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You sound like a jew apologist and fail to see the lineage of players then, and now. Who is behind political lawfare in modernity? Zionist jews. Seems you aren’t very good at connecting the dots of reality
It seems that Satan is an idea added to the religious narratives to polarize believers into an "us vs. them" or a "this is war" mentality. This is a common tactic used by narcissists to manipulate and trap people into fighting each other as it's harder to critically think when you're under such mentality (getting emotional and paranoid).
Sorry, but both of you weren't being exactly honest when it came to discussing the Genesis account... 'You can eat of any of the trees in the garden, but you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you were to eat from it, you would surely die.” ' the serpent said to the woman, “Certainly you shall not die! God knows that when you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing that which is good and that which is evil.” "You shall have to sweat to eat your bread until the day when you return to the earth, for from it you were drawn. You are dust, and unto dust you shall return.” Thus, according to God's judgement, Adam's penalty for eating from the tree of knowledge was death. Hmmm... "Who is Satan?" you ask. well, he's the adversary - the great deceiver - he is the eternal enemy of the kingdom of Christ, and everyone should fear him for that reason alone, if nothing else.
you should talk to Cliffe Alex. Even though I am an atheist myself I think he represents Christianity well. I am just interested in a conversation between you and him. Although I am not exactly sure Cliffe is much of a debater type I think he is just a preacher. Like I don't think his main thing is being a Christian apologetic
Love these conversation with Elaine Pagels. You two have a great academic chemistry and the topics are excellent. She is wonderful to listen to. I vote for making this a regular segment. She might be interested, if we’re so lucky.
if you want to know about Satan. then learn it from the Islamic perspective. because that's the truth no matter how much people hate Islam. you will know the origin of how he (iblis) became Satan. he was a the most pious of all Jinn ( creature created from smokeless fire) who used to worship god. there was a war before Adam (humans) was created. the jinn are powerful beings among other free-will creations of god. God raised iblis ranked to the angles and he was with them in the angelic court. God then sent angles to destroy the evil jinns that were creating mischief. and Iblis volunteered to come this destroy the jinns. only a few left on the earth. iblis who is a jinn then comes back with the angles. god said i am about make a ruler on earth. iblis got really happy because he thought it was him. angles does not have free will they cannot disobey god. god creates adam from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape. and breath a soul into him. then he told them prostate and bow down as a sign of respect. all the angel prostrated except of Iblis he was of the jinn. watch The Jinn Race | Story of the Devil Iblis. you will know everything.
@solidsnake8008 I understand the joke. My confusion is more philosophical. I agree that free will, on a grand scale, doesn't exist. But I don't agree that we are entirely without a say. Even Alex points to this being the case when he said, "You can will what you do, but you can not will what you will." This suggests at least some, if minuscule, amount of control and freedom in our decision-making mechanisms. (... hence the mustache lol.) Jokes aside, I would like to expand on this a little, if you don't mind. It is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. My thoughts currently, and I'm still working this out, is that whatever amout of semi-free-will (sfw for short) that we have is limited more in the present realm than in the temporal realm. Basically, the butterfly effect but for the efficacy of our decisions through time. This means we can't do much about much in a short amount of time, but the amount of control and sfw we encounter is predicate on how much time we commit to that decision. I don't think these are new ideas, I haven't studied philosophy at the level of most scholars. I'm simply trying to articulate these ideas in a way that relates to free-will and my own understanding of things.
@@Ninjaskeptic Unfortunately, I still think you fail to understand the mechanics. The neuroscience is pretty damning. Choices are made before we are aware of them (it's a separate part of the mind that later is made aware of the decision). It's that same ladder part that feels we are in control. Nurture and nature is the end all be-all. You don't have any level of decision-making. Not even "semi-free-will". you cannot act in a vacuum - in a way which doesn't align with innate and conditioned behavior. Even attempting to purposely act contrarily to your previous behaviors (in defiance of determinism) is learned by your environment, perhaps by events that drew awareness to it - and is still a product of nurture. You cannot escape it. Freewill logically makes no sense. It never did.
He's got a long way to go. FRED had a super mustache that went down to his lower lip...I tried that once and eating was a nightmare, especially something like buffalo wings
@@the_luggage Linguistic prescriptivists usually say that fewer and not less should be used with countable nouns,and that less should be used only with uncountable nouns. This distinction was first tentatively suggested by the grammarian Robert Baker in 1770, and it was eventually presented as a rule by many grammarians since then. However, modern linguistics has shown that idiomatic past and current usage consists of the word less with both countable nouns and uncountable nouns so that the traditional rule for the use of the word fewer stands, but not the traditional rule for the use of the word less.
More people need to listen to your podcasts, especially your debates. Also, Elaine has some amazing books out there. I highly recommend them to all! The Gnostic Gospels is one of my personal favorites.
*@CosmicSkeptic* Alex, I'm not sure why you didn't include Elaine Pagels's name in this video's title? I was ready to skip it, and then I noticed what looked like it might be an older-looking Elaine Pagels whom I remember enjoying on the History Channel back when I still watched TV. I'd suggest editing the video's title and including her name, there might be others who just skip through if they don't recognise her and don't see her name like I almost did.
I know this discussion is about Satan's origin, but when discussing where we get our current depiction of Satan from, I'm surprised Dante's "Inferno" wasn't brought up.
I think Dante’s inferno had more influence on the concept of hell as opposed to the character of Satan as he’s just depicted as a three headed demon chewing on three biggest traitors of history while also being punished himself. Not many depictions of Satan tend to fit that description.
I think Satan's red depiction significantly derives from the appearance of a sun-burned person; as in, burned by eternal resistance to the presence of God's light.
I like when Elaine says “At its best, Christianity is about Love, but there’s an undercurrent in it that allows for hate.” I found that to be very thought provoking. It’s also cool that she’s more than 3 times his age, and they can have a cool conversation people of any age can enjoy
Tell it. I am a mom of five boys. They are diverse in their thinking. One is Christian and I would love to sit down with him to share the fact that the hassle is real when it comes to being a Christian as man's common sense may have created what we believe in. This young man is blessed as it sounds like he has taken Jiddu Krishnamurti"s advice in his book, Freedom From The Known. We are conditioned.
@joshuasheets9236 The undercurrent is not in Christianity. The people who call themselves Christians are who Elaine is challenging, not Christianity itself. Christianity teaches love on its own. it is just what it is. Love. Humans make images about anything, and then it stands between them and actual thing. Even love and especially love. Leave love alone if you are a human being. No one has taught man how to love, and the one who wanted to come and teach thru Christianity to many is not a man but a son of God. He has what it takes to love and hate, but without bias, one hopes. Others fear that his death was engineered, so he did not get to the end of his divine plan to teach love to humans.The rest of us is just a question of time before what we call love is useless. Those who are familiar with shakespeare's play Measure for Measure will see this clearly how this is so through it. If you are not great at understanding it, why don't you watch a review on it by Michael Sugrue. He will help you read between the lines. He did it for me. Elaine has helped me to open my eyes a bit wider while seeking to know something.
It's really telling of the human development of christianity, that the early church *blamed* Judas and/or Satan for getting crucified. Clearly, *that* doctrine developed before the story that Jesus' death was *necessary,* all a part of God's plan.
@@EattheApple666 Except Jesus (or more likely his fans) revised the rules, and said "take no thought for the morrow". Because, you know, the world was going to end Any Minute Now™.
@@RaiderDave42069 Indeed. Altho Jesus' idea of YOLO was to sell everything, give the money away, and wander the desert with him. Not a very popular lifestyle these days.
@tsdvaks I agree, and different groups of people follow different dangerous ideologies and become useful idiots for the government because they listen to silly stories from the media and schools. Manipulation is strong. God have mercy on them.
Thank you for sharing this interview with us Alex. I will be watching soon. I'm just glad for your inquiry on the matter and for your valuing of dialogue, because dialogue is an action of unity. So thanks!
The saying/joking around Alex's moustache, which kills all rationale is that the first task of the devil or his modus vivendi is to convince us that he does not exist. As long as you believe that, all acces to such a meaningful talk is closed.
if you want to know about Satan. then learn it from the Islamic perspective. because that's the truth no matter how much people hate Islam. you will know the origin of how he (iblis) became Satan. he was a the most pious of all Jinn ( creature created from smokeless fire) who used to worship god. there was a war before Adam (humans) was created. the jinn are powerful beings among other free-will creations of god. God raised iblis ranked to the angles and he was with them in the angelic court. God then sent angles to destroy the evil jinns that were creating mischief. and Iblis volunteered to come this destroy the jinns. only a few left on the earth. iblis who is a jinn then comes back with the angles. god said i am about make a ruler on earth. iblis got really happy because he thought it was him. angles does not have free will they cannot disobey god. god creates adam from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape. and breath a soul into him. then he told them prostate and bow down as a sign of respect. all the angel prostrated except of Iblis he was of the jinn. watch The Jinn Race | Story of the Devil Iblis. you will know everything.
God is not described as malevolent in the Old Testament. God is described as just by the authors when doing the brutal things the reader might find malevolent.
“No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.” - John 10:18
Excellent guest. She has opened my eyes to historical knowledge and the political climates that MUST be included in any discussion regarding The Bible. I study her as well as The Bible and am grateful for her! 🙏
Mythologically we can easily put lables, be epic, and destroy absolute evil. But this is real life, a much much complex scenario. Loved her lasts words
That logic doesn't make sense friend cause if that was the case then you should except other religions God as well. Cause in the end it's the same God. 😅
@EspadaXtri "same God" doesn't make sense if you believe that there's only one God and that God isn't similar to anything/anyone and doesn't have any equals/children/parents. God is the only thing that it's essence and existence are the exact same thing.
Nah, the absolute deity and the sovereign lord deity always fight each other in every mythology. The absolute always humbles the sovereign lord, and the sovereign lord always kils the absolutely... but then the absolute always skips off laughing after he's killed, telling the sovereign deity "know your place, lil kingling. And, play it well, or the next omnimpotent omniscient will get to kill me next time. Peace, I'm out."😂
Theres nothing i respect more than a religious person whos willing to look at the history of religion through a historical scientific perspective instead of a mythical apologetics perspective. I think more religious people need to realise that you can be both. Scientific minded and religious.
It's fascinating that all stories need to have an opposing contrast to the virtuous protagonist, to the epic of Gilgamesh, the Vedas, the bible, Shinto and Norse myth and much more...Since the bible and a lot of our modern religions follow this trend of having this necessary evil, doesn't it feel like it's almost as fictitious as all of the stuff I mentioned.
Yea but they would argue this trend of good vs evil derives from god and Satan. Just like why people wanna be kings is because it's derived from the one true king, god. This could be turned the other way around ofcourse.
Or that contrast gives perspective. If everyone behaves the same there is no reference for good or bad. The antagonist and protagonist being opposite ends of the behaviour scale.
As Christians, we believe in evil spirits because we have encountered them just as other religions because we deal with the supernatural. If you don't experience the supernatural, you won't understand
Might be because some ideas/behaviours are objectively either fundamentaly not optimal or incoherent or/and ultimately lead to negative outcomes for either individuals or/and society but nihilist can't or do not want to entertain this idea out of convenience
I'd say it speaks more to our level of knowing and understanding, like the way many might come to a different answer while taking a test about a particular subject. There is an answer. Reason will get us so far. I rather like a "with reason" approach rather than a "within reason" approach.
It is best for all of us to repent. Yeshua will come back to judge the dead and the living. Christ is The Bread of Life and the Way, Truth and the Life.
@@alishalilehI thought Anubis judges our hearts on a scale against a feather when we die to see how righteous we were. Are you suggesting that I have been believing a made up story?
If I may give my opinion, the Jews crucifying Jesus was not an antisemitic cope by early Christians; it was the dovetail of the Old Testament, and a necessary logical prerequisite for Christianity. This is the Cycle of History in the Old Testament: The people fall into sin and suffer. In their suffering they call for God. God sends a prophet to carry the Word. The prophet blames the people, the people get angry because they don't want the burden of responsibility, and so they reject the prophet. Eventually they suffer enough and so repent, and so they prosper. Then the cycle repeats. The Gospels are the archetype of this. The Jews fall into sin and are conquered by the Romans. In their suffering they call for God. God sends The Word (Christ). The Word blames the people, the people get angry because they don't want the burden of responsibility, and so they kill The Word, and with it God. The Israelites are the sons of Abraham, and thus God's chosen people. Because they keep the law and maintain a higher degree of responsibility than other nations, they are blessed by him. But because by crucifying Christ the sons of Abraham by blood rejected God's Word, and because throughout the Gospels the gentiles are shown to be more willing to listen to The Word than the Jews and keep the spirit of the law, the crucifixion of Christ by the Jews and Christ's subsequent Resurrection modifies the covenant so that the "children of Abraham" are now those who have faith in God as Abraham did, rather than those simply of blood descent from Abraham. (The covenent of flesh dies and is reborn as the covenent of spirit, to lift phrasing from the Epistles) This justifies spreading the Word to the gentiles, as the children of Abraham are now dispersed across the nations waiting to be converted, rather than concentrated purely among the Jews and their Semitic cousins. People actually believed (and still believe) in this stuff, and to think that believers of the first century (many of them willing to and having died for their beliefs) would defile their sacred stories for a shallow spin doctor campaign is stupid. Plus Paul writes things theologically congruent to this in his letters before the Jewish revolt even happened.
People are willing to die over others’ falsehoods all the time. Look how many people wanna start a Civil War in America because they believe the lies about the elections
@@theobjectivereality1837 One of the assumptions in this video was that early Christians telling Romans "It's not you, it's their fault" was a pragmatic invention to curry favor with pagan audiences, and that they kept modifying the Crucifixion story more and more to make the Romans more innocent and the Jewish people more guilty with that goal in mind. That would be the spin doctor campaign. It's shallow because it ignores the deeper consequences and implications of Abrahamic theology that I outlined in my comment. I wish I could be more specific and point to parts of the video to support this, but it's been a few days since I watched this video so I don't remember it terrifically.
@@theobjectivereality1837 I posted a reply, but it got deleted for some reason. Here's a shorter one. If I remember the video right (it's been a few days), they make the claim that early Christians kept making Judeans more guilty and Romans more innocent in the Crucifixion with the pragmatic goal of winning favor and converts from the Romans. That is the spin doctor campaign. It's shallow because it ignores the deeper implications of Abrahamic theology that I wrote of above.
Very well explained! It's a proof alone for me that the bible is true.. because even though it is the most sold book on the planet.. noone knows what it says.. just as the Bible it-self explains. To every Christian who has the sprit, it is a compelling truth.
I’m loving these theological episodes, please keep them up. I’m endlessly fascinated by the roots of the bible as a text but it’s so hard to find decent content on this that isn’t fronted by an evangelical Christian.
I read this book years ago. It's a great all-time riveting read. I too used to think that Satan was a red devil with horns and a pitchfork, then one day, as a kid in elementary school, I was watching Firing Line on PBS. There was this man, William F. Buckley Jr. He was calm, soft spoken and reasonable, but he had an air of superiority about him. Then when he said, "gays should be isolated, imprisoned, and forced to wear a pink triangle," I was shocked. It was then that I learned that Satan wasn't a red devil with a pitchfork but a white man in a suit. It's a lesson I'll never forget.
Not just a white man but men in general. white men blame Satan and black men blame the the white man both blame the women neither blame THEIR selves for all the hate greed war and death they spread amongst their fellow man.
Double-Ender Recording: Involves each participant recording their audio/video locally using Elaine's own high-quality equipment. After the conversation, she sends her recording to be synced and edited together. This method typically results in much higher quality than a streamed recording. Alternativbe you can send a digital voice recorder to Elaine for her to record locally and then send you a copy.
Hey Alex, great episode as always. Just one note: 51:19 The idea of "300 years of persecution" is no longer the consensus among scholars, specially after Dr. Candida Moss wrote her critically acclaimed book “The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom”. Maybe you should have her on your show!
Good evening Alex and Elaine Thoroughly enjoyed this, thankyou for all your hard work on this subject. Must read more of this, for sure. Fascinating to say the very least. Truly grateful. 💜
I still remember your video "why I'm still scared of hell" or something like this quite a while ago - after all this years being an atheist I don't have flashbacks or something like this anymore but I just realising, to go into this subject so deep, is still somehow scary 😬 but very good video and important too 👍
No matter the belief, all life’s biggest questions are terrifying. However, the statistical unlikelihood that we would’ve existed at all makes me feel a little lucky. And as a wise man once said “I spent billions of years not existing and wasn’t inconvenienced in the slightest”, I’m sure eternity after will be about the same.
@@josiahz21 I agree with you. All existential questions are a bit scary. But hell and devil are special 😬 I don’t believe any of that but videos like this still can make nightmares in contrast to “normal” unknown questions only make a sleepless night. Bit I also like the quotation, I will think more on it 🙂
@@nannakurzhaar my feeble attempt to make you feel better. It hasn’t helped me too much either. George Carlin said it first and does a much better job, if you’ve not heard him. While I may miss the sense of community church gave me I do not miss the fire and brimstone talk.
@@josiahz21 thanks for trying 🤗 And kudos to Alex O’Connor for doing so well - we are from a similar background (and I guess it shows that my deconstruction is not complete yet)
@@nannakurzhaar Rome wasn’t built in a day. I imagine I’ll be dealing with the trauma for the rest of my life. It is a better life, a truer one, and even if I wanted to am not capable of going back. Carry on friendo. Break those chains.
Where did you got these idea ?????? Two spy plane fly above in North Korea when it was hit. The drunkard devil ordered a nuclear bombardment including the innocent people down there. In the future God reward them in 2 Kings 1 :10 ( KJV ) - if you watch " Dark Waters #shorts# The Man on that possession he has an elastic skin
Political dichotomy runs far deeper than just a couple verses in a book. The evolutionary adaptation of recognizing in group vs out group is pivotal for a social species surviving in a harsh environment.
Strange how the only time Elaine used strong and definitive language when answering whether the jews were responsible for the death of Jesus. “An impossible story!” “That could NOT have happened!”
i picked up my bag, went looking for a place to hide when i saw carmen and the devil walking side by side. i said, "hey carmen, come on let's go downtown", she said "i gotta go but my friend can stick around"
Hi Alex I love your videos and thought I'd drop some video suggestions; -naturalism vs occasionalism (regarding causality) -a video exploring Islam (to complete the Abrahamic religion series, if you like discussing gnosticism in Christianity, you might like the mutazilites (rationalists) or the ismaili (a branch of shia, who prefer allegorical interpretations of the Qur'an) or sufism (mysticism in Islam) -the life of Muhammad (he's interesting as being both a political figure and a religious leader)
It feels like a false dichotomy when talking about whether it was the jews or the Romans who crucified Jesus. It seems the jews wanted it, and the Romans were happy to oblige.
And not all the Jews too specifically the high priests thats are Pharasees and saducees. The Gospel is about the Jewish Messiah! Her argument that the masses couldn’t have condemned Jesus because elsewhere it says that the multitude followed him and loved him is ignoring that societies arent always in agreement. There couldve been a part of the population that loved Jesus and the others that sided with the high priests. Also in the Old testatement, the Jewish authorities have put to death their own prophets (Elijah, Zechariah, Isaiah). Thats what I get from the persecution of Jesus by the high court. Another prophet that came for the salvation of his people, killed by his people. Not antisemetism
@@Wakkks True. You should consider more than just the act in a crime. Yeah, it's like, they couldn't have figured out how to put a guy on a cross. An act they had seen done to them for decades (not that they did that even). But, she's taking normative behavior for granted.
Yeah I dunno what she's on about here. The apostles were trying to save the jews by saying the Romans didn't actually do it, but it was the jews so they could save themselves but were all killed anyway so.... ???
I’m so glad you got Elaine on the pod again! Side note, I really hope to hear from more women in this space. Historically women have been disregarded and silenced in the study of philosophy for so long, so I’d love if you’d platform more women on your channel if you can find some more scholars or other creators that align with your type of content! 😊
From Matthew 27: "24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a [c]tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.” 25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.” 26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had [e]scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified." The heart were the Jews. The hand were the roman soldiers, the head was Pilate. The heart convinced the head to order his hands. Furthermore, Pilate was far from pictured as a weak man. A weak man wouldn't have struggled with this situation. Ultimately, he helped is our salvation by doing the will of the Father. EDIT: Everytime I watch a video after Alex had a talk with Jonathan Pageau, it's as if he hadn't retained any information at all. Adam and Eve do die. God do not lie.
This was also prefigured in Daniel's lions' den story: Daniel: 6 It pleased Darius to appoint 120 satraps to rule throughout the kingdom, 2 with three administrators over them, one of whom was Daniel. The satraps were made accountable to them so that the king might not suffer loss. 3 Now Daniel so distinguished himself among the administrators and the satraps by his exceptional qualities that the king planned to set him over the whole kingdom. 4 At this, the administrators and the satraps tried to find grounds for charges against Daniel in his conduct of government affairs, but they were unable to do so. They could find no corruption in him, because he was trustworthy and neither corrupt nor negligent. 5 Finally these men said, “We will never find any basis for charges against this man Daniel unless it has something to do with the law of his God.” 6 So these administrators and satraps went as a group to the king and said: “May King Darius live forever! 7 The royal administrators, prefects, satraps, advisers and governors have all agreed that the king should issue an edict and enforce the decree that anyone who prays to any god or human being during the next thirty days, except to you, Your Majesty, shall be thrown into the lions’ den. 8 Now, Your Majesty, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered-in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.” 9 So King Darius put the decree in writing. 10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. 11 Then these men went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help. 12 So they went to the king and spoke to him about his royal decree: “Did you not publish a decree that during the next thirty days anyone who prays to any god or human being except to you, Your Majesty, would be thrown into the lions’ den?” The king answered, “The decree stands-in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.” 13 Then they said to the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, Your Majesty, or to the decree you put in writing. He still prays three times a day.” 14 When the king heard this, he was greatly distressed; he was determined to rescue Daniel and made every effort until sundown to save him. 15 Then the men went as a group to King Darius and said to him, “Remember, Your Majesty, that according to the law of the Medes and Persians no decree or edict that the king issues can be changed.” 16 So the king gave the order, and they brought Daniel and threw him into the lions’ den. The king said to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, rescue you!”
Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
37:02 "[The Jews] didn't have equipment to crucify people. They didn't know how to do it." I sympathize with the statement that an organized public Roman crucifixion wouldn't happen unless the governor ordered or approved it (kind of the way American nuclear weapons won't be used without the president's order). But "didn't have equipment" and "didn't know how to do it" sound incredible: the people who knew how to build houses and giant stone temples somehow didn't have wood and nails and, even if they could have gotten hold of such things, didn't know how to put a post in the ground with a crossbeam and to drive nails through a person?
I think she's trying to make the argument that only Romans could execute people. The local Jewish judges (Sanheddrin) could only pass smaller penalties and resolve civil and religious matters. It's very clear in John 18 that Jesus was executed by the Romans because he was accused of being known as King of the Jews, but it was because of the actions of Caiphas the High Priest. Very confusing she would even try to make such a stupid point.
You're leaving out her premise from a few minutes earlier, about needing the institutional scope of an army and an conquering state . It's not that it's physically impossible for jews to build a cross and nail someone to it, it's that the punishment and it's implementation doesn't come about without the context of a conquering regime and it's particular needs. Absent rome, it's still possible jews would have killed jesus, but it simply couldn't have gone down the same way, politically and socially, and in turn practically.
37:49 To play devil’s advocate, I’m struggling to parse the narrative that early Christians altered the story around who killed Jesus to save their skin when supposedly they were all willing to die for his story anyhow, and many of them did in fact do so.
I see tour point. I do think there is definitely something fishy going on with how Roman's are depicted in the new testament though. Especially seeing as how Christianity was ultimately co opted and broadened by the Roman's themselves
The translation is a bit more nuanced, because it also means accuser or someone who obstructs. However, considering that the satan in Job does exactly as yahweh tells him to do and yahweh listens to him and lets him torture the man, it is not very sound to believe that the title refers to yahweh's adversary but more to an accuser of mankind, someone who acts in opposition to humans as a way of testing their "worth" but at the end serves yahweh, because he ends up reaffirming his power.
@@eprd313 that is a gross way of looking at the situation. Evil does Evil by permission of God, Satan knows he has his limits "There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Satan does not serve God.... and the time will come when God will give this world up to his master... Satan accuses Job's obedience as being fake... not out of love.. Satan is an accuser and someone that obstructs... as revenge against God his mission is to ensure that every son and daughter of Adam and Eve will be destroyed in fire like him. Evil being regulated does not mean Satan is an agent of God
You are me both. It's hard to believe the that those people were feeding me with guilt and self hatred for years, yet it happened. I don't think my brain will ever completely recover.
Sorry that you have to go through all, the people who preach hell to scare people aren't really what Jesus wants instead it's about a relationship with Jesus Christ... Still sorry for what you've been through...
My childhood trauma didn't come directly from religion it came from a pedophile father and a mother who allowed it because she hated me a child named: You Little mother fker... for ruining her life , yes I was 6 years old on my first day of kindergarten B4 I found out that was not my name at all.
@@kc_h7hlet's say you're God and created intelligent life form to go live for eternity in some utopia, wouldn't you have some kind of trial to select only those deserving(fit) to go there?
You have to see religions as moral system and technology then you'd understand these were very important for humanity and the development of societies, story telling/symbolism, archetypes are very powerful tools to help promote certain moral values and behaviours in order for society to not collapse like atheists societies currently are because of fragile ego, nihilism, kumbaya weakness and hedonistic degeneracy
Amazing how real history differs so much from the stories we tell. This was an eye-opening episode. I've always wondered why God would have any enemies in the spiritual realm. It would take a "snap of his fingers" so to speak to do away with ANY enemy. Also, how did any spiritual being come to earth and impregnate human women?
*Larry Burkett's book on "Giving and Tithing" drew me closer to God and helped my spirituality. 2020 was a year I literally lived it. I cashed in my life savings and gave it all away. My total giving amounted to 40,000 dollars. Everyone thought I was delusional. Today, 1 receive 85,000 dollars every two months. I have a property in Calabasas, CA, and travel a lot. God has promoted me more than once and opened doors for me to live beyond my dreams. God kept to his promises to and for me*
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
Where in Genesis does it say “Satan” ? Believe it or not (you won’t believe anything your authority doesn’t tell you) but your religion is fake and an evolution of previous religions.
What a yawn conclusion. As if there is no such thing as the obvious discovery and development and refinement of ideas and intellection over time in literally every category of knowledge, whether purely logical or empirical.
Matthew 27:24-25 When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You bear the responsibility.” All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!” Exodus 24:6-8 Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people, who replied, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” So Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.” Luke 22:20 In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. . . . . Bonus verse: Matthew 16-21-23 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”
@CosmicSkeptic please have Fr. Stephen De Young on your show. He can go into much more detail and the historicity of these topics. Elaine is great but these answers are surface and lacking.
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You sound like a jew apologist and fail to see the lineage of players then, and now. Who is behind political lawfare in modernity? Zionist jews. Seems you aren’t very good at connecting the dots of reality
It seems that Satan is an idea added to the religious narratives to polarize believers into an "us vs. them" or a "this is war" mentality. This is a common tactic used by narcissists to manipulate and trap people into fighting each other as it's harder to critically think when you're under such mentality (getting emotional and paranoid).
These outros getting crispier
Sorry, but both of you weren't being exactly honest when it came to discussing the Genesis account...
'You can eat of any of the trees in the garden, but you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you were to eat from it, you would surely die.”
' the serpent said to the woman, “Certainly you shall not die! God knows that when you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing that which is good and that which is evil.”
"You shall have to sweat to eat your bread until the day when you return to the earth, for from it you were drawn.
You are dust, and unto dust you shall return.”
Thus, according to God's judgement, Adam's penalty for eating from the tree of knowledge was death.
Hmmm...
"Who is Satan?" you ask.
well, he's the adversary - the great deceiver - he is the eternal enemy of the kingdom of Christ, and everyone should fear him for that reason alone, if nothing else.
you should talk to Cliffe Alex. Even though I am an atheist myself I think he represents Christianity well. I am just interested in a conversation between you and him. Although I am not exactly sure Cliffe is much of a debater type I think he is just a preacher. Like I don't think his main thing is being a Christian apologetic
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't have a moustache.
I mean if bibi didn't shave twice a day one would grow on his upper lip every morning
Sexy and old school!
… and a British accent lol
That he doesn't exist***
@@Jesuslordoflords-y4mConsidering that everywhere on Earth is aware of the Bible, I'd say Satan failed miserably.
Everyone asks "who is the devil?" No one ever asks "how is the devil?' 😔
A better question is "why is the devil?"
But where is the Devil?
Don’t. We all saw baal
People don't think deeply enough on topics, especially pertaining to their own belief systems and the church.
"why believe in the devil?"
Love these conversation with Elaine Pagels. You two have a great academic chemistry and the topics are excellent. She is wonderful to listen to. I vote for making this a regular segment. She might be interested, if we’re so lucky.
I agree 100%
I agree as well, but only 99%
Hear...hear...
if you want to know about Satan. then learn it from the Islamic perspective. because that's the truth no matter how much people hate Islam. you will know the origin of how he (iblis) became Satan. he was a the most pious of all Jinn ( creature created from smokeless fire) who used to worship god. there was a war before Adam (humans) was created. the jinn are powerful beings among other free-will creations of god. God raised iblis ranked to the angles and he was with them in the angelic court. God then sent angles to destroy the evil jinns that were creating mischief. and Iblis volunteered to come this destroy the jinns. only a few left on the earth. iblis who is a jinn then comes back with the angles. god said i am about make a ruler on earth. iblis got really happy because he thought it was him. angles does not have free will they cannot disobey god. god creates adam from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape. and breath a soul into him. then he told them prostate and bow down as a sign of respect. all the angel prostrated except of Iblis he was of the jinn. watch The Jinn Race | Story of the Devil Iblis. you will know everything.
@@lokidedbeat1878 I bet iblis were wearing headphones and listened refuse/resist by Sepultura while disobeying direct order from gOD.
The fact Alex is sporting that moustache proves free will does not exist.
I think it proves freewill does exist, not sure how you came to that conclusion lol. But yeah, shave the stash lol!
Staches indicate.
@@NinjaskepticThe joke was probably that no one would choose that moustache if they could
@solidsnake8008 I understand the joke. My confusion is more philosophical. I agree that free will, on a grand scale, doesn't exist. But I don't agree that we are entirely without a say. Even Alex points to this being the case when he said, "You can will what you do, but you can not will what you will." This suggests at least some, if minuscule, amount of control and freedom in our decision-making mechanisms. (... hence the mustache lol.) Jokes aside, I would like to expand on this a little, if you don't mind. It is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
My thoughts currently, and I'm still working this out, is that whatever amout of semi-free-will (sfw for short) that we have is limited more in the present realm than in the temporal realm. Basically, the butterfly effect but for the efficacy of our decisions through time. This means we can't do much about much in a short amount of time, but the amount of control and sfw we encounter is predicate on how much time we commit to that decision.
I don't think these are new ideas, I haven't studied philosophy at the level of most scholars. I'm simply trying to articulate these ideas in a way that relates to free-will and my own understanding of things.
@@Ninjaskeptic Unfortunately, I still think you fail to understand the mechanics. The neuroscience is pretty damning. Choices are made before we are aware of them (it's a separate part of the mind that later is made aware of the decision). It's that same ladder part that feels we are in control. Nurture and nature is the end all be-all. You don't have any level of decision-making. Not even "semi-free-will". you cannot act in a vacuum - in a way which doesn't align with innate and conditioned behavior. Even attempting to purposely act contrarily to your previous behaviors (in defiance of determinism) is learned by your environment, perhaps by events that drew awareness to it - and is still a product of nurture. You cannot escape it.
Freewill logically makes no sense. It never did.
You could add her name to the title. There is no introduction, and Elaine Pagels has a name deserving of the achievements of her studies.
He's already done a video with her, thats probably why he didn't give her an actual intro
@@jacksonbenincosa3759 I know, but still...
Alex O'Connor is slowly turning into Friedrich Nietzsche
Hopefully not as successful with the ladies.
@@eeeqqq7582 Alex can play guitar and sing, and he is highly intelligent, he's probably very successful with the ladies
Freddy NeitStache?
Fried O'Nietzcher
He's got a long way to go. FRED had a super mustache that went down to his lower lip...I tried that once and eating was a nightmare, especially something like buffalo wings
The generation gap is insane. The lady on the right has less pixels than his entire mustache.
Alex is sporting a 70's porn mustache. lol
*fewer
@@the_luggage I'm not a native speaker.
Genius comment. Love it!
@@the_luggage Linguistic prescriptivists usually say that fewer and not less should be used with countable nouns,and that less should be used only with uncountable nouns. This distinction was first tentatively suggested by the grammarian Robert Baker in 1770, and it was eventually presented as a rule by many grammarians since then. However, modern linguistics has shown that idiomatic past and current usage consists of the word less with both countable nouns and uncountable nouns so that the traditional rule for the use of the word fewer stands, but not the traditional rule for the use of the word less.
Episode about Satan sporting an evil mustache. Perfect.
evil mustache or very hungry caterpillar?
and horns growing out of his ears
novel
alex this moustache might be the single largest driver of channel engagement. it's like a third of the comments 😭😂
...way more then a third. 😳
More people need to listen to your podcasts, especially your debates.
Also, Elaine has some amazing books out there. I highly recommend them to all! The Gnostic Gospels is one of my personal favorites.
Agree
I read that in 1990.. fascinating book.. at a time when mainstream Christians have not even heard of the phrase “ gnostic gospels”..
Her knowledge, passion, and energy on the topic is incredible.
*@CosmicSkeptic* Alex, I'm not sure why you didn't include Elaine Pagels's name in this video's title?
I was ready to skip it, and then I noticed what looked like it might be an older-looking Elaine Pagels whom I remember enjoying on the History Channel back when I still watched TV.
I'd suggest editing the video's title and including her name, there might be others who just skip through if they don't recognise her and don't see her name like I almost did.
What a great episode, a real honor to learn from Elaine. Great guests as always!
I love listening to these conversations late at night, they help me fall asleep
They give me nightmares
That mustache took Alex from Cambridge philosopher to extra in Smokey and the Bandit.
You mean Oxford philosopher?
@@davidandersson1961 well I’ve embarrassed myself
He's no Burt Reynolds. How about a certain foreign exchange aide de camp trying to talk Jack D Ripper down from the ledge?
Having the great guests you do have is testament to how well you present yourself.
On the road to 1 mil subs Alex. Big congrats for how far you've come!
I’ll say it again: Elaine Pagels is amazing. Especially for her age.
"for her age"
😂😂😂😂😂😂 😢
Keep it in your pants.
She's very sharp minded. I'm a senior and struggle with my memory every day.
@@dbarker7794 The media narrative about Biden's "dementia" has really fucked with people's understanding of how aging works
Bet you won't say it again
I know this discussion is about Satan's origin, but when discussing where we get our current depiction of Satan from, I'm surprised Dante's "Inferno" wasn't brought up.
I think Dante’s inferno had more influence on the concept of hell as opposed to the character of Satan as he’s just depicted as a three headed demon chewing on three biggest traitors of history while also being punished himself. Not many depictions of Satan tend to fit that description.
@@CyrokineticGuy-cu5qt Yeah, you are right.
I think Satan's red depiction significantly derives from the appearance of a sun-burned person; as in, burned by eternal resistance to the presence of God's light.
@@CyrokineticGuy-cu5qtparadise lost however paints him in a very interesting way
Alex is a wikipedia academic. you can't expect him to have cultural knowledge like that.
I like when Elaine says “At its best, Christianity is about Love, but there’s an undercurrent in it that allows for hate.”
I found that to be very thought provoking.
It’s also cool that she’s more than 3 times his age, and they can have a cool conversation people of any age can enjoy
Tell it. I am a mom of five boys. They are diverse in their thinking. One is Christian and I would love to sit down with him to share the fact that the hassle is real when it comes to being a Christian as man's common sense may have created what we believe in. This young man is blessed as it sounds like he has taken Jiddu Krishnamurti"s advice in his book, Freedom From The Known. We are conditioned.
Not an undercurrent. Murder and mayhem are BASIC to the JudeoChristian philosophy/world view.
@joshuasheets9236 The undercurrent is not in Christianity. The people who call themselves Christians are who Elaine is challenging, not Christianity itself. Christianity teaches love on its own. it is just what it is. Love. Humans make images about anything, and then it stands between them and actual thing. Even love and especially love. Leave love alone if you are a human being. No one has taught man how to love, and the one who wanted to come and teach thru Christianity to many is not a man but a son of God. He has what it takes to love and hate, but without bias, one hopes. Others fear that his death was engineered, so he did not get to the end of his divine plan to teach love to humans.The rest of us is just a question of time before what we call love is useless. Those who are familiar with shakespeare's play Measure for Measure will see this clearly how this is so through it. If you are not great at understanding it, why don't you watch a review on it by Michael Sugrue. He will help you read between the lines. He did it for me. Elaine has helped me to open my eyes a bit wider while seeking to know something.
@@penelopeprill211 Wdym "Basic"?
It's really telling of the human development of christianity, that the early church *blamed* Judas and/or Satan for getting crucified. Clearly, *that* doctrine developed before the story that Jesus' death was *necessary,* all a part of God's plan.
So God wanted me to wake up and go to a job everyday and get paid peanuts? And I'm supposed to follow him? Thanks for nothing.
@@EattheApple666 Except Jesus (or more likely his fans) revised the rules, and said "take no thought for the morrow". Because, you know, the world was going to end Any Minute Now™.
@@jursamaj so... YOLO?!
@@RaiderDave42069 Indeed. Altho Jesus' idea of YOLO was to sell everything, give the money away, and wander the desert with him. Not a very popular lifestyle these days.
@@jursamaj with enough peyote I might be convinced into a wandering desert party
The evolution of satan is an interesting topic indeed, thanks a million for covering it 😊 having gone through some church trauma, it helps a lot ❤
As a Christian, I think we have all gone through church trauma. People aren't perfect, and some are cultists.
@@sally9352& some are dangerous people, manipulating followers with silly stories
@tsdvaks I agree, and different groups of people follow different dangerous ideologies and become useful idiots for the government because they listen to silly stories from the media and schools. Manipulation is strong. God have mercy on them.
@@sally9352 My church has been great so far. I hope I would not have to face that.
The Evolution of Satan, apparently he is related to the Tasmanian Devil.
Thank you for sharing this interview with us Alex. I will be watching soon. I'm just glad for your inquiry on the matter and for your valuing of dialogue, because dialogue is an action of unity. So thanks!
The direction of the inquiries into history on this channel is in my opinion amazing and honest
A long time ago, the church realised that fear is more pervasive than love.
So did capitalism.
@theconversationalpainter2020 no. Capitalism employed the 7 deadly sins and made them out to be harmless.
Oh yes the fear of living a morally good life, the horror! 😂
THE HORROR!
@@Special_Tactics_Force_Unit the morally good life of the Christian Church over the centuries is full of horror .. real horror.
The greatest trick the Russel's Teapot has ever pulled was convincing people it doesn't exist
Along with pot head pixies and the invisible planet round which said teapot orbits.
@@opinion3742Gongtastic!
“How do you shoot Russel’s teapot in the back?
What if you miss?”
@@jbapples4611 What if you hit something that is not there?
This was an absolutely mind blowing episode…. And the whole comment section somehow turned into brain-rot 😑
The saying/joking around Alex's moustache, which kills all rationale is that the first task of the devil or his modus vivendi is to convince us that he does not exist. As long as you believe that, all acces to such a meaningful talk is closed.
if you want to know about Satan. then learn it from the Islamic perspective. because that's the truth no matter how much people hate Islam. you will know the origin of how he (iblis) became Satan. he was a the most pious of all Jinn ( creature created from smokeless fire) who used to worship god. there was a war before Adam (humans) was created. the jinn are powerful beings among other free-will creations of god. God raised iblis ranked to the angles and he was with them in the angelic court. God then sent angles to destroy the evil jinns that were creating mischief. and Iblis volunteered to come this destroy the jinns. only a few left on the earth. iblis who is a jinn then comes back with the angles. god said i am about make a ruler on earth. iblis got really happy because he thought it was him. angles does not have free will they cannot disobey god. god creates adam from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape. and breath a soul into him. then he told them prostate and bow down as a sign of respect. all the angel prostrated except of Iblis he was of the jinn. watch The Jinn Race | Story of the Devil Iblis. you will know everything.
Mind blowing… are you brand new to Christian history?
She said there is no malevolent spirit in Judaism. I would say God is quite malevolent many times , throughout Judaism.
Exactly old testament is full of gods hate and anger and fear of god.
God is not described as malevolent in the Old Testament. God is described as just by the authors when doing the brutal things the reader might find malevolent.
@@ChaoMung-t9u Psalm 137:8-9
@@voidgazerwisco the Author of that Psalm obviously thinks that's a good thing.
You don't get my point.
By what standard is God malovelant? Yours? How convinient?
“No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.” - John 10:18
Excellent guest. She has opened my eyes to historical knowledge and the political climates that MUST be included in any discussion regarding The Bible. I study her as well as The Bible and am grateful for her! 🙏
This was great. Thank you, Alex and Elaine.
Mythologically we can easily put lables, be epic, and destroy absolute evil. But this is real life, a much much complex scenario. Loved her lasts words
Devil is man's enemy, not God. Technically God doesn't have an enemy because he's omniscient and omnipotent.
That logic doesn't make sense friend cause if that was the case then you should except other religions God as well. Cause in the end it's the same God. 😅
@EspadaXtri "same God" doesn't make sense if you believe that there's only one God and that God isn't similar to anything/anyone and doesn't have any equals/children/parents. God is the only thing that it's essence and existence are the exact same thing.
But is he an omnibus?
@@patchso no i think the only omnibus entity in the multuverse is ur ma.
Nah, the absolute deity and the sovereign lord deity always fight each other in every mythology. The absolute always humbles the sovereign lord, and the sovereign lord always kils the absolutely... but then the absolute always skips off laughing after he's killed, telling the sovereign deity "know your place, lil kingling. And, play it well, or the next omnimpotent omniscient will get to kill me next time. Peace, I'm out."😂
I adore this type of discussion. What was written? Who wrote it? What was going on in society at the time?
Love that discussion
I read the Origin of Satan years ago and absolutely loved it. I learned so much. I love this conversation!
Theres nothing i respect more than a religious person whos willing to look at the history of religion through a historical scientific perspective instead of a mythical apologetics perspective. I think more religious people need to realise that you can be both. Scientific minded and religious.
It's fascinating that all stories need to have an opposing contrast to the virtuous protagonist, to the epic of Gilgamesh, the Vedas, the bible, Shinto and Norse myth and much more...Since the bible and a lot of our modern religions follow this trend of having this necessary evil, doesn't it feel like it's almost as fictitious as all of the stuff I mentioned.
Yea but they would argue this trend of good vs evil derives from god and Satan. Just like why people wanna be kings is because it's derived from the one true king, god.
This could be turned the other way around ofcourse.
Or that contrast gives perspective. If everyone behaves the same there is no reference for good or bad. The antagonist and protagonist being opposite ends of the behaviour scale.
As Christians, we believe in evil spirits because we have encountered them just as other religions because we deal with the supernatural. If you don't experience the supernatural, you won't understand
Might be because some ideas/behaviours are objectively either fundamentaly not optimal or incoherent or/and ultimately lead to negative outcomes for either individuals or/and society but nihilist can't or do not want to entertain this idea out of convenience
I'd say it speaks more to our level of knowing and understanding, like the way many might come to a different answer while taking a test about a particular subject. There is an answer. Reason will get us so far. I rather like a "with reason" approach rather than a "within reason" approach.
Elaine Pagels?? Give me a break - I love her and I got all her books ❤️... And you bring her here for me 😮
The six words missing from the biblical - i.e. Greek - corpus are: "Once upon a time", and "The End".
It is best for all of us to repent. Yeshua will come back to judge the dead and the living. Christ is The Bread of Life and the Way, Truth and the Life.
@@alishalileh - Yeah, sure, if you say so. Whatever.
@@alishalileh I can't repent if I never pent in the first place
@@alishalilehI thought Anubis judges our hearts on a scale against a feather when we die to see how righteous we were. Are you suggesting that I have been believing a made up story?
The whole 'Satan' schtick is just one of the more embarrassing and inconsistent aspects of the Christian holy book.
great, great interview! those last minutes were completely mindblowing to me
Thank you Elaine and Alex. What a brilliant conversation. 🔥
If even Alex can’t make the mustache work, I’m more confident than ever that I never could.
If I may give my opinion, the Jews crucifying Jesus was not an antisemitic cope by early Christians; it was the dovetail of the Old Testament, and a necessary logical prerequisite for Christianity.
This is the Cycle of History in the Old Testament: The people fall into sin and suffer. In their suffering they call for God. God sends a prophet to carry the Word. The prophet blames the people, the people get angry because they don't want the burden of responsibility, and so they reject the prophet. Eventually they suffer enough and so repent, and so they prosper. Then the cycle repeats.
The Gospels are the archetype of this. The Jews fall into sin and are conquered by the Romans. In their suffering they call for God. God sends The Word (Christ). The Word blames the people, the people get angry because they don't want the burden of responsibility, and so they kill The Word, and with it God.
The Israelites are the sons of Abraham, and thus God's chosen people. Because they keep the law and maintain a higher degree of responsibility than other nations, they are blessed by him. But because by crucifying Christ the sons of Abraham by blood rejected God's Word, and because throughout the Gospels the gentiles are shown to be more willing to listen to The Word than the Jews and keep the spirit of the law, the crucifixion of Christ by the Jews and Christ's subsequent Resurrection modifies the covenant so that the "children of Abraham" are now those who have faith in God as Abraham did, rather than those simply of blood descent from Abraham. (The covenent of flesh dies and is reborn as the covenent of spirit, to lift phrasing from the Epistles) This justifies spreading the Word to the gentiles, as the children of Abraham are now dispersed across the nations waiting to be converted, rather than concentrated purely among the Jews and their Semitic cousins.
People actually believed (and still believe) in this stuff, and to think that believers of the first century (many of them willing to and having died for their beliefs) would defile their sacred stories for a shallow spin doctor campaign is stupid. Plus Paul writes things theologically congruent to this in his letters before the Jewish revolt even happened.
Your well written comment would carry more meaning for me if I knew what you meant by a "shallow spin doctor campaign".
People are willing to die over others’ falsehoods all the time. Look how many people wanna start a Civil War in America because they believe the lies about the elections
@@theobjectivereality1837 One of the assumptions in this video was that early Christians telling Romans "It's not you, it's their fault" was a pragmatic invention to curry favor with pagan audiences, and that they kept modifying the Crucifixion story more and more to make the Romans more innocent and the Jewish people more guilty with that goal in mind. That would be the spin doctor campaign. It's shallow because it ignores the deeper consequences and implications of Abrahamic theology that I outlined in my comment.
I wish I could be more specific and point to parts of the video to support this, but it's been a few days since I watched this video so I don't remember it terrifically.
@@theobjectivereality1837 I posted a reply, but it got deleted for some reason. Here's a shorter one.
If I remember the video right (it's been a few days), they make the claim that early Christians kept making Judeans more guilty and Romans more innocent in the Crucifixion with the pragmatic goal of winning favor and converts from the Romans. That is the spin doctor campaign. It's shallow because it ignores the deeper implications of Abrahamic theology that I wrote of above.
Very well explained! It's a proof alone for me that the bible is true.. because even though it is the most sold book on the planet.. noone knows what it says.. just as the Bible it-self explains. To every Christian who has the sprit, it is a compelling truth.
'Ready, Freddie?' Alex gonna start singing... 'Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me, for me' in a minute...
Hard (no pun intended) to say whether his abiding interest in Christianity or the moustache make his mouth appear to be so penis friendly.
Thanks Alex for this wonderful conversation. Would love to see more conversations with Elaine Pagels.
I’m loving these theological episodes, please keep them up. I’m endlessly fascinated by the roots of the bible as a text but it’s so hard to find decent content on this that isn’t fronted by an evangelical Christian.
I’ve always found her so hard to digest so I’m looking forward to this
I read this book years ago. It's a great all-time riveting read. I too used to think that Satan was a red devil with horns and a pitchfork, then one day, as a kid in elementary school, I was watching Firing Line on PBS. There was this man, William F. Buckley Jr. He was calm, soft spoken and reasonable, but he had an air of superiority about him. Then when he said, "gays should be isolated, imprisoned, and forced to wear a pink triangle," I was shocked. It was then that I learned that Satan wasn't a red devil with a pitchfork but a white man in a suit. It's a lesson I'll never forget.
Buckley must have been a closet Nazi.
Not just a white man but men in general. white men blame Satan and black men blame the the white man both blame the women neither blame THEIR selves for all the hate greed war and death they spread amongst their fellow man.
Double-Ender Recording: Involves each participant recording their audio/video locally using Elaine's own high-quality equipment. After the conversation, she sends her recording to be synced and edited together. This method typically results in much higher quality than a streamed recording. Alternativbe you can send a digital voice recorder to Elaine for her to record locally and then send you a copy.
Hey Alex, great episode as always. Just one note: 51:19 The idea of "300 years of persecution" is no longer the consensus among scholars, specially after Dr. Candida Moss wrote her critically acclaimed book “The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom”. Maybe you should have her on your show!
Good evening Alex and Elaine
Thoroughly enjoyed this, thankyou for all your hard work on this subject.
Must read more of this, for sure.
Fascinating to say the very least.
Truly grateful.
💜
I still remember your video "why I'm still scared of hell" or something like this quite a while ago - after all this years being an atheist I don't have flashbacks or something like this anymore but I just realising, to go into this subject so deep, is still somehow scary 😬 but very good video and important too 👍
No matter the belief, all life’s biggest questions are terrifying. However, the statistical unlikelihood that we would’ve existed at all makes me feel a little lucky. And as a wise man once said “I spent billions of years not existing and wasn’t inconvenienced in the slightest”, I’m sure eternity after will be about the same.
@@josiahz21 I agree with you. All existential questions are a bit scary. But hell and devil are special 😬 I don’t believe any of that but videos like this still can make nightmares in contrast to “normal” unknown questions only make a sleepless night. Bit I also like the quotation, I will think more on it 🙂
@@nannakurzhaar my feeble attempt to make you feel better. It hasn’t helped me too much either. George Carlin said it first and does a much better job, if you’ve not heard him. While I may miss the sense of community church gave me I do not miss the fire and brimstone talk.
@@josiahz21 thanks for trying 🤗 And kudos to Alex O’Connor for doing so well - we are from a similar background (and I guess it shows that my deconstruction is not complete yet)
@@nannakurzhaar Rome wasn’t built in a day. I imagine I’ll be dealing with the trauma for the rest of my life. It is a better life, a truer one, and even if I wanted to am not capable of going back. Carry on friendo. Break those chains.
Doubling down on the mustache I see.
This guy has had a mustache for years, what are you on about?
@@Levi-bs4oeStart jumping up and down
@@dupisdisasterpiece1058 no, thank.
The greatest trick the devil ever played, was convincing people that his name was/is God.
Lol username
Lol wtf
Where did you got these idea ??????
Two spy plane fly above in North Korea when it was hit. The drunkard devil ordered a nuclear bombardment including the innocent people down there. In the future God reward them
in 2 Kings 1 :10 ( KJV )
- if you watch
" Dark Waters #shorts#
The Man on that
possession he has an
elastic skin
Fun fact: This is also called out in Revelations
@@1erickf50
fun fact #2: Jesus is a slave herder.
Thank you, Alex, for jumping right in.
Political dichotomy runs far deeper than just a couple verses in a book. The evolutionary adaptation of recognizing in group vs out group is pivotal for a social species surviving in a harsh environment.
That moustache is saying "Frankly My Dear, I dont Give a Damn"
Strange how the only time Elaine used strong and definitive language when answering whether the jews were responsible for the death of Jesus.
“An impossible story!” “That could NOT have happened!”
So she's jewish?
Possibly she is aware of the long history of persecution of Jews by Christina using this as an excuse.
Aargh! Damn autocorrect.
@@michaelnewsham1412 you mean the long history of jewish rabbis blaspheming Jesus Christ in their holy books?
i picked up my bag, went looking for a place to hide when i saw carmen and the devil walking side by side. i said, "hey carmen, come on let's go downtown", she said "i gotta go but my friend can stick around"
Take a load for free...
elaine pagels is 81 years old-what an inspiration. i can only hope to have half her insights and eloquence if i’m lucky enough to reach that age.
Hi Alex
I love your videos and thought I'd drop some video suggestions;
-naturalism vs occasionalism (regarding causality)
-a video exploring Islam (to complete the Abrahamic religion series, if you like discussing gnosticism in Christianity, you might like the mutazilites (rationalists) or the ismaili (a branch of shia, who prefer allegorical interpretations of the Qur'an) or sufism (mysticism in Islam)
-the life of Muhammad (he's interesting as being both a political figure and a religious leader)
The other thing more badass than satan is that moustache
Magnum O'Connor
Alex has finally completed his transformation into an 80's porn actor
It really isnt
God loves you
It feels like a false dichotomy when talking about whether it was the jews or the Romans who crucified Jesus. It seems the jews wanted it, and the Romans were happy to oblige.
Don't say that it completely ruin the narrative ✝️=HATE therefore must be banned
And not all the Jews too specifically the high priests thats are Pharasees and saducees. The Gospel is about the Jewish Messiah! Her argument that the masses couldn’t have condemned Jesus because elsewhere it says that the multitude followed him and loved him is ignoring that societies arent always in agreement. There couldve been a part of the population that loved Jesus and the others that sided with the high priests.
Also in the Old testatement, the Jewish authorities have put to death their own prophets (Elijah, Zechariah, Isaiah). Thats what I get from the persecution of Jesus by the high court. Another prophet that came for the salvation of his people, killed by his people. Not antisemetism
@@Wakkks True. You should consider more than just the act in a crime. Yeah, it's like, they couldn't have figured out how to put a guy on a cross. An act they had seen done to them for decades (not that they did that even). But, she's taking normative behavior for granted.
Yeah I dunno what she's on about here. The apostles were trying to save the jews by saying the Romans didn't actually do it, but it was the jews so they could save themselves but were all killed anyway so.... ???
I’m so glad you got Elaine on the pod again! Side note, I really hope to hear from more women in this space. Historically women have been disregarded and silenced in the study of philosophy for so long, so I’d love if you’d platform more women on your channel if you can find some more scholars or other creators that align with your type of content! 😊
From Matthew 27:
"24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a [c]tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had [e]scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified."
The heart were the Jews. The hand were the roman soldiers, the head was Pilate. The heart convinced the head to order his hands. Furthermore, Pilate was far from pictured as a weak man. A weak man wouldn't have struggled with this situation. Ultimately, he helped is our salvation by doing the will of the Father.
EDIT: Everytime I watch a video after Alex had a talk with Jonathan Pageau, it's as if he hadn't retained any information at all. Adam and Eve do die. God do not lie.
This was also prefigured in Daniel's lions' den story:
Daniel:
6 It pleased Darius to appoint 120 satraps to rule throughout the kingdom, 2 with three administrators over them, one of whom was Daniel. The satraps were made accountable to them so that the king might not suffer loss. 3 Now Daniel so distinguished himself among the administrators and the satraps by his exceptional qualities that the king planned to set him over the whole kingdom. 4 At this, the administrators and the satraps tried to find grounds for charges against Daniel in his conduct of government affairs, but they were unable to do so. They could find no corruption in him, because he was trustworthy and neither corrupt nor negligent. 5 Finally these men said, “We will never find any basis for charges against this man Daniel unless it has something to do with the law of his God.”
6 So these administrators and satraps went as a group to the king and said: “May King Darius live forever! 7 The royal administrators, prefects, satraps, advisers and governors have all agreed that the king should issue an edict and enforce the decree that anyone who prays to any god or human being during the next thirty days, except to you, Your Majesty, shall be thrown into the lions’ den. 8 Now, Your Majesty, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered-in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.” 9 So King Darius put the decree in writing.
10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. 11 Then these men went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help. 12 So they went to the king and spoke to him about his royal decree: “Did you not publish a decree that during the next thirty days anyone who prays to any god or human being except to you, Your Majesty, would be thrown into the lions’ den?”
The king answered, “The decree stands-in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”
13 Then they said to the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, Your Majesty, or to the decree you put in writing. He still prays three times a day.” 14 When the king heard this, he was greatly distressed; he was determined to rescue Daniel and made every effort until sundown to save him.
15 Then the men went as a group to King Darius and said to him, “Remember, Your Majesty, that according to the law of the Medes and Persians no decree or edict that the king issues can be changed.”
16 So the king gave the order, and they brought Daniel and threw him into the lions’ den. The king said to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, rescue you!”
Satan is the original devils advocate.
Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
@@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT Funny how the angels dancing around gods throne screaming holy are flaming winged serpents 🤔
37:02 "[The Jews] didn't have equipment to crucify people. They didn't know how to do it." I sympathize with the statement that an organized public Roman crucifixion wouldn't happen unless the governor ordered or approved it (kind of the way American nuclear weapons won't be used without the president's order). But "didn't have equipment" and "didn't know how to do it" sound incredible: the people who knew how to build houses and giant stone temples somehow didn't have wood and nails and, even if they could have gotten hold of such things, didn't know how to put a post in the ground with a crossbeam and to drive nails through a person?
I think she's trying to make the argument that only Romans could execute people. The local Jewish judges (Sanheddrin) could only pass smaller penalties and resolve civil and religious matters.
It's very clear in John 18 that Jesus was executed by the Romans because he was accused of being known as King of the Jews, but it was because of the actions of Caiphas the High Priest. Very confusing she would even try to make such a stupid point.
Every time they tried to make crosses they came out as six sided stars...
"I'm telling you, a right angle is 60° I wrote it right here on my hand!"
You're leaving out her premise from a few minutes earlier, about needing the institutional scope of an army and an conquering state . It's not that it's physically impossible for jews to build a cross and nail someone to it, it's that the punishment and it's implementation doesn't come about without the context of a conquering regime and it's particular needs.
Absent rome, it's still possible jews would have killed jesus, but it simply couldn't have gone down the same way, politically and socially, and in turn practically.
and this is why context is important.
37:49 To play devil’s advocate, I’m struggling to parse the narrative that early Christians altered the story around who killed Jesus to save their skin when supposedly they were all willing to die for his story anyhow, and many of them did in fact do so.
I see tour point. I do think there is definitely something fishy going on with how Roman's are depicted in the new testament though. Especially seeing as how Christianity was ultimately co opted and broadened by the Roman's themselves
*some* were willing. I'd imagine the ones who were did so. What remains is cowards to shape a tale that makes them appear less so.
This is an incredible interview ,very interesting.
Kudos to you for keeping a straight face during some of these conversations with people who believe these shenanigans.
Wasn’t the “devil” named “The adversary” in the 5:19 book(s) of job? Exactly opposite to what she says 05:04 in to the interview?
The translation is a bit more nuanced, because it also means accuser or someone who obstructs. However, considering that the satan in Job does exactly as yahweh tells him to do and yahweh listens to him and lets him torture the man, it is not very sound to believe that the title refers to yahweh's adversary but more to an accuser of mankind, someone who acts in opposition to humans as a way of testing their "worth" but at the end serves yahweh, because he ends up reaffirming his power.
@@eprd313 that is a gross way of looking at the situation. Evil does Evil by permission of God, Satan knows he has his limits "There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Satan does not serve God.... and the time will come when God will give this world up to his master... Satan accuses Job's obedience as being fake... not out of love.. Satan is an accuser and someone that obstructs... as revenge against God his mission is to ensure that every son and daughter of Adam and Eve will be destroyed in fire like him. Evil being regulated does not mean Satan is an agent of God
The stash is legendary.
No one:
Alex O'Connor starting a conversation: "Who is Satan?"
Love Alex's class and intelligence. Despite the mustache? 🥴
Man I forgot about this channel and need a lot of long videos to listen to right now this is great 😃
Great episode, always interesting to hear someone expound on “why” people have certain beliefs. Thank you!
*"The greatest trick the chrstian ever pulled was convincing the world that the Devil exists"*
or the man in the sky watching over
@@EattheApple666feel sorry for you
People are prone to being deceived. The Devil is a metaphor for something that does exist. The father of lies.
Father of lies... the person or people who wrote the bible?
@@Bronco541 Are you straying into idiot territory now?
Alex, that mustache is quickly reaching Ron Swanson levels...
I was wondering who the moustache reminded me of…
it was Swanson.
@@TheNamesFathom it's an important section of the Swanson Pyramid of Greatness.
I have so much trauma from childhood because of Christianity. Especially the hell doctrine. Keep exposing it for the dirty lie it is 👏💜✨
You are me both.
It's hard to believe the that those people were feeding me with guilt and self hatred for years, yet it happened.
I don't think my brain will ever completely recover.
Sorry that you have to go through all,
the people who preach hell to scare people aren't really what Jesus wants instead it's about a relationship with Jesus Christ...
Still sorry for what you've been through...
same.. i feel more free not believing in the god of the bible
@@jamaisvx Are you alright now? Like just out of concern
My childhood trauma didn't come directly from religion it came from a pedophile father and a mother who allowed it because she hated me a child named:
You Little mother fker... for ruining her life , yes I was 6 years old on my first day of kindergarten B4 I found out that was not my name at all.
I couldn't stop thinking about Harold and Maude while watching this.
A very interesting conversation, nonetheless. Thank you.
Such an interesting topic!! Love this.
So Absurd to say that GOD can have an enemy. Religion has made our minds small. Religious people are truelly confused.
But that's cause life's confusing. Only an omnipotent good god would be even more confusing.
But it's a an enemy he can beat any time he wants without trouble. He just chooses to let him operate for some reason
@@kc_h7hlet's say you're God and created intelligent life form to go live for eternity in some utopia, wouldn't you have some kind of trial to select only those deserving(fit) to go there?
@@HolyPelvisPresleyyour funny
You have to see religions as moral system and technology then you'd understand these were very important for humanity and the development of societies, story telling/symbolism, archetypes are very powerful tools to help promote certain moral values and behaviours in order for society to not collapse like atheists societies currently are because of fragile ego, nihilism, kumbaya weakness and hedonistic degeneracy
Brazilian professor Oswaldo Luiz Ribeiro has great discussions around these topics, which are really incredible, in Portuguese though
Curl your mustache up like bicycle handle bars. It’s the next spiritual trend
I didn't think Satan was real until I saw that I had yet to subscribe to Alex's channel.
Amazing how real history differs so much from the stories we tell. This was an eye-opening episode. I've always wondered why God would have any enemies in the spiritual realm. It would take a "snap of his fingers" so to speak to do away with ANY enemy. Also, how did any spiritual being come to earth and impregnate human women?
Elaine reminds me of the lady in the movie "Insidious"
Yes she resembles Lin Shaye!
would you make a video with philosophy tube?? i’d love that
Alex and his mustache are the pizza guy in a 1970s porno rendition....
Doorbell rings :"Hey, Who ordered the sausage pizza?"
Lady: I did
Alex: Im skeptical of that
It's such a bummer that you'll never be able to interview Dr. Michael Heiser. He had so much to contribute to subject like these
She is so great.
Her Gnostic Gospels cleared up a lot of things for me.
*Larry Burkett's book on "Giving and Tithing" drew me closer to God and helped my spirituality. 2020 was a year I literally lived it. I cashed in my life savings and gave it all away. My total giving amounted to 40,000 dollars. Everyone thought I was delusional. Today, 1 receive 85,000 dollars every two months. I have a property in Calabasas, CA, and travel a lot. God has promoted me more than once and opened doors for me to live beyond my dreams. God kept to his promises to and for me*
There's wonder working power in following Kingdom principles on giving and tithing. Hallelujah!
But then, how do you get all that in that period of time? What is it you do please, mind sharing?
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
And thanks to my co-worker (Michael) who suggested Ms Susan Jane Christy
How can I start this digital market, any guidelines and how can I reach out to her?
Did I hear her say that satan wasn’t God’s enemy until the New Testament? Have you read Genesis 3 especially 3:15?
Or
Zechariah 3:1-10
Where in Genesis does it say “Satan” ? Believe it or not (you won’t believe anything your authority doesn’t tell you) but your religion is fake and an evolution of previous religions.
So in a nutshell, the concept of Satan developed over time as people made stuff up on the fly. Gotcha.
What a yawn conclusion. As if there is no such thing as the obvious discovery and development and refinement of ideas and intellection over time in literally every category of knowledge, whether purely logical or empirical.
@@johannpopper1493nah they are right though. She used bigger words but that's the conclusion.
It’s a pleasure to listen to this lady.
Matthew 27:24-25
When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You bear the responsibility.”
All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”
Exodus 24:6-8
Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people, who replied, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.”
So Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.”
Luke 22:20
In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
.
.
.
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Bonus verse:
Matthew 16-21-23
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.”
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”
Does Satan have a moustache. 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Yes
@CosmicSkeptic please have Fr. Stephen De Young on your show. He can go into much more detail and the historicity of these topics. Elaine is great but these answers are surface and lacking.
PLEASE bring the beard back dawg
I think Alex has a fabulous moustache, it's an old fashioned look that deserves to make a come back.
Alex’s hair won this debate by drying up faster than I did after hearing this lubricating discussion 😳