr old 50 year riding veteran I can tell you from personal and friends experience that they are not. Cruise is a luxury but man do I ever love mine!
My 0.02. Anti-Lock Brakes, cruise control, and two ride modes: rain and normal. Auto transmission is nice for some people with the desire to keep riding. Keep bikes simple and you reduce the distractions from the bike, and allows the rider to focus on the 'ride' (aware of dangers, self awareness etc.)
100% Agree. Recently switched to a Tricity 300 scooter. First bike I ever rode with automatic transmission, abs, traction control, like so much of the mental processing to ride a bike was taken away, my awareness of the road improved.
But the counter to it is, I have 25 years of muscle memory to untrain... cause I have caught myself attempting to clutch, just to grab a handful of rear brake.
My wife would not have started riding if DCT wasn't a thing. Now she's tearing up the twisties on a z900 with her friends 😂
ABS has encouraged the development of massively powerful brakes on everyday road bikes and made it easy for the average rider to use them effectively.
I like Spurge's idea at 1:46:00 about different tires and their traction, but turn it on it's head. A great test would be to get a bike with the leading edge traction control and then compare the best racing tires to the worst junk tires. Is the electronic traction control the great equalizer?
Re: Radar/Adaptive Cruise. I was on a Yamaha Demo Day this summer and ended up taking a Tracer 9 GT+ out a few times, which for $19k CAD, had radar cruise control and having thought it was only "normal" cruise control before the bike self-adjusted at one point my mind was blown. I've had the feature in my cars/SUVs for about a decade and love it, after learning and trusting its perimeters, so it was a revelation on a bike. Especially being a barebones 390 Duke owner. That one feature, along with the whole package of the bike, has me considering it against the XSR-900 I had originally planned on this coming year. That experience made me step back and really take a look at what features and experiences I want in a bike beyond just the performance, looks and general commute abilities of a motorcycle. As they say, "a luxury once enjoyed quickly becomes necessity".
My fave 3 guys in the bike industry in a podcast.
This was awesome!!!
Lean-angle-sensitive ABS with an IMU is I think the most significant motorcycle safety advancement since maybe the development of the helmet.
I could take or leave most of the other tech, but the ability of the bike to know how far it's leaned over and adjust braking force accordingly is a huge advantage. I'm not Marc Marquez and am never going to be, and won't have the reflexes to control a front slide in a panic braking situation.
I totally get the ABS comments and appreciation I love it too. I do have one scary story from this year about why I wish my africa twin did not have ABS at all. Me and my wife do off-roading pretty aggressively two up. We were on a BDR and well into day 3 on a 18 africa twin. Im comfortable were riding maybe 20 to 35mph coming into aggressive step downs.
I remember thinking right before abs took control of my front that I will have plenty of time to scrub speed before the ledge and the back was locked and slowing me but then the mother F'n front started pulsing way to early with barely any pressure. That sent us over a 4 foot ledge way faster than I wanted it too. We made the landing because I just gave up and hit the gas and pulled the handlebars toward me to soften the landing.
Honestly though made me need laundry a day sooner. I hate ABS offroad but if you dont know how to stop a tuck I can really understand why you want it.
super nice podcast - please never stop it!
this is great episode, honestly I like tech on my bike. Just today I was returning from mechanic and it snowed so the roads were covered in that snowy mush I had my bike in rain mode, TC on, ABS on. I still got some slides, but never come close to laying it down. I'm not sure if I would make it without these tools.
obviously adaptive CC ist not for lane splitting, wtf ^^....it´s for long highway stints, where you don´t change lanes and you can just leave it and go a long way without any inputs
My first bike didn't have ABS, and I also had a fun fish tail moment. It was on wet paint between two cars as I was lane splitting to a stop at an intersection. My other fish tail moment was on a later bike (2017 CBR1000RR), except it was caused by quickshifting into first coming off the freeway, so I wound up accidentally backing it in on the offramp. Apparently the base model of the 2017 doesn't have a slipper clutch, although it does have other electronic aids. Maybe the aids helped, but I think a slipper clutch is worth mentioning for high compression bikes, since engine braking can easily lock the rear wheel.
Since I didn't crash either time, the experiences actually helped me feel more comfortable on the bike. I knew that in theory motorcycles are self-correcting, especially if the rear slips, but it was good to experience it first hand. It would have been even better if I had done it in a controlled environment, like you guys mentioned.
Slipper clutch is great on my CRF300 rally!
I have locked my front brake numerous times. But it was always intentional attempts. The last time was testing new brake pads. I have never dropped doing this because I release as soon as I feel traction loss. I am glad I did it in the past because it gave me a good feel for my brakes and I can stop a bike very fast with progressive braking.
Loved the podcast, I have been riding for 33 years. I believe the person who wants to ride a motorcycle are the ones who love them and would go any extend to learn how to ride it and learn all techniques. Even for them to get a license they have to learn the basics of clutch, breaking and throttle to pass the test.
A truly fantastic episode! Loved every minute of it.
Recently did a refresher safety training and on the emergency braking exercise (starting at around 30-40 mph) none of the 8 riders activated ABS on the first run. It's really useful to try it out on ones bike (in controlled conditions) and feel how hard you need to brake to actually get to that point.
And then, as stated, it's very useful to get the feel of the ABS kicking in and not letting go. Just ABS it to full stop, and appreciate the technology that we have nowadays.
For me it would be 6 axis IMU for leaning abs and traction control (that can be turned off and stays off when restarting the bike), rear radar, and cruise (With or without radar). Not really interested in non manual transmissions or any other nonsense.
So everything besides an automatic transmission. Also i have to say, i've ridden the BMW automatic and when you use it in semi automatic mode it feels just like changing gears with a quickshifter. If i had that kind of money and was going to buy a GS anyway i would get the automatic. Slow speed is so amazing without clutch
Funny how you label certain things “nonsense” but what you like is perfectly ok. Pretty sure if you are counting your axes, your choices could easily be nonsense.
My second bike was Kawasaki Vulcan 900 classic. No ABS.
Once I was cruising and a car covered a corner and a another car came turning from the blind spot and I didnt see it. In panic I squished both brakes. Both wheels blocked, screeched, the bike kept going forward but was able to not hit the car, the bike was moving side ways as I brake and when I cleared the car I released both brakes. Didnt knew back then about not just releasing them in a go, but somehow it all worked out, once the wheels started spinning the bike got straight up in an instant. That was as scary because it was a jolt. Had to stop and calm myself down cause I was shaky.
My current Street Triple handles braking cool as a cucumber. I am not very friendly of electronics but I do know they DO help. I just think we are entering the way TOO much electronics in bikes.
5th Gen VFR had linked brakes both ways, front did a little rear, and rear did a little front. However Honda did linked brakes back as far as the GL1200 GoldWing. It was different, the rear applied the front right caliper. The front did just left front.
My first and only road bike is 20yrs old, and the most advanced feature is that it’s fuel injected. My wife, on the other hand, loves riding but knows her limits due to size and hand function (former pet groomer). She loves the 50cc scooters we have for around town, and the big bike she wants is a Rebel 1100 DCT. It fits her short size, it can go highway speeds, and the operation is tailored to someone like her perfectly. Well worth the investment in the technology, I’m looking forward to riding next to her in the coming riding season.
1:24:00 this is pretty much what I did with shifting up and down gears in my Dodge Charger, when I was very new to operating gears. Id just watch and feel when it would shift and try to play around with it. Knowing the system would take over if I let revs get too low was nice too
7:25 that toolbox come with a crankshaft?
My CBR250R has the ABS with linked brakes. Really smart system. When you apply the back brake, it applies one of the 3 pistons on the front brake disk. Really clever. Never had a panic brake lockup, it's not possible.
BTW, I love Zack's story of riding a BMW off of a cliff! LOL!
I think rider aids like e-clutch and dct can be great for new riders to develop other important skills first without having everything thrown at them at once. As a kid my first motorcycle was a twist and go 50cc dirt bike, then I had a 70cc Honda 3 speed with no clutch, then I got a bike with a clutch. By that point, I had a good grasp on riding and shifting and could just learn how to use a clutch. You're essentially giving this option to adults. New riders can focus on other basic skills, like braking, cornering, accelerating, and monitoring traffic while riding safely. Once those skills are honed they can move on to another motorcycle and can just focus on operating the clutch or shifting because all the other skills are there.
Small displacement is a great rider aid. And it's free. Actually it even saves you some money. Just sayin.
Unfortunately it usually takes some higher displacement stuff for people to stop underestimating low CCS.
I'm only on my 2nd bike and still think my ninja 250 was one of the most fun things I've ever rode
@@yuriteixeira5816 The fun part usually comes with the low weight and small displacement bikes tend to be light (exactly same with cars btw). Even in this very episode Zack says they've been doing stuff they probably shouldn't on big and heavy GS 1250s. And later on they praise the electronics on those bikes. The writing is on the wall. You mostly need that electronic brain to manage the weight and to handle the power. In the same situation on a CRF 300, they'd probably be just fine without the gadgets.
@@Staromil I completely understand and agree
As far as cars go
I used to have a Miata and now have a 335is as a daily. Bigger turbos, meth, e85 etc and probably like 550whp
But the 113hp when new Miata is the car I will always prefer to drive
Great show. Thanks guys.
loved my Honda DCT...like Porsche PDK with actual gears not hydraulic tranny...never stalled off-road and fast off the line in traffic. Perfect. I also had the foot shifter so it was basically a clutchless transmission.
Engine sound guessing game my answer is Royal Enfield int 650 with pipes
I ride a sv650n from 2006 is my first bike for 10 months, I rode it in storms and even now in 30f -1c I used to ride racing bycicles once you brake too hard you high side, and it helped me prepare for a non abs bike, I am glad I am learning how to use a old school bike, but my next one will have abs. is just saver, better save than sorry.
52:45 Counterpoint : Smaller bikes do most of their sales in "less developed" countries, and they are the premium "big bikes" there. Road conditions are less than perfect and they never ship with quality tyres sometimes even offroad/onroad hybrid tyres. When you combine that with an inexperienced rider, having ride modes and TC settings absolutely makes sense.
Great show, only thing I have to say, auto trans bikes or auto clutch bikes can actually give new riders one less thing to have to focus on and can potentially be safer because more of their attention can be used for other things. Also, those types of motorcycles can make them more accessible to people with disabilities who could otherwise not be able to ride.
Great podcast. Just one comment. I am an experienced rider since the 80s, but time has caught up with me. My hands are failing me and i plan on switching to a DCT or Eclutch soon. But all i hear is about people afraid to learn the clutch. I think its worth mentioning sometimes rider aids arent just for new riders but for people with limitations.
I definitely agree with the point you should feel abs before you actually need it. The day I bought my 2016 BMW R1200RT Police bike at auction I ended up having a car pull out and I felt abs for the first time in that moment. I wasn’t quite sure what to expect but it definitely saved my butt.
My first so called big bike was a GPZ 550 loved that thing, no rider aids, but carbs icing was a nightmare. My first bike with rider aids was probably my VFR800 ABS & linked brakes, which i liked especially the linked brakes which gave that added confidence. Other than that it's never really been an issue, my current bike is a Tiger 850 sport, which has few riding aids. The Tiger 900 was an extra £2000 for extra aids I didn't really need, for the riding I do. I don't ride in the winter, so I don't need heated grips/seat. Don't really need a quickshifter for an adv bike. Cruise control could be an advantage, but I'd want an adaptive one, which isn't an option.
No ABS on my ‘95 Daytona 1200 which is used all year round. I’m delighted the brakes are just “adequate”. Anything more and I’d be toast!
Interesting comment about quick-shifters off-road . Now I am talking about ADV bikes here.. First of all I believe that clutch control/mastery is absolutely essential. This is a fundamental. So initially I agreed about not using quick-shifters off-road. But then after constant experimentation I find for example on a low traction surface uphill, using the quick-shifter lends itself to a really nice way to get wheel speed matched shifts potentially reducing loss of traction if you fumble the shift. The quick-shifter can really help maintain traction on the ground. Using these tools to their strengths can be helpful.
I liked the first hour, then I zoned out when you guys just started going off topic about using the clutch to gatekeep.
One rider aid I desperately want is adaptive headlights, I can't see jack when I do any turning at night.
Though you covered it a bit, the question I thought you guys would dive deeper into on ABS, is mistakes made when it is at a setting you did not expect. In particular, when you think you have it and you don't, with Zack's story being a good example. What is interesting (and painful in my experience too) is the number of avenues and scenarios that can place a rider in this somewhat dangerous position whether it be an off road mode that disables rear abs or if you just turned it off. Also, how unfamiliarity with a particular bike can lead a rider into this position. In my case, if I had just messed around and familiarized myself with the modes in the dirt for 30 min on my very new to me 2016 gsa, I would def not have highsided it riding like an asshat on an unfamiliar VT dirt road. Enduro pro, on trailmax missions, on an overcooked slimy declined off camber corner while thinking you have rear abs in play, when you don't=a spectacular aerial display of a gsa and super hero woods dive for the rider :) While not a very dignified exit, I still managed to ride it outa there with the help of roadside streams to keep the radiator full...Similarly, I about biffed it from traction contol kicking in when riding off of a tall curb. The throttle choppped abruptly at the worst possible moment in the maneuver about sending me over the bars. Pretty steep learning curve if you grew up without it, and still a potential hazard moving from one bike to another if somewhat familiar with the tech.
My bike costs around 4000 usd, has heck ton of rider aids, like ABS, cornering ABS, cruise control, Lean sensetive TC(too intrusive at any ride mode), 5 ride modes, automatic headlamp, bi- directional quickshifter, Adjustable suspension, TPMS, Bluetooth connectivity(hopeless). and ride by wire.
does not need but some are useful like CC and ABS, TC is fine, gentle throttle on general road it does not kick in.TPMS is great to have an eye on pressure all the time.
Regarding adaptive cruise control. I split lanes most of the time (lovely CA!) but I don’t see myself doing it with cruise control on 😅 and to Ari’s point: yes, I love to do my road trips on twisty backroads, but then there sections where the only thing that makes sense is an open freeway. To be able to relax a bit before going back to twisties by using cruise control is great. I have a 30-year-old bike and my cruise control is analog :) but I appreciate it when it allows me to relax my right hand.
Great video best I seen ever I learnt a lot
Ktm 1290 adventures as of 2015 the adaptive suspension arleast in the shock completely replaces the shim stack. It only has one and all the progressive dampening comes from the adaptive suspension and its alittle slow. These bikes benifit a lot with a progresive shock spring to make up for it.
I have a rider aid recommendation. Videos of proper cornering technique come to my feed frequently. If riders crashing in the corners is such a big problem, maybe a bit of technology for the front of the bike like backup cameras that show the trajectory and project where you would end up if you stayed on the speed and lean angle so silly squids don’t ride into guardrails or off cliffs could be useful. I don’t want it to intrude (if the rider is determined to ride off the cliff, the bike won’t stop them) but at least a feedback or warning might be useful. To be clear, I think it’s absurd to think that some riders need this,but for all the videos made on this platform on this topic, there must be a need for such a thing.
Problem with that is where the screen would be located. If it’s on the bike then that tech would be encouraging you to look in a bad direction. One of the main reasons people crash in curves is because they’re not looking in the correct space. Your solution would exacerbate the problem, not fix it.
Cruise control is the best if you ride on the freeway any longer than like half an hour.
Something I would like to see happen in the future is electronically adjustable sizing. Like moving the seat up or down, the pegs up down forward backwards, the handlebar, etc.
We had this discussion with my coworkers who, like me, have 30+ years riding both dirt and street. A couple of the guys have their kids transitioning to riding street bikes as well as dirt so they wondered out loud if those "skills" of threshold braking and managing wheelspin that they learned on the dirt would atrophy as they do more street riding on bikes with ABS and traction control. We had no frame of reference as all four of us have at least one "daily rider" that has none of the rider aids so we still ride every bike on the street like we are the only rider aids.
In the end we will find out as one of the kids took his street bike off to college and has missed both family off-road outings this year. I know I have not regularly ridden dirt in 28 years but those rare times I am on something more challenging than a groomed gravel road the old muscle-memory kicks and I ride my street bike like a fat enduro kicking the rear out with the rear brake.
Clearly these threshold braking skills are a myth, as described by the lifelong professionals Ari and Zack's lock-em-up stories from this video.
@@jw6825 Odd, not my takeaway at all nor my experience. When you do not have ABS it is an incredible skill to maintain.
I think the thing that they’re making progress on maybe faster than people have noticed that might get crazier in the future is the imu. Take wheelie control. I think the first to really let you play with a clutch up wheelie without having to turn it off is the R1. Now you have the current MT-09, Duke 990, and 698 Mono that have way more room to play. The S1kRR and Panigale is letting you safely back into corners. Is it possible we get to a point they can prevent a high side or completely prevent you looping out or going over the bars, while also letting you push to the limit? What else can they let you get away with without turning off traction control? That is something that is a current technology being really pushed in cars and for quite some time now with drift modes, launch control, line lock. They’re all these systems you can use and you’re not holding down the tc button for 10 seconds to shut everything off.
Since we have winter for almost 6 month , every spring I take the bike ( once inspected) to a empty parking lot and do emergency stop , just to remember the feel and ABS usage... My brain then remember the feel and the distance. I drive a Can-am Ryker , CVT no clutch or sifting , nice in the city ... but no play anywhere else ... but at my age its quite nice. I use to ride older bike since I am older bike Kawa 100/1976 and a dozen of other, last one Honda 650CX ( not turbo) and was 23 year old , but I just miss it a bit but not much. I guess I am going shopping for an Honda E-clutch 650 since as an older city driver, it give me a better feeling in traffic.... reduce my attention clutching is an issue now......
Something I wanted to throw out about the idea that modern ABS systems have gotten very good is that it's sometimes only true on a company's top of the line bike. My 2022 MT-07 has pretty good ABS but no IMU so it will NOT let me float the rear tire like you talked about, at least not on a flat surface. I can sorta get it to lift if I'm coming over a hill but I did a trackday with it and ABS kicked in every time the rear tire lifted when I knew my tires had plenty of grip and were up to temperature.
The argument about barrier to ride and automatic transmissions is, at least partly, a sign of the times. I can still remember when having synchromesh on all 3 (!) gears in your car made you a bit of a wuss, as if not learning to double-clutch and rev-match perfectly to avoid crunching on downshifts meant you'd be a less aware driver, less in tune with the vehicle and what it was communicating to you. Now, 6 or 7 gears with full synchro - assuming you could find a manual trans at all in your preferred brand and model of car - is _de rigueur,_ and no one thinks it necessarily makes you less of a driver. I do understand where the argument comes from and it probably does have some effect in that way, but once the new tech is available, there's really no going back.
PS: I would also add that, while an enthusiast _might_ eventually learn clutch control even when his/her bike didn't actually require clutch lever usage...but I find it to be an extreme rarity. I've known diehard gearheads that got their license in an automatic car because it was easier and faster to get mobile...and while they talk a good story about the future, they nrarely do actually learn to use and/or become proficient with a clutch, as they will always revert to what the are used to. Learning to double-clutch up and down the gearbox at high revs (my car only had around 40hp when new), along with terribly weak drum brakes front and rear...it was like being tossed into the deep end of the pool. It was difficult, and I crunched cogs a fair bit at first. But I had little choice, it was _necessary_ to learn if I was going to be independently mobile, and having to do it every day for my commute meant I got good fairly quickly. if I'd had the option of driving an auto, the incentive to put in that much effort wouldn't have been there, and I no doubt would never have become proficient with that old, recalcitrant gearbox.
don't forget that the Ohlin's electronic suspensions have a "manual" mode where there isn't a dynamic change, can be the best of both worlds!
I have a Versys 1000 with a quick shifter. I rarely use it because it is not as smooth as I would like. When I use the clutch lever to shift it takes so little movement to initiate a shift that it makes me think that it is electronically controlled too.
Moto Guzzi had linked brakes in the 80s, and likely before that.
Foot brake activated rear and 1 front disc; lever did the other front disc.
I remember it being pretty good.
As a gen 3 MT07 rider……. What are electronic rider aids? I am next level let me be a dumb dumb and pulled the abs fuse for “wheelie” dumb reasons!
I can appreciate rider aids, but there is something so satisfying about the direct connection you get from a cable throttle and no modes! I wanna be a hooligan, I bought a hooligan bike!
My '22 Goldwing is the first mc I've had with TC, ABS, and linked brakes. It's definitely makes me a better rider than I am. I have so much more control and I'm able to take some riding more aggressively. Once, I missed a curve and slammed on both brakes upright. Surprisingly it wasn't an 'OH SHIT!!' moment. I had complete control, came to a complete stop quickly and my first thought was, 'How did I miss that curve?'. I love the new tech bikes have.
KTM toolkit - do some of the tools disappear after a while and you have to go to the dealership and pay for them to reappear?
There are at least a couple of guys who ride Harleys at Hallett (near Tulsa), including one who rides a bagger. It's fun. It's especially funny when they pass you on the outside.
Haven’t watched a minute yet but I’ll say ABS (switchable) and LED lights are a definite win. Everything else… a cool bonus but I don’t really need or value.
For me ABS is a must, and things like slipper clutches, cruise and quickshifters (these should be standard on any bike with throttle by wire honestly) are a nice bonus. I don't care about having a bike powerful enough for traction control and rider modes to be useful, it feels like on most bikes they're there just to pad out the spec sheet.
I learnt to ride on a MT-07, which shaped what features I do and don't care for probably. It's a simple bike with no rider aids beyond abs, and so I don't care for those. My friend learnt on a Trident and for him having a slipper clutch is a must, while I've been doing fine without it the past year I've been riding.
I do wish I had learnt on a bike without abs honestly, or atleast wish I was taught how to do progressive braking instead of being told to squeeze the brakes as hard as I can and let abs do the rest. A bit weird considering most riders here still ride bikes that don't have it.
You guys should do this live that would be super cool
My first road bike was a 700lb metric cruiser without abs and giant dual calipers on the front, I definitely locked that thing up a few times 😅
I'm pretty sure the reason why cruise control doesn't operate when ABS is off is because that is how the system is reading wheel speed.
The reason cruse control can not be activated with tc off is if you were on a wet oily road the cc will hit the throttle to maintain speed it could spin out of control. I had it happen in a car going over a bridge the iced before the road. The cc nailed the throttle and I started to spin.
Probably the biggest problem with early traction control, and stability control systems is the poor communication about how to use them by the manufacturers of the vehicles.
A lot of journalists got the wrong impression of the systems actual capabilities, because manufacturers wouldn't properly reset the systems, and explain how to reset them to the Journalists. When you combine that with humans experiencing something new, and forgetting to turn off the systems before trying to do a burnout, the sytems would get taught that the driver doesn't know how to regulate the throttle, opperate in an extreme "mode", and shut things down abruptly and punitively.
If the systems are properly reset, and the driver trains the vehicle that they have relevant throttle/steering control, the systems are essentially imperceptible, save for the flashing light(s). They will allow tire spin and mild sliding too.
Enjoyed the discussion, wish you guys had gotten a little bit more into the weeds on the incorporation of IMUs for lean-sensitive ABS and traction control, and whether those are worth it
Hey Spurge, did you get IDd before recording to make sure you're old enough to podcast 🤔😜😆 You look much younger without the Gen Z facial hair man 👌😁
Yes! He looks WAY younger!! I think the backwards cap also helps, a trick I use😅.
Great video as usual. Personally, I have no interest in rider aids, but I think Manufactures have caught on to the fact that the main deterrent for most people is complexity. It's for this reason that here in North America manual cars are almost non existent. During the pandemic, when everyone wanted to get out and be free, here in Canada there was a huge surge in those Can-Am road Ski-Doo things, because they are easy and less intimidating. (Lower license fees and not needing to take a course also helped.) But it shows there is potential market if it were easier. Conversely, in the EU everyone drives stick and motorcycles have always been more popular/abundant. Now, with sales dwindling they are abandoning old ideas and reaching out to whoever they can. If it can keep the sport alive I'm all for it! However, I can't help feeling that the fact it was hard weeded out those who probably shouldn't be riding in the first place. I guess we'll leave that up to Darwin going forward.
For manufacturers, its mostly cost. Like ABS and traction control were regulatory, once you have to add it for say the EU... its cheaper to just add it to all of them and cost reduce through volume rather than skewing models. They won't add anything that will drive up cost of bikes, because bikes are meant to be cheap and affordable options to cars... not the price of a small car.
The car market is going towards automatic fast though here in Europe, most sold vehicles are some type of hybrid so always automatic. More and more young people are getting a cheaper license which only allows you to drive an automatic car.
FTR the Voge 900 dsx has radar cruise, also has blindspots and rear radar, on board cameras etc - 9k, let that sink in, 9k and it is basically the bmw f900 with every single extra that can be found but for 9k
17:02 I started on a Suzuki C50. That bike has a drum rear brake that has two modes, useless and locked. I locked up the rear on it all the time. It got to where I would actually do it intentionally just to make the bike fishtail.
I love manual bikes.. Thats why I ride a 1990 R100 Paris Dakar..
And I love new tech, my winter "bike" is a Yamaha Nmax 125.. TC and abs.. -29°C last winter and lots of snow.
I wish all riders could learn on dirt bikes before moving to the street. Not fire road dirt bike riders, but local hair scrambles and Enduro event type riding.
These folks make for much, much better street riders.
As a long-time rider and new owner of an R1300GS with ASA, I'd love to hear the group's opinion on this system. There is no clutch lever, but it's not a DCT and relies on servos as some of the other systems mentioned. I really like it so far, but my intentions are for touring mostly. I can see that it may be detrimental if you want to go off road a lot. Curious what you guys think about it.
I started riding on the road in 1982 on a 1976 Suzuki AP50 (Colt?). The first time I encountered any rider aids was 2016 on a new Ducati Monster 821 (50th birthday present to myself). New riders need 100% total control of everything, no 'rider aids', it's the only way to find out what they can, and can't, get away with (if it hurts, don't do it).
Lol yeah man for sure good take, the only way to learn anything is to crash.
Do you guys ever practice locking the front tire? I used to do that sometimes on my old 95' non-abs sport bike when it was raining.
Not against anti lock brakes, but personally have never felt I needed it, or have I ever activated it on the bikes I have that are equipped with it. I do feel it should be able to be turned off for times I don't want it. I love cruise control though since my hand goes numb when riding at steady speeds for more that five minutes.
using a non abs sv650 from 2006 I did slide my back tire two times in the 10 months first time on high way when a car suddenly had to brake same situation as Zach, I felt the back tire wanted to swing, luckily was able to keep it up right and then put my foot down, second time at a roundabout suddenly a car came on I had to brake and I slide couple of meters always fun times for the heart hehe
New rider here. If you haven't done one already, can y'all do an episode on motorcycle fitness? What stretches/exercises to impore riding and preventing injuries.
Zach’s faces during the engine sound guessing game kill me lol
I may or may not have unintentionally backed a Honda Helix in. Which, that even has a rear drum brake.
Also, have to admit I was thinking Rebel 1100, as that's a parallel twin 270 degree cruiser. Totally missed the actual answer.
Porsche has the most advanced predictive suspension on higher end trims/versions. It's really impressive.
Well, kinda makes sense. Porsche is owned by VW, who also owns Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Ducati. Performance and higher end appeal are a large part of nearly half their lineup.
I knew right away that wasn't my 1700 Thunderbird...maybe I'll have to send a recording now 😂
I bought an R7 precisely because it only had ABS (no TC or anything else). I just need the safety net of being able to slow down quickly enough. Speeding up faster is self-dependent so the onus is on me. The only times I pull the ABS solenoid on that bike is on track, because as Ari said: a skilled rider, on dry warm tarmac, anticipating a braking marker can outbrake ABS, and on track I do. On the street? No flipping way in hell!! ABS has saved my bacon twice in 4 years because of cars cutting me off giving me just an extra split-second to adjust braking and slow down enough. And that is with a super conservative Japanese ABS programming, not a finely tuned European ABS calibration.
1:43:00 You don't ask "users" for the answer, you ask for the problem... this is a common misunderstanding if you aren't educated within the field of research. The reasoning in this section is flawed due to this, as a company you find a problem and an opportunity and you solve it for your users, you don't let them solve their problems.
“If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse.” This classic Henry Ford quote is often misinterpreted, the key opportunity in that quote is "faster" and then you can solve that in hundreds of ways where a car is one of them.
Christmas came early!
I have a ‘15 KTM 1190 Adventure and I found the traction control to be way too intrusive, even on the road. I ended up buying the dongle Spurgeon mentioned because I got sick of turning TC off every time I started the bike. In first and second gear, that TC would kick in pretty abruptly under semi-hard acceleration. Super annoying. I assume it’s better on later generations, but mine stays off unless I’m in the rain!
i have still never ridden a bike with ABS, i have been riding since 1980 hahaaa, now i am kind of excited to try it
Cruise control on sportbikes are very welcome in states like Minnesota where we have to ride 50 miles to get to a few fun curvy roads. 😅
50:20 imagine that, Courts turns off wheelie control? 🤔
The Honda Super Cub doesn't make you use a clutch lever, and it's the most sold motor vehicle in history right?
Because Honda made it accessible for delivery drivers and people wearing skirts and so it's become a staple for decades now precisely because it has designed accessibility features. It's had a huge impact and gotten a lot more people on 2 wheels, and can also be a middle ground for people who don't want to have to learn both clutch management and how to ride at the same time. The all-or-nothing view of learning the new activity instead of being able to spread it out with less pressure.
Hs/Ls Friday drop LETS GOOO!
This will be a very derisive episode but no topic will draw more flack the the "Dude Bro" look Spurge is sporting today! lol Hey, nothing wrong with liking graphic novels. Take "Watchmen" for example fantastic graphic novel and one my favorites. "Steeling Speed" like "Watchmen" might make a great movie. "Scourge" I think Zack has seen "The Green Hornet" one too many times lol! IMO anti-lock brakes are nice to have but not a deal breaker. I also think its better to learn on a non abs bike. My bike has unturnoffable T.C. and the one time it kicked in I thought my throttle or engine were malfunctioning. Took me a second to realize the nanny had kicked on and the bike was fine. All that ranting from Spurge makes my glad I have a fully adjustable air suspension. To Spurges point about manual transmissions I saw a spare tire cover on a Wrangler that a gear shift pattern and read "Millennial Anti-Theft Device" lol funny, sad, but true! Never stuff to stop talking about and never a definitive answer = job security lmao! NO idea what engine that was but in all fairness I've never heard an R.E. 650. Yes indeed Old Sports another fine episode. See you in 2!
Haptic radar feedback. That’s what’s coming, at least. Does Verge have it already?