Holy shit!! NO, he’s not entitled to her body or to sex, he’s entitled to an honest, totally unambiguous statement or answer to his questions and advances. When he says, “Oh, second date? If I pour another glass of wine will that count?” And the very next line of the article is, “and then he was pouring me another glass,” every adult reading should go, woah, how did he say something so suggestive to this master of signals and innuendo and somehow she missed the chance to say, “no, it wouldn’t count.” Like what the actual fuck?
I think... she is in denial. shes trying to be daring and explorative perhaps in things but resists it at the same time. To put it in to a common point of comparison, like in the harry potter books, where the teacher basically compels Harry to jump onto the desk and Harry is supposed to use his will power to repel the compulsion. Harry does it half way, and topples over the desk, not jumping nigh enough but not staying flat on the ground either. The teacher looks at him, and congratulates him for not jumping on the desk, that he showed the will to at least try to resist. (that part doesnt matter to this, im not saying anyone is compeling her, I am saying she is trying to achieve two very different things in the same motion and its causing her to crash over the furniture so to speak each time.)
But yes... straight forward yes or no. It was literally one of the most important lessons in school in the 90s. Just say no. it fits lots of things.. except taxes :s As i said elsewhere on this page, someone should make all the zoomers watch every film ever made in america to get a understanding of the past generations and what was idealized, and how people used to communicate and handle each other. It might actually even them out and help them to understand the world and other people better.
This entire argument about the analogies could have been easily stopped by "She did not say no. If Aziz grabbed the condom, and she instead said 'I am not comfortable having sex after our first date.' this no longer sends mixed signals, but also keeps interest intact for a next time if they choose to have one." It's extremely frustrating when Destiny is trying to argue that both parties need to be more straightforward in communication and Farha cannot understand why what she said is not clear communication.
Yeah not gonna lie its kinda bizzare. I cant tell if its a maturity or informtion thing. I can understand a younger woman not getting this, but it seems as though there are a growing number of women who dont understand what is unclear of what THEY are doing or saying. I feel like its getting to be so bizzare how we talk about consent and communication but there arent any real discussions about what men take as signals. My grandparents generation would have seen you sleeping at a guys house over night as a sign you had sex, or even wearing something revealing gave a different message. Now it seems like women are told almost no behavior short of saying she wants sex indicates sexual interest. Even in my time if a man invites you to back to his place after a date, that signaled something. I wonder if by taking away these signals weve unintentionally taken away a societal understanding for women how to view behaviors and communicate, putting them in th eworse situation where they have no clue how to signal and men have no clue what the signal is without verbal contracts.
It all boils down to respecting boundaries a lot of people have issues with that. Unfortunately, we don't live in a society where everyone has a pure heart. People know and are very aware of what they're doing but choose to push other boundaries which makes its dangerous if he or she is not assertive enough.
I agree. But I also know that sometimes girls say the word NO and guys still somehow misread it. Like they think they just have to try harder to get the girl in the mood or something.
I love how at 57:50 she complains about men needing emotional babysitting, but at no point does she realize she's arguing in favor of emotionally babysitting women who can't simply give a clear yes/no when a guy advances on them.
It's also typical shaming men for emotions. Essentially calling them childish. Reverse the genders and she never would used the same phraseology. In her mind we have to validate women's emotions whilst having ours dismissed outright
Exactly and If a woman is giving me head and hasn't said no at all , also accepted oral already without pushing the guy away i think were pretty far into intercorse already one of the main points of a blow job is readying the man for intercorse in the first place its not just for pleasure purely. If im getting a BJ in my head i have green lights cant this woman understand this? This is why clear communication means alot. This guy probably just thought he wasn't wooing her well which is why he switched it up and tried some other things obviously akwardly but the woman still didnt say no instead she gave him a BJ. These people assume that humans are not animals and because we are animals with a physical body that does not always purely listen to logic but has instincts and pherimones and chemicals and all these other things shit gets very primal once you take things so far if all she was gonna do is a BJ she should have just finished the guy lol.
It's not really that hard if you are the advancer, male or female. The person you flirt with WILL show interest or some form of reciprocation within a week. If they are not, then very simply they are not interested or better yet can not even entertain that possibility. Waiting on a yes/no on an "advance" instead of being adult enough and just asking straight out is pathetic regarless anyways.
@@yeahaight5483 Right, like if it has to be a question or (as a big ass adult) you have to stress about it then it’s maybe not gonna go your way, I dont know any female where it isn’t oblivious they dont want you. Or ask, I’m like imagine meeting someone and the first thing you say is “Nice to meet you so just an FYI I don’t want to fuck you,” but I’m not and have never been apart of hookup culture so maybe I just dont know
Funny how she expects men to have perfect reading of a womans state of mind based on the most nuanced expressions, like "lets chill", while having absolutely no understanding what so ever of how men think and act.
I feel like she’s arguing that Mens interactions with women should be inclusive In regards to their experiences and yet womens interactions with men should be neutral and men’s experiences are not valid
@@sleepingtom9337 yeah all good it’s just seemed to me that when it comes to womens experiences with men gender matters (gender inclusive) and yet when it comes to mens experiences with women she seems to flip and argue that a man’s gendered experiences suddenly are irrelevant (gender neutral) just my opinion could be I misunderstood
for sure. She couldn't even simply acknowledge that moving your hand away from somebody's dick you just sucked is a confusing type of boundary to set in this scenario. Maybe at the end of the day the entire scenario was sexual assault. but she's trying to fight and die on every tiny hill of this conversation in favor of calling it sexual assault. any good points she may have made got pretty diluted by this. Is she going on fresh 'n fit? if so, they'll rip her to shreds with ease. she'd be her own worst enemy in the conversation.
Is so fucking frustrating how she completely changed what happened and destiny let her. It went from: "we were making out then he stopped said he was going to grab a condom she said wow let's chill for a bit then we started kissing again (no one knows for how long) then he went down on me then I on him". To: "we where kissing and I said let's chill for a bit then he went down on me". This are completely different situations.
Well, yeah... Look at her and if you listen to her, she is completely biased towards women. Thats the typical feminist, "We cannot do wrong because power dynamics" but on the other hand "Men are always wrong even if I act wrong." Thats why I and many think that feminists don't want equality... because they neither preach it nor do they even talk about it. In equality, everyone needs to take agency and responsibility so we can act towards equally.
I think the message is that when in doubt, hold back. If she's not screaming yes, you need to assume no. Men are motivated to hear yes unless she's screaming no, because they're men, and men's desperation always outweighs women's concerns. Women saying a hard no WILL escalate into physical combat and rape in many cases. It is a losing game for women to directly confront men, who are larger and stronger. So a woman is more likely to give a soft no and try to ease out of the situation. It gives us a better chance of making it out alive.
34:00 just to be very clear - she said "let's relax for a second" after he suggested ESCALATING the situation even more. I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret that as not wanting things to go further, but whether that means "stop entirely" or "continue with what we're doing" is absolutely not well communicated.
She spent so long arguing the woman’s point of view that she failed to realize the point of clear boundaries is to cut through the two different perspectives.
@Xavier E Men aren't thinking of it from the girl's perspective. "Women explicitly say ...", but did this specific woman say .... you are blaming women for being indirect and not clearly stating what they want, but then go through an entire list of questions that a guy is too afraid to ask. Your entire inner dialogue shows that you would rather risk raping a girl than risk not having sex. if men don't know what is expected of them, then we need to ask.
@@disobedienttiger6240 you can ask all what you want and probably encourage it but the fact that the man always has to be the one to emotionally babysit the women is retarded and basically go against the whole feminist movement in the first place. If you want something say it its called communication
The fact she can’t even concede that it’s bad for women to friendzone and use guys for emotional “support” or what have you is kind of pathetic, it’s insanely toxic thing a lot of woman do, maybe without even realizing, but when it’s laid out well, as it was here, and she is still running defence for it, that’s pretty sad to watch.
If a person gets used man or woman at some point it's your own stupidity. if i liked a guy and he never makes a move I'm not rushing over to be his support or whatever because I have dignity and respect for myself. It's called self esteem.
@@kaybrown7733 I think the problem is that there usually _is_ a move being made. Girls sometimes continue flirting and have skinship with these guys they friendzone because they genuinely like them and otherwise wouldn't mind being in a relationship but are either paranoid the friendship falls apart if the relationship falls through or usually don't have the self-esteem themselves to be their own emotional anchors and not use people they friendzone as their proverbial teddy bears they cry to when their S.O treats them poorly. This, in turn, strings the guy along because he thinks he has a chance to swoop in and make the save or something. It is pretty toxic.
@@sialiasialis. I would never date a male friend because it always ruins the friendship. I think friends and dating is a bad combo. second if she's not actively trying to date you and you think you can swoop in then that's your stupidity. Stop befriending women that you want to date and just be upfront about your intentions. A lot of this is just good sense that people seem not to have.
I hate how so much emphasis is put on the man having to read queues and take hints when sometimes those same queues coming from a different person in a different situation could mean the opposite. For some people, in any given situation (not just sexual), showing signs of being nervous or hesitant could mean they really do not want to do that thing, for other people it could mean they do want to do that thing but need someone to take the lead or need time to handle something first. I’m sure everyone has experienced both sides of that coin at different times and it would be ridiculous to assume that someone, maybe someone you’ve just met, maybe someone you’ve just met while both being intoxicated, could tell the difference between them, and that is assuming they can read that nervousness at all. This would be especially true if many of your prior actions up to that point indicated that you are interested in doing whatever that thing is, or you explicitly voiced interested in doing it. People are super hesitant to apply any higher standard to a woman’s behaviour in any of these situations because they are normally the victim but the important thing, assuming we actually care, should be teaching people to behave in a way that reduces the chances of anything like this happening, and that absolutely includes how both parties conduct themselves, not just the man. It shouldn’t be rare when reading these cases that a woman gives a clear yes or no answer to a question surrounding sex, it certainly shouldn’t be common that they are told or believe that vague signals, that are clearly open to being read incorrectly, are a substitute for clear communication. It is crazy to hear some of these people talk like a woman’s brain is just completely worthless when sex is involved so the man has to carry the full burden of both of their thoughts and feelings at all times, it’s so pathetic
If a young lady, woman, or whatever is not comfortable enough to not be super-nervous about sex, then they should be left alone. Have sex with someone else. The risk isn't worth it.
I understand what you are saying and agree that signals can be different for different people. My wife, in fact, would rather me make a move then verbally ask But I make sure I know exactly what the situation is anyway because she still confuses me sometimes. That being said, think through the consequences of ignoring the signals of the girl who is being vague or wants you to push things but won't actually say it. No one is being hurt in the situation where you misread her "signals" and move on. I think the responsibility would be on her to change her signals if she wants a sexual relationship. In short, I think people should only move forward with sexual activities when the signals are clear. It might be awkward for people who aren't good at communicating their desires but it beats the alternative.
@@ianwhite5471 The problem with this idea is it’s all well and good in theory, but with the way existing social norms work, it would essentially erase 85% of a man’s possible perfectly consenting sexual partners who do want to get freaky, but just can’t express it well… kind of an easy ask for the people who aren’t single or minority of women who are very good at communicating desire/setting boundaries. Realistically, you tell a single inexperienced guy this, he has to learn the hard way that it’s bad advice (say he doesn’t make a move and gets an upset text later from the girl/ she goes around telling people he’s gay), and so he overcorrects and actually does start acting too pushy. It’s kind of like how D.A.R.E and extreme anti drug rhetoric caused a backlash with kids who grew up hearing bullshit about weed and other less harmful substances being addictive, tried it and realized it wasn’t, so started doing harder stuff figuring they were unfairly demonized as well…
I am an actual idiot. I've been watching these videos thinking this is Mia Khalifa with a name change, thinking the 'virgin' comments was a comedy bit.
This girl would hear someone say "I'm going to slip into something more comfortable." and argue that all they implied was that they just want to put on sweatpants.
as a woman I agree 100% with destiny -- having to listen to farha argument back was making my brain bleed out...like how can you not understand a straight forward argument?!
It’s because she lacks the ability to be accountable in public. She feels she would look weak which as a man I do not understand. Men see emotional and social intelligence in other men when they can hold themselves accountable. The same goes with women. It’s a basic trait of a decent human.
@@toshoshi1551 I don't get her at all. Destiny is 100% right if you're just forward there would be no issue. I went out of town with some friends and we ended up meeting a couple women who joined us as we were going bar to bar. To save money it was 5 of us in a hotel room I hit it off with one of the women. She said if you don't want to sleep in a cramped room you can stay with me but nothing more than cuddling would happen. I said sounds 1000 times better than sleeping on a chair and we went to her room. Zero issue we got breakfast in the morning and it was a pleasant interaction. Whatever that was that Destiny read sounds like trying to pogo stick through a mine field while being fired upon by a sniper.
@@molkereis8626 But that is what modern dating in certain circles is. If as man date someone out of that circle then be prepared to walk it. If you arent then dont try to fuck such women. If you date women that are Infantil then dont treat them as equal. If she isnt clear in her communication then that is a huge red flag and you shouldnt get your dick out. That is what being a responsible adult and a respectable men means. As a real men you 1. wouldnt have been in the situation he was in and 2. Would have stopped when she said: "Wow lets slow down"
From the conversation around 12:35, I've learned that I am a certified Intellectual Copist. Thanks to this woman and Farha for guiding along such a great convo.
I don’t know how Destiny manages to interact with so many people that can’t understand straightforward points or arguments without a breakdown that makes him sound like he’s speaking to a 10 year old. Edit: This comment got a lot of upvotes. I’m going to add a dimension of commentary on the topic itself - that a lot of women in these sticky situations might be bad actors AKA they want to have their cake and eat it, too. I understand that these lukewarm sexual engagements are really common on Tinder and in college, but what I’m about to describe also seems pretty common. It’s like the female equivalent of a f*** boy. Drag young guys around, knowing that they have sexual or emotional interest, and then cut them off or blast them for unwanted advances, despite sending those mixed signals the entire time. There’s no pushback or repercussion for that behavior, it’s usually flagged away as a man misunderstanding a woman’s interests when in fact it’s plain old emotional manipulation gone awry when the man finally either makes a move or cuts her off as a toxic influence.
Have you ever gone outside? Most people are stupid af. You really don't interact with logical or intelligent ppl on a daily basis unless your job let's you interact with highly educated professionals
Literally her entire argument and pushback is just to avoid simply saying "No I don't feel comfortable with this right now"?! Why is that so hard to say please help me understand this
Well i could give you a vitriolic answer but truthfully the current discussions to consent are basically a woman is afraid a man will hurt her if he says no or do something negative there its mans responsibility to mind read and be in charge but not overtly because shes a woman not a infant even if you have to babysit her. Basically most discussions are men are responsible but not in charge of a women's feelings, his own feelings, the qualify and experience of sex but have no power. Inversely women should have all the power but no requirement to commit for anything short of saying it, even then she doesn't have to commit to even her own words. The sad part is most women in this age group think this.
I feel like many women are playing these "what's the safest way to get out of this" games because of either prior experiences or just general fear. Some people just go with the flow to see how the date goes. The boundary they want to keep may not be something they've concretely set immediately prior to the date. It could be in the moment, "I'm not comfortable with this." You would generally hope/expect the other party to now log this in their brain as a boundary and leave it alone, but that's not always what happens. If a person seems hesitant about something you are doing with/to their body, you should take a step back and ask clarifying questions (get consent). If they don't give a clarifying answer then you don't have consent. You may be confused, but usually, people stop to figure things out when they are confused, not just continue blindly.
I think it is cause many women are thought at a young age to be agreeable & nice. Men are thought to push for s3xual interactions. Recipe for disaster. The "nicer" she tries to reject him is the more he pushes.
@@razzlejazzles the problem with a woman saying "I'm not comfortable with this", is that, it is still unclear why & what she is uncomfortable about, and, most importantly, whether or not I or whoever the guy is in the situation, has the power to change that or not For example they could be making out, the guy tries to take her clothes off and the girl could physically move his hand away and say "Im not comfortable with this", and the guy fully stops and says "OK, what's making you uncomfortable?" And she says something about how she doesnt want to have sex with him if he doesnt truly care about her and have feelings for, that she's not interested in being friends with benefits but that she's interested in being more than that. If the guy then talks about how he feels the same way, and that he isnt just looking to have meaningless sex.. Then after that conversation, they might start making out again and eventually have sex because now she isnt uncomfortable anymore And her answer to being uncomfortable could be completely different and not have anything to do with something that he can change or clarify in that moment. And if that's the case, then that should be made clear. Women attribute men not reading their minds to men being horrible people. I don't think Aziz did anything wrong, up until the point where they go back to the couch fully clothed after she explicitly said no she doesnt want to have sex. After she says no, and they get fully clothed, and go back to couch. Him starting to kiss her again, and trying to undress her again is the wrong thing to do even if she was kissing him back (the article is so poorly written that at many times, they only say what he was doing and not what she was doing. Like, it will say "he kissed" instead of "we kissed" and so its like we as the reader cant tell if that means he's kissing on her neck, arm, body, cheek, etc, or like he's kissing on her lips and she's retracting her neck and head backwards and not kissing him back, or if it means its full on consensual french kissing). And honestly I feel like the interviewer didnt ask those questions, or didnt include it in article, because she knows that more added context like that paints the girl in an even worse light. The crazy thing is, Aziz actually verbally asked for consent many times where most guys wouldnt have. I feel like on that end he was very considerate. She just didnt like him that much, and she should have left his apartment after getting dressed again instead of going to watch seinfeld.
The most charitable explanation I know of is that a lot of women have had seriously bad experiences when they've said "no" to a man, and even those that haven't had those experiences themselves probably know a woman who has, or have just been socialised to expect that to be the case. So I think a woman can get themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place, where they either say no and risk a potentially aggressive or even violent reaction, or they continue doing something they don't feel comfortable with. The real solution imo is that BOTH sides need to: a) communicate more clearly; b) be more aware of where their actions might lead, and make sure they're okay with all of those potential outcomes.
This is absolutely wild to me. The point that seems to be lost is that whatever generalized advice you want to give men and women regarding these interactions needs to be applicable for DRUNK, horny, inexperienced teenagers. It is never going to work if one party is unable to communicate a clear "no".
Honestly, destiny's advice is pretty solid here. I hate to say it but enthusiastic consent and clear boundaries will eliminate a large portion of these incidents, not ALL of them, but that advice, if followed by enough of these people, would make a difference.
Well, the drunk part was always a bad idea when it comes to young acquaintances & sex. These days, drunken sex seems to have lost status compared to my generation's day; that's a good thing, but it's likely a contributor to a decline in overall sexual experiences among young folks.
@@GomulDart Also, the argument of “But he might get mad” is the biggest red herring here. Frankly speaking, if you’re drunk and DONT want to sleep with someone…. YOU DONT GO BACK TO YOUR PLACE WITH THEM AFTER HOURS 😂😂 but let’s be 100% honest…. We all knew that already 😂❤
It is becoming increasingly difficult to defend against the "Destiny brings on dumb egirls he wants to bang knowing they will humiliate themselves" arguments
This is what I’ve learned from this interaction as an agreeable woman- I am not going into any man’s house without feeling like they are someone I feel comfortable being assertive/direct with. I can’t speak for this woman but I know when I’m with someone I’m interested in I have a harder time maintaining my interest in the negotiation. Knowing this I should put up some safeguards for myself so I don’t leave resenting how the interaction went.
@@Macheako Sometimes our psychic abilities are wobbly because of our silly hormones and we don’t always figure out who’s gonna r&m us until you know after. Literally it would be nice if it was just written on yer foreheads. But alas we are test pilot guinea pigs & even when all the signs are good (nice behaviors are amazingly able to be faked) it can go pretty bad. Then in retrospect we are blamed for being in a room with “a guy like that”. Most assaults are by guys the victim knew. Meaning they did all the things necessary to convince her being alone with them was safe. Sure, you may be a “good guy” but how do I know that? Seriously. How do I KNOW that? I don’t. And remember, if you are a decent human you don’t think like a predator. Therefore don’t attribute to a predator your “normal” interpretations of their behavior. They camouflage themselves with plausible deniability. They push boundaries to find weakness. The “smart” answer to your riddle is that we should never be alone in a room with any man. Then we will be safe & not blamed.
@@pebrablue "Sometimes our psychic abilities are wobbly because of our silly hormones" Just wait till you hear the disorienting power of testosterone. It's one helluva hormone!
Ugh... it feels like some of these women genuinely don't want agency in these situations... like a date is like a plane trip, and there is nothing you can do but hope the pilot doesn't kill you.
Bruh, my problem is I've been told let's pump the brakes before and took it as a no, and the woman was pissed at me the next day. She told me she just wanted more foreplay.
God!!!!!!!!!!!! Can women EVERERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR be straight forward? 😂😂😂 Why not say “sex is a little far, but what about…..BJs?” 😂😂😂 Bruh it wasn’t ur fault lol
@1:38:00 ~ I can get Destiny's frustration. He's asking for red light green light, and she's giving nothing but it's always a flashing yellow caution light. Everything can work out perfect, that still means caution yellow light.
This honestly happened to me and it perfectly depicts the severity with which women give mixed signals. I was dating a girl i met on my country's equivalent of tinder. We met up in her place and we already had sex once or twice by the time this happened. She was sitting on top of me and kinda hinted for me to just put my hands on her and gently rub her skin or whatever. Every time i moved towards a more sexual area of her body she pushed my hands away which was weird to me but she also always wanted me to continue touching her by taking my hands and placing them on her again. In the end she told me that she wanted to give me blue balls so hard that, and i quote here " you overpower me and dominate me so i feel r*ped, because thats what sexually gets me going". At that point i knew what i had to do and i tried to be more dominant but i was REALLY disturbed and uncompfortable to the point we ended the whole dating and broke up. I was not able to hurt her so i did absolutely not know how to be dominant without being physically violant. I assume this is absolutely rare . I hope this is ablolutely rare. But the fact that this was one of the only few sexual encounters i had in my life really fucked up my ability to read any signals and interprete them correctly. Like how am i ever supposed to know if someone is suggestive if THAT is a possibility. Note also that this awkward situation continued for waht felt like an eternity to me. She really hoped i would "lose control" but it "gladly?" never happened.
people need to talk about this and it would be fine. Stop trying to read the women, ask clear questions and if you don't know each other it is okay to be more soft than the opposite. Although many women want to get dominated but are to shy to say it. That doesn't mean try it, it means find out trough talking to each other and asking subtile questions that can reveal it. Or don't ask if it would be to direct, just explain a scenario or things you like and look how she reacts.
Lessen the likelihood of getting another crazy woman like that by meeting women in what was considered normal for thousands of years before the internet, social media and dating apps: the real world. Not at nightclubs, not at alcohol and drug infested parties. Consider your workplace, set ups from good friends and family, your local community groups, any place where sex is not the obvious intent as to why people are present in that place.
Don't worry brother, I Have had multiple short relationships, where the girl enjoyed what I would consider abusive signals and invitations of sex. One girl really enjoyed the 'rape' fantasy so much that she considered me tame when I just wanted to enjoy normal sexual relations.
The biggest issue apparent here in why Destiny’s friend can’t argue with him properly is because she is arguing from a hindsight is 20/20 perspective while Destiny is not. She’s leaning on knowing that woman’s state of mind while Destiny is arguing that no one could know her state of mind in the moment, which is valid. Unfortunately Destiny your friend doesn’t seem to be able to divorce herself from the knowledge gifted to her from the woman in the article to understand where your coming from
Exactly. Especially when it was preceded with the dude going to grab a condom. She could have said: "Lets stop." She said "chill". That is definitely ambiguous enough that anybody could be confused. Especially when a simple "No" is on the table. And I hate it when I read things like "All of a sudden my clothes were off" or "Before I knew it, he had removed my clothes". That shit can happen fairly quickly, but it's never instant. If you don't want to have sex, why are you not stopping your clothes from coming off?
And this is how arguing in bad faith is like guys. Something happened, could be for 5-10 reasons, she only acknowledges the 1-2 that favors her point, act like they are super clear and the other ones are super unlikely or dumb. Specially triggers Destiny because he knows that no matter what happens, the dude always will take the hit. Even with his analogy of the dude getting Friendzoned (knowing or not knowing) the dude always takes the hit. She doesn't care, nor she will acknowledge there is malice from the other part "liking the attention". She even calls it "babysitting his feelings" ... good lord.
My grandfather got fleeced by a young woman who got him to pay for her college and cars and shit. There is a lot more to Friendzoning than just "liking the attention."
The friendzoned example was absurd. In both stories the male wanted to F and the female didn't want to. And the females had to be the ones to make the decision ... block friendship/leave apartment. BUT Destiny said the man in the hypothetical represented the female in the Aziz story... that's just illogical.
@@deach5254 Yes, so do you also believe that "relax and chill means no and stop?" Must've be a new definition since no dictionary has updated their definitions.
@@deach5254 They are not at all the same. In the first situation the guy just wants to smash and in success he is getting what he wants from her at a cost to her if she isn't actually wanting it and due to her lack of boundaries he got it. In the second case the guy wants a romantic relationship not just sex and she wants emotional labour from him and she is getting what she wants at cost to him since he doesn't actually want to be "just friends" so she is taking advantage of his lack of boundaries. The analogy really isn't that hard, but I guess just like her there are plenty of people that can't understand even simple analogies. Either that or they don't want to because it would counter their arguments.
Communication is fascinating as a subject. That's what I am getting from this conversation. I've tried to see from the pov of Farha and treat her arguments as made in good faith. And I was mind blown. Basically she says that the man needs to be responsible for everything- needs to have self control under all circumstances, needs to read the mind of a woman. And the responsibility of the woman is at the most being a bit clearer with her boundaries. And it's really only "a bit" because, as Farha said- saying "woah, let's chill" means "I don't want to have sex tonight".
As soon as “whoa let’s chill” becomes universally accepted as “No”, they just gonna start using the excuse “I was afraid to just tell him ‘whoa let’s chill’ cuz he may of gotten mad” 😂❤
Hmm I see where you’re coming from and it’s clear most of the comment section agrees. But I’m actually surprised some of this seems so strange? I think it’s because, in my experience, an emotional exchange isn’t necessarily a romantic one. I would like to have an emotional connection with my romantic partner, but not all of my emotional connections are romantic partners. I share a lot of those deep, emotional parts of myself with family and close friends. So to me it’s hard to fathom why that would translate to a guy as an inclination towards a romantic relationship or interest in the way a woman walking around with little clothing on would be (which I definitely agree is suggestive). I’m wondering if this is just one of those areas where I agree with Destiny that men and women are just on totally different pages on this. Same thing with not registering hesitation and rather, transforming that into approval but just with more steps, like the girl going as far as oral s** but still demonstrating hesitation because she doesn’t want to be perceived as a sl**. In my mind, like Destiny said, any form of hesitation is VERY clear to me and I am therefore very aware of when I disregard it. I don’t disagree that this is what men might be thinking, but it’s certainly news to me and is far from how I or most of the women (arguably people) in my life operate. But I guess the majority of my inner circles aren’t made up of young and single men looking for a relationship with me, could just be a lack of experience. 🤷🏽♀️
This conversation is so stupid... The entire issue is Farha is saying stuff like "oh she doesnt wanna say NO because everyone feels a certain type of way when we hear NO and shes trying to spare him that" ... but that is the exact issue... its true everyone does feel a certain type of way when they hear 'no'.. that feeling is rejection, and the guy HAS to feel rejected because that is the reality of the situation, he IS being rejected... if he doesnt feel rejected then in his mind, he is not being rejected, our feelings dictate our thoughts... the guys feelings have to align with the situation for him to understand the situation... just because a girl doesnt want to be the one to make him feel that way, doesnt mean she is absolved of the responsibility, shes the ONLY person who can tell him no in that situation so she has to do it... it sucks, but a lot of things suck when it comes to relationships and hookups and dates and sex and flings etc... if a girl doesnt do her job of saying NO, then the guy is left with a situation where he has to interpret other signs, and he may suck at it or just not have the experience for correct interpretation.... not saying it would be the girls fault if something happens after that, but it does mean they did not fulfill their responsibility to the situation
Destiny's scenario that a woman should "babysit" her male friend's emotions who she has friendzoned as analogous to a man who should "babysit" a woman's feelings during sex is correct. Khalidi kept saying those 2 scenarios are not comparable because the woman in the Ansari scenario said "wow, let's chill", and Khalidi kept implying over and over again that "let's chill" is equivalent to saying no. But it just isn't for men, as Destiny pointed out. Her argument is that it is equivalent to saying "no" for a woman because a woman might be afraid of saying "no" to a man, therefore "let's chill" should be understood as "no" by default. But Khalidi doesn't seem to realize that she is then asking the man to treat the woman with special consideration, because she is a woman and might therefore act differently from a man (again, for a man "let's chill" is not equivalent to "no"). So she is effectively asking the man *not* to treat the woman as someone who is on an equal position to him, but as someone who is in a more vulnerable position, because of the difference in strenght (or because women tend to be more agreeable and dislike saying no to people directly) 1:13:12/1:15:53/1:16:34. She is expecting the man to have the special consideration that she might be afraid to say no, because he has the (physical) leverage. And that's precisely Destiny's point: the woman who friendzones the guy should also realize as well that she has the (emotional) leverage over the guy and therefore that they are not on an equal position, and she should therefore have the special consideration of being the sensible adult in the room. And this is true because a lot of men are lonely and don't have as many options as their female friends, so the guy can be in an emotionally vulnerable situation that clouds his judgement relative to the woman. And maybe a woman reading this comment might not empathize with the friendzone scenario, but I have seen it many times. A man takes his female "friend" to places she wants to go to, takes her shopping, carries her bags, gives her emotional support and validation, etc. Because the guy is lonely, has been lonely for a long time, is attracted to her, and doesn't have hope of getting other women. So that guy is not going to end the relationship because that is the closest thing he has to having a woman in his life. So in his mind he is going to justify the situation, even though she is getting her needs met and he is not. I have seen it over and over again, and it is not healthy. And usually the women know what's up, they just choose to ignore it because they are comfortable with the way things work in that friendship (I actually know a woman who had that type of relationship with a guy I know and she would actively avoid being alone with him when they were drinking because she was afraid he would tell her his feelings explicitly while drunk, which would force her to reject him explicitly and make it uncomfortable for her to continue the friendship. So she knew the whole time the guy had feelings for her and still pretended she didn't know and let him take her shopping, give her emotional validation, etc). And if you still don't see how those two things are analogous, think about a more explicit and extreme version of it: BDSM. In dominance-submissive relationships in which the man is the dominant one, even if the woman has agreed to it, there is a high risk of the woman not feeling comfortable saying no and feeling violated afterwards. The line that separates that from actual abuse can be unbelievably thin. Likewise in findom (or just regular onlyfans), it can be argued that in many cases lonely and desperate men are being manipulated psychologically and emotionally for their money (exploited or abused). Like the guy in the friendzone, those men justify that toxic and asymmetric relationship in their heads. So as Destiny said, ideally men should be extra careful with women when it comes to sex if women seem even a bit ambivalent, and women should be extra careful with men when men seem emotionally attached to (or romantically interested in) them when it comes to friendships (or babysit, as Khalidi puts it). Women should also be more clear (more explicit) with their boundaries and intentions. The problem is that those things can be hard for both sexes and the incentives often don't help. btw, as an aside, it is extremely annoying that in these discussions men's mental processes always have to be framed purely as either morally wrong or just dumb, while women's mental processes are framed as purely defensive. Men have reasons for their behavior that make sense in their situation as men, and women also have reasons for their behavior that make sense in their situation as women (even though both men and women often don't understand the opposite sex's reasons). Those reasons don't always justify their actions in every scenario, but there is still a reason behind the general behavior. But it seems we almost always have to either frame men's reasons as negative or pretend their reasons don't exist or are not valid, because if we don't a lot of women react as if we were justifying all bad male behavior. A lot of women refuse to accept men's reasons because in their minds if they accept the reasons behind the behavior as valid that would justify men's actions in every case, which is not true. And they also seem to think that if they admit that women's (valid) reasons don't justify a woman's behavior in a particular case, that opens the door for dismissing women's reasons every time, which isn't true either. In the Ansari scenario, for example, I understand the woman could have been afraid to say no, and that's a perfectly valid reason. And he was bad at reading her, agreed. But she still acted extremely dumb by giving mixed signals to the guy. It was dumb to go to his house after the date if she didn't want to give the impression that she wanted sex, because as an adult she should know that men rely on those types of objective signals to guess women's intentions. And she was dumb for performing oral sex on him if she didn't want to keep misleading him. And if she, as an adult, knows she can be potentially afraid to say no in such scenarios, it's her responsability not to put herself in that position unless she is sure she wants to. It's not fair to give mixed signals to a man who relies on those signals to guess her intentions and then call him an abuser when he misinterprets them (not saying that Ansari wasn't too pushy, he was, but that doesn't deserve the public humiliation of the article, imo). And yet I am halfway through the video and Khalidi so far has not granted a single point Destiny made about that, even though he granted many of her points. And it seems to me that she is so reluctant to concede those points because she just doesn't want to open the door to questioning women's mistakes in sexual scenarios, because that in her mind would be equivalent to victim blaming and excusing male perpetrators of sexual abuse. But by doing that she is being very partial and unfair. At least that's the impression I get so far. I mean it's either that or she just genuinely can't comprehend the male side of the situation. Either way I would love for her to explain what responsibility she thinks adult women should have in those types of scenarios to avoid misleading men, and prevent the escalation of unwanted sex. Because she is explaining what she thinks men's responsability should be, and fair enough, but what responsability do women have?
As soon as you said women are more sensible adult than men because of the emotional leverage I stopped. Brother how are they more sensible when they are more emotional. Not everyone is a simp like you.
In reality it took both of them 30 minutes to realise that the “let’s chill” was in response to him getting the condom, not to him kissing her. Destiny didn’t realise this either for an entire 30 minutes on the stream. She also admitted very quickly that she misinterpreted it once both of them realised what happened.
Yeah lol that part was ridiculous “Let’s chill” in this scenario could so easily be interpreted as meaning “I need way more foreplay than that man, get me warmed up”.
I’ve heard women say that. It obviously depends on how she says it and other cues but from my experience it usually means she wants more foreplay. Women typically need more of a “build up” and Anziz was going way too fast which fucked up the mood probably.
Um, yeah, and why would it be otherwise? This sort of thing especially on a first date when you literally know almost nothing about the person is a fluid experience in totally unknown territory. You don't get to say "you did thing X 5 minutes ago, so now I get to do whatever I want to you." If a woman is no longer cool with something it doesn't matter what happened before. The fact that you and others like you don't understand this is why this conversation has to keep happening.
she still approaches this from a stance that allows her to get sex when she wants it. "a guy can't get sex" is not malice, it's factual. it's not inherent feeling of entitlement, it's desire and her saying a man answering the phone for a unwanted trauma dump in the hope that he'll fulfill the role she is SEARCHING for...is insidious..
Tbh I don't really think she's coming from bad faith, in fact I think both her and destiny kinda exaggerate the behavior of a average guy in a sexual encounter. I think destiny was generally more on point but she's right that better social awareness on the man's part is essential if you don't want to get in trouble
@RanEncounter ideally yes but if she's being apprehensive then it's better to disengage entirely. It's not easy but it's the best we can do in this dating landscape
This was a wild listen. Feels like major disconnect is the guest was focused on how things as they ought to be, and destiny was focused on things as they currently are.
Destiny is making a lot of really good points in this video. Farha made some good points too. Farha did struggle with making her argument in a general sense because she really struggled making a correlation between the two scenarios. Emotional babysitting is expected in both cases for the person with the leverage.
It feels like it's impossible for her to see anything from the perspective where a woman might have to take some responsibility for her actions and a man might feel confused and vulnerable. In every instance, men are perpetrators and women are victims. No exceptions.
@@SASMADBRUV7 from the RUclips stream. I watched part of this from that stream so I'm familiar with a decent bit of the conversation. She did kinda seem obtuse but I understand her position, though I disagree. The sexual harassment didn't seem so sinister from the description and it seemed like she saw it as so. But still I only saw about 45 minutes of it in the live stream so I may learn something critical. 👍
We, women are way more innocent and clueless about men's way of interpreting situations, we have to stop thinking they see things the same way we do, it only creates those confusing & awkward moments
Agreed. The problem is that women continue to naively assume men are acting in good faith, which is fucking wild given how they literally give away their manipulative playbook. Obviously, they are just trying to fuck and will push the boundaries whenever possible. Aziz was being a coercive dickhead, but he did the same thing about 99% of men would do in his position.
To be clear, after the boundary was set as they were just about to have sex, they never had sex. Once returning to the couch and watching Seinfeld while fully clothed, Aziz attempted to do more making out and foreplay like they did earlier, not attempting to violate the boundary which was just set moments ago about sex. This lady keeps framing that this later action was attempted R and destiny tried but did a poor job calling her out on it.
Kinda but not really. It really depends on the situation. In this situation, when she finally explicitly said no and the stopped everything and put their clothes back on and didn’t continue making out, I think it’s a bit more unreasonable to expect that making out was still on the table. It’s one of those things where if you squint really hard and tilt your head, you can kind of see the reasoning behind it but that’s giving a whole truckload of charitability. At the end of the day, it may or may not be sexual assault but it was definitely a bonehead move.
I feel like destiny let's her off to easly at the end. Throughout the whole conversation the girl position was that you can just make out, and it doesn't neccesarly leads/guarantees sex. And the hard "no" wasn't to kissing, but the sex. After which, they returned to only kissing, so he respected her boundry
destiny probably chose to give up the point on purpose considering how bad faith she was being about everything else, but the most triggering part about this for me is that sexual assault somehow always trumps emotional manipulation. Every time she said it, I wanted to bang my head against a wall. It's pretty clear to me that no matter how many times women claim men should be more in touch with their emotions, they don't really care about it all. In fact, it just feels like they're always waiting for an opportunity to explain why male emotions just don't matter that much in the grand scheme
Yeah, it's a complete double standard. Like when a woman is sexually coerced because she didn't set any boundaries, that's traumatizing and deserves empathy, but when a guy is rejected over and over again, that's not the kind of emotional distress to take seriously, he should man up and deal with it. However, I do think this is very much a US/online problem. In my region no woman thinks like that, a lot of them can set boundaries and take men's issues really seriously. Remember that folks
@@firebreathercat133 not inherently in any capacity. there is absolutely nothing that makes a stealthing situation more impactful than years of being led on, unironically. one feels worse because it carries the weight and implication of physicality and violence, but that feeling is irrelevant
Sexual assault does trump emotional manipulation. Both are bad. But if you don’t see one as obviously worse… you got issues. These false equivalencies people make are so braindead
"The responsibility is on herrrr.", yes, unironically, literally. I'm a woman, my parents raised me by speaking to me directly. If a guy invites me to his home alone, I'm not going, even if he's just a friend. On a date even less so. You have to be direct, because guys can't read your mind. Put strict limits and be forcible, it's actually not complicated.
You can still invite people over one on one, even as a woman, but if you’re retarded then it’s better to never invite people over one on one. There just needs to be communication before hand. If you don’t trust them to not push boundaries or literally rape you, then why are you friends? If it’s a first or even a couple dates along, then it’d make sense to not invite them back to your place because there’s nowhere to leave. If you go to his then you could leave at any point if he gets too pushy. If he gives off rapey vibes, then don’t go anywhere with them
@@ItsMe-cp8xc This type of thinking seems to just ignore all of the stories like what happened in the video. If I had a nickel for every time a girl told me that she had a sexual encounter that she wasn't comfortable with, I would be pretty fantastically rich. Similarly, most sexual assault is performed by people that you know, not by strangers and it usually happens close to your home. I understand as a man you think that way, but women (like myself) need to be more pragmatic and understand social cues. This also isn't to say that there aren't good guys in the world, some really do just want to bring you over and show their video game collection and watch Netflix, but the majority of them? No, they think they're about to get lucky, and they're going to try every single trick in the book to do it, including begging, moping, throwing tantrums, guilt trips -- I won't even go on longer than this other than to say: I've grown up a woman, I talk to many women, and even though I've never been in a relationship or had sex, I know what guys are like.
Very odd and frustrating conversation. She essentially followed the same pattern the entire time. “Well, did he mean (insert what he said) OR did he mean (insert something not even tangentially related to what he said)?”
If the difference between an awkward moment and a traumatic SA that will affect you for the rest of your life is simply an assertive 'No'... People should really be screaming from the roof tops begging women to be better at asserting boundaries and catching cues they're unintentionally giving off.
Frustrating Shit.. partied with a girl all night, we made out, when we got to my apartment she was hesitant so I took it as a no.. the next day she was like "why didn't you keep going!" to this day I still regret not going for it.. we where friends... I was not able to read her guys SUCK at reading girls signals because girls are not direct enough.. guys need a hammer over the head
@@catheriney6209 The thing is she’s not weird. That’s like, most women. You’re the weird one just based on the numbers. That said, always assume maybe is no, it’s not worth the risk.
@@catheriney6209 online yes, but in real life it’s probably 50/50. A lot of people think they have to play these games and have to play hard to get. It doesn’t make it right but there really is not clear way to differentiate them.
The article they read after this was viscerally unpleasant, and the fact that she liked it made her total dismissal of men’s feelings in situations like these less surprising
I feel like Farha conflated an explanation for a justification so many times, just because you're explaining someone's actions/mind state doesn't necessarily mean you're justifying them
Aziz and the woman were literally both acting like teens during their dating process like it was their first time. The only thing that means no is the word NO. Anything else could be signaling. Men and women need to talk about sex before having it and both need to be explicit in their attentions. If you can't do this you are a child, man or women.
She’s so dense…. Why can’t she just admit…”the girl needs to say something” On one hand, they want ENTHUSIASTIC consent. Then giving the subtlest of subtle signals most people won’t pick up on then all of the sudden that’s enough to end an encounter. No clear communication at all.
For me annoying thing is totally different standard applied to both parties. She treat that man as an adult, and treat the woman as an undeveloped child. She's totally biased.
This is literally the stream. Her pretending to be dense and Destiny trying to spoon-feed her some basic social concepts which she proceeds to overcomplicate 🙄
The pulling the hand away from dick while youre having this interaction can absolutely be seen as playful. Especially when you bring in the fact they were running around the apartment and shit. Playing hard to get, being playful is pretty normal the first time or when youre new to someone.
I think a lot of this shit is just really contextual. Like, I've never really had questions of whether a girl is into me or not by the point we've been making out or something because her body language would've let me to that conclusion and usually the girls I've been with have made it really obvious when they're enjoying it. I think if you're an open book and can joke and converse with each other the rest follows pretty easily. I think we forget that it's weird making strangers into friends straight away in the first place, let alone when you're trying to fuck that stranger. I'd just tell my fellow dudes to have a little patience and get to know her and let her feel safe a little first. If you gotta just hang with her in bed and watch movies for the first night it won't kill you. Her seeing you're attentive and chill and running the weird paranoid risk you conjured up she'll think you a pussy nice-guy is a hell of a lot better than her seeing you as a pussy desperate creep.
"Everyone feels a certain type of way when they're told no." That's that whole point, Farha, when you say "no" to someone it grabs their attention. Women need to normalize using the word no in these situations and drawing clear boundaries. No more soft rejection bullshit, just make it clear and unambiguous.
OK frame it this way. "What if it wasn't a guy trying to talk a girl into sex. What if you walked into a Verizon store and some sales clerk talked you into buying a $1500 phone?"
I feel like a closer comparison would be if a sales clerk talked you into buying a phone and you got up to the register, decided you didn't want to buy the phone and the clerk jumped across the counter stole your money and gave you the phone.
@@cabbagedestroyer1693 context is the most important part of language. If I just gave you the words "Dude, you're sick" without the context you would never be able to tell me whether I meant it as a weirdly casual doctor telling his patient he's unwell, or whether I'm a skateboarder talking to another skateboarder who just did a cool trick. So, the argument here can never be "Can relax and chill mean no and stop?" because that is an argument you will never win, the answer is obviously yes it can. It has to be, "Does relax and chill in this context mean no and stop?" and that's a question to which we'll probably never get the answer to because we can't actually see the events that took place that night. Given how ambiguous the situation seems even through HER OWN ONE SIDED TELLING OF THE STORY COMPLETE WITH HER OWN THOUGHTS AND PERCEPTION OF EACH INDIVIDUAL EVENT, I would say, it's probably pretty safe to say that "relax and chill" did NOT firmly imply "I do not want to be doing ANY of this with you right now" in that context, no. Relax and chill can absolutely mean that in other contexts, though.
@@carcarcarcarcarkiddead no a closer comparison would be if a sales clerk was showing you a product and you were saying ambiguous shit like this aint gonna break right? or my wife gonna be mad if I buy this but never said you don't wanna buy and at some point the clerk takes your credit card and goes to bill you but you say no and they give it back to you. After which they show you some other products but you don't buy any and at the end the clerk says well if you ain't gonna buy anything then get the fuck out which you should have done the moment you decided you didn't wanna buy anything but you kept wasting their time.
@@insomaniacsblank432 lmao. thank you Like, imagine walking into a verizon store, and then getting mad that the employees keep coming up talking to you to try and sell you on something.
Her TikToks are the same hate bait you see red pill men putting out. Highly viewed content designed to lure I'm sad, lonely men, where they create or hyper specifically select for the WORST women they can find and ask them leading questions to bring out their worst opinions and then turn to the camera and say "Look, guys, look what all women are like!" Like and follow for more! She does thr same thing, but with men, she strawmans a male character and has him say a bunch of mean things, then turns to the camera and says "Look, girls. Look what all men are like!". ... She also has all the charisma and social skills of a pet rock without the cute, stick on eyes.
I feel like the content she makes is her saying things that I see plenty of men say online all the time. Obviously not ALL men, but she’s making fun of pretty classic redpill type statements which a lot of young women are exposed to. I feel like personally when I’ve delved into the redpill community the things they act like women say are way more outlandish and are rarely reactions to people trying to spread an ideology and more just interviewing drunk girls outside a club about body count. I can see where you’re coming from, and it could be same for the redpill community. But at the same time her videos are making fun of things that I’ve seen redpill men say online 728384847 times and Ik other women have too.
@@pikits196 But the reason the redpill is so successful (even though I don't agree with it in the slightest) is that pretty much every claim they make is reinforced by dumb shit some women say online. You could make the argument for both types of content. I don't think that women consume this content and think "these are the type of men to avoid", they could also come away with the thought "oh wow, this is how men are". I'm not saying both are equally toxic btw, the redpill is worse.
In the dog example boundaries were set beforehand. It was "Do not eat food, when I am not in the room" and "Do not eat food until i give you command" I hope that girl realises that
So many of the comments are stemming from a previous friendzone burn. Also the word unsophisticated is the dumbest convoluted word to use in the context that JP did.
@@asimhussain8716 sophisticated is a very bad choice. In fact it is a "typical of Peterson" bad choice. You actually proved my point from the get go with your unsophisticated argument, pun intended, you just don't know it yet. Peterson has a track record of addressing his self help, generic advice seeking youtube audience, the way he addressed his academic audience back in the days with his first book. This is precisely why it doesn't work and often has the opposite effect. He goes infront of some young guys struggling to get laid and starts rumbling about postmodernist marxists? No it doesn't fly. It is suitable for some academics debating Foucaults believes over a glass of wine after lectures. Maybe a paper. Nevertheless if you drop this niche borderline conspiratorial phrase infront of the general public, you will only confuse them and fuel a messy debate of people who repeat blindly and amplify in sometimes unpredictable directiona. Oh the marxists, yeah they are postmodrnists. The end result of his phrasing is complete confusion. Counter productive to the fullest. Using the word sophistication has exactly the same effect. Oh yeah women who get r worded are just...you know a bit on the goofy side, a bit on the silly side, a bit...you know "unsophisticated". And from there, this ambiguous word is turned into...well anything. Because it is ambiguous. Because it is incomplete definition. Because there is no elaboration. It could mean lack of understanding of a social situation. It could mean lack of understanding of concent. It could be completely different then lack of understanding, it couls be lack of experience, naivety so to speak. Or something completely different. There is so much to why a woman who doesn't want to have sex will not say it firmly, but will hint it mildly. Slapping the vague term Unsophisticated is precisely as dumb, quite frankly this is the exact word such mistake deserves, as boiling down a very broad and nuanced theory of progressive values pushed on the general young population via the academia, to the ambiguous, vague and oxymoronic term postmodern marxists. It is dumb and also it is dangerous. What reaches his the audience is often unpredictable because of his poor phrasing. Which is classical Jordy. All this is evident by the fact he wrote about the monstrosities of the 20th century, just to become inspirational figure of many alt right figures. Wording is not his strong side and certainly not wording that works outside of academia. Which is litherally what you tried to use as an insult, without realising you are cornering yourself with this argument. "Oh but psychologists get it lol" only mean his message is not suitable for his audience. Armchair psychologists is who Peterson needs to conversate with and who has been the recipient of his mesaages, ever since he broke from the university circles. Which again is Petersons problem. He should have stayed in the realm of writing jungian inspired papers.
Rule number 1: the moment a woman says anything along the line of “no”. Get your clothes on and leave or tell her to get the fuck out Will save you every time
I agree. Especially until women learn to communicate more maturely. However I think there could be another reason aside from avoiding a rape accusation. I would personally just do it to save face at the very least. If a guy was giving me ambiguous vibes, I would leave simply because I wouldn't want someone to lukewarm and begrudgingly decide to give me what I want for some reason, despite not really wanting it as well. Yikes. And if he wanted it and gave the wrong signals, that's on him
I could be wrong but here’s my two cents. 1. Someone is Farha’s family or her life in general has been seriously oppressed for a long period of time. That could be cold read via her take on martial R. The same as you can see a certain lifestyle influence on the F&F guys as well. An oppressed mind is more than ever always an insecure mind. So I am not that surprised. Awareness, perspective and experiences can however help things change. 2. I highly doubt if Farha has actually ever been out with one guy (or any guys) on an actual date/romantic endeavour. A lot of her rhetorics and theories would go out of the park when she actually steps out and seeks a romantic meeting with the opposite sex. Being involved with a woman in a lesbian relationship is the same as a guy seeing other guys. It does not need much understanding of the term ‘social dynamic’ and the nuances that exists in the world of Social dynamics. Exceptions are always applicable but the very damn thing that makes a relationship ‘dynamic’ is the dynamism of the two very opposite genders, worldview, biology, perspective and context.
She's not stupid but she's certainly not trying to see this from anyone else's perspective, either. She isn't even entertaining the idea that Ansari carries less blame than what she believed before starting this conversation and that's not a good starting point for the discussion.
Not sure how women can be friends with guys that do those sort of things. I’m a chick that has a lot of guy friends throughout my life. I was legit a part of the guy group. If a guy really is cool with just being your friend, he will treat you like his dude friends. He’s not offering to do you favors.
You're having this long conversation about what "woah, let's relax for a sec" means, but if you read the previous sentence, he was grabbing a condom. So "let's relax" may mean to Aziz, "let's de-escalate", like let's not have sex but do foreplay first. Would've been more succinct Edit: I see it took you 20m of arguing to finally get to this point at 1:05:47
the problem with (mis)reading signals is that women give almost exactly the same signals to guys they intend to friendzone and the ones they're sexually and/or romantically interested in. once the guy makes a move, it depends on her feelings towards him whether or not he crossed a boundary or not; it depends on her feelings towards him whether or not she expects him to make a move despite her lack of clear communication. EDIT: 46:14 case in point obviously, men need to be a bit more careful and women need to communicate more clearly.
Unironically the best debate I've maybe ever seen Destiny have in my 7-8 years of watching in terms of actual advancement of ideas and not just entertainment. Actual substantive disagreement, honest engagement, she was pushing him very pointedly on actual discrepancies in his arguments, she didn't just have boilerplate opinions, she accepted that he might have more knowledge than her when he said she doesn't understand his point (and later understood why on her own), she even conceded some points although she had to have a very high emotional investment in them. Seriously might be the best engagement Destiny has gotten in the last several years. Edit: Wait she was drunk during this???
She literally is just opposing his pov for content so the stream is entertaining to watch. You can't actuslly belive this is a genuine conversation right?this content is a business model, she is playing her role,and destiny is being destiny
I was losing braincells listening to her try and bend reality, to avoid admitting a woman could have any responsebility in any situation in a male/female interaction.
On the Traffic Light scale, "woah, lets relax for a sec" is an yellow light statement, not a red light statement (i.e., it's "slow down", not "stop"). It seems like Farha and "Grace" think that it's a definite red light when it is way more analogous to yellow.
@@H4chiSama What happened was that both destiny and Farha didn’t realise for an entire 30 minutes that that was in response to him going to grab a condom, not in response to aziz kissing her. Once they finally both realised, she very quickly said that she didn’t realise it was in response to him grabbing the condom.
It's the diffusing behavior we have learned to do when challenging males so they are hopefully less likely to hurt us. Like "lets chill" is gentler than outright "no" as we need to navigate the situation to see how badly our boundaries will be disregarded. A guy who respects that is safer to be around. A guy who doesn’t indicates that placation/backing slowly out of the room may need to happen to get out of the situation.
How long have men been taught, "no means no."? I wouldn't be surprised that unless you explicitly say "No" then they're going to assume you're "playing the game" or that you need more foreplay or they're not ready for that particular thing.
"I don't want to make any solid statements because then I would be admitting that the is a concrete value to attack about sex. Sex needs to be infinitely valuable and infinitely worthless in order for me to have agency."
It's very obvious here that this woman has very little empathy for the other side of the equation. Either she genuinely just can't understand men at all or she doesn't really care to. The way she hesitated to even admit that the woman was giving mixed signals is evidence it was the ladder. She absolutely refuses to see the guy as maybe, idk not an evil bastard? Maybe, ya know, a person or something?
I enjoyed the debate so thank you both. I think one point that fell a bit under the table is how mentally there both parties were in that story. Both had been drinking and I'd assume Aziz by the end was in full on horny mode. I'd say the way to set the boundary escalates in the same way the situation escalates. In a perfect world both parties are open with what they want and clear-headed enough to think straight. In reality some mumbled or nonverbal cues might not always be enough to slow things down. By the end the clear "No, I don't want to do this" should also be followed by her starting to grab her stuff and leaving. And to Aziz' credit he apparently stopped at that point though he kept pushing which is pretty bad. The point is, a simple verbal "No" is lot clearer the earlier it is said and that needs to be understood by both sides.
She's mixing up the story the girl is completely naked when she says they need to relax for a sec. As a young girl, when I was discovering my sexual identity (Asexual). I was in a similar situation because I was trying to feel sexual attraction. I didn't, and I stopped the situation. With men, you do have to be very clear. That is why this is such an important topic. I know I was giving the poor guy mixed signals. That is why I had to be very clear. I do believe it is possible to maliciously coerced sex but it is more along the lines with how police interrogations get innocent people to confess. Men are more forceful, and women are in much harder situations to get out of. The women feel like sex is the only way to get out of the situation. Edit, only halfway through vid
Follow Farha Khalidi
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Destiny Sets Up Impromptu Debate, INSTANTLY Regrets His Decision ft. Farha ►ruclips.net/video/vOYcW6s-vn0/видео.html
Holy shit!! NO, he’s not entitled to her body or to sex, he’s entitled to an honest, totally unambiguous statement or answer to his questions and advances. When he says, “Oh, second date? If I pour another glass of wine will that count?” And the very next line of the article is, “and then he was pouring me another glass,” every adult reading should go, woah, how did he say something so suggestive to this master of signals and innuendo and somehow she missed the chance to say, “no, it wouldn’t count.” Like what the actual fuck?
I think... she is in denial. shes trying to be daring and explorative perhaps in things but resists it at the same time.
To put it in to a common point of comparison, like in the harry potter books, where the teacher basically compels Harry to jump onto the desk and Harry is supposed to use his will power to repel the compulsion. Harry does it half way, and topples over the desk, not jumping nigh enough but not staying flat on the ground either.
The teacher looks at him, and congratulates him for not jumping on the desk, that he showed the will to at least try to resist.
(that part doesnt matter to this, im not saying anyone is compeling her, I am saying she is trying to achieve two very different things in the same motion and its causing her to crash over the furniture so to speak each time.)
But yes... straight forward yes or no. It was literally one of the most important lessons in school in the 90s. Just say no. it fits lots of things.. except taxes :s
As i said elsewhere on this page, someone should make all the zoomers watch every film ever made in america to get a understanding of the past generations and what was idealized, and how people used to communicate and handle each other. It might actually even them out and help them to understand the world and other people better.
🤣🤣🤣 WHY
Looks like August is practicing his Zoomer editing for the TikTok audience lol
Can he please stop?
True lol
I think it's pretty clean
It’s slick! Thank you based August
@@Anne-pj7ny Tik Tok is worse than garbage
It's nice see two woman of color having a healthy debate 🥰
I see a man and woman there. I think you like man too course you don’t see the difference.
@pegasus z0 ehhh is a name. Italian men uses woman name too.
@@jeffersoncastro3746lmaoooo you don’t know the lore
@@jeffersoncastro3746 bro is clueless
@@jeffersoncastro3746 It's an inside joke. Welcome aboard.
This entire argument about the analogies could have been easily stopped by "She did not say no. If Aziz grabbed the condom, and she instead said 'I am not comfortable having sex after our first date.' this no longer sends mixed signals, but also keeps interest intact for a next time if they choose to have one." It's extremely frustrating when Destiny is trying to argue that both parties need to be more straightforward in communication and Farha cannot understand why what she said is not clear communication.
Yeah not gonna lie its kinda bizzare. I cant tell if its a maturity or informtion thing. I can understand a younger woman not getting this, but it seems as though there are a growing number of women who dont understand what is unclear of what THEY are doing or saying. I feel like its getting to be so bizzare how we talk about consent and communication but there arent any real discussions about what men take as signals.
My grandparents generation would have seen you sleeping at a guys house over night as a sign you had sex, or even wearing something revealing gave a different message.
Now it seems like women are told almost no behavior short of saying she wants sex indicates sexual interest. Even in my time if a man invites you to back to his place after a date, that signaled something. I wonder if by taking away these signals weve unintentionally taken away a societal understanding for women how to view behaviors and communicate, putting them in th eworse situation where they have no clue how to signal and men have no clue what the signal is without verbal contracts.
It’s the difference between how men and women communicate. Women communicate covertly, men communicate overtly.
Aziz thought he could statusmax and act like chad but forgot he looks like a subhuman currycel
It all boils down to respecting boundaries a lot of people have issues with that. Unfortunately, we don't live in a society where everyone has a pure heart. People know and are very aware of what they're doing but choose to push other boundaries which makes its dangerous if he or she is not assertive enough.
I agree. But I also know that sometimes girls say the word NO and guys still somehow misread it. Like they think they just have to try harder to get the girl in the mood or something.
I love how at 57:50 she complains about men needing emotional babysitting, but at no point does she realize she's arguing in favor of emotionally babysitting women who can't simply give a clear yes/no when a guy advances on them.
It's also typical shaming men for emotions. Essentially calling them childish. Reverse the genders and she never would used the same phraseology. In her mind we have to validate women's emotions whilst having ours dismissed outright
It's actually annoying because i can't tell if she really doesn't understand the similarities or is willfully ignorant
Exactly and If a woman is giving me head and hasn't said no at all , also accepted oral already without pushing the guy away i think were pretty far into intercorse already one of the main points of a blow job is readying the man for intercorse in the first place its not just for pleasure purely.
If im getting a BJ in my head i have green lights cant this woman understand this?
This is why clear communication means alot.
This guy probably just thought he wasn't wooing her well which is why he switched it up and tried some other things obviously akwardly but the woman still didnt say no instead she gave him a BJ.
These people assume that humans are not animals and because we are animals with a physical body that does not always purely listen to logic but has instincts and pherimones and chemicals and all these other things shit gets very primal once you take things so far if all she was gonna do is a BJ she should have just finished the guy lol.
It's not really that hard if you are the advancer, male or female. The person you flirt with WILL show interest or some form of reciprocation within a week. If they are not, then very simply they are not interested or better yet can not even entertain that possibility. Waiting on a yes/no on an "advance" instead of being adult enough and just asking straight out is pathetic regarless anyways.
@@yeahaight5483 Right, like if it has to be a question or (as a big ass adult) you have to stress about it then it’s maybe not gonna go your way, I dont know any female where it isn’t oblivious they dont want you. Or ask, I’m like imagine meeting someone and the first thing you say is “Nice to meet you so just an FYI I don’t want to fuck you,” but I’m not and have never been apart of hookup culture so maybe I just dont know
Funny how she expects men to have perfect reading of a womans state of mind based on the most nuanced expressions, like "lets chill", while having absolutely no understanding what so ever of how men think and act.
She seem to have no understanding of how humans act in general
I feel like she’s arguing that Mens interactions with women should be inclusive In regards to their experiences and yet womens interactions with men should be neutral and men’s experiences are not valid
I’m sorry I’m the big dum dum. Can u elaborate more on this. I had a brain spasm reading this.
@@sleepingtom9337 yeah all good it’s just seemed to me that when it comes to womens experiences with men gender matters (gender inclusive) and yet when it comes to mens experiences with women she seems to flip and argue that a man’s gendered experiences suddenly are irrelevant (gender neutral) just my opinion could be I misunderstood
for sure. She couldn't even simply acknowledge that moving your hand away from somebody's dick you just sucked is a confusing type of boundary to set in this scenario. Maybe at the end of the day the entire scenario was sexual assault. but she's trying to fight and die on every tiny hill of this conversation in favor of calling it sexual assault. any good points she may have made got pretty diluted by this. Is she going on fresh 'n fit? if so, they'll rip her to shreds with ease. she'd be her own worst enemy in the conversation.
@@zerosum3751 That seems like exactly what she's doing and I don't think she even realizes it.
@@sleepingtom9337 Think she was less incline to be thoughtful about the male side of the experience.
Is so fucking frustrating how she completely changed what happened and destiny let her. It went from: "we were making out then he stopped said he was going to grab a condom she said wow let's chill for a bit then we started kissing again (no one knows for how long) then he went down on me then I on him". To: "we where kissing and I said let's chill for a bit then he went down on me".
This are completely different situations.
dude! omg I was yelling out loud listening to this part of the convo.
oh wait actually about an hour in he finally gets her on it. fuck. lol that was brutal.
“How would you articulate that you don’t want sex?”
I dunno, you could try “no.”
Nah screw that, I'd give a grey confusing answer then cry internally when they don't read my social cues and scratch my back
Let‘s chill ☕️
"i do not want to have sex" gigachad
I see you're trying to penetrate my cat, let's chill
Say “let’s chill” saying “no” is apparently way too confusing.
She argued hard as hell for women to not show agency
They should fight for equality with children.
@@ac2395 @AC what equality for children
Well, yeah... Look at her and if you listen to her, she is completely biased towards women. Thats the typical feminist, "We cannot do wrong because power dynamics" but on the other hand "Men are always wrong even if I act wrong."
Thats why I and many think that feminists don't want equality... because they neither preach it nor do they even talk about it.
In equality, everyone needs to take agency and responsibility so we can act towards equally.
The irony
I think the message is that when in doubt, hold back. If she's not screaming yes, you need to assume no. Men are motivated to hear yes unless she's screaming no, because they're men, and men's desperation always outweighs women's concerns. Women saying a hard no WILL escalate into physical combat and rape in many cases. It is a losing game for women to directly confront men, who are larger and stronger. So a woman is more likely to give a soft no and try to ease out of the situation. It gives us a better chance of making it out alive.
34:00 just to be very clear - she said "let's relax for a second" after he suggested ESCALATING the situation even more. I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret that as not wanting things to go further, but whether that means "stop entirely" or "continue with what we're doing" is absolutely not well communicated.
She spent so long arguing the woman’s point of view that she failed to realize the point of clear boundaries is to cut through the two different perspectives.
@Xavier E perfectly explained. I’m gonna screenshot this.
@Xavier E Beast ass comment
@Xavier E Men aren't thinking of it from the girl's perspective.
"Women explicitly say ...", but did this specific woman say ....
you are blaming women for being indirect and not clearly stating what they want,
but then go through an entire list of questions that a guy is too afraid to ask.
Your entire inner dialogue shows that you would rather risk raping a girl than risk not having sex.
if men don't know what is expected of them, then we need to ask.
@@disobedienttiger6240 How do you watch Destiny and STILL want to treat women like retarded children?
@@disobedienttiger6240 you can ask all what you want and probably encourage it but the fact that the man always has to be the one to emotionally babysit the women is retarded and basically go against the whole feminist movement in the first place. If you want something say it its called communication
I feel like Farha Khalidi's arguments basically justified Jordan Petersons whole point HAHAHAHA
I feel like she argued against herself multiple times without even realising it
@@Hemlocker no she did not
Merch
The fact she can’t even concede that it’s bad for women to friendzone and use guys for emotional “support” or what have you is kind of pathetic, it’s insanely toxic thing a lot of woman do, maybe without even realizing, but when it’s laid out well, as it was here, and she is still running defence for it, that’s pretty sad to watch.
she is a feminist.. what did you expect? empathy?
Criminals don’t plead guilty unless they know they’ll get away with it faster
If a person gets used man or woman at some point it's your own stupidity. if i liked a guy and he never makes a move I'm not rushing over to be his support or whatever because I have dignity and respect for myself. It's called self esteem.
@@kaybrown7733 I think the problem is that there usually _is_ a move being made. Girls sometimes continue flirting and have skinship with these guys they friendzone because they genuinely like them and otherwise wouldn't mind being in a relationship but are either paranoid the friendship falls apart if the relationship falls through or usually don't have the self-esteem themselves to be their own emotional anchors and not use people they friendzone as their proverbial teddy bears they cry to when their S.O treats them poorly. This, in turn, strings the guy along because he thinks he has a chance to swoop in and make the save or something. It is pretty toxic.
@@sialiasialis. I would never date a male friend because it always ruins the friendship. I think friends and dating is a bad combo. second if she's not actively trying to date you and you think you can swoop in then that's your stupidity. Stop befriending women that you want to date and just be upfront about your intentions. A lot of this is just good sense that people seem not to have.
This woman is an expert at assigning the worst possible motive and interpretation of what men do
men do the same thing tho
@@cairokayani2759 Christopher Hitchens would say the left does
You weren’t listening then
@@vvieites001 sounds like you weren’t listening
@@jaredmello Christopher Hitchens would say the right does.
I hate how so much emphasis is put on the man having to read queues and take hints when sometimes those same queues coming from a different person in a different situation could mean the opposite. For some people, in any given situation (not just sexual), showing signs of being nervous or hesitant could mean they really do not want to do that thing, for other people it could mean they do want to do that thing but need someone to take the lead or need time to handle something first. I’m sure everyone has experienced both sides of that coin at different times and it would be ridiculous to assume that someone, maybe someone you’ve just met, maybe someone you’ve just met while both being intoxicated, could tell the difference between them, and that is assuming they can read that nervousness at all. This would be especially true if many of your prior actions up to that point indicated that you are interested in doing whatever that thing is, or you explicitly voiced interested in doing it.
People are super hesitant to apply any higher standard to a woman’s behaviour in any of these situations because they are normally the victim but the important thing, assuming we actually care, should be teaching people to behave in a way that reduces the chances of anything like this happening, and that absolutely includes how both parties conduct themselves, not just the man. It shouldn’t be rare when reading these cases that a woman gives a clear yes or no answer to a question surrounding sex, it certainly shouldn’t be common that they are told or believe that vague signals, that are clearly open to being read incorrectly, are a substitute for clear communication. It is crazy to hear some of these people talk like a woman’s brain is just completely worthless when sex is involved so the man has to carry the full burden of both of their thoughts and feelings at all times, it’s so pathetic
If a young lady, woman, or whatever is not comfortable enough to not be super-nervous about sex, then they should be left alone.
Have sex with someone else. The risk isn't worth it.
I understand what you are saying and agree that signals can be different for different people. My wife, in fact, would rather me make a move then verbally ask But I make sure I know exactly what the situation is anyway because she still confuses me sometimes. That being said, think through the consequences of ignoring the signals of the girl who is being vague or wants you to push things but won't actually say it. No one is being hurt in the situation where you misread her "signals" and move on. I think the responsibility would be on her to change her signals if she wants a sexual relationship. In short, I think people should only move forward with sexual activities when the signals are clear. It might be awkward for people who aren't good at communicating their desires but it beats the alternative.
100% correct.
@@ianwhite5471 The problem with this idea is it’s all well and good in theory, but with the way existing social norms work, it would essentially erase 85% of a man’s possible perfectly consenting sexual partners who do want to get freaky, but just can’t express it well… kind of an easy ask for the people who aren’t single or minority of women who are very good at communicating desire/setting boundaries.
Realistically, you tell a single inexperienced guy this, he has to learn the hard way that it’s bad advice (say he doesn’t make a move and gets an upset text later from the girl/ she goes around telling people he’s gay), and so he overcorrects and actually does start acting too pushy.
It’s kind of like how D.A.R.E and extreme anti drug rhetoric caused a backlash with kids who grew up hearing bullshit about weed and other less harmful substances being addictive, tried it and realized it wasn’t, so started doing harder stuff figuring they were unfairly demonized as well…
@@3rdCoastAlliance See my other comment for why this axiom is ridiculous and useless.
I am an actual idiot. I've been watching these videos thinking this is Mia Khalifa with a name change, thinking the 'virgin' comments was a comedy bit.
You mean it's not?!
Lmao now I know why I thought she looked familiar. 😂
💀💀💀
This girl would hear someone say "I'm going to slip into something more comfortable." and argue that all they implied was that they just want to put on sweatpants.
Lmaooo 😂
Bro I’m literally getting a headache listening to her. She has no ability to think outside of her woman brain
as a woman I agree 100% with destiny -- having to listen to farha argument back was making my brain bleed out...like how can you not understand a straight forward argument?!
It’s because she lacks the ability to be accountable in public. She feels she would look weak which as a man I do not understand. Men see emotional and social intelligence in other men when they can hold themselves accountable. The same goes with women. It’s a basic trait of a decent human.
@@toshoshi1551 I don't get her at all. Destiny is 100% right if you're just forward there would be no issue. I went out of town with some friends and we ended up meeting a couple women who joined us as we were going bar to bar. To save money it was 5 of us in a hotel room I hit it off with one of the women. She said if you don't want to sleep in a cramped room you can stay with me but nothing more than cuddling would happen. I said sounds 1000 times better than sleeping on a chair and we went to her room. Zero issue we got breakfast in the morning and it was a pleasant interaction. Whatever that was that Destiny read sounds like trying to pogo stick through a mine field while being fired upon by a sniper.
@@molkereis8626 But that is what modern dating in certain circles is. If as man date someone out of that circle then be prepared to walk it. If you arent then dont try to fuck such women. If you date women that are Infantil then dont treat them as equal.
If she isnt clear in her communication then that is a huge red flag and you shouldnt get your dick out. That is what being a responsible adult and a respectable men means.
As a real men you 1. wouldnt have been in the situation he was in and 2. Would have stopped when she said: "Wow lets slow down"
From the conversation around 12:35, I've learned that I am a certified Intellectual Copist. Thanks to this woman and Farha for guiding along such a great convo.
BRUH I did this a LOT when I was early 20s, and Ive had to be super conscious about it to stop.
It's so fucking annoying
Intellectual copist??
@@Mister3Pac The time stamp explains the term
I don’t know how Destiny manages to interact with so many people that can’t understand straightforward points or arguments without a breakdown that makes him sound like he’s speaking to a 10 year old.
Edit: This comment got a lot of upvotes. I’m going to add a dimension of commentary on the topic itself - that a lot of women in these sticky situations might be bad actors AKA they want to have their cake and eat it, too. I understand that these lukewarm sexual engagements are really common on Tinder and in college, but what I’m about to describe also seems pretty common. It’s like the female equivalent of a f*** boy. Drag young guys around, knowing that they have sexual or emotional interest, and then cut them off or blast them for unwanted advances, despite sending those mixed signals the entire time.
There’s no pushback or repercussion for that behavior, it’s usually flagged away as a man misunderstanding a woman’s interests when in fact it’s plain old emotional manipulation gone awry when the man finally either makes a move or cuts her off as a toxic influence.
Most people don’t care for logic conservatives liberal Christian or atheists most people have their systems rooted in some level of emotion
Have you ever gone outside? Most people are stupid af. You really don't interact with logical or intelligent ppl on a daily basis unless your job let's you interact with highly educated professionals
Destinys most argumenst is coming from emotion
Because they subscribe to an ideology
@@gibba2495 biggest cope this year
Literally her entire argument and pushback is just to avoid simply saying "No I don't feel comfortable with this right now"?! Why is that so hard to say please help me understand this
Well i could give you a vitriolic answer but truthfully the current discussions to consent are basically a woman is afraid a man will hurt her if he says no or do something negative there its mans responsibility to mind read and be in charge but not overtly because shes a woman not a infant even if you have to babysit her. Basically most discussions are men are responsible but not in charge of a women's feelings, his own feelings, the qualify and experience of sex but have no power. Inversely women should have all the power but no requirement to commit for anything short of saying it, even then she doesn't have to commit to even her own words.
The sad part is most women in this age group think this.
I feel like many women are playing these "what's the safest way to get out of this" games because of either prior experiences or just general fear. Some people just go with the flow to see how the date goes. The boundary they want to keep may not be something they've concretely set immediately prior to the date. It could be in the moment, "I'm not comfortable with this." You would generally hope/expect the other party to now log this in their brain as a boundary and leave it alone, but that's not always what happens. If a person seems hesitant about something you are doing with/to their body, you should take a step back and ask clarifying questions (get consent). If they don't give a clarifying answer then you don't have consent. You may be confused, but usually, people stop to figure things out when they are confused, not just continue blindly.
I think it is cause many women are thought at a young age to be agreeable & nice. Men are thought to push for s3xual interactions. Recipe for disaster. The "nicer" she tries to reject him is the more he pushes.
@@razzlejazzles the problem with a woman saying "I'm not comfortable with this", is that, it is still unclear why & what she is uncomfortable about, and, most importantly, whether or not I or whoever the guy is in the situation, has the power to change that or not
For example they could be making out, the guy tries to take her clothes off and the girl could physically move his hand away and say "Im not comfortable with this", and the guy fully stops and says "OK, what's making you uncomfortable?"
And she says something about how she doesnt want to have sex with him if he doesnt truly care about her and have feelings for, that she's not interested in being friends with benefits but that she's interested in being more than that. If the guy then talks about how he feels the same way, and that he isnt just looking to have meaningless sex.. Then after that conversation, they might start making out again and eventually have sex because now she isnt uncomfortable anymore
And her answer to being uncomfortable could be completely different and not have anything to do with something that he can change or clarify in that moment. And if that's the case, then that should be made clear. Women attribute men not reading their minds to men being horrible people. I don't think Aziz did anything wrong, up until the point where they go back to the couch fully clothed after she explicitly said no she doesnt want to have sex. After she says no, and they get fully clothed, and go back to couch. Him starting to kiss her again, and trying to undress her again is the wrong thing to do even if she was kissing him back (the article is so poorly written that at many times, they only say what he was doing and not what she was doing. Like, it will say "he kissed" instead of "we kissed" and so its like we as the reader cant tell if that means he's kissing on her neck, arm, body, cheek, etc, or like he's kissing on her lips and she's retracting her neck and head backwards and not kissing him back, or if it means its full on consensual french kissing). And honestly I feel like the interviewer didnt ask those questions, or didnt include it in article, because she knows that more added context like that paints the girl in an even worse light.
The crazy thing is, Aziz actually verbally asked for consent many times where most guys wouldnt have. I feel like on that end he was very considerate. She just didnt like him that much, and she should have left his apartment after getting dressed again instead of going to watch seinfeld.
The most charitable explanation I know of is that a lot of women have had seriously bad experiences when they've said "no" to a man, and even those that haven't had those experiences themselves probably know a woman who has, or have just been socialised to expect that to be the case. So I think a woman can get themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place, where they either say no and risk a potentially aggressive or even violent reaction, or they continue doing something they don't feel comfortable with.
The real solution imo is that BOTH sides need to: a) communicate more clearly; b) be more aware of where their actions might lead, and make sure they're okay with all of those potential outcomes.
I am impressed how easily she can convince herself each time that she has won the discussion
High intelligence, low pattern recognition
@@Dwelleronthethreshold89 what?
@@Dwelleronthethreshold89she does not have high intelligence. And neither do you clearly.
reads as false bravado, but that's just me.
She believes that being calm means that she won the argument.
This is absolutely wild to me. The point that seems to be lost is that whatever generalized advice you want to give men and women regarding these interactions needs to be applicable for DRUNK, horny, inexperienced teenagers. It is never going to work if one party is unable to communicate a clear "no".
Honestly, destiny's advice is pretty solid here. I hate to say it but enthusiastic consent and clear boundaries will eliminate a large portion of these incidents, not ALL of them, but that advice, if followed by enough of these people, would make a difference.
Well, the drunk part was always a bad idea when it comes to young acquaintances & sex. These days, drunken sex seems to have lost status compared to my generation's day; that's a good thing, but it's likely a contributor to a decline in overall sexual experiences among young folks.
@@GomulDart Also, the argument of “But he might get mad” is the biggest red herring here. Frankly speaking, if you’re drunk and DONT want to sleep with someone….
YOU DONT GO BACK TO YOUR PLACE WITH THEM AFTER HOURS 😂😂 but let’s be 100% honest….
We all knew that already 😂❤
@@Macheako And on the other Hand dont take somebody to your home that doesnt communicate clearly.
@@heinshaaine8153Both groups of people should keep in mind the one of these recommendations that directly applies to them.
When you blame your friend for your choices you failed the accountability test.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to defend against the "Destiny brings on dumb egirls he wants to bang knowing they will humiliate themselves" arguments
That's because there's no reason to defend it. It's just what he does.
😭😭😭
That's just what happens man
@@Zach0451 i mean, if you were in his position, would you not?
@@nicelypenn I probably wouldn't, not because I'm too good for that sort of thing, but because I have no rizz
This is what I’ve learned from this interaction as an agreeable woman-
I am not going into any man’s house without feeling like they are someone I feel comfortable being assertive/direct with.
I can’t speak for this woman but I know when I’m with someone I’m interested in I have a harder time maintaining my interest in the negotiation. Knowing this I should put up some safeguards for myself so I don’t leave resenting how the interaction went.
HESUS CHRIST THANK YOUUUUU ❤❤❤😂
When these girls say “he might get mad…” I’m just like “and at what point was BEING ALONE with a man like that…..smart?”
❤😂
@@Macheako Sometimes our psychic abilities are wobbly because of our silly hormones and we don’t always figure out who’s gonna r&m us until you know after. Literally it would be nice if it was just written on yer foreheads. But alas we are test pilot guinea pigs & even when all the signs are good (nice behaviors are amazingly able to be faked) it can go pretty bad. Then in retrospect we are blamed for being in a room with “a guy like that”. Most assaults are by guys the victim knew. Meaning they did all the things necessary to convince her being alone with them was safe.
Sure, you may be a “good guy” but how do I know that? Seriously. How do I KNOW that? I don’t. And remember, if you are a decent human you don’t think like a predator. Therefore don’t attribute to a predator your “normal” interpretations of their behavior. They camouflage themselves with plausible deniability. They push boundaries to find weakness.
The “smart” answer to your riddle is that we should never be alone in a room with any man. Then we will be safe & not blamed.
@@pebrablue "Sometimes our psychic abilities are wobbly because of our silly hormones"
Just wait till you hear the disorienting power of testosterone. It's one helluva hormone!
@@Bertinator-nm9ld man with testosterone "mee want fuk!"
Ugh... it feels like some of these women genuinely don't want agency in these situations... like a date is like a plane trip, and there is nothing you can do but hope the pilot doesn't kill you.
lmao true. But dont ever say this in public if you dont want sjw pirahanas to swarm u
Bruh, my problem is I've been told let's pump the brakes before and took it as a no, and the woman was pissed at me the next day. She told me she just wanted more foreplay.
God!!!!!!!!!!!! Can women EVERERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR be straight forward? 😂😂😂
Why not say “sex is a little far, but what about…..BJs?” 😂😂😂
Bruh it wasn’t ur fault lol
Experiences like this make me think Colleges need consent classes for women.
@1:38:00 ~
I can get Destiny's frustration.
He's asking for red light green light, and she's giving nothing but it's always a flashing yellow caution light. Everything can work out perfect, that still means caution yellow light.
Nailed it. She seems to think this insane level of ambiguity just doesn't manage to contaminate the signal. How???
This honestly happened to me and it perfectly depicts the severity with which women give mixed signals.
I was dating a girl i met on my country's equivalent of tinder.
We met up in her place and we already had sex once or twice by the time this happened.
She was sitting on top of me and kinda hinted for me to just put my hands on her and gently rub her skin or whatever.
Every time i moved towards a more sexual area of her body she pushed my hands away which was weird to me but she also always wanted me to continue touching her by taking my hands and placing them on her again.
In the end she told me that she wanted to give me blue balls so hard that, and i quote here " you overpower me and dominate me so i feel r*ped, because thats what sexually gets me going".
At that point i knew what i had to do and i tried to be more dominant but i was REALLY disturbed and uncompfortable to the point we ended the whole dating and broke up.
I was not able to hurt her so i did absolutely not know how to be dominant without being physically violant.
I assume this is absolutely rare .
I hope this is ablolutely rare.
But the fact that this was one of the only few sexual encounters i had in my life really fucked up my ability to read any signals and interprete them correctly.
Like how am i ever supposed to know if someone is suggestive if THAT is a possibility.
Note also that this awkward situation continued for waht felt like an eternity to me.
She really hoped i would "lose control" but it "gladly?" never happened.
She's crazy and I hope you don't take that experience to other woman. Women are not a monolith.
people need to talk about this and it would be fine. Stop trying to read the women, ask clear questions and if you don't know each other it is okay to be more soft than the opposite. Although many women want to get dominated but are to shy to say it.
That doesn't mean try it, it means find out trough talking to each other and asking subtile questions that can reveal it. Or don't ask if it would be to direct, just explain a scenario or things you like and look how she reacts.
Lessen the likelihood of getting another crazy woman like that by meeting women in what was considered normal for thousands of years before the internet, social media and dating apps: the real world. Not at nightclubs, not at alcohol and drug infested parties. Consider your workplace, set ups from good friends and family, your local community groups, any place where sex is not the obvious intent as to why people are present in that place.
Don't worry brother, I Have had multiple short relationships, where the girl enjoyed what I would consider abusive signals and invitations of sex.
One girl really enjoyed the 'rape' fantasy so much that she considered me tame when I just wanted to enjoy normal sexual relations.
@@parasoul26 the rape fantasy is as old as time, where do you think the submissive nature of that turn on came from, self preservation.
The biggest issue apparent here in why Destiny’s friend can’t argue with him properly is because she is arguing from a hindsight is 20/20 perspective while Destiny is not. She’s leaning on knowing that woman’s state of mind while Destiny is arguing that no one could know her state of mind in the moment, which is valid. Unfortunately Destiny your friend doesn’t seem to be able to divorce herself from the knowledge gifted to her from the woman in the article to understand where your coming from
True. She needs to play some DnD and learn what metagaming is.
Saying "lets chill," could easily mean "lets take it slower." As in "I want to keep going but I prefer a reduced phase."
Oh, you want to chill? Let me get you an Uber home. Obviously!
Exactly. Especially when it was preceded with the dude going to grab a condom. She could have said: "Lets stop." She said "chill". That is definitely ambiguous enough that anybody could be confused. Especially when a simple "No" is on the table.
And I hate it when I read things like "All of a sudden my clothes were off" or "Before I knew it, he had removed my clothes". That shit can happen fairly quickly, but it's never instant. If you don't want to have sex, why are you not stopping your clothes from coming off?
2 women debating feminism, my FAVORITE pastime!
I thought there was only 1 female. You're telling me the guest was also a female?
True!
Damm You like man too
Don't assume his gender he clearly identifies as sonic
the chick with dark hair has bigger tackle
And this is how arguing in bad faith is like guys. Something happened, could be for 5-10 reasons, she only acknowledges the 1-2 that favors her point, act like they are super clear and the other ones are super unlikely or dumb. Specially triggers Destiny because he knows that no matter what happens, the dude always will take the hit.
Even with his analogy of the dude getting Friendzoned (knowing or not knowing) the dude always takes the hit. She doesn't care, nor she will acknowledge there is malice from the other part "liking the attention". She even calls it "babysitting his feelings" ... good lord.
My grandfather got fleeced by a young woman who got him to pay for her college and cars and shit. There is a lot more to Friendzoning than just "liking the attention."
The friendzoned example was absurd. In both stories the male wanted to F and the female didn't want to. And the females had to be the ones to make the decision ... block friendship/leave apartment.
BUT Destiny said the man in the hypothetical represented the female in the Aziz story... that's just illogical.
@@deach5254 Yes, so do you also believe that "relax and chill means no and stop?" Must've be a new definition since no dictionary has updated their definitions.
@@cabbagedestroyer1693 There is no "so do you also..."
But in any case. No i don't, it also doesn't mean yes and go.
@@deach5254 They are not at all the same. In the first situation the guy just wants to smash and in success he is getting what he wants from her at a cost to her if she isn't actually wanting it and due to her lack of boundaries he got it. In the second case the guy wants a romantic relationship not just sex and she wants emotional labour from him and she is getting what she wants at cost to him since he doesn't actually want to be "just friends" so she is taking advantage of his lack of boundaries.
The analogy really isn't that hard, but I guess just like her there are plenty of people that can't understand even simple analogies. Either that or they don't want to because it would counter their arguments.
Communication is fascinating as a subject. That's what I am getting from this conversation. I've tried to see from the pov of Farha and treat her arguments as made in good faith. And I was mind blown. Basically she says that the man needs to be responsible for everything- needs to have self control under all circumstances, needs to read the mind of a woman. And the responsibility of the woman is at the most being a bit clearer with her boundaries. And it's really only "a bit" because, as Farha said- saying "woah, let's chill" means "I don't want to have sex tonight".
As soon as “whoa let’s chill” becomes universally accepted as “No”, they just gonna start using the excuse “I was afraid to just tell him ‘whoa let’s chill’ cuz he may of gotten mad” 😂❤
Why are you guys fighting so hard against "no means no"
Hmm I see where you’re coming from and it’s clear most of the comment section agrees. But I’m actually surprised some of this seems so strange? I think it’s because, in my experience, an emotional exchange isn’t necessarily a romantic one. I would like to have an emotional connection with my romantic partner, but not all of my emotional connections are romantic partners. I share a lot of those deep, emotional parts of myself with family and close friends. So to me it’s hard to fathom why that would translate to a guy as an inclination towards a romantic relationship or interest in the way a woman walking around with little clothing on would be (which I definitely agree is suggestive). I’m wondering if this is just one of those areas where I agree with Destiny that men and women are just on totally different pages on this. Same thing with not registering hesitation and rather, transforming that into approval but just with more steps, like the girl going as far as oral s** but still demonstrating hesitation because she doesn’t want to be perceived as a sl**. In my mind, like Destiny said, any form of hesitation is VERY clear to me and I am therefore very aware of when I disregard it.
I don’t disagree that this is what men might be thinking, but it’s certainly news to me and is far from how I or most of the women (arguably people) in my life operate. But I guess the majority of my inner circles aren’t made up of young and single men looking for a relationship with me, could just be a lack of experience. 🤷🏽♀️
This conversation is so stupid... The entire issue is Farha is saying stuff like "oh she doesnt wanna say NO because everyone feels a certain type of way when we hear NO and shes trying to spare him that" ... but that is the exact issue... its true everyone does feel a certain type of way when they hear 'no'.. that feeling is rejection, and the guy HAS to feel rejected because that is the reality of the situation, he IS being rejected... if he doesnt feel rejected then in his mind, he is not being rejected, our feelings dictate our thoughts... the guys feelings have to align with the situation for him to understand the situation... just because a girl doesnt want to be the one to make him feel that way, doesnt mean she is absolved of the responsibility, shes the ONLY person who can tell him no in that situation so she has to do it... it sucks, but a lot of things suck when it comes to relationships and hookups and dates and sex and flings etc... if a girl doesnt do her job of saying NO, then the guy is left with a situation where he has to interpret other signs, and he may suck at it or just not have the experience for correct interpretation.... not saying it would be the girls fault if something happens after that, but it does mean they did not fulfill their responsibility to the situation
Destiny's scenario that a woman should "babysit" her male friend's emotions who she has friendzoned as analogous to a man who should "babysit" a woman's feelings during sex is correct.
Khalidi kept saying those 2 scenarios are not comparable because the woman in the Ansari scenario said "wow, let's chill", and Khalidi kept implying over and over again that "let's chill" is equivalent to saying no. But it just isn't for men, as Destiny pointed out. Her argument is that it is equivalent to saying "no" for a woman because a woman might be afraid of saying "no" to a man, therefore "let's chill" should be understood as "no" by default.
But Khalidi doesn't seem to realize that she is then asking the man to treat the woman with special consideration, because she is a woman and might therefore act differently from a man (again, for a man "let's chill" is not equivalent to "no"). So she is effectively asking the man *not* to treat the woman as someone who is on an equal position to him, but as someone who is in a more vulnerable position, because of the difference in strenght (or because women tend to be more agreeable and dislike saying no to people directly) 1:13:12/1:15:53/1:16:34. She is expecting the man to have the special consideration that she might be afraid to say no, because he has the (physical) leverage. And that's precisely Destiny's point: the woman who friendzones the guy should also realize as well that she has the (emotional) leverage over the guy and therefore that they are not on an equal position, and she should therefore have the special consideration of being the sensible adult in the room. And this is true because a lot of men are lonely and don't have as many options as their female friends, so the guy can be in an emotionally vulnerable situation that clouds his judgement relative to the woman.
And maybe a woman reading this comment might not empathize with the friendzone scenario, but I have seen it many times. A man takes his female "friend" to places she wants to go to, takes her shopping, carries her bags, gives her emotional support and validation, etc. Because the guy is lonely, has been lonely for a long time, is attracted to her, and doesn't have hope of getting other women. So that guy is not going to end the relationship because that is the closest thing he has to having a woman in his life. So in his mind he is going to justify the situation, even though she is getting her needs met and he is not. I have seen it over and over again, and it is not healthy. And usually the women know what's up, they just choose to ignore it because they are comfortable with the way things work in that friendship (I actually know a woman who had that type of relationship with a guy I know and she would actively avoid being alone with him when they were drinking because she was afraid he would tell her his feelings explicitly while drunk, which would force her to reject him explicitly and make it uncomfortable for her to continue the friendship. So she knew the whole time the guy had feelings for her and still pretended she didn't know and let him take her shopping, give her emotional validation, etc).
And if you still don't see how those two things are analogous, think about a more explicit and extreme version of it: BDSM. In dominance-submissive relationships in which the man is the dominant one, even if the woman has agreed to it, there is a high risk of the woman not feeling comfortable saying no and feeling violated afterwards. The line that separates that from actual abuse can be unbelievably thin. Likewise in findom (or just regular onlyfans), it can be argued that in many cases lonely and desperate men are being manipulated psychologically and emotionally for their money (exploited or abused). Like the guy in the friendzone, those men justify that toxic and asymmetric relationship in their heads.
So as Destiny said, ideally men should be extra careful with women when it comes to sex if women seem even a bit ambivalent, and women should be extra careful with men when men seem emotionally attached to (or romantically interested in) them when it comes to friendships (or babysit, as Khalidi puts it). Women should also be more clear (more explicit) with their boundaries and intentions. The problem is that those things can be hard for both sexes and the incentives often don't help.
btw, as an aside, it is extremely annoying that in these discussions men's mental processes always have to be framed purely as either morally wrong or just dumb, while women's mental processes are framed as purely defensive. Men have reasons for their behavior that make sense in their situation as men, and women also have reasons for their behavior that make sense in their situation as women (even though both men and women often don't understand the opposite sex's reasons). Those reasons don't always justify their actions in every scenario, but there is still a reason behind the general behavior. But it seems we almost always have to either frame men's reasons as negative or pretend their reasons don't exist or are not valid, because if we don't a lot of women react as if we were justifying all bad male behavior.
A lot of women refuse to accept men's reasons because in their minds if they accept the reasons behind the behavior as valid that would justify men's actions in every case, which is not true. And they also seem to think that if they admit that women's (valid) reasons don't justify a woman's behavior in a particular case, that opens the door for dismissing women's reasons every time, which isn't true either.
In the Ansari scenario, for example, I understand the woman could have been afraid to say no, and that's a perfectly valid reason. And he was bad at reading her, agreed. But she still acted extremely dumb by giving mixed signals to the guy. It was dumb to go to his house after the date if she didn't want to give the impression that she wanted sex, because as an adult she should know that men rely on those types of objective signals to guess women's intentions. And she was dumb for performing oral sex on him if she didn't want to keep misleading him. And if she, as an adult, knows she can be potentially afraid to say no in such scenarios, it's her responsability not to put herself in that position unless she is sure she wants to. It's not fair to give mixed signals to a man who relies on those signals to guess her intentions and then call him an abuser when he misinterprets them (not saying that Ansari wasn't too pushy, he was, but that doesn't deserve the public humiliation of the article, imo).
And yet I am halfway through the video and Khalidi so far has not granted a single point Destiny made about that, even though he granted many of her points. And it seems to me that she is so reluctant to concede those points because she just doesn't want to open the door to questioning women's mistakes in sexual scenarios, because that in her mind would be equivalent to victim blaming and excusing male perpetrators of sexual abuse. But by doing that she is being very partial and unfair. At least that's the impression I get so far. I mean it's either that or she just genuinely can't comprehend the male side of the situation. Either way I would love for her to explain what responsibility she thinks adult women should have in those types of scenarios to avoid misleading men, and prevent the escalation of unwanted sex. Because she is explaining what she thinks men's responsability should be, and fair enough, but what responsability do women have?
I'm not reading all that, but I'll like the comment just because it seems you put a lot of effort in it
Damn man you wrote a novel
"Read More" HOLY SHIT
As soon as you said women are more sensible adult than men because of the emotional leverage I stopped. Brother how are they more sensible when they are more emotional. Not everyone is a simp like you.
I wish I had the dedication and drive to write as much as you did.
so she thinks if a girl does sexual acts and says lets chill, the guy should think no sex?
That's what I think she said.
In reality it took both of them 30 minutes to realise that the “let’s chill” was in response to him getting the condom, not to him kissing her. Destiny didn’t realise this either for an entire 30 minutes on the stream. She also admitted very quickly that she misinterpreted it once both of them realised what happened.
Yeah lol that part was ridiculous
“Let’s chill” in this scenario could so easily be interpreted as meaning “I need way more foreplay than that man, get me warmed up”.
I’ve heard women say that. It obviously depends on how she says it and other cues but from my experience it usually means she wants more foreplay. Women typically need more of a “build up” and Anziz was going way too fast which fucked up the mood probably.
Um, yeah, and why would it be otherwise? This sort of thing especially on a first date when you literally know almost nothing about the person is a fluid experience in totally unknown territory. You don't get to say "you did thing X 5 minutes ago, so now I get to do whatever I want to you." If a woman is no longer cool with something it doesn't matter what happened before. The fact that you and others like you don't understand this is why this conversation has to keep happening.
she still approaches this from a stance that allows her to get sex when she wants it.
"a guy can't get sex" is not malice, it's factual. it's not inherent feeling of entitlement, it's desire
and her saying a man answering the phone for a unwanted trauma dump in the hope that he'll fulfill the role she is SEARCHING for...is insidious..
Tbh I don't really think she's coming from bad faith, in fact I think both her and destiny kinda exaggerate the behavior of a average guy in a sexual encounter. I think destiny was generally more on point but she's right that better social awareness on the man's part is essential if you don't want to get in trouble
@@Stardustphantom97 But not on the womens part?
@Lmao imagine thinking they’re trying to adhere to a logic
@cvmkid26 you think she would ever be good faith after her "they were all women" comment in the beginning?
@RanEncounter ideally yes but if she's being apprehensive then it's better to disengage entirely. It's not easy but it's the best we can do in this dating landscape
This was a wild listen. Feels like major disconnect is the guest was focused on how things as they ought to be, and destiny was focused on things as they currently are.
Destiny is making a lot of really good points in this video. Farha made some good points too. Farha did struggle with making her argument in a general sense because she really struggled making a correlation between the two scenarios. Emotional babysitting is expected in both cases for the person with the leverage.
It feels like it's impossible for her to see anything from the perspective where a woman might have to take some responsibility for her actions and a man might feel confused and vulnerable. In every instance, men are perpetrators and women are victims. No exceptions.
It's very clear that proactive = at fault according to her and men are expected to be proactive.
Please explain what you mean?
exactly. double standard!
You expect too much from an influencer
Yeah !!! the bare minimum of responsibility
I feel like she’s being purposefully obtuse the entire time. Very frustrating
Genuine question, how do you know? It was posted 5 minutes ago. Did you watch the stream I guess
Yup that’s women for you
@@SASMADBRUV7 You answered your own question.
@@SASMADBRUV7 from the RUclips stream. I watched part of this from that stream so I'm familiar with a decent bit of the conversation. She did kinda seem obtuse but I understand her position, though I disagree.
The sexual harassment didn't seem so sinister from the description and it seemed like she saw it as so.
But still I only saw about 45 minutes of it in the live stream so I may learn something critical. 👍
@@SASMADBRUV7 I finished the VOD like 2hrs ago lol
As soon as her voice being similar to Lav was mentioned, I just couldn't unhear it, it's so true lol.
TRUUUUUU
Not only the voice is similar, the IQ Level too.
default brain dead online voice.
usually paired with a high dose of smugness and a poor grasp of reality.
@@GiIford u mean they both have 130 iq right ?
@@DavidJones-ot8qu That‘s exactly what I meant. While we are thinking in galaxies they are thinking in universes.
We, women are way more innocent and clueless about men's way of interpreting situations, we have to stop thinking they see things the same way we do, it only creates those confusing & awkward moments
sarcasm on point
This goes both ways but it's definitely only talked about when men mess up
Agreed. The problem is that women continue to naively assume men are acting in good faith, which is fucking wild given how they literally give away their manipulative playbook. Obviously, they are just trying to fuck and will push the boundaries whenever possible. Aziz was being a coercive dickhead, but he did the same thing about 99% of men would do in his position.
@@mockingbird993 christ your view of men is horrible.
Innocent has literally nothing to do with it ❤ us men would be “innocent” too if it was 😂❤
To be clear, after the boundary was set as they were just about to have sex, they never had sex. Once returning to the couch and watching Seinfeld while fully clothed, Aziz attempted to do more making out and foreplay like they did earlier, not attempting to violate the boundary which was just set moments ago about sex. This lady keeps framing that this later action was attempted R and destiny tried but did a poor job calling her out on it.
Kinda but not really. It really depends on the situation. In this situation, when she finally explicitly said no and the stopped everything and put their clothes back on and didn’t continue making out, I think it’s a bit more unreasonable to expect that making out was still on the table. It’s one of those things where if you squint really hard and tilt your head, you can kind of see the reasoning behind it but that’s giving a whole truckload of charitability. At the end of the day, it may or may not be sexual assault but it was definitely a bonehead move.
I feel like destiny let's her off to easly at the end. Throughout the whole conversation the girl position was that you can just make out, and it doesn't neccesarly leads/guarantees sex. And the hard "no" wasn't to kissing, but the sex. After which, they returned to only kissing, so he respected her boundry
Every conversation like this does the redpillers work for them.
destiny probably chose to give up the point on purpose considering how bad faith she was being about everything else, but the most triggering part about this for me is that sexual assault somehow always trumps emotional manipulation. Every time she said it, I wanted to bang my head against a wall. It's pretty clear to me that no matter how many times women claim men should be more in touch with their emotions, they don't really care about it all. In fact, it just feels like they're always waiting for an opportunity to explain why male emotions just don't matter that much in the grand scheme
Yeah, it's a complete double standard. Like when a woman is sexually coerced because she didn't set any boundaries, that's traumatizing and deserves empathy, but when a guy is rejected over and over again, that's not the kind of emotional distress to take seriously, he should man up and deal with it.
However, I do think this is very much a US/online problem. In my region no woman thinks like that, a lot of them can set boundaries and take men's issues really seriously. Remember that folks
Lmao do you think sexual assault doesn't trump emotional manipulation?
@@firebreathercat133 not inherently in any capacity. there is absolutely nothing that makes a stealthing situation more impactful than years of being led on, unironically. one feels worse because it carries the weight and implication of physicality and violence, but that feeling is irrelevant
Sexual assault does trump emotional manipulation. Both are bad. But if you don’t see one as obviously worse… you got issues. These false equivalencies people make are so braindead
You're really comparing getting raped to being led on ? Seriously this is ridiculous
"The responsibility is on herrrr.", yes, unironically, literally. I'm a woman, my parents raised me by speaking to me directly. If a guy invites me to his home alone, I'm not going, even if he's just a friend. On a date even less so. You have to be direct, because guys can't read your mind. Put strict limits and be forcible, it's actually not complicated.
thank you very much for taking your parents' advice.
Respect for being clear and direct
You can still invite people over one on one, even as a woman, but if you’re retarded then it’s better to never invite people over one on one. There just needs to be communication before hand. If you don’t trust them to not push boundaries or literally rape you, then why are you friends? If it’s a first or even a couple dates along, then it’d make sense to not invite them back to your place because there’s nowhere to leave. If you go to his then you could leave at any point if he gets too pushy. If he gives off rapey vibes, then don’t go anywhere with them
THIS IS SO CRAAZY!!!!!!! she was already blowing him??!?!?!?!?
@@ItsMe-cp8xc This type of thinking seems to just ignore all of the stories like what happened in the video. If I had a nickel for every time a girl told me that she had a sexual encounter that she wasn't comfortable with, I would be pretty fantastically rich. Similarly, most sexual assault is performed by people that you know, not by strangers and it usually happens close to your home.
I understand as a man you think that way, but women (like myself) need to be more pragmatic and understand social cues. This also isn't to say that there aren't good guys in the world, some really do just want to bring you over and show their video game collection and watch Netflix, but the majority of them? No, they think they're about to get lucky, and they're going to try every single trick in the book to do it, including begging, moping, throwing tantrums, guilt trips -- I won't even go on longer than this other than to say: I've grown up a woman, I talk to many women, and even though I've never been in a relationship or had sex, I know what guys are like.
Very odd and frustrating conversation. She essentially followed the same pattern the entire time.
“Well, did he mean (insert what he said) OR did he mean (insert something not even tangentially related to what he said)?”
Almost like she was insinuating all this confusion was a result of….
INDIRECT COMMUNICATION 😂😂😂
Comparing sexual assault to leading someone on is crazy.
If the difference between an awkward moment and a traumatic SA that will affect you for the rest of your life is simply an assertive 'No'... People should really be screaming from the roof tops begging women to be better at asserting boundaries and catching cues they're unintentionally giving off.
Frustrating Shit.. partied with a girl all night, we made out, when we got to my apartment she was hesitant so I took it as a no.. the next day she was like "why didn't you keep going!"
to this day I still regret not going for it..
we where friends... I was not able to read her
guys SUCK at reading girls signals because girls are not direct enough.. guys need a hammer over the head
Don’t. She was the weird one. A lot of women appreciate that.
@@catheriney6209 huh no any woman who actually wants to have sex wouldn't appreciate it.
@@catheriney6209 The thing is she’s not weird. That’s like, most women. You’re the weird one just based on the numbers. That said, always assume maybe is no, it’s not worth the risk.
@@catheriney6209 online yes, but in real life it’s probably 50/50. A lot of people think they have to play these games and have to play hard to get. It doesn’t make it right but there really is not clear way to differentiate them.
better safe than sorry
The article they read after this was viscerally unpleasant, and the fact that she liked it made her total dismissal of men’s feelings in situations like these less surprising
The patience of this blue haired man.
woman.
Women😊
I feel like Farha conflated an explanation for a justification so many times, just because you're explaining someone's actions/mind state doesn't necessarily mean you're justifying them
I almost killed myself watching this video hooooooly, just how patient is Destiny!
Aziz and the woman were literally both acting like teens during their dating process like it was their first time. The only thing that means no is the word NO. Anything else could be signaling. Men and women need to talk about sex before having it and both need to be explicit in their attentions. If you can't do this you are a child, man or women.
She’s so dense….
Why can’t she just admit…”the girl needs to say something”
On one hand, they want ENTHUSIASTIC consent. Then giving the subtlest of subtle signals most people won’t pick up on then all of the sudden that’s enough to end an encounter.
No clear communication at all.
She did say it would be better if the girl said something.
@@meltedsnowman9637 And still claiming the communication was clear as day.
For me annoying thing is totally different standard applied to both parties. She treat that man as an adult, and treat the woman as an undeveloped child. She's totally biased.
women are trained from age 0 to avoid responsibility why would they suddenly change in their 20s after being put on a pedestal their entire lives
Seeing men flirt with women while trying to appear as though they're not flirting is one of my least favorite things to watch.
This is literally the stream. Her pretending to be dense and Destiny trying to spoon-feed her some basic social concepts which she proceeds to overcomplicate 🙄
@@vincerobinson2864 I don't think this is at all what the original comment was talking about.
Did I just watch 2+ hours of Destiny and this girl flirting, but disguised as an "intense" debate? I need to reassess my life choices.
i scrolled these comments for so long trying to find somebody else who thought the same thing as me to make sure i'm not insane. thank you.
The fact that they're taking this long to make their points proves that it was confusing or at least that there is a high probability.
The pulling the hand away from dick while youre having this interaction can absolutely be seen as playful. Especially when you bring in the fact they were running around the apartment and shit. Playing hard to get, being playful is pretty normal the first time or when youre new to someone.
I think a lot of this shit is just really contextual. Like, I've never really had questions of whether a girl is into me or not by the point we've been making out or something because her body language would've let me to that conclusion and usually the girls I've been with have made it really obvious when they're enjoying it. I think if you're an open book and can joke and converse with each other the rest follows pretty easily. I think we forget that it's weird making strangers into friends straight away in the first place, let alone when you're trying to fuck that stranger. I'd just tell my fellow dudes to have a little patience and get to know her and let her feel safe a little first. If you gotta just hang with her in bed and watch movies for the first night it won't kill you. Her seeing you're attentive and chill and running the weird paranoid risk you conjured up she'll think you a pussy nice-guy is a hell of a lot better than her seeing you as a pussy desperate creep.
for Destiny, its easier to follow Jordan's advice an clean his room - there's always 3 people in there to do it.
Fresh & Fit got 500 new fans after this convo lol
"Everyone feels a certain type of way when they're told no."
That's that whole point, Farha, when you say "no" to someone it grabs their attention. Women need to normalize using the word no in these situations and drawing clear boundaries. No more soft rejection bullshit, just make it clear and unambiguous.
At 9:30, did you have to censor "stupid" for women, but not men?!? You can call men stupid but not women?
I noticed that too. Yeah, basically.
OK frame it this way. "What if it wasn't a guy trying to talk a girl into sex. What if you walked into a Verizon store and some sales clerk talked you into buying a $1500 phone?"
I feel like a closer comparison would be if a sales clerk talked you into buying a phone and you got up to the register, decided you didn't want to buy the phone and the clerk jumped across the counter stole your money and gave you the phone.
@Tom Walker it's very simple, find me a dictionary in any language that says "relax and chill" means "no and stop"
@@cabbagedestroyer1693 context is the most important part of language. If I just gave you the words "Dude, you're sick" without the context you would never be able to tell me whether I meant it as a weirdly casual doctor telling his patient he's unwell, or whether I'm a skateboarder talking to another skateboarder who just did a cool trick.
So, the argument here can never be "Can relax and chill mean no and stop?" because that is an argument you will never win, the answer is obviously yes it can. It has to be, "Does relax and chill in this context mean no and stop?" and that's a question to which we'll probably never get the answer to because we can't actually see the events that took place that night. Given how ambiguous the situation seems even through HER OWN ONE SIDED TELLING OF THE STORY COMPLETE WITH HER OWN THOUGHTS AND PERCEPTION OF EACH INDIVIDUAL EVENT, I would say, it's probably pretty safe to say that "relax and chill" did NOT firmly imply "I do not want to be doing ANY of this with you right now" in that context, no. Relax and chill can absolutely mean that in other contexts, though.
@@carcarcarcarcarkiddead no a closer comparison would be if a sales clerk was showing you a product and you were saying ambiguous shit like this aint gonna break right? or my wife gonna be mad if I buy this but never said you don't wanna buy and at some point the clerk takes your credit card and goes to bill you but you say no and they give it back to you. After which they show you some other products but you don't buy any and at the end the clerk says well if you ain't gonna buy anything then get the fuck out which you should have done the moment you decided you didn't wanna buy anything but you kept wasting their time.
@@insomaniacsblank432 lmao. thank you
Like, imagine walking into a verizon store, and then getting mad that the employees keep coming up talking to you to try and sell you on something.
Her TikToks are the same hate bait you see red pill men putting out.
Highly viewed content designed to lure I'm sad, lonely men, where they create or hyper specifically select for the WORST women they can find and ask them leading questions to bring out their worst opinions and then turn to the camera and say "Look, guys, look what all women are like!" Like and follow for more!
She does thr same thing, but with men, she strawmans a male character and has him say a bunch of mean things, then turns to the camera and says "Look, girls. Look what all men are like!".
... She also has all the charisma and social skills of a pet rock without the cute, stick on eyes.
I feel like the content she makes is her saying things that I see plenty of men say online all the time. Obviously not ALL men, but she’s making fun of pretty classic redpill type statements which a lot of young women are exposed to.
I feel like personally when I’ve delved into the redpill community the things they act like women say are way more outlandish and are rarely reactions to people trying to spread an ideology and more just interviewing drunk girls outside a club about body count.
I can see where you’re coming from, and it could be same for the redpill community. But at the same time her videos are making fun of things that I’ve seen redpill men say online 728384847 times and Ik other women have too.
@@pikits196 But the reason the redpill is so successful (even though I don't agree with it in the slightest) is that pretty much every claim they make is reinforced by dumb shit some women say online. You could make the argument for both types of content.
I don't think that women consume this content and think "these are the type of men to avoid", they could also come away with the thought "oh wow, this is how men are".
I'm not saying both are equally toxic btw, the redpill is worse.
@@pikits196 Make no mistake, the reason the redpill exists is because of women like her.
That’s why she wears comically large glasses…..
She’s made a plastic 😂
@@Lolerburger It’s not
In the dog example boundaries were set beforehand. It was "Do not eat food, when I am not in the room" and "Do not eat food until i give you command" I hope that girl realises that
So many of the comments are stemming from a previous friendzone burn. Also the word unsophisticated is the dumbest convoluted word to use in the context that JP did.
I thought it was an odd choice as well. It sounded like a nicer way of calling them stupid
@@caio9242 shy/scared
@@asimhussain8716 sophisticated is a very bad choice. In fact it is a "typical of Peterson" bad choice.
You actually proved my point from the get go with your unsophisticated argument, pun intended, you just don't know it yet.
Peterson has a track record of addressing his self help, generic advice seeking youtube audience, the way he addressed his academic audience back in the days with his first book. This is precisely why it doesn't work and often has the opposite effect. He goes infront of some young guys struggling to get laid and starts rumbling about postmodernist marxists? No it doesn't fly. It is suitable for some academics debating Foucaults believes over a glass of wine after lectures. Maybe a paper. Nevertheless if you drop this niche borderline conspiratorial phrase infront of the general public, you will only confuse them and fuel a messy debate of people who repeat blindly and amplify in sometimes unpredictable directiona. Oh the marxists, yeah they are postmodrnists. The end result of his phrasing is complete confusion. Counter productive to the fullest.
Using the word sophistication has exactly the same effect. Oh yeah women who get r worded are just...you know a bit on the goofy side, a bit on the silly side, a bit...you know "unsophisticated". And from there, this ambiguous word is turned into...well anything. Because it is ambiguous. Because it is incomplete definition. Because there is no elaboration. It could mean lack of understanding of a social situation. It could mean lack of understanding of concent. It could be completely different then lack of understanding, it couls be lack of experience, naivety so to speak. Or something completely different. There is so much to why a woman who doesn't want to have sex will not say it firmly, but will hint it mildly. Slapping the vague term Unsophisticated is precisely as dumb, quite frankly this is the exact word such mistake deserves, as boiling down a very broad and nuanced theory of progressive values pushed on the general young population via the academia, to the ambiguous, vague and oxymoronic term postmodern marxists. It is dumb and also it is dangerous.
What reaches his the audience is often unpredictable because of his poor phrasing. Which is classical Jordy. All this is evident by the fact he wrote about the monstrosities of the 20th century, just to become inspirational figure of many alt right figures. Wording is not his strong side and certainly not wording that works outside of academia. Which is litherally what you tried to use as an insult, without realising you are cornering yourself with this argument. "Oh but psychologists get it lol" only mean his message is not suitable for his audience. Armchair psychologists is who Peterson needs to conversate with and who has been the recipient of his mesaages, ever since he broke from the university circles. Which again is Petersons problem. He should have stayed in the realm of writing jungian inspired papers.
it's insane that a 2 minute clip turned into a 2 hour conversation
Rule number 1: the moment a woman says anything along the line of “no”. Get your clothes on and leave or tell her to get the fuck out
Will save you every time
Exactly. In this current climate, take no chances.
sadly not even that will be good enough these days
I agree. Especially until women learn to communicate more maturely.
However I think there could be another reason aside from avoiding a rape accusation. I would personally just do it to save face at the very least. If a guy was giving me ambiguous vibes, I would leave simply because I wouldn't want someone to lukewarm and begrudgingly decide to give me what I want for some reason, despite not really wanting it as well. Yikes. And if he wanted it and gave the wrong signals, that's on him
To feminists this actually isn’t good enough anymore, it’s yes means yes, and she has to continually be giving verbal consent.
Lol imagine every time while having intercourse you have to ask for consent to touch and kiss her anywhere.
this video takes atleast 15 times longer because of her damn interupting
I could be wrong but here’s my two cents.
1. Someone is Farha’s family or her life in general has been seriously oppressed for a long period of time. That could be cold read via her take on martial R. The same as you can see a certain lifestyle influence on the F&F guys as well. An oppressed mind is more than ever always an insecure mind. So I am not that surprised. Awareness, perspective and experiences can however help things change.
2. I highly doubt if Farha has actually ever been out with one guy (or any guys) on an actual date/romantic endeavour. A lot of her rhetorics and theories would go out of the park when she actually steps out and seeks a romantic meeting with the opposite sex. Being involved with a woman in a lesbian relationship is the same as a guy seeing other guys. It does not need much understanding of the term ‘social dynamic’ and the nuances that exists in the world of Social dynamics. Exceptions are always applicable but the very damn thing that makes a relationship ‘dynamic’ is the dynamism of the two very opposite genders, worldview, biology, perspective and context.
She's not stupid but she's certainly not trying to see this from anyone else's perspective, either. She isn't even entertaining the idea that Ansari carries less blame than what she believed before starting this conversation and that's not a good starting point for the discussion.
Just 2 hours of papa Destiny rizzing up the Gen Z girls. Watch and learn boys, watch and learn.
Not sure how women can be friends with guys that do those sort of things.
I’m a chick that has a lot of guy friends throughout my life. I was legit a part of the guy group. If a guy really is cool with just being your friend, he will treat you like his dude friends. He’s not offering to do you favors.
because having a pseudo slave who will do anything you want and inflate your ego at all points and time whenever you want feels nice?
You're having this long conversation about what "woah, let's relax for a sec" means, but if you read the previous sentence, he was grabbing a condom. So "let's relax" may mean to Aziz, "let's de-escalate", like let's not have sex but do foreplay first. Would've been more succinct
Edit: I see it took you 20m of arguing to finally get to this point at 1:05:47
the problem with (mis)reading signals is that women give almost exactly the same signals to guys they intend to friendzone and the ones they're sexually and/or romantically interested in. once the guy makes a move, it depends on her feelings towards him whether or not he crossed a boundary or not; it depends on her feelings towards him whether or not she expects him to make a move despite her lack of clear communication.
EDIT: 46:14 case in point
obviously, men need to be a bit more careful and women need to communicate more clearly.
Unironically the best debate I've maybe ever seen Destiny have in my 7-8 years of watching in terms of actual advancement of ideas and not just entertainment. Actual substantive disagreement, honest engagement, she was pushing him very pointedly on actual discrepancies in his arguments, she didn't just have boilerplate opinions, she accepted that he might have more knowledge than her when he said she doesn't understand his point (and later understood why on her own), she even conceded some points although she had to have a very high emotional investment in them. Seriously might be the best engagement Destiny has gotten in the last several years.
Edit: Wait she was drunk during this???
She literally is just opposing his pov for content so the stream is entertaining to watch. You can't actuslly belive this is a genuine conversation right?this content is a business model, she is playing her role,and destiny is being destiny
This wasn't a debate. It was Destiny educating her and her mostly failing to grasp what he's saying.
@@doctorgonzo7777 I don't know anything about her, but no matter how performative this is its still great engagement with the arguments.
@@stillnotchill2560 No, you're just incapable of understanding.
She quite obviously was not drunk during this.
You can have a couple beers and not be close to drunk.
I was losing braincells listening to her try and bend reality, to avoid admitting a woman could have any responsebility in any situation in a male/female interaction.
Say what you want about Max, but his "say no" video is genuinely good advice for 90% of women
On the Traffic Light scale, "woah, lets relax for a sec" is an yellow light statement, not a red light statement (i.e., it's "slow down", not "stop"). It seems like Farha and "Grace" think that it's a definite red light when it is way more analogous to yellow.
@Hoenheim Elric Fair point. Edited to be more specific.
@@H4chiSama What happened was that both destiny and Farha didn’t realise for an entire 30 minutes that that was in response to him going to grab a condom, not in response to aziz kissing her. Once they finally both realised, she very quickly said that she didn’t realise it was in response to him grabbing the condom.
Every time I hear 'SA' my brain substitutes in 'South Africa', which certainly made this conversation much spicier.
Me too
Same.
As a South African I'd be so angry if I had the electricity to watch this whole thing
1:27 - 1:35 Dude called it lol. Good shit Destiny!
I think im spwaking for most guys "chill for a second = lets do a bit more foreplay"
Every time she laughs it’s obvious she knows she’s incorrect.
Destiny was so coomer brained and horny he could t think properly
Women tend to do that 😒
It's the diffusing behavior we have learned to do when challenging males so they are hopefully less likely to hurt us. Like "lets chill" is gentler than outright "no" as we need to navigate the situation to see how badly our boundaries will be disregarded. A guy who respects that is safer to be around. A guy who doesn’t indicates that placation/backing slowly out of the room may need to happen to get out of the situation.
@@pebrablue
😂 stfu hahahaha y’all are just angels something doesn’t add up wolves in sheep’s clothing
This girl is the equivalent of the "Is she into you?" Parody only she actual means it
If you're still in the room when a guy wants to have sex with, then news flash you haven't exercised any boundaries.
Guy wants to have sex - woman has to evacuate otherwise she's asking for it. Gotcha.
@@turnoffswitchon yeah gay guys know this
At some point we gotta ask ourselves “is hookup culture really worth all the problems that comes with it” 😂
How long have men been taught, "no means no."? I wouldn't be surprised that unless you explicitly say "No" then they're going to assume you're "playing the game" or that you need more foreplay or they're not ready for that particular thing.
"I don't want to make any solid statements because then I would be admitting that the is a concrete value to attack about sex. Sex needs to be infinitely valuable and infinitely worthless in order for me to have agency."
@nobias88 depends on what she feels sex is to her that day and the next week I suppose. Sex has infinite and infinitesimal value I guess.
as a technologist, I enjoyed this discussion!
It's very obvious here that this woman has very little empathy for the other side of the equation. Either she genuinely just can't understand men at all or she doesn't really care to. The way she hesitated to even admit that the woman was giving mixed signals is evidence it was the ladder. She absolutely refuses to see the guy as maybe, idk not an evil bastard? Maybe, ya know, a person or something?
This is a frustrating argument but a textbook example of the different perspectives between men and women.
I enjoyed the debate so thank you both. I think one point that fell a bit under the table is how mentally there both parties were in that story. Both had been drinking and I'd assume Aziz by the end was in full on horny mode. I'd say the way to set the boundary escalates in the same way the situation escalates. In a perfect world both parties are open with what they want and clear-headed enough to think straight. In reality some mumbled or nonverbal cues might not always be enough to slow things down. By the end the clear "No, I don't want to do this" should also be followed by her starting to grab her stuff and leaving. And to Aziz' credit he apparently stopped at that point though he kept pushing which is pretty bad.
The point is, a simple verbal "No" is lot clearer the earlier it is said and that needs to be understood by both sides.
Don’t go back to his place alone, at night, after drinking…..
NO EXCUSES 😂❤
Thank you. The lack of empathy for women in this comment section is actually startling
@@Macheako What if she really likes him and wanted to watch a movie and cuddle? But wasn't ready for sex? Can't she want that without getting raped?
She's mixing up the story the girl is completely naked when she says they need to relax for a sec. As a young girl, when I was discovering my sexual identity (Asexual). I was in a similar situation because I was trying to feel sexual attraction. I didn't, and I stopped the situation. With men, you do have to be very clear. That is why this is such an important topic. I know I was giving the poor guy mixed signals. That is why I had to be very clear. I do believe it is possible to maliciously coerced sex but it is more along the lines with how police interrogations get innocent people to confess. Men are more forceful, and women are in much harder situations to get out of. The women feel like sex is the only way to get out of the situation.
Edit, only halfway through vid