Or Ian could learn to use some of the voice generation AIs to replicate Keller's voice and use it to "denoise" the audio. Denoise under quotation marks because he would be replacing the signal, and not treating it
@@prgnify I've already been using those tools. I even used them in part of this video for my own voice, and no-one has picked up on it. I've even fooled my own family
I usually don’t make comments under RUclips clips, but please do feed us more contents like this one… very interesting episode, and would love to learn more!
I absolutely want more!! This is content you can't find ANYWHERE ELSE! Let alone with such fantastic talking points. I get more excited through these videos than a marketing team could ever make me. The practical business applications for this are absolutely bonkers!
+1 for the micro architecture deep dive from me also. Most interesting point: AI is going to write software that’s different from what humans write. That’s a pretty profound insight and was something I hadn’t thought of before. (Also “C has no loss function” 😁)
Since your here, I assume your aware > " Software that is different from what humans write " is the basis behind Elon Musk's open letter to pause development of ChatGPT-4. That AGI, Artificial General Intelligence "proposed" ability to write code that was beyond our grasp. While probable, its a deceptive half-truth based upon the work of technologist and futurist Ray Kurzweil's concept of autonomous computing called the Singularity. Once the Turing Test threshold is passed intelligent systems will create new versions of "themselves" In reality, we could benefit from annotated assembly, or a new machine language that could break speed records, efficient and compact - but it better have solid, concise commenting :)
There is a good chance they can’t do a deep dive. I don’t think sifive cores are open source hence the license may prevent them from talking about it too much and as for the changes they have made or their own designs that are attached then they might not want to talk too much about it in case someone copies it.
Great job on this video! It's quite the skill you have to pull key insights from people during interviews. I learned more about where AI hardware is going from those two interviews than I did from reading hundreds or articles, videos, and talks/presentations.
Lots of people think like him. Most come up with a "good idea" in theory and find it's not practical in reality. Sometimes people come up with great solutions to questions nobody is asking. There are thousands of "the next big thing" startups that have come and gone, whilst very few succeed and come to full fruition. Even the big names in the industry get it wrong, Intel's Itanium and P4 Netburst architecture for example. Only time will tell if this is the way forward.
Love what their doing, will be interesting to see where they go, but we really need to get more low cost RISC5 SBC's into the DIY and Startup DEV world as this can be a driving force for performance increase and to push the platform into the mainstream, leveraging the opensource community to adapt current software to natively support RISC5 can only help.
What are they doing? You know k8s for AI training/operation/experiment good enough to call out a set of O'Reilly books, say? Is there an OS already? I mean, if that laptop thought about being closer to $35 than it is to $44,000 (dual Epyc 6 screen laptop) I would like that (but one split is at $22k and that's...will I not want housing anymore in 2025?)
I can live without low cost as long as they are performant and smol at the same time. The best we can get on the ARM side of SBCs is A76 which was announced in 2018, making it a full 5 generations of core design out of date. Even just a jump to Cortex X1/Neoverse V1 level performance would be a big leap, and while SiFive's latest P870 core would match this there are no such SoC designs using it on the horizon.
Jim is one of the smartest, sad guy I have ever listened to. Thank you so much for this video. I loved Jim’s rebuttal to the AI, black box problem (AI decisions are not auditable).
8-wide RISC-V seems like it means serious business. I remember when Apple started building their own custom cores that they were surprisingly wide -- wider than even the latest desktop chips at the time. That seems to have done well for them. Is there a table somewhere where we can reference/compare the instruction-width of various modern CPU architectures? I feel like an outdated table exists on Anandtech somewhere but I can't seem to find it. I'd love to see how old and new architectures compare in width.
Afaik Alderlake was the first x86 Architecture with a 6-wide decoder and AMD is 4-wide up to and including Zen 4. That doesn‘t mean they are limited to that number of instructions per cycle though, as the instruction microcache may be wider.
@@noergelstein No, all instructions must be decoded first regardless of if they are accessed from the icache or elsewhere. IPC can not exceed decode width
It'll be interesting to see the power envelope that these different core designs run in. Also curious in the performance of the cores - though I doubt we will be running vanilla Linux on it :D
Well, you can run Linux on RISC V today, so it would probably run on this too, even if it probably wouldn't be able to utilize any of the closed source IP in it...
@@Luredreier you sure can. it doesn't look like it has storage on it (past firmware) so you probably won't be running Ubuntu or fedora is more what I meant
I really love all your videos. I'm no where CLOSE to being as smart as you, but the way you talk and present things sure makes me feel smart 😂. Is YT your full time job or do you do things with chip makers?
Jim Keller and team solve problems and challenges that move the semiconductor, firmware, compiler, software, server systems future forward at an accelerated rate! Fantastic interviews, insights and roadmap. Thank you TechTechPotato for your diligent efforts. Would be interested in Tenstorrent plans on leveraging Co-Packaged Optics. (i.e. Ranovus, Poet Technologies). Something tells me Portable, Mobile, Distributed Cloud Infrastructure is about to become a reality! Distributed microClouds/nanoClouds will be a hoot!! Such a boon for future Automotive EV Ecosystems that have to derive revenue and profit from innovative cloud products and services. Good times are coming! Insanity ensues! Ha!!
The past 10 years have been really fascinating watching how designs change based on compute needs and what tradeoffs to make in the full system and all the optimizations at the instruction level on up.
If a larger company wanted to include some of Tenstorrent’s IP/chips on package would Tenstorrent permit them access? Assuming they become popular and used for a lot of tasks it may be nice to move their package from an add in board to an on package solution.
I suspect that if this were to happen, Tenstorrent would licence it just like Intel and AMD cross licence x86 technology. The uptake and success then depends on price and licensing restrictions. Which is where you start to lose any benefit of the open ISA... you become wholly dependent on one company.
Excellent video. Thank for the content and I wish Jim and his company success in ramping risc-v designs and bringing them to market. When you mention they have laptop designs, are they windows laptop designs or some other OS? Finally, Santa Clara, isn’t that where intel is? So Jim is just down the street eh?
@@TechTechPotato I figured that it would be Linux-based as my understanding was that windows didn’t have a risc-v port. I wish them success. Good to see Jim do good things.
After the tech restrictions with China I expect RISC-V will grow in leaps and bounds especially in China. They have GNU toolchain and can run Linux. From a security point of view RISC-V on Linux from multinationals will be better than using US controlled tech. I personally like the idea of a third instruction set in mainstream not controlled by US. This will improve competition and innovation. The x86 instruction set and extensions have barely changed in 10 years and even ARM is mostly just modifications to old instruction sets apart from the 64 bit extensions. RISC-V ISC already supports 64 bit. But this AI acceleration looks vary exciting I will keep an eye on this company may become a NVidia competitor in the future.
It would be neat if they could build a consumer graphics processor with RISC-V. I'm sure it's possible, i just don't know what it would take to make it economical.
unauditable software sucks no matter who or what makes it. Jim begs the question of machine-generated software by assuming software is not auditable, then using that as a justification for unauditable machine-generated software. We're already drowning in sh*t implementations; machine learning can only compound that.
Mainframe class IO at last? For so many cores, there's obvious hurdles with cache coherency unless you go NUMA. And then there's the compiler backends..
I see news about CPUs like the Veyron V1 and V2 RIS-V CPU and they look very interesting, but I cant see any motherboards or systems using them that you can buy. Does anyone know if there such a motherboard/system and where to get them?
Actually my question should really be, other than the Milk-V Pioneer, are there any other commercially available CPU/motherboard/complete systems with 64+ cores. I would be very interested in these. Thank you if you are able to help.
Not many at all. You see ARM put their licence fees up and coupled to the issue with the US banning Western chip technology to China, the country wants to switch to open source RISC-V ASAP. The idea is they can build all the tool chains and compilers from scratch and not be chained to US companies that could be banned from doing business. You see it is like they have their own RUclips and Google, they want their own home-grown software as well. Chiplets were also something they developed to get around the EUV ban. Huawei built the Harmony OS in record time.
probably something like 5 years, the time for the foundation to finalize the ISA extensions and for designers to refine the different microarchitectures. The issue remains the price though.
@@reddeimon475 ARM history is quite different. A lot had to be paved before the 2010 decade, both from the company itself and other links of the chain. Moreover Risc-V benefits from the community shared effort and experience and a clean design as well as huge interests from non-US companies and countries.
@@PainterVierax The community shared effort is not something that's going to help. Companies like this will come up with proprietary, closed CPU designs based on the RISC V ISA, and have complete control over them, then they can charge what they want. This open ISA is nothing like the open software model. The "community" is very different.
I love the concept of Risc-V, but I have yet to see any way to actually take the files and turn them into a working computer that doesn't involve going right back to a centralized market, since the circuitry to go between the peripherals and the CPU is only manufactured by a handful of Chinese companies, and there is *zero* documentation available on DIY-level motherboard design.
What could be a potential use in the consumer space? Could it be an AI add-in card for PCs, analogous to perhaps how many years ago Ageia Physx was intended for physics simulation?
At this moment in time, a Risc V desktop machine would be very slow in comparison to both x86 and ARM. The ISA may be open, but the architectural designs and implementations of actual CPUs haven't yet reached maturity. If a company comes up with a competitive design, they still have to make it competitive in terms of price, availability and third party support.
@@another3997 Its inevitable our understanding of computers will radically change. Today's Internet of things comprised insecure, inflexible embedded systems must evolve. The future resides in leveraging the power of the network to offload and distribute compute over a wide area. New systems comprised of low power NvLink or Mellanox style interconnects could alter how humans interpret or view what a "computer" is. It's possible, our isolated single purpose built machines will be enhanced then superseded by networks comprised of embedded nodes, where openness and security are paramount. As for today, there are legitimate security concerns within proprietary hardware design. For example, it would great to upgrade or deny "features " within the Intel ME. When it comes to a "drop in" solution for the desktop, low power options focusing on security and scalability would be interesting. New add in cards which promote "low cost" data science would be great! The RTX 8000, A100 are unaffordable, power hungry and overkill for smaller tasks.
How does open-source work for hardware ? Do you have to put the designs made from open source IP into the public domain, just as a GPLv3 software license would enforce ?
I'm not sure what specific license they use, but it's not GPL. It allows proprietary designs. RISC-V is an ISA, i.e. a list of possible instructions and their binary format, including several optional extensions for things like floating point math, vectorization, etc. Designing the circuitry to interpret those instructions and do the actual work, that's up to the manufacturer, and designs will vary widely in how they do that. That part does not need to be open source. Companies don't have to publish their verilog files or litho masks. All it means is that manufacturers don't have to pay royalties to use that instruction set.
@@DFPercush Risc V is pushed by Berkeley, so the ISA is BSD licensed, which is known as a permissive license that allows forks to get proprietary licensed (unlike a copyleft license like the GPL). There are many Risc-V cores designed, some are opensourced but the majority are closed sourced.
Dare I hope for a RISC-V chip that is a direct competitor with the Raspberry Pi RP2040? Including something like the RP's PIO state machines and (as long as I am dreaming) the ability to run micro python programs?
Would love to see how "easy" (or hard) it is to port a neural net made for x86 cpu to a tenstorrent compute card. In my case it's written in c++ without any ml specific libraries. Interested to see what kind of structures, algorithms or kind of compute it support for acceleration.
For Tenstorremt I think you need to write your AI in Pytorch. Everyone is already using Pytorch for AI anyway so it is much more efficient for them to focus their efforts on creating tools for Pytorch only.
I just had a thought IAN, risc-v is an open source instruction set for CPU, could someone release an open source GPU architecture so both cpu and gpu are open source? Takecare.
Whether the ISA is open or closed, makes very little difference to the end customers. Because the companies designing and building chips using that ISA are still able to make their chip designs proprietary and closed source. Just like a program written using an open source language doesn't have to be free or open.
Will Skynet be run by RISC V? This is vital information for the future of humanity! If I get some ambition and can find information I find palatable I will try to go down the Architecture rabbit hole.
16:53 In the open-source world there are several examples of large code bases being successfully maintained over periods of decades. The largest one is probably the Linux kernel, currently at about 20 million lines. They have a policy that nothing stays in the code base without a maintainer to respond to bug reports. If nobody is able to handle problems with a piece of code, then it gets dropped--as Microsoft discovered the hard way, when it was contributing patches for Hyper-V.
The open source software world is very different to the Risc V open ISA world. It's only the Instruction Set that is open. Chip designers are free to implement whatever features and chip designs they want using that Instruction Set. Think of Risc V as like a programming language, the built in commands are fixed by the creators of the language, but the 3rd party software can be written any way the programmer wants. And the language creators have no control over that.
@@leeroyjenkins0 that sounds like the natural outcome. But the thing is since GPT, being more productive at existing tasks is how I’m *currently* using it. That’s the starting point, so it might only evolve from there and displace what I’ve worked for. I busted my arse for years labouring and for a while in service too so after pivoting career and really finding happiness in my work it’s a bit of a kick in the guts to not know what’s coming.
I'm wondering how accessible making a custom RISC-V chip is because while the ISA is open and low cost, producing anything on a recent process is very high cost. It seems that this won't really be accessible to academia, but will be to significant sized companies with lots of resources.
@@davidgunther8428 Sure, if you get a good enough FPGA, but it would probably have garbage performance. FPGAs don't tend to have very high clock speeds, usually maxing out around a few hundred MHz. And you wouldn't have much room for cache or extra cores.
It's a case of companies designing workable CPUs that can be produced cheaply whilst still having some kind of performance or energy consumption benefits over the competition. Remember, the ISA is open, but the CPU designs themselves are most likely to be proprietary, and a lot depends on how much companies charge to use their design.
One of most interesting part was why chiplets, and that you don't have choice. Question is, what Nvidia think about it? Because they more and more looks as giant with clay legs.
I’m more on the side of Casey Moratory, AI is just a good way to find new ways todo normal Algorithms but we first have to bridge the gap between abstract model and reality. It’s also great for very dumb stuff that one wouldn’t want todo themselves anyway. If we don’t find out how to get away with the black box we will be unable to advance as simple as it is.
Sad to see Keller resorting to voodoo at the end of that interview. Modularity is an engineering principle that allows us to reason about a five million line program. Safety critical systems don't run on Windows.
And the guy cautiously omitted that opensource licensing already allows thousands of people to audit that code in search for bugs, vulnerabilities or ways to optimize.
I have seen plenty of medical equipment still being run on windows at least at the interface level (and that too in xp sometimes - the horrors) The average joe couldn't care less of safety critical systems sadly
Lots of embedded systems run windows or obsolete OS's. It's a major security problem, because your milling machine has a windows NT controller and they don't support it any more, or your switch runs CentOS 7.9 and you can upgrade the OS to Rocky 9 but good luck getting the drivers and switch CLI to run on that because the mfgr doesn't give out source and the drivers are behind a high paywall on the silicon vendor's web site.
@@tristan7216 MS' own EULA says windows is not to be used in safety critical systems. Workers are not supposed to be anywhere within the swing of a mill while it is under numeric control, and CNC machines are user-programmed, it's not windows' place to refuse a command that crashes the milling head into a part
Surely if you buy a machine with a six- or seven-figure price tag, you would also extract some binding commitments about the support of that machine that would last the expected lifetime of its usefulness. Continuing to use something that is unsupported simply because you cannot afford to replace it means you are just one failure (hardware or software) away from bankruptcy.
As William said, it's not an architecture. But it's more than just an ISA as its modular design is able to scale in a wide range of specialized products and the permissive license allows manufacturers to expand even further. There are few opensource cores to base a design from but most of the big actors (like Sifive) are developing their own proprietary designs.
@@lawrencedoliveiro9104 The problem with your logic is fairly obvious. X86 has a totally different market to either ARM or RISC V. It's like saying JCB has a tiny share of the entire automobile market. Several of the fastest supercomputers ever made are based on the IBM POWER architecture... and most people have never even heard of that. Most of the other top 500 Supercomputers use x86.
@@another3997 Following your same logic, you are trying to imply that RISC-V will not be successful until it takes over the construction-equipment market.
How is Risc-V any different to all the other risc chips that didn't take over? I assume it's just the same old risc on latest fabrication technologies. Won't it be the same underlying business challenge that has failed before?
![[25] Wei-han Lien, Lead CPU Architect, Tenstorrent](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DnM3J2lAYd0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[25] Wei-han Lien, Lead CPU Architect, Tenstorrent](/img/tr.png)
The first optimization Tenstorrent should do is to put sound panels in their meeting room to minimize echo.
Or Keller has to learn to put the mike on instead of leaving it on the table.
@@peterfireflylund Yes this lol
Or Ian could learn to use some of the voice generation AIs to replicate Keller's voice and use it to "denoise" the audio.
Denoise under quotation marks because he would be replacing the signal, and not treating it
@@prgnify I've already been using those tools. I even used them in part of this video for my own voice, and no-one has picked up on it. I've even fooled my own family
@@TechTechPotato They truly are amazing!
I would love to see a deep dive into the architecture of the chip, and why the particular decisions were made.
YES
Its a wide chip, like apple silicon
8 wide decoder
Yeah, I'm wondering about that as well.
@@backacheache are you referring to RISC-V as an ISA? afaik the implementation of these cores are not open source themselves
I usually don’t make comments under RUclips clips, but please do feed us more contents like this one… very interesting episode, and would love to learn more!
Jim Keller is always insightful.
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RISC-V is gaining so much momentum it's crazy! So excited!
I absolutely want more!! This is content you can't find ANYWHERE ELSE! Let alone with such fantastic talking points. I get more excited through these videos than a marketing team could ever make me. The practical business applications for this are absolutely bonkers!
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+1 for the micro architecture deep dive from me also.
Most interesting point: AI is going to write software that’s different from what humans write. That’s a pretty profound insight and was something I hadn’t thought of before.
(Also “C has no loss function” 😁)
Since your here, I assume your aware > " Software that is different from what humans write " is the basis behind Elon Musk's open letter to pause development of ChatGPT-4. That AGI, Artificial General Intelligence "proposed" ability to write code that was beyond our grasp. While probable, its a deceptive half-truth based upon the work of technologist and futurist Ray Kurzweil's concept of autonomous computing called the Singularity. Once the Turing Test threshold is passed intelligent systems will create new versions of "themselves" In reality, we could benefit from annotated assembly, or a new machine language that could break speed records, efficient and compact - but it better have solid, concise commenting :)
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There is a good chance they can’t do a deep dive. I don’t think sifive cores are open source hence the license may prevent them from talking about it too much and as for the changes they have made or their own designs that are attached then they might not want to talk too much about it in case someone copies it.
Very cool to see more information about Risc-V, I am definitely interested in seeing more about it :)
Awesome video! I'd love to see more on RISC-V
This is very exciting, another golden interview, deeper dive please! :)
Brilliant content. Must feel good to be given some camera time with the CEO. Congrats!
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I laughed at the "auditable code" bit. "Most of whom no longer work for your company!" Jim is so right.
Great job on this video! It's quite the skill you have to pull key insights from people during interviews. I learned more about where AI hardware is going from those two interviews than I did from reading hundreds or articles, videos, and talks/presentations.
Deep dive into architecture of the chip sounds wonderful!
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Best episode so far, the singularity is neigh. Moore please. Giddy up!
Feel free to interview Jim more. If only more people think like him.
Lots of people think like him. Most come up with a "good idea" in theory and find it's not practical in reality. Sometimes people come up with great solutions to questions nobody is asking. There are thousands of "the next big thing" startups that have come and gone, whilst very few succeed and come to full fruition. Even the big names in the industry get it wrong, Intel's Itanium and P4 Netburst architecture for example. Only time will tell if this is the way forward.
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Love what their doing, will be interesting to see where they go, but we really need to get more low cost RISC5 SBC's into the DIY and Startup DEV world as this can be a driving force for performance increase and to push the platform into the mainstream, leveraging the opensource community to adapt current software to natively support RISC5 can only help.
What are they doing? You know k8s for AI training/operation/experiment good enough to call out a set of O'Reilly books, say? Is there an OS already? I mean, if that laptop thought about being closer to $35 than it is to $44,000 (dual Epyc 6 screen laptop) I would like that (but one split is at $22k and that's...will I not want housing anymore in 2025?)
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I can live without low cost as long as they are performant and smol at the same time.
The best we can get on the ARM side of SBCs is A76 which was announced in 2018, making it a full 5 generations of core design out of date.
Even just a jump to Cortex X1/Neoverse V1 level performance would be a big leap, and while SiFive's latest P870 core would match this there are no such SoC designs using it on the horizon.
I love the audio quality in the interview
When I close my eyes, I really believe this interview took place in a cave!
Jim is one of the smartest, sad guy I have ever listened to. Thank you so much for this video.
I loved Jim’s rebuttal to the AI, black box problem (AI decisions are not auditable).
So the key to these different RISC-V designs would be a good test suite and a certification process.
10:42 yes please! i would love to see the core explained in detail!
8-wide RISC-V seems like it means serious business. I remember when Apple started building their own custom cores that they were surprisingly wide -- wider than even the latest desktop chips at the time. That seems to have done well for them.
Is there a table somewhere where we can reference/compare the instruction-width of various modern CPU architectures? I feel like an outdated table exists on Anandtech somewhere but I can't seem to find it.
I'd love to see how old and new architectures compare in width.
Afaik Alderlake was the first x86 Architecture with a 6-wide decoder and AMD is 4-wide up to and including Zen 4.
That doesn‘t mean they are limited to that number of instructions per cycle though, as the instruction microcache may be wider.
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@@noergelstein No, all instructions must be decoded first regardless of if they are accessed from the icache or elsewhere. IPC can not exceed decode width
definitely would love to see a deeper dive on the uArch, pls
With all the echo in that office and Jim Keller's tone of voice make the interview segments next to incomprehensible.
yes; info on the microarchitecture - and especially the thinking that made the decisions in the micro arch - would be welcome.
Appreciate for introducing this company, i really want to know more about other companies working on the AI Accelerators, thanks for the video.
Tents to Rent was what I was reading
It'll be interesting to see the power envelope that these different core designs run in. Also curious in the performance of the cores - though I doubt we will be running vanilla Linux on it :D
Well, you can run Linux on RISC V today, so it would probably run on this too, even if it probably wouldn't be able to utilize any of the closed source IP in it...
@@Luredreier you sure can. it doesn't look like it has storage on it (past firmware) so you probably won't be running Ubuntu or fedora is more what I meant
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Absolutely knocking it out of the park. Thank you for your work!
I really love all your videos. I'm no where CLOSE to being as smart as you, but the way you talk and present things sure makes me feel smart 😂. Is YT your full time job or do you do things with chip makers?
There's a video for that! ruclips.net/video/dtG9I3mZlJo/видео.html
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@@TechTechPotato haha thanks! 👍
Very good video! I want to know more about RISK-5 and Tenstorrent work.
RISC V, not RISK 5. 😉
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Yes please to the deep dive!
Jim Keller and team solve problems and challenges that move the semiconductor, firmware, compiler, software, server systems future forward at an accelerated rate! Fantastic interviews, insights and roadmap. Thank you TechTechPotato for your diligent efforts.
Would be interested in Tenstorrent plans on leveraging Co-Packaged Optics. (i.e. Ranovus, Poet Technologies).
Something tells me Portable, Mobile, Distributed Cloud Infrastructure is about to become a reality! Distributed microClouds/nanoClouds will be a hoot!!
Such a boon for future Automotive EV Ecosystems that have to derive revenue and profit from innovative cloud products and services.
Good times are coming! Insanity ensues! Ha!!
More. Yes. Please.
"RISC V is going to change everything." Said some hacker somewhere.
yes for deep dive. Also More Jim Keller is like More cores - always good ;)
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is there a roadmap for a tenstorrent ipo?
Not yet
It appears that there is a manufacturer focused on all market segments from IoT, phones, laptop, desktop servers and DPUs. These are exciting times.
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The past 10 years have been really fascinating watching how designs change based on compute needs and what tradeoffs to make in the full system and all the optimizations at the instruction level on up.
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Super interesting content!! Thank you!!!
Ascalon analysis pretty please ❤
Still need open source synthesis tools and whatever the software is to used to physically modify the actual doped area.
If a larger company wanted to include some of Tenstorrent’s IP/chips on package would Tenstorrent permit them access?
Assuming they become popular and used for a lot of tasks it may be nice to move their package from an add in board to an on package solution.
Yup, that's one business model
I suspect that if this were to happen, Tenstorrent would licence it just like Intel and AMD cross licence x86 technology. The uptake and success then depends on price and licensing restrictions. Which is where you start to lose any benefit of the open ISA... you become wholly dependent on one company.
Excellent video. Thank for the content and I wish Jim and his company success in ramping risc-v designs and bringing them to market.
When you mention they have laptop designs, are they windows laptop designs or some other OS?
Finally, Santa Clara, isn’t that where intel is? So Jim is just down the street eh?
Almost everyone has a Santa Clara office. But on laptop designs, probably not Windows, but a Chromebook or Linux most likely.
@@TechTechPotato I figured that it would be Linux-based as my understanding was that windows didn’t have a risc-v port. I wish them success. Good to see Jim do good things.
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After the tech restrictions with China I expect RISC-V will grow in leaps and bounds especially in China. They have GNU toolchain and can run Linux. From a security point of view RISC-V on Linux from multinationals will be better than using US controlled tech. I personally like the idea of a third instruction set in mainstream not controlled by US. This will improve competition and innovation. The x86 instruction set and extensions have barely changed in 10 years and even ARM is mostly just modifications to old instruction sets apart from the 64 bit extensions. RISC-V ISC already supports 64 bit. But this AI acceleration looks vary exciting I will keep an eye on this company may become a NVidia competitor in the future.
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05:00 is that 1200 GiB/s or 1200 Gib/s ethernet?
Awesome
I'd like to see a chat between Jim Keller and Jeff Hawkings 🤯
Enjoyed the video
I would also very much like to see a deep dive into how these new chips and how they might be leveraged for robotics.
I’m extremely interested in the architecture of the chip along with more of the design philosophy. I very specific applications in mind.
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So it has all riscv instruction sets?
Great video , 🎉❤
I want to invest in Tenstorrent right now. In 10 years time they could be something major
LOL, Jim made me lough when talking about the blue screens of Windows! 😊
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Do you think we will ever see them on a regular desktop?
If you have a regular desktop, then yes. I have several CPUs sitting on my desktop.
Maybe throw Jim´s Mic into the hallway next time. :D
Would each chiplet have its own RAM, and its own storage, say 1meg RAM and 1meg storage?
It would be neat if they could build a consumer graphics processor with RISC-V.
I'm sure it's possible, i just don't know what it would take to make it economical.
What price I bought for use server
unauditable software sucks no matter who or what makes it. Jim begs the question of machine-generated software by assuming software is not auditable, then using that as a justification for unauditable machine-generated software. We're already drowning in sh*t implementations; machine learning can only compound that.
Mainframe class IO at last? For so many cores, there's obvious hurdles with cache coherency unless you go NUMA. And then there's the compiler backends..
11:11 Derivatives for Laptops slide is marked as confidential
I see news about CPUs like the Veyron V1 and V2 RIS-V CPU and they look very interesting, but I cant see any motherboards or systems using them that you can buy. Does anyone know if there such a motherboard/system and where to get them?
They're not in production yet. Unless you're a leading customer perhaps.
@@TechTechPotato is that the v2 not in production yet or both the v1 and V2 not in production?
Actually my question should really be, other than the Milk-V Pioneer, are there any other commercially available CPU/motherboard/complete systems with 64+ cores. I would be very interested in these. Thank you if you are able to help.
I heard there would be one open source Core design ... is that enough given the boost RISC-V has given them? $0.02
How many years do you think it'll take before RISC-V processors can comfortably rival high-power ARM processors of today?
Not many at all. You see ARM put their licence fees up and coupled to the issue with the US banning Western chip technology to China, the country wants to switch to open source RISC-V ASAP. The idea is they can build all the tool chains and compilers from scratch and not be chained to US companies that could be banned from doing business. You see it is like they have their own RUclips and Google, they want their own home-grown software as well. Chiplets were also something they developed to get around the EUV ban. Huawei built the Harmony OS in record time.
probably something like 5 years, the time for the foundation to finalize the ISA extensions and for designers to refine the different microarchitectures. The issue remains the price though.
10? Which is quite fast if we compare to ARM history.
@@reddeimon475 ARM history is quite different. A lot had to be paved before the 2010 decade, both from the company itself and other links of the chain.
Moreover Risc-V benefits from the community shared effort and experience and a clean design as well as huge interests from non-US companies and countries.
@@PainterVierax The community shared effort is not something that's going to help. Companies like this will come up with proprietary, closed CPU designs based on the RISC V ISA, and have complete control over them, then they can charge what they want. This open ISA is nothing like the open software model. The "community" is very different.
It would be nice to have a 128 core CPU to replace Intel or AMD offerings in PCs.
I love the concept of Risc-V, but I have yet to see any way to actually take the files and turn them into a working computer that doesn't involve going right back to a centralized market, since the circuitry to go between the peripherals and the CPU is only manufactured by a handful of Chinese companies, and there is *zero* documentation available on DIY-level motherboard design.
What files? RISC-V is just free instruction sets for a CPU architecture. Nothing else.
What could be a potential use in the consumer space? Could it be an AI add-in card for PCs, analogous to perhaps how many years ago Ageia Physx was intended for physics simulation?
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How deep is the pipeline?
I would love a drop in RISC-V desktop processor. Especially dumping the legacy of hidden "features" within the x86 architecture.
At this moment in time, a Risc V desktop machine would be very slow in comparison to both x86 and ARM. The ISA may be open, but the architectural designs and implementations of actual CPUs haven't yet reached maturity. If a company comes up with a competitive design, they still have to make it competitive in terms of price, availability and third party support.
@@another3997 Its inevitable our understanding of computers will radically change. Today's Internet of things comprised insecure, inflexible embedded systems must evolve. The future resides in leveraging the power of the network to offload and distribute compute over a wide area. New systems comprised of low power NvLink or Mellanox style interconnects could alter how humans interpret or view what a "computer" is.
It's possible, our isolated single purpose built machines will be enhanced then superseded by networks comprised of embedded nodes, where openness and security are paramount. As for today, there are legitimate security concerns within proprietary hardware design. For example, it would great to upgrade or deny "features " within the Intel ME.
When it comes to a "drop in" solution for the desktop, low power options focusing on security and scalability would be interesting. New add in cards which promote "low cost" data science would be great! The RTX 8000, A100 are unaffordable, power hungry and overkill for smaller tasks.
Ian, How does it compares to Cerebras?
How does open-source work for hardware ? Do you have to put the designs made from open source IP into the public domain, just as a GPLv3 software license would enforce ?
I'm not sure what specific license they use, but it's not GPL. It allows proprietary designs. RISC-V is an ISA, i.e. a list of possible instructions and their binary format, including several optional extensions for things like floating point math, vectorization, etc. Designing the circuitry to interpret those instructions and do the actual work, that's up to the manufacturer, and designs will vary widely in how they do that. That part does not need to be open source. Companies don't have to publish their verilog files or litho masks. All it means is that manufacturers don't have to pay royalties to use that instruction set.
@@DFPercush Risc V is pushed by Berkeley, so the ISA is BSD licensed, which is known as a permissive license that allows forks to get proprietary licensed (unlike a copyleft license like the GPL).
There are many Risc-V cores designed, some are opensourced but the majority are closed sourced.
Dare I hope for a RISC-V chip that is a direct competitor with the Raspberry Pi RP2040? Including something like the RP's PIO state machines and (as long as I am dreaming) the ability to run micro python programs?
Would love to see how "easy" (or hard) it is to port a neural net made for x86 cpu to a tenstorrent compute card. In my case it's written in c++ without any ml specific libraries. Interested to see what kind of structures, algorithms or kind of compute it support for acceleration.
For Tenstorremt I think you need to write your AI in Pytorch. Everyone is already using Pytorch for AI anyway so it is much more efficient for them to focus their efforts on creating tools for Pytorch only.
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More Uarch details would be much appreciated
are they going to market?
he right about auditing in projects of that scale
I just had a thought IAN, risc-v is an open source instruction set for CPU, could someone release an open source GPU architecture so both cpu and gpu are open source? Takecare.
Whether the ISA is open or closed, makes very little difference to the end customers. Because the companies designing and building chips using that ISA are still able to make their chip designs proprietary and closed source. Just like a program written using an open source language doesn't have to be free or open.
will the CPU be available for anyone to buy?
How much DDR can the top chip address? Is it over over 256GB or are these just toys still?
Cool gizmo, but I'm putting it along with photonics, germanium substrate and spintronics in the "No it can't run Crysis" bucket.
Will Skynet be run by RISC V? This is vital information for the future of humanity! If I get some ambition and can find information I find palatable I will try to go down the Architecture rabbit hole.
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God, so many exiting improvement, but none of them for end users like us.
I want a deep dive into Askelon architecture please 😸🔥
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uArch breakdowns please!
16:53 In the open-source world there are several examples of large code bases being successfully maintained over periods of decades. The largest one is probably the Linux kernel, currently at about 20 million lines. They have a policy that nothing stays in the code base without a maintainer to respond to bug reports. If nobody is able to handle problems with a piece of code, then it gets dropped--as Microsoft discovered the hard way, when it was contributing patches for Hyper-V.
The open source software world is very different to the Risc V open ISA world. It's only the Instruction Set that is open. Chip designers are free to implement whatever features and chip designs they want using that Instruction Set. Think of Risc V as like a programming language, the built in commands are fixed by the creators of the language, but the 3rd party software can be written any way the programmer wants. And the language creators have no control over that.
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Is there a future in programming? I’m a tired the way through my degree and have a good job *for now* and I’m worried about my future
@@leeroyjenkins0 that sounds like the natural outcome. But the thing is since GPT, being more productive at existing tasks is how I’m *currently* using it. That’s the starting point, so it might only evolve from there and displace what I’ve worked for. I busted my arse for years labouring and for a while in service too so after pivoting career and really finding happiness in my work it’s a bit of a kick in the guts to not know what’s coming.
I’d love to see posits running on RISC V
I'm wondering how accessible making a custom RISC-V chip is because while the ISA is open and low cost, producing anything on a recent process is very high cost.
It seems that this won't really be accessible to academia, but will be to significant sized companies with lots of resources.
Plenty of university shuttles today already building RISC-V designs.
@@TechTechPotato can an FPGA implement a RISC-V design? I imagine it might, since even ASIC are just connected groups of gates and memory.
@@davidgunther8428 Sure, if you get a good enough FPGA, but it would probably have garbage performance. FPGAs don't tend to have very high clock speeds, usually maxing out around a few hundred MHz. And you wouldn't have much room for cache or extra cores.
It's a case of companies designing workable CPUs that can be produced cheaply whilst still having some kind of performance or energy consumption benefits over the competition. Remember, the ISA is open, but the CPU designs themselves are most likely to be proprietary, and a lot depends on how much companies charge to use their design.
One of most interesting part was why chiplets, and that you don't have choice. Question is, what Nvidia think about it? Because they more and more looks as giant with clay legs.
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I love this content. I watch it when my wife is out the house.
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You needed a 2nd mic:/
I'd love to see a microarch deep dive.
I’m more on the side of Casey Moratory, AI is just a good way to find new ways todo normal Algorithms but we first have to bridge the gap between abstract model and reality. It’s also great for very dumb stuff that one wouldn’t want todo themselves anyway. If we don’t find out how to get away with the black box we will be unable to advance as simple as it is.
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Sad to see Keller resorting to voodoo at the end of that interview. Modularity is an engineering principle that allows us to reason about a five million line program. Safety critical systems don't run on Windows.
And the guy cautiously omitted that opensource licensing already allows thousands of people to audit that code in search for bugs, vulnerabilities or ways to optimize.
I have seen plenty of medical equipment still being run on windows at least at the interface level (and that too in xp sometimes - the horrors)
The average joe couldn't care less of safety critical systems sadly
Lots of embedded systems run windows or obsolete OS's. It's a major security problem, because your milling machine has a windows NT controller and they don't support it any more, or your switch runs CentOS 7.9 and you can upgrade the OS to Rocky 9 but good luck getting the drivers and switch CLI to run on that because the mfgr doesn't give out source and the drivers are behind a high paywall on the silicon vendor's web site.
@@tristan7216 MS' own EULA says windows is not to be used in safety critical systems. Workers are not supposed to be anywhere within the swing of a mill while it is under numeric control, and CNC machines are user-programmed, it's not windows' place to refuse a command that crashes the milling head into a part
Surely if you buy a machine with a six- or seven-figure price tag, you would also extract some binding commitments about the support of that machine that would last the expected lifetime of its usefulness. Continuing to use something that is unsupported simply because you cannot afford to replace it means you are just one failure (hardware or software) away from bankruptcy.
Is RISC-V really an architecture or just an instruction set?
As William said, it's not an architecture. But it's more than just an ISA as its modular design is able to scale in a wide range of specialized products and the permissive license allows manufacturers to expand even further.
There are few opensource cores to base a design from but most of the big actors (like Sifive) are developing their own proprietary designs.
I'm genuinely excited about RISC-V, I hope it replaces both x86 (32- and 64-bit) as well as ARM (Cortex A and M) in the medium future.
Many companies are gonna move from ARM, as they recently announced extreme price hikes.
Given that RISC-V is already shipping in the billions of cores, that puts x86 at number 3 or number 4 in the market.
@@lawrencedoliveiro9104 The problem with your logic is fairly obvious. X86 has a totally different market to either ARM or RISC V. It's like saying JCB has a tiny share of the entire automobile market. Several of the fastest supercomputers ever made are based on the IBM POWER architecture... and most people have never even heard of that. Most of the other top 500 Supercomputers use x86.
That is unlikely to ever happen, for a variety of reasons.
@@another3997 Following your same logic, you are trying to imply that RISC-V will not be successful until it takes over the construction-equipment market.
avoid deep prediction pipelines, make more cores with vectorization instead to amortize instruction latency
Yes more hardware deep explanation
How is Risc-V any different to all the other risc chips that didn't take over? I assume it's just the same old risc on latest fabrication technologies. Won't it be the same underlying business challenge that has failed before?
😂 ARM is a Reduced Instruction Set Computer core.