Can confirm. When I first started writing, I decided to pen a ten-volume fantasy series akin to Song of Ice and Fire. I legitimately thought I'd create a fantasy epic my first crack out, and nothing could dissuade me. I spent years -- YEARS -- on the worldbuilding, but only ended up writing about nine chapters of the bloody thing, until I eventually burned out. This was back in 2015. A mentor of mine thankfully told me at the time, "You've got a successful book in you, but this isn't it." Best advice I've ever been given. I went back to basics, learned to hike, as it were, and got my first short story published in 2018. It was 5000 words, and I made $300. Flash forward to now, and my first novel, "Into the Known Universe: A Cosmic Love Story, Kinda" is being released in April 2024. The fantasy epic is currently in a drawer gathering dust. Now, I tell aspiring writers the exact same thing -- start with a short story, learn the craft, and go from there.
Would you feel differently if you completed a 192k word first draft inside of 30 days, nailed most of the characters, created an action packed adventure story with a bad ass ending and built an awesome world?
I just read the sample of your book on Amazon. I saw you not ending dialogue with end quotes. Why? Multiple times? And the mention of a David Lynch film millions of years into the future from now? Doesn't that seem a little, off?
Would you say it's fine to wrote short stories that pertain to your world? I have an epic fantasy world in mind and have been writing short stories to develop the history of the world instead of an entirely new piece.
I feel that first part. Spent years on a project, but it didn't work. Now im thinking of setting a group of short stories like Journals from a historian/ adventurer in my universe.
These guys from "Story Grid" are a godsend. They are among the very rare people who can tell an aspiring writer what needs to be said, and they are able to say it in a loud, clear voice. Listen to them. Thank you for this video, Tim. Kudos to you. Just let me add a small contribution: limit your writing style to something simple. Do not try to copy James Joyce, Lev Tolstoi or Dante Alighieri. Even the best authors have written great books with a simple, easy-to write, easy-to-read prose.
I can attest to this wisdom. I wrote for eleven years before I got ANYTHING published. At this point, I have nearly 30 books on the market, and sooo glad none of my first attempts were accepted.
It is worth mentioning that some of the unforgettable classics, such as Earnest Hemminway's The Old Man and The Sea, was 26,531 words and as such, was a novella.
I’ve gone from researching and getting the plot down to faffing around because the consistent writing bit is so hard! Way harder than I anticipated. This is great motivation, thanks.
*sobs* I've already broken all your rules....It's been in my mind since I was 19, and picked it back up the last 4 years. Literally it is the only story I have in me (that I know of), the only one I want to write, that I MUST write. Obviously, I've run into a few of the problems you've mentioned, and I still have not been able to force myself to just write the story in a fashion in which I can just go back and edit heavily after. My mind wants me to see the words on the page perfectly as the final product, even though I know that is not even a remote possibility. I'm currently writing small parts into my (fully plotted and I am admittedly more pantser) story in Scrivener as I listen to this, cringing as I learn everything I'm beating myself up over is my fault LOL! I can't quit, this story is my heart. Without something else interesting to write, is there some way to use the story I have and compartmentalize it in some way, or perhaps write the plots separately as single storylines, and interweave them after when I have more experience? It is very difficult for me to change at all, and now I'm past the halfway point of my life. Multiple people have read what I have done so far, co-workers, honest friends, and a few further removed, the reviews are mostly positive so I feel I am tentatively on the 'right track'. I cannot reiterate how important this story is for me to get out, to share with the world before I pass on.
Keep in mind this guy hasn't written all that much himself outside of pushing his own brand of writing advice, so I would suggest taking everything he says with a (very heavy) grain of salt. The question for you is not whether or not you should set down this story you have stuck in your mind but rather how to get it done. To that end, it might be worth it to try crafting a few unrelated stories just to help learn how it is done and how you yourself operate as a writer. The mere act of getting something done can be a huge confidence boost if nothing else, and that's something you'll need for the long haul.
May I suggest writing the backstories of your characters out as standalone short stories? This helps you practice the mechanics, gives you a better grip of the world you're writing in (an keeps your mind in that world instead of distracting it with others) , fleshes out the background characters, and provides fuel for the main plot when you back to your big project. Think of it as the Hobbit -or Silmarillion, depending on how deep you decide to go- to your Lord of the Rings.
@@Nizzet @JasonGorton I guess in a few ways I think he's partially right...I've taken a long time and 170K words into a book that isn't finished, but I have plotted it out from beginning to end now, and feel that continuing on and writing it all out will be much better. I'd really rather write it all out and then decide if it's more than one book, or if things need cut out, I'll have a better idea of where to do so. I definitely don't agree with his hard stance on 'read a lot, write a lot'. You need to read stories you enjoy to understand how a good story is put together on the page, not as well from instructions on how to do so. Reading from a writer's point of view, seeing the pillars holding the story together, you won't get that experience from an instructional video no matter how good it is. You will write a lot! No matter if you follow instructions or not you will write, and you will make mistakes, fix them, and you will find your voice doing it. Now should you just keep writing to infinity without evaluating your prose? Of course not. You work on it and improve and then apply what you've learned, but YOU WILL WRITE A LOT if you're serious about writing. I don't hold myself to a word count when I sit down to write, but I have good days and bad days...Anyway, I thank you for your pep talk, I really needed it.
@@hawkwolf Yeah man, keep going. They both said what I was going to say. I'm almost finished with my first novel, its got two protagonists, Its also around 100,000 words. IT sounds like you're on the right track. The man might be passionate about his advice but how much has he actually written? Anyway you've got good advice from these comments. Good luck!
I completely agree with this advice. The hosts of the Story Nerd podcast give the same advice (I think they're both Story Grid certified), which is what led me to change my plans for my first novel to be single protagonist, linear timeline. Your other advice aligns (mostly) with what I'm doing. I'm old enough that I definitely don't want to take 12 years to write this book.
On Mount Everest, you can fall to your death or see your toes freeze off. When you try too much too soon in writing, nothing like this happens. You may totally mess up, learn from it and do it better next time. I think the most important thing is to get started, so you need that story idea you really want to write. If that's a complicated plot with seven protagonists in a world only you are able to understand yet, so be it. Trying to limit it may lead to a story idea that's not what you have in mind, like writing a school essay. When I decided to write a book, I had that idea with a dozen POV characters in multiple factions, several plot twists, face/heel turns, etc. It took quite long to even come to a finish a first draft. And there are so many things to do, like reducing the cast of POV's. In the process, getting in contact with other amateur writers, I wrote a short story based on a prompt. That worked fine and gave me some confidence to continue the long one.
Halfway through the first draft of my novel and I have to say, you guys are spot on with good coherent advice. Definetely earned a sub from me and I'll be recommending your videos to all writers I know. Thanks!!
I like learning is small chunks and small labs, if you will. I create a lab to learn some aspect that is of interest to me and I set aside time where I can focus on that. I think a 3000 word short story is ideal for "lab work" and I consider a 30,000 word novella of a nice length also.
I can't say I'm necessarily 'resisting' this advice...I think it's great advice, and I've actually done a lot of what you're talking about. I've discovered that I struggle with 'simple', though, and my writing really shines when the story is complex.
I did, too. My task is to take all those complex ideas and simplify them to their most concentrated state. What matters most in this idea? How do I execute it tactfully? Sometimes, I have to drop ideas because I can't find room for them in the story, but I feel like it's overall rewarding.
Someone did a head count of George R.R. Martin's characters. The total? 2,017. That is not a year, that is how many different characters he wrote-so far, just in the current series he's still writing. That does not invalidate Tim's advice, I just found it interesting. And I believe Tim's advice is all great. But there is something that budding writers should be aware of: One protagonist, fictionalized 'you', first person-those are great ideas for a first-timer (or a many-timer), and if you choose those, they will serve you all the way through. Keep it short, limit characters, narrow the world-also great starting advice. But a writer should not be that surprised if the focus there might change over time, regardless what their first intentions might have been. A story seems to often go where it wants, and often, once you know and can inhabit your characters, they will actually tell you what happens next. Additional characters may just appear out of necessity for the story. And a story will end up being as long or short as it needs to be. Of course, the role of the writer in regards to all that is to keep things corralled within reason, and keeping Tim's advice in mind is part of how to do that, but sometimes these things organically change bc the story demands them. They will be surprises you were likely not counting on. I can't discount the advice, it's all good. But it is also important to listen to what the story wants from you, and sometimes it might eventually want to exceed those three restrictions. If the story presents a legit argument, like a defense attorney to a judge, it's worth considering allowing the story to go where it should. I would imagine Sand and Sea might have evolved in this sort of way. But you also should understand that the little mountain you are climbing might be more like Mt. Everest than you might have expected. And that your story will be, as Tim says, 'exponentially harder' to write well, and will likely take a lot longer than you expected. You must be able to commit to that. You have to do the due diligence of the hard work necessary, and know that this will be your expected path. The good news is that if your goal is to be a seasoned mountain climber, if you discover that you are actually climbing Everest, that can teach you a whole lot more than that little mountain can, if you are motivated enough.
I suspect GRRM's character count confirms Tim's advice. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he abandoned A Song of Ice and Fire because it got too big even for him.
@@val_nightlily Me, too. When GoT came on HBO, I took one look at the way it was being presented and gave an emphatic 'No'. I was not about to have to juggle tons of characters as a viewer. That concept shoots the concept of clarity directly in the foot. I happily never saw one frame of that show. I got writing to do! Readers (and viewers) really are not that fond of authors handing them rock after heavy rock that they are expected to carry in their backpack for the entire journey. Too much quid for the quo.
@@tomlewis4748 I presume you didn't read the books either? Well, you have deprived yourself of learning how to write the very best breakfast descriptions.
Tim, that is so simple and at the same time so helpful. I am already keeping my story in one place, having only one antagonist, only one hero, but as a beginner, it´s still a challenge for me to convince myself that this will become a good read at a certain point. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and experience from Germany!
OK, I am only two minutes into the video and I already agree. I am a newb here. I have had an "Epic" idea as he described, two in fact. The first was conceived in 2010. I am not working on those projects where writing is concerned. A little world building and research only. I am working on a first book meant to be a novella. It is a throw away project simply for practice. It does have promise for a possible sequel or series but that is of no concern for now. If it falls completely flat, I learned something and will move on to another practice project.
I love these tips. It's easy to get carried away with exciting ideas, but I'm interested in just writing the thing in its most simple form to start. Binge watching your videos lately -- keep up the great work, we appreciate it. 💫
Using the "Master Work" as a "model" is what is amazing about the Story Grid. Grid It Out!!! Think about all those hit song-writers out there, they do the same exact thing - it's an ultra-short "story grid" and there are plenty of "hits" that are considered formulaic - they are but they work just like the story grid does.
Thankfully I found this video. I was literally in the process of falling into the exact trap you described. Obviously need to research specific areas for science part of sci-fi, but I don't need to know as much as I think. Great advice, and it was much needed!
I have written around four short stories recently and entered writing contests. I haven't had luck in most of them, but reading the winning stories, I'm only barely beginning to understand what I'm doing wrong and how I can fix it to get better. It's so true that you need to start small. My big novel is currently safely shelved and waiting to be published someday, but I totally plan on writing more novels in the meantime, no longer than 40.000 words each.😊
I'm in the same boat. My first book idea started to feel too big, so I've put it away and am now looking at short story ideas and basic one off adventures.😅
Thank you for this. I actually have spent the last 10 years worldbuilding a world with 9 different eras, so that any story I might want to tell, can be told within the same world/universe. I also just published my first novel ("Whispers of the Wind: A Torcorvion Tale") and so far its been met with positive reception. However - i myself am extremely underwhelmed with every single page out of the 450+ that are in that book. I already have the next novels i want to write outlined, and the STORIES are good. Its the actual writing of them that i cant seem to do. Then again, i have spent the last 20 years focused on hip hop. I was once nominated as one of the best young fiction writers in my state, and now im getting back into what made me start writing - but I'm super disappointed with everything i write. But, i am so thankful to have stumbled across this channel. Youre absolutely right. I should not have written Whispers of the Wind as my first novel. I should have gone back to the basics. However - theres no changing the past. Going forward, i am scaling way back. Im going to be writing storytelling poems, ballads, odes, and short stories. Still set in Torcorvion, but I think youre right, that I need to go back and re-learn to hike. Thank you for these videos
Also, having a small realistic project finished and actually shipped would give a considerable boost to self confidence. So, it is important to have this first win, albeight small, to get confidence boost for a bigger project.
This is the video that best portrays newbies. You know what you're talking about and you've totally portrayed me. I've been developing "ultimate software" for writing my first novel for over 15 years (better than Scribener or Manuskript, of course because it's mine)... and I haven't written a word yet. What I had planned was a mix of Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings with some Dark Tower... You've brought me back down to earth. Thank you so much.
The thing is, you want to have fun writing. IDC about it being good, I'm just having fun. Already wrote 70k (by the plan there's about 100k to go) and for me, 2 hours of that a day is better than tv. The complexity is what make it fun.
Interesting perspective on first person. I always thought of third person at the more natural storytelling voice: i.e. relating the story of someone else. But I can see how modern storytelling has shifted to being about ourselves.
Love your message. Writing isn’t hard it’s just complex but people assume complex means many and a lot so that makes sense that translates to many POVs and characters.
#StoryGrid Great advice! Now, MY stumbling block as a Newbie is that I started with one idea which is not a novel but more, self help. Based on my own personal experience but then I starting thinking that "Maybe it can/should be about.. THIS instead?" I'm happy with starting with even a BOOKLET. Too many topics/ideas and feeling like I'm straying from one great idea to - I think, overthinking! haha I want easy reads and speaking TO, not at readers.
I did the exact opposite of what you said and my first novel has been stuck since 14 years ago !🤣🤣🤣 As in this Nanowrimo 2023, I did what you said before I discover this video, I got a much simpler and funny version of it done in only a few days ! 😆😆😆
Thank you for these great advices. Actually, these are the greatest advice I had as a new writer. Now, I can say that I am ready to write. THANKS A LOT!
Making a second note: Do you know if the spreadsheet for the Trinity seminar will be released soon? Or even if that is a possibility? I have found the information highly informative and I particularly like spreadsheets an math formulas. Just don't tell anyone.
I’m writing an urban fantasy murder mystery. I’m struggling so much because I had to rewrite fix and establish characters and my stress level was unbelievable high. But listening to you, you have a point. I’m by all means not a good writing, hell I’m not even a decent writer but I can improve myself by practicing. So when you said start small I literally went, “OH! That’s a good idea!” So I have a list of characters I want to use so why not put in murder mystery short stories. Like a tv show! 😊 thank you for your advice
These are things I discovered painfully over time. Story Grid gave me a language and a heuristic to test where I was focusing my creative impulses. As soon as I finish the revision of my WIP (using Narrative Path and Story grid tools), I'm hoping to do a round of the 1-on-1 mentorship with story grid without this current project floating in the back of my mind. I want to finish the WIP to the best of my current skills before shifting towards intentional skills-based practice.
Thank you for your video! I am writing my first novel at the moment, still in the editing phase, It's like a small mountain climbing for me hoping to climb Mountain Everest in the future! ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Really great advice for the writers to be! Great to find this video! There is so much advice on YT, people talk and talk, and all this makes the listener even more confused. There is nothing as complicated as a writing long, complex story. Even a short, simple story is not easy to craft! After all, practice is all you need.
That's great advice, which I probably won't follow exactly. Context - I've done the 20 years building a complex fantasy world and in the process I've written several short stories whilst building the backstory. I'm also over half-way through writing the novel. What I'm doing instead is limiting scope, I'm aiming for around 80,000 words max and I've limited the characters to those that will actually be involved in the story, it gives me depths to draw on if necessary. I am writing in first person who is a fictional me and one of my rules has become only to describe the world as my characters come into contact with it, including facts they have "always" known. The world only exists as a container for my protagonists emotional and personal journey, that simplifies things. They haven't come face-to-face with any magic yet and probably won't understand it when they do. I'm currently writing a short story about the final antagonist and then I need to get clear about the final confrontation. Once I've done that I think the story will more or less write itself, or at least the characters will. So yeah, I am listening, but adapting it to my needs.
I resist two aspects, the first is that I am not interested in a fictionalised version of me, that is how Mary Sue characters get made. And the other is about writing in first person, since the narrative is not about me so I can turn on full gossip mode and just write about the person the story is about. I also think that starting to write in the proposed manner of these two aspects could lead people to develop bad habits, and well, I find fiction in third person is usually more expressive.
I understand your concern about the character turning into a Mary Sue, but I think I understand his point here. Rather than a wish-fulfilment self-insert, instead focus on making the main character something relatable to you and your own life. For example, my MC in my WIP is recovering from trauma because that's what I'm going through in my own life. In this way, writing her is easy. I also agree with you on third person - I find it much easier to write and more engaging than first person. First always comes off amateurish to me, whether that's a fair judgment or not.
I began using the classic Stephen King formula: asking What if X was scary? My first object was that drink - that one everyone always sees in the western world and ignores, but everyone always buys in Russia - Vodka. Whola. What if Vodka was scary? Now you have a story about 1 protagonist who decides that vodka is scary, and he´s surrounded by a ton of people who are each living their life, but who otherwise happen to worship Vodka. No need for 9 volumes, no need to explain on page 3000 why somebody did not need to eat the dragon, no dragon, no magic system, no ice wall. Just vodka. I showed my friends only the first 30 pages and a few of them said that the flow is ok. That was important because that means the story made sense. Thanks for your video man. Best wishes to you from Reykjavik, Iceland!!
The answer to your question at 1:40 or so is likely because authors like Stephen King and George R R Martin tell new writers that they don't plan, they just sit down and write, and out spills 'The Game of Thrones' or 'The Stand.' No planning needed. Just read a lot and write a lot. Wow! What a concept, just sit down, start writing, do a bit of rewriting, and end up with a great book.
My only resistance is the idea of not developing a full new world. I had a general idea of my concept. I wrote my first chapter and quickly realized I had no idea how to put what I wanted into my story. So I sat down and developed a good synopsis and outline. My next step was to develop each area of the world followed by a good cultural description for each area. Finally, I worked on my characters. In total, I have something like a 32 page document that is all just development. It’s a working document that I’m constantly adding small pieces of information as my story develops. I’m now approximately 20% done with the story writing and so far I’m enjoying it. I had a few friends read the first 3 chapter to see if they would want to continue the story, they had a few items they brought up that I had to think about and work into my writing style, but overall good feedback. I’m hoping to be finished by the end of the year.
I think the reason I struggle to default to smaller stories before writing the book I’m working on is because it feels like abandonment. I’ve had plenty of stories that I wanted to be massive and, like you said, got overwhelming. Each time I try a new story, though, I’m getting further. Of course, I keep eventually running into the problems you’ve mentioned even if it comes later as I gain skill. Anyway, to answer the question of why I fight back internally against the short story argument is simply because I’m too attached to the big stories in my head. Even worse, I feel like if I take the breaks required to work on short stories, I’ll forget what I was doing in my larger work.
Most things you've said I totally agree with. But I don't see making a fictionalized version of myself. I don't find myself all that interesting, everyone I meet is more interesting than me. I also have played tabletop RPGs for decades, and read hundreds of novels. I have lots of models for my characters, other than myself.
This video popped up at a good time. I'm participating in nanowrimo this month and my first project is a scifi epic fantasy. I've been slacking on word count the whole month and losing motivation. My writing needs work and a smaller project would better for me to work on😊.
Think of a story as a single stream of water. Sure it may be connected to a vast system of waterways that connect to other larger bodies of water. But if you are going just down that one stream of flowing water then that is the stream that has your focus. Those other streams may at some point intertwine with the stream that you are on, and you can briefly ponder about those streams as they come and go, but you are still just focused on that one stream that you are flowing down on at that very moment. All stories are like this. Focus only on the one stream. And when you find the end at the large body of water below (lake, ocean, maybe a large river) you can always climb back up to the next stream for your next story. Happy trails and good luck! :)
I've spent the bulk of my adult life writing 5 novels but I have published none of them. They're all different genres but I'm going to write my 6th novel next week and its yet a different genre. I have never written a sequel but I have plans for a major series sometime soon. But I think its time to move into the editing and publication phase of writing.
Excellent advice. I'm just starting out, so pardon my ignorance. I'm given to understand that 1st person writing is normally associated with hard-boiled detective novels of yester years. This is great for me as those novels are fine for cutting my teeth on. However, to broaden things, I figured I'd try a 1st and 3rd person approach. I hope it works out. Either way, I'm enjoying myself. 😊
Lol I'm writing my first book its been 9 months 😅, its one protag yeah but he's supported by like 6 others with a long storied history 😅 maybe I bit off more than I can chew, but I think writing and publishing youtube videos have helped so I decided to write this one. I'm on the final chapter of the book and its one of the hardest things so far, starting and wrapping up the story in a satisfying way
In case you were wondering, somebody else is taking your advice. I caught this video just before NaNo and it's having the desired impact. It's unparalyzing me. Before I retired, I did a lot of the big, complicated work, loved it, and excelled at it. But it wasn't writing fiction. So I need to put the training wheels back on the bike and make things easier for myself.
I started a grand epic fantasy series when I was younger, without any notes, outlines, or anything. Managed to bang out about 300 or so pages before my brain exploded trying to hold all the threads together. Came back to writing around 2014 with the idea of self publishing on Amazon. Made a ton of mistakes, and actually created a RUclips channel (not like this one) about the technical side of things writers need to do. My goal was to start with erotica, and work my way up to longer works of "real writing" and it worked out well. Some sold, some didn't, some sold really well, some didn't. I'm still making money every month from books I published back in 2016 (thank you Germans and your weird kinks) and have been able to publish under a different name more mass market novels. Life is good, and I'm happy, but still a little worried about the Germans. This video is great advice, take small steps, and set goals. Self Publishing is totally doable.
Another point about steering clear of novel length in the beginning: you won't have a completed, polished manuscript for several years. At least. That's assuming it's coherent and you finished the first draft straight away.
Ooh, I wouldn't encourage folks to write their first book in first person. It "looks" easy, but it's so much more demanding than close third. The "naturalness" is deceptive.
First, to answer your question: Everyone wants to write a 9-part epic fantasy because it's awesome! (And kind of in vogue right now.) Second, this is great advice and can be applied across any skill. Start simple, build a good foundation, and go from there. However... I was one of these people, and here's a possible counter argument: I went to school for business, so I basically learned theory for 23 years before applying any real skills. I learn best by doing, and since I have a fulltime business, writing is a hobby. I wanted to write what I wanted to write, and I've been reading epic fantasy since I was a kid. One of my fears in life is being one of those people who's always TALKING about what they're going to do, and I'd rather be DOING. So I just started writing. I wrote my first book in a year, and I've been editing it for multiple years now, but it's like a case study in learning how to write. I've been learning the craft and applying it to my work. At this point, I actually feel like I've got some of this story stuff figured out and I'll be able to tell a fine, EPIC, only 4-book fantasy series. But I have no delusions that it will be the next GoT =) In case any newbie writer is curious, here are the specifics of my blunder into writing: 1) I have 1 MC, and the only other real protagonist is his love interest. 2) I'm too in love with 3rd person POV CLOSE (in the reader's head). 3) My novel came out to about 130K words--and I have cut and rewritten ~50K of that probably. 4) I worked hard to ensure characters overlap and are more interesting rather than adding more characters. I have 5-10 really important characters. 5) The first book has 1 main source of antagonism and it's an old white man ;) 6) I broke this one... my world is huge, but I think I do a good job of leaving much in mystery in the first book, so it's not confusing and even enticing. 7) I read a ton of fantasy, so I think have a good base of what works (executing on that is a different story...). I'm not resisting this advice--I just already violated it! Glad I found this channel, thanks for the great video! But like I said, I'm a DOER, not a TALKER, so I've already written my first book. Maybe I'll be working with you soon to get it published!
I started out in 2016 to write a book. It was going to be a love story, about the dangers and life lessons and be so deep and it'll move people. Couldn't figure out why it wasn't just, you know, writing itself lol. So I thought, maybe practice with another one, till I get better at figuring this out. Started another novel in about 2020. I'm only just now starting to kinda figure out what should be happening next. After watching this, now it's all making sense why I was confused about why it's not just writing itself, why I can't figure it out when they say, "just sit down and write" and I do that, but I don't feel like I'm getting better lol. I wish I knew about this channel and all the information they put out, back in 2016 😅😅😅.
I have in fact, already written a first fantasy, multi-POV draft of a gajillion words and the plot is so much confetti :D Slowly rewriting, but now I have a second smaller main project aimed to be 21 chapters. Much more manageable and a great learning experience!
I was gonna disagree but then I remembered that that is exactly what I did. First a short story, then a novella, and then an 80k novel. I would only recommend not to get stuck writing tons of short stories if your goal is to write a novel. Write one or two and jump to something bigger. It is quite nice to write something over 40k just so that you can say that you wrote a novel. Then you can move on and do some nice work
I REALLY want to write my book and this was great advice. However, the end when you asked “why are you puttiing off writing your book,” it’s quite the oppotiste for me. I get too carried away in this imaginary world of characters, magic, and technology, and I have to slow down and do the research, learn, and take advice first. I’ve always tried to make little stories and that was the problem: no real thought for the plot or endgame. I already wrote 3 pages and feeling myself rush, but I know it’s going to take time and I’m more than likely going to delete most of it. I want it to feel right and go in with the correct knowledge and wisdom than to write impulsively and make it as I go.
I recognised this problem and decided to write a simple novel as a way of easing myself into the huge, sweeping sci-fi/fantasy series. I even chose a child for my protagonist (a child with some of my own characteristics) to keep things simple and constrained. A larger story is hinted at but the plot never leaves the child's neighbourhood. The problem I now have is staying focused on that short, simple novel. Even when much of the epic has been left on the bench, set aside for future novels, I find myself tempted to complicate the story and add subplots concerning the child's parents, neighbours, and friends. Writing a "simple" novel is actually very hard. I have to force myself to NOT think about the epic story, easier said than done for a daydreamer who likes to live in their head. Happily, I've found a masterwork to work with. Charlotte's Web. A short, deceptively simple novel that involves many of the author's thoughts on things like death, justice, and the significance of religion. It couldn't be a more perfect companion to the kind of story I want to write. So thanks for that tip! Here's to getting "Neighbourhood Witch Alliance" finished!
I managed to cut down my story to 3 viewpoint characters, but it's still a sprawling epic space opera with worldbuilding and believable technology. The reason I know it's right for me is because I'm almost finished with the first draft!
1:54 yea I’m guilty of this as I was planning on having gods of the Omniverse and one gives some power to someone for they would go out causing chaos I didn’t even have a plot I was just doing what ever came to my mind and I didn’t get far not even having the character enter another universe unless you count the void
I'm basically breaking all the rules, lol. I have written some comics before, and a few short stories, but this is my first novel. It has three protagonists (or arguably two protagonists and one perspective antagonist). While it's not on the level of a song of ice and fire, there are many many characters. It has an expansive fantasy world (although I was quite lazy/efficient with the world building compared to other meticulous writers. I basically took early iron age middle east, infused it with some aztec and mayan human sacrifice and some inca traditions, made everyone monkeys and then logiced it out so everything will make sense.) And while originally it meant to be one novel, it will split into three parts. The first book's draft is almost finished, currently at 135k words (I'm doing my best to keep it short, I promise 😂). I'm having a lot of fun writing it, to be honest, and I do intend on trying to publish this first book of mine, even if it's unlikely. I wanna take a break from the book after I finish the first draft, before I start to edit it. Perhaps I'll write a short story (I already came up with a concept) So yeah, I respectfully decline your advice ;)
Why are new authors so over ambitious? I think I know. It is because of advice from publishers and editors on sites like this. Basically what they are telling authors is that publishers are not interested in publishing any novel shorter than 80,000 preferably 100,000 words. It seems to me as if books are sold by weight nowadays. My first novel, as yet unfinished, was shaping up to be a 200+ page book, okay in the days of Evelyn Waugh or someone, but apparently not now. Having seen the consistent advice from so many publishers that a novel has to be at least 80,000 words to even be considered for publication really discouraged me and my project is still lying in limbo. Of course if new authors are targeting 120,000 words they might start with a lot of characters to generate enough sub-plots and combinations to sustain this kind of length.
I have this sci-fi trilogy in my head. But I realized it's going to be difficult, so I'm first doing a small HFY Sci-fi story, after that I'll go for a novella and take it from there
Another thing I've seen professional writers do is write a successful short story - and then later on (maybe many years later) turn that short story into a novel. I've seen this in two different ways: The author rewrites the original story, but expands it greatly. (2) The author uses the short story as a chapter in the novel that tells much more of the story, editing the original only as appropriate to make it fit as a chapter in the larger story. Back in the old days (as in, several decades ago), it was not uncommon for novel-length stories to be serialized.
Don’t necessarily agree with this. The “start from the bottom and work your way up to the top” works for most because it’s been hammered into our brains since childhood. But saying it’s impossible to reverse that course by “starting at the top” isn’t some golden rule that needs to be fallowed or it results in failure. One word, fear. I guarantee you that if your life depended on getting yourself up that Mt. Everest, you’re not going to say “Oh, I guess I’ll just die then because I’m not a skilled mountain climber.” If you’re not a trained actor and Tarantino or Spielberg came to you and said, “Looks wise, you are perfect for a role in a film I’ll be working on. Would you like to audition for the role?” Will you tell that famous director “I’ve never acted before so I have to respectfully decline.” Or will you acknowledge this potentially life changing opportunity that the majority of trained actors probably will never get by saying “I’m honored for this opportunity and I’ll give you 100%, despite having no skills.” There are obvious things you can’t just jump into because they do require A LOT of training or you could be severely injured or die…like gymnastics or Formula One racing, or building a sky scraper, or becoming a surgeon. But, we’re talking about ART, which lives predominantly in the world of the subjective. There are masterful writers who have moderate success and there a mediocre writers that are multi time NYT best sellers who’ve sold millions of copies world wide. You just have to acknowledge that the massive story your writing as your first project will demand a whole lot more from you. Saying to yourself that this project is the only project that matters to me right now. I’m going to learn as much as I can, through knowledge and observation, and my learning through experience will be this massive project. Well, ok then, no excuses. Stakes are extremely high. Get to work and get it done.
The point is, to get from where you are to a mile away takes taking one step at a time. Simple. Sounds like you just want to be contrary for the sake of it.
I get what you're saying, and it's totally right, but what is wrong with having a little ambition? And why does it annoy you to the point of cussing the F word if ambitious newbies decide to run before they can walk?
Well, just to be clear, it doesn't take much for me to use the F word. But also, I care deeply about this subject and writers and helping them reach their goals so it's easy for me to get worked up about it. - Tim
Why the f*#&*$%? am I writing the epic you ask. Cause that epic is in my head, no other story, just this one, that's why. You have a point, though, going for the epic is a bit much, I think if you're excited about a story, write about it, even if it's a small scene or short story inspired by it. At least the epic gets some kind of exposure that way rather than dying a death as an unfinished manuscript.
I dont not agree with you, but wasn't Pat Rothfuss first book Name of the Wind? Harry Potter was jk rowlings' first book. Im 20k words into my first book and i have it all planned out with a gameplan for my next 2 books. I have 2 protagonists. Its what im passionate about and I personally hate short stories. One book stories always feel rushed and incomplete to me. Granted im not spending years world building. Im actually world building as I go.
I'm not saying that, I'm saying write what you love. I'm not going to write a dumbass short story just to practice. All it's going to do is turn me off from writing and I'll never end up writing what I want. I also didn't say I disagreed with you, I'm just saying there's lots of exceptions and for some reason those exceptions tend be be the most popular.
Quick question: on "Pick a Masterwork" Should I choose a book I consider the 10th best story I've ever know, even though the 1st best story I ever know is from a videogame that was not converted in a book at all?
I'm 15 months into writing ten trilogies that would take approximately 32 years to finish. I probably shouldn't have tried to build a watchtower on the top of Mount Everest by myself...
I jumped into the deap end on my first book Magic At The End Of The World. Based on sales and reads alone, it would suggest I didn't do I a good job of it.
I started a multi- book fantasy series as my first book for 2 reasons. 1 I don't know what I' m doing. 2 it's a 35 year old story that I know, because I created it. But I have learned that I am not a writer. Because I don't have a lesson to teach the world.
My good man, I just BEGAN watchin' yer video and had to laugh at your thinkin' I might advise a would-be mountain-cimber with zero experience to start by climbing just a SMALL mountain. I just stumbled on your site so have no prior impression of you but can see you look, talk, and seem highly capable, and just found that kinda cute (your being SO capable you think "start by claiming a small mountain" good advice for a novice! (Excuse me--now I need to go see what you said after THAT.)
I think this is okay advice, but it is sort of true that writing the first draft gains you a lot of experience, which can be used to edit and rewrite. And so with time and effort you can get your first novel in a good state, even if it is complex. You are going to spend a lot of time doing that though.
Here's the problem with this allegory: a typical novice writer is not really in the same situation as the wannabe climber. Because even if we have not written a book before, we have read LOTS. And yeah, we still have heaps to learn - but we already know heaps, as well, about what works and what doesn't. And the thing about baby steps is that they are BORING. I do not agree, either, with that bit about protagonists. For many a writer, it is the interplay between the characters that is the most important thing, the thing that makes the book come alive. Significant interplay - which is only posssible between protagonists. Hey, you cannot even have a decent romance if you restrict yourself to one!
I mean i I started small it was about two soldiers Wanting to kill each other long after a war, now I'm sitting on 3,000 pages of lore, story, history and ect.
Can confirm. When I first started writing, I decided to pen a ten-volume fantasy series akin to Song of Ice and Fire. I legitimately thought I'd create a fantasy epic my first crack out, and nothing could dissuade me. I spent years -- YEARS -- on the worldbuilding, but only ended up writing about nine chapters of the bloody thing, until I eventually burned out. This was back in 2015. A mentor of mine thankfully told me at the time, "You've got a successful book in you, but this isn't it." Best advice I've ever been given. I went back to basics, learned to hike, as it were, and got my first short story published in 2018. It was 5000 words, and I made $300. Flash forward to now, and my first novel, "Into the Known Universe: A Cosmic Love Story, Kinda" is being released in April 2024. The fantasy epic is currently in a drawer gathering dust. Now, I tell aspiring writers the exact same thing -- start with a short story, learn the craft, and go from there.
You can “learn the craft” just as well working on a novel, as long as you’re willing to rewrite over and over.
Would you feel differently if you completed a 192k word first draft inside of 30 days, nailed most of the characters, created an action packed adventure story with a bad ass ending and built an awesome world?
I just read the sample of your book on Amazon. I saw you not ending dialogue with end quotes. Why? Multiple times? And the mention of a David Lynch film millions of years into the future from now? Doesn't that seem a little, off?
Would you say it's fine to wrote short stories that pertain to your world? I have an epic fantasy world in mind and have been writing short stories to develop the history of the world instead of an entirely new piece.
I feel that first part. Spent years on a project, but it didn't work. Now im thinking of setting a group of short stories like Journals from a historian/ adventurer in my universe.
“It is no less difficult to write a sentence in a recipe than sentences in Moby Dick. So you might as well write Moby Dick.”
― Annie Dillard
These guys from "Story Grid" are a godsend. They are among the very rare people who can tell an aspiring writer what needs to be said, and they are able to say it in a loud, clear voice. Listen to them. Thank you for this video, Tim. Kudos to you. Just let me add a small contribution: limit your writing style to something simple. Do not try to copy James Joyce, Lev Tolstoi or Dante Alighieri. Even the best authors have written great books with a simple, easy-to write, easy-to-read prose.
I can attest to this wisdom. I wrote for eleven years before I got ANYTHING published. At this point, I have nearly 30 books on the market, and sooo glad none of my first attempts were accepted.
What are most of your book word lengths?
I don’t think you need to write for years before publishing… sometimes you can just go for it.
This is honestly very refreshing because I was almost pressuring myself to add new characters or make it more complex
It is worth mentioning that some of the unforgettable classics, such as Earnest Hemminway's The Old Man and The Sea, was 26,531 words and as such, was a novella.
Best advice, I'm impressed. This is one of the best videos I've ever come acrossed.
I’ve gone from researching and getting the plot down to faffing around because the consistent writing bit is so hard! Way harder than I anticipated. This is great motivation, thanks.
Absolutely. Keep at it!
*sobs* I've already broken all your rules....It's been in my mind since I was 19, and picked it back up the last 4 years. Literally it is the only story I have in me (that I know of), the only one I want to write, that I MUST write. Obviously, I've run into a few of the problems you've mentioned, and I still have not been able to force myself to just write the story in a fashion in which I can just go back and edit heavily after. My mind wants me to see the words on the page perfectly as the final product, even though I know that is not even a remote possibility. I'm currently writing small parts into my (fully plotted and I am admittedly more pantser) story in Scrivener as I listen to this, cringing as I learn everything I'm beating myself up over is my fault LOL! I can't quit, this story is my heart. Without something else interesting to write, is there some way to use the story I have and compartmentalize it in some way, or perhaps write the plots separately as single storylines, and interweave them after when I have more experience? It is very difficult for me to change at all, and now I'm past the halfway point of my life. Multiple people have read what I have done so far, co-workers, honest friends, and a few further removed, the reviews are mostly positive so I feel I am tentatively on the 'right track'. I cannot reiterate how important this story is for me to get out, to share with the world before I pass on.
Keep in mind this guy hasn't written all that much himself outside of pushing his own brand of writing advice, so I would suggest taking everything he says with a (very heavy) grain of salt. The question for you is not whether or not you should set down this story you have stuck in your mind but rather how to get it done. To that end, it might be worth it to try crafting a few unrelated stories just to help learn how it is done and how you yourself operate as a writer. The mere act of getting something done can be a huge confidence boost if nothing else, and that's something you'll need for the long haul.
May I suggest writing the backstories of your characters out as standalone short stories? This helps you practice the mechanics, gives you a better grip of the world you're writing in (an keeps your mind in that world instead of distracting it with others) , fleshes out the background characters, and provides fuel for the main plot when you back to your big project. Think of it as the Hobbit -or Silmarillion, depending on how deep you decide to go- to your Lord of the Rings.
@@Nizzet @JasonGorton I guess in a few ways I think he's partially right...I've taken a long time and 170K words into a book that isn't finished, but I have plotted it out from beginning to end now, and feel that continuing on and writing it all out will be much better. I'd really rather write it all out and then decide if it's more than one book, or if things need cut out, I'll have a better idea of where to do so. I definitely don't agree with his hard stance on 'read a lot, write a lot'. You need to read stories you enjoy to understand how a good story is put together on the page, not as well from instructions on how to do so. Reading from a writer's point of view, seeing the pillars holding the story together, you won't get that experience from an instructional video no matter how good it is. You will write a lot! No matter if you follow instructions or not you will write, and you will make mistakes, fix them, and you will find your voice doing it. Now should you just keep writing to infinity without evaluating your prose? Of course not. You work on it and improve and then apply what you've learned, but YOU WILL WRITE A LOT if you're serious about writing. I don't hold myself to a word count when I sit down to write, but I have good days and bad days...Anyway, I thank you for your pep talk, I really needed it.
@@hawkwolf Yeah man, keep going. They both said what I was going to say. I'm almost finished with my first novel, its got two protagonists, Its also around 100,000 words. IT sounds like you're on the right track. The man might be passionate about his advice but how much has he actually written? Anyway you've got good advice from these comments. Good luck!
Just put it on the back burner and make other shorter stories.
I completely agree with this advice. The hosts of the Story Nerd podcast give the same advice (I think they're both Story Grid certified), which is what led me to change my plans for my first novel to be single protagonist, linear timeline. Your other advice aligns (mostly) with what I'm doing. I'm old enough that I definitely don't want to take 12 years to write this book.
On Mount Everest, you can fall to your death or see your toes freeze off. When you try too much too soon in writing, nothing like this happens. You may totally mess up, learn from it and do it better next time.
I think the most important thing is to get started, so you need that story idea you really want to write. If that's a complicated plot with seven protagonists in a world only you are able to understand yet, so be it. Trying to limit it may lead to a story idea that's not what you have in mind, like writing a school essay.
When I decided to write a book, I had that idea with a dozen POV characters in multiple factions, several plot twists, face/heel turns, etc. It took quite long to even come to a finish a first draft. And there are so many things to do, like reducing the cast of POV's.
In the process, getting in contact with other amateur writers, I wrote a short story based on a prompt. That worked fine and gave me some confidence to continue the long one.
Halfway through the first draft of my novel and I have to say, you guys are spot on with good coherent advice. Definetely earned a sub from me and I'll be recommending your videos to all writers I know. Thanks!!
I like learning is small chunks and small labs, if you will. I create a lab to learn some aspect that is of interest to me and I set aside time where I can focus on that. I think a 3000 word short story is ideal for "lab work" and I consider a 30,000 word novella of a nice length also.
I can't say I'm necessarily 'resisting' this advice...I think it's great advice, and I've actually done a lot of what you're talking about. I've discovered that I struggle with 'simple', though, and my writing really shines when the story is complex.
I did, too. My task is to take all those complex ideas and simplify them to their most concentrated state. What matters most in this idea? How do I execute it tactfully? Sometimes, I have to drop ideas because I can't find room for them in the story, but I feel like it's overall rewarding.
Someone did a head count of George R.R. Martin's characters. The total? 2,017. That is not a year, that is how many different characters he wrote-so far, just in the current series he's still writing.
That does not invalidate Tim's advice, I just found it interesting. And I believe Tim's advice is all great. But there is something that budding writers should be aware of:
One protagonist, fictionalized 'you', first person-those are great ideas for a first-timer (or a many-timer), and if you choose those, they will serve you all the way through.
Keep it short, limit characters, narrow the world-also great starting advice. But a writer should not be that surprised if the focus there might change over time, regardless what their first intentions might have been. A story seems to often go where it wants, and often, once you know and can inhabit your characters, they will actually tell you what happens next. Additional characters may just appear out of necessity for the story. And a story will end up being as long or short as it needs to be.
Of course, the role of the writer in regards to all that is to keep things corralled within reason, and keeping Tim's advice in mind is part of how to do that, but sometimes these things organically change bc the story demands them. They will be surprises you were likely not counting on.
I can't discount the advice, it's all good. But it is also important to listen to what the story wants from you, and sometimes it might eventually want to exceed those three restrictions. If the story presents a legit argument, like a defense attorney to a judge, it's worth considering allowing the story to go where it should. I would imagine Sand and Sea might have evolved in this sort of way.
But you also should understand that the little mountain you are climbing might be more like Mt. Everest than you might have expected. And that your story will be, as Tim says, 'exponentially harder' to write well, and will likely take a lot longer than you expected. You must be able to commit to that. You have to do the due diligence of the hard work necessary, and know that this will be your expected path.
The good news is that if your goal is to be a seasoned mountain climber, if you discover that you are actually climbing Everest, that can teach you a whole lot more than that little mountain can, if you are motivated enough.
I suspect GRRM's character count confirms Tim's advice. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he abandoned A Song of Ice and Fire because it got too big even for him.
@@val_nightlily Me, too. When GoT came on HBO, I took one look at the way it was being presented and gave an emphatic 'No'. I was not about to have to juggle tons of characters as a viewer. That concept shoots the concept of clarity directly in the foot. I happily never saw one frame of that show. I got writing to do!
Readers (and viewers) really are not that fond of authors handing them rock after heavy rock that they are expected to carry in their backpack for the entire journey. Too much quid for the quo.
@@tomlewis4748 I presume you didn't read the books either? Well, you have deprived yourself of learning how to write the very best breakfast descriptions.
My new favorite writing channel!
Tim, that is so simple and at the same time so helpful. I am already keeping my story in one place, having only one antagonist, only one hero, but as a beginner, it´s still a challenge for me to convince myself that this will become a good read at a certain point. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and experience from Germany!
Glad it was helpful!
OK, I am only two minutes into the video and I already agree. I am a newb here. I have had an "Epic" idea as he described, two in fact. The first was conceived in 2010. I am not working on those projects where writing is concerned. A little world building and research only. I am working on a first book meant to be a novella. It is a throw away project simply for practice. It does have promise for a possible sequel or series but that is of no concern for now. If it falls completely flat, I learned something and will move on to another practice project.
I love these tips. It's easy to get carried away with exciting ideas, but I'm interested in just writing the thing in its most simple form to start. Binge watching your videos lately -- keep up the great work, we appreciate it. 💫
Please blink
😂🎉
7:03 😂
Didn't even notice. O_O
At least he has jump cuts inbetween takes and isn't a true lizard like Zuckerberg.
😂😂Very creepy
TMC. Too much coffee
Using the "Master Work" as a "model" is what is amazing about the Story Grid. Grid It Out!!! Think about all those hit song-writers out there, they do the same exact thing - it's an ultra-short "story grid" and there are plenty of "hits" that are considered formulaic - they are but they work just like the story grid does.
Thankfully I found this video. I was literally in the process of falling into the exact trap you described. Obviously need to research specific areas for science part of sci-fi, but I don't need to know as much as I think. Great advice, and it was much needed!
Somebody had to say it!
I have written around four short stories recently and entered writing contests. I haven't had luck in most of them, but reading the winning stories, I'm only barely beginning to understand what I'm doing wrong and how I can fix it to get better. It's so true that you need to start small.
My big novel is currently safely shelved and waiting to be published someday, but I totally plan on writing more novels in the meantime, no longer than 40.000 words each.😊
I'm in the same boat. My first book idea started to feel too big, so I've put it away and am now looking at short story ideas and basic one off adventures.😅
Those would be considered novellas then. A novel has at least 40k words
Thank you for this. I actually have spent the last 10 years worldbuilding a world with 9 different eras, so that any story I might want to tell, can be told within the same world/universe. I also just published my first novel ("Whispers of the Wind: A Torcorvion Tale") and so far its been met with positive reception.
However - i myself am extremely underwhelmed with every single page out of the 450+ that are in that book. I already have the next novels i want to write outlined, and the STORIES are good. Its the actual writing of them that i cant seem to do.
Then again, i have spent the last 20 years focused on hip hop. I was once nominated as one of the best young fiction writers in my state, and now im getting back into what made me start writing - but I'm super disappointed with everything i write.
But, i am so thankful to have stumbled across this channel.
Youre absolutely right. I should not have written Whispers of the Wind as my first novel. I should have gone back to the basics.
However - theres no changing the past. Going forward, i am scaling way back. Im going to be writing storytelling poems, ballads, odes, and short stories. Still set in Torcorvion, but I think youre right, that I need to go back and re-learn to hike.
Thank you for these videos
Also, having a small realistic project finished and actually shipped would give a considerable boost to self confidence. So, it is important to have this first win, albeight small, to get confidence boost for a bigger project.
This is the video that best portrays newbies. You know what you're talking about and you've totally portrayed me. I've been developing "ultimate software" for writing my first novel for over 15 years (better than Scribener or Manuskript, of course because it's mine)... and I haven't written a word yet. What I had planned was a mix of Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings with some Dark Tower...
You've brought me back down to earth. Thank you so much.
The thing is, you want to have fun writing. IDC about it being good, I'm just having fun. Already wrote 70k (by the plan there's about 100k to go) and for me, 2 hours of that a day is better than tv. The complexity is what make it fun.
Interesting perspective on first person. I always thought of third person at the more natural storytelling voice: i.e. relating the story of someone else. But I can see how modern storytelling has shifted to being about ourselves.
Love your message. Writing isn’t hard it’s just complex but people assume complex means many and a lot so that makes sense that translates to many POVs and characters.
Sound advice 🙌🏼 Thank you Tim!
#StoryGrid Great advice!
Now, MY stumbling block as a Newbie is that I started with one idea which is not a novel but more, self help. Based on my own personal experience but then I starting thinking that "Maybe it can/should be about.. THIS instead?"
I'm happy with starting with even a BOOKLET. Too many topics/ideas and feeling like I'm straying from one great idea to - I think, overthinking! haha
I want easy reads and speaking TO, not at readers.
I did the exact opposite of what you said and my first novel has been stuck since 14 years ago !🤣🤣🤣 As in this Nanowrimo 2023, I did what you said before I discover this video, I got a much simpler and funny version of it done in only a few days ! 😆😆😆
Thank you for these great advices. Actually, these are the greatest advice I had as a new writer. Now, I can say that I am ready to write. THANKS A LOT!
Making a second note: Do you know if the spreadsheet for the Trinity seminar will be released soon? Or even if that is a possibility? I have found the information highly informative and I particularly like spreadsheets an math formulas. Just don't tell anyone.
I’m writing an urban fantasy murder mystery. I’m struggling so much because I had to rewrite fix and establish characters and my stress level was unbelievable high. But listening to you, you have a point. I’m by all means not a good writing, hell I’m not even a decent writer but I can improve myself by practicing. So when you said start small I literally went, “OH! That’s a good idea!” So I have a list of characters I want to use so why not put in murder mystery short stories. Like a tv show! 😊 thank you for your advice
These are things I discovered painfully over time.
Story Grid gave me a language and a heuristic to test where I was focusing my creative impulses.
As soon as I finish the revision of my WIP (using Narrative Path and Story grid tools), I'm hoping to do a round of the 1-on-1 mentorship with story grid without this current project floating in the back of my mind. I want to finish the WIP to the best of my current skills before shifting towards intentional skills-based practice.
Thanks so much! If you have a few minutes, can you give a testimonial for Story Grid here: testimonial.to/story-grid-homepage
Thank you for your video! I am writing my first novel at the moment, still in the editing phase, It's like a small mountain climbing for me hoping to climb Mountain Everest in the future! ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Really great advice for the writers to be! Great to find this video! There is so much advice on YT, people talk and talk, and all this makes the listener even more confused. There is nothing as complicated as a writing long, complex story. Even a short, simple story is not easy to craft! After all, practice is all you need.
That's great advice, which I probably won't follow exactly. Context - I've done the 20 years building a complex fantasy world and in the process I've written several short stories whilst building the backstory. I'm also over half-way through writing the novel. What I'm doing instead is limiting scope, I'm aiming for around 80,000 words max and I've limited the characters to those that will actually be involved in the story, it gives me depths to draw on if necessary. I am writing in first person who is a fictional me and one of my rules has become only to describe the world as my characters come into contact with it, including facts they have "always" known. The world only exists as a container for my protagonists emotional and personal journey, that simplifies things. They haven't come face-to-face with any magic yet and probably won't understand it when they do. I'm currently writing a short story about the final antagonist and then I need to get clear about the final confrontation. Once I've done that I think the story will more or less write itself, or at least the characters will. So yeah, I am listening, but adapting it to my needs.
I resist two aspects, the first is that I am not interested in a fictionalised version of me, that is how Mary Sue characters get made. And the other is about writing in first person, since the narrative is not about me so I can turn on full gossip mode and just write about the person the story is about. I also think that starting to write in the proposed manner of these two aspects could lead people to develop bad habits, and well, I find fiction in third person is usually more expressive.
I understand your concern about the character turning into a Mary Sue, but I think I understand his point here. Rather than a wish-fulfilment self-insert, instead focus on making the main character something relatable to you and your own life. For example, my MC in my WIP is recovering from trauma because that's what I'm going through in my own life. In this way, writing her is easy.
I also agree with you on third person - I find it much easier to write and more engaging than first person. First always comes off amateurish to me, whether that's a fair judgment or not.
I began using the classic Stephen King formula: asking What if X was scary? My first object was that drink - that one everyone always sees in the western world and ignores, but everyone always buys in Russia - Vodka. Whola. What if Vodka was scary? Now you have a story about 1 protagonist who decides that vodka is scary, and he´s surrounded by a ton of people who are each living their life, but who otherwise happen to worship Vodka. No need for 9 volumes, no need to explain on page 3000 why somebody did not need to eat the dragon, no dragon, no magic system, no ice wall. Just vodka. I showed my friends only the first 30 pages and a few of them said that the flow is ok. That was important because that means the story made sense. Thanks for your video man. Best wishes to you from Reykjavik, Iceland!!
I have a professional crush on Story Grid. This is outstanding advice.
The answer to your question at 1:40 or so is likely because authors like Stephen King and George R R Martin tell new writers that they don't plan, they just sit down and write, and out spills 'The Game of Thrones' or 'The Stand.' No planning needed. Just read a lot and write a lot. Wow! What a concept, just sit down, start writing, do a bit of rewriting, and end up with a great book.
My only resistance is the idea of not developing a full new world. I had a general idea of my concept. I wrote my first chapter and quickly realized I had no idea how to put what I wanted into my story. So I sat down and developed a good synopsis and outline. My next step was to develop each area of the world followed by a good cultural description for each area. Finally, I worked on my characters. In total, I have something like a 32 page document that is all just development. It’s a working document that I’m constantly adding small pieces of information as my story develops. I’m now approximately 20% done with the story writing and so far I’m enjoying it. I had a few friends read the first 3 chapter to see if they would want to continue the story, they had a few items they brought up that I had to think about and work into my writing style, but overall good feedback. I’m hoping to be finished by the end of the year.
I think the reason I struggle to default to smaller stories before writing the book I’m working on is because it feels like abandonment. I’ve had plenty of stories that I wanted to be massive and, like you said, got overwhelming. Each time I try a new story, though, I’m getting further. Of course, I keep eventually running into the problems you’ve mentioned even if it comes later as I gain skill. Anyway, to answer the question of why I fight back internally against the short story argument is simply because I’m too attached to the big stories in my head. Even worse, I feel like if I take the breaks required to work on short stories, I’ll forget what I was doing in my larger work.
I think this is great advice and thrilled that I had already had a couple of these figured out!
Most things you've said I totally agree with. But I don't see making a fictionalized version of myself. I don't find myself all that interesting, everyone I meet is more interesting than me. I also have played tabletop RPGs for decades, and read hundreds of novels. I have lots of models for my characters, other than myself.
I’m grateful!
Wonderful tips!
My problem is that I am overdoing (this is not only with stories but, even with my homework since school time).
This is some of the best advice I’ve got in a long time
This video popped up at a good time. I'm participating in nanowrimo this month and my first project is a scifi epic fantasy. I've been slacking on word count the whole month and losing motivation. My writing needs work and a smaller project would better for me to work on😊.
Complexifying🎉
Thank you for the video
Think of a story as a single stream of water. Sure it may be connected to a vast system of waterways that connect to other larger bodies of water. But if you are going just down that one stream of flowing water then that is the stream that has your focus. Those other streams may at some point intertwine with the stream that you are on, and you can briefly ponder about those streams as they come and go, but you are still just focused on that one stream that you are flowing down on at that very moment.
All stories are like this. Focus only on the one stream. And when you find the end at the large body of water below (lake, ocean, maybe a large river) you can always climb back up to the next stream for your next story.
Happy trails and good luck! :)
I've spent the bulk of my adult life writing 5 novels but I have published none of them. They're all different genres but I'm going to write my 6th novel next week and its yet a different genre. I have never written a sequel but I have plans for a major series sometime soon. But I think its time to move into the editing and publication phase of writing.
EXCELLENT ADVICE!
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent advice. I'm just starting out, so pardon my ignorance. I'm given to understand that 1st person writing is normally associated with hard-boiled detective novels of yester years. This is great for me as those novels are fine for cutting my teeth on. However, to broaden things, I figured I'd try a 1st and 3rd person approach. I hope it works out. Either way, I'm enjoying myself. 😊
What if I'm 51 years old in writing my first book? I don't have 25 years left to get it right.
Do it in 8 years.
Amazing advice 👏
This was very helpful. Thanks Tim.
Lol I'm writing my first book its been 9 months 😅, its one protag yeah but he's supported by like 6 others with a long storied history 😅 maybe I bit off more than I can chew, but I think writing and publishing youtube videos have helped so I decided to write this one. I'm on the final chapter of the book and its one of the hardest things so far, starting and wrapping up the story in a satisfying way
In case you were wondering, somebody else is taking your advice. I caught this video just before NaNo and it's having the desired impact. It's unparalyzing me. Before I retired, I did a lot of the big, complicated work, loved it, and excelled at it. But it wasn't writing fiction. So I need to put the training wheels back on the bike and make things easier for myself.
I started a grand epic fantasy series when I was younger, without any notes, outlines, or anything. Managed to bang out about 300 or so pages before my brain exploded trying to hold all the threads together. Came back to writing around 2014 with the idea of self publishing on Amazon. Made a ton of mistakes, and actually created a RUclips channel (not like this one) about the technical side of things writers need to do. My goal was to start with erotica, and work my way up to longer works of "real writing" and it worked out well. Some sold, some didn't, some sold really well, some didn't. I'm still making money every month from books I published back in 2016 (thank you Germans and your weird kinks) and have been able to publish under a different name more mass market novels. Life is good, and I'm happy, but still a little worried about the Germans. This video is great advice, take small steps, and set goals. Self Publishing is totally doable.
Another point about steering clear of novel length in the beginning: you won't have a completed, polished manuscript for several years. At least. That's assuming it's coherent and you finished the first draft straight away.
Ooh, I wouldn't encourage folks to write their first book in first person. It "looks" easy, but it's so much more demanding than close third. The "naturalness" is deceptive.
First, to answer your question: Everyone wants to write a 9-part epic fantasy because it's awesome! (And kind of in vogue right now.)
Second, this is great advice and can be applied across any skill. Start simple, build a good foundation, and go from there.
However... I was one of these people, and here's a possible counter argument: I went to school for business, so I basically learned theory for 23 years before applying any real skills. I learn best by doing, and since I have a fulltime business, writing is a hobby. I wanted to write what I wanted to write, and I've been reading epic fantasy since I was a kid. One of my fears in life is being one of those people who's always TALKING about what they're going to do, and I'd rather be DOING. So I just started writing. I wrote my first book in a year, and I've been editing it for multiple years now, but it's like a case study in learning how to write. I've been learning the craft and applying it to my work. At this point, I actually feel like I've got some of this story stuff figured out and I'll be able to tell a fine, EPIC, only 4-book fantasy series. But I have no delusions that it will be the next GoT =)
In case any newbie writer is curious, here are the specifics of my blunder into writing: 1) I have 1 MC, and the only other real protagonist is his love interest. 2) I'm too in love with 3rd person POV CLOSE (in the reader's head). 3) My novel came out to about 130K words--and I have cut and rewritten ~50K of that probably. 4) I worked hard to ensure characters overlap and are more interesting rather than adding more characters. I have 5-10 really important characters. 5) The first book has 1 main source of antagonism and it's an old white man ;) 6) I broke this one... my world is huge, but I think I do a good job of leaving much in mystery in the first book, so it's not confusing and even enticing. 7) I read a ton of fantasy, so I think have a good base of what works (executing on that is a different story...).
I'm not resisting this advice--I just already violated it! Glad I found this channel, thanks for the great video! But like I said, I'm a DOER, not a TALKER, so I've already written my first book. Maybe I'll be working with you soon to get it published!
I started out in 2016 to write a book. It was going to be a love story, about the dangers and life lessons and be so deep and it'll move people. Couldn't figure out why it wasn't just, you know, writing itself lol. So I thought, maybe practice with another one, till I get better at figuring this out. Started another novel in about 2020. I'm only just now starting to kinda figure out what should be happening next. After watching this, now it's all making sense why I was confused about why it's not just writing itself, why I can't figure it out when they say, "just sit down and write" and I do that, but I don't feel like I'm getting better lol. I wish I knew about this channel and all the information they put out, back in 2016 😅😅😅.
I have in fact, already written a first fantasy, multi-POV draft of a gajillion words and the plot is so much confetti :D
Slowly rewriting, but now I have a second smaller main project aimed to be 21 chapters. Much more manageable and a great learning experience!
Holly Molly! I'm one of those taking courses forever because "I need to learn more" before actually sitting down and get writing ... 😶🌫
I was gonna disagree but then I remembered that that is exactly what I did. First a short story, then a novella, and then an 80k novel. I would only recommend not to get stuck writing tons of short stories if your goal is to write a novel. Write one or two and jump to something bigger. It is quite nice to write something over 40k just so that you can say that you wrote a novel. Then you can move on and do some nice work
I REALLY want to write my book and this was great advice. However, the end when you asked “why are you puttiing off writing your book,” it’s quite the oppotiste for me. I get too carried away in this imaginary world of characters, magic, and technology, and I have to slow down and do the research, learn, and take advice first. I’ve always tried to make little stories and that was the problem: no real thought for the plot or endgame. I already wrote 3 pages and feeling myself rush, but I know it’s going to take time and I’m more than likely going to delete most of it. I want it to feel right and go in with the correct knowledge and wisdom than to write impulsively and make it as I go.
I recognised this problem and decided to write a simple novel as a way of easing myself into the huge, sweeping sci-fi/fantasy series. I even chose a child for my protagonist (a child with some of my own characteristics) to keep things simple and constrained. A larger story is hinted at but the plot never leaves the child's neighbourhood. The problem I now have is staying focused on that short, simple novel. Even when much of the epic has been left on the bench, set aside for future novels, I find myself tempted to complicate the story and add subplots concerning the child's parents, neighbours, and friends. Writing a "simple" novel is actually very hard. I have to force myself to NOT think about the epic story, easier said than done for a daydreamer who likes to live in their head.
Happily, I've found a masterwork to work with. Charlotte's Web. A short, deceptively simple novel that involves many of the author's thoughts on things like death, justice, and the significance of religion. It couldn't be a more perfect companion to the kind of story I want to write. So thanks for that tip! Here's to getting "Neighbourhood Witch Alliance" finished!
I managed to cut down my story to 3 viewpoint characters, but it's still a sprawling epic space opera with worldbuilding and believable technology. The reason I know it's right for me is because I'm almost finished with the first draft!
1:54 yea I’m guilty of this as I was planning on having gods of the Omniverse and one gives some power to someone for they would go out causing chaos I didn’t even have a plot I was just doing what ever came to my mind and I didn’t get far not even having the character enter another universe unless you count the void
I'm basically breaking all the rules, lol. I have written some comics before, and a few short stories, but this is my first novel. It has three protagonists (or arguably two protagonists and one perspective antagonist). While it's not on the level of a song of ice and fire, there are many many characters. It has an expansive fantasy world (although I was quite lazy/efficient with the world building compared to other meticulous writers. I basically took early iron age middle east, infused it with some aztec and mayan human sacrifice and some inca traditions, made everyone monkeys and then logiced it out so everything will make sense.) And while originally it meant to be one novel, it will split into three parts.
The first book's draft is almost finished, currently at 135k words (I'm doing my best to keep it short, I promise 😂).
I'm having a lot of fun writing it, to be honest, and I do intend on trying to publish this first book of mine, even if it's unlikely.
I wanna take a break from the book after I finish the first draft, before I start to edit it. Perhaps I'll write a short story (I already came up with a concept)
So yeah, I respectfully decline your advice ;)
Why are new authors so over ambitious? I think I know. It is because of advice from publishers and editors on sites like this. Basically what they are telling authors is that publishers are not interested in publishing any novel shorter than 80,000 preferably 100,000 words. It seems to me as if books are sold by weight nowadays. My first novel, as yet unfinished, was shaping up to be a 200+ page book, okay in the days of Evelyn Waugh or someone, but apparently not now. Having seen the consistent advice from so many publishers that a novel has to be at least 80,000 words to even be considered for publication really discouraged me and my project is still lying in limbo. Of course if new authors are targeting 120,000 words they might start with a lot of characters to generate enough sub-plots and combinations to sustain this kind of length.
I have this sci-fi trilogy in my head. But I realized it's going to be difficult, so I'm first doing a small HFY Sci-fi story, after that I'll go for a novella and take it from there
Great advice!
Make it simple.
Start small period.
I am trying to write episodically that way it's easier to write a novel. 😅
Another thing I've seen professional writers do is write a successful short story - and then later on (maybe many years later) turn that short story into a novel.
I've seen this in two different ways: The author rewrites the original story, but expands it greatly. (2) The author uses the short story as a chapter in the novel that tells much more of the story, editing the original only as appropriate to make it fit as a chapter in the larger story.
Back in the old days (as in, several decades ago), it was not uncommon for novel-length stories to be serialized.
Don’t necessarily agree with this. The “start from the bottom and work your way up to the top” works for most because it’s been hammered into our brains since childhood. But saying it’s impossible to reverse that course by “starting at the top” isn’t some golden rule that needs to be fallowed or it results in failure.
One word, fear. I guarantee you that if your life depended on getting yourself up that Mt. Everest, you’re not going to say “Oh, I guess I’ll just die then because I’m not a skilled mountain climber.” If you’re not a trained actor and Tarantino or Spielberg came to you and said, “Looks wise, you are perfect for a role in a film I’ll be working on. Would you like to audition for the role?” Will you tell that famous director “I’ve never acted before so I have to respectfully decline.” Or will you acknowledge this potentially life changing opportunity that the majority of trained actors probably will never get by saying “I’m honored for this opportunity and I’ll give you 100%, despite having no skills.”
There are obvious things you can’t just jump into because they do require A LOT of training or you could be severely injured or die…like gymnastics or Formula One racing, or building a sky scraper, or becoming a surgeon. But, we’re talking about ART, which lives predominantly in the world of the subjective. There are masterful writers who have moderate success and there a mediocre writers that are multi time NYT best sellers who’ve sold millions of copies world wide.
You just have to acknowledge that the massive story your writing as your first project will demand a whole lot more from you. Saying to yourself that this project is the only project that matters to me right now. I’m going to learn as much as I can, through knowledge and observation, and my learning through experience will be this massive project. Well, ok then, no excuses. Stakes are extremely high. Get to work and get it done.
The point is, to get from where you are to a mile away takes taking one step at a time. Simple. Sounds like you just want to be contrary for the sake of it.
Yeah, the small mountain to climb is definitely arrange your work logically in folders. Do your research. Then start writing.
It's way too late for me to take this advice. Thanks tho
All of my characters are me. Except one, but she’s partially me also.
I get what you're saying, and it's totally right, but what is wrong with having a little ambition? And why does it annoy you to the point of cussing the F word if ambitious newbies decide to run before they can walk?
Well, just to be clear, it doesn't take much for me to use the F word. But also, I care deeply about this subject and writers and helping them reach their goals so it's easy for me to get worked up about it.
- Tim
Why the f*#&*$%? am I writing the epic you ask. Cause that epic is in my head, no other story, just this one, that's why.
You have a point, though, going for the epic is a bit much, I think if you're excited about a story, write about it, even if it's a small scene or short story inspired by it. At least the epic gets some kind of exposure that way rather than dying a death as an unfinished manuscript.
For what it’s worth, I support you in thinking big.
I dont not agree with you, but wasn't Pat Rothfuss first book Name of the Wind? Harry Potter was jk rowlings' first book. Im 20k words into my first book and i have it all planned out with a gameplan for my next 2 books. I have 2 protagonists. Its what im passionate about and I personally hate short stories. One book stories always feel rushed and incomplete to me. Granted im not spending years world building. Im actually world building as I go.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
- Tim
I'm not saying that, I'm saying write what you love. I'm not going to write a dumbass short story just to practice. All it's going to do is turn me off from writing and I'll never end up writing what I want. I also didn't say I disagreed with you, I'm just saying there's lots of exceptions and for some reason those exceptions tend be be the most popular.
4:40 self insert for the win!
Quick question: on "Pick a Masterwork" Should I choose a book I consider the 10th best story I've ever know, even though the 1st best story I ever know is from a videogame that was not converted in a book at all?
I'm 15 months into writing ten trilogies that would take approximately 32 years to finish. I probably shouldn't have tried to build a watchtower on the top of Mount Everest by myself...
I jumped into the deap end on my first book Magic At The End Of The World. Based on sales and reads alone, it would suggest I didn't do I a good job of it.
I started a multi- book fantasy series as my first book for 2 reasons. 1 I don't know what I' m doing. 2 it's a 35 year old story that I know, because I created it. But I have learned that I am not a writer. Because I don't have a lesson to teach the world.
This advice goes against the fact that authors are mainly judged on their debut novel. What are your thoughts with that in mind?
My good man, I just BEGAN watchin' yer video and had to laugh at your thinkin' I might advise a would-be mountain-cimber with zero experience to start by climbing just a SMALL mountain. I just stumbled on your site so have no prior impression of you but can see you look, talk, and seem highly capable, and just found that kinda cute (your being SO capable you think "start by claiming a small mountain" good advice for a novice! (Excuse me--now I need to go see what you said after THAT.)
I think this is okay advice, but it is sort of true that writing the first draft gains you a lot of experience, which can be used to edit and rewrite. And so with time and effort you can get your first novel in a good state, even if it is complex. You are going to spend a lot of time doing that though.
Here's the problem with this allegory: a typical novice writer is not really in the same situation as the wannabe climber. Because even if we have not written a book before, we have read LOTS. And yeah, we still have heaps to learn - but we already know heaps, as well, about what works and what doesn't. And the thing about baby steps is that they are BORING. I do not agree, either, with that bit about protagonists. For many a writer, it is the interplay between the characters that is the most important thing, the thing that makes the book come alive. Significant interplay - which is only posssible between protagonists. Hey, you cannot even have a decent romance if you restrict yourself to one!
Does it count if I have written many fan fics?
OMG 😳 you are right😂
I mean i I started small it was about two soldiers Wanting to kill each other long after a war, now I'm sitting on 3,000 pages of lore, story, history and ect.
You’re totally calling me out.