At 10:32 the data sheet shows 230A for 5 seconds will trip off the BMS. That usually means it trips considerably faster as you exceed that 230A. An inverter that states 200A load is likely stating 200A RMS or "RootMeanSquart". To arrive at the sinusoidal peak value of an RMS value you divide the RMS value by the square root of 2 or 0.707. From this we can see that the when David hit 170A the peaks being drawn from the battery could be upto 170A / 0.707 = 240A That's causing an instantaneous trip. The BMS is thinking a shorting event is happening.
Are you saying the inverter varying the DC current draw from the battery in a way that the BMS is reporting a RMS current on the screen, but it's using peak current draw for over-current protection?
Good testing. I appreciate that you went to such a great effort to test the 200 amp discharge factor. I completely agree that this should be rated as people primarily use it which is with an inverter not just resistive loads. The extra mile you went to test this is much appreciated
To answer the question you proposed at the end of the video ... since most people would be getting such a battery to use, not test, most people will only move the battery once while installing it, so I see no disadvantage to it being heavy ... after all, refrigerators, washers and other appliances are just as heavy. We put them in place and use them without needing to move them again until we replace them. The same would be the case with such a battery ... most people will put it in place and use it until it dies.
AC is not continuos , 60 times a second it's crossing 0 so no current is flowing so then in the DC side for deliver energy to the inverter there are spikes more than 200amps but without an oscilloscope u can't see
I really like the roughly 5 kWh storage size. The weight and dimensions are easier to mess around with. If someone wanted to install say 100+ kWh worth of batteries then the 10+ kWh modules do make sense. But I think for most people who are installing just one or two half-racks worth of batteries (up to around 60 kWh), then the 5 kWh form factor is better. There are other reasons to go with the 5 kWh form factor. Big home systems need to reliably pull or push several hundred amps.. call it 300 amps. You never want to do that from just one or two battery packs where a single BMS failure or drop-out can implode the whole system. That's a lot of momentum to arrest. If a BMS drops out while one is charging at 300 amps it can cause a fairly massive voltage surge on the battery bus. To solve this, one really wants a bunch of independent batteries, each with their own BMS, connected in parallel. With 6 x 100Ah batteries, pushing and pulling 300A will be extremely reliable even in the face of a battery failure. But doing the same thing with 2 x 300Ah batteries is not. A second reason to stick with the smaller 5 kWh form factor is battery density and fire. You can (with a pull-rope) man handle a 5 kWh pack out of a rack and out of the garage if something goes wrong. You can't do that with a 10 kWh pack unless the whole rack is on rollers. And the third reason to stick with, in particular, the smaller form factor used by 5 kWh packs is that as battery density improves, those packs could easily become 10 kWh 5 years from now. Still manageable in the rack. But the 10+ kWh form factor becoming 20 kWh 5 years from now might not be. That's my take. -Matt
David, really enjoy your extraordinarily detailed and thorough reviews. WOW you built a water heater tank....no small effort and expense. I have 9.5KW panels and 42 KW LiFePO4...so I'm not running a tiny system. My wife loves to burn watts. You ask, is bigger better...no way. In regard to this battery...you are young and have much energy and I am in off grid off road in the mountains and in my 70's...this battery size and weight is just plain too heavy and impractical for me. When I previewed this video, I delayed even watching since I would never consider such a heavy battery for this reason. But as always, good job on your review. I definitely recommend that all watcher subscribe.
One added small advantage of the larger capacity/form factor is there are fewer cables and terminal connections required for the same storage capacity. One Victron Lynx Power in (1000 A rated busbar) can connect four of these for 47 kWh of storage. You'd need three such busbars to achieve similar capacity (9 x 100 Ah units), or make you own with 9 terminal connections and all the extra cable and lugs.
The BMS is too sensitive for pulsating amperage. The inverter draws a pulsating DC when making AC of it. It trips on the peak amp not the average current. If you had an oscilloscope you could visualize it. An improved algorithm in the BMS would take care of it or some large capacitors on the battery terminals. If you only used Orient Power inverters and it would trip below rated amps the total fault lies with them.
Surely most people will be using this battery with an inverter, so why do they say max output 200 amps when this is not the case. Perhaps they should say max output is 150 amps.
@@trickydicky6788 max output is (most likely) 200A, just like we saw on the video. And like written above, we cannot see the actual current values as the built-in screen refreshes the value maybe once per second, way too slow to catch the actual min/max values which the internal display just averages out.
@@robertyoung. The inverter is basically making AC power output in "pulses" so it would make sense that the DC amperage coming into the inverter would be coming in pulses as well unless it has some big capacitors to smooth it out.
@@DavidPozEnergyand do put on a few Farads on the terminals. I own Yosma rack batteries rated for 150 but my load is only 100+A from a 5kW inverter. 3 in parallel and the bunch are happy.
I think the issue with this battery is not continuous load, but burst load. Most devices are able to handle 150% - 200% of its continuous load as burst load over a few seconds. Most modern electronics have a very specific way of drawing power where they draw it in short bursts. So what you see as 170A continuous might be a 200A for 30ms then 0A for 5ms, then 200A for 30ms, then 0A for 5ms and so on. You could try to measure that with an oscilloscope. If your device (inverter or in this case a battery) can handle short bursts of 150% up to 1 second, then those devices will be unaffected. But if it get OCP after just a few milliseconds, then you will end up with the effect you see in the video. I think this lack of correct burst handling might be a big problem, since most modern devices are drawing power this way, and during normal work those batteries might have problems with OCP triggering in very little loads.
Thank you for all the effort you went to on this one David! I really like this battery - it makes sense to have larger cells to reduce the total amount of batteries required and therefore the BMS's as well. It would be nice if it was able to supply the full 200 amps, however, personally I would prefer it trip than smoke...
We all have a perfect house and expect all our stuff running smoothly. Amp is amp. Watt is watt. DC is DC. I could go on and on. But how much did you spend on that new water 💦 heater. I do like the fact that you went all in on this test and this was as basic as you can imagine. 😊
How much did I spend to make the resistive load bank? Not sure. I had some of the items already. If you duplicated the build it would probably be about $1,000.
@@DavidPozEnergyholy crap a $1000 bucks! And a week extra of your time.... you sure did go all in and I for 0ne hugely appreciate your effort. So on the battery part to me if it trips at 170 amps then it's a 170 amp battery NOT 200amps like stated. I agree with you that you shouldn't have to change values to get a perceived rating right out if the box and for "real world" applications most of (if not all) are going to be using this for an Inverter, not a water heater or some other resistive load. ❌️FAIL⛔️ A stated but maybe could be modified. I also like the larger than normal clunk from the breaker, very satisfying 😊 1 more thing, weight is a huge factor and this one tips the scales in an unfavorable direction. Most people have their batteries tucked away and for the most part, inaccessible, so you would most likely need an overhead lifting point/device to place where needed... not undo-able but definitely a huge pain in the donkey Thanks for the test and figuring this out for all of us.
I keep fallowing you since you had (15k) followers. That time i said to myself self soon he will get 1 million followers , have a good day. And thanks for your information 😊
For a system designed for whole house application using an inverter, I would oversize everything by 100%. So, if I thought I would need 200 amps continuous current, I would use, at least, a 400 amp-hour battery bank that could supply 400 amps continuously. Likewise, if I needed 12 kw continuous AC power, I would have an inverter that could supply 24kw peak output, or more, for at least 30 seconds to handle the start up of inductive loads, like air conditioning compressors. I don't want anything shutting off because of overcurrent or overheating situations. I just want it to work without my having to think about it or replace components because I pushed them too hard. For testing, though, all components should be tested to their specified limits, like you do - and, I thank you for going the extra mile in that regard! Great video!
I was literally about to ask you if EVE 3.2v 280ah wired for 48v had any negatives.. such as discharge/charge rates etc. Thanks for this content. you cover everything
I build my own batteries. I do it with the 3.2 280 AH cells and they perform great. I use a 16-cell system in 2 by 8 setup that looks just like this battery,
Most people would use at least 2 or 3 of these in parallel so maxing out at 170A each would never be an issue. x3 units would give you over 500A or 25KW output which is enough to drive any household inverter, even 3 phase up to 8KW per phase. What appeals to me is less work to make up bus bars, etc.
I have a hard time installing my 100 pound 5120 KWh batteries. This thing is a beast. It cost the same as 2 eg4. The manufacture should be truthful about what it can pull. At least put and asterisk by the 200amp indicating they tested it with resistive load.
@@D-Khaz For stationary applications 33KWh would be normal don't forget they should be cycled between 20 - 80% DOD for long cycle life so in reality you only use 60% or 20KWh of the battery with an occasional full charge to balance the cells.
I agree most people will be using an inverter. Thanks for the thorough testing. I think for that price point just get 2 batteries and run them at 150a. 200 is really a lot of stress on any cell or bms. But yea.. big bummer .
Very thorough test with the resistive load water heater. Very interesting test, I thought for sure it would fail like the first test and now I'm super curious what the difference is here from a technical perspective.
The company should pay you for your efforts as you aided them in their product development. It is not ready for the market in its current configuration. Thanks David for your tireless efforts..
Part of the problem may be that those digital ammeters only give accurate readings on pure sine waves, like what the resistance heaters give. The inverter current waveform may not be so bad, but I suspect that the "chargeverter" has a more distorted current waveform. It depends what signal measurement the battery's BMS is actually using to decide when to shut down.
I like the product and I think it's a good idea. I think the target market is for larger offgrid system where two or more in parallel will drasticly renduce current draw in real world use. If you factor in at least 80% loss in manufactures calculation you will be ahead in sizing your system. Even at 150a that's 7.8kw of continuous draw, again size appropriately. Great job!
I very much like the ~10kwh server rack form factor vs ~5kwh. While heavy, its not unworkable like a 15kwh+ battery, particularly with the inverter removed. Would be real interesting to see this form factor go to 15 cells, and perhaps less efficient cells to get the rating under 10kWh + lower weight. Just making it a touch more friendly towards NFPA855 residential ESS unit groupings and a touch more lightweight. Nice find David.
The BMS should use box-car averaging over at least 5, and preferably 10 or more samples over a period of a few seconds to filter out peak current readings. This would help reduce false tripping with an inverter attached instead of a purely resistive load.
I think your load bank is a great asset. I purchased an air cooled fan forced one at $1200 for my generator and it paid for itself the first time I used it and I've only used it 3x. Unlike yours it's not perfect in the load increments department since it goes up in 1350w increments, but I can use a heater to get it close to the load I want and it was less than half the price of a more suitable one. For occasional use it is good enough. As a diagnostic tool I can't express value of it. On top of that you can use it to blast wet stacking soot and build up from every part of your Diesel engine in your genset. You want to have seen the smoke that came out of one of mine. Essential for setting governors accurately.
Getting ready to retire so I am looking to use six of the EG4 Lifepower4 or five of the SOK 48v Great video, you are so ingenious and thorough on your testing
Cool. I've been using the EG4 for a long time. If you decide to go that way, would you mind using my affiliate link for Signature Solar? It helps out the channel quite a bit.
Its a pre built battery yes, but you are trying to use it for a unintended purpose so it is no surprise that you may have to change the settings to purpose it for your use case.
It would be very interesting to see how much pure DC current you can pull for the 100A-hr battery. My guess is the 100A BMS is slightly oversized to account for AC ripple. It would also be interesting to see the BMS tripping point with a HF inverter vs a LF inverter. Great video I appreciate all the work you put in!
Great video David! I love the resistive load tank you made. I bet that was frustrating having to make it just so you can test the battery! Though im sure you'll make use of it for future testing. Interesting to learn about the difference between the resistive load and the inverter load. I never thought there'd be a difference, but the explanation in the comments about pulsating current draw being the culprit makes sense to me.
Always fantastic videos David. Love the barrel. It’s a little unnerving that they offer that you can just change the BMS settings. Engineering these batteries takes a lot of knowledge and testing to keep the safety at the maximum. It’s great that they are pushing the standard designs and will probably mid the set up to make it work better.
I know I'm about 2 months late on the comment but hopefuly it's helpful. An inductive load is really anything with a coil, most commonly electromagnets and transformers plus capacitors. Electric motors, including DC electric motors, are electromagnets and are, therefore, inductive loads; this would include the various cooling fans in the heater, inverter and chargeverter; these will all have a significant inrush current. Inverters are also inductive loads since they create AC and use transformers to create the output voltage, though since you turned on the inverter first, this is likely not the cause of the overload issue. The chargeverter does the opposite of an inverter, using a transformer and large capacitors to lower and then smooth out the charging voltage on its output. I would not be surprised if there was a large inrush current from the chargeverter. It would be interesting to see if the issue still arose if you first turned on the inverter, followed by the chargeverter, then the fan for the heater and then the heater itself (not sure if the heater element and fan can be controlled separately). This would leave the resistive load from the heater as the last thing, reducing the likelihood of an inrush current. As an aside, there is an interesting scene in the movie Appolo 13 where NASA is trying to determine the order of turning on systems so as not to overload the battery system; they were concerned about inrush current on an entirely DC system.
great job i still ill stick with the A100 cells for physical reasons. also softer charging. as a installer and off grid for ten years for my home and my shop safer, easer to charge and better overall usable current. plus more good info. thanks for the video.
I’ve a Studer inverter with a similar problem. I can pull over 5000W from it but it overloads with a stick welder pulling less than 3000W. I’ve changed to a Victron inverter and it handles the stick welder no problem.
My battery system at home is a server rack stuffed full with a bunch of 48V 3.7Kwh pylontech batteries and a victron multiplus II + cerbo GX, I can go a few days with out power.
i would still consider the unit. A battery bank run at or near capacity is not ideal. However if the manufacturer has adjustable parameters, THEY should give you updated SAFE settings to use with an inverter load. Since most of us will feed some type of inverter, I for one would like to know the REAL maximum ratings for real world loads. Then back it off 25% or more for actual implementation. But until they provide real data this would be a no go for me. Perhaps they can provide updated software for a retest? Good work sir.
Power factor or not most people use batteries on inverters(not water heaters) most of the time so the real world load rating is ~170 amps not 200. That being said most people will also be using 2 or 3 of these batteries not just one so it shouldn't be a major issue.
Very cool stuff, thanks for the awesome videos man! Only a few years ago there used to be some videos on how to build salt water batteries in 45 gallon plastic barrels on the cheap but they all were removed of the internet completely...hmmmm?
I'm of the opinion that bigger is better, but I'm still trying to figure this stuff out. I'm stuck at trying to figure out how to size a system to my electical needs.
Look at your electric bill - it tells you what you use each month. You size according to the bill if you want to power your entire house. Size smaller if you want to power on a portion of your house, but in this case your electric bill won't be as useful.
Hi David. I enjoy your videos. At 5:15 you mentioned that capacity test should be done over five hours. I don't think I have heard you mention that before. Is that a standard? Could you, or other viewers, explain please? I assumed you hook up what loads you could scrounge and run it empty. Thanks
STC, Standard Test Conditions for a lithium battery is a 0.2C rate (5 hours). I'm not always perfect, because I'll use what I have on hand, but I aim for 5 hours every time.
Batteries are just like sports. It hits the capacity rating - 'We did it!' (just messing with you - I know somebody who always says 'We won!' or 'They lost!')
I think they should change the BMS or at least set it to a higher over current factor. The scary part of resetting the overcurrent protection once you get it would be the possibility of a failure. And would they cover that on warrantee?
Great price! When I was reviewing a standard server rack battery I also noticed it couldn't output the full 100 amps. I called the distributor and ask them about it. They mentioned that the battery needed to be at a 100% charge in order for it to perform the 100 amps. I charged it to 100% and it did do a lot better. I wonder if you had it at 100% charge if it could do the full 200 amps with your inverter connected. I love the test station!
Thanks for sharing your experience. In some of my testing I had the battery at 100%SOC. What you see in this edited video is a very small fraction of all the testing I went through. I took clips here and there to show the overview of what I went through.
I just built 4 14kw 300amp out battery banks with 8 of the battery hookup 8s1p packs... now im building one of the new 48s1p packs 43kwh into 3bank 16s 1p battery in parallel configuration and i would much rather have a few big powerwalls than lots of little batteries with lots of fault points.
Dude nice reviews!!! Please do a test review on the new EG4 powerpro battery thats said to be 14.3kwh capacity and rated to be 200amp discharge and charging😊😊
Weren't batteries supposed to be around 100$ / KW/H by now? This is still unaffordable for many unfortunately. Hopefully sodium iron batteries can help lower the costs (density may be lower but so are costs, just need a wee bit more space). Thanks for your videos' David!
Another great test video. I like that you share both the good and the bad. I think in most homes, 170 A is enough. I believe every house I have lived in had a 200 A main, and I have never had one trip due to over current. That being said, the battery should be able to do handle a continuous 200A as advertised, whether inverter loads or resistive. Great video.
Thanks for your comment. My home also has a 200A grid connection. Keep in mind, the 200A from the grid is at 240V. 200A*240V=48,000W this battery is 200A (tested 170A) at 51.2V. 200A*51.2V=10,240W
I personally went with 200 AH wall mount. They came with Anderson plugs which are just simple and clean they can mount on the floor. I haven't tested like you have, but I'm curious now too. The advertised Max CDC of my batteries is 160 A.
Well if it's rated at 200A at 48V that would give 9600W, so the current voltage was like 53V so the max current would be 180A which is very similar to what you saw
Love your videos David but I can’t justify the money for fancy batteries. I’ve been using 200 amp hr lead acid batteries 12v wired for 24v for years and haven’t had any problems or any loss of capacity at all. They charge pretty fast with 5,000 watts of solar feeding 4-60 amp charge controllers.
Lead-acid batteries won't last 1/10th of the cycles of a LiFePo. Absolutely out of question that they didn't lose any capacity after years (even just a couple) of use if subjected to any meaningful use.
I used lead acid for years, starting with making my own as a child in the 1970s, then reconditioning old starter batteries and etc. Once I tried LiFePO4 I swore off lead. The only advantage to lead is they are so robust. They will survive (as well as they survive anything) cold temperatures, hot temperatures, high loads, severe over-charge, etc. About the only thing where LiFePO4 is more robust is long periods of less than full charge which will sulfate lead-acid. The prices of deep cycle rated lead batteries have gone up so much, a large part likely due to shipping costs, that only the cheapest flooded (i.e. GC-2's) can compete with LiFePO4 on price. LiFePO4 is more comparable to high-end AGM lead batteries, but LiFePO4 is cheaper to buy, 1/10 the price if you get even half the rated cycles to 80% capacity, and works so much better in normal use. Run it down to 20% or even lower every day on a solar system and it won't matter if it doesn't get fully charged again until next summer. LiFePO4 doesn't require refilling and doesn't off-gas hydrogen sulfide and there is no sulfuric acid vapor. LiFePO4 has better charge efficiency, by 20% or more, especially at low rates of charge, which leads to much higher cycle efficiency (70% is typical for lead-acid after a few break-in cycles, compared to 90% or better for LiFePO4). LiFePO4 has effectively a perfect unity Peukert exponent, which means you always get the full capacity not only at the 20 hour discharge rate used to specify lead-acid capacity, but even at a 2 hour and often even 1 hour discharge rate. LiFePO4 has a nearly flat discharge voltage, which makes it almost impossible to tell state of charge by voltage thru most of the capacity, but it means everything runs so much better with that more stable supply. The only lead-acid batteries I use now are starting batteries and small sealed lead-acids in a computer UPS. Both of those need to supply silly high current for short periods of time, and the starter batteries have to supply those currents and charge below 0F in my climate. LiFePO4 is simply not suitable for those uses, yet.
Would 2x100ah in parallel batteries with a 100 amp discharge rating not make the 200 amp target better than this battery. Also easier to handle ans if one breaks some redundancy?
Yes. I've tested Orient Power's 100Ah battery (Jakiper PRO) and it had no problems with the 100A load. So, two in parallel would do 200A. Keep in mind, this is a 230Ah battery, so you need 2.3 of the 100Ah batteries for the same capacity.
Agree! If you are only connecting 1 of these batteries to your inverter, instead of 2 100AH rated ones, you don't have ANY power if something fails in the one...single point of failure! And, it's sooo heavy! If you've got 2, 3 or more of these then you're probably fine. Thanks David! Wondered why we hadn't heard from you in awhile.
I’d say it could be inverter specific. Some inverters may have larger caps on battery input end than others to help average current draw. Maybe try a capacitor bank by inverter? Maybe it doesn’t like the chargeverter’s transformer characteristics
i really do like the bigger unit. would reduce the amount of screens and so on. for battery bank. but when you are talking so much amperage makes me wonder if we are nearing a line to need higher DC voltage.
That one is great for someone that needs say 8000Wh, 9000Wh and doesn't want to deal with paralleling 100Ah batteries to get it. The weight is no big deal - move it into place on day one and done.
After reading some of the comments, you have been offered the RMS explanation, However DC shouldn't be an RMS function albeit a feed to an inverter with 50 or 60 hz power drain. That said it does give some light on the inverter design. Many inverters drive the IGBT such that they don't need big capacitors. Capacitors are a curse in electronic designs because they don't last long, leaving an inverter design to need servicing where the caps need to be changed. Also, transformer don't run on 50 HZ that would make them heavy huge and expensive (voltage inversion is done at about 400Khz making the transformer a 100th of a 60 Hz transformer) So again RMS calculation on the battery supply shouldn't affect battery power. You will probably find that the DC output measurement differs if it is hall effect, DC coil current metering or shut metering. I would like to know more about the BMS modules and a complete software block diagram, as this is critical to protection and the life of the battery. It seem that most of the battey suppliers have very similar BMS modules, and I wonder if they up to the job?
Maybe the problem trying to rech 200 amps using two inverters is interaction between the pulsating current draw going in and out of sync between the inverters. If you still have the growatt 12kw low frequency inverter you could try testing with that and it will handle the 10 kw of AC loads that you need to get to 200 amps DC from the battery.
Great review david. now You have a couple of spares for a diversion load to preheat water. Looking at their website for this battery they use the phrase automatic system cell balancing. The only thing I could see about that is in the block diagram discharge mosfets. And that was all I could find on it. Is it a sephlos bms? Did You hear or ask about it? Unusual to tout a feature, then say nothing about it.
The BMS uses resistors to balance the cells. It will start balancing automatically when the cells are above 3.3V, and to within 30mV. I don't know the brand of BMS.
I wish we could get the ratings for what it will be used for, an inverter. Nice testing but I still have a bad taste from the first version battery they put out that did not meet the specs and they refused to respond to a warranty claim. Thanks for the video
Great honest review David, thank you. 150 AMP load, got it! I like the capacity. Does Orient Power offer a DIY front panel kit for this unit? I have cases but from your measurements their front would fit on my cases( 16s 280AH). Thank you David
I asked them to offer this front panel as a DIY option, but it's not available as of right now. Right now you can purchase the 100A version of the front panel. I made a video on that previously, and I have an affiliate link for it.
@@DavidPozEnergy Thanks David, I love your videos. I feel like Im getting a honest review when I watch your stuff. I did call them and I can confirm they only have the 100amp unit. I needed the 200amp. I do appreciate what you do.
If you are building a big system, say for multiple cloudy days, this could help reduce complexity, in a smaller system a failure could leave you without enough capacity to eek by.
Could I use one of these connected to the solar input of my ecoflow Pro to increase capacity ? What would I need to charge it... Would I have to swap cables between the Ecoflow and the charger or is there some way to keep both connected? My concern is that the Ecoflow just draws 'solar' power whenever available (which makes sense if it's coming from the sun) and probably prioritises that over grid...whereas I'd want it the other way around. That said, my ecoflow is for emerency home backup so not in use most of the time and idle rate of discharge of LifePo4 is low AFAIUI. Still surprising that no-one makes a generic automatic switchover between grid and batteries/generator - there are only proprietary ones like the Ecoflow panel or the Generac ones for fossil generators... or am I just not looking hard enough ? Okay..that's enough rambling 🙂
You could probably set something up to work. I have never worked with the Ecoflow Pro, so I don't know the input Voltage to the MPPT charger. If they are the same Voltage range, great. Also, keep in mind that you will have to manually move the wires from one mode to the next. Another thing, the MPPT charger input might not have a current limiting circuit. If it doesn't, you would have to manually pre-charge the capacitors using a resistor.
????? David, what kind of water heater elements are you using. I'm off grid trying to avoid putting in a propane water heater. Also, I don't chave enough panels for the winter months, so I would like to avoid my inverter and still have hot water. Currently using a 5 gallon pot on the wood stove for the winter and an InstantPot in the summer. I have been using 3 24v SimplifPower batteries for the past 8-10 years. I like the Gill battery you have used. Still think I get more power out of my batteries.
I'm also really surprised that a DC to AC inverter would draw that much of a pulsating current, but I can see how it is possible. The only way to calm that down would be to increase capacitance, or design the inverter to have a power factor correction circuit which would significantly increase cost and decrease efficiency. You could also try increasing the resistance of the cables (slightly thinner or longer) to reduce the pulse current a bit. I'm keen to see a scope reading across your shunt resistor, but also note that a shunt will reduce the pulses in the same way as increasing lead resistance.
I'm a beginner when it comes to oscilloscope use. I have one, but am not sure the best placement. You are the first to comment with some indication of where to put the probes. Do you have any more information on how to set up the scope to measure this?
@@DavidPozEnergy Hi David. 2 questions: - Do you have the 500A / 50mV shunt? That will give you a voltage across the shunt of 20mV when 200A are going through the shunt. - Are you using the Hantek hand-held oscilloscope (2D42 or similar)? I bought one of those after I saw yours. I'll assume this, although if you have a different scope the settings should be the same. To set it up to see such low voltages, you may need to use 1x probe mode (10x and above are tricks to reduce noise at the expense of resolution). The Hantek scopes should come with some crocodile clip-style probes that are only 1x. Note that they will be very susceptible to noise at this level especially around the inverter with its switch mode power supply. To measure the current through the shunt with a scope, you will measure the voltage directly across the terminals. You don't need to power the smart shunt on unless you want to do a sanity check. --------------------------------------------- | + + | Battery Inverter | - - | -------------[Shunt]--------------------- | \ | Oscilloscope [+] (Centre pin of oscilloscope probe or red crocodile clip) Oscilloscope [-] (Black crocodile clip) To get my scope (after a factory default [Menu -> Page 4/5 -> Default]) I do this: - Press Channel, then press left until the yellow (CH1) goes to 10mV. - Change Coupling to DC (F3 button). This is very important You should now be able to get an idea of the current trend. Each of the horizontal dotted lines on the screen correspond to 10mV across the shunt (100A through the shunt). If you want to capture the waveform, you can set up triggering: - Press the Trig button and set Mode to Normal. This will only update the screen when the threshold is crossed. - Adjust the Trigger threshold (right side marker) upwards until the screen just stops changing using the up and down arrows. Any time there is now current going through the shunt, the voltage should increase enough to trigger it. Once you're set up, you can change the trigger mode to Single, meaning it will only trigger once. To reset the trigger, press the Play/Pause button on the bottom right. If you're struggling, comment again and I'll try to set up a shunt on my batteries and do a similar experiment.
How do you know when your battery pack has the internal precharge resistor other than the giant spark you might get if there is not one installed? Also, do you need that same resistor when connecting your battery pack to the inverter? Also, why would your test using inductive load and 100 map battery pack function just fine? Sounds like the inductive load on that BMS is the problem on the 200 amp battery.
Just a WAG, but is it possible the 100A BMS from the other battery would handle more on a resistive load? Perhaps that BMS would do 110A DC, that seems to be the "span" for failure with this one.
It's not the capacitive load that's the problem, rather the opposite. The caps in the inverter are not big enough to smooth out the pulsating current the inverter draws from the battery. I am curious what would happen if you put a couple of really big caps in parallel with the DC side of the inverter and redo the test. My prediction would be that it would take you closer to the rated 200 amps.
@@DavidPozEnergy as a rule of thumb a smoothing capacitor should be 1000uF per amp. But that rule is for 50//60 Hz mains frequency. Since you are dealing with a high frequency switching inverter, your mileage may vary. I’d start with 100.000uF and then redo the test to check if it makes any difference at all. If it does, but your still can’t draw the full power, you can increase the capacitor size (or put more caps in parallel).bigger is better. Before you hook them up, charge them via a resistor. You could use the heater you built for that. Unless your bms has a pre charge function.
Remove the bms and replace it with 230 amp one but the pulse from the switching frequency does return to the bms pluse so two different frequency crashing together does cause failure ass and engineer I ran into this issue with switching mode power supply i had to use a big low pass filter to stop the frequency from returning to the ic so the two switch mode supply work great
David, Are you going to make a video for the 2nd Schneider Inverter and charge controller? I a really interested in that. Thanks for your testing and effort.
I am with you, if it says 200amp... it should do 200amps, irrespective to what sort of load. If it did 195, I probably wouldn't quibble, 10%+ lower than spec seems too much
You really went the extra mile building the water heater tank. Appreciate your efforts 👌
At 1st glance it looked like Frankenstein's monster, or a bomb from a Hollywood action movie!🤣
At 10:32 the data sheet shows 230A for 5 seconds will trip off the BMS. That usually means it trips considerably faster as you exceed that 230A. An inverter that states 200A load is likely stating 200A RMS or "RootMeanSquart". To arrive at the sinusoidal peak value of an RMS value you divide the RMS value by the square root of 2 or 0.707. From this we can see that the when David hit 170A the peaks being drawn from the battery could be upto 170A / 0.707 = 240A That's causing an instantaneous trip. The BMS is thinking a shorting event is happening.
always awesome seeing a fellow electrical engineer in the wild 👌
Are you saying the inverter varying the DC current draw from the battery in a way that the BMS is reporting a RMS current on the screen, but it's using peak current draw for over-current protection?
@@jawkeye Yes, the BMS is looking for peak current draw, not RMS.
Good testing. I appreciate that you went to such a great effort to test the 200 amp discharge factor. I completely agree that this should be rated as people primarily use it which is with an inverter not just resistive loads. The extra mile you went to test this is much appreciated
To answer the question you proposed at the end of the video ... since most people would be getting such a battery to use, not test, most people will only move the battery once while installing it, so I see no disadvantage to it being heavy ... after all, refrigerators, washers and other appliances are just as heavy. We put them in place and use them without needing to move them again until we replace them. The same would be the case with such a battery ... most people will put it in place and use it until it dies.
Thank you!
100% I agree with you it should do 200 A to an inverter, your resistive load bank had me on the floor laughing. I love it awesome build
Thanks.
AC is not continuos , 60 times a second it's crossing 0 so no current is flowing so then in the DC side for deliver energy to the inverter there are spikes more than 200amps but without an oscilloscope u can't see
I really like the roughly 5 kWh storage size. The weight and dimensions are easier to mess around with. If someone wanted to install say 100+ kWh worth of batteries then the 10+ kWh modules do make sense. But I think for most people who are installing just one or two half-racks worth of batteries (up to around 60 kWh), then the 5 kWh form factor is better.
There are other reasons to go with the 5 kWh form factor. Big home systems need to reliably pull or push several hundred amps.. call it 300 amps. You never want to do that from just one or two battery packs where a single BMS failure or drop-out can implode the whole system. That's a lot of momentum to arrest. If a BMS drops out while one is charging at 300 amps it can cause a fairly massive voltage surge on the battery bus.
To solve this, one really wants a bunch of independent batteries, each with their own BMS, connected in parallel. With 6 x 100Ah batteries, pushing and pulling 300A will be extremely reliable even in the face of a battery failure. But doing the same thing with 2 x 300Ah batteries is not.
A second reason to stick with the smaller 5 kWh form factor is battery density and fire. You can (with a pull-rope) man handle a 5 kWh pack out of a rack and out of the garage if something goes wrong. You can't do that with a 10 kWh pack unless the whole rack is on rollers.
And the third reason to stick with, in particular, the smaller form factor used by 5 kWh packs is that as battery density improves, those packs could easily become 10 kWh 5 years from now. Still manageable in the rack. But the 10+ kWh form factor becoming 20 kWh 5 years from now might not be.
That's my take.
-Matt
7.5 comes out cheapest
The weight is a real issue for me. A 5 kWh battery is ideal.
Thanks for doing the extra work on the resistive load!
Your welcome.
David, really enjoy your extraordinarily detailed and thorough reviews. WOW you built a water heater tank....no small effort and expense.
I have 9.5KW panels and 42 KW LiFePO4...so I'm not running a tiny system. My wife loves to burn watts.
You ask, is bigger better...no way.
In regard to this battery...you are young and have much energy and I am in off grid off road in the mountains and in my 70's...this battery size and weight is just plain too heavy and impractical for me. When I previewed this video, I delayed even watching since I would never consider such a heavy battery for this reason. But as always, good job on your review. I definitely recommend that all watcher subscribe.
Thank you.
Top marks for building that resistive load, real dedication!
One added small advantage of the larger capacity/form factor is there are fewer cables and terminal connections required for the same storage capacity. One Victron Lynx Power in (1000 A rated busbar) can connect four of these for 47 kWh of storage. You'd need three such busbars to achieve similar capacity (9 x 100 Ah units), or make you own with 9 terminal connections and all the extra cable and lugs.
Good point, thanks.
The BMS is too sensitive for pulsating amperage. The inverter draws a pulsating DC when making AC of it. It trips on the peak amp not the average current. If you had an oscilloscope you could visualize it. An improved algorithm in the BMS would take care of it or some large capacitors on the battery terminals. If you only used Orient Power inverters and it would trip below rated amps the total fault lies with them.
Thanks. I'll try using my scope to pick it up.
Surely most people will be using this battery with an inverter, so why do they say max output 200 amps when this is not the case. Perhaps they should say max output is 150 amps.
@@trickydicky6788 max output is (most likely) 200A, just like we saw on the video. And like written above, we cannot see the actual current values as the built-in screen refreshes the value maybe once per second, way too slow to catch the actual min/max values which the internal display just averages out.
@@robertyoung. The inverter is basically making AC power output in "pulses" so it would make sense that the DC amperage coming into the inverter would be coming in pulses as well unless it has some big capacitors to smooth it out.
@@DavidPozEnergyand do put on a few Farads on the terminals.
I own Yosma rack batteries rated for 150 but my load is only 100+A from a 5kW inverter. 3 in parallel and the bunch are happy.
I think the issue with this battery is not continuous load, but burst load.
Most devices are able to handle 150% - 200% of its continuous load as burst load over a few seconds.
Most modern electronics have a very specific way of drawing power where they draw it in short bursts.
So what you see as 170A continuous might be a 200A for 30ms then 0A for 5ms, then 200A for 30ms, then 0A for 5ms and so on.
You could try to measure that with an oscilloscope.
If your device (inverter or in this case a battery) can handle short bursts of 150% up to 1 second, then those devices will be unaffected.
But if it get OCP after just a few milliseconds, then you will end up with the effect you see in the video.
I think this lack of correct burst handling might be a big problem, since most modern devices are drawing power this way,
and during normal work those batteries might have problems with OCP triggering in very little loads.
Thank you for all the effort you went to on this one David! I really like this battery - it makes sense to have larger cells to reduce the total amount of batteries required and therefore the BMS's as well. It would be nice if it was able to supply the full 200 amps, however, personally I would prefer it trip than smoke...
We all have a perfect house and expect all our stuff running smoothly. Amp is amp. Watt is watt. DC is DC. I could go on and on. But how much did you spend on that new water 💦 heater. I do like the fact that you went all in on this test and this was as basic as you can imagine. 😊
How much did I spend to make the resistive load bank? Not sure. I had some of the items already. If you duplicated the build it would probably be about $1,000.
Thanks for the efforts.
@@DavidPozEnergyholy crap a $1000 bucks! And a week extra of your time.... you sure did go all in and I for 0ne hugely appreciate your effort. So on the battery part to me if it trips at 170 amps then it's a 170 amp battery NOT 200amps like stated. I agree with you that you shouldn't have to change values to get a perceived rating right out if the box and for "real world" applications most of (if not all) are going to be using this for an Inverter, not a water heater or some other resistive load. ❌️FAIL⛔️ A stated but maybe could be modified. I also like the larger than normal clunk from the breaker, very satisfying 😊
1 more thing, weight is a huge factor and this one tips the scales in an unfavorable direction. Most people have their batteries tucked away and for the most part, inaccessible, so you would most likely need an overhead lifting point/device to place where needed... not undo-able but definitely a huge pain in the donkey
Thanks for the test and figuring this out for all of us.
@theddeustroyer7632 Thanks for the comment. I'm glad the effort is appreciated.
I keep fallowing you since you had (15k) followers. That time i said to myself self soon he will get 1 million followers , have a good day. And thanks for your information 😊
Thank you for sticking with me so long.
Dude your load bank in the water was great!!! 🤘🏻😎🤘🏻
Thank you.
For a system designed for whole house application using an inverter, I would oversize everything by 100%. So, if I thought I would need 200 amps continuous current, I would use, at least, a 400 amp-hour battery bank that could supply 400 amps continuously.
Likewise, if I needed 12 kw continuous AC power, I would have an inverter that could supply 24kw peak output, or more, for at least 30 seconds to handle the start up of inductive loads, like air conditioning compressors. I don't want anything shutting off because of overcurrent or overheating situations. I just want it to work without my having to think about it or replace components because I pushed them too hard.
For testing, though, all components should be tested to their specified limits, like you do - and, I thank you for going the extra mile in that regard!
Great video!
Your welcome, thanks for watching and your comment.
I was literally about to ask you if EVE 3.2v 280ah wired for 48v had any negatives.. such as discharge/charge rates etc. Thanks for this content. you cover everything
Thanks David, a bit of work went it to that one
Im just here to comment on that SWEET load bank! Great Job!💥
Thanks Joe.
I build my own batteries. I do it with the 3.2 280 AH cells and they perform great. I use a 16-cell system in 2 by 8 setup that looks just like this battery,
Cool. I also have a few videos on my channel building my own batteries.
Most people would use at least 2 or 3 of these in parallel so maxing out at 170A each would never be an issue. x3 units would give you over 500A or 25KW output which is enough to drive any household inverter, even 3 phase up to 8KW per phase. What appeals to me is less work to make up bus bars, etc.
Thanks. I agree that would be the best way to use these.
I have a hard time installing my 100 pound 5120 KWh batteries. This thing is a beast. It cost the same as 2 eg4. The manufacture should be truthful about what it can pull. At least put and asterisk by the 200amp indicating they tested it with resistive load.
Are *most people* really gettting 33kWh or spending 9k on DIY batteries? I’d think this would be less than most.
@@D-Khaz For stationary applications 33KWh would be normal don't forget they should be cycled between 20 - 80% DOD for long cycle life so in reality you only use 60% or 20KWh of the battery with an occasional full charge to balance the cells.
I agree most people will be using an inverter. Thanks for the thorough testing. I think for that price point just get 2 batteries and run them at 150a. 200 is really a lot of stress on any cell or bms. But yea.. big bummer .
Very thorough test with the resistive load water heater. Very interesting test, I thought for sure it would fail like the first test and now I'm super curious what the difference is here from a technical perspective.
So, I'm not the only one surprised by the results!. Thanks, now I don't feel so bad. LOL
Resistive load is easier basically
The company should pay you for your efforts as you aided them in their product development. It is not ready for the market in its current configuration. Thanks David for your tireless efforts..
That would be nice.
It's almost ready for market. All they need to do is change everywhere they write 200 amps , change it to 150 amps, problem solved.
Congrats on being first to show a bigger than 100AH 51v rack pack. Nice!
Just saw the resistive load bank @15:20. Nice work.
Part of the problem may be that those digital ammeters only give accurate readings on pure sine waves, like what the resistance heaters give. The inverter current waveform may not be so bad, but I suspect that the "chargeverter" has a more distorted current waveform. It depends what signal measurement the battery's BMS is actually using to decide when to shut down.
Would prefer inductive loads used for tests ie well pumps etc.
Great review mate I think the water take jig will be a great asset for the future if not a great coffee pot🇦🇺👌
I like the product and I think it's a good idea. I think the target market is for larger offgrid system where two or more in parallel will drasticly renduce current draw in real world use. If you factor in at least 80% loss in manufactures calculation you will be ahead in sizing your system. Even at 150a that's 7.8kw of continuous draw, again size appropriately. Great job!
I very much like the ~10kwh server rack form factor vs ~5kwh. While heavy, its not unworkable like a 15kwh+ battery, particularly with the inverter removed. Would be real interesting to see this form factor go to 15 cells, and perhaps less efficient cells to get the rating under 10kWh + lower weight. Just making it a touch more friendly towards NFPA855 residential ESS unit groupings and a touch more lightweight. Nice find David.
The BMS should use box-car averaging over at least 5, and preferably 10 or more samples over a period of a few seconds to filter out peak current readings. This would help reduce false tripping with an inverter attached instead of a purely resistive load.
I think your load bank is a great asset.
I purchased an air cooled fan forced one at $1200 for my generator and it paid for itself the first time I used it and I've only used it 3x.
Unlike yours it's not perfect in the load increments department since it goes up in 1350w increments, but I can use a heater to get it close to the load I want and it was less than half the price of a more suitable one. For occasional use it is good enough.
As a diagnostic tool I can't express value of it. On top of that you can use it to blast wet stacking soot and build up from every part of your Diesel engine in your genset. You want to have seen the smoke that came out of one of mine.
Essential for setting governors accurately.
As usual you are the best when it comes to equipment review. THX
Your welcome, and I appreciate the comment.
thanks for bringing this forward. impressive. thanks for sharing
Beautiful job on the water tank :)
Thank you.
I like the size since I could have a 6kw inverter with just a single battery. This would be perfect for all my 120v loads in the house as a backup.
Getting ready to retire so I am looking to use six of the EG4 Lifepower4 or five of the SOK 48v Great video, you are so ingenious and thorough on your testing
Cool. I've been using the EG4 for a long time. If you decide to go that way, would you mind using my affiliate link for Signature Solar? It helps out the channel quite a bit.
Its a pre built battery yes, but you are trying to use it for a unintended purpose so it is no surprise that you may have to change the settings to purpose it for your use case.
Interesting there must be some fluctuation in current draw when using an inverter to make the load at the power factor they use usually .9 I believe.
Yeah, something is happening. Thanks for watching to the end, I appreciate it.
lol always the end is the best part 200 amp x 0.9 = 180 amps but that may be just a coincidence @@DavidPozEnergy
Really nice - you really do interesting vids and turn up really interesting details! Thank you sir!!!
It would be very interesting to see how much pure DC current you can pull for the 100A-hr battery. My guess is the 100A BMS is slightly oversized to account for AC ripple.
It would also be interesting to see the BMS tripping point with a HF inverter vs a LF inverter.
Great video I appreciate all the work you put in!
Not a deal breaker, 150A per unit. For my house I'd need 4 and that equals more amps than I'd ever pull. It's the cheap capacity that's wanted.
Great video David! I love the resistive load tank you made. I bet that was frustrating having to make it just so you can test the battery! Though im sure you'll make use of it for future testing. Interesting to learn about the difference between the resistive load and the inverter load. I never thought there'd be a difference, but the explanation in the comments about pulsating current draw being the culprit makes sense to me.
So, I'm not the only one surprised by the results. Thanks.
This is great. I needed a new powerbank. Now just got to convince airport security that the K means nothing and its only 11.8WH
Always fantastic videos David. Love the barrel. It’s a little unnerving that they offer that you can just change the BMS settings. Engineering these batteries takes a lot of knowledge and testing to keep the safety at the maximum. It’s great that they are pushing the standard designs and will probably mid the set up to make it work better.
I know I'm about 2 months late on the comment but hopefuly it's helpful. An inductive load is really anything with a coil, most commonly electromagnets and transformers plus capacitors. Electric motors, including DC electric motors, are electromagnets and are, therefore, inductive loads; this would include the various cooling fans in the heater, inverter and chargeverter; these will all have a significant inrush current. Inverters are also inductive loads since they create AC and use transformers to create the output voltage, though since you turned on the inverter first, this is likely not the cause of the overload issue. The chargeverter does the opposite of an inverter, using a transformer and large capacitors to lower and then smooth out the charging voltage on its output. I would not be surprised if there was a large inrush current from the chargeverter. It would be interesting to see if the issue still arose if you first turned on the inverter, followed by the chargeverter, then the fan for the heater and then the heater itself (not sure if the heater element and fan can be controlled separately). This would leave the resistive load from the heater as the last thing, reducing the likelihood of an inrush current. As an aside, there is an interesting scene in the movie Appolo 13 where NASA is trying to determine the order of turning on systems so as not to overload the battery system; they were concerned about inrush current on an entirely DC system.
Thanks. I loved that scene in the movie too.
great job i still ill stick with the A100 cells for physical reasons. also softer charging. as a installer and off grid for ten years for my home and my shop safer, easer to charge and better overall usable current. plus more good info. thanks for the video.
I’ve a Studer inverter with a similar problem. I can pull over 5000W from it but it overloads with a stick welder pulling less than 3000W. I’ve changed to a Victron inverter and it handles the stick welder no problem.
My battery system at home is a server rack stuffed full with a bunch of 48V 3.7Kwh pylontech batteries and a victron multiplus II + cerbo GX, I can go a few days with out power.
Wow! That thing is a beast!
Both, the battery and your super, duper water heater!
i would still consider the unit. A battery bank run at or near capacity is not ideal.
However if the manufacturer has adjustable parameters, THEY should give you updated SAFE settings to use with an inverter load.
Since most of us will feed some type of inverter, I for one would like to know the REAL maximum ratings for real world loads. Then back it off 25% or more for actual implementation.
But until they provide real data this would be a no go for me. Perhaps they can provide updated software for a retest?
Good work sir.
Power factor or not most people use batteries on inverters(not water heaters) most of the time so the real world load rating is ~170 amps not 200. That being said most people will also be using 2 or 3 of these batteries not just one so it shouldn't be a major issue.
Thanks for your comment, and we will catch the feedback from all clients, and make it easier and perfect to work as wanted to be.
Very cool stuff, thanks for the awesome videos man!
Only a few years ago there used to be some videos on how to build salt water batteries in 45 gallon plastic barrels on the cheap but they all were removed of the internet completely...hmmmm?
Probably because they never worked
Thanks for the REVIEW ...,
COOP ...
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
I'm of the opinion that bigger is better, but I'm still trying to figure this stuff out. I'm stuck at trying to figure out how to size a system to my electical needs.
Look at your electric bill - it tells you what you use each month. You size according to the bill if you want to power your entire house. Size smaller if you want to power on a portion of your house, but in this case your electric bill won't be as useful.
Hi David. I enjoy your videos. At 5:15 you mentioned that capacity test should be done over five hours. I don't think I have heard you mention that before. Is that a standard? Could you, or other viewers, explain please? I assumed you hook up what loads you could scrounge and run it empty. Thanks
STC, Standard Test Conditions for a lithium battery is a 0.2C rate (5 hours). I'm not always perfect, because I'll use what I have on hand, but I aim for 5 hours every time.
Thank you!@@DavidPozEnergy
Batteries are just like sports. It hits the capacity rating - 'We did it!' (just messing with you - I know somebody who always says 'We won!' or 'They lost!')
I think they should change the BMS or at least set it to a higher over current factor. The scary part of resetting the overcurrent protection once you get it would be the possibility of a failure. And would they cover that on warrantee?
Great price! When I was reviewing a standard server rack battery I also noticed it couldn't output the full 100 amps. I called the distributor and ask them about it. They mentioned that the battery needed to be at a 100% charge in order for it to perform the 100 amps. I charged it to 100% and it did do a lot better. I wonder if you had it at 100% charge if it could do the full 200 amps with your inverter connected. I love the test station!
Thanks for sharing your experience.
In some of my testing I had the battery at 100%SOC. What you see in this edited video is a very small fraction of all the testing I went through. I took clips here and there to show the overview of what I went through.
@@DavidPozEnergy Cool. Good review!
I just built 4 14kw 300amp out battery banks with 8 of the battery hookup 8s1p packs... now im building one of the new 48s1p packs 43kwh into 3bank 16s 1p battery in parallel configuration and i would much rather have a few big powerwalls than lots of little batteries with lots of fault points.
Dude nice reviews!!! Please do a test review on the new EG4 powerpro battery thats said to be 14.3kwh capacity and rated to be 200amp discharge and charging😊😊
Weren't batteries supposed to be around 100$ / KW/H by now? This is still unaffordable for many unfortunately. Hopefully sodium iron batteries can help lower the costs (density may be lower but so are costs, just need a wee bit more space). Thanks for your videos' David!
I think that was production cost not consumer price.
Another great test video. I like that you share both the good and the bad. I think in most homes, 170 A is enough. I believe every house I have lived in had a 200 A main, and I have never had one trip due to over current. That being said, the battery should be able to do handle a continuous 200A as advertised, whether inverter loads or resistive. Great video.
Thanks for your comment. My home also has a 200A grid connection. Keep in mind, the 200A from the grid is at 240V. 200A*240V=48,000W
this battery is 200A (tested 170A) at 51.2V. 200A*51.2V=10,240W
3:25 "ka-chunk" 😂😂 satisfying indeed
I personally went with 200 AH wall mount. They came with Anderson plugs which are just simple and clean they can mount on the floor. I haven't tested like you have, but I'm curious now too. The advertised Max CDC of my batteries is 160 A.
Lots of great options on the market.
I think the settings should be set to take 200Amps continuously for a Inverter, because that it what it is designed for isn't it?
Well if it's rated at 200A at 48V that would give 9600W, so the current voltage was like 53V so the max current would be 180A which is very similar to what you saw
Love your videos David but I can’t justify the money for fancy batteries. I’ve been using 200 amp hr lead acid batteries 12v wired for 24v for years and haven’t had any problems or any loss of capacity at all. They charge pretty fast with 5,000 watts of solar feeding 4-60 amp charge controllers.
Using what you have is great. I'm glad to hear it's working for you.
Lead-acid batteries won't last 1/10th of the cycles of a LiFePo. Absolutely out of question that they didn't lose any capacity after years (even just a couple) of use if subjected to any meaningful use.
I used lead acid for years, starting with making my own as a child in the 1970s, then reconditioning old starter batteries and etc. Once I tried LiFePO4 I swore off lead. The only advantage to lead is they are so robust. They will survive (as well as they survive anything) cold temperatures, hot temperatures, high loads, severe over-charge, etc. About the only thing where LiFePO4 is more robust is long periods of less than full charge which will sulfate lead-acid.
The prices of deep cycle rated lead batteries have gone up so much, a large part likely due to shipping costs, that only the cheapest flooded (i.e. GC-2's) can compete with LiFePO4 on price. LiFePO4 is more comparable to high-end AGM lead batteries, but LiFePO4 is cheaper to buy, 1/10 the price if you get even half the rated cycles to 80% capacity, and works so much better in normal use. Run it down to 20% or even lower every day on a solar system and it won't matter if it doesn't get fully charged again until next summer. LiFePO4 doesn't require refilling and doesn't off-gas hydrogen sulfide and there is no sulfuric acid vapor. LiFePO4 has better charge efficiency, by 20% or more, especially at low rates of charge, which leads to much higher cycle efficiency (70% is typical for lead-acid after a few break-in cycles, compared to 90% or better for LiFePO4). LiFePO4 has effectively a perfect unity Peukert exponent, which means you always get the full capacity not only at the 20 hour discharge rate used to specify lead-acid capacity, but even at a 2 hour and often even 1 hour discharge rate. LiFePO4 has a nearly flat discharge voltage, which makes it almost impossible to tell state of charge by voltage thru most of the capacity, but it means everything runs so much better with that more stable supply.
The only lead-acid batteries I use now are starting batteries and small sealed lead-acids in a computer UPS. Both of those need to supply silly high current for short periods of time, and the starter batteries have to supply those currents and charge below 0F in my climate. LiFePO4 is simply not suitable for those uses, yet.
Would 2x100ah in parallel batteries with a 100 amp discharge rating not make the 200 amp target better than this battery. Also easier to handle ans if one breaks some redundancy?
Yes. I've tested Orient Power's 100Ah battery (Jakiper PRO) and it had no problems with the 100A load. So, two in parallel would do 200A. Keep in mind, this is a 230Ah battery, so you need 2.3 of the 100Ah batteries for the same capacity.
As is, the only selling point would be if it’s a good percentage cheaper than two 100Ah batteries.
Agree! If you are only connecting 1 of these batteries to your inverter, instead of 2 100AH rated ones, you don't have ANY power if something fails in the one...single point of failure! And, it's sooo heavy!
If you've got 2, 3 or more of these then you're probably fine. Thanks David! Wondered why we hadn't heard from you in awhile.
@580guru Yeah, I spent a lot more time than I should have testing this battery. I wanted to be as thorough as possible.
@@DavidPozEnergy Building that water heater was a major project, but Id guess you have plans for using it later !?
Awesome video.
I already build a 280Ah one with cells i get on Alley express, i also get the case on alley express and come with the bms. Mines extremely heavy.
Who would pull resistive loads directly off the battery bank? The main use case has to be with inverters.
I agree, I run my system with inverters.
I’d say it could be inverter specific. Some inverters may have larger caps on battery input end than others to help average current draw. Maybe try a capacitor bank by inverter? Maybe it doesn’t like the chargeverter’s transformer characteristics
i really do like the bigger unit. would reduce the amount of screens and so on. for battery bank. but when you are talking so much amperage makes me wonder if we are nearing a line to need higher DC voltage.
That one is great for someone that needs say 8000Wh, 9000Wh and doesn't want to deal with paralleling 100Ah batteries to get it. The weight is no big deal - move it into place on day one and done.
As is, the only selling point would be if it’s a good amount cheaper than two 100Ah batteries, cause it didn’t do what 2x100 would.
Can you use this unit as an expansion battery for solar generators to increase running times? If you do i would love to see a video. Thanks.
I calculated the peak amperage the inverter was drawing at the 170 trip point and it would have been 285 amps peak which can be seen with a scope.
After reading some of the comments, you have been offered the RMS explanation, However DC shouldn't be an RMS function albeit a feed to an inverter with 50 or 60 hz power drain. That said it does give some light on the inverter design. Many inverters drive the IGBT such that they don't need big capacitors. Capacitors are a curse in electronic designs because they don't last long, leaving an inverter design to need servicing where the caps need to be changed. Also, transformer don't run on 50 HZ that would make them heavy huge and expensive (voltage inversion is done at about 400Khz making the transformer a 100th of a 60 Hz transformer) So again RMS calculation on the battery supply shouldn't affect battery power. You will probably find that the DC output measurement differs if it is hall effect, DC coil current metering or shut metering.
I would like to know more about the BMS modules and a complete software block diagram, as this is critical to protection and the life of the battery. It seem that most of the battey suppliers have very similar BMS modules, and I wonder if they up to the job?
woule like to share the BMS information.
Maybe the problem trying to rech 200 amps using two inverters is interaction between the pulsating current draw going in and out of sync between the inverters. If you still have the growatt 12kw low frequency inverter you could try testing with that and it will handle the 10 kw of AC loads that you need to get to 200 amps DC from the battery.
I also tried pulling 200A with one Schneider inverter and got the same result (the battery shut down at 170A)
Great review david. now You have a couple of spares for a diversion load to preheat water. Looking at their website for this battery they use the phrase automatic system cell balancing. The only thing I could see about that is in the block diagram discharge mosfets. And that was all I could find on it. Is it a sephlos bms? Did You hear or ask about it? Unusual to tout a feature, then say nothing about it.
The BMS uses resistors to balance the cells. It will start balancing automatically when the cells are above 3.3V, and to within 30mV. I don't know the brand of BMS.
I wish we could get the ratings for what it will be used for, an inverter. Nice testing but I still have a bad taste from the first version battery they put out that did not meet the specs and they refused to respond to a warranty claim. Thanks for the video
Your still, I mean resistive load bank was above and beyond. :)
I like that pack and may work for me, would like a little more out of it as my inverter is 6kw and only leaves 1.5k of in rush capability.
Even with your affiliate discount, they are more money per kWh than the BF pricing on 100 amp hour from signature Solar
Great honest review David, thank you. 150 AMP load, got it! I like the capacity. Does Orient Power offer a DIY front panel kit for this unit? I have cases but from your measurements their front would fit on my cases( 16s 280AH). Thank you David
I asked them to offer this front panel as a DIY option, but it's not available as of right now. Right now you can purchase the 100A version of the front panel. I made a video on that previously, and I have an affiliate link for it.
@@DavidPozEnergy Thanks David, I love your videos. I feel like Im getting a honest review when I watch your stuff. I did call them and I can confirm they only have the 100amp unit. I needed the 200amp. I do appreciate what you do.
Hi David, Have a think about VA compared to Watts. The W=A*V calculations only work if the power factor of the load is 1 (unity).
If you are building a big system, say for multiple cloudy days, this could help reduce complexity, in a smaller system a failure could leave you without enough capacity to eek by.
Could I use one of these connected to the solar input of my ecoflow Pro to increase capacity ? What would I need to charge it... Would I have to swap cables between the Ecoflow and the charger or is there some way to keep both connected? My concern is that the Ecoflow just draws 'solar' power whenever available (which makes sense if it's coming from the sun) and probably prioritises that over grid...whereas I'd want it the other way around. That said, my ecoflow is for emerency home backup so not in use most of the time and idle rate of discharge of LifePo4 is low AFAIUI.
Still surprising that no-one makes a generic automatic switchover between grid and batteries/generator - there are only proprietary ones like the Ecoflow panel or the Generac ones for fossil generators... or am I just not looking hard enough ? Okay..that's enough rambling 🙂
You could probably set something up to work. I have never worked with the Ecoflow Pro, so I don't know the input Voltage to the MPPT charger. If they are the same Voltage range, great. Also, keep in mind that you will have to manually move the wires from one mode to the next.
Another thing, the MPPT charger input might not have a current limiting circuit. If it doesn't, you would have to manually pre-charge the capacitors using a resistor.
@@DavidPozEnergy thank you!
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David, what kind of water heater elements are you using. I'm off grid trying to avoid putting in a propane water heater. Also, I don't chave enough panels for the winter months, so I would like to avoid my inverter and still have hot water. Currently using a 5 gallon pot on the wood stove for the winter and an InstantPot in the summer.
I have been using 3 24v SimplifPower batteries for the past 8-10 years. I like the Gill battery you have used. Still think I get more power out of my batteries.
I linked to the water heater element in the description.
Those simplifpower batteries are great.
I'm also really surprised that a DC to AC inverter would draw that much of a pulsating current, but I can see how it is possible. The only way to calm that down would be to increase capacitance, or design the inverter to have a power factor correction circuit which would significantly increase cost and decrease efficiency. You could also try increasing the resistance of the cables (slightly thinner or longer) to reduce the pulse current a bit.
I'm keen to see a scope reading across your shunt resistor, but also note that a shunt will reduce the pulses in the same way as increasing lead resistance.
I'm a beginner when it comes to oscilloscope use. I have one, but am not sure the best placement. You are the first to comment with some indication of where to put the probes. Do you have any more information on how to set up the scope to measure this?
@@DavidPozEnergy Hi David.
2 questions:
- Do you have the 500A / 50mV shunt? That will give you a voltage across the shunt of 20mV when 200A are going through the shunt.
- Are you using the Hantek hand-held oscilloscope (2D42 or similar)? I bought one of those after I saw yours. I'll assume this, although if you have a different scope the settings should be the same.
To set it up to see such low voltages, you may need to use 1x probe mode (10x and above are tricks to reduce noise at the expense of resolution). The Hantek scopes should come with some crocodile clip-style probes that are only 1x. Note that they will be very susceptible to noise at this level especially around the inverter with its switch mode power supply.
To measure the current through the shunt with a scope, you will measure the voltage directly across the terminals. You don't need to power the smart shunt on unless you want to do a sanity check.
---------------------------------------------
| + + |
Battery Inverter
| - - |
-------------[Shunt]---------------------
| \
| Oscilloscope [+] (Centre pin of oscilloscope probe or red crocodile clip)
Oscilloscope [-] (Black crocodile clip)
To get my scope (after a factory default [Menu -> Page 4/5 -> Default]) I do this:
- Press Channel, then press left until the yellow (CH1) goes to 10mV.
- Change Coupling to DC (F3 button). This is very important
You should now be able to get an idea of the current trend. Each of the horizontal dotted lines on the screen correspond to 10mV across the shunt (100A through the shunt).
If you want to capture the waveform, you can set up triggering:
- Press the Trig button and set Mode to Normal. This will only update the screen when the threshold is crossed.
- Adjust the Trigger threshold (right side marker) upwards until the screen just stops changing using the up and down arrows. Any time there is now current going through the shunt, the voltage should increase enough to trigger it.
Once you're set up, you can change the trigger mode to Single, meaning it will only trigger once. To reset the trigger, press the Play/Pause button on the bottom right.
If you're struggling, comment again and I'll try to set up a shunt on my batteries and do a similar experiment.
How do you know when your battery pack has the internal precharge resistor other than the giant spark you might get if there is not one installed? Also, do you need that same resistor when connecting your battery pack to the inverter?
Also, why would your test using inductive load and 100 map battery pack function
just fine? Sounds like the inductive load on that BMS is the problem on the 200 amp battery.
Just a WAG, but is it possible the 100A BMS from the other battery would handle more on a resistive load? Perhaps that BMS would do 110A DC, that seems to be the "span" for failure with this one.
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It's not the capacitive load that's the problem, rather the opposite. The caps in the inverter are not big enough to smooth out the pulsating current the inverter draws from the battery. I am curious what would happen if you put a couple of really big caps in parallel with the DC side of the inverter and redo the test. My prediction would be that it would take you closer to the rated 200 amps.
What size are we talking about? I'm not an EE, so if you know how many and what ratings, that would be helpful.
@@DavidPozEnergy as a rule of thumb a smoothing capacitor should be 1000uF per amp. But that rule is for 50//60 Hz mains frequency. Since you are dealing with a high frequency switching inverter, your mileage may vary. I’d start with 100.000uF and then redo the test to check if it makes any difference at all. If it does, but your still can’t draw the full power, you can increase the capacitor size (or put more caps in parallel).bigger is better. Before you hook them up, charge them via a resistor. You could use the heater you built for that. Unless your bms has a pre charge function.
Thank you.
Remove the bms and replace it with 230 amp one but the pulse from the switching frequency does return to the bms pluse so two different frequency crashing together does cause failure ass and engineer I ran into this issue with switching mode power supply i had to use a big low pass filter to stop the frequency from returning to the ic so the two switch mode supply work great
David, Are you going to make a video for the 2nd Schneider Inverter and charge controller? I a really interested in that.
Thanks for your testing and effort.
Yes, I plan to make a video once the wiring in done. As of now, the second inverter is on the wall, but not wired.
I am with you, if it says 200amp... it should do 200amps, irrespective to what sort of load. If it did 195, I probably wouldn't quibble, 10%+ lower than spec seems too much
They know what we’re buying the batteries for