This is superior content; far better than 90% of YT author pundits. Pithy, cogent, and pitched at an 'intelligent' level which means that someone who knows the basics will also come away with something useful to think about. Thanks so much; you should have many more subs.
I chuckled at my self when you mentioned starting too early. As I've heard this advice before, I was very determined to not do so, to the point where I actually was starting my scene really late, like right before crisis and anyone who read it was instantly lost. So not starting too early is definitely good advice, but don't do what I did and obsess over it to the point you start to late. (I know you can start a scene in medias res, but as that was not my intention, nor do I feel it would be best for the scene)
Value shifts were a tricky idea for me to internalize at the level of a scene, but once I grokked the concept, it had a cascade effect on my scene work.
Thank you this is easily one of the most helpful writing videos I’ve ever seen. Im standing here getting ready and it’s like your speaking to my soul. As in to the very stage of the novel process that I’m currently on, which is the second draft and I’m taking notes on all my chapters, to see what they need and what to cut and how to keep the story tight as one. And this scene by scene advice is really, really good.
So, what would be helpful to me would be to see a great book marked up so that every scene has these five elements noted. I need to see scene after great scene that follow the five commandments. Without that, I can't begin to consider editing forty chapters to ensure they follow a formula.
I don't agree on a consistent genre point, although doing it well is challenging. My book won an award in the cross genre category in a contest. Done well, it can produce addicting, unpredictable writing. I would say it's more risky than wrong. You have to change genre and tone together with an action event. That action event also needs to be set up in the scene to prepare the reader for the shift. If you miss any of those elements, then I could see how that feels like a mistake.
I think if the target of audience is beginner writers, then wrong would be more accurate. Most of them barely able to write one genre properly, and changing genre means that they have to be able to write multiple genres properly. Once they have more experience in that, then they can do what you've done and might be successful, but it's very unlikely for a beginner writer to be able to do it. Just like another writing tips and tricks though, it's not a rule so anyone doesn't have to follow it but it's still worth to keep it in mind
I am with you. I think that all this focus on general rules (often quite abstract ones) sometimes makes people forget that what matters most in a novel is the *actual story*. And it is the actual story that dictates, for instance, the need for an action sequence. All the examples of problematic "genre inconsistency" I've come across can easily be analysed as *story inconsistency*. Basically, it is a "changing horses in midstream" kind of situation. But it is not about genre per se. Whether you change the love story into a crime story, or one love story into another love story, it can be equally problematic. It's just that the readers expect the story to be a *whole*.
Thank you, very helpful. One thing I did do recently was add more setting after reading Jude the Obscure and starting to read A Game of Thrones, which both have great setting as well as great characters and plot.
I already knew most of this, but the genre/value shift bit was new to me! Excited to watch that video and delve more into what you have to say about that topic. Thank you!
Ive been writing forever, but i never gey far. 6 chapters, 10 chapter etc. Ive found a few things that i think will help me. Im avoiding writing short stories because i have a story in my head, started writing the outline (im doing a chapter by chapter, one of the things im changing which ive never done before.) I plan on it being 40 chapters or a few more...75,000 words (more or less) And i just dont want to distract from what im inspired to do right now. But there is 1 main protagonist and i was planning to do a mix of first and 3rd close. So maybe im staying within some of your guidlines?
I'm curious any feedback on the early parts of a book lacking the same level of conflict and stakes. My chapters 1-2 are the MC going into work in the magical capital. He has conflict with his Mom, we get a sense of his personality from a friend, and mainly we understand that he lives in a 2-class world when he enters the capital, and the inciting incident occurs at the end of ch. 2. Chapter 3 is the love interest, who is part of the higher class, and we see her going into work for the day, her regular challenges, juxtapose this with the MC and then she ends up meeting the MC at the end of ch. 3. My first 3 chapters are what I would call "slower," but there is still tons of discovery, character development, tone, and some conflict. For the first book in a fantasy series, this strikes me as smart, and it's definitely intentional that I want the reader to have a brief calm in each character's world before the storm. But are today's readers going to get bored? I've read tons of books with this feel and love them.
'Do not give lots of info ALL AT ONCE that your reader doesn't need to know RIGHT NOW …' You make a great point. I agree wholeheartedly with 'minimum viable exposition'. To me that is of paramount importance. 'Minimum' implies only info that is necessary and economical. 'Viable' implies that wandering off-topic (non-viable) info is not a good idea. The reason, of course, is that expo is hard to make interesting, emotional, or intriguing since it's just 'necessary' facts. Readers want to feel things, see people interact, and be made curious, which expo can't do well. It's kind of a necessary evil, so minimizing it is important. It sounds to me (from your words above at 8:08) that you also believe in another thing that I believe in, which is only give those bits of info to the reader at the most opportune time, which is typically directly before they need that bit of info. Too late obviously does not work well, and too early leaves them wondering why you're even giving them new info. If you consistently give the info right before they need it, they will see the pattern, and know that when they do see new info, it will be quickly evident why. And it should be within their working memory, which is about 125 words. Earlier would typically be too early.
1. 1:01 no actual change 2. 1:38 no clear genre 3. 2:16 genre change 4. 2:53 starts too early 5. 3:34 no clear object of desire 6. 4:09 characters act inconsistently 7. 5:05 boring or plot-driven dialogue 8. 6:07 character too competent 9. 7:16 info dumping 10. 8:16 undeveloped setting
Ooo! I wrestled with this for a bit. Think about nesting dolls. In the first quarter of the story, your character's sense of self is limited to their current experience and the building crisis they're grappling with. The scenes will build tension in the external and internal genre along the core value/emotions of the genres you're playing with. A crisis is a frame-break. Think of the crisis of the first quarter is like opening the first layer of a nesting doll and revealing that next doll. It's a more condensed version of the main protags, a being revealed through the cracks in the outer nesting doll over time.
Value shifts don't have to be dramatic changes every scene. The value moves along a spectrum and can go in either direction. If the value is shifting from life to death in a given scene, then it can go one of four ways: positive to negative (+/-), negative to positive (-/+), positive to more positive (+/++), and negative to more negative (-/--). In an action novel you might be moving from life to death along the spectrum throughout the novel, but each individual scene can move slightly towards death or significantly towards death. And maybe there's a scene or two of reprieve for the antagonist where it moves towards life in a scene (-/+). That's my understanding from reading a few of the Story Grid books.
Personally I disagree with an early inciting incident depending on how the scene is crafted; a decent build up that doesn't stray or info dump or run too long, then followed with the next scenes that at least touches on the incident. Just my opinion as an unwashed unpublished layman! ^_^
I have a huge question. When it comes to keeping your scene’s inciting incident close to the beginning; are we talking in terms of chapters or just scenes? Because in chapters, usually the beginning is addressing the end of the previous chapter that ended on more or less cliff hanger. Would would you say that the inciting incident of those chapter intros were indeed the contents of the end of the previous chapter?
Not story grid, but I heard scenes described as 1 of 2 types: 1) Goal, conflict, disaster 2) Reaction, dilemma, decision Don't fixate on the chapter, but it sounds like the end of one of your chapters has the #1 type of scene, and the cliffhanger is a disaster of some kind. Then you're starting the next chapter with a scene #2 (it makes a lot of sense for these types of scenes to alternate--one scene should be a reaction to the previous one. In case this is helpful at all! Got this from another writer on RUclips, Brandon McNulty if you're curious.
@@PhoenixCrown that’s helpful to think about for sure! And I love Brandon’s videos! This channel and that channel are two humongously helpful resources
I had to laugh when you said basically dont have your protagonist solving all their problems. Meanwhile my main character is a pampered dont mess up my nails girl being forced be be a gladiator fighting monsters.
Tim does a good job of it in this video. I'm subscribed to another channel run by a fellow who may have wonderful things to say, but I cannot stand his voice. Tim's delivery held my interest.
This seems more applicable to screenplays than novels. The very fact that he says 'scenes' rather than chapters. He makes some good points but its this kind of overly prescriptive advice that drives me crazy from writing gurus.
I hear you on the overly prescriptive, but I think Story Grid's goal is to help writers bring forth their best story, and they way they can help is by giving clear, consistent advice based on a framework proven to work. It's helpful for me to see how their methodology works and then be sure I can justify breaking a "rule." (Plus, I'm taking perspective from other writers and sources.) Chapters vs. scenes though, ensure you have a plan here. I think of chapters as WHAT needs to happen in the story to move it forward that next step and scenes as HOW that happens, from what angle, who's perspective, where in the world etc. Let me know thoughts!
Don't let the term scene distract you from the great content presented in this video. Scene is a term used in fiction writing for novels as well as in film. Dwight Swain talks about scenes in his book Techniques of the Selling Writer and that was published in 1965. Jack Bickham's book Scene & Structure does an excellent job of explaining scenes in novel writing as well.
This is superior content; far better than 90% of YT author pundits. Pithy, cogent, and pitched at an 'intelligent' level which means that someone who knows the basics will also come away with something useful to think about. Thanks so much; you should have many more subs.
I chuckled at my self when you mentioned starting too early. As I've heard this advice before, I was very determined to not do so, to the point where I actually was starting my scene really late, like right before crisis and anyone who read it was instantly lost. So not starting too early is definitely good advice, but don't do what I did and obsess over it to the point you start to late. (I know you can start a scene in medias res, but as that was not my intention, nor do I feel it would be best for the scene)
I do this too and I also forget to describe the setting because it's boring to me and my readers say "where are the characters?" lol
Value shifts were a tricky idea for me to internalize at the level of a scene, but once I grokked the concept, it had a cascade effect on my scene work.
What a great, tight, super-fast roundup. Thank you. Also, I love thy shirt.
Thanks so much!
Great video, kudos! And great T-Shirt, as well.. ;-)
Thanks and thanks!
Great video. Working on my psychological thriller, and this is helpful.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you this is easily one of the most helpful writing videos I’ve ever seen. Im standing here getting ready and it’s like your speaking to my soul. As in to the very stage of the novel process that I’m currently on, which is the second draft and I’m taking notes on all my chapters, to see what they need and what to cut and how to keep the story tight as one. And this scene by scene advice is really, really good.
So, what would be helpful to me would be to see a great book marked up so that every scene has these five elements noted. I need to see scene after great scene that follow the five commandments. Without that, I can't begin to consider editing forty chapters to ensure they follow a formula.
We actually have several of these available in book form in our website.
I don't agree on a consistent genre point, although doing it well is challenging. My book won an award in the cross genre category in a contest. Done well, it can produce addicting, unpredictable writing. I would say it's more risky than wrong. You have to change genre and tone together with an action event. That action event also needs to be set up in the scene to prepare the reader for the shift. If you miss any of those elements, then I could see how that feels like a mistake.
I think if the target of audience is beginner writers, then wrong would be more accurate. Most of them barely able to write one genre properly, and changing genre means that they have to be able to write multiple genres properly.
Once they have more experience in that, then they can do what you've done and might be successful, but it's very unlikely for a beginner writer to be able to do it.
Just like another writing tips and tricks though, it's not a rule so anyone doesn't have to follow it but it's still worth to keep it in mind
I am with you. I think that all this focus on general rules (often quite abstract ones) sometimes makes people forget that what matters most in a novel is the *actual story*. And it is the actual story that dictates, for instance, the need for an action sequence. All the examples of problematic "genre inconsistency" I've come across can easily be analysed as *story inconsistency*. Basically, it is a "changing horses in midstream" kind of situation. But it is not about genre per se. Whether you change the love story into a crime story, or one love story into another love story, it can be equally problematic. It's just that the readers expect the story to be a *whole*.
Love the shirt!
Usable, practical advice, delivered with clarity. You just earned a new sub!
Cool t-shirt :) Thanks for another great video!
Thank you, very helpful. One thing I did do recently was add more setting after reading Jude the Obscure and starting to read A Game of Thrones, which both have great setting as well as great characters and plot.
Thank you. Again.
My pleasure!
This video too is too good. Thanks
Thanks so much for your generosity and putting this out there.
I have one question, though:
Where can I get that shirt?
Really excellent advice, and it can actually be applied to the entire book, too!
I already knew most of this, but the genre/value shift bit was new to me! Excited to watch that video and delve more into what you have to say about that topic. Thank you!
Ive been writing forever, but i never gey far. 6 chapters, 10 chapter etc. Ive found a few things that i think will help me. Im avoiding writing short stories because i have a story in my head, started writing the outline (im doing a chapter by chapter, one of the things im changing which ive never done before.) I plan on it being 40 chapters or a few more...75,000 words (more or less) And i just dont want to distract from what im inspired to do right now. But there is 1 main protagonist and i was planning to do a mix of first and 3rd close. So maybe im staying within some of your guidlines?
Love all these comments as well as the video!
I'm curious any feedback on the early parts of a book lacking the same level of conflict and stakes.
My chapters 1-2 are the MC going into work in the magical capital. He has conflict with his Mom, we get a sense of his personality from a friend, and mainly we understand that he lives in a 2-class world when he enters the capital, and the inciting incident occurs at the end of ch. 2.
Chapter 3 is the love interest, who is part of the higher class, and we see her going into work for the day, her regular challenges, juxtapose this with the MC and then she ends up meeting the MC at the end of ch. 3.
My first 3 chapters are what I would call "slower," but there is still tons of discovery, character development, tone, and some conflict. For the first book in a fantasy series, this strikes me as smart, and it's definitely intentional that I want the reader to have a brief calm in each character's world before the storm. But are today's readers going to get bored? I've read tons of books with this feel and love them.
'Do not give lots of info ALL AT ONCE that your reader doesn't need to know RIGHT NOW …'
You make a great point. I agree wholeheartedly with 'minimum viable exposition'. To me that is of paramount importance. 'Minimum' implies only info that is necessary and economical. 'Viable' implies that wandering off-topic (non-viable) info is not a good idea.
The reason, of course, is that expo is hard to make interesting, emotional, or intriguing since it's just 'necessary' facts. Readers want to feel things, see people interact, and be made curious, which expo can't do well. It's kind of a necessary evil, so minimizing it is important.
It sounds to me (from your words above at 8:08) that you also believe in another thing that I believe in, which is only give those bits of info to the reader at the most opportune time, which is typically directly before they need that bit of info. Too late obviously does not work well, and too early leaves them wondering why you're even giving them new info.
If you consistently give the info right before they need it, they will see the pattern, and know that when they do see new info, it will be quickly evident why. And it should be within their working memory, which is about 125 words. Earlier would typically be too early.
Yes to all of this!
Great video
What are some examples of dialogue being 'too plotty' vs moving the plot forward?
1. 1:01 no actual change
2. 1:38 no clear genre
3. 2:16 genre change
4. 2:53 starts too early
5. 3:34 no clear object of desire
6. 4:09 characters act inconsistently
7. 5:05 boring or plot-driven dialogue
8. 6:07 character too competent
9. 7:16 info dumping
10. 8:16 undeveloped setting
I’m still getting hung up on the value shift, and if it changes every scene how you can make the major shift at the climax impactful.
Ooo! I wrestled with this for a bit.
Think about nesting dolls.
In the first quarter of the story, your character's sense of self is limited to their current experience and the building crisis they're grappling with.
The scenes will build tension in the external and internal genre along the core value/emotions of the genres you're playing with.
A crisis is a frame-break. Think of the crisis of the first quarter is like opening the first layer of a nesting doll and revealing that next doll. It's a more condensed version of the main protags, a being revealed through the cracks in the outer nesting doll over time.
@@feruspriestokay I think I’m seeing that, thanks
Yeah, makes sense; it sounds like you have written a book that follows your advice. I'd like to read it, is it on Amazon? @@feruspriest
Value shifts don't have to be dramatic changes every scene.
The value moves along a spectrum and can go in either direction. If the value is shifting from life to death in a given scene, then it can go one of four ways: positive to negative (+/-), negative to positive (-/+), positive to more positive (+/++), and negative to more negative (-/--).
In an action novel you might be moving from life to death along the spectrum throughout the novel, but each individual scene can move slightly towards death or significantly towards death. And maybe there's a scene or two of reprieve for the antagonist where it moves towards life in a scene (-/+). That's my understanding from reading a few of the Story Grid books.
Personally I disagree with an early inciting incident depending on how the scene is crafted; a decent build up that doesn't stray or info dump or run too long, then followed with the next scenes that at least touches on the incident.
Just my opinion as an unwashed unpublished layman! ^_^
Good shirt
I have a huge question. When it comes to keeping your scene’s inciting incident close to the beginning; are we talking in terms of chapters or just scenes? Because in chapters, usually the beginning is addressing the end of the previous chapter that ended on more or less cliff hanger. Would would you say that the inciting incident of those chapter intros were indeed the contents of the end of the previous chapter?
Not story grid, but I heard scenes described as 1 of 2 types:
1) Goal, conflict, disaster
2) Reaction, dilemma, decision
Don't fixate on the chapter, but it sounds like the end of one of your chapters has the #1 type of scene, and the cliffhanger is a disaster of some kind. Then you're starting the next chapter with a scene #2 (it makes a lot of sense for these types of scenes to alternate--one scene should be a reaction to the previous one.
In case this is helpful at all! Got this from another writer on RUclips, Brandon McNulty if you're curious.
@@PhoenixCrown that’s helpful to think about for sure! And I love Brandon’s videos! This channel and that channel are two humongously helpful resources
I hope you don't mind, I copied what your shirt says and printed it out. Right now this country needs more of those thoughts.
I had to laugh when you said basically dont have your protagonist solving all their problems. Meanwhile my main character is a pampered dont mess up my nails girl being forced be be a gladiator fighting monsters.
5:26
Huh,i pretty much push my pratogonist to the point where she just asks for death, and yet saved by somone or survives. its more fun.
Sorry about the Madam Web ad.
Tim does a good job of it in this video. I'm subscribed to another channel run by a fellow who may have wonderful things to say, but I cannot stand his voice. Tim's delivery held my interest.
This seems more applicable to screenplays than novels. The very fact that he says 'scenes' rather than chapters. He makes some good points but its this kind of overly prescriptive advice that drives me crazy from writing gurus.
There can be more than one scene in a chapter and a chapter can split a scene into multiple. So scenes aren’t necessarily wrong
I hear you on the overly prescriptive, but I think Story Grid's goal is to help writers bring forth their best story, and they way they can help is by giving clear, consistent advice based on a framework proven to work. It's helpful for me to see how their methodology works and then be sure I can justify breaking a "rule." (Plus, I'm taking perspective from other writers and sources.)
Chapters vs. scenes though, ensure you have a plan here. I think of chapters as WHAT needs to happen in the story to move it forward that next step and scenes as HOW that happens, from what angle, who's perspective, where in the world etc.
Let me know thoughts!
Don't let the term scene distract you from the great content presented in this video. Scene is a term used in fiction writing for novels as well as in film. Dwight Swain talks about scenes in his book Techniques of the Selling Writer and that was published in 1965. Jack Bickham's book Scene & Structure does an excellent job of explaining scenes in novel writing as well.
Love thy virtue signals.
It's what I live for.
@@StoryGrid👍