What's up with SOULs in Deltarune? | DELTARUNE Theory / Analysis
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
- If you enjoy Deltarune videos, then why not subscribe?
Patreon: / mysticslime
Discord: / discord
In Undertale, we got a pretty good idea of how monster and human SOULs worked, but now we're in a brand new universe and we have to figure out how they work in DELTARUNE. In this video, we'll figure out what's going on with SOULs in this game with the information we've got.
Chapters:
0:00 - Intro to SOULs
1:01 - Red Soul Analysis
4:49 - Lightner Soul Analysis
9:38 - Darkner Soul Analysis
11:24 - Red Soul Theories
13:37 - Lightner Soul Theories
15:36 - Closing Thoughts
15:53 - Patreon Launch!
16:40 - Conclusion
CREDITS:
Thanks to @Chymnoy_Zelievar for the Deltarune battle background! • Deltarune battle backg...
And here are all of those cool people I mentioned at the end of the video; If you love deltarune content then you should go check them out!
@andrew_cunningham : / @andrew_cunningham
@JaruJaruJ : / jarujaruj
@HalfBreadChaos : / halfbreadchaos 
Игры
Something very important to note is the fact that Monster *souls* have no issue with Determination in Undertale. As far as we know they can handle it fine, it's their *bodies* that can't. Monster bodies are composed of mostly magic, and Determination is more closely related to a physical substance, therefore it gets into their body and dilutes their magic, causing them to melt. If they had stronger, more physical bodies then they would likely be able to handle at least some level of Determination, and I personally think *that* is the missing piece here. The Monsters in Deltarune live on the surface, presumably eating physical foods and acting much more similar to other overworld creatures like humans and animals. As such they have more physical bodies, whereas all the food and such in the Underground was made from magic, causing their bodies to loose their physicality over the many centuries that they were locked up. This would also explain why the gap in power between humans and monsters is so much lower in Deltarune then it was in Undertale, the monsters have a more solid physical form and are able to hit harder and take more damage. Another big thing supporting this conclusion is that Monsters in Deltarune, while they do still have some small amounts of magic (Catty talks about occult magic and there are some talks of Noelle trying to learn basic healing), are not nearly as good with it. Toriel uses a normal stove, they use physical hospitals, most magic is trivial at best. Noelle even mentions this, saying how cool it would be to live in a world where everything can be fixed with a little spell. If this was the Undertale universe, she'd have her wish. Healing magic in Undertale is extremely powerful, and quite similar to how it works in the Dark Worlds.
Very good point bro, @MysticSlime you should see this one
This makes a lot of sense
You could submit that as a college essay
This would be a very viable theory if not for the Snowdin Library and Waterfall tablets, which heavily imply that monsters also lacked physical matter during the time that humans and monsters coexisted in one place. If you recall, that took place on the surface world, which does not align with what this theory is suggesting. So no, it's still probably not that.
I've seen similar comments to this, and I agree on most points. However when it comes to the souls/bodies not being able to handle determination, I kind of group them together because Monsters' bodies are largely made out of monster magic from their own souls. I think you're right that its mainly their bodies that cant handle it, but since their bodies and souls are so connected I kind of group them together as the same thing.
I think monsters CAN use determination in Undertale though, just not as much as humans, I mean, Undyne lasts for a rather long time in her fight, or possibly monsters have the same amount of DT, and it manifests differently. or both
True, Undyne and monsters CAN use it. But while it is true that Undyne does last a decent amount of time using it, we still never ever get to see a monster in Undertale that has determination that doesn't melt eventually. Alphys injecting monsters with the stuff also seems to imply that monsters melting from DT isn't from a difference in how they manifest it, but rather that they physically can't handle it probably due to their souls being monster magic and not having room for anything else in their souls.
@@MysticSlime Iirc, it's stated in the true lab that the reason why monsters can't handle determination has to do with how little matter is in their bodies rather than anything intrinsic about the soul. I would wager a guess to say that determination and monster souls both work the same as in undertale, but the physiology of monsters is what differs.
The reason I say this is because in undertale, the barrier was created by human mages, meaning that humans used to be able to use magic. But come the events of Undertale, it's stated in the librarby that they can't use magic. Perhaps this happens to both humans and monsters in deltarune, prompting monsters to evolve to eat physical human food as opposed to magical monster food. If so, this would enable monsters to handle a larger amount of determination.
Granted, whether this would be a difference between monster souls, monster physiology, or both is semantic or not, or if there's a meaningful distinction between the two, is yet to be seen.
@@jtbirdACC Monsters’ bodies in Undertale are also made up of a lot of monster magic that comes from the soul however if Im remembering right, so the absence of monster magic in Deltarune probably is the factor that makes them able to hold determination. In Undertale monster souls seem to be very connected to their physical bodies.
@@MysticSlime Perhaps the DT Alphys injected onto the monsters was pure determination. But in this case, I think that monsters have dormant DT in them. It's just a matter of how they use it or manifest it, take Undyne, for example. She activated her DT by her perseverance to kill Frisk, and because of her friends. So, due to that pure DT that Alphys was injecting into monsters is probably why Amalgamates formed, since it was too unstable for them.
Undyne the Undying can technically last with the determination in her body forever. If you don't attack her, she will fight you forever, there is no turn limit to the fight.
I feel this was a deliberate decision on Toby's end, as there are fights in the game that *do* have a turn limit, such as the Dummy fight, or Medaton's quiz show fight.
Besides that, we get no indication that monster souls can't handle any determination at all. The amalgamates lasted for quite a while unconscious, and some time conscious, before succumbing to the DT. This was by her putting an unknown amount of DT in the monsters, a process that had no precedent and no guidelines. A lesser amount could feasibly not melt the monsters...
That being said this part is all speculative, we are not given enough information in undertale proper to say how much DT is too much for monsters, or if any is too much.
I have a theory on the darkner's souls.
Darkners are inanimate objects and don't have a soul, they don't have power of will, they don't have DETERMINATION, but it's when a dark fountain made from the determination of a lightner appears near them, that they are imbued with determination and power of will, being able to move and live.
So, the dark fountain of a dark world is like the soul of all the darkners of that dark world, that's why Lancer and Rouxls turn into statues, because it wasn't they're fountain, it wasn't they're soul, but they still manage to survive a bit thanks to the determination they were imbued with.
Then it's when Ralsei's dark fountain enters. My theory is that Ralsei's fountain is the original fountain, it wasn't made by a lightner, so it's made of pure darkness, pure DETERMINATION, and that's why all darkners can live there.
That's a good theory, but also makes me wonder why all Darkners of the same fountain think the same way or even necessarily want the same things all the time if they all share the same soul. Sure, every darkner generally DOESN'T want you to seal the fountain at first, but we can see the Darkners can turn against each other like how the King hurts Lancer and all of his subjects eventually rebel against him. If they all had the same soul, I'd think they'd all be more or less on the same page.
No joke I was actually thinking the same thing
@@MysticSlime well, on that it will probably work the following way.
Dark fountains aren't exactly a "shared soul", it's more like a "Determination source" (A determination fountain if you want), that all darkners shared, the fountain gives them determination but not a soul. I also guess that darkners aren't compatible with other dark fountains since it wasn't the determination that gave them live.
But....
What would happen if a darkner somehow got a soul? Would he be able to go to the light world since they have a portable determination source? DOES RALSEI HAVE A SOUL?
That would totally make sense for why Spamton wanted Kris', since he realized he needed more power from the heart/soul to get to [Heaven]. If a soul grants the ability to go to the light world, it would make total sense for Spamton's grab at it to try to ascend past the NEO's limitations. _Especially_ since heavens are usually portrayed as being bright and light, and leaving the dark world requires going UP into the _light_ world as opposed to their dark, as well as parallels to leaving the basement, etc. So excellent theory and thoughts! Thanks!
Ralsei being basically Deltarune’s Flowey kinda concerns me
I'm surprised that you didn't mention the fact that kris after they ripped their soul out was able to create an entire dark fountain in the living room at the end of chapter 2.
This means that kris without their soul has so much determination to move and even create foutains without a soul.
This completely reinforces queens idea of making a dark fountain. Meaning that anyone with enough determination could make a fountain even without a soul. All that is needed is determination.
It's possible the soul is only the source of determination, not necessarily what contains it. Meaning Kris could have enough in their body to open the fountain since they do it very shortly after taking the soul out. Similar to how souls supposedly contain life force but Kris is able to live at least for a time without it.
@@LilacMonarch True
It is possible that the power of will(mental/emotional) can generate determination, wich means the soul overrides kris' will, but they still have a lot
Doesn’t Kris still have their own soul that was previously present before we took over their body?
@@thepurpleperson3765probably not, because why would they walk like a zombi if they still had their soul
i think there's an easier explanation you're overlooking: sealing a fountain might be harder than opening one. imagine poking a hole into a bottle of water. the force of the 'liquid' pushing against the 'barrier' (or, the darkness pushing against whatever keeps it from flowing into the light world) would add pressure coming from the other side, making it a bit easier to poke through and let the liquid flow. now imagine plugging the hole with another piece of plastic. the liquid, instead of pushing and weakening the barrier for a opening, it would push against you while you try to seal it.
Thats a good explanation, and nothing in the video was meant to go against this explanation. I don't disagree at all that a monster like Susie could probably MAKE a fountain, but wouldn't be able to SEAL it. Sorry if the video made this unclear, but I completely agree!
What if opening a fountain isn't just harder, what if it's WAY harder? What if opening a fountain takes so much will and determination that it kills or almost kills any monster that successfully opens one? Maybe the very thing that gives inanimate objects life in dark worlds is a monster's own soul, and I think Ralsei might know this too. That's why he so frantically tries to stop Berdly from opening a new fountain; not because one extra fountain is gonna bring upon the Roaring, after all Kris's fountain at the very end of Chapter 2 doesn't end the story. It's because Berdly would die if he opened a fountain as his soul would be used to power it.
Also, Kris is the only one who is able to close dark fountains - they try to close the fountain in Chapter 2 during the Snowgrave route even if Susie and Ralsei aren't with them, so they don't necessarily have to be there to seal it. Only Kris does. That could be because they are the only one we see in Deltarune who has a human soul, so they are also the only one who is able to absorb a monster's soul. Notice how you get stronger each chapter? You level up not at the end or beginning of each new chapter, but immediately after you seal a fountain. If you go back to the castle town at the end of Chapter 2 you can see that you're all now at LV 3, which could be representative of Kris's soul absorbing the small amount of power within each new monster soul.
Maybe that's what happened to Dess and Rudy. They might have opened dark fountains, killing Dess and leaving Rudy with an incurable illness that keeps him bedridden; I'd like to see you try to walk around without a soul! Except we *do* see someone try to do that, and Kris hobbles around as mentioned in the video whenever they remove the soul inside of them, even if only briefly.
@@sloothorr i can see the sese in a lot of that! but if it was a monster soul, wouldn't they level up in the overworld too? jw
@@sloothorr this is a very interesting idea. And Kris had like some traumatic experience in that bunker. This could be tied with that, and also is suspicious that Dess told Noelle that one day she would take her to a place that was similar to a dark world. Maybe she and Kris started to mess with that, and something went wrong.
What I thought about Ralsei being so alarmed was that opening another fountain inside one fountain would made the hole too much bigger and the fountain so much stronger, and that was the difference between opening a normal one and do that. Like the metaphor of the ballon. If you open only one hole you can seal it. But if you Start to open more holes near the original hole the ballon could collapse and explode more easily. But also this is an interesting idea, we haven’t saw how a monster opens a fountain and what happens.
@@mineash2945 In Undertale, your stat screen shows the stats of the player. Your name and kill count are displayed here (Chara's name, but Toby Fox has recommended naming the first fallen human after yourself). You are the one that forces Frisk to kill things, and that results in your soul becoming stronger and more determined.
Interestingly, in Deltarune, the stat screen uses Kris's name instead of your own, even though you're prompted to enter it at the beginning of the game (and it's used for your save file). These aren't *your* stats, they're *Kris's* stats, and because Kris doesn't kill anybody voluntarily, they never gain any LOVE.
I have a small theory that likely has a lot of holes in it, but is still a fun idea.
The Soul in Undertale that we use to control Frisk is the same Soul we use to control Kris in Deltarune. It's why Kris can respond to Sans as if they reconise them. We the player do, controlling the same thing we did in Undertale.
The reason why Frisk never put up a fight agaisnt the soul in Undertale is because Frisk is still a very young child (assuming they're not just very small) and isn't strong enough to fight back. Kris is a teenager, so is stronger and is able to fight back against it.
Or maybe they just died on the fall
Or were in a kind of coma
Nice theory
I actually think this is important
It's the same soul from Undertale
It seems like all lighteners have the same kind of soul so a foreign human soul from undertales universe could potentially be incredibly powerful
@@IkerTG or they were the corps of chara that was reanimated by determination
@@minestar2247 but then the concept of "frisk" in the pacifist route wouldn't make sense
@@IkerTG wait, they have a personality
Kris has shown a will of their own WITHOUT the soul inside their body- So it's not out of the picture to consider Ralsei is simply lying, that Kris can be compassionate or save the world WITHOUT the soul tho, that's yet to be seen....
Yeah, Ralsei definitely shows signs of being a little unreliable. The thing that does it for me is bringing up the Roaring - something which could literally result in the END OF THE WORLD, only at the VERY END of the second chapter. Seems like important information we should've known from the start.
@@MysticSlime He didn't mention the Roaring specifically (that is, in great detail), but he did mention it. The legend/prophecy/tale which is one of the first things he talks about contains "For millenia, LIGHT and DARK have lived in balance, bringing peace to the world. But if this harmony were to shatter... a terrible calamity would occur". I don't know what else that part is talking about if not the Roaring.
@@MysticSlime correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he try explaining it early in chapter 1? Susie interrupted him, so he never got to finish explaining. Am I remembering that right?
@@MysticSlime Yea a few things don't quite add up. Like why is opening fountains a bad thing?? I creates dark worlds and uhh..? Like how does that cause a great evil I don't fully get that! And if we're somehow the "chosen ones" meant to save the world why are WE opening darkworlds?! There's some conflicting points of interest there! That's like calling someone a hero for fixing problems they caused..like putting a cat in a tree then saving the cat and being called a hero, or lighting a house on fire then saving the people from it, y'know? If we're supposed to save the world as the prophecy ralsei told us says, and opening dark world is the big evil we're supposed to stop, then why are we actively opening up dark worlds?? Clearly the prophecy isn't as true as ralsei led on, just makes me wonder what parts are lies and what aren't..
@@testerwulf3357 first of all the Prophecy was foretold by Gaster cause of Him.png and Ralsei saying the prophecy was wishpered “across time and space”, the reason too many dark world ends the world is because it awakens the titans who then destroy the world, the reason we’re opening dark world is to further along the prophecy (also Kris isn’t the knight, they couldn’t have opened the cyber world and they are described as a separate being in Toby’s scrapped intro), plus too many dark fountains will also cover the light world in darkness and considering dark worlds are “Super dangerous” according to Kris this is bad.
Honesty Deltarune fans need to realize that certain things can’t be lies and learn about “word of god” in fictional media
Monsters are NOT able to use determination for large portions of time SOLELY because they are not comprised of matter. We know this because Undyne, who managed to naturally produce insane amounts of determination to revive herself, still melted after she became Undyne the Undying. But what if they were given a physical body to contain their form?
I believe that Mettaton's body is actually powered using determination. After all, Alphys was the one who made Mettaton's body, and what was her other notable experiment? The Amalgamates, monsters who were revived by injecting determination into their bodies. It would make sense that Mettaton would be another experiment where she could fuse a monster that can connect to a physical body, with the determination of a human. That's why Mettaton can become both NEO and EX.
Thats a good theory honestly! Makes me wonder though if DT could fuel mettaton forever. I mean if metta’s body had to he refueled with more DT i doubt that asgore would be okay with a ton of the human DT and power they have being used on mettaton
@@MysticSlime Actually iirc Aphys was appointed as the royal scientist BECAUSE of Mettaton. She couldn't have created him using Determination because she would only get access to it after basically writing "Made a living robot ✓" into her resume. But that could probably work for the EX and NEO forms, yeah, since those were added later.
wouldn't she feel way too guilty over what she did to try to make another experiment with Determination?
I don't think Mettaton uses DT. We know it is just a ghost that haunts the robot body. He is just like mad dummy and Mew Mew.
@@Sofalando Except mad dummy and mew mew don't separate boss forms, or transform really at all. They just bring their body alive whilst mettaton goes from box on wheel>humanoid>ultra humanoid.
Some people just assume that monster in Undertale world don't carry determination. I have a different interpretation, Undyne try to show you how determined monsters actually are, and Alphys LITERALLY said in a Entry from True Lab that monster can't carry "THAT MUCH" determination! So I think monster can carry determination, but not as much as humans.
I’m sorry for not clarifying this in the video; monsters can have a TINY amount of determination, but its so minuscule and small for most monsters that it doesnt really matter for anybody except Undyne. Heck, Flowey had to absorb all the souls of the monsters in the underground to just equal the power of 1 human soul. It is true that this tiny amount of determination in monster souls COULD BE what Queen was referring to, but if that were the case why choose a monster to create a fountain rather than a human who has MORE determination? It just seems like Deltarune implies that Monsters have more DT than in Undertale, but maybe thats just the way I took it.
@@MysticSlime Oh I get it! It makes total sense, maybe DT monsters DO have more determinatio than UT monsters. Thanks to elaborate!
Great vid, by the way.
@@MysticSlime Well, all good until you mention the fact of the flowey thing, there is something that is not clear to me based on what I remember about undertale. there are seven types of human souls and flowey mentions that during the time he lived as a flower he reset again and again out of mere curiosity, if it really was something general for human souls then why or how did the other children die? Perhaps the type of soul relates to the amount of determination it possesses being the red soul The most powerful being literally the soul of determination, allowing the bearer to revive or restart the world almost at will, being this type of human soul specifically so powerful hindered the control that flowey had over the Underground, mentioning the latter flowey explicitly in one of his dialogues That he hadn't gotten to have these kinds of problems until we arrived (except for his difficulties with sans) , in addition we must not forget that flowey is a being that only possesses determination which was injected by alphys in the laboratory real
I know it's a lot of text but I wanted to clarify that
@@Fosito it could also be that the children gave up after dying so many times
@@chappleofflapple5086 It's possible
another point concerning the soul ability to manipulate noel (and literaly everione in your party btw) is that at the end of a snowgrave run, when kris is calling for help no one awnsers. but when "YOU" all for noelle she shows up. considering that the soul is the only way of interation we have with the world as the player, it mean thats its the soul or at least the player is giving to kris soul new abilities.
so maybe most of the stuff we know about souls is biased by our control over kris's.
for example at the end of the chapter 2 he literaly create a dark fountain without possessing the one we control.
Yeah, I completely agree with the interpretation that its US calling noelle for help and not Kris. And yeah Kris is generally just an odd topic especially because they're able to create a Dark Fountain WITHOUT the soul in them. My two best guesses for that right now are that possibly either the determination hasn't COMPLETELY left Kris's body yet (we can still see Kris moving AFTER they tear the soul out meaning they still have a little bit of life left in them to move for a brief time), or that Determination is different in this universe and isn't stored in the SOUL but actually just stored inside of people somewhere else.
@@MysticSlime Determination is stored in the balls
@@MysticSlime another possible explanation for it would be that this isn't kris's soul, and kris actually has a soul on his own, and all of the things that show that the red soul is stronger than the rest is because it isn't kris's soul at all and his actual soul is just average?
@@MysticSlime you don't need a soul for determination as shown by flowery.
"Queen has acsses to the internet" She also assumed Noelle seraching for "December Holiday" was related to christmas. Clearly she has accsees to data but doesn't nessrly have true knowlage to nesserly use it effectivley.
According to comments I read here, I think it's possible to assume that Darkners are basically just like Flowey. Soulless but with the will to live brought by determination... So they live
Flowey is a lifeless flower with no will to live or purpose. But the determination gave it a will to live and Asriel's dust a purpose
Darkners are inanimate objects we use in our everyday life, whatever it is a real object or a computer program. They do have a purpose but it's a purpose that gives them a task to accomplish, not the will to live. However, when the fountain injects them with determination anyway, they now have the will to live. Like Flowey, they mutate to take a living form and then to make up for what's missing -the purpose-, the traces of the lightners' activities done with them is now used as such (hence why King wants revenge on the Lightners after they gave up the old classroom or why Queen wants to protect them because she knows how important the Internet is to them due to how much time they spent searching anything on it)
Taking that into account, if we theorize into Chapter 3 and if the TV does end up being the main antagonist (whatever it is Mike or not), there's a high chance that it will have a massive respect for/knowledge of Kris. As the Dreemurr's TV, standing in the "middle" of the living room, he saw everything Kris went through up until Susie's sudden arrival in their life. Hell, you could even think that the reason why Mike/the TV will be the main antagonist is because he thinks something is weird with Susie as he knows for a fact that Kris's close friend group is pretty much limited to Noelle and Asriel and they'll both have to prove to him that Susie is a good and honest friend while Ralsei is left in the background, like in Chapter 2
TL;DR: Darkners and Flowey are possibly the same. Liveless objects that were given the will to live thanks to determination
Wow I really like that theory! I agree with pretty much all of it, I just think its not a perfect 1:1 with flowey because they can have feelings and can still experience positive emotions. That's a really good explanation all around though!
@@MysticSlime Thanks!
You're right too, they do feel emotions. Maybe Flowey don't because his purpose comes from something dead? I can't guess anything else on that. It could be that or just Toby not thinking that far
@@MysticSlime well flowey can feel emotions just not love
@@amagicalbeing7427 love relies on emotions though. But I do agree, Flowey did say he had fun sometimes when hanging out with Papyrus for example. I’m thinking maybe the fact that it was Asriel’s dust, along w/ determination, that made things a bit different.
Maybe the vessel being inanimate has nothing to do with making him lack emotions. Maybe he was just severely depressed and there was no way out for him.
Regarding the lack of emotions, The inanimate objects given life were recently given life, whereas Flowey didn’t, and had memories of the past. They also had the company of other inanimate objects, and their own world to inhabit. He didn’t really have a purpose in life anymore too. He died, His parents were also divorced and his sibling was dead. When Chara was brought back to life in the bad route (maybe by DT?) and gained purpose cuz of the player killing everyone, but maybe Flowey couldn’t find anything anymore, esp cuz he couldn’t die.
His body could’ve been incompatible with his vessel as well. Might’ve created some body dysphoria.
It could very well be severe depression, where things that were fun weren’t fun anymore because his soul was incompatible with his new vessel. Life became meaningless, he did everything with everyone and nothing surprises him anymore. And he attempted to end his life.
14:16 During chapter 2, there is outage of internet in town, so her informations might not be 100%... Believable
Oh wow really? I completely missed that detail actually! Even so, it's been established that Dark Worlds and Darkners technically still exist even before their dark fountain was made (Seam references the next chapter's secret boss and Jevil references Queen), so she's definitely had access to the internet before.
There's not internet because the cyber world is the internet
@@AnimationJ Nah, Alphys talks about it in class. It's an issue that probably started a few days before the events of the game.
Actually, I think that the SOUL used in Undertale is actually the same SOUL used in Deltarune, due to the fact that it (we) seems to recognize Sans and know about Papyrus. We also help Undyne deliver to Alphys, despite (if I am remembering properly) her not giving a description of who they were for.
It also retains the yellow SOUL mode which it only had in UT due to Alphys upgrading your phone.
My theory so far as to why the red soul is like this is because it was supposed to go to the Vessel you made at the start of the game, hence why so much revolves around it. But since that Vessel was discarded, it needed a new host in order to complete...whatever we're doing here. So someone most likely chose the closest thing to our Vessel (Kris), and forcefully inserted it into them, which would explain why Kris keeps trying to rip the darn thing out. Beyond that though, that's all I have.
Yeah, I've been trying to figure out for a while how exactly the red soul got to Kris in the actual light world side of things. I agree that someone may have had to sneak in and literally insert the soul into Kris, but its really sketchy and we don't know much about it.
@@MysticSlime Maybe Kris found it on their own, maybe one of the voices shoved it in there. Either way, it's there now.
Maybe the soul was meant for the vessel, but as it was discarded for kris instead it acts like a different entity from kris as the soul wasn't meant for them. It's still kris' soul and they cannot live without it however the soul wasn't made for them making body and soul not match goals and personalities as they're effectively different beings.
Something else is notable about Kris' soul is that it can change it's color on command, we see this in the Spamton Neo fight when it turns yellow, in Undertale, Frisk needed the assistance of something or someone else to actually change color, some examples of this is that they need the help of Papyrus or other monsters to turn it blue, or Undyne to turn it green, and lastly, the upgraded phone Alphys gives us to turn yellow, the fact that Kris can do this without any assistance is something we have never seen, and it's not that it was awakened when he needed to protect his friends or anything, as in the snowgrave route, he just turns it yellow immediately, which means that Kris has had this ability and knows how to use it, just doesn't feel the need to use it...
Yeah its a very mysterious thing, I still dont know why the soul turns yellow like that myself. Just another inexplicable thing the soul does I guess
Forgot that Muffet turns your heart purple...
Yea and he actually had a charge shot, so even better than undertale
What pluses will have if there are more soul mechanics? I like to think on that
I think Determination is completely separate from the SOUL. If you look back at the ending of Chapter 2, Kris opens the Dark Fountain without having their SOUL.
But there is Kris’s soul and the players soul, kris would still have a soul
@@asteroid889 There doesn't appear to be multiple SOULs, as Kris' moves very strangely without having it in them. I believe Kris is able to move using nothing but their Determination.
You don’t need a soul for determination, flowey proved that.
I think some essence of determination from the soul leaked into Kris, letting them move on their own without a need for the soul for a short period of time
@@Gurglmshurv that could be why their eye is glowing red
There's a dialogue back in chp 1 when Susie first joins the party where Ralsei directly says that only Kris can seal the fountains.
Which is very interesting.
IIRC in Undertale monsters weren't able to wield Determination because of their bodies' lack of physical bodies so perhaps that is why they can now wield determination.
This reminds me of the "Undertale is a dark world theory". The conclusion you drew, that lightner (Monsters) have determination due to their absence of monster magic in the light world feels important. As lightner (monsters) perhaps lose their physical state of being that they may posses above ground, while in the dark world, allowing them to use magic like undertale. And so, with their body structure changed, they'd be unable to manifest enough determination to close pre-existing dark portals, locking them self away all the same. Just a more large scale manifestation in undertales case, multiple humans perhaps tearing the earth apart to cast them into the depths.
I'm not the biggest fan of the Undertale being a dark world theory, but I can't deny the many parallels between the dark worlds and underground. I didn't think of the possibility of monsters changing physical form when entering a Dark World however, and its certainly an interesting idea. After all, all the lightners do get new clothing and Kris even turns blue, something which shouldn't be a normal skin tone for humans to have (well, at least if they're ALIVE anyways). Maybe you're right and lightners change more than simply their clothes when entering a dark world.
@@MysticSlime I think I read once that there was a family with a genetic anomaly which, in addition to causing some health problems, also made them a bit blue looking?
Edit: the blue Fugates . They lived in Kentucky.
@@drdca8263 Oh, thats interesting! Still definitely a unique case though
@@MysticSlime interesting, though I might add that so far we've only seen 3 humans in total of which 2 of them were yellow. Who says in undertale/deltarune humans can't have a bunch of diffrent skin colours? So blue humans might very well be a thing (even if the colours change in deltarune All for all).
At the start of the battle you can see the soul shoot out from Kris with red and white outlines to the middle of the battle area.
In the vs Susie fight the soul still flies from Kris' direction despite him not being at the battle.
What if Darkners actually use the Dark Fountain that they're born from as a substitute for a SOUL?
I mean, there's also the fountain that's made of Pure Darkness, but I'm assuming that's because it's the original, therefore all Darkners are born from it.
I'm open to new ideas.
It seems as though in Undertale, not every human can use magic, or they simply don't and use soul power as a means of substitution, In Deltarune this still seems to ring true, the only time you can "use magic" as Kris is combination attacks in the case of King or when you're all alone like with Spamton, and even then it counts as "ACT" it's usually others who use magic, not to mention - the very system in which you get to cast magic (TP) seems just a bit off, giving the whole party access to it rather than just the one with the soul or we see at least.
Unless ACT ~ Magic (it's just named different and has slightly different properties.)
Then again, I'm just throwing ideas at a dartboard and could be completely missing
ACT (in the character menu) is listed as a 0% TP spell in Kris's otherwise empty spell list. According to its description, "it isn't magic".
I think human "magic" isn't actually based on magic as in the substance of monsters, just like you said. Monsters may just interpret it such since humans seemed back then to draw from their souls to cast mystical attacks, spells in general and such, and they're correct but only partially. In reality, the spells draw from the souls traits.
Spamton is the first Darkner to show his SOUL. So it's possible, their SOULs are "custom". By that I mean, they're their own size, they have something drawn on them, a shape. Like Spamton's face on his own SOUL, that's what I mean. I wonder if Ralsei and Susie have upside down SOULs, considering those are monster SOULs.
The Neo body was made "with a lightner's will," meaning it's either a more primitive soul or just fake.
@@cyber_dragon_123 that's true, I've heard that, but if you talk to the guy in the cafe after the Spamton NEO fight and click "Robot suit" he also mentions that Spamton _found_ the robot suit. But why would it have a soul like that? Pretty much confusing, or maybe the robot suit upgrades it's "custom" robot SOUL to have your face if you're uploaded into it with the disk.
@@gneu1527 Spampton corrupts and brands the Walls of the basement and the rest of the mansion on the weird route and considering we put his software (mind) on there, I wouldn’t be surprised if he changed it
Assuming mettaton neo and mettaton EX are similar, the soul of spamton with the chain may be more of a container, since the heart in mettaton EX I assume isn’t the ACTUAL soul of mettaton, or at least a container. But this is just speculation.
@@gneu1527 We aren't sure that it's actually Spamton's SOUL. It could just be an actual physical object that he warped somehow, much like he changes the NEO body to have his face and brands the background of the NEO fight with buildings in the shape of his head.
4:21 so hear me out.. you know how when people get out of a coma they struggle to walk or move for a bit after? Maybe its just that kris hasnt been in control of their body for a while.
My biggest question is why can't Susie close fountains by herself despite being a lighter, why do you specifically need ,,a human soul" to close them and despite Queen thinking Noelle or Bergly can open a fountain , so far we haven't seen anyone that lacks a ,, human soul" open one whit the implication that Kris opened both the Librarby and TV dark worlds .
Edit : Ok Ralsey also seems to think it's possible so that's why he warned Berghley not to do it and sinse Ralsey is by far the most knowledgeable person in this game (outside characters we know nothing about like Kris and G@$&er) I'm inclined to believe you only need determination to open them but require a ,,human soul" to close them(monsters can in fact use determination to very limited extent in a Dark World presumably)
Edit Edit :
Well ok then you mostly covered everything i was interested in from this video GG.
It is easy to pop balloons hard to fix one
Maybe it's because your soul has to exit your body and monsters have a harder time doing that
I Think That It Was Pretty Obvious That Monster Souls Are Different From Human Souls. I Mean She Literally Admits When Fighting Kris And Ralsei That She Needs Kris In Order To Close The Fountain In Chapter One.
Because Kris Has light inside their soul. And by that i mean a lot of it.
I personally believe that the souls work VERY differently in deltarune, because in undertale you can turn into the "yellow" state to shoot things by using your upgraded phone, but if you were to fight spamton neo, it wouldn't need a phone to turn you into the "yellow" state, this could mean that the red soul is frisk or the player's who both are very knowledgeable about the yellow state, so they could easily just turn yellow since they remember it existing and how it works.
I like the theory that its the Player SOUL we may see it change to other Colored SOUL powers directly from Undertale. It is a "different universe" but the game is likely in deep connection with Deltarune despite Toby saying otherwise. He does enjoy "False narrator" style
I'm pretty sure ralsei's soul will be different from the other darknes
I agree! Either that or the item that Ralsei represents is a very unique object in some way.
@@MysticSlime maybe that headband kris lost?
@@MysticSlime
thats if ralsei is a item at all , remember starwalker has no lightworld counterpart
It’s amazing how people can come up with stuff like this from one book and another game vaguely linked to it
I have a theory, and it’s that “Ralsei” is a lightner as well, or is an extension of kris, or possibly someone who lives in the dark world? Perhaps things like childhood imaginary friends, exist in the dark world as lightners because they are made from a lightners mind, aka kris’s mind but also cannot exist as a separate entity in the light world. Ralsei has to be different from other Darkners because he doesn’t turn to stone while Lancer and Rouxl turns into stone, which leads me to the conclusion that Ralsei is in the dark world and is either a person living inside the dark world, or he simply isn’t able to leave as a separate entity. (Also we have never had a darkner on are team, like Noelle, Susie, and also Berdly have all used magic and battled before but Ralsei can as well, and also gets damaged when kris gets hit just like Susie.
Thank you VERY much for making this video! You helped me realize something that will very much be relevant in my next theory! I also very much appreciate the shout-out! I would like to point out one extra option for your discussion here. A "fifth" possibility, if you will. What if the BODIES of monsters work differently in this world? The whole reason they couldn't handle Determination in UNDERTALE was because of their magical bodies, right? So, if they have blood (as Susie implies) and thus have physical bodies, then wouldn't that imply they should be capable of enduring Determination now? Food for thought! Thanks again for the shout-out! Great video!
Hey, I'm glad you saw the video and thank you so much! I'm happy that it helped in your own theory, it's so cool to see the community bounce off each other like this! I also think that possibility is pretty likely, and I completely forgot about Susie implying monsters have blood thing too. I guess the reason I didn't think of that is because in Undertale monsters souls and bodies are very closely tied, as their bodies are made of monster magic from their souls. You bring up a great point with the blood thing though, and I'm interested to see the next theory! Love your vids and keep up the good work :)
I believe monsters in Undertale can actually have determination whitout melting, for example, Undyne seems able to generate her own determination, and she dosn't melt until she gets kill. Even her Undying form, a transformation seemingly born out of her determination to stop you, dosn't you any signs of melting until after you deal a huge amount of damage to her body. It's true that the amalgamates melted just days after they were injected with determination, but they were basically dead to begin with.
The only evidence we have of monsters not being able to hold determination is entry number 17 on the true lab, wich not only is written by alphys at a point she barely knew what was happening, but it isn't even on the actual game.
What i'm trying to say is that maybe monsters can hold determination normaly, and the melting is not a direct result of having determination, but what happens when determination keeps the monster alive when they die despite said monster not having enough magic left in their soul to keep their body from shattering
Sir put apostrapis i almost ran out of breath trying to read it
Try to learn english before commenting please.
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 sorry, i get too exited and forget to double check my horible grammar
@@tadeolaguarda6965
I'm sorry too, i was very rude with you.
But still, it's very hard to understand what you were trying to say.
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 i will try writing more carefully, though to be honest i am only good at understanding english, not at writing or speaking it
If Dark fountains can only be created by beings with SOULs, and they can only be closed by a human SOUL, then what about the ""discarded"" vessel?
They COULD be the one going around opening fountains and could be the Knight.
Also Monsters had determination in Undertale. Just a vastly smaller amount than humans (hence why they can open dark fountains but NOT close them).
I have a theory about why Kris goes against your will after you seal the fountain: The soul absorbs the dark fountains, but doing so makes Kris possessed by the Knight, but the possession wears off after a while, so that is why Kris slashed the tires and started the fountain, but the reason why Kris does not initially go berserk is because the Knight needs to stay undercover.
That's an interesting theory honestly! My only problem with it is that the game describes it as "sealing" fountains and not necessarily absorbing them, although I guess that some Darkners could be lying or oblivious as to what's actually going on with them. Either that or maybe absorbing them is what Kris actually needs to do in order to seal them.
Thanks!
Why on earth would the Knight eat pie, turn on the TV, blow tires, or do any of the random stuff that Kris does at the end of Chapter 2?
Or would create a fountain... In the living room of one of the heroes...?
Maybe the Knight likes pie, and wants to make his dark world better, and attract the police, being able to kill more lightners.
@@nerdyboy5490 So why didn't he kill Berdly and Noelle despite the fact that they were asleep while the fountain was being created?
The whole “fate of the world “ thing in the red soul seems like determination since in undertale it’s the ability to change fate
Personally I think when a dark fountain is created determination from the lightner that made it trickles down to the objects making new beings kinda like flowey.
all of this can be questioned too, for example it’s stated kris cannot live without the soul, or at least is incredibly weak without it. but burghley stated kris has the third best grades in class without studying, implying they’re probably smart enough to just fake it to trick the player.
Possibly, but even if they're book smart trying to trick a being outside their universe and probably can't even comprehend is something I doubt even the adults of the universe could hope to do
@@MysticSlime is it really that incomprehensible? a being like ralsei understands lightners just fine, and videogames already exist in the world so comparisons would exist. plus the adults have no clue on the matter, so their ability to comprehend is unknown. i mean if “let’s close our eyes and imagine what susie’s doing” is enough to trick them, i think some teenager could do it too.
@@goatsfluffy8254 yeah thats fair LOL, just depends on how much Kris really knows about the situation.
@@MysticSlime You forget two things, the red eye flash at the screen, and Kris being able to rip out the Player Soul.
Both of which are only able to be done if you know things and possibly even know magic unless Kris has a literal hole on them. Kris knows more about the rules of the world then we do.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 truee
I guess at least determination works differently. Determination in Undertale has several functions: keeps living beings alive even when they should die, like Undyne (the Undying), amalgamates and Frisk during Asriel fight. It can also allow users to manipulate timelines (flowey and the fallen humans), which is represented by saving and loading. However in Deltarune, the function of determination becomes creating dark fountains which converted an area into dark worlds, and none of the save points in Deltarune mentions determination, I think it's obvious that determination in these two games works a lot differently.
Correction, Ralsie didn't tell Kris the red soul was his. He told the Player the red soul is ours. The red soul is the player and we have not seen souls for any of the characters
I think the red soul’s close connection to determination is exclusive to it, as we can see other humans in undertale have less determination and died without being able to respawn, I think monsters can harness determination but in far less amounts on their own, when the red soul shines it’s power to the other lighteners it lets them harness more determination than they already can and use more attacks. Since they can harness it they are lighteners, darkners are inanimate objects that were brought to life by the fountain, which is most likely made from determination, which might explain why Kris can seal it, the red soul is tied to determination and absorbs all the determination from it and the fountain stops working
When Toriel asks you about which kind of pie you like
If you choose one and then reset the next time she asks you, she will interrupt you when you say your choice and ask you if it is (the choice you picked last time) if you say yes she will xay something about her knowing humans when they come out even tho she just met them now this could be flowey but flowey was made from determination injected into a flower the dt most likely came from a human, so a human had to come before flowey and reset for toriel to feel like she knew them, asgore also nods if you tell him that he killed yours so there is the possibility the humans before you told him something similar they may have just lost their dt and given up
It's possible the rules in DeltaRune are totally altered from UnderTale. I like to think of Deltarunes world as a complete remix of Undertales. Something akin to Majora's mask where the lore and functions of that world are different but parallel Hyrule's
That's a good way of thinking about it! Toby himself has made it clear that Undertale and Deltarune are very separate things, but also confirmed that there may still be connections between the two games. How deep this goes (like whether its just easter eggs or deep lore implications) still remains to be seen though.
@@MysticSlime I hope there's tangible connections.
I know multiverses are all the rage nowadays but I low-key want a gasterverse lmao
It could also be the amount of DT needed to create a dark fountain, like what if the amount of DT needed to make a fountain is not enough to melt someone?
Or option 5: What's being misunderstood is the amount of determination required to make a fountain. Maybe the amount of determination you need is safe for monsters. Undyne had lots of determination way before falling apart, monsters can be quite determined, just not enough to alter time and reanimate.
I wanna think the main soul traits like this. everybody has a certain amount of every trait. But one always comes out dominant
After a bit of thinking and the reading of @nerdyboi5 ‘s comment, i believe that the knight could have been a darkner created from the very first fountain (presumably created by Ralsei or Gaster if he has a part in this) that decided to connect itself to the dark fountains so that if a lightner were to be strong enough to close a portal a small part of the knight would come in with the dark energy. After enough fountains are sealed, the knight would create a replica soul of Kris’s (though the red soul probably doesn’t belong to him) and split itself off from the red soul. After the knight infuses itself with the replica soul, it would be able to travel to the light world and wreak havoc. There are a few weak points in this small theory, but i thought it’d be nice to share my thoughts.
I just thought of a good theory about the fountains and souls:
Remember how monsters could only absorb human souls and humans could only absorb monster souls? What if the reason only a human soul can seal a dark fountain is because they are created using monster souls and absorbing the soul makes you stronger and seals the fountain? And the reason only the grand fountain is compatible with all darkners is because it was made using a human soul which is more powerful than a monster soul? This could explain why Kris's original soul seems to be missing. It's inside the grand fountain but Kris can't just go there and get it because humans can't absorb human souls. There must be way to switch souls though because Kris already switched their original soul with the player's soul. I know that this theory is a bit far fetched but if accepted as true it would explain a lot.
For example the reason Spamton went for the fountain at the end of Snowgrave is because he could absorb the soul (since he isin't monster or human, kind of like flowey) and live in the light world. And if this theory is true, the Knight is probably killing monsters to create the dark fountains. Now, you might ask why Ralsei tried to stop Berdly from creating a fountain even though he didn't have an extra soul to create the fountain. butI think that Ralsei knew that he wouldn't be able to create a fountain but stopped him anyways because he didn't want to encourage them to create dark fountains because remember, Kris has a monster soul from the fountain in chapter 1(and they obviously didn't listen to Ralsei).
I wonder if there is a connection with how Kris-the player can only see the save points and thus shouldn't their dt be higher than everyone else?
Determined “enough” is not a specific number, maybe darkner souls are even WEAKER and less determined than monster souls
I'm curious as to how kris was able to make the fountain while soulless. Is determination stored in the body now? Do they have a second, weakened soul which actually belongs to them instead of us but still holds their individual determination? Is our strength not the kind that can make a fountain?
I think that monsters can/dochave determination, probably much less than humans. They stay intact for long periods of time since the monsters with enough determination only melt when they are dying (the amalgams were monsters that were dying and undyne started melting after nearly dying). I also think it varies from human to human and from monster to monster, which is why queen chose noelle as the one to help start the roaring
Yeah thats a fair point. Monsters technically do have a LITTLE bit of DT, but not enough to the point of any meaningful impact (unless your name is Undyne LOL)
@@MysticSlime well, we could say the same about undertale humans
Unless your name is frisk xD
I know this was BEFORE the spampton sweeptakes but from the spoilers of the Shadow men enemies, we see Little souls turn in to bullets to remove the socks off the shadowmen.
Either Toby Fox Just either used to soul as placeholder or didnt wanna make a bullet Sprite and Just used the Red soul Sprite.
Or maybe thats 1 new thing we know human souls can do, other than turning Yellow and shooting actual bullets. Might be Just visual effect buts idk
I think that Ralsei mentioning the SOUL holding the fate of the world reminds me of the niggling idea I had about Kris already having a SAVE file before the player writes over it. I think there's going to be an alternate ending that can only be acquired by doing a no-SAVE run of the game, completing it as... well, Kris. Our choices don't matter in this world after all, maybe not even the choices we make for others, like Noelle in the Weird Route, but no one said anything about Kris' choices. The fate of the world won't depend on what we DO in the game, but who's SOUL we use to get there.
Oooooooooo i love theory videos and that you branch out to different content (not to say i didnt like your other content i also love that) keep it up!
Same
Thank you, I appreciate it!
there is something you forgot
in just before spamton neo's fight , spamton implies that he would take both susie's and ralsei's souls
I did forget about this! However the way its worded doesn't necessarily imply that Ralsei has a soul:
Spamton talks about a "3 for one special", but this doesn't mean 100% that they all have souls and also doesn't really reference their souls at all. He DOES say that "someone left their SOULs lying around", but its possible the "souls" plural here simply refers to Kris and Susie's soul.
@@MysticSlime what if Kris has 2 souls? The red soul, and another one? (I Haven’t played it so perhaps something makes this clearly implausible idk)
Currently in 9:30 (nothing specific about the spot i just mentioned it incase this is mentioned later)
And spoilers for chapters 2
Determination is the likely thing thats different in deltarune, since yeah kris is shown to struggle to move with their soul but we also see them use Determination without a soul seeing that they make a dark fountain at the end of chapters 2, since in undertale the only "souless" character flowey had to be injected with Determination to live, yet kris can still function and create the fountain without a soul
Well, it was said that only human souls could close the fountains...
That's my bad for not mentioning that. I thought that was the case when writing the script for this video, but couldn't find where they actually SAID only human souls could seal it so I didn't want to put in information I didn't know was 100% accurate or not.
@@MysticSlime It was said that only Kris' soul could close the fountain. There must be a reason why Susie doesn't try to close one by herself.
@@jutorle Yeah I'm not entirely sure. The only reason I don't conclude "well it must be human souls only" is because Kris's soul also seems very unique in a lot of other ways which may not apply to ALL human souls. Its kind of hard to tell since Kris is the only human we see, but since the Red Soul in Undertale was very unique compared to the other human souls I think that the same could apply to the red soul we see in Deltarune.
I find the discussion of darkners and whether they have souls to be very very interesting.
Chapter 2 basically confirms that darkners themselves are personified objects created upon the opening of a dark fountain, a geyser of darkness (and possibly magic? Darkners use magic bullets like monsters do on both Undertale and Deltarune, idk). A dark fountain requires enough determination to be opened however.
Inanimate objects being brought to life with determination is not entirely new ground. A major part of Undertales plot and lore was the creation of Flowey, a flower with Asriels essence injected with DT that lacks a soul. So this means darkners are soulless right? Well, yes but actually no. Alphys never needed a dark fountain to animate a flower in UT, and the changes made to Flowey aren’t quite like that of a darkner transformation, so while it’s a good comparison, using Flowey is not exactly the answer to whether or not darkners have souls.
Ralsei’s Manual provides a little more insight though, while using the Manual as canon could be dubious at best, there isn’t much info at the moment outside of it. Ralsei wrote down that the dark fountain is what gives him form, in other words, the body he possesses in the dark world is generated by the fountain of pure darkness, his home fountain, which obviously matches with all the other darkners being given form by the fountains they originated from. But no mentions of a SOUL giving Ralsei or the darkners life.
The book 1 on souls in the library mentions that the soul is the keeper of life force. So in the case of darkners, what happens to their souls when they get turned back into regular objects? Or when their fountain is sealed, or when they turn into stone? Do their souls cease to exist? And if they get revived by the pure fountain, how does that work? So far we have ZERO evidence to hint at the idea that a beings soul can be restored outside of erasing and resetting the world in either games.
With all this in mind and more. I don’t t think darkners have souls, but rather that their life force is derived from the dark fountains that created them or from castle town, hence why they turn to stone when in other dark worlds, their not compatible with the dark fountain of that region and can’t draw life force from it, while Ralsei is compatible with all dark fountains, coming from the one that all darkners are compatible with, it only makes sense that he’d be able to draw life force from other dark fountains as a result.
Whew that was a doozy, hopefully I got my thoughts across 😅
I think darkness and determination are the same thing. Darkners don’t have souls or determination of their own so they rely on dark fountains to make it for them.
Remind yourself that basically EVERYTHING that Queen knew about opening Dark Fountains was pure guesswork, based upon what she saw. Literally the only thing she knows is that the Knight was a lightner, had a knife, filled it with willpower/DT, and thrusted it into the ground. Her picking Noelle as a suitable Knight replacement isn't because she knew that Noelle, nor monsters in general, would have the DT capable of doing it, it's just because she knew that the Knight was a lightner. Plus, she didn't have access to the internet for the entire time that her Dark World was opened, meaning she didn't have the capability to check or research anything specific after she learned how the Knight did it, for example, she wouldn't have been able to search "do monsters have determination" unless she randomly did that before the dark world was opened. Plus, the monsters who had their lives extended via Determination research in Undertale are all dead in Deltarune, since they all have graves, meaning that the DT research was likely never actually done, so that information on DT is most likely not widely available.
You stopped watching the video and ignored everything said.
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 buddy, I've been theorizing almost daily for the past 9 months. I watch every theory video I can get my hands on.
@@krazyivan9733
That does not make your word law.
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 that also doesn't make your counterargument valid.
@@krazyivan9733
My point is that the video addresses what you said and your comment is worthless, like your opinion, and you yourself.
If you continue with the theory series, I would like to see some attention given to Shawm's knowledge of secret bosses and the shadow mantle.
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll definitely make a theory covering this sometime in the future (or at least that references it)
my interpretation of kris' soul always being the one dodging is that if it weren't for their soul then they wouldn't be able to dodge at all, you can see how susie cannot dodge when you fight her, soul dodging would just be an ability specifics to humans and other people capable of replicating it through other means (sans)
even in undertale, monster soul had determination, just in a WAY smaller amount, the waterfall text and asriel breaking the barrier proove it, the sum of all the monsters's soul's determination equals that of a human soul
undyne didn't have a just little bit of determination, she was determined enough to SURVIVE DEATH, you can't act as if _this_ prooves monsters are 100% intolerant to determination, in fact do you know who else has their body melting after absorbing a ton pf determination?? chara at the end of the genocide route when she's about to kill you when you refuse, you know, the human! do you know who else has their body melting after getting injected a ton of determination theough souls? flowey during the first neutral ending, you know , the flower!
melting is just a regular reaction to absorbing a TON of determination
the problem is darkners can dodge if we tell them to. so how does that work. also flavor text in Undertale says asgore dodged all of undynes attacks.
@@mrboerger1620 oh yeah I forgot about the undyne dodge thing and the warn thing, I remember thinking about these and not having any good explanation for these so I guess my theory is dead again
Flowey did melt? Can't remember xD
I love thinking that monsters can have deteremination, i mean everybody be like "yea monsters can't stand as much DT as humans"
And I only saw one human with a lot of determination in undertale, and the true lab where they concluded that monsters can't have DT because they melt. I mean, they were dying! (XD) maybe there are monster that can, and can't stand DT, but the same goes for humans
@@xxsupersayen34xxnoe33 nooo it's not dead, i love it xD
Maybe in undertale, monster vs monsters fights are not the same i don't remember that happening in the game
And the darkners dodging is another way of replicating, like sans
Great theory! I love it!
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
I kinda had the idea that what Queen mentioned wasn't about the injectable substance that allows the soul to persist after death in Undertale. I think she meant the most normal drive to achieve something. And I think Monsters, even in Undertale, are capable of that normal determination. In that case, the only requirement would indeed just be being a Lightner. Even if souls work the same way they do in Undertale, with that interpretation a lot can be explained.
I think that human & monster souls in general are the same in some ways as Undertale souls but also different in some other ways too. Like we know Kris can't use magic in Deltarune (which lines up with Frisk not being able to do it in Undertale either) but we also can assume that Deltarune monsters can create fountains because of the Berdly scene where you litterly see energy coming to his halberd when he attempts to make a dark fountain which kind of has to mean that Deltarune monsters have to have AT LEAST a little amount of *natural* DETERMINATION inside them that their bodies CAN handle (unlike Undertale monsters who only can only have DT if it's injected into their bodies which are also bodies not made to be able to contain that substance). My explanation for why monsters can't seal fountains while Kris can is because Monster souls like in Undertale might still not be able to expose their souls outside their body without dying in Deltarune's universe too which is quite an important detail 'cause Kris' soul has to LEAVE Kris' body in order to SEAL the fountains, but when Kris CREATES a fountain at the end of Chapter 2 and when Berdly almost CREATES one in Chapter 2 we see that their souls DON'T need to leave their body in order for the CREATION of a fountain unlike when SEALING one.
Well if physical matter is what determines determination capacity you have to consider that the monsters of deltarune have lost most if not all their magic and rely on physical nourishment and technology to survive. Theoretically that means their bodies are much more solid than the monsters in Undertale.
Based on UT monsters can use/have DT. The only monsters we ever see "melting" from DT are the Amalgamtes(who were monsters that had "fallen down" which is safe to assume means dying or terminally ill) and Undyne when she's about to die, she has no problem maintaining her physical form during her genocide fight. But they likely still can't take much or do so for long.(based on Alphys' logs the amalgamates seemed to be fine initially, but ended up melting together later)
Ok so I think:
when a lightner makes a dark fountain, they put part of their soul into it. The dark fountain pours life-force to the darkners.
Darkners appear to work more similarly to the monsters of Undertale rather than the monsters of Deltarune to their own counterparts, they use magic naturally, are far weaker than the average lightner, don't have any determination, they even turn to dust if killed, etc. The new monsters may be a new kind of middle point, able to use determination due to a stronger body (similar to Flowey or Undyne the undying) and only able to use magic in the Darkworld, but still not as strong as a human soul.
Hey I _seem_ to remember Ralsei being the only non-lightner to verbally say differences in humans & monsters. Alsp Ralsi is described as a "dark world being" rather than a "darkner" so it doesn't seem right to lump him in with the darkners just yet (also he can teleport)
Wait, when'd he teleport?
@@djtempest0 well how else did Ralsei reach chapter 2's dark world?
@@brawlfan Yeah, I may or may not have forgot about that...
For the Darkners, we could honestly say the respective dark fountain is their soul, their lifeforce. Without it they just go back to objects.
In Undertale Monsteres bodies can't handel the determiation to house determination without getting melted together BUT in Deltrarune Monsters are implied to have blood.
Perhaps there is a consisteny where Magic based bodies can't house determantion but flesh and blood can, and Monster in deltarun are blood based like the humans in deltarune.
What if the SOULS are the same but it's the monsters BODIES that are diffrent?
10:18 I'm not too sure but I believe that darkners don't require a dark fountain in order to live the reason why is because many of the darkners like seam and spamton seem to have history with other darkners, seam seems to have a long history with jevil before he locked him up, talking about their friendship before jevil was corrupt by someone. Seam also explains how the darkners and lightners coexist but then the lightners trapped them in the dark world never to return. Seam also tells us that he has been collecting items for years now. Spamton on the other hand appears to have met some darkners from other dark worlds like jevil. Spamton used to be a star around cyber world before his fame disappeared. Many of the other darkners like Ralsei appear to have certain knowledge that a unanimated object just being reanimated wouldn't have. This is why I believe that darkners don't require a dark fountain in order to obtain a soul but rather all darkners have there own completely separate soul compared to monsters and humans. (Flaw, all the darkners could have obtained their knowledge in the past when lightners and darkners live together and many other events like spamtons fame or jevil going mad could have happened during those years when darkners and lightners lived together.)
I think this video summarize a bit of my nickpick on some Deltarune theories.
It relies too much on what we already know about Undertale and try to use it on this, which not saying is a bad thing, expecially since we just saw two chapters, but is had been clear so far that while there are stuff tied to Undertale not necessary means that it works the same way.
The souls, are we really sure that everyone has this heart shape souls and not the spiritual meaning of souls?
Because I think so far, the one out, is our Soul, the Player soul.
Which I think is a representation of the player in general and not expecifically the same one that controls Frisk, if that makes sense?
Like Frisk soul belongs to them, we just happen to control it, while the soul in Deltarune is literally us as a heart shaped object that shouldn't exist in that world.
We have the memory of what happens in Undertale and maybe that's how it takes shape or color change depending on what's the situation.
Also there are seriously people that think that Kris is possessed by the Knight?
For goodness sake, those choices was Kris doing, what happened in the end was Kris own choice, doesn't mean is suddenly evil.
My best explanation for what we know so far is that they did it to make Susie happy after their talk at the end.
Heck it could had been a little selfish wish of wanting to keep going to adventures, not necessary has to be something bad.
I hope this doesn't came out as rude, is not my intention.
what i'm thinking is that kris' soul contains multiple souls, mostly I think this because of what happens during the spamton neo fight. it's loosely based at the moment but my theory is that this isn't the only returning soul gimmick that we'll be seeing.
1:26 it's the player's soul cause when they ripped it out, they were able to move on their own... but what if the soulless Kris was being controlled by the knight?
Monsters can also absorb the souls because in the True Pacifist ending where Toriel said that Asgore will just use 1 of the soul to break the barrier and just absorbed the other 5/6 (including Determination) also in Ultratale (the game and a video made by animated zorox) Sans absorbed the Bravery soul and became Delta Sans
Here’s an idea maybe kris isn’t used to full control like how babies take a while to talk
Darkeners are the culmination for eh magic that monsters were once made out of, The Angle removes all the magic from the world and put it into another world that runs with the lighteners world, thats why monsters can't use magic outside of the Dark world, and the reason why monsters could not hold determination was because of its main source being magic and since the angel removed magic they replaced all the monsters magic physical form with one more like humans physical form and with that the monsters souls changed its composer from magic to one made of similar cloth to human souls
I feel like that the whole "darkners turn into stone" thing is kind of like how Super Sonic works in Fleetway's Sonic the Comic. According to Sonic-obsessed RUclipsr Johnny Vector, in one of the later issues in the series, Sonic and Super Sonic are separated, and Super Sonic is locked up inside a machine called the Omni-Viewer, but Super Sonic was too powerful for even the Omni-Viewer to contain. and when SS breaks out of his digital prison, he starts to lose his memory and eventually becomes docile because of how much power he used up while breaking out. Nearing the end of the comics lifespan, he starts aging really badly because of the lack of contact with the chaos emeralds. And that is what I believe to be the case with the darkners and their dark fountains. It isn't that they're separated from their world, it's that each dark fountain is as unique as a fingerprint, manifesting it as different worlds, each object in the dark world mirroring an object in the light world, and when darkners enter those new worlds, that worlds dark fountain isn't compatible with the darkner's body. The only reason they don't turn to stone in castle town being that the castle town fountain is like a universal key for every room in a hotel, instead of a regular key that would just let you into one specific room. as for the roaring, even if it's the same dark world, there would be too much darkness for the darkners bodies to handle, like how having too little water can cause you to die of dehydration, while having too much water can cause your kidneys to fail. that's my own personal head canon on how darkness works.
B̷̫̲̾Ų̸̮̌͝T̶̞́̕͠ ̴̙̽̌͝H̷͖̞͖̱̉̅̿E̵̱͛̓̆͝Ỹ̸̛̜!̵̢̻̖̬͗ ̵͍͒̈́͠T̶̯̥̱̉̂͛͝H̵̨̢̭̙̏͝Ắ̷̲T̸̺͚̕͠'̷̢̍͋̈́S̴͉̯̉ ̴͕̗̀J̶͓̟̗̋Ứ̷͚̞́̌S̷̫͎͐͒̕͠T̴̠̆ ̴̹̱̀͆̏Ḁ̵̬͉͇̓͝ ̴̧͚̬̏̓T̶̟̣͆̀̈́͝H̸̳̝̺̹͗͂̄͝E̴̢͇̾̂O̵̢̘̽̀͋́R̷͉̯͂Ỳ̷̳̓̐̊!̶̪̥͌̽͆ ̸̛̱̹̒A̵̩͛̍͝ ̶͓̘͂̃̕G̸̨̚A̶̪̩̗͔͂́̏̈A̵̛̝͕̫̅̃Ǎ̷̼͕A̶͎̫̍͐Ą̴̲̦̳̓͝Ã̶̤͉̰̯̈͘͠A̸̰̎̾͑͐A̶͓̫͐̽Ă̸̡͉̲̯̽̋̚M̴̜̠͉̞͊̑̽͘E̴̤̐͋̚ ̸̢̾̒͝Ţ̸̢̹̒͝H̵̢̫̪̯̑͊͂Ẹ̶͓͂O̵̞̜̎͛̀͐R̴͔͆̎̏͑Ỳ̵͍̩̗̆!̸̳̘͔͐̉̐̈́ ̵̱͖̇̑̓͝T̸̺̩͑̽Ḧ̵̲̟̒Ả̸̳̹̱̯Ň̸̨͕̲̈K̵̞̀̇̀͋S̵̼̅̈́ ̷̛̻̤F̸̫̑Ọ̴̇̂́̄R̵͔͆͐͆ ̸̹̰̖͊W̷̠̪̠̍A̷̬̱̎͜͜T̶͓̂Ć̴͖̦H̶͕͚͎̼́̀͝I̶̤͑͘N̸̗̱͍͆͘G̷͕̬̽!̷͚̙̂̇͗̒ͅ
Well that cap-off seems to have aged poorly, given the whole “MatPat leaving Game Theorists” thing
imagine if the reason that you dont see any humans is that all humans seperately dropped a cooking knife and opened up a dark fountain and just got dragged in
I'm under the impression that the mechanics of souls will be almost if not exactly like Undertale's mechanics. Susie learning magic from Ralsei tells me it's either genetics that allow monsters magic, or determination to learn magic gives them magic.
I think the mechanics with the red soul we control will be the most like Undertale's soul mechanics. With the introduction to yellow "Big Shot" attacks it affirms to me that we might see more soul mechanics that were in Undertale, and lots of new mechanics as well.
"Susie learning magic from Ralsei tells me it's either genetics that allow monsters magic, or determination to learn magic gives them magic."
But if that was true, wouldn't Susie (or Noelle, or Berdly) be able to use that learned magic in the light world? If the fact that she is a monster was the reason she could learn from Ralsei, why is she only able to use it in the dark world? I think it is more likely that the dark fountain gives/lends magic to the visiting lightners and to the residing darkners.
@@petrusion2827 Yeah I could see that. It's just a theory on my part, that's all this is at this point since we only have two chapters to go off of. I guess if Susie ever uses magic in the Lightner world then I'd be right in some shape or form, if she doesn't then you'd be right.
\(°
You got that impression even after all the proof against it huh, how stubborn.
That's stupid ngl
I'm nearly 100% certain that humans are not fundamentally significantly more powerful than monsters. If they were I think it would be a more noticable plot point. Kriss doesn't get discriminated for being a human. He isn't feared for being a human. Overall the differences between humans and monsters seem rather minor.
I am a firm believer that gaster has something to do with kris and their soul
There is no possible way that Kris has lived like this their entire life and shown no signs of it, there has GOT to be something that happened to them. Whether it's something about Dess, that strange door, or even onionsan, in our timeline of events there is something that happened before the events of ch1 and after Asriel left for college. Now that I mention Asriel, he may have something to do with this as well. Perhaps Asriel contacted Gaster or some otherworldly being and had something done to Kris, only for it to go terribly wrong.
Just a thought
Ain't Noelle closed second fontaine in Snow Grave route?
We don't know what kind of soul she have so maybe she got similar red soul?
But still weaker than Kris so she listen to his command
I really think you should fix the part where Susie beats up Lancer by making the soul come from Susie and making the soul a monster soul (white and upside down).
determination seems to be shareable with inanimate objects, as seen with flowery and darkners
i feel like when a monster opens a dark fountain they probably die, it's just that since souls aren't very well known about in the universe of deltarune, they probably don't know that. Hey maybe that's what happened to december holiday, she found out about the dark world, tried opening up a dark fountain and died, that's probably why they can't find her, if they were to find her they would just find a weird puddle. ok that got a bit dark.
i think deltarune monsters might be able to hold determination because their not made of magic, in undertale monsters struggled to handle determination because their bodies are made out of magic(forgot why that is but i remember it being the reason) and in deltarune monsters do not posses magic unless in the dark world (it’s also suggested that Kris might be able to use magic at some point considering they have a magic level of i think 7?? anyway no point in them having a magic level if they can’t do no spells, so can people in this universe wield magic and determination at the same time? cause susie and noel are shown on the screen when queens talking about determination, which are both known to use magic (i.e ice shock for noel and ultimate heal for susie) so maybe in this universe people can possess both? i mean in undertale human mages used to exist, so it isn’t that far fetched that something can wield magic and determination at the same time
Also, maybe determination works different in dark worlds, but the same in a light world
Mystic, can you talk a bit about Susie and her resistance to the soul's influence? That could have implications for her soul.
fun fact: Ralsei, a "Dark World Being", is the only one from a Dark World who distinguishes between Human & Monster at least once.
it’s confirmed that darkners act like the monsters in undertale when they’re defeated that turn to dust when Ralsei gets knocked down he turns to dust but not the lightners, plus there is a grave yard which is for bodies in the town so lightners act like humans and undertale while darkners act like monsters in undertale
2:58 in the few frames where the soul is going to the box it’s coming from the sell
0:19 7 diffrent colors of souls (if you include the red soul not visible in Frisk) the white ones (monsters/Noelle) red (Frisk/Kris) pink (Susie) green (Ralsei) that leave 4 more possible in Delta rune Its a long shot but worth a try
Wait, wait, what does pink represent?
I think that Dark Fountains give souls to darkeners which is how they live, but because ghere's so many it has to have the power split so thin that theu can't have DT
3:07 the soul is there because if you look at the top right, the soul comes from there and im pretty sure thats the where ralsai and kris's cells are.
Just imagine Kris's soul changing colors once in every chapter...
I think technically, since the monsters are on the surface instead of the underground, they posses more determination because they never really have to use magic, in Undertale, you can't use magic because you're a human, but in the old days it said that they used magic to cast a spell and seal the monsters underground, do maybe the surface has something to do with determination, and being in a dark mountain had to do something with magic, just like the dark world having to do something with magic
The darkners don't have DT because they didn't have any light, in Undertale they technically had light coming into the mountain at certain points, and they were just more determined
Idk, this is my theory, I thought it sounded cool but idk