Reconstructing Languages
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- A few thoughts on reconstructing lost languages and lost language relationships, from a historical linguist who works with the Germanic languages.
Dr. Jackson Crawford is Instructor of Nordic Studies and Nordic Program Coordinator at the University of Colorado Boulder (formerly UC Berkeley and UCLA). He is a historical linguist and an experienced teacher and translator of Old Norse, Modern Icelandic, and Norwegian.
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Some readings you might enjoy if this sort of thing interests you:
-Fortson, "Indo-European Language and Culture." This book reviews the methods of historical linguistics and the most current reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European, plus it includes a chapter for the major developments in each of the branches of Indo-European. Superior organization (it's also set up like a textbook so you can use the review questions to test yourself) and engaging writing make this a great read and easy to learn from.
-Robinson, "Old English and Its Closest Reltives." This book can get you started on the basic grammar and reading skills of all the old Germanic languages, using Old English and these languages' resemblances to each other as a scaffold to build on.
-Campbell, "Old English Grammar." Different from other grammars of this language since it focuses on the grammar of the oldest Old English documents, with a detailed look at the developments that distinguish Old English from the other Germanic languages.
-Gordon, "Introduction to Old Norse." Sometimes criticized by linguists for not providing enough linguistic background, I think it provides just enough for someone whose career is not Old Norse. If you read Norwegian, Iversen's "Norrøn grammatikk" is even better (but get the 6th not the 7th edition if you can find it).
-Ostler, "Empires of the Word." Not exactly historical linguistics but more like linguistic history, this is a fun survey of the careers of different languages around the globe that inspires a lot of thought about who speaks what and why, and how that changes faster or slower in different cultures.
You should grow out a beard. You'd look nice with one.
What do you or other linguists believe caused the Grimm's law shifts? And I think Hungarian actually did something similar. A lot of Finnish words that begin with a 'k' begin with 'h' in Hungarian.
Another example of the hamburger problem is the name of the dog breed Labrador retriever. They’re often called “labs” with their color preceding it. Yellow lab, black lab, chocolate lab and so on. The word “lab” usually has referred to a laboratory, not a breed of dog from the Canadian province of Labrador. Someone trying to reconstruct the meaning of the word “lab” would be very confused by the uses of it and have no idea that it would have two completely unrelated meanings and origins.
Thank you, that was very helpful - I like how you take your time to explain things thoroughly, but managing to keep it understandable. Also, I think I‘m going to steal you „hamburger problem“ concept 😅 (incidentally, greetings from the city of Hamburg!)
My question: what is your scholarly opinion on Frederick Bodmer‘s „Loom of Language“ and his approach of learning multiple modern languages similarly by using knowledge from historical linguistics? As a layperson, I found his book quite interesting and helpful, but given some criticism I read online, I was wondering how flawed that approach is, and what better ways there might be to use language structures for learning languages that are related to one another.
I would be very interested in hearing your position about that, and again, thank you for your videos.
My favourite example of the ‘burger’-type word is ‘bus’, ‘autobus’, ‘minibus’, etc. which comes from Latin ‘omnibus’ ‘for all’, dative plural of ‘omnis’, where -ibus is the dat.pl. ending, and ‘bus’ is just the final syllable of the original Latin dative plural suffix…
My favorite example is the Roman king Lucius Tarquinius Superbus. He drove a flying bus with a big S emblazoned on it!
Also the word "helicopter", from Greek helix - spiral and pter - wing. So the division in the compound is helico-pter, but most people assume copter is the second element, so we have quadcopters, but they should really be quadopters, but preferably tetrapters to keep the Greek element going and not use a mix of Latin and Greek in compound words.
For anyone wondering, apparently that "ham" element probably comes from either a word for 'bend' (as in a river bend) or a word for 'pasture land'. Indeed, neither have much to do with meat.
*Hamburger Problem* 😂 such a good and relatable name, now a linguistic term by Dr Crawford. Love how interesting it sounds and hope that may attract more people to study historical linguistics
I am very thankful to see a linguist sceptic of these extremely far back reconstructions. I have always found them to be highly speculative and prone to a myriad of mistakes.
Almost all reputable linguists are. These theories are usually built on very shaky ground.
IIRC, Mark Rosenfelder, a.k.a. Zompist, wrote about the coincidences between languages, comparing, I think, Quechua and Mandarin, which are unrelated, at least as far as anyone can tell. He makes the same point, i.e. that just because you can find multiple (sometimes dozens or even hundreds) words that look the same and mean something similar, that doesn't mean a language is related to another language.
He also went on to note that in languages that we are fairly confident are related, some words don't look all that similar (wheel vs. cakra vs. kolo, for example), and then in other instances, words that might appear similar can have different meanings (Persian "dâr" vs. Greek "doru", wood vs. spear). And then, of course, you get both at once (door vs. forum), where the cognates don't immediately look similar, nor do they have similar meanings.
Well I learned how to say my last name in different languages.
is your name dagur?
Terve Christopher Päivä! 🇫🇮
@@sunshinesilverarrow5292 iltaa xD
@@spymen08 Good evening to you too!
@@sunshinesilverarrow5292 kiitti oot söpö
Just wanted to say I love your style and the massive amount of knowledge you've put on RUclips. You exemplify the best part of academia and a healthy mix of charisma, knowledge, and wisdom. Keep it up. PS Your beard looks fly right now
Funny coincidence. Hamburger is a replacement for an older word, sandwich. Both of these were originally place names. Sandwich being supposedly named after the Earl of.
I enjoy the voicing distinction in your labio-velar approximant
Hamburgers get their name from Perry Mason's nemesis Hamilton Burger, who was in reality an Etruscan god of mischief. You cannot prove otherwise.
An interesting example of languages having similar sounding words by coincidense is with Finnish "veneen sija" and Italian "Venezia" as the Finnish word means "place of a ship" or "place of the ship". My Finnish teacher said that people used to consider Finnish and Italian related languages because of this. I would guess that this would have been something said during the era of national romanticism in finland to connect the Finnish to the Italians and therefore the romans
I read that somehow Lithuanians used to claim that they are descendents of some Roman lost legions or so because both Roman and Lithuanian contain some very old indo european structures
@@maxx1014 that is kind of true. In J. Radvanas' 16th century poem "Radviliada" he does mention that we (Lithuanians) are of Roman blood and goes into detail of how that came to be. Not sure if he mentioned any details about language, but sadly at the time, Lithuanian was a 'peasant' language. It only had it's first written texts written half a century beforehand. But that theory is of course complete nonsense, though at the time it was used I think as a way to get the attention of the rest of Europe right after the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
Very cool to learn about the methodology of reconstructing ancestral languages.
In one of my books, the protagonist is a linguist who goes into space and upon speaking with another race discovers some of their words (she refuses a translator insert because she wants to learn the language naturally). The Your hamburger problem comes up later (although I had no idea that's what you called it) but she cannot square the circle of words handed down in language naturally and meaning the same thing in a language in a race that was said to have only discovered earth 100 years previous. It set up a very great plot line. I'm enjoying it. All from the word, broonie.
I love these more general linguistics videos. Great video as always!
Hello Dr. Crawford. I just recently found your channel and it's already become one of my top favourites! I am massively interested in and passionate about linguistics, specifically the Germanic languages, with English and Old Norse in particular being my favourites. I have learned so much from you that I'm not sure I would have found anywhere else. Thank you for the time and effort that you put into these videos. They are an invaluable source of information about languages.
One of these days, I'll see snow-capped mountains like those in person.
At first I thought the good doctor was going to point out the absurdity of reconstructing a cow from a hamburger.
Jag vill tacka dig för ditt fantastiska arbete. Varje gång jag tittar och lyssnar till ett program får jag nya insikter om vårt/våra nordiska språk och kultur. Keep up the good work. :-)
Something about this video makes it one of your best videos.
I still don't know what to do with my master's degree in German Studies (and a B.A. in Linguistics) in Germany when I finally have it, but I really love telling people on partys about the methods of comparing Germanic languages on a phonological level
This was fascinating. I don't often comment on your videos since I put them on while I'm commuting to work and driving, but I am steadily working through them and loving them. I've always been interested in languages and this is giving me good insight into linguistics in general.
Another example of the hamburger problem is the name of the dog breed Labrador retriever. They’re often called “labs” with their color preceding it. Yellow lab, black lab, chocolate lab and so on. The word “lab” usually has referred to a laboratory, not a breed of dog from the Canadian province of Labrador. Someone trying to reconstruct the meaning of the word “lab” would be very confused by the uses of it and have no idea that it would have two completely unrelated meanings and origins.
Thank you, I actually had an argument about this a week ago, this should settle the arguments
I thought it was called Folk Etymology, but to be fair Hamburger Problem sounds like a better and much more relatable name to me.
Thank you, as always, a good one. Hugs & sunshine from a land up north of always winter, with the similar weather conditions as yours. 🦅N
It might have a relation to ham, the food. Old High German hamma for bend/angle referred to the back of the knee and ham meat also came from a bend in the leg. Hamburg was built where a river had a bend.
In that case it's still a coincidence though. Hamburgers aren't named that because of the possible distant relation.
@@elfarlaur true , we don't eat bend-burgers.
@@thorr18BEM Hamburg got it's name from the Hammaburg, mentioned in the 9. century for the first time in a document . The bishop and missionary Ansgar lived on this fortification. The name of the castle probably goes back to the Old Saxon word "hamme", which means something "crooked" or bend
Interesting program!
Dr. Crawford, I’m curious, do you ever travel to Iceland or the other Nordic countries to practice your language skills with locals and/or conduct field research? I’m sure you have in the past, but I’m curious if you have recently, or plan to. It would be really cool to see you film some of these videos with the dramatic landscapes of Iceland in the background. :)
Is it possible to get a PHD in linguistics if you can’t roll your r’s?
If languages tend to lose rather than gain parts of words over time how did the parts lost get to be there in the first place? Did the great-great-great-great grandfather of Gothic spell day something like 'dagsnufrdastlamatrrobitistr'?
About Hamburg: could the "ham" part be a harbour? In the nordic languages, harbour is usually hamn (swedish), havn (Danish) or höfn (Islandic, not 100% sure about that). The city of Hamburg is pretty far north towards Denmark, and its not impossible that the city name just means "city with the harbour".
Oh... for some reason modern Norweigan use "port" for harbour. Wish in Sweden is a big door.
Languages tend not to gain material? Maybe not out of nowhere. However, they can gain material easily by analogy with pre-existing material within themselves (which is what causes the hamburger problem) or affectation of this material (how Germanic languages developed front rounded vowels).
On the coincidence front: there's a handful of those between classical Latin and modern Japanese that I was SUPER PSYCHED about back in highschool XD
20:16 An interesting example for a runic inscription containing an old form of "aesir" as "a(n)suz" from around 590-640 was found near my hometown in southern Germany and can be found searching for "Scheibenfibel von Balingen"
What do you or other linguists believe caused the Grimm's law shifts? And I think Hungarian actually did something similar. A lot of Finnish words that begin with a 'k' begin with 'h' in Hungarian.
Since it has been established that the the Indoeuropeans came about in the Pontic steppe about 3500 bce and the linguistically reconstructed language is in principle based on the oldest Vedic (1500 bce) and Greek (1000 bce) sources reconfirmed by an awful lot of other languages, I find it quite sobering that even with an extreme large number of a attestations the maximal time depth we can "look" into the past by comparative methods is 2000 to 2500 years.
I am able to read Chaucer and understand pretty well (I am fairly familiar with romance languages) but I really want to read Beowulf in the original. Studying which modern language would help me the most would that? Dutch? I haven't studied any Germanic languages.
I suppose there is also the general problem, that for every reconstruction done, there will be some uncertainty. and so the reconstruction of the reconstruction would be more uncertain than the first reconstruction. That doesn't mean we can't be pretty certain about some things, but we must get back to a point somewhere, when we can't be to sure anymore.
I love the fact that Mr Crawford distinguishes the voiced bilabial approximant /w/ from the unvoiced /ʍ/. Would this be a distinction he grew up with (native dialect/accent) or one acquired as a reading pronunciation of ?
Apparently he acquired it naturally after being raised by his grandparents
Internet culture accelerates the hamburger problem. No one would be able to figure out that the word 'spam' derives from two Proto-Indo-European words meaning 'to observe' and 'shin bone'.
Good Dagr strange fellow said the Viking to the Anglo Saxon . So where did the English word dagger come from?
But how do you feel about "Whomst'd've'ly"?.
Whom'st'd've*
(note: 'ly isn't a real contraction)
"Whom hast had have"
e. g. I wish to thee, whom hast had have, good luck /// I wish to thee, whom'st'd've, good luck.
@@michaelalexander643 Anything can be made a contraction if you're brave'nough.
"Who must had have", actually.
And now, 'Hamburger' is going to mean 'a word with a goofy etymology,' and anyone without access to RUclips will have no idea why
Ais/eis is the singular in Etruscan too.
I tell ya hwat
khwat
‘Crawford’s dictionary defines “hamburger” as “distort beyond recognition”...’
Burger in German means citizen. Das ist ein tolles Video.
Sound changes and patterns were helpful in the confirmation of Celtic,Armenian,Tocharian,and the Anatoilian as being Indo European, am I right?
I want a burger...
Really only a joke, but would be funny, if the name of Hamburg actually comes from some name of a meal (from another language) nobody remembers/know about today ... then it would be a double Hamburger problem :)
Will someone please clarify the word that sounds like "lauringels" based on the work of deSuassure?
probably laryngeal
Hamburgering each other sounds pretty naughty.
I wonder how many of his students attend his class just to look at him
I know I would.
Feels like nobody ever mentions hittite, even though it’s the oldest attested indoeuropean language.
@ 16:30
2:29 whom vs. whomst
How did the Norsemen say "Esketit"?
I need to know how you do your hair
It's *immaculate*
the german word burg does not mean city, it means "castle" or even "fortress"
Interestingly enough in the dialect spoken around Birmingham, England, once part of the kingdom of Mercia, the endings of words such as something, nothing, thing and ceiling are changed to ink.So thing becomes think, something is somethink and so on. In my younger days there was a current joke, before the Channel Tunnel there was a British Rail ferry service to France called Sea Link and the joke went what's the opposite to the floor? The answer is Sea Link. Maybe since my youth the dialect has softened by the influx of immigrants and the ubiquity of the television but I no longer liver there.
HEY! What about bacon? There is nothing weird about having bacon in a burger, and it's ham. :-)
Ham is the hindquarters of a pig, and bacon is its belly.
There're also pork patties what you can throw between a pair of hamburger buns with some lettuce and what-have-you. A bit unconventional, but delicious!
Nice hair.
🍔-Problem! 😮
I have only one word to say :
Armenian…