I've had a lot of luck with having a bumpy vase. Like the trashcan you've printed, corrugations add strength without much more extruded thickness. My go to shape is a shallow vertical rhomboidal pyramid dent to the surface, with a decent fillet. None of the surfaces overhang by more than 20 or so degrees. Pretty sturdy.
This. Straight and even circular lines are weak AF. How do they make the polycarbonate or ABS lid on "your" laptop as strong and rigid as a sheet of 1.5mm Al, while being thinner than a Poundland credit card? Profiling. It's _all_ about profiling. That's been the key to so much material engineering tech the last 2 decades it's wild.
Buckminster Fuller used the terminology “compound curvature” that achieves the virtual thickness which provides such strength with so little material. You could absolutely make cars without curves for their sides and general shape, just be vertical sides. But other than being hideous, it’d require a large amount of metal to have anything resembling safety: curves aren’t just more attractive (potentially) they’re functional, too!
To fix the bottom of your vase,instead of a raft, just increase the number of bottom layers in the print. I typically do about 5 bottom layers to get a nice strong bottom. I do alot of actual vases, and I also tend to pour a little epoxy in the bottom and roll is around to make sure they hold water.
Thread width is not "limited" by the size of the hole (0.4, 0.6 etc.) in the nozzle but by the flat part around the hole. You are pressurizing the material against this area. Once you get wider there's no constraint and it starts to behave unstable. It can go sideways as well as up (or even down). You can cut the nozzle tip up to the hexagon shape. Then you can print up to ~10 mm wide walls in a single run. But keep volumetric speed low.
The only problem is that the extrusion hole only goes up into the nozzle a millimeter or two. The nozzle has a cone shape cut into it and the extrusion hole after. So if you cut the tip of the nozzle too short you'd also start increasing the size of the extrusion hole. For more information cnckitchen has a video on worn nozzles.
10mm sounds pretty extreme, but I'd definitely be interested in a nozzle with a wider tip. This could save a lot of extra perimeter rounds, and might also make ironing quicker/better.
Prusa slicer has a setting to set a limit on volumetric flow. Meaning that increasing the line with the slicer will automatically slow down the print in order to maintain the extruders flow rate preventing skips.
To fix your bottom layers problem in Cura, you can do two things IMO: 1. Change the "Top/Bottom Line Width" to a value that works for your setup (e.g. 0.6). This will not affect the thickness of the vase-mode walls, that actually are "Outer Wall" (Works in 4.8.0, but I just noticed this is bugged in Cura Arachne beta 2, so other version may have that bug as well). 2. Also increase the number of bottom (or initial bottom) layers as another comment says I think, but to a large value to match the strength of the main wall (e.g. 5 or even more). You may note as well that this setting actually allows you to "cheat" with what cura normally allows, as you can now have a part printed solid with multiple walls for the beginning of the print over the first N layers, then go to spiralized/vase mode :) This has been actually useful in some cases for me. Also the reason you may be seeing problems in cura at around 6:12 is because your model is hollow I think, so maybe you could try with a fully solid model, OR alternatively try cheating with a positive horizontal expansion (not sure that would work, but easy to do).
Very informative! Another thing to increase the wall width, at the cost of print time, is to model the part hollow (as is printed) and cut a strip into it along the Z direction. That way you'll print "two walls" instead of one, both in vase mode. There will be a visible seam though. Also keep in mind that if the gap is too small the slicer may just ignore it and print right on through. This technique also enables you to print models in vase mode that wouldn't have otherwise been possible (or just suited to)! Cross section in the XY plane of the model with the gap: #### # # #
In Cura, you can set separate line widths for top/bottom, use nozzle width there, and for perimeters use 2x. Will fix your bottom issue right away. I've printed up to 1mm wide vase walls with 0.4mm nozzle.
Are the diagonal lines slanted towards the direction the nozzle is travelling in while printing? If they are I would guess that it's a stacking error - a small error on a low layer propagates through the print as each time the nozzle gets to that point the extrusion is deformed by the previous layer.
I printed "ear savers" for masks. They only have two layers and consist only of perimeters (so basically a vase). I managed to print 1.9mm width on a 0.4mm nozzle. Having a E3D style nozzle helps a lot, as they have a large flat surface to iron down the molten plastic.
the 2mm looks interesting. that is the exact same thing i got on a normal print when my nozzle was clogged. it loks like underextrusion; it would have been nice to see the nozzle temp graph on that print, since i thing it might have been oscillating a bit. with upping the temp or using a stronger heater might make it possible. nice video btw
I don't remember but the issue is the block is a huge reserve of temperature and that's where the thermocouple is, so you would need a thermal imaging cam or something to see the nozzle temp.
If not using an upgraded heatblock, like the phaetus or even a volcano or super volcano, a heaterd cartridge upgrade to 70W or so is very recommended, makes for quicker heating and more consistent temps. At thhose extreme line widths
From my own experiments, using 1.8mm nozzle I managed to print ~14mm wide parameters. Up to 5~6mm the lines are pretty clean but the thicker they are the more artifacts and deformations you will see on the surface of the line and also on the sides as well.
I raise you one better: i made a custom 2.5mm nozzle that works with 1.75mm filament. I used that to extrude 3mm wide vase prints. It works because the molten filament sticks to the nozzle sides and creates contact with the unmolten filament. I had that ripple effect too, i think it has something to do with extruding too wide with too low a layer height. the width to height of the extrusion shouldnt exceed around 4:1 otherwise i´ve seen those ripples happen
@@LostInTech3D yes exactly! No problem at all. I did use a volcano nozzle tho so the melt zone is a bit longer. If you want pictures let me know your email i‘ll drop you some
If you keep an eye on your throughput not getting too high and causing the clicking you mentioned you can print very wide beads. I have run 2mm and 3mm nozzles with 1.75mm filament and just printed something with a 5-6mm bead width!. This did not need a base and was just a single vase mode perimeter. The bead quality looked good and consistent. If you want a nice solid base I would just tell the slicer you want 2-3 base layers instead of 1 and check the extrusion multiplier is giving you the width you request so the beads are touching laterally.
The width u can print in good quality depends on the shape of the tip of ur nozzle. The shape of the Tip (the "flat" area around the hole" varies widely between manufactures but mostly doesn't varry between different "hole sizes". eG: I have two nozzles by the same manufacture, 0.4 and 0.8mm -> the flat area around the holes have the same diameter so in the end I can't really print thicker walls with that 0.8mm nozzle than with the 0.4 from the same manufacture. But I can print faster. A lot.
It's possible the diagonal lines are related to back pressure causing the extruder to skip a little. If the distance between lines remains pretty even along Z, then I'd say this is it. Raising temperature or reducing print speed may reduce these lines if I'm correct.
I just did something similar on accident. I halved my micro steps without halving the rotation distance. Ended up with a line that was little over twice my nozzle but still looked good.
These lines might have something to do with pressure advance or linear advance, or some kind of effect from the very large amount of plastic extruded pulling the newly extruded and still molten layer to the "side", something that progressively moves along the print.
An e3d style nozzle probably does better for over 1.75mm because the flat area around the hole is wider which should get you a slightly better looking result
Larger nozzles are definately not redundant, you just need a bigger hotend, I print with the volcano hotend and a 1mm nozzle, pretty much at the peak volumetric flow the volcano allows
The diagonal lines are caused by the way the Ender 3 V2 saves His eeprom. Because you dont have actual "Layers" the printer makes Up a Point where it thinks that the layer Starts/ends. At that Point the printer must Stop For a Short time to save the current layer it is on. In that Short time the pressure in the nozzle causes individual blobs to form wich Stack up and make this lines
interesting idea...this is to do with the power outage protection isn't it? But I think in this case it's something else, because on my ender 3 v2 I run octoprint, with no sd card in the printer.
Diagonal lines? Does the angle change if you scale up the part size (vase perimeter) or line width? If so it's likely some periodic irregularity in the extruder, could be as extreme as a mangled tooth
yikes. It didn't/doesn't happen with any other settings though so I'm not too concerned for now, but I will keep an eye on the extruder anyway as it's an original plastic creality one about a year past it's sell by date! 😂
I am guessing the seam is diagonal because the perimeter is increasing as you raise up on the item and your slicer is maybe decimating the piece in a quasi cyclical basis, ie, if there's a limit to each chunk of gcode that can be sent and then at the beginning of the next gcode chunk the printer is falling back to baseline rather than printing at our forced anomaly extrusion width
only you could come up with this lol the artifacts, maybe the massive overextrusion is causing a bump, each time round its melted and shifted slightly in travel direction.. sort of like real bad stringing forms diagonal branches growing up the print crossed with the ripples in a base layer thats too close to bed
Oh...just remembered I took macro images of the nozzle when extruding but forgot to put them in the video 🙄 I'll have a look later when I get the data off that camera and see if there's any evidence of this!
Interesting hypothesis. I was wondering if.all of the diagonal artefacts were in the same direction that the nozzle was travelling. One shot (the black one) seemed to be leaning left while the others were leaning right. The other question was whether they all started at the bottom. I noticed several evenly spaced artefacts along the base but only some propagated past the first few layers... This was an interesting video and good information!
I've printed plenty of parts boxes with a 1.5mm extrusion width and 0.8mm nozzle. I don't see any of the artifacts you've seen, though obviously 1.5mm < 2mm. Prusa MK3S.
>little other practical use Wrong. It's perfect for making components with tight clearances. I used it to print functional .577 snider cases for an antique rifle as vase mode is the only way to produce a perfectly continuous pipe segment.
You hit the extruding capability. The Ender 3 needs a lot of help to get more flow. With some serious tweaks you could get more of out it but there's always gonna just be a hard limit on your flow (unless you went to some sort of molten filament chamber, hmmmm)
@@LostInTech3D In slicers it still does. Look at the slicing, you still see layers displayed and a notch when the z- axis is incremented. You have to change more than a dozen settings to minimize this, and then you're still relying on firmware support to understand a seamless print.
Furthermore, look at the Gcode. There's still incrementing of the X axis at the layer change (even though Cura and Prusaslicer have recently added in gradual steps for the last CM or MMs before the transition.) These transitions are scripted, and don't always take in to consideration all settings in their calculations of extrusion. Think of increasing by .01mm Z as you travel around the object. Even though the transition may be steady to the eye the gcode steps are still causing changes in movement and extrusion in increments that cause the inconsistent layering. Go into Cura and set your seam to "Sharpest Corner" instead of whatever the setting was (it appears it was likely on "Shortest" setting), and watch the ripple move to right before one of the corners instead.
I remember a video from a while back where someone found that was getting measurably accurate 4mm line widths off of a 0.4mm nozzle. You just have to be careful about your flow.
My opinion on the weird artifact. Your flow rates are starting to get high at those thicknesses even at lower speeds. Your extruder is skipping occasionally and something not related to the slicing is pushing it to skip at a constant frequency, just that frequency doesn't correlate with your slicing, ie variation in filament thickness; the line could correspond to one rotation of the spool for example. Otherwise my second guess would be that even though you're using vase mode the slicer is still trying to compensate some flow at certain layer points going up..but you'd think you would only see it on one side, so I really don't think that is probably it..the fact it seems to happen more often when you go higher reinforces extruder skipping or perhaps underflowing/underrunning ie the extruder isn't pushing enough filament to meet the demand
And it's not that mind boggling. Larger nozzles are more about speed. And imagine how wide you can get with bigger nozzles. It's not necessarily the width of the input filament that matters as the filament generally gets squished onto the bed/previous layer as it comes out.
Love the video, but not sure the final conclusion is on point...I'm def still using my 1.0nozzles to print large strong vase mode prints...seems the you've got major print quality issues trying to push the little nozzle too far. Your own 1mm nozzle print looks waay better than the .6...so I dont see the reason to recommend .6 at the end.
@@LostInTech3D i'm not sure how to calculate max flow rate for a hot end, but the Ender 3 hotend is pretty basic and not really up to the task of massive flow rates (while working great for what the vast majority of us are doing). I'd assume you're already approaching/at that limit, but you can always try dialing it in with even slower printspeeds and higher temps. Keep up the great work 🙌
sorry in advance for the essay..... but wow thank you so much for sharing your findings.... I take it back, I am convinced this is the way..... its probably limited in its use cases but I did some work today and took what you laid out in the video and some of what i know from personal experience and started up with a roll of clear PETG (i have had for a few months and keep in a container that wishes it was air tight) and after a few failed starts (literally 3 fails) i was convinced it was going to work and it could even go further and that the issue is bed level.....sure enough i had somehow turned a knob on the back left (using a mostly stock ender 3v2 for context with captube / all-metal hot end and thats about it). I leveled the bed and tried again....the best layers i have ever seen, almost no seams....at this point im floored and my little .5 oz bottle thing finishes in like 20 mins, holds water.(......held water ALL DAY btw, no leaks)....... so tonight im finding the limmit. printed a little rocket for my son thats 50mmx50mmx170mm and I had to crank back the print % speed to about 60-66% cause i was a bit too fast with my speed........ but whats nuts is I still have no thermal issues AT ALL, and not a single click out of my extruder, literally no issues..... only reason i didnt turn the fans up more instead of slowing down was cause i wanted to maximize the clarity of the print (in the end it was about as clear as the filament on its way in ) I really have a hard time understanding why this is not getting more traction. Theres something here for all daily drive printing too, its like real world cheat codes... my final settings if i adjust for the mid print speed tweak. .6mm nozzle line width 1.5 layer height .44 1st layer .46 speed. 25mm 1st layer speed 12-18mm (12 if its only got small bits to attach to the bed or it sorta blobbed in a weird way initial layer temp 77 initial printing temp 255 printing temp 250 final printing temp 245 brim 3 lines, 8mm spacing flowrate 100% initial layer flowrate 130% I was using overture clear PETG, and it came with a textured mat that i have down on top of the standard creality glass bed......but the mat cant possibly help cause its beat to fuck and dirty and it feels like its starting to come p in the middle......by no means is my setup pretty or super well tuned...... but all that and I had 0 surface issues, and only a MINOR deformation at the top of the model where it comes to a point. I feel like i missed some detail since my comment was so long, idk im still finding it hard to believe how well this works, and how STRRRRROOONG these lil parts are EDIT. I forgot to include the time the rocket took to print...... it took a staggering 45mins. (and I could throw it at a wall and it would probs be fine)
My thoughts on the diagonal lines is, fan sink cooling. IE what is it doing after x distance, a natural fluctuating heat of the nozzle micro cooling and heating to stay in range. If thats the case, then you could sink them to be vertical if you knew the exact distance, but if its off slightly, it would create an angular line, diagonal, or something to do with how all th eating s are processing together... thats my take.. perhaps cooling heating, maybe its the filament itself.. but meh, a few things... DO you ever post your save file preferences... those would be good dl's since ou worked out loosely what works. Since the preference save file, can easily be loaded up for such prints... and then we the user end front manipulate form there. I find it a shame that the vase/ spiral mode can't also have lightning mode. If you just want a slightly rigid model for resin casting, expediting print time is more user friendly. Typically not printing a part to use, since the plan tends to be weak regardless... but making a cast, you can choose a better material. I think thats where, 3d printing shines is photo-typing, so think out walls, and intelligent infill... hmm
How "wide" is the metal tip of your nozzle? When extruding plastic through the hole, it will try to fill the space under the hole vertically and then squish outwards helped only a little bit by gravity. As long as the outwards squish remains underneath the flat metal part of the nozzle tip, the extrusion is relatively well controlled, so probably that size is more important than the size of the hole of your nozzle. Likely the "metal wall" around that nozzle hole does not scale up by the same factor as the hole itself when moving from 0.4 to 0.6 to 1 mm nozzle size and that possibly explains why a 0.6mm nozzle is not that much worse than a 1mm one. Just notice someone else already indicated the same... Sorry.
I don't really see a need for vase mode. If you want to print a solid as a hollow with no top then just set the infill to 0% and the top layers to 0 then you get a 'vase mode' that allows you to set the number of layers for the bottom or lines for the sides, much more control than vase mode.
Oh, I've done that too. Actually even easier, use a 15 line brim or so. The vase base thing is something I'm addressing in part 2 which will hopefully be out around the end of this week!
bad things 😂 Seriously though I think (emphasis on think) that nozzle size in cura is largely for you, not it, I'm not sure what else it does other than the advisory colour changes in the settings if you go too large, and some stuff with defaults and which profiles you see as available I think. For example, can't remember if it's in the video but prusaslicer wouldn't let me set a high line width, giving actual errors in slicing, so I lied to it and told it my nozzle was 2mm (or so, I can't remember exactly) - then it pretty much said "sure go ahead". And do you know, it printed fine :) But in terms of what it would do if you changed ONLY the nozzle size while leaving everything else the same? I believe, nothing. Nothing at all.
@@LostInTech3D for me, changing the nozzle size at least changes the line width in Cura (iirc, it's been a while since I experimented with different nozzle sizes). I am not sure if it changes anything else on how it slices under the hood than if you set the same line width but with a smaller nozzle. That's what I meant. ^^
If you're printing in vase mode then you shouldn't model the vase with a thick skin. Instead you should model it as solid and let the slicer make it hollow. Otherwise you end up with two wall polygons on each layer, which can interfere with each other in the Z direction. Those diagonal lines might be where it switches from the one wall to the other. If you're having trouble with getting bottom lines as wide as you request you could also just request less wide lines. Decrease the top/bottom line width to normal size. Don't hack with rafts or wall-skin overlap!
ah. Yeah you might be getting to the edge case of what's possible here. You can slow down I guess. I am not a fan of PETG in case you haven't gathered by my lack of coverage of it!
it seems cura 5 automatically switches the bottom layers to concentric pattern making it harder to remove the holes with method 3 i had to resort to fake vase mode by bv3d which allows it to use zigzag but it adds 30 mins, if you know of a way to get the zig zag pattern please lmk
@@LostInTech3D Thanks so much ! Do you think you could share a "final" settings (3mf file maybe) or sum it up ? I m trying to print it and cura with my ender3 gives me 7hours to print (1.2mm line width, raft / 60% overlap, top layer, @50mm/s, 0.4mm nozzle). Am i missing something ? Thanks again.
Its a bit of a settings hack, but I saw a similar challenge a couple months ago on the MakeWithTech channel... ruclips.net/video/EyorUXLZfxk/видео.html
I've had a lot of luck with having a bumpy vase. Like the trashcan you've printed, corrugations add strength without much more extruded thickness. My go to shape is a shallow vertical rhomboidal pyramid dent to the surface, with a decent fillet. None of the surfaces overhang by more than 20 or so degrees. Pretty sturdy.
This. Straight and even circular lines are weak AF. How do they make the polycarbonate or ABS lid on "your" laptop as strong and rigid as a sheet of 1.5mm Al, while being thinner than a Poundland credit card? Profiling. It's _all_ about profiling. That's been the key to so much material engineering tech the last 2 decades it's wild.
Buckminster Fuller used the terminology “compound curvature” that achieves the virtual thickness which provides such strength with so little material.
You could absolutely make cars without curves for their sides and general shape, just be vertical sides. But other than being hideous, it’d require a large amount of metal to have anything resembling safety: curves aren’t just more attractive (potentially) they’re functional, too!
To fix the bottom of your vase,instead of a raft, just increase the number of bottom layers in the print. I typically do about 5 bottom layers to get a nice strong bottom. I do alot of actual vases, and I also tend to pour a little epoxy in the bottom and roll is around to make sure they hold water.
Thread width is not "limited" by the size of the hole (0.4, 0.6 etc.) in the nozzle but by the flat part around the hole. You are pressurizing the material against this area. Once you get wider there's no constraint and it starts to behave unstable. It can go sideways as well as up (or even down). You can cut the nozzle tip up to the hexagon shape. Then you can print up to ~10 mm wide walls in a single run. But keep volumetric speed low.
This is what I thought too. Would be nice if such nozzles would be available
The only problem is that the extrusion hole only goes up into the nozzle a millimeter or two. The nozzle has a cone shape cut into it and the extrusion hole after. So if you cut the tip of the nozzle too short you'd also start increasing the size of the extrusion hole. For more information cnckitchen has a video on worn nozzles.
10mm sounds pretty extreme, but I'd definitely be interested in a nozzle with a wider tip. This could save a lot of extra perimeter rounds, and might also make ironing quicker/better.
@@remcoder6 Pretty sure this would be pretty doable to DIY.
Offset Z a little helps.
Prusa slicer has a setting to set a limit on volumetric flow. Meaning that increasing the line with the slicer will automatically slow down the print in order to maintain the extruders flow rate preventing skips.
To fix your bottom layers problem in Cura, you can do two things IMO:
1. Change the "Top/Bottom Line Width" to a value that works for your setup (e.g. 0.6). This will not affect the thickness of the vase-mode walls, that actually are "Outer Wall" (Works in 4.8.0, but I just noticed this is bugged in Cura Arachne beta 2, so other version may have that bug as well).
2. Also increase the number of bottom (or initial bottom) layers as another comment says I think, but to a large value to match the strength of the main wall (e.g. 5 or even more).
You may note as well that this setting actually allows you to "cheat" with what cura normally allows, as you can now have a part printed solid with multiple walls for the beginning of the print over the first N layers, then go to spiralized/vase mode :) This has been actually useful in some cases for me.
Also the reason you may be seeing problems in cura at around 6:12 is because your model is hollow I think, so maybe you could try with a fully solid model, OR alternatively try cheating with a positive horizontal expansion (not sure that would work, but easy to do).
Very informative!
Another thing to increase the wall width, at the cost of print time, is to model the part hollow (as is printed) and cut a strip into it along the Z direction. That way you'll print "two walls" instead of one, both in vase mode. There will be a visible seam though. Also keep in mind that if the gap is too small the slicer may just ignore it and print right on through. This technique also enables you to print models in vase mode that wouldn't have otherwise been possible (or just suited to)!
Cross section in the XY plane of the model with the gap:
####
# #
#
I know what you mean, and I will do something on it in future if I get chance
You might be able to make the gap staggered so it doesn't look like a straight line.
@@satibel That's a very good idea!
In Cura, you can set separate line widths for top/bottom, use nozzle width there, and for perimeters use 2x. Will fix your bottom issue right away. I've printed up to 1mm wide vase walls with 0.4mm nozzle.
To get rid of the diagonals, simply try to slow it down and decrease layer height.
Are the diagonal lines slanted towards the direction the nozzle is travelling in while printing?
If they are I would guess that it's a stacking error - a small error on a low layer propagates through the print as each time the nozzle gets to that point the extrusion is deformed by the previous layer.
They are indeed slanted towards the direction the nozzle is traveling. What could fix this? It also happens to me in my BambuLab machine
I love videos like this. Finding limits and unintentional abilities is awesome.
I printed "ear savers" for masks. They only have two layers and consist only of perimeters (so basically a vase). I managed to print 1.9mm width on a 0.4mm nozzle. Having a E3D style nozzle helps a lot, as they have a large flat surface to iron down the molten plastic.
Ender 5, 0.4 mm Nozzle. I Print my Vase with 1mm line width. I tested some speed and my best range is 25mm/s up to 40 mm/s. Depending on the Vase.
This is very interesting, I'm going to push my 0.3 nozzle a lot further now to see what I can get out of it. Thank you for the inspiration!
Glad to help👍
the 2mm looks interesting. that is the exact same thing i got on a normal print when my nozzle was clogged. it loks like underextrusion; it would have been nice to see the nozzle temp graph on that print, since i thing it might have been oscillating a bit. with upping the temp or using a stronger heater might make it possible.
nice video btw
I don't remember but the issue is the block is a huge reserve of temperature and that's where the thermocouple is, so you would need a thermal imaging cam or something to see the nozzle temp.
I wonder how something like a nickel plated volcano would fair.
This is incredibly useful!
Great videos very very informative
Thank you! 👍
Such great information. I’m a huge fan of vase mode. I’ve never gone over 200% on a 0.4mm nozzle. I need to try wider!
idk how your work is not more widely known, your content is up there with cnc kitchen for how informative i find it!
He's been around a lot longer than me...a lot longer. 👍
If not using an upgraded heatblock, like the phaetus or even a volcano or super volcano, a heaterd cartridge upgrade to 70W or so is very recommended, makes for quicker heating and more consistent temps. At thhose extreme line widths
Great videos as always!
From my own experiments, using 1.8mm nozzle I managed to print ~14mm wide parameters. Up to 5~6mm the lines are pretty clean but the thicker they are the more artifacts and deformations you will see on the surface of the line and also on the sides as well.
I raise you one better: i made a custom 2.5mm nozzle that works with 1.75mm filament. I used that to extrude 3mm wide vase prints. It works because the molten filament sticks to the nozzle sides and creates contact with the unmolten filament. I had that ripple effect too, i think it has something to do with extruding too wide with too low a layer height. the width to height of the extrusion shouldnt exceed around 4:1 otherwise i´ve seen those ripples happen
Ah! I wondered whether extruding to a wider nozzle would work but I guess you are getting turbulence, basically.
@@LostInTech3D yes exactly! No problem at all. I did use a volcano nozzle tho so the melt zone is a bit longer. If you want pictures let me know your email i‘ll drop you some
If you keep an eye on your throughput not getting too high and causing the clicking you mentioned you can print very wide beads. I have run 2mm and 3mm nozzles with 1.75mm filament and just printed something with a 5-6mm bead width!. This did not need a base and was just a single vase mode perimeter. The bead quality looked good and consistent. If you want a nice solid base I would just tell the slicer you want 2-3 base layers instead of 1 and check the extrusion multiplier is giving you the width you request so the beads are touching laterally.
Nice video clip, keep it up , thank you for sharing :)
i love your videos they are so well made
3:00 a Sieve to grade powder size
The width u can print in good quality depends on the shape of the tip of ur nozzle. The shape of the Tip (the "flat" area around the hole" varies widely between manufactures but mostly doesn't varry between different "hole sizes". eG: I have two nozzles by the same manufacture, 0.4 and 0.8mm -> the flat area around the holes have the same diameter so in the end I can't really print thicker walls with that 0.8mm nozzle than with the 0.4 from the same manufacture. But I can print faster. A lot.
that's exactly what I thought, although I couldn't prove it without better equipment, maybe I need a collab with smarter every day 😂👍
It's possible the diagonal lines are related to back pressure causing the extruder to skip a little. If the distance between lines remains pretty even along Z, then I'd say this is it.
Raising temperature or reducing print speed may reduce these lines if I'm correct.
Option 4 use custom layer settings and have it use standard settings for the base
I just did something similar on accident. I halved my micro steps without halving the rotation distance. Ended up with a line that was little over twice my nozzle but still looked good.
These lines might have something to do with pressure advance or linear advance, or some kind of effect from the very large amount of plastic extruded pulling the newly extruded and still molten layer to the "side", something that progressively moves along the print.
An e3d style nozzle probably does better for over 1.75mm because the flat area around the hole is wider which should get you a slightly better looking result
just so happens I have some of those on other printers 👍
Larger nozzles are definately not redundant, you just need a bigger hotend, I print with the volcano hotend and a 1mm nozzle, pretty much at the peak volumetric flow the volcano allows
See episode 2 👍
The diagonal lines are caused by the way the Ender 3 V2 saves His eeprom. Because you dont have actual "Layers" the printer makes Up a Point where it thinks that the layer Starts/ends. At that Point the printer must Stop For a Short time to save the current layer it is on. In that Short time the pressure in the nozzle causes individual blobs to form wich Stack up and make this lines
interesting idea...this is to do with the power outage protection isn't it?
But I think in this case it's something else, because on my ender 3 v2 I run octoprint, with no sd card in the printer.
Diagonal lines? Does the angle change if you scale up the part size (vase perimeter) or line width? If so it's likely some periodic irregularity in the extruder, could be as extreme as a mangled tooth
yikes. It didn't/doesn't happen with any other settings though so I'm not too concerned for now, but I will keep an eye on the extruder anyway as it's an original plastic creality one about a year past it's sell by date! 😂
I am guessing the seam is diagonal because the perimeter is increasing as you raise up on the item and your slicer is maybe decimating the piece in a quasi cyclical basis, ie, if there's a limit to each chunk of gcode that can be sent and then at the beginning of the next gcode chunk the printer is falling back to baseline rather than printing at our forced anomaly extrusion width
only you could come up with this lol
the artifacts, maybe the massive overextrusion is causing a bump, each time round its melted and shifted slightly in travel direction.. sort of like real bad stringing forms diagonal branches growing up the print crossed with the ripples in a base layer thats too close to bed
Oh...just remembered I took macro images of the nozzle when extruding but forgot to put them in the video 🙄 I'll have a look later when I get the data off that camera and see if there's any evidence of this!
Interesting hypothesis. I was wondering if.all of the diagonal artefacts were in the same direction that the nozzle was travelling. One shot (the black one) seemed to be leaning left while the others were leaning right. The other question was whether they all started at the bottom. I noticed several evenly spaced artefacts along the base but only some propagated past the first few layers... This was an interesting video and good information!
My bet; the extruder slips a lil bit at one exact point in its rotation and it happens to be a a little more or less than the vase's perimeter
I've printed plenty of parts boxes with a 1.5mm extrusion width and 0.8mm nozzle. I don't see any of the artifacts you've seen, though obviously 1.5mm < 2mm. Prusa MK3S.
>little other practical use
Wrong. It's perfect for making components with tight clearances. I used it to print functional .577 snider cases for an antique rifle as vase mode is the only way to produce a perfectly continuous pipe segment.
interesting - I would never have thought of using vase mode for functional parts
You hit the extruding capability. The Ender 3 needs a lot of help to get more flow. With some serious tweaks you could get more of out it but there's always gonna just be a hard limit on your flow (unless you went to some sort of molten filament chamber, hmmmm)
Diagonal lines: the step from layer to layer; the step has a non-vertical profile so it progresses radially about the váse.
Vase mode should print in a spiral though so there shouldn't be any stepping.
The artifacts on the side are the seams. At the end of a layer it's not waiting at the final point for long enough to extrude the extra material.
An interesting theory, but vase mode doesn't have layers.
@@LostInTech3D In slicers it still does. Look at the slicing, you still see layers displayed and a notch when the z- axis is incremented. You have to change more than a dozen settings to minimize this, and then you're still relying on firmware support to understand a seamless print.
Furthermore, look at the Gcode. There's still incrementing of the X axis at the layer change (even though Cura and Prusaslicer have recently added in gradual steps for the last CM or MMs before the transition.) These transitions are scripted, and don't always take in to consideration all settings in their calculations of extrusion. Think of increasing by .01mm Z as you travel around the object. Even though the transition may be steady to the eye the gcode steps are still causing changes in movement and extrusion in increments that cause the inconsistent layering.
Go into Cura and set your seam to "Sharpest Corner" instead of whatever the setting was (it appears it was likely on "Shortest" setting), and watch the ripple move to right before one of the corners instead.
Well - I am making a new video about this soon so I will have a poke around at this! 👍
I remember a video from a while back where someone found that was getting measurably accurate 4mm line widths off of a 0.4mm nozzle. You just have to be careful about your flow.
Hah. I got those exact same bins. Exactly what I use vase mode for. Used a .6 nozzle at 1mm LW
I think the diagonal lines could be from pressure advance or some form of that your printer uses
My opinion on the weird artifact. Your flow rates are starting to get high at those thicknesses even at lower speeds. Your extruder is skipping occasionally and something not related to the slicing is pushing it to skip at a constant frequency, just that frequency doesn't correlate with your slicing, ie variation in filament thickness; the line could correspond to one rotation of the spool for example. Otherwise my second guess would be that even though you're using vase mode the slicer is still trying to compensate some flow at certain layer points going up..but you'd think you would only see it on one side, so I really don't think that is probably it..the fact it seems to happen more often when you go higher reinforces extruder skipping or perhaps underflowing/underrunning ie the extruder isn't pushing enough filament to meet the demand
And it's not that mind boggling. Larger nozzles are more about speed. And imagine how wide you can get with bigger nozzles. It's not necessarily the width of the input filament that matters as the filament generally gets squished onto the bed/previous layer as it comes out.
And as another commentor said because of that, the flat area on the nozzle can impact the maximum stably reachable widths
For first layer elephant's foot compensation is also a good option to disable, or worth a try modifying
increase shell bottom layers to 2 or 3
Love the video, but not sure the final conclusion is on point...I'm def still using my 1.0nozzles to print large strong vase mode prints...seems the you've got major print quality issues trying to push the little nozzle too far. Your own 1mm nozzle print looks waay better than the .6...so I dont see the reason to recommend .6 at the end.
Yeah, I'm hoping to try some much larger nozzles at some point and revisit this, maybe with the CHT nozzle - they do a 1.8mm!!
@@LostInTech3D i'm not sure how to calculate max flow rate for a hot end, but the Ender 3 hotend is pretty basic and not really up to the task of massive flow rates (while working great for what the vast majority of us are doing). I'd assume you're already approaching/at that limit, but you can always try dialing it in with even slower printspeeds and higher temps. Keep up the great work 🙌
7:02 stop, my tiny mind cant handle this
sorry in advance for the essay..... but wow thank you so much for sharing your findings.... I take it back, I am convinced this is the way..... its probably limited in its use cases but I did some work today and took what you laid out in the video and some of what i know from personal experience and started up with a roll of clear PETG (i have had for a few months and keep in a container that wishes it was air tight) and after a few failed starts (literally 3 fails) i was convinced it was going to work and it could even go further and that the issue is bed level.....sure enough i had somehow turned a knob on the back left (using a mostly stock ender 3v2 for context with captube / all-metal hot end and thats about it). I leveled the bed and tried again....the best layers i have ever seen, almost no seams....at this point im floored and my little .5 oz bottle thing finishes in like 20 mins, holds water.(......held water ALL DAY btw, no leaks)....... so tonight im finding the limmit. printed a little rocket for my son thats 50mmx50mmx170mm and I had to crank back the print % speed to about 60-66% cause i was a bit too fast with my speed........ but whats nuts is I still have no thermal issues AT ALL, and not a single click out of my extruder, literally no issues..... only reason i didnt turn the fans up more instead of slowing down was cause i wanted to maximize the clarity of the print (in the end it was about as clear as the filament on its way in ) I really have a hard time understanding why this is not getting more traction. Theres something here for all daily drive printing too, its like real world cheat codes...
my final settings if i adjust for the mid print speed tweak.
.6mm nozzle
line width 1.5
layer height .44
1st layer .46
speed. 25mm
1st layer speed 12-18mm (12 if its only got small bits to attach to the bed or it sorta blobbed in a weird way
initial layer temp 77
initial printing temp 255
printing temp 250
final printing temp 245
brim 3 lines, 8mm spacing
flowrate 100%
initial layer flowrate 130%
I was using overture clear PETG, and it came with a textured mat that i have down on top of the standard creality glass bed......but the mat cant possibly help cause its beat to fuck and dirty and it feels like its starting to come p in the middle......by no means is my setup pretty or super well tuned...... but all that and I had 0 surface issues, and only a MINOR deformation at the top of the model where it comes to a point.
I feel like i missed some detail since my comment was so long, idk im still finding it hard to believe how well this works, and how STRRRRROOONG these lil parts are
EDIT. I forgot to include the time the rocket took to print...... it took a staggering 45mins. (and I could throw it at a wall and it would probs be fine)
Print with no infill no top layer and 3 walls. And you have an useful vase
My thoughts on the diagonal lines is, fan sink cooling. IE what is it doing after x distance, a natural fluctuating heat of the nozzle micro cooling and heating to stay in range. If thats the case, then you could sink them to be vertical if you knew the exact distance, but if its off slightly, it would create an angular line, diagonal, or something to do with how all th eating s are processing together... thats my take.. perhaps cooling heating, maybe its the filament itself.. but meh, a few things...
DO you ever post your save file preferences... those would be good dl's since ou worked out loosely what works. Since the preference save file, can easily be loaded up for such prints... and then we the user end front manipulate form there.
I find it a shame that the vase/ spiral mode can't also have lightning mode. If you just want a slightly rigid model for resin casting, expediting print time is more user friendly. Typically not printing a part to use, since the plan tends to be weak regardless... but making a cast, you can choose a better material. I think thats where, 3d printing shines is photo-typing, so think out walls, and intelligent infill... hmm
I wonder how much a CHT nozzle could help with the 1.8mm+ thick lines, or if it'll make things worse somehow.
It broke so easy because the wall wasn’t starting straight up. You can have as many bottom layers as you want in vase mode.
Average Vayze mode vs chad vahze mode
I often print 1.5mm width, but i use a 0.9mm nozzle that have a big flat end...
What speed do you print at?
1mm nozzles work great for vase mode
See my 2nd episode heheh
U can use ironing to get gaps-free bottom in vase mode.
Trust me, I'm only random guy from the internet. ;D
actually..that kinda makes sense! 😂👍
How "wide" is the metal tip of your nozzle? When extruding plastic through the hole, it will try to fill the space under the hole vertically and then squish outwards helped only a little bit by gravity. As long as the outwards squish remains underneath the flat metal part of the nozzle tip, the extrusion is relatively well controlled, so probably that size is more important than the size of the hole of your nozzle. Likely the "metal wall" around that nozzle hole does not scale up by the same factor as the hole itself when moving from 0.4 to 0.6 to 1 mm nozzle size and that possibly explains why a 0.6mm nozzle is not that much worse than a 1mm one.
Just notice someone else already indicated the same... Sorry.
I also said it in the video so don't worry - I mean, on the plus side that probably makes it true 👍😂
alright here's what you say: vase. not vaze, vase. like the word ace. v-ace. (sorry if this seems mean, but. idk I'm trying to be useful.)
🤣👍
I don't really see a need for vase mode. If you want to print a solid as a hollow with no top then just set the infill to 0% and the top layers to 0 then you get a 'vase mode' that allows you to set the number of layers for the bottom or lines for the sides, much more control than vase mode.
Vase mode is faster because it's all one layer in the gcode, no retraction, no moves without extruding. That's the only difference.
How it would be with a High Flow Nozzle like a BondTech CHT? Seems like the Filament is not melting quick enough
That is a really good question. 👍 I'll put it on my list of things to look into, and it's an excuse to buy one!
@@LostInTech3D I'm really looking forward to see the results. You have very good content on your chanel 👍
I use a raft with 0mm airgap for a stand on lithos. Yeah it's a hack but it's easy.
Oh, I've done that too. Actually even easier, use a 15 line brim or so.
The vase base thing is something I'm addressing in part 2 which will hopefully be out around the end of this week!
Seems PrusaSlicer 2.6.0-alpha6 does not allow a setting equal-or-greater to nozzle diameter * 3 anymore :( 1.79 is max for 0.6 nozzle
That's why you lie and tell it you have a 2mm nozzle. Shh! Nobody needs to know.
Try a Bondtech CHT 1.8mm nozzle, that should get you to 2mm!!
very tempted
What would happen if you set the nozzle with to 2mm in Cura (when in reality it's only 0.6mm) instead of the line width?
bad things 😂
Seriously though I think (emphasis on think) that nozzle size in cura is largely for you, not it, I'm not sure what else it does other than the advisory colour changes in the settings if you go too large, and some stuff with defaults and which profiles you see as available I think.
For example, can't remember if it's in the video but prusaslicer wouldn't let me set a high line width, giving actual errors in slicing, so I lied to it and told it my nozzle was 2mm (or so, I can't remember exactly) - then it pretty much said "sure go ahead". And do you know, it printed fine :)
But in terms of what it would do if you changed ONLY the nozzle size while leaving everything else the same? I believe, nothing. Nothing at all.
@@LostInTech3D for me, changing the nozzle size at least changes the line width in Cura (iirc, it's been a while since I experimented with different nozzle sizes). I am not sure if it changes anything else on how it slices under the hood than if you set the same line width but with a smaller nozzle. That's what I meant. ^^
It certainly doesn't. Nozzle size doesn't factor into extrusion calculations. I looked into it in the flow math video I did.
@@LostInTech3D Ah, thanks for clarifying ^^
@@LostInTech3D so, pretty much when I did different printer profiles for my different nozzle sizes in Cura I just wasted time? 🤣
You should try even wider with a bondtech CHT nozzle
Oh we're going wider, don't worry about that 👍
@@LostInTech3D Awesome.
So, how big can you actually go with line width in vase mode? I've ordered a 1.2mm nozzle to try do 2.4mm 🤔
I did a second episode 😁
@@LostInTech3D Jesus Christ that's some thick lines! So a 2.4mm sturdy desk bin is no issue then! 😁
If you're printing in vase mode then you shouldn't model the vase with a thick skin. Instead you should model it as solid and let the slicer make it hollow. Otherwise you end up with two wall polygons on each layer, which can interfere with each other in the Z direction. Those diagonal lines might be where it switches from the one wall to the other.
If you're having trouble with getting bottom lines as wide as you request you could also just request less wide lines. Decrease the top/bottom line width to normal size. Don't hack with rafts or wall-skin overlap!
Yeah unfortunately I figured that out after the video....such is life.
I wonder if the diagonal lines are either where the Z moves up a layer or some sort of resonant/slicer error?
I'm actually going to be investigating that in the next but one episode hopefully!
I hope you redo this video with Cura 5
It's something I've written down for when I get chance 👍 bit of a queue of videos at the moment!
I print wider than nozzle on all prints
could you share your speeds for 1.2mm@0.6 nozzle please? my simple dual gear bowden seems to be skipping a lot already at 40mm/s and .2 layer height :
Turn up the heat! 🤣
I'll try to remember to dig out the settings from that video, remind me if I forget
@@LostInTech3D on the second thought it's expectable for petg@235C° considering bowden setup and petg properties. Should've mentioned that xd
ah. Yeah you might be getting to the edge case of what's possible here. You can slow down I guess. I am not a fan of PETG in case you haven't gathered by my lack of coverage of it!
Yeah I say Vace
it seems cura 5 automatically switches the bottom layers to concentric pattern making it harder to remove the holes with method 3 i had to resort to fake vase mode by bv3d which allows it to use zigzag but it adds 30 mins, if you know of a way to get the zig zag pattern please lmk
You mean it ignores your setting for Top/bottom pattern?
Aha. Looks like it's a known bug, hopefully will be fixed soon because yeah that's kind of annoying github.com/Ultimaker/Cura/issues/12391
I thought, I´m gonna see if 0,001mm-nozzles can print huge objects in vase-mode... :-( Video went the other direction... I should have known...
May I know where did you get the model for the office trashbin ?
It's this one I believe www.thingiverse.com/thing:3806866
@@LostInTech3D Thanks so much ! Do you think you could share a "final" settings (3mf file maybe) or sum it up ? I m trying to print it and cura with my ender3 gives me 7hours to print (1.2mm line width, raft / 60% overlap, top layer, @50mm/s, 0.4mm nozzle). Am i missing something ? Thanks again.
"no practical use"? what? I've printed a whole bunch of lamps in vase mode...
did I say that? 😂
Its a bit of a settings hack, but I saw a similar challenge a couple months ago on the MakeWithTech channel... ruclips.net/video/EyorUXLZfxk/видео.html
I seem to like you videos even tho you can't speak good english...LOL!
0,8 fast and rigged prints