I will now be proved correct about 6v6 for half an hour
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- Опубликовано: 17 июн 2024
- I WAS RIGHT, I've always been right! In January I did a quick explainer of the design space with new tank heroes placed into the space. Nowadays, I've been running 6v6 pugs, and hot damn is this fun as hell.
Join us 4-8pm BST Every alternate Sunday starting on 06/16/24, and we can get you straight into a lobby to meet people gather friends and enjoy the videogame once again!
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Streaming Overwatch Coaching Friday-Sunday 4-8pm GMT
/ realth
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0:00 Intro
7:20 Pugs Start
7:32 Winston D.va
7:51 Rein D.va
8:07 JQ Zarya
10:08 JQ D.va
10:39 Rein D.va vs Mauga Sigma
The real solution is 0v0 that way nobody plays and lives better lives as a result
So... overwatch 7?
Blizzard deserves to fail and fail hard, for so many reasons
We’d just find something else to sink our time into. It’s not the games fault people can’t walk away after only a reasonable amount of play time, it’s the persons fault. It’s called accountability.
"they have gotten rid of extending characters pressure cycles" is a perfect way to put it. only having the one set of tank cooldowns limits what the role as a whole can achieve so much and no matter how much they power creep supports or buff hp it will never fix that core problem
i think 6v6 is the solution but blizzard has exasperated their bad design philosophy with “do everything” heroes. soj and kiri have been busted since their release partly due to tiny hitboxes but mostly having some of the best movement abilities in the game, insane damage output, get out of jail options and cc (i’m counting suzu as cc). Would be nice to see some of these problematic heroes nerfed in a 6v6 format as well
If I remember correctly there’s only so much you can do with the workshop, for instance I believe it’s impossible to take invulnerability off suzu. I’m sure if they could they’d further gut the ability
And yet Ana still doesn't have a movement ability despite being a sniper that needs high ground to get good angles and needing to get away.
I remember when streamers used to coach on knowing the health pack locations in each map. And it was considered part of the game and skill expression to know the maps. Now we have passives and health is ridiculously high…and I never hear anything about health packs.
Exactly
Before the passive heal for all roles was added it was so unfun to play any of the newer maps because for whatever reason they started placing less health packs on the map and the one you could find were just 75HP, instead of 250HP. Can't understand why they ever did that shit.
@@rizaadon
Because Blizzard is just cold hearted like that
Health packs are more important now than ever. Since supports are mostly doing damage if you get hit they don’t want to heal you, they want to shoot as well, so it’s best to use the health packs near by.
Knowing the health packs is still a useful skill, but it's definitely not talked about like it was in OW1 or early OW2
The one argument I never hear in favour of 6v6 is the potential Ult synergy. One of my favourite things about the game is when you and your team can pull out crazy combos with your Ults and not having a 2nd tank just kinda minimizes what you can do.
I’d love to see a Ram ulting into a friendly Mauga’s cage, or JQ rampaging through a Grav.
Just being able to cleave one more person gives a massive extra boost in gamefeel for everyone imo!
I'd honestly take that, if I as tank split from my other tank and make myself a problem, the opponent might want to spend one to isolate the other, or vice versa
Bring back October 2020 6V6
jq in 6v6. i want it sooo bad
i think remove the poke category from tank and then ow1 would have been 100x better instantly
I think blizzard had no clue how to design poke tanks in general, remember that the first 5 tanks were rein winston Zarya dva and hog, 4/5 are the most beloved heroes ever, and they then proceeded to fumble the bag for 6 years. Orisa being called an anchor tank was a canary in a coal mine!
Tbh poke tank as a concept always seemed dumb to me
Having Ranged Tanks improves the health/diversity of the game. It's just Fortify and Kinetic Grasp were too effective at making Orisa + Sigma survive brawl and dive comps once they got past the barriers.
You had me with the synergies, you won me with the mauga bin
EDIT: tanking in overwatch 2 is like sex: Great with someone, depressing and lonely alone.
such an underrated content creator, your videos feel so professionally made. Watching this feels as if you've been making videos for years. You're one lucky push from the algorithm away from being the next big ow creator
That dva/mercy player was so goated, didnt lose a single game. Dunno who that is :>
Was fun to play dva with another tank but my brain is so used to 5v5 that i wanted to be iniciator all the time 😂😂 and forgot to dm my tank in need. Ops!!! I think that tank really benefit most of 6v6 is 100% rein and mauga. Without dps passive even mercy could keep that beast alive for so long. Doom would probably not be as effective as in 5v5 and i dont think we ever picked him for that reason. Maybe next pugs someone will be brave enough.
I think doom could be very impactful, but his frontline presence would be 0
Great to see another upload from you! Just wondering did you see the youroverwatch video about 5v5 v 6v6
would it be possible to get the workshop code? I'd be interested to run some games with some skeptic friends of mine that still deny of the possibilities 6v6 could bring and i feel a hands on approach would change their minds, anyways great video
7HSKW
@@realthlive7124 didn't expect it you to respond so quickly damn, thanks!
Whats the donkey kong song through the first half? Its so nostalgic
Stickerbrush Symphony
@realthlive7124 thank you XD
One reason why tank queues are low in OW1 was because the little content added to tanks compared to other roles is astounding. OW 1 added orisa (boring, only impactful after several buffs and people were more hyped for Doomfist instead), Wrecking Ball (He was fun but very hard for casuals to pick up and be useful), then sigma( who was impactful and fun and viable) DPS got Sombra(hype cos the ALGs) Doomfist ( At the time EVERYONE was hyped for him) Ashe( Very useful and BOB is memes)and Echo(who was fun and copy ability everyone was interested in) Supports got Ana, moira, brigette,baptise which all broke the meta when they all released and all fun and exciting. Furthermore for reworks tank got 1(DVA) ,DPS got 4 (bastion, sym, torb and hanzo) and support got 1(Mercy). Overall tanks barely got any fun content compared the other characters and got shafted in OW2. Moreover with 6v6 we got Junker,ram,mauga plus two reworks orisa and doom. To fix queue times they need more tank content they ACTUALLY attracts players into it and imo tanks need more heroes than support does atm
And people forget the place where the role started, 5 tanks vs 4 supports and 13 dps. We never started from an even playing field, and support uniquely got to attract an additional player-base of people who didn’t want to interact with the fps mechanics.
We never started from an even playing field, the playing field got more one sided every year since launch, and then we got dumped into double shield at the same time blizzard started caring about the distribution.
Tanks never stood a chance.
You can give Reinhart pharah jetpacks and Lucio speed boost and your average casual player will still play genji 95% of the time
Dont click this comment if you dont want to read a book rn lmao
Why couldnt we reduce CC abilities, go Free To Play, and have an extra 3 whole tanks (Not even including the more fun TO USE, even if not as fun to play against, Orisa rework), while still having content added to the game, before swapping to 5v5?
Some people really sit there saying 5v5 is better, yet we didnt even try 5v5 vs 6v6 in an EVEN SETTING.
(No doubt some 5v5'ers are looking at how annoying it usually is to kill tanks in 5v5, and theyre just thinking "NAH i dont wanna have 2 raid bosses on the enemy team at once, 6v6 sounds horrible". No bro, thatd be actual torture. 6v6 means lowering the tanks stats and certain abilities a good amount, not just throw a 2nd fully unkillable Hog, Orisa, Mauga or whatever on each team as-is. Would also rework any parts of any character that need it)
LIKE BRUHHHH there is NO WAY to be sure until you try them both EVENLY
_____________________________
TLDR: Some people are wearing CRIMSON tinted glasses imo, if thats even a saying.
OW 2 is full of fluff that makes it SEEM worthy of the "Sequel" tag.
I prefer 6v6 but yes, sometimes it was really annoying and felt impossible to win, kinda often in my experience. BUUUT SO DOES 5v5.
In OW 1 you had to shoot at tons of shields sometimes yeah, but that could happen even if you had to go against Rein Zarya, since Rein had more shield back then AND there were less open maps. Itd be harder to get past a shielded team on Temple Of Anubis or Eichenwalde compared to the Push and Flashpoint maps that allow you to try taking a bunch of different angles. Rein Zarya werent a problem, but if you had played against Sigma Orisa double shield in your previous match, youd probably not be too happy about seeing more shields in your face again in the next match, even if theyre from much more fun and fair type heroes, leading some people to decide that the tank role as a whole is a problem. Even tho its just a couple of bad ones alongside some bad supports and abilities
In OW 2 You shoot actual players more often, but their health bars are like 3x as long and FULL of green and orange segments.
If you do get a character low health in either OW 1 or 2, OW 2 has more denial abilities
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OFCOURSE 5v5 gonna look quite a lot better when its wrapped neatly in its package of:
o FREE TO PLAY!!!!!
...hey wait wouldnt free to play be good for bringing in more potential tank players in a 6v6 setting too? not just a 5v5 one? Especially with the CC changes and reworks? shouldnt we have at least PROPERLY TRIED F2P while still in 6v6..?
o HERO REWORKS!!!!!
(Like the Sombra one that ended up being so bad, they had to RE-Rework her... and was probably partly just done to further make OW 2 look like it actually had some kind of reason to exist, when it actually doesn't. At least not as much as theyre trynna make it look like it does...)
o LESS CROWD CONTROL ABILITIES!!!!!
NO MORE MEI FREEZE OR LONG HACK ABILITY LOCKOUT. YOU KNOW, TWO CHANGES THAT WOULDVE HELPED TANKING IN OW 1 FEEL LESS BAD.
NO MORE FLASHBANG OVER YOUR SHIELD.
LESS DOOMFIST CC (kinda) SINCE HE WILL BE LOSING A CC ABILITY. HIS PUNCH DOES LESS THAN HALF THE DAMAGE IT USED TOO
o NEW HERO/MAP EVERY OTHER SEASON, WITH NEW GAMEMODES SOMETIMES!!!
YEP, THOSE THINGS WE STOPPED GIVING YOU DURING 6V6 BECAUSE WE WERE "WORKING" ON THE PVE WE WERENT ACTUALLY GOING TRHOUGH WITH!!
o DOUBLE SHIELD??? NOT POSSIBLE ANYMORE LMAO I feel very, very small... please hold me...
YOU GUYS LIKE IT WHEN A SINGLE HERO CAN DO TOO MUCH, AND WHEN PAIRED WITH ANOTHER HERO THAT BARELY HAS ANY DOWN TIME, THE GAME FEELS BAD??
DO YOU LIKE HOW BOTH ORISA AND SIGMA HAVE 2 SUSTAIN ABILITIES, AND A STUN/BOOP ABILITY, WHILE HAVING HIGH DAMAGE? WELL THOSE TANKS WONT BE TOGETHER ANYMORE, BUT DONT WORRY!
WE ARE ADDING A SUPPORT HERO THAT HAS 2 WAYS TO KEEP THEMSELF ALIVE, HIGH BURST DMG AND THEY HAVE AN IMMORTALITY THAT WILL MAKE YOU UNBOOPABLE AND IT WILL CLEANSE DEBUFFS LIKE ANTI-NADE OR DISCORD.
THEYVE GOT AN INSANLEY POWERFUL ULT THAT DOES WHAT NO ONE ELSE CAN DO.
UP EVERYONES ATTACK, RELOAD AND COOLDOWN SPEED.
why wait until OW 2 to rework horse? OHHH maybe so OW 2 has another bit of fluff added to it to look worthy of being a sequel
o P V E
yeah no lmao we made most of it up to fluff up OW 2's launch ez gg
fr tho can we get Uprising, Retribution and Storm Rising missions back as permanently playable modes?
o TEMPLE OF A-LOSE-THIS?? HANAMURA?? ZARYA PLACE IDK HOW TO SPELL?? - NEVER AGAIN!!!!!
THE TWO CAPTURE POINT GAMEMODE WILL BE GETTING THE SAME TREATMENT AS ALL OUR SYSTMES THAT DEFINITELY 100% DESERVED IT, AND TOTALLY WASNT DONE JUST SO OW 2 WOULD LOOK A LITTLE LESS SIMILAR TO OW 1 HAHA HEEHEE.. AND THEN WE WILL ADD A SIX CAPTURE POINT GAMEMODE!! HAVE FUN!
We will also have Assault (2CP) be available in arcade now, alongside 481 other different modes simultaneously.
Huh? Put a 6v6 mode in arcade every few days? NAHH that would be too far and would spilt the playerbase.
We have like 13 modes available all at once: qp role + roless, comp role + roless, mystery heroes, FFA (Free For All Deathmatch), No limits + whatever other modes we feel like, + Custom Games.
All those modes dont split the playerbase too much nahhhh.
6v6 would absolutely decimate the queue times for everything tho just like in OW 1. Trust us bro fr fr no lie. We at Blizzard know best
.Rip LFG (Looking For Group). Wasnt THAT popular but saw some use
.Rip Nicer looking (IMO) Endorsement System with the green and purple endorsement types that went alongside the orange ones we have right now
.Rip Flame Point NUMBER System that was iconic, and allowed you to see how much in % you contributed to an elimination. If you did 150 dmg to someone with 200 hp total, youd get 75 fire points (I THINK). Just nice info for those that were interested in knowing how helpful they were.
.Rip Old Leveling System, that was then replaced with a leveling system... so basically removing the levels at the launch of OW 2 only really served to make it feel like a new slate, a brand new start, a new game that is 100% not just a texture pack with some missing features and dead ideas of what might have been possible at some point in time...(Those 3 story missions that have to be bought)
Swap to OW 2 5v5 today and you can once again experience the joy of possibly getting to play a brand new character that just might become your new main, just like those old days before we left OW 1 to rot in the sun!
Our new heroes from now on will even be able to have MORE INTERESTING Playstyles! (Straight up lie)
(Not every problem with either the 6v6 or 5v5 format is unfixable, however we dont know how to fix the solvable issues that arise with 5v5, and we DONT WANT to fix the solvable issues of 6v6 unless the solution does not involve us looking like we made a mistake at some point, so we are moving to 5v5 eitherway. You are too, because OW 1 servers are getting shutdown whether you want 5v5 or not. No vote. No questions. No opinions. ez gg)
You want to know why we DIDNT at least try the huge CC reduction and F2P ideas during 6v6 to see what it wouldve been like?
Simple. Its because we know what you want, even before you know you want it. What you want now is to forget about all our past mistakes, and turn your attention to our new and improved shop!
Look how generous we are by ALWAYS discounting many of our single items and bundles of multiple items... even if the items were never and are never going to be put on sale for the higher price. So it just LOOKS like they were more expensive at one point, or will be, convincing you to act fast before the price changes.
At some point a Ow dev said people who want 6v6 back are wearing Rose Tinited Glasses, right?
Bruh idk if there is an opposite version of the saying, but ima make one up now if there aint. Crimson Tinted Glasses.
Im convinced most of the loud 5v5'ers voicing their opinions are in one of 3 groups -
Group 1. theyr actually putting thought into the 6v6 vs 5v5 discussion and considering the possibilities whether they played OW 1 or not, and still decide they prefer 5v5. Great
Group 2. they didnt play OW 1 at all, or only played a little bit, and yet theyr talking as tho they KNOW that 5v5 would be the better option for sure. Cringe
Group 3. they are wearing Crimson Tinted Glasses. they think of the times they got frustrated in OW 1 and dont want to go back to it (even tho the point is if we went to 6v6 again, itd HOPEFULLY be balanced better than the state it was in before, which IS possible), and/or of the times theyve gotten frustrated with tanks in OW 2 and just assume that 6v6 means 2 undefeatable pre-nerf Orisa-type tanks on the enemy team, while assuming their own tanks will run around like headless chickens.
To the type of 6v6'ers that say 6v6 would magically fix everything, no, it would not, so please dont say it would, as ive heard so many 5v5'ers say that ALL of us 6v6'ers do happen to think it would.
OW 1 had MANY problems, and still would if we were to just swap back to old 6v6 rn without changing enough things around. Besides you cant "fix" everything anyway due to the amount of different perspectives people can have on different things in the game.
You can probably however get about 40-60% of the playerbase happy with the games general balance state, which seems a lot higher than whatever it probably is right now, or has been for the past 4 years. Yes, truthly im pulling those numbers out of my ass, but they feel accurate lmao. Think about how often you hear loooads of people complaining about this games balance. It can be every day. In qp, arcade, custom and comp match chats, youtube comments, youtube videos, stream comments and other places. Its gotta be way more often than is normal for a game of this type surely
I like you, you can stay.
My life goal is complete. I am glad. Thank you
The book has been read
Whether you agree with me or not, ty for taking the time. The book would have been longer if not for the character limit issues i had lmao. I could rant so much, but had to delete some sections
@@miceinrice a fellow essay writer in comment sections, :0
I just feel like 6v6 sometimes encourages stacking players and resources on single lanes more than 5v5, I also feel like the game becomes even more about economy and less about mechanics. I do feel that 6v6 is more stable in a way, outcomes are more directly linked to resource trades and advantages etc... 5v5 is more prone to random swings in fights related to individual hero plays or conversely individual feeds.
I entirely agree on the single lane stacking being a real issue for 6v6. The rooting of advantageous positions is one of the pain points of the game in general, from 2cp, to double shield, to mercy making the angles too strong. Personally i feel that the game needs to be carefully constructed so that the glue in the game which promotes clumping is equally balanced with the rocks in the game which break clumps with aoe damage.
Even in 5v5, we get stuff like the mauga meta this season where sustain resources are way too strong, and you end up giving up all angular control for an unstoppable brawl cycle.
With no double shield, and no strong aoe support in the game, things get a lot less unstoppable to break with a pressure cycle.
In terms of neutral flat ground linear fights with no off angles, 6v6 definitely favours that more than 5v5. But 6v6 has a much more meaningful frontline resource trade and therefore handles that type of game much bettter.
For instance, theres a reason why we have to remove the glass on colloseo. Its because the game fundamentally cant survive a linear engagement in a healthy way in 5v5, which used to be one of the core components of the game and a lot of the variety in the game.
Kings row used to be the most beloved map in the game, and now I know loads of people who hate it. So is bringing the linear maps and play back into the game bad, or is it just increasing the depth of design styles which can be played in a healthy way?
Would Doom function as a main tank or an off tank? I think he'd be a strong pick with Zarya but idk what other tanks he would work with.
Doom is a more independent initiator similar to ball, meaning that he can make space without resources, or break a fortified poke position with resources. He can be paired with either offtanks to give him resources or poking tanks to capitalise on the space created by his pressure
early iterations of the gm+ lobbies on this code was dva doom, I think right now they are playing Mauga Doom
@@placidflunky6642 mauga is so fucked again 💀
Since he has less hp ( presumably he'd have 400 in a 6v6 world) and since he's more of an offensive tank and , he'd fall more in the of tank category. Tho he's good with zarya and dva, I guess doom would be a jack of all trades tank that can fit into a lot of comps, especially with his carry potential
I've only played ow 2 weeks ago, 6v6 looks uncanny 😅
I miss u 6v6...
I'm wondering; how would a 7V7 go?
Whats the difference between dive and rush??
Don't even play OW but I am gonna watch this video and enjoy
thats my goat right there
7v7 no hero limits with unlimited avoid as teammate slots
cope, a lot of cope
how are yalll playing 6v6
it is a custom gamemode and channel called sunday scraps that host 6v6 custom games
Playing 6v6 pugs every other Sunday in my discord at 4pm bst!
I'm glad the only clips of me are the flattering ones
Everything you do is flattering
Placid!
See the issue is yall never talk about lower ranks all this really advanced 50p iq fun tank stuff only happened if A me and my partner were duoed or B if we got lucky.
People legit had to lock the other tank out of picking something done and even then they'd just throw till they got their tank, or we'd be stuck with 1 guy on a tank they don't play and 1 guy simply locking a tank to keep the guy who was trash off said tank.
I'd play ow regardless 5v5 or 6v6 but people never talk or considered the low ranks never if its brought up its dismissed made fun of but people never talk about it.
ieToastie is my hero
It's just not even funny anymore how obvious it is that 6v6 is superior in every way. Makes me sad, I miss the better Overwatch.
Those 6v6 pugs look SO. DAMN. FUN!!!!
I am all for 6v6, as long as there is only 1 tank 😂
Boo! 👻
@@realthlive7124 I really like the suggestion from the last Group Up podcast about having a flex slot. 6v6 with one tank and one flex would be good enough without destroying queue times
@@ReedoTV You’d inevitably end up with the same queue time death spiral from the priority pass system, where people queue for the flex spot just to hard lock whatever they want with faster queue times. I find all of these half measures always end up with some kind of issue like this, the only real way to balance the roles I’ve heard of is to treat all the roles with proper care.
@@realthlive7124 Tbf I was a tank main in OW1 because they paid me 25 coins just to finish a game on tank.
I would buy a new voice line or spray each time I lost 😂
Could you balance it? Sure.
Could you get enough Tank players for 6v6 Role Queue? No. Like not even slightly.
Could 6v6 Open Queue with 2x maximum Tanks/Supports per team work? Sure. But I'd argue they should just replace existing Open Queue with that.
Unless you can solve around this kind of Algebra, then 6v6 Role Queue does not work.
* 2 is 100% larger than 1
* 1x match of 6v6 has 100% more Tank players per match than 5v5
* 5x matches of 6v6 has 100% more Tank players per match than 5v5
* 100,000x matches of 6v6 has 100% more Tank players per match than 5v5
* To queue an equal number of matches of 6v6 compared to 5v5, with the current number of Tanks, would have 100% larger queue times
* UNKNOWN #1: Some amount of Tank players would rejoin or change the that role for 6v6
* UNKNOWN #2: Some amount of Tank players will leave the role, or quit, if the game goes to 6v6, and they have to nerf Tank back down to OW1 power levels. (I.e. Make Tank less of a Fat DPS, then you get less DPS mains playing Tank)
* It is virtually impossible to get more than 100% more Tank players while getting 0% more DPS players, so you'd need probably many times more Tank players than listed above. i.e. 200% to 400%.
@@greyfalconow9467 I don’t think there’s a convincing argument that tank playerbase numbers couldn’t be as high as dps or support.
OW1 had 5 tanks on launch, one of which was hog, and didn’t receive substantial diversity in the cast for years. Ball was the only well received addition when it comes to playstyle and that took over two years to release.
Then the game was given sigmas release at the same time as role lock was put into the game, and the tank experience was made even more miserable.
Bad experience + lack of hero diversity means a low playerbase.
Ow2 is currently struggling with the exact same issue, the experience is bad, and the hero diversity is low because you in most cases can’t pick what you want to pick, so it’s got low and decreasing tank numbers. We’ve still got the tank queue problem, and it’s currently getting worse.
I can’t argue that it would for sure be solved by tank having a reasonable gameplay experience, but I do know that there’s no example of a similar game where tanks were given a good gameplay experience and player bases continued to be low, only hand wavey arguments of “people don’t tend to like tank in games and that’s the reason why people don’t play tank in overwatch”
@@greyfalconow9467this changes if the game becomes 6v6, people would actually play the tank role. As of now, it is unbearable. This is possible, in the october 2020 update, queue times were good because the game was in a balanced/good state - and this was when the game was locked behind a paywall. your argument is pretty weak
@@menuvafei6164 Dude, do I really need to explain how gullible af it is to mention October 2020 patch like it was any good?
@@realthlive7124 Well, what have they done to make Tank more enjoyable between OW2 Season 1 and Season 9? That wasn't adding new heroes, or a really anemic regen.
Then once you have that answered, think about how much more self sufficient DPS/Supports are, with Supports also having more downtime to shoot stuff.
Aside from this Season 10.5 patch, they've done almost nothing to make Tank more popular in 2.5 years. But they've done quite a bit to make it less popular.
The only argument I ever see in support of 6v6 is "no 2 tanks bad." Y'all are aware that open queue exists as a competitive mode, right? You can pick 2 tanks in open queue. Do people pick 2 tanks in open queue? No. They do not. Y'all are hypocrites 😂
yeah cuz in open queue the meta is 3 tanks 2 supps lol… or 1 tank 3 dps 1 supp to counter 3-2
@@whatamidoing8266 cool. You're proving my point.
@@TheCommonGround you can’t use open queue as an excuse that 2 tanks are worse for the game simply because role lock was introduced as a response to goats. open queue in 6v6 only saw goats and this revival of goats carried over to 5v5 (hence the 3-2). hth
@whatamidoing8266 my argument was never 2 tanks are bad for the game. This is why y'all can't debate this topic or even understand it because you don't even know what the topic is in the first place.
@@TheCommonGround is your argument not that 2 tanks are suboptimal? you’re comparing apples to oranges lol. if not, then your wording is HORRENDOUS. instead of explaining a possible miscommunication like normal human, you instead feel the need to be condescending… but what can i expect from TheCommonGround anyway