Army National Guard Helicopters Grounded After Crashes
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- The National Guard Bureau just announced the director of the Army National Guard has ordered an aviation safety stand down of all Army National Guard helicopter units to review safety policies and procedures following two recent helicopter crashes.
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Развлечения
As I get older in my civilian career it sinks in more and more every day the "Use it or lose it" concept is very real, for any skillset, and any individual. If you are not using a skillset often enough you will get rusty. If you remain rusty long enough you can outright forget how to do things you once knew how to do. The brain is imperfect, memory is imperfect, you have to refresh and maintain your proficiency.
In the late 80s through mid 90s I was a UH-60 crew chief in 1/211 AHB in Utah, the unit that had one of those crashes. In addition to the flying we would do during our weekend drills and two week summer camp, the UH-60 crews had to get 36 AFTPs (additional flight training periods) every year and the Apache crews had to get 48 because of the weapons systems. I was usually getting about 160 hours a year. We were sharp! Then, with the change in administration in 1992 our training budget got cut. First they told us we would get 24 AFTPs, then 18, then 12, and finally 8. At the same time we were getting increased deployments. When UAH-64s were deployed to Kosovo, they were in country for a month before they started combat missions. Then almost right off the bat one of them flew into a mountain. We all knew what was going on, they were rusty just like we were and needed to get up to speed. I got out when my enlistment was up in 1995 because we were not allowed to train like we had done under the previous administration, yet there was an increase in deployments. I was willing to go into harms way if I was also allowed to train for it properly, but no way if we weren't properly supported! I'm way out of the loop of knowing what's going on now, but 5 hours a month sounds like very similar is happening to what I experienced.
Edit: I should have added that we were told that our training hour requirement was exactly the same as the regular Army. The Bush Sr. Administration wanted the National Guard to take on a bigger role in national security. So, we were not to be "Weekend Warriors" but were expected to be equally proficient. When we finished our transition from the old Vietnam era aircraft to the Apaches, Blackhawks, and OH-58s we scored the highest ever in the history of the test in our month long EXEVAL at Ft. Hood, beating the score of a battalion from the 101st Airborne who was finishing up as we arrived. National Guard and Reserve aviation units are known to often exceed regular Army and Air Force units because of the additional experience they have. For example, previous to Gulf War 1, half of our pilots had combat time from Vietnam, Grenada, or Panama. Also, half of our pilots had civilian flying jobs; many for the airlines. One was an FAA examiner and flew both fixed wing and rotor wing to test navaids such as VORs and ILSs in his day job. He had over 19,000 hrs of flight time logged. One of my UH-60 pilots had 8,000 hours, and a few others weren't far behind. That kind of experience doesn't exist in the Regular Army.
That's really interesting. Why the cuts in air time though?
@@cynthiamoore8868 The infamous "peace dividend".
I mean we are in a tough spot, more training cost money and when we aren’t in an outright war it is hard to justify that cost. The military already take billions, I don’t think we want to be in a mindset of constant war, peace is a difficult time for the military but it is the end goal.
@@cynthiamoore8868 yea same question, Pako talked about money v capabilities in yesterdays USAF re-org show, I'm guessin' it's the same with the Army air wings, that old saying "money talks, BS walks....."
@@forzer456 There's nothing more important than our armed forces, their training and safety.
We are on the precipice of another war so our government better cowboy up and get this training on track!
I remember my days as an Air Cav in Loach’s and Snakes we were flying as much as possible. There were no cutting corners it was all logged and documented. Man those were fun days.
We don't cut corners now, and everything is still logged and documented. You just can't "fly as much as possible" if you don't have the funding to put guys on orders and put birds in the air.
@@zacharywiedner327 So somebody is cutting corners with the funding.
@psychohist one could ascertain through his comment if there's not enough funding, flight time is limited. That's cutting a corner. What other corners are being cut besides flight time?
Five flying hours a month?? That’s just keeping basic flying skills in the pattern. Ludicrous.
Probably get 5 hours out of a 64 before it has to go to maint phase. Expensive birds to fly
Sad man imagine them working up to a deployment 😢😢😢😢
Finally! Their training is lacking...
Thanks for posting.
Wow! Two of my favorite channels together, blancolirio and mooch. Now we need Ryan McBeth to chime in.
I knew one of the pilots of the Mississipi crash he was one of our EMS pilots. Truly a great guy and amazing pilot AATW.
Hughes Helicopters was purchased by McDonnel Douglass in 1984, McD became part of Boeing in 1997, taking the military helos with it (AH-64). the Civilian lines were spun off to MD Helicopter in 1999
You can't be current without FLYING
and you can't stop mishaps without grounding. Just let the process iron out the wrinkles
@@quakerninja The process isn't going to fix inadequate flight time for training.
@@quakerninjaExcuses cause fatalities.
Proficiency is a product of recency. This isn’t the first time the Army has went through this. In the 90’s we had to use simulator time to make our semi and annual minimums. Lots of people stayed current but there were a lot of people not close to proficient. Our level of proficiency went through the roof after 9/11. We got a shit load of flight hours and had access to almost any spare part we needed and all of us got really good at our jobs, which was flying and shooting. It was amazing what hard, realistic and constant flying and training will get you. Unfortunately right now, it’s not just aviation and it never is really. Our Armor guys will feel the same gut punch. They will rely even more on the simulators. I know the sims are good but there’s nothing like the real thing.
Try explaining that to a desk jockey.
Thanks for keeping us up to date, Mooch
Hmmmm.... and thousands of army being fired with recruitment severely down... with everything going on my spidey senses are tingling
Indeed. We have IDIOTS in government who are pushing us into fighting a war with our pants down, yet none of these idiots are saying, "Hey, our pants are down! We better stop and pull up our pants, before we start fighting!"
People aren’t flying enough and they’re getting into accidents.
Army Logic : There won’t be any more flying until the accidents stop…
Awesome succint video. Will rewatch later more attentively.
And, I always enjoy your outro. That last bit takes me back to the old Navy ads. Back in the day when Navy was not just a job but an adventure, and Army was Be All You Can Be. Ahhh, the days.
Great video MOOCH! Thank you for the update.
5-7 hours a month for a helicopter pilot is NEGLIGENT! I hope the stand down highlights and reenforces the difference between Currency and Proficiency, a major factor for ORM and the methodical crawl, walk, run planning for a training flights, especially at night with NVDs.
yea, from what I've learned in reading up on the Apache before I try to learn it in DCS, its apparently a temperamental beast compared to most any other rotor craft. if you're not getting weeks worth of flight time a month, something is bound to slip. ANG needs to budget for more flight time for its pilots. no wonder the military cant compete with civ air jobs
Your videos are genuinely entertaining, keep it up
bot ass comment, disrespectful
You mean the National Guard has temporarily repurposed all helicopters as ground vehicles.
Better than permanent submarines 😂
Thanks for the update. Continue to keep safe.
Thanks Ward for the update. Stay safe.
Everyday it seems like our military is less ready to handle a conflict with a near peer or multiple conflicts at the same time. N Korea, china seem to be ramping up and world seems to be getting ready for a post superpower United States or at least more isolationist. I know it’s probably because we are getting more information it’s making me feel that way. Thanks again for your videos
But they’re proficient with using proper pronouns
Thanks for the update Mooch.
Inexperience and complacency kills more often than people want to admit
There is absolutely no way one can maintain any type of readiness standards on only five hours a month.
Our military is once again being turned into a hollow force...and we are closer to a major war than I can remember.
When I joined the Georgia Guard in 1977, the Guard was regarded as a strategic reserve. Now the Guard has to be just as operational as the Active Army.
Not on five hours a month, though....
I live fairly close to Camp Clay, which used to be NAS Atlanta. There is very little flight actvity going on there now.
When I Flew back in the late 80's thru early 90s, Huey Drive ARNG, the slick pilots always got more hours than the gun or scout guys, I averaged 120 hrs yearly, req flight was 98. We, Transport pilots, had a variety types of missions from VIP Transport to tactical insertions to drug eradication and other non AFTP taskings. The cobra and apaches only flew to the range.
My husband ran the LT101 helicopter engine program many years ago. There were a lot of mishaps due to engine problems.
I don't know all of the info but he had to go to Congress to testify regarding engine failure.
It was in the 70's or early 80's, I believe.
But this sounds more reasonable...that these pilots need more training.
Bravo Zulu as always Mooch (from an Air Force guy)
Dude a 3 min video ward?! Ya blue ballin us man! 😂
Thanks Mooch!
Hear you on Julie Mason the other day. Great info and discussion as usual for you.
As an Aviator with over 30 years of flying, close to 20 as a Army aviator, the problem isn't getting the pilots to come in and fly the aircraft. The problem has always been the budget for the flight hours and the budget for the aviators. The Pentagon wants to use the NG and Reserve as a full time resource but it refuses to want to pay for full time services. The bean counters see the bare minimum requirement for keeping an aviator legal to fly and they budget off of that minimum. The upper brass operates on the idea that "well we can always train them up to speed right before the deployment". Meanwhile pilots are coming in and getting whatever flight time they can, just trying to fly enough to keep the "rust" off their skillset. So while the Pentagon is handing out the bare minimum to keep pilots in the air and stay within budget.............DC sends 100s of billions to foreign nations to spend on their defense. The system is broken.
Sounds like my country - South Africa - pre 1994 we had the best, even developed a helicopter called the "Rooivalk", of which some are being used by the UN in the DRC. But ours are non functioning, I would be surprised if we had 2 functioning and in "active duty".
I would say the system needs a tuneup, but it’s not broken. Bean counters can never be trusted to run any organization, let alone our national defense. Only thing worse would be letting a certified asshole get his hands back on things.
Adequate training is a necessity that is neglected by some administrations, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also budget for military aid to others when appropriate.
Our defense spending for 2023 was $746 billion. Foreign aid was $60.4 billion. I don't know where the "100s of billions to foreign nations to spend on their defense" would have come from.
@@psychohist So how many aircraft crashes and dead crew members are you willing to accept before you cut spending to other countries? 1 a year? 2 or 3 year? If we can't afford to train our forces to be proficient and safe in their aircraft we have no business sending money to anyone else. Your answer should be ZERO.
Man, I love your room.
There seem to be multiple problems in the case of the Mississippi crash. 1. The pilots aren't flying enough to maintain proficiency. 2. The maintainers are mostly part-time, so keeping the aircraft mission-capable is a problem, and the potential for cutting corners is increasing. 3. Were both crewmembers rated and current AH-64 pilots? One of the two men was assigned to a medical evacuation unit. It seems unlikely that he was a qualified and current AH-64 pilot. If not, then was this truly a training flight, or was it more or less a joyride?
The maintainers are absolutely not mostly part time. Guard Aviation units have full time T32 technicians that staff their AASF's. Those maintainers go to work every day and work on aircraft.
7 hours min? Thats dangerous
That’s why I’ve not heard helicopters above my house the last week or so. My town has a ANG helicopter repair facility at our local airport
Thanks for the hot dope Mooch.
Would like to hear your opinion. About the Gripen JAS E with the Iris-T missile. Thank you, love the content.
Within the same hour there was a Lakota crash right over the state line in Pine Alabama, fortunately both crew members survived. there’s been way to many crashes here lately
too many
My co-worker has been kicking and screaming for years all the way up to NGB and they've done nothing! And units are constantly asking for "exceptions to policy" for some reason. SMH It's little things that add up until something big happens.
Something odd going on with the Apache's. They have been around what 40 years and two crash within a week or two. I going with training issues.
the Apaches
Not again! Pilot error, poor maintenance regime, structural failure, procurement process? I hope the investigation is comprehensive and is released quickly.
The National Guard and Active duty have the same requirements for currency.
What differs is proficiency. Each state is funded differently and they address safety culture differently.
I suspect lack of maintenance crews, and lack of training for these crews, contributed SIGNIFICANTLY to this grounding. I have personal experience with this, having spent EIGHT MONTHS in advanced individual training (AIT) to become an armament and electrical systems repairer for the OH-58D helicopter in 2001-2002, only for the US Army to NEVER assign me to units that actually performed maintenance on the armament and electrical systems of that specific model of helicopter! (I was assigned to UH-60 Black Hawk units instead.) I couldn't do my job because I didn't receive the necessary training, yet the Army never sent me back to AIT for retraining.
Bureaucrats are EPIC FAILures, no matter where they work.
That is why Civilians shouldn't run the military.
Sad that we keep losing folks. The Apache is a very well built survivable machine compared to what I flew in the 80s. It will be interesting to see if the flight hour budgets were cut to use that money elsewhere and if these crews suffered proficiency losses because of that. I remember my Cav unit running out of flight hour allocations in Korea in the early 80s and we pretty much sat on our asses for a month or two except for a few flights. Considering a tour was 12 months, that was a big hit to proficiency. Army Aviation is the biggest budget consumer for the Army, as I recall, so i can see the bean counters trying to scale back the flight hours to pay for bullets somewhere else. We have to beef up our defense spending and get more people and ammo to meet all the threats, in my opinion.
We got the Apache's at the 101st ABN in May 85' before I ETS'd and went over to the NAVY
Osprey problems seem to relate to the connection between the two turbines power output and tilt angles in the video the port rotor does not match the starboard one with the port blades hitting the deck. Not getting enough flight hours points to the top of the funding chain.
Thank you! Any thoughts on the recent Air Force statement that they are not ready for war?
He did a video just the other day on that.
What about emergency situations
So let me get this straight... A report says that the Guard pilots fly below minimum hours each month, and now they want them not to fly at all with a stand down????
I see the JCM800 is powered up! What are you jamming on today?
Hard to say the causes ahead of the investigations. Could be any number of factors contributing to the mishaps. Could be wire hazards, maintenance issues, or other problems. Wait and see what the investigation reports say. My condolences to the families.
Did the deck crew survive that osprey?
during WWII more aircraft related deaths were due to training accidents than those that were attributed to direct combat. It's shocking but true. this is a dangerous business in the best of circumstances.
If you ground them, they're going to get fewer hours still, just sayin
The Reserves and Guard are an integral aspect of our National defense. It has always caused me to wonder about the demands we place on our "part-time" aviators to maintain proficiency and combat-readiness without adequate flight time under realistic training scenarios. I was an active duty USAF F-15 Crew Chief in the early 1980s. I transitioned to a C-141 Reserve unit that shared aircraft and facilities with an active duty unit after my enlistment was complete. I was certainly capable of turning a wrench as well anyone else, but my competency and knowledge of the C-141 would never come to the same level that I had with the F-15; there simply were not enough hours during one weekend per month to become proficient. I strongly suspect the same thing is happening in the Army Guard.
Weren't grounded long. 60 or 64 just flew over my house where that utah crash was
Is it some kind of technical problem like airframe fatigue or some electronics issue? I've heard the apache's electronics can be a bit to work on. If the helicopters are in for maintenance they cannot be flown. Is it a fuel budget thing? Is there a reason these pilots weren't flying?
One of the pilots on the Utah AH-64 crash was a USAF type from the local USAFR Fighter Wing.???
Laughing Out Loud???
Sounds like another trip to perform another brief
Seems that the units around my location didn't to get the notification, as CH-47's and CH-53's have been over-flying the area near my home for the last four days.
Yeah, I know that rotor wing is necessary for combat operations, but with literally with so many moving parts, there are so many things that can go wrong. I am cringing with the complexity of the FLRAA choices. Can tilt rotor aircraft autorotate or glide to a softer crash landing? Are there any dead stick scenarios that work?
Defense contractors using imported components in critical applications… no surprise
5 hours a month is abysmal.
So the Texas National Guard can't use helicopters to help people in the wildfires in Texas?
Are there any helos that arent grounded right now in the US Military?
End the reserve components and activate them. Active duty budget is needed for the most expensive training and equipment.
Those units are in the reserves for a reason.
You get better troops in the Guard and Reserve aviation. Almost all of my attack unit had at least two years of college. Half of our pilots had civilian flying jobs, which put them in the air way more than regular Army would. One of my UH-60 pilots had 8,000 hours, one had 6,000, and one had 5,000. Our 'king of the hill', who flew UH-1s, had over 19,000. In his civilian life he was an examiner for the FAA, and flew around the country testing NAVAIDS. That kind of experience doesn't exist in the regular Army. Pilots with that kind of experience are willing to be activated for a year or two occasionally, but will leave if forced to go full time Army for the rest of their careers.
WOW, way NOT enough hours. Combat Flying takes a lot of pilot technique and you cannot get it without training.
7hrs/month is insignificant flying time.
The Marshall is on standby I see, that's good.
I've never seen an Apache or any helicopter fly with an asymmetric loadout like in the clip at 1:38
If it is within acceptable wieght and balance parameters then you're good to go. Odd looking but normal
Happens during normal operations for attack helicopters as they release missiles one at a time.
It's not uncommon to see AH-64s with a single external fuel tank, which causes an asymmetrical load.
I spent tours in two different Apache units and never saw a loadout like that. But, weight-and-balance-wise, it's less asymmetrical than it would be if the rocket pod were mounted on the inboard pylon, as the four Hellfires are much heavier than an empty rocket pod. The pod being mounted outboard gives it more "moment-arm" to counteract the inboard-mounted rack of Hellfires.
Nothing wrong with Apache... but its a 50-year old platform. Failure to replace it is kind of painful at this point.
The U.S. Army has spent the last 40 years unsuccessfully trying to field a scout/light attack helicopter to replace the OH-58s and some of the Apaches. Every program--most visibly the LHX program--has been cancelled before the aircraft went into production. The Army just a couple of weeks ago cancelled the Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) program that had been underway since 2018.
@@RANDALLBRIGGS Its crazy how all branches of the military keep failing in their modernisation projects
I remember Mooch doing a segment about how few hours Russian pilots were flying, which resulted in a higher incidence of crashes and combat losses.
It would possible the same is happening here.
+wardcarroll *Thanks for the heads up on a Safety Stand Down involving **_all_** types of U.S. (viz., Army Aviation) helicopters.* Probable that some mechanical item(s) snapped in both Hughes AH-64 attack 'copters and the aircrew forgot the correct procedures for dealing withal.
As a former P-3C naval aircrewman, I can relate to the situation. Need to fly. Simulators are good but don't replace flight time.
I think it's pretty funny all the people commenting and going on about the hours thing, and lack of training. My first cousin was one of the gentlemen killed in the latest crash in Mississippi. Both of the men in that helicopter flew way more hours than 5 a month. My cousin 20+ years of flying the Apache, including flying in Iraq. He flew medivac choppers when he wasn't on duty with the gaurd. It was supposed to be my cousins fini flight, he was set to retire today. My family was at the airport when they took off so they could record them landing. Hopefully, they will figure out the results of the crash in the next month or so.
Sorry for your loss, Mike, and thanks for the detail.
Substandard training leads to accidents. 5 hours a month??
Disturbing, they will figure it out always do. I was in the 184th TFG and they got it going on.
When training hours are mentioned, there is always the debate about currency vs proficiency with most stating that currency doesn’t equal proficiency. It’s an interesting debate. Interestingly anytime an Army aviator exceeds a specified number of days (it used to be 60, and may still be), the aviator was considered no longer current and required a proficiency flight evaluation to determine whether aviator could perform the required flight tasks to the minimum standards for each task. If so, the aviator was deemed current because at that moment in time, the aviator demonstrated proficiency in the required preflight/flight tasks. Certainly the aviator would be behind in achieving semi annual flight hours requirements (depending on aircraft type), but by successfully completing the proficiency flight evaluation, the aviator is deemed proficient.
Is the aviator truly proficient? Probably not. It’s incumbent on flight evaluators to evaluate to absolute standards and include maturity, judgement, air sense, situational awareness, and other aeronautical factors including local area rules and procedures. When they don’t (and most don’t because the workload is so backed up or the unit commander will hold it against evaluators that force the commander to report a lower than normal readiness level percentage for unit aviators. Also, there is a relationship/friendship factor that places additional pressure on evaluators.
But proficiency as a combat ready Army aviator is more than just semi-annual minimums. The sad part is that unit flying hours are based in part on annual training requirements based on semi-annual minimums. These minimums are based on a formal study by subject matter experts supervised by the Directorate of Training and Doctrine in accordance with Training and Doctrine Command regulations. Many field aviators, evaluators, commanders, and others complain about the amount of hours units receive but they do it to themselves in not ensuring they compute training requirements accurately and with an understanding that funding also limits the amount of flying hours allotted.
The fix: commanders must have the stones to accurate submit flying hour projections for future FYs to ensure proficiency for every aviator assigned. Trainers and evaluators must train and evaluate to absolute standards and when any aviator’s proficiency is in doubt, conduct a proficiency flight evaluation to have the aviator demonstrate proficiency to minimum standards. Friendships are great until you have to attend funerals.
Seeing all the "hotdog" flying on social media lately, this doesn't surprise me. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but not old bold pilots
The classic line
Boeing... the answer is Boeing.
Damn vodoo machines
5 hours per month for a 365 days year is .16 hours per day. That won’t get it for effective and efficient training.
Put one of those bean counters in a seat to see if he/she thinks the training hours per day is sufficient.
Fly Navy 🇺🇸⚓️! Buy me a beer 🍺.
🤔
ANG！ Be Safe！❤
You left your amp on.
5 hours a month? Why a stand down? The problem is right in front of their face. Not enough flight time.
The budget standoff is, quite literally, killing troops. Pass a budget and get our units actually funded.
They shouldn't pass jack until we know they're not laundering defense money to foreign countries.
Is the answer just MORE MONEY, MORE MONEY, or is it where they’re spending the money they’ve got?
@@billjayne7474 The answer is the "money we got" can't be fully released to units until a budget is passed. We don't have the funding to spend at all. The continuing resolution crap is crushing readiness across the Guard.
What you actually need is, to get back to regular order. They have not had a on-time actual budget for a few years now.
What do you know about the F-35 crash in South Carolina, that the Marines hushed up even the pilot's name.
What is the name of the male Navy Lieutenant who dumped the F-35C on the Carl Vinson back in 2022?
Bet they are all trained up in DEI & CRT quals.
My God 🙈
Maybe it's not the machines but the pilots ? Just wondering.
5 hours a month!? Civ pilots fly more than that. That is completely ludicrous
Hmmm...Boeing took over production?? Do the maintenance manuals have big redaction lines through them now?
Boeing Apache Max
Army logic: these guys don't get enough flight time, let's ground them to improve that...
Smh. Safety and good, extensive training are of paramount importance. What's going on here?
Similar to Covid,one cough and everyone thrown into same basket,should be a right for a serviceman to fly often not a privilege,muscle memory is what gives you the skills no matter what your doing❤
stop crashing!
I just think in todays world with information at our fingertips its easier and faster to get news of these kinds of events.
I would be curious to see historical data to compare if there is an up tick recently or not.
I do feel Xennials, Gen X and Boomers all had the ability to handle machinery more proficiently. I only say this because our world growing up was different. example: driving at age 14 on the farm (even manual transmissions) and driving tractors and motorcycles etc. at very young ages. Before technology corrupted our youth (not a bad thing, just different times honestly)
Ward, your interview with Julie Mason was interesting…I think you are downplaying Austin’s total screwup…his so called report on his absence was the reason for the hearings now ( plus he was back in the hospital, after complications, right?)…congressmen did not buy his explanations, did you? Rep Michael Waltz nailed him on it, & so Did Rep McClain. His report said he fixed the ‘process’, but it wasn’t a process problem…he should have been fired by Pres.
Speaking of which ... Did the Marines ever provide a summary of its investigation into the F35 that was in South Carollna?
Most JAGMANs take about a year to complete.
In the meantime speculation from the barcalounger cabal runs amok.
Usually board reports take like a year.
Mooch was surprised by the lack of forthcoming information, so that's why I asked. @@WALTERBROADDUS
Of course I had heard about the osprey safety stand down, but I hadn't seen that particular video you show here. Were there fatalities? Which incident was it so I can read further?
Not to go off topic too far. But, does anyone actually like the Army retro uniform change?
The AGSU? Yes. Its pretty popular looks wise. Some people don't like that they have to buy it, but just about everyone likes the way it looks.
I’m a fan of the AGSU as well, but still haven’t purchased mine. I’m getting to it, but plunking down $1000 for a uniform hurts.
@@zacharywiedner327 just seems like one of those unnecessary change things.
@@WALTERBROADDUS Agree to disagree. The ASU's look like a bus drivers uniform. The AGSU looks like a Soldiers uniform.
@@andrewhackney6286 maybe it's just a style and generational thing? Maybe I just don't like brown?
How many hours of proficiency flight time would about $100B of repurposed foreign aid buy us?
I don't think Apaches are being used to assist any Assad forces in Syria.
Edit
Or any American equipment for that matter.
Ward said "assisting anti-Assad forces in Syria".