Liquid Air Batteries. Literally energy from thin air. Seriously. Literally!
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- Energy storage from thin air sounds a bit too good to be true, but the beauty of this potentially transformational technology is the simplicity of a design that utilises tried and tested components that have been reimagined and re-engineered to perform a vital function for electricity grids, now and in the future.
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What did the wind turbine say when asked about the liquid air storage system ? I’M A BIG FAN!
YOU'RE FUNNY AND IT WENT RIGHT OVER PEOPLES HEADS : I AM A BIG *FAN* 🤣🤣🤣🤣
".....; and nobody recognises THAT"
@@johnkean6852 including your take I THINK NOT just the joke makers. Winds already mechanical unlike photon to electron pumping wtf would you electrify it if your goal TO do mechanical WORK _however_ far away especially later on completely some OTHER DAY.
WINDMILLS ARE ABUSED PUMPING ELECTRONS. Many things they do better DUH. DO THOSE. BUILD THEM, MORE OF THEM FIR SAME DOUGH AND LEARN HOW TO BEST HARVEST THAT ENERGY FOW!
@@Irene-fu6gj : D HILL ...ARRIOUS! fAR AND aWAY ; )
@@johnkean6852 speak for yourself... it's so obvious it's barely funny
“Brian and Collin, in the corporate spreadsheet department” 😂
i read that comment at the exact time of the video saying that....wild
I've realised that coal-fired power stations are valuable assets in the energy mix. They have big turbine halls, large generators run with pressurised gas, massive yards currently used for storing coal, an electrical substation and a thick connection to the electricity grid. They sound like cost-effective sites for converting to huge liquid air storage facilities to provide power in the winter months. Replace the boilers with air scrubbers/liquifiers and build a load of tanks outside. It may not be 100% efficient but neither is keeping wind turbines stationary because there is nowhere to put the power. No need to buy up/dig up a farm or two. Minimal planning permission. Just convert dirty power stations into clean ones.
That sounds like an interesting idea.
People will stop fighting against renewables if they know there's a job awaiting them there. Many places where the fossil fuels are burned have very few large good-paying employers in the area. These dirty power plants pay for homes, pay for education, pay for health care. You can imagine why the local population puts up a fight and votes against their shuttering. I was surprised that they said that 200 people would be employed by the new plant. Seems like a lot, but from an employment standpoint it's a good thing. We'll take the oil drilling companies and their employees and turn them into geothermal ground source energy providers - the clean kind.
Don't stop there. There's no reason to think the coal-fired stations couldn't be converted to a hybrid model, which could use liquid air or coal/natural gas powered steam. That way, they could default to the liquid air and reduce overall emissions. Although, I specifically remember reports of scientists back in the 1970's claiming we were on the verge of a new ice age. It's entirely possible that man-made global warming caused by the use of fossil fuels saved the planet. Further, the greenhouse effect is not necessarily a bad thing. Plants grow much better in a CO2 rich environment. Increasing CO2 in the atmosphere may well be exactly what's needed to allow farmers to feed an ever increasing world population. Of course, climate alarmists often also advocate for a reduction of human population upon the earth.
But if you're truly serious about eliminating CO2 from power generation, then you should be advocating for thorium powered liquid salt nuclear reactors. They virtually eliminate the issues with conventional uranium/water cooled nuclear reactors, and there's enough thorium to produce cheap plentiful energy for the entire planet for thousands of years. With it we could lift third world countries out of poverty easily.
@@erikehlert People involved with international geothermal say they are working with natural gas companies measuring the heat in the thousands of dry drill holes left behind. The gas companies might get onto geothermal and measure the heat in their drill holes going forward.
@@motie38 How is that green when it produces toxic waste?
I wonder how easily this tech can be adapted to help with the fractional distillation of air. Valuable Noble gases such as Neon, Helium, Argon, and Xenon have relatively low condensation temperatures compared to Nitrogen and Oxygen, so they might be siphoned off as gases at the condensing stage and sold off to help recoup costs.
In one of the videos they said they can take the compressed co2 and sell it to brewerys to make extra money.
@@imakevideos5377 There's a lot more Argon than CO2 in the air, and CO2 is also cheaper than Argon and other noble gasses produced from fractional distillation, because it's a by-product from a lot of chemical or industrial processes.
@Allen Loser I think what he's saying is that the distillation of noble gases as a byproduct of the compression process can be used to supplement current ongoing fractional distillation processes.
@@imakevideos5377 Brewers make there own Co2/ Yeast and sugar = Co2
You could probably set up a cracking plant as a side business, after all you have got to strip out particals and moisture anyway. Wouldn't take much to distill noble gases and oxygen, leaving the nitrogen behind. Probably safer to do it that way anyway...
Please do a follow-up report on these plants after they have been in operation for at least a year. Very useful information!!
There are companies that have been using this for 15 years
@@udaysaireddi6265 Any information please
Thank you for covering this energy storage technology.
Just signed up for the Patreon account for this guy - I am always so jazzed to have access to great science content..... $3 a month is a steal. Thanks David!!!
God bless you
There's a sucker born every minute.
@@rwargo1647 Oh shut up. What are YOU doing to help humanity, besides throwing insults?
Thank-you for getting to the point and simplifying.
Thanks! I just read about this a few weeks ago, but I learned more here than I did from the article.
I love the fact that it is so simple. The simplicity of the system means that it is easy to calculate the costs, which in turn means that investors in this kind of system aren't assuming very much risk. So maybe we will see a lot of liquid air batteries in the future.
There was actually a study that shows that there are more than enough locations for pumped hydro storage, meaning we realistically could just use pumped hydro to store energy
Absolutely love your sense of humor. A bit dry, and actually a bit twisted. What it takes to get thru a day in our world. Thanks so for your info to the layman on most important topics. I'm hooked and glad to be a patreon on your channel.
This is so interesting!! Based on the pictures it reminded me of the Propane Fuel Stations here in Tennessee. Keep up the good work, sir!!😁
This seems like a job that I could feel proud of doing, working at a place like this.
Why not start a business?
@Christian Marquez : Yes, it would be an honorable endeavor but don’t kid yourself, your paycheck would be coming from some outside source. These kind of systems are subsidized by the taxpayer one way or another.
Dispatcher : You mean like Solyndra?
@@professormawillett4297 I mean find a group of similarly minded folks and make it happen
Dispatcher : I would gladly participate in an “green” endeavor that was honestly funded with truthful and honest goals. It is a noble challenge. You got some money laying around. We’ll get started right away.
It the first time I heard of this solution. Thank you very much for the intro to this. I'll be in the lookout for similar.
Well done Dave. Very professional channel. I enjoy it.
I was hoping you'd do a video on this. Thank you.
Exiting! Thanks for yet another great video👍
Your series of videos are making me very optimistic of a greener future.
Thank you for taking the time. Very intersting.
If the efficiency of conversion is 60%, then the 40% must be mostly waste heat, which could be used to warm greenhouses in winter, add the CO2 released from the zeolites to where the plants are, and at least in winter that could help grow food & feed people!
That sounds like an interesting way to make it more cost effective in the long term
Compressing air cranks out heat...not sure if I would want an on-site bakery and urban waste heat loopery, so it would tend to be aimed at the open sky as available where compressor turbine boosting avails not.
Very well articulated
The Telsa battery in SA, Australia paid for itself in 4-5 months after going operational according to local press.
I love the idea of this technology, it could be in the middle of a city and you wouldn't know. No pollution.
Mostly due to grid stabilization not storage. And I think it was only a quarter of the cost. But that is still pretty good.
No, it took about two years to pay for itself.
I sure do appreciate your channel. I'm very thankful I found it
Fantastic video and you are very clear and eloquent, subscribed!
Thank you for continuing to bring scientific concepts to the scientifically challenged masses, including me.
My pleasure Tim :-)
And me.
@@JustHaveaThink you should check in electrolytic hydrogen peroxide . It's already powered the World's Fastest Cars -pollution free
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like an energy conversion equation.
: ))
Energy storage needs many bright concepts such as springy floor energy storage. In future hardwood floors will be elastic so's you store the energy from dropping tools and use it to boil water for coffee later, rather than just leaving a bloody great dent in the floor, like Mister Think's one.
Keep banging the rocks together guys
LOL
rather good
This might be the most important channel on RUclips.
Spectacular design concept and well presented.
That's great! Goes to show we dont always need to be focused on inventing completely new things when we can just combine some of the stuff that already exists and achieve great results!
This gives me hope, which is in short supply these days. I'd thought thinking had gone by the wayside, and here we are, bless us. :-) Thank you.
Would be interesting to see the efficiency figures alongside ambient temperatures, the power demands of ASU's should not be understated, thats why they tend to be close to large power stations.
I like this. This is very smart. Especially an elegance of storing heat grabbed from liquefied air.
We'd like to hear about what's currently happening in Tidal power generation... seems quiet lately
It seems a much better idea than converting the energy of windturbines into hydrogen and back. 60 % efficiency round-trip is great!
The big windparks now planned in the North Sea could use this on shore to buffer the 10's of GW projected in the coming years.
Thanks for the easy digestable chunks.
60% efficiency is crap.
Thank you. You entice me to make studying or even investing in those new electricity storage solutions a serious hobby.
I also remember one pump powerplant of RWE at Herdecke, Germany which would be 90 years in operation now had it not been rebuilt to meet modern standards.
Excellent. Thorough and well explained. Subscribed
60% efficiency is a lot when considering that the alternative is losing all the potential energy instead of 40%.
Alvydas Urbonas losing, not loosing.
Neil Hughes, some screws are looser than others. Such as with the person who gets their pansies in a bunch because a stranger on the internet used the wrong they’re there.
@@tcorris Communicating is difficult enough, and there is no need to make it harder by not using the correct spelling. English must be a very confusing language to learn because of all of the words that sound the same, but loosing and losing are not in that category.
@@neilhughes3823 Did you understand what he meant? Then stop being a pedant.
You keep all the power if supplied by baseload nuclear and don't have to dick around with storage at all.
this is fantastic! reminds me of the existing technology of the trompe that used to be for running cars with compressed air. In fact there was a company called the Chicago Compressed Air Car company. in fact Chicago and Paris were powered by compressed air at the end of the 19thC/Early 20th
Ancient history is awesomely important and the predicate for further history writing but as you and Deaver to do that you apparently haven't included in your comment any mention of Miss Fong and her innuendo not just in her reams of patents Rich old white dudes paid her to file. She called her company lightsail of course and by shutting it down and putting solar panels on the glider the General Public exist in a naive dazed state like she never tried. Among the insights the general public would clamor to enforce give it a chance is the fact that you don't need a tube for the boring technology to work great you just have to create the vacuum in front of the bullet that the cargo and people ride in. That bullet concentrates the atmosphere thereby obtaining the heat needed to boil the liquids and operate the turbine.
Really interesting, thankyou for your time doing this
Nicely done! Thanks!
Do you remember when those who didn't like renewables had the same old cliche; "What happens when the wind's not blowing and the sun's not shining"? Looks like we will soon have more viable energy storage methods than we can shake a stick at; Necessity truly is the mother of invention.
@exorientelux As opposed to the millions of birds, bats and insects killed by smog and climate change.
exorientelux ..but surely a lengthy working lifespan of 25 years or so makes wind and solar environmentally viable? The static foundations, pylons and support frames last much longer, while turbines can be re-built. Solar panel technology is leaping ahead in terms of materials and recyclability.
James Brooks : Not really. Short term it looks good but long term, it’s no better than the gasoline engine that powers it.
Clive Mitchell : Good point. Let’s just double the carnage. That will fix everything.
James Brooks : You are overly optimistic. The lifespan is based on proper maintenance. Fold in the maintenance cost in time and money and it is a failed system.
It would be interesting to see if adding geothermal heating into this cycle, since you get so much more heat out vs power in for geothermal, it could offer a effective boost to the output of the compressed air.
this channel always helps me get my work done!!!
Inspiring & uplifting information, nicely presented, top work Mr. Borlace!
The round trip efficiency of 60% probably OK. Lithium systems have an AC round trip efficiency on the order of 75-80% but use limited resources like Li and Co in their manufacture and have a much shorter operational life, plus recycling issues at end of life.
Yes, to expand on that:
Lithium batteries are not great for big grid storage, but very useful in smaller/mobile units. Using spare capacity of your E-vehicle to power the house at night could be very useful.
For wind-parks and large solar arrays, liquid air seems like a perfect scalable and environmental friendly approach, that is used to power the grid.
Really 60% efficiency round trip for a technology that needs very little scarce metals and is very well recyclable is way preferable over batteries, and with much lower environmental impact than hydro dams. And it works great on our Dutch flat and windy land too.
It's always important to see an energy mix, suited to goals and distribution factors.
For storage of wind and solar energy, I can see a mix of somewhere in the regions of:
75% grid solution to capture renewable energy in liquid air (or similar clean grid-scale tech). These storages can be put close to the source, in order to minimize pressure on the national grid during peak production. Liquid air could also be a solution for new production sites on a grid that is already saturated, like in many places in the Netherlands, taking energy from the grid during peaks as well.
20% in batteries for mobility (cars) and local use (or off-grid locations). These are close to the user, and are charged via your own solar panels or via the national grid (preferably in peak production hours).
and 1-5% in Hydrogen, also for mobility in large trucks that need lighter solutions than huge batteries. Hydrogen can be moved around and distributed like petrol. This percentage becomes as low as possible, because of the many energy losses in the conversion and storage, but it can play a role in small amounts for specific uses.
The only practical way lithium ion batteries could be used as a major energy storage method for the grid is if you can get them cheap, I think that a few years after we get enough hybrid and electric vehicles on the road there should be a good supply of old batteries that are too degraded for road use but are in good enough shape for grid use, and hopefully by the time these early batteries are too degraded for grid use we will have developed the infrastructure to recycle them.
The 60% efficiency are mere speculation though, the only time they actually measured it they achieved 15%.
And to be honest 15% makes a lot more sense, there are thermodynamic limits on how efficient you can cool and liquify air at -195°.
A cool concept, literally and figuratively, but it has to work before I belive in that.
Right, they have a huge efficiency problem.
I fix... LIquid nitrogen
I think using magnetic refrigeration this higher efficiency is possible.
@@princefriendship I'm afraid that magnetic refrigeration will not be anywhere near economic at sufficient scale. The problem is that the magnetic field needs to be of the order of >1T over 10's of metres cubed. Superconducting magnets this size might bankrupt a small country.
@@princefriendship I haven't heard of a magnetic refrigarator in that temperature range though.
You would probably need several different refrigerators in a line, because the entropy change just isn't that large.
Very nice and neatly presented video and thoughts/research, thanks.
Really interesting video and so have subscribed. Thank you.
Love the off-the-shelf, scalable nature of the technology. And the transferable skills sets from the petrochemical industry is a big bonus for jobs. Subscribed!
Kasper777777777777
I'm just wondering if you have or had a sticky Number 7 switch /pad on your keyboard at sometime in the past ?
Awesome video! I had heard about this. But it is more exciting than I thought. I am currently being paid to charge my powerwall because of negative electricity prices from octopus 🐙 which is cool but doing it at the grid level is going to make a huge difference.
Beautifully elegant tech. Thanks for the video.
Great job in explaining the process and the concept. This is very exciting and another super option and step forward for a sustainable future! Thank you very much!!!
Love the humour too :-)
60% round-trip efficiency is more than I expected. Significantly worse than electrochemical batteries, pumped hydro and other gravity solutions, or flywheels, on par with compressed air, much better than hydrogen. All these technologies have advantages and drawbacks - probably all will find their niches.
Oil has drawbacks, like damages the people that sell it don't have to pay for...which make it obviously pretty competitive. All other solutions are hard, because they have to be almost perfect. Meanwhile, everybody has no problem whatsoever with their oil engine having a poor 20% efficiency...but they will cry for hours if there is a hint of inefficiency in alternatives...what a world.
Efficiency is a red herring if the energy would have been wasted if the storage wasn’t available. If we had excess storage, that’s when efficiency is significant. There is a lot to be said for having systems with no dangerous or difficult to obtain components.
@@Muppetkeeper Well, yes. For example, despite pretty abysmal efficiency, hydrogen obtained by electrolysis might be a viable way to spend excess renewables since it can conceivably be used as a clean fuel in aviation and long haul road transport where batteries are too heavy and not enough energy-dense.
@@bazoo513 Hydrogen itself is light, but to hold it requires heavy tanks. Batteries are lighter than the combination of H2 + tanks.
@@Elviloh the problem with your enemies is their lack of articulateness this because they are on the right side of History regarding feasibility. Cost engineering is very very important because we are polluting 4 its lack hello! Why systemic pollution has increased because of the wrath of solar electricity because of the use of uranium to produce electricity instead of do the work of liquefying nitrogen.
Amazingly this looks viable now, and something that was mentioned that could be an awesome side effect is the removal of CO2, grid storage with practically free carbon capture sounds really good.
+Genghisnico13 The earth will die if the CO2 isn't put back into the atmosphere from where it came. Plants live on CO2. If they die we die.
@@Islamisthecultofsin You can goo as low as 100ppm, no problems. Do you understand that TODAY CO2 is 50% higher than last million years?
Last 10 000 years ykcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/017-carbon-ppm-415-co2-2.jpg
And last 800 000 years live.mrf.io/statics/i/ps/cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/190513113159-mauna-loa-observatory-co2-415-exlarge-169.jpg?width=1200&enable=upscale
You see it was lowest at 180ppm and no more than 300ppm, average was 220ppm.
Also more CO2 in air is harmful for human breathing and animals.
You omit all bad consequences of so fast increased CO2 like acidification of oceans, plant fires from increased CO2 in air because global warming.
Effect from global warming are devastating for humans and agriculture pretended plant lover.
@@Islamisthecultofsin No, plants will die without water. They already have plenty of CO2 as is. Despite what the name "greenhouse effect" might suggest, we don't live in a carefully controlled greenhouse. Increasing the amount of CO2 isn't going to do shit when that isn't the bottleneck.
Oh, and guess what a consequence of climate change is. Worse droughts.
@@rendomstranger8698 CO2 slowly declines with time. All of the CO2 contained in rocks and fossil fuels used to be in the atmosphere. Eventually the CO2 will go to low and the plants will die. You can live for three days without water but only 3 minutes without oxygen. CO2 is oxygen to plants. Global warming is scam so stop being stupid. It's been the coolest summer that I've ever experienced this year. It's 80 degrees out and it's July.
Go take a look at a tree. You know what that is mostly made out of?
Carbon, taken from the air. That's over 95% of the mass of that tree when you exclude water. This idea that we have to strip the world of CO2 is madness.
I love having a think. I am greatful for the content. keep it coming.
Very good video mate, Loved it, wicked system very clever. hopefully we will see more of these about soon.
Sunday afternoon, brew and Just Have A Think. My new normal (-: Love these practical solutions for the fight ahead. Greetings from Aragon, Spain!
¡ Vale !
Cheers Matthew. I appreciate the vote of confidence :-)
I don’t get why people have to announce their nationality.
@@JustHaveaThink you are aware that ages ago the Wikipedia article was retitled from the correct nitrogen economy to utter nonsense decades out of date in its current sourcing and continuously policed by the darkest money. Well I guess you should learn about that! Liquid nitrogen is stable at atmospheric pressure it can be pumped through the same hoses that we use for offshore delivery of liquefied methane. Power lines resulted from Surplus electricity at Niagara Falls Etc and are cancerous metastasizing protecting internal combustion engines worldwide. It's actually not complicated if you have courage and civility but I'm not sure your mind is open. The floor is yours.
@@JustHaveaThink Mr. Borlace, please see my other newly posted comment. Apparently, YT no longer allows direct tagging, so I thought this might be the best way to reference my other message. Cheers!
Also worked on the "Air-Car" design in southern France.
If you're talking about the Peugeot hybrid system, I'm afraid it doesn't really work
@@simonz5905 no nothing to do with Peugeot!
@@simonz5905 did you even bother to look at the air-car?
@@simonz5905 ruclips.net/video/uRpxhlX4Ga0/видео.html
Very informative video in such a short time thanks for your great work. You recapitulated a part of "Introduction to Electrical Energy Systems" course that I took in 3rd year of my university
Simply a brilliant idea and presentation. I didn't now any of this even existed.
This is reassuring. We need such innovations if humanity wishes survive.
Yes Nicholas Tesla invented an electric motor for a car that did 150kmh and got the energy from air alone, people DID NOT Understand the significance then..maybe people will always want to be mindlessly serving the satanic tyranny instead and while earth/nature is getting dead, people are just going to be thinking about Mars as THE new hope! (learned nothing..) Bothering to learn AND Understand, will NEVER become what US, mindless most people, the brainwashed/indoctrinated mass hysterical puppets of social politics as the ignorant lazy naive SHIT of selfish fascistic bigots and pigs of monstrous bottomless stupidity race, will ever want to do, unfortunately.. :-/ Energy is everywhere in everything, the electro-magnetic field spins, not just twists, all energy spins, the air is loaded with energy..science got compromised a looooooong time ago, Albert Einstein knew better to begin with, but then he became just another entrepreneur.. Stirling engine could have been improved since it was invented around 1816..there was REALLY never any need to drill for a single drop of oil..! Thorium nuclear reactor is harmless (no dangerous radiation) and can not explode..but they shut it down because it JUST WORKED!!!
We need to dramatically reduce CONSUMPTION (of almost everything) if humanity wishes to survive.
There. Fixed that for you.
@@TheGhungFu You have not fixed anything, liberal capitalism is madness and will always require maximum use of resources for the mechanics(workers) to keep on turning that wheel..in order to serve the tyrants/shadow government..this system is not made by the people, it was made by the satanic tyrants, i know so, do not believe it, and i know the difference..i played on both sides..i know what i have witnessed..it is darker then words..right know we are under a plandemic because what is really going on is a global population reduction, the tyrants do not want to loose dominance..and we can easy become 25 billion here and more with 1900's technology alone. Kill the tyrants and the perversion ends like hitting 2 flies in one smack..if only ALL people could wake the fuck up..but why not is because of "monolin" from birth, again thanks to the satanic tyrants..unity of the greater good can fix things, the key is obviously equilibrium, Marx, Lenin..Socialist society, NOT Stalin who ruined communism with his monstrosity or Hitler..Humans have not seen real democracy for at least 3000 years..so i think you will have to do more then write 2 sentences to fix my NEVER TO LONG writings.. :-D
no, it's just making more gas. We don't need more gas
@M. Otto Making more gas?? Please explain?
Imagine if we had started funding stuff like this 30 years ago
Jonathan Strandberg we might have avoided the climate crisis.
Thirty years would not have changed the power density or intermittency of wind or solar. Batteries can't fix it either.
We might be free from semitic bankers
Imagine if they started funding this 300 years ago...
3000...
300000000000000
The "We" would have probably not existed now. The We, for some mysterious reasons, all died of heart attacks, according to government sources.
Thank you for a well explained tutorial. I don't understand the problems some of the people below seem to be having understanding this. All very clearly explained as usual. Thank you very much.
The idea of a heat pump delivers upon an interesting means of capturing energy. My ideas aren’t too complicated and have fewer moving components but you’re storing it is of interest I like it
I'm surprised Air Liquide isn't involved in working on this tech, considering they already have most of the equipment.
This is the first I've seen about liquid air batteries, and I appreciate your thoughtful and approachable treatment of the subject.
Something occurred to me during your presentation: Since we're separating CO2 from the air as a prerequisite for liquifying what remains, is there a practical way to sequester that carbon that I presume is otherwise simply being released back into the atmosphere? I haven't been able to find anyone discussing the idea of combining liquid air battery operation with carbon sequestration.
CO2 is very small percentage of the atmosphere we call air. In fact, according to current atmospheric science, CO2 make up .04 percent of it. It will not be practical to try to separate such small percentage of gas from our air. Besides, CO2 is a good thing. Only we dumb humans think its bad and use it as a weapon to dumb us down even further. By the way, carbon sequestration technology already exist that works amazingly well. Its call plants. Just plant more trees, flowers and crops and we have the most efficient carbon sequestration systems on earth working non stop for us.
@@richardgardner4252
I understand that CO2 is a tiny fraction of our atmosphere, but this is exactly what makes separating it from air and sequestering the carbon so effective. If it were a higher percentage, we would have much less hope of reducing the amount of carbon that's in the air with techniques like this. Your point about plants, though, is very well taken. They do provide a very fairly effective and highly scalable method of sequestration. Since, as the video explains, these liquid air battery facilities already remove CO2 from air before liquefying it, maybe there's a way to release this CO2 in places where it will be more likely to be absorbed by plants. Maybe forests, jungles, and greenhouses. Clearly, I'm not a scientist. I'm just thinking out loud, possibly foolishly.
It's called the gas of life. So, who cares! Why does anyone worry about THAT, when we have multiple sites, dumping nuclear waste into running rivers, DAILY, since before you were born?!?!
@@thediplomasta5891 You sound like someone who might have a plan, but you didn't mention what it was.
@@JeffClough how about, not wasting my time or energy, arranging the deck chairs on the titanic. The only way out, is to crash the system. We have faceless corporations making these decisions. There's nobody to fire. We created a ghost, and then made it our master.
But keep an eye out. Not long to wait.
Good idea!I can see this working!
you are a brilliant speaker! Thank you for your videos
When I first you waving the hammer and the off screen voice said "Put the hammer down", I thought, "Use the hammer, use the hammer".
Considering the air is liquidfied by cooling, it occured to me that co2 would freeze out of this as well, possible combination of energy storage and carbon capture comes to mind.
Nope, CO2 & H2O are contaminants, that would freeze and block pipes.
Remember even at global warming levels CO2 is "only"
415ppm
H2O and CO2 are removed prior to the cryo stage by zeolites. When those are saturated, the H2O and CO2 are removed by baking the zeolites.
And oxygen, too. Running an advanced (65+%efficient) engine on as close to pure oxygen as it will handle sounds grand.
@@williamgoode9114 So you're saying that no issue brought up by a sub-genius after 2 seconds of thought can be solved, even if operational examples of the declared impossible device currently exist?
@@richardcaldwell6159 exactly, 2seconds, firststage of cooling out comes the water vapour.
CO2 also is easy, but the other gases oxygen and nitrogen are not seperated.
You.... are.... awesome. Well done.
Very nice 👍 thank you for all this great information.
Very informative, Dave! I'd heard of liquid air batteries, but was clueless how they worked. It's great to see yet another solution for storing renewable energy when it's abundant -to then use later when it's not. Because there are always losses when transferring energy, I would be curious to know the percentage lost when converting it to liquid air, and then liquid air back to electricity. How do its losses compare with other solutions? Is there one that proves more efficient than others? Thanks for another great episode!
@@erdelegy That was the efficiency quoted, so the loss would be 40%.
Pumped hydro (and presumably pumped air) are pretty efficient, but they have major geological constraints, not to mention the ecological problems associated with flooding a valley. The relatively small footprint of the liquid air batteries is a plus compared to the pumped approaches.
He wasn't listening to the video. 🙄🙄
Hi Mark. Here's some comparative gumpf that I found...
Overall coal plant efficiency ranges from 32 % to 42 %. This is mainly dictated by the Superheat and Reheat steam temperatures and Superheat pressures. Most of the large power plants operate at steam pressures of 170 bar and 570 °C Superheat, and 570 ° C reheat temperatures. The efficiencies of these plants range from 35 % to 38 %. Super critical power plants operating at 220 bar and 600/600 °C can achieve efficiencies of 42 %. Ultra super critical pressure power plants at 300 bar and 600/600 °C can achieve efficiencies in the range of 45% to 48 % efficiency.
Gas turbines in the simple cycle mode, only Gas turbines running, have an efficiency of 32 % to 38 %. The most important parameter that dictates the efficiency is the maximum gas temperature possible. The latest Gas Turbines with technological advances in materials and aerodynamics has efficiencies up to 38 %. In the combined cycle mode, the new “H class” Gas turbines with a triple pressure HRSG and steam turbine can run at 60 % efficiency at ISO conditions. This is by far the highest efficiency in the thermal power field.
I think 60% efficiency is regarded as pretty good.
Mark - LAES is Bullshit. its only 75% Efficient at BEST, whereas Tesla MEGAPACK is 98% Efficient.
and LAES still requires FOSSIL FUELS to Power the Plant.
and Tesla Autobidder software can BUY Energy when its Cheapest and SELL it back when DEMAND is HIGH.
Megapak can be Delivered on a Flatbed truck and installed in 100 Days.
I have always said we really need to learn to use less energy so negating the need to build more power generators
Very true, engineer out the demand, then engineer in the efficiency, then clean up the supply, add some smoothing, and then maybe some storage.
That's the only way to actually overcome the current climate change.. I'm glad more people understand this. There is no way we can tackle climate change by producing more of energy or things from raw material.. We need to incorporate this in our lifestyle
@@nitin577 How is an excess of clean energy incompatible with overcoming climate change? It's not. Cheap clean energy allows us to do all sorts of things that clean up the environment rather than harm it. Direct air capture of CO2, for example.
@@incognitotorpedo42 You have to understand that clean energy doesn't exist, unless you can do photosynthesis. A windmill or a solar panel require materials to be extracted, refined and assembled. Can it be done in a clean way ? No. Even recycling, as good as it sounds, isn't clean. There's always a cost.
Very cool stuff!
Glad your on the side of the environment. Thank you.
60% efficiency is absolutely amazing... IF it is true. we have seen many programs which tout high efficiency numbers but on closer scrutiny they dont get more than 10-15%. If this were true many companies and countries would be rushing to buy/build their own.
When I was in power stations, 1962 - 1972, base load stations ran at just over 30% efficiency. 60% is like a dream come true. Exciting times ahead and the jolly old UK is again in the mix. Regards
@Peter Mortensen 30% typical, Japan claims 40% as super clean. You
see, they do have a sense of humour!
I agree that 60% verified efficiency is a game changer. When the raw supply is endless and demand vs supply times are the only major challenge, we can ignore efficiency to some extent when the environment is not threatened. I also have great hopes for ammonia economy if the byproducts can be avoided or mitigated. Air batteries for fixed energy storage, ammonia for mobile. Might save us a war or two.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on Don Sadoway's/Ambri's liquid metal batteries.
So would I. Here is Sadoway talking about it:
ruclips.net/video/NiRrvxjrJ1U/видео.html
Yes, please. Alt-energy youtubers avoid it like the plague for some reason, and I'd like to know why. Seems promising to me.
@@OnlyFactsPlease agreed, very good idea. Apparently Miners are very secretive and have traditionally been affected by the fumes of explosives, poisonous materials, dust and "dreams of avarice"..
In days gone by, Elon Musk would have been a Mining Magnate instead of applying independent thinking to Technology in IT.
So there are many minds hidden in Donald Sadoway's Graduates who aren't on public display like the Professor. It needs more Entrepreneurial Engineering Radicals to re-invent Mining Infrastructures using renewable techniques.
Hi Tim. I've heard of them but I haven't researched them. It's a good shout. I'll take a look :-)
@@JustHaveaThink I think that sharing from the get-go the concept of Simply reversing the process by which raw bauxite is converted to refined aluminum which notoriously uses incredible amounts of energy right? So if it takes a tremendous amount of energy and the process involves reversible steps the thinking was you could get that energy back!
The problem is that aluminum is valuable. And going to a penny for Killa 1 hour equivalent is not cheap enough by far.
Liquifying free vapor AKA gas AK atmosphere or nitrogen and oxygen has the economies of scale that are not linear. Linear is not good enough When shopping for economies of scale. You have to have exponential economies of scale. You have to be able to "bounce."
Love your videos, I learned so much.
Everyone talks about windmills, solar, and batteries. But I've never seen or read anything about what are surely amazing solid systems to convert voltages and DC to AC. At massive amperages.
CRYO IS THE NEW STEAM!!
I'm so glad you finally broached LAES -- there's more to the LAES story than Highview, there's also Keuka Energy's mechanical wind-LAES system. Keuka has prototyped an off-shore wind-driven LAES-capture system, but with a $128million DOE contract they will be able to build a fully working vertically-integrated pilot.
The advantages of a marine ship-to-shore LAES system cannot be understated, esp as there are so many benefits to Cryo in general. One is thermo-remediation in the thermally degraded cryosphere, where we could opt to stabilize marine ice shelves, nearby inland tundra, even glacial stades.
But most important is the CO2 sequestration. Although currently Highview may be opting to use LOX & CO2 to thermally enhance their power generation (making it carbon neutral), in the future Cryo storage may opt instead employ convert it to hydrocarbon or Sodium or Calcium (bi)carbonate for long term sequestration.
see also ... www[.]keukaenergy[.]com
Do you know if this tech is also scalable down, so we could eventually have a liquid air battery to store energy at home, or, business, or school?
Educated guess: No... Keeping the air cool will become much more cheaper if the tanks are bigger..
No.
Absolutely, the only issue would be system management and safety concerns. Example having a monitoring company to respond to potential system failure like pressure regulation. If a system fails it could pose an explosion threat if left unattended.
I believe the scalability mentioned in the video is more upwards than downards
@@Dundoril You are correct, for your reason given. Very often "economy of scale" make "doing things" per unit cheaper at larger scales which are more expensive on a smaller scale ( less units).
What about combining it with a oxygen separation from liquid air and waste incineration plant? Oxygen can be used for hight temperature combustion, avoiding dioxins and heat of combustion can be used to achieve higher gas expansion in the turbine converting energy of boiling liquified gas.
LAES is Bullshit, it still REQUIES burning of Fossil Fuels to power the Plant.
Tesla MEGAPACK has no Moving Parts and uses Renewable Energy.
Stroporez the air battery has the advantage of using the oxygen in the air not carrying it in the electrode reducing weight.
@@Dana5775 this is not a thing.
I wondered about this, but it requires joined-up thinking and cooperation between the different industries, something which (at least in the UK) is sadly lacking. If the liquid air storage people could work with the incinerator designers, industrial gas suppliers, district heating operators, cold-store users and so on it would be brilliant.
Thank you for this video
Very good information to know. Thanks.
I was waiting for a drawback to this technology. But the worst thing about it seems to be the 60% efficiency which isn't great but also not catastrophic.
60%, At Best! I think we can do better!
@@robinholmes785 How?
60% vs solar PVs 17~21%
@@g4egk that's not a fair comparison. PV's are electric power generating devices and we're talking about energy storage here. Pumped hydro has an efficiency of 70 to 85 %. Batteries have more like 99% I think. Hydrogen is much lower if I remember correctly.
And maybe with scaling up and technological improvements the 60% can become 70% someday.
At the end of the day it comes down to a trade off. 60% efficiency is pretty good and there are no contaminants or toxins involved in any way. Sounds good to me.
I admit this energy storage scheme is new to me, I've used a lot of LN2 and was led to believe the industry was very energy innefficient. Are they presently achieving the level of waste energy recovery required by this design? Looks to me like what you see on the cover of Popular Mechanics, and don't see again.
Thank you for a stimulating session on a subject that I was aware of, but not up to speed with the advances! I was pleased to hear that UK engineers from fossil fuel industries have migrated to this technology. I always thought since the UK coal mining industry redundancies that successive governments ignored the opportunities in renewable sources of energy to make available conversion training. I no longer live in the UK, but I follow the news with Google Alerts plus your Channel now!
Great video!
This is beautiful! I just hope that the cost of this will be reasonable. It seems pretty green, so I for one am willing to pay extra for this type of storage though.
I'm pretty sure they have a levelized cost of storage (LCOS) of $140/MWh. Which puts them around about the same as the cheapest lithium batteries, dispute being only 60% efficient.
@@MrGonzonator Hmm. That's not terribly impressive, then. Li-ion prices are coming down, but air liquification is mature tech, not likely to get much cheaper.
@@incognitotorpedo42 I think both could work at the same time. The nice thing here is that it doesn't use any of the same materials as batteries, which seem to be in short supply given the problems some legacy auto manufacturers seem to be having sourcing them. Their price estimate is for their current size system, but scaling up the storage element (more tanks) would be only half the price, compared to batteries where its basically all of the cost.
@@MrGonzonator Have a look at Sadoway's liquid metal batteries - using only fairly abundant materials:
ruclips.net/video/NiRrvxjrJ1U/видео.html
MIKE - Tesla MEGAPACK cost less to Operate.
Megapack can be deployed in less than 100 days.
TESLA Autobidder software can BUY/SELL Energy at the BEST Price way faster than ANY Human can.
I'd like to note that the air in this process isn't thin but actually pretty dense :D
My boyfriend called me an airhead last week, well now I gunna tell him Im not, Im actually pretty dense, so there !
Literally energy from thick air. The video title was just clickbait.
The energy that drives the turbines comes from the heat contained in the ambient air that is used to evaporate the liquid air.
Hence, liquid-air...
It's starts of as thin as a morning breath..
Awesome show👌 I didn't even know this technology existed 👍this really got me interested 🤔
Well done Sir.
Cool graphics Dave, and this method of storage looks to be one of the most beautiful elegant storage solutions, plus it's already well krausened technology offering a jobs transfer to oil and gas field workers, which should make many people rest easier. Any chance they could put a side spigot for samples of liquid air to cool our homes on these hot summer days?😇🐧🐧🐧
Very interesting! Question though: what becomes of the filtered carbon dioxide and other gases in the cooling filtration process part of this? Thanks!
Probably released into the atmosphere, where they came from originally. Adding carbon capture capability, is a distraction, here, so stay away from mission creep (salesmen). Keep it simple. This is almost as simple as pumped hydro, without the geographical restrictions, and is scale-able, both up and down. The components already exist. The turbines will have an easier time since they're not running at high temperatures. Around room temperature if designed correctly. Minimize adding secondary cycles, since the added complexity, to squeeze out efficiency, will be a determent to reliability. If you get the energy generation cost down, you can sacrifice efficiency. Rule of KISS (Keep it simple, stupid !)
Great answer, Michael! Thank you. :-)
Question is how feasible is this for home set up?
@@buliameenoladayo3074 Nya, home setup is not so much within the scope for this technology. From what I've read i.a. the company themselves say, 50 MW upwards is where it becomes economically interesting. For applications below that (= you want private storage at home), Li-ion or similar batteries will probably remain the technology of choice.
Brilliant idea
Felicitaciones por la calidad de la información y la claridad en la forma que lo explica. Saludos desde Argentina...
I would be interested to have your views on using computer controlled integration of systems across Europe to maximise efficiency. When the wind is not blowing here in UK, it s probably blowing strongly in another country. Similarly the sunshine will be bright somewhere.
Hi Chris. That's pretty much exactly what is currently being built out all across continental Europe today. It is the Distributed Smart Grid of the future.
Is there enough going on for a video? If there is, may we have one please?
Interesting video. So at 7:56 "Roundtrip system efficiency of around 60%". That means 40% of energy is lost by storing it in this liquid air battery and retrieving it again? I wonder how this compares to the other alternatives, chemical batteries or pumped storage etc.? I guess even storing energy with losses like this beats losing the energy altogether.
TESLA Megapack is 98% Efficient , even IF you only use OFF PEAK energy to Charge it.
but, Megapack can be Directly connected to Renewable Energy and to the GRID as well.
each Megapack is 3mw and is SCALEABLE and can be Delivered on a Flatbed and Installed in just 100 days.
@@markplott4820 Great. Want to compare costs per amount of energy stored?
@@rendomstranger8698 TESLA Energy still comes out AHEAD, even IF you charge MEGAPACK just on OFF PEAK energy (7c/kwh) , you can SELL the Energy at PEAK rates for a PROFIT during HIGH DEMAND times.
a Cryo Battery will STILL require Maintanance , Megapack is completely SELF SUFFICIENT it has a BATTERY MANAGEMENT system.
Also, cryo battery will be VERY EXPENSIVE to build and ONLY last 20 years, Megapack can last 80 years and when CHEAPER and SUPERIOR batteries are Developed they can be EXCHANGED.
@@markplott4820 Why do you FEEL the need to WRITE a WORD in all CPAS several times EVERY line?
More like 35% efficient, they can only get it up to 60% by placing the plant next to a conventional power plant and uses the waste heat.
Great info!
Great idea!