Your channel has grown so much in just the last 5-6 months ive been following!!! So stoked for you man, you deserve every bit of it with all the great content you consistently provide us!! Keep up the good work!
It may just be stronger in a 1 time use scenario like your test. If you install it wrong it may deform easier which may make it stronger THAT time, but after repeated use and deformation, it could become weaker. While the "correct" way does reduce overall strength, but prevents premature deformation making them last longer and stay at the same strength over time
I like how installing it start to bend the metal in a different location. It sets the biner in a different location making the metal tear /break from a stronger point.
Having used concrete screws a lot at work I figured they could be a good option for semi/temporary hanger bolts. I have some cliffs on my property and I wanted to try bolting, these let you to place/remove hangers really fast and allow me to make mistakes without throwing away a glue-in/glue. When I'm happy with a route I'll go back, zip them out and use the same hole with a glue in. (the sandstone can be kinda soft in places). That being said, I hooked some up to my truck in tension and tried to pull them out of the rock (unsuccessfully) before I was totally keen to trust them. I would say the main risk would be overdrilling and over tightening the bolt into softer rock (I use an impact wrench) because it will just start spinning and pull out of the hole. I am also a little hesitant to use the same hole twice with sandstone...the bolts just go in a bit too easy.
I overdrill all of mine and don't have issues? They're supposed to be overdrilled by a 1/4" or something iirc I don't know if you could actually shear the head off one from overtightening it with an impact unless you're using small ones (ex/ 7.5mm Heco Multi-Monts) and a big impact. After having some troubles with 5/16" temporary screws warping, I had a friend recently point out that the smaller screws ( ≤ 5/16" ) can be pretty susceptible to wonkiness of the hole (i.e. non-uniform bore caused by 2-cutter SDS+ bits). He suggested sticking to 4-cutters, although I haven't gotten around to testing it myself. Initially I was thinking that my 18v 1/2"-drive Impact was too rough on them. **I'm working in limestone, typically good quality with minimal chert'n'shit mixed in... PS: I too would be sketched out using the same placement twice in sandstone (like... red rocks sandstone... not the quartzite stuff)
@@rachelhasbruises I should have clarified, by overdrilling I meant by diameter, in the softer stuff if you aren't steady or wiggle the sds side to side like they sometimes instruct you to do into concrete you can make the hole a bit too wide. I'm not too worried about shearing the head off, (I use 10mm galvanised screws) but if I hold down the trigger on my impact socket wrench it can just keep twisting that screw until it spins freely in the hole. In the end it comes down to experience with the equipment. I even prefer to use a worn down sds bit because it makes them a little more snug.
i'd like to sound smart in here, but I can't. So I'm gonna go ahead and pin it on bobby's magical hands. If the legend wants it to be strong, the hanger will oblige.
From 9:50 until 10:05 I think the 10+kN from the MBS might be from the carabiner biting into the concrete. Look at how much is being gouged from the surface, I think scraping the concrete is inflating the actual strength of the anchor
That new Fixe hanger... anti-rotation dimples, rounded edges and 316 steel, it looks like the love-child of Petzl Coeur and fixe's original hanger. Could just be the best of both? All I have to add is avoiding mixing 304 (-0.5volts) and 316 (-0.4volts) in marine environments, but away from saltwater it's no big deal.
Yeah, it would be pretty nice since it's a better alternative when having to "move" bolts (which just means pounding one in and placing another) or pound in a faulty wedge bolt (wedge bolts are the standard that we use in our mostly bomber granite). Although right now, it seems pretty cost prohibitive compared to wedge bolts but not compared to Powers 5 piece bolts (probably much cheaper than those). I think it will all depend on application. Personally, when you're putting up anywhere from 30-100 routes per year, cost really matters, especially these days with rising costs. I know Tom O'Halloran ("pro" climber and Olympian in Australia) has used the same or similar kind of concrete screws for bolting on sandstone in the Blue Mountains. He uses them as temporary bolts, then replaces them using the same hole with homemade stainless U-bolt glue ins. They seem extremely useful for bolting in steep terrain and bolting ground up when you just have to slam in a bunch of bolts to get up the wall, then actually figure out where the real bolts are going to go later. For a while, I think he left one in that he was clipping and potentially falling on with his 5.15 project at Elphinstone in the Blue Mountains.
Don't worry, it'll be in the 2021 update of the Bolting Bible (at least in the caving section hahah). There's been good success with them both underground and above ground.
on the topic of ISO or EN standards.... you need a University student or faculty member with digital library access. most universities have unlimited access to download any ISO, EN and in the UK BS standards from one if the national bodies. its a breach of copyright to forward those to you but its unlikely to get the person in any trouble. I had a colleague was getting them for a company I worked for and he was politely asked to stop as my company should be paying for them (staff in the company were on a bord that revised some of the standards )
I think stainless titans are possibly the future of good climbing bolts. Price is probably the only thing really stopping it at this point. Can get good stainless expansion bolts cheaper, at least with eBay and when you are thinking short bolts for granite. Good long stainless expansion bolts for sandstone are still not that cheap, including what you can find on eBay. Titans are easy to install, easy to remove cleanly and quickly without a fancy spinner tool and luck (you can re-use the existing hole), could use the 3/8" hole as-is for a small glue-in or drill out to 1/2" for a larger glue-in or expansion bolt (but why would you go expansion other than price and convenience of not needing to mess with glue?).
I think installing it wrong allows the hanger to bend more, loading it over the full width of the material instead of almost perpendicular to the plane. Installed right you end up loading the edge, making it easier to break.
I think part of the reason comes down to friction between the biner and the concrete. There's contact in all attempts, but in #1 and #4 you can really see it digging(We don't get to see much of the digging in #1 because of the short time we see it from behind). From basic mechanics we say that the force of friction, R, is a function of a frictional constant and the normal force of the ground (R = mu * N). The digging suggest a high normal force. This frictional part of the force is felt by the dynamometer but not by the hanger. It seems extreme that the friction is 10kN so there's probably more going on, but I think it plays an important role. The frictional constant between a horseshoe (which is basically a carabiner, right?) and concrete is 0,67. So if the biner gets pushed down into the ground with 15kN of force the math works out perfectly. And you do need a lot of force to crush concrete.
Ryan, on the concrete screws, have you noticed a difference between the 3" and 4" length screws? is there a significant difference in strength and longevity?
3" only have 2.5-ish inch embedment, so it might behoove you to just use 4" if you're in softer rock like limestone and you're pulling in tension (direct pull-out). Based on the manufacturer specs, the shear strength is the same because that's just with respect the screw diameter. Get yourself an impact driver because you're not going to want to set these big fuckers by hand. Haha
Hey guys nice video but I still like the previous 304 hangers. About those titens do thew work on hard stone like granite or volcanic. I had used dewalt screws and the rock destroys the threads
Stainless or galv? Stainless is more brittle so that might be the cause... :( obviously we can't use galv outside, so you might be in a pickle. Are you using a drill bit for four cutting nubbins? I recently had a peer in the caving community point out that he's had much better success with the four-nubbins (cutters???) bits when bolting in screws. Oh! And if you're using SS deWalt screws, are you using the *Powers* drill bit they tell you to use? DeWalts SS screws are actually 1/16th larger diameter than nominal for [niche-AF reasons I explain in the 2021 Bolting Bible]. If you're not using the matching drill bit for the SS ones then it might be gnarling-up your threads because standard SDS+ bits are making a slightly tighter hole...!
@@rachelhasbruises hello Rachel, thanks for your reply. I'm using a 3/8 bulldog xtreme full carbide head bit, in concrete, the screws work fine. But in this hard stone of Guanajuato when I try to tighten them they get to a point where they just spin and spin without getting any deeper the screws are galvanized, I tried to use them as temporary anchor but After these unsuccessful attempts I switched to fixe triplex and they work excellent, for those I ordered hawera slp plus full carbide head 12mm bits which are basically the same than bulldog xtreme
I think since your force meter is sampling peak forces at some frequency, as the hanger pivots, that pivoting is not actually that smooth and your force meter is detecting some of these slight jerks which might be producing momentarily higher loads. Those loads are not uniformly dispersed across the hanger so they dont necessarily break the hanger. Since you are doing slow pulls, this is effectively a semi-static system. Whereas as it pivots and jerks imperceptibly, it introduces some dynamic element to the force curve creating these peaks. I am not married to this explanation.
Only thing I can think of why the difference in results: Is due to the particular size/gauge of carabiner used. But then leaves one to wonder what different thicknesses of carabiner would get the same overall results or proportionately different results due to size? Guessing proportionately different....but then leaves one to suspect hanger ratings in general.. A weird situation though.
When you installed it incorrectly you can see that from this direction of pulling it is more supported on both sides of the bolt and when you installed it correctly, the front of the bolt takes more power on itself. That's what I'm think
Installing it wrong will probably load the aluminium biener of your quickdraw in an unfavorable way (hanger edge digging in), making it break below mbs. Would be interesting to see the results on that.
hello man, how are you? can you help me? we have 304 stainless steel bolts installed in a highline, and we would like to leave the 304L (Pingo) hangers threaded indefinitely. do you think this combination could speed up the corrosion process? would it be better to leave another hanger installed that is only 304 stainless steel? thank you so much
We have have yet to see examples of galvanic corrosion between different grades if SS even 304 and 316. It is probably possible but would require a perfect storm of condition. If you you are seeing any evidence of corrosion SS is probably not the best choice for that environment. For more info read thru that section in the bolting bible, check out the Crag Chemistry website and read the Climbing.com article about mixed metals and Galvanic Corrosion.
I am betting that the wrong installation allows the metal to deform more gradually during a break test, but also would allow the normal deformation from regular use to be more noticeable. People will probably complain if they see a slightly noticeable warping of the metal over time versus no warping at all even though the absolute strength is ultimately greater. Just a thought.
It's curious, probably due to the carabiner... You should try a test with aluminium carabiners. Maybe the good position make the carabiner last longer, the other position may weaken it. So maybe fixe chose the weaker position for the hanger but that combined with a standard carabiner makes the better and stronger combination.
not sure why you're getting more on test 1 and 4 compared with 2 and 3 but I think 2 and 3 look more like how you would expect a hanger to get loaded in a real fall so probably more realistic, or as realistic as a 29kn force load can get! #ThereGoesMyBack
I reckon it's stronger because you're spreading the load better across the metal hanger, pulling from both sides. Whereas when you're setting it up properly it pulls more on just the one side giving less overall strength. Not an engineer just a young hypothesiser.
Maybe the higher ones deformed in such a way that they pulled the carabiner down hard into the concrete and created more friction between the carabiner and the concrete.
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Your channel has grown so much in just the last 5-6 months ive been following!!! So stoked for you man, you deserve every bit of it with all the great content you consistently provide us!! Keep up the good work!
It may just be stronger in a 1 time use scenario like your test. If you install it wrong it may deform easier which may make it stronger THAT time, but after repeated use and deformation, it could become weaker. While the "correct" way does reduce overall strength, but prevents premature deformation making them last longer and stay at the same strength over time
I like how installing it start to bend the metal in a different location. It sets the biner in a different location making the metal tear /break from a stronger point.
Having used concrete screws a lot at work I figured they could be a good option for semi/temporary hanger bolts. I have some cliffs on my property and I wanted to try bolting, these let you to place/remove hangers really fast and allow me to make mistakes without throwing away a glue-in/glue. When I'm happy with a route I'll go back, zip them out and use the same hole with a glue in. (the sandstone can be kinda soft in places). That being said, I hooked some up to my truck in tension and tried to pull them out of the rock (unsuccessfully) before I was totally keen to trust them.
I would say the main risk would be overdrilling and over tightening the bolt into softer rock (I use an impact wrench) because it will just start spinning and pull out of the hole. I am also a little hesitant to use the same hole twice with sandstone...the bolts just go in a bit too easy.
I overdrill all of mine and don't have issues? They're supposed to be overdrilled by a 1/4" or something iirc
I don't know if you could actually shear the head off one from overtightening it with an impact unless you're using small ones (ex/ 7.5mm Heco Multi-Monts) and a big impact.
After having some troubles with 5/16" temporary screws warping, I had a friend recently point out that the smaller screws ( ≤ 5/16" ) can be pretty susceptible to wonkiness of the hole (i.e. non-uniform bore caused by 2-cutter SDS+ bits). He suggested sticking to 4-cutters, although I haven't gotten around to testing it myself. Initially I was thinking that my 18v 1/2"-drive Impact was too rough on them.
**I'm working in limestone, typically good quality with minimal chert'n'shit mixed in...
PS: I too would be sketched out using the same placement twice in sandstone (like... red rocks sandstone... not the quartzite stuff)
@@rachelhasbruises I should have clarified, by overdrilling I meant by diameter, in the softer stuff if you aren't steady or wiggle the sds side to side like they sometimes instruct you to do into concrete you can make the hole a bit too wide. I'm not too worried about shearing the head off, (I use 10mm galvanised screws) but if I hold down the trigger on my impact socket wrench it can just keep twisting that screw until it spins freely in the hole. In the end it comes down to experience with the equipment. I even prefer to use a worn down sds bit because it makes them a little more snug.
i'd like to sound smart in here, but I can't. So I'm gonna go ahead and pin it on bobby's magical hands.
If the legend wants it to be strong, the hanger will oblige.
Concrete screws are great. We use them in rescue with rescure loads, but we need to use 3 bolts for an anchor though.
My guess is that the discrepancy is because in that position, the force is spread more evenly across the two sides of the hanger.
From 9:50 until 10:05 I think the 10+kN from the MBS might be from the carabiner biting into the concrete. Look at how much is being gouged from the surface, I think scraping the concrete is inflating the actual strength of the anchor
That's a good point i hadn't thought of. Wouldn't expect a +10kN result from a little friction though?
That new Fixe hanger... anti-rotation dimples, rounded edges and 316 steel, it looks like the love-child of Petzl Coeur and fixe's original hanger. Could just be the best of both? All I have to add is avoiding mixing 304 (-0.5volts) and 316 (-0.4volts) in marine environments, but away from saltwater it's no big deal.
Im more hyped/impressed about those statements on the concrete screws, sounds sustainable AF, some tests vs normal bolts would be nice
I’d love to see how many times you can reuse a hole with those bolts!
@@GrahmHornsby Ryan, stated early on, that they got 3-4 full pulls per hole. and that is concrete,
@@andrewdavidson542 the convenience of a bolt without the later inconvenience of bolts (difficult to reuse holes)
Yeah, it would be pretty nice since it's a better alternative when having to "move" bolts (which just means pounding one in and placing another) or pound in a faulty wedge bolt (wedge bolts are the standard that we use in our mostly bomber granite). Although right now, it seems pretty cost prohibitive compared to wedge bolts but not compared to Powers 5 piece bolts (probably much cheaper than those). I think it will all depend on application. Personally, when you're putting up anywhere from 30-100 routes per year, cost really matters, especially these days with rising costs.
I know Tom O'Halloran ("pro" climber and Olympian in Australia) has used the same or similar kind of concrete screws for bolting on sandstone in the Blue Mountains. He uses them as temporary bolts, then replaces them using the same hole with homemade stainless U-bolt glue ins. They seem extremely useful for bolting in steep terrain and bolting ground up when you just have to slam in a bunch of bolts to get up the wall, then actually figure out where the real bolts are going to go later. For a while, I think he left one in that he was clipping and potentially falling on with his 5.15 project at Elphinstone in the Blue Mountains.
Cool 😎👍
I wanna learn more a out those concrete screws.
Don't worry, it'll be in the 2021 update of the Bolting Bible (at least in the caving section hahah).
There's been good success with them both underground and above ground.
on the topic of ISO or EN standards....
you need a University student or faculty member with digital library access. most universities have unlimited access to download any ISO, EN and in the UK BS standards from one if the national bodies.
its a breach of copyright to forward those to you but its unlikely to get the person in any trouble.
I had a colleague was getting them for a company I worked for and he was politely asked to stop as my company should be paying for them (staff in the company were on a bord that revised some of the standards )
I think stainless titans are possibly the future of good climbing bolts. Price is probably the only thing really stopping it at this point. Can get good stainless expansion bolts cheaper, at least with eBay and when you are thinking short bolts for granite. Good long stainless expansion bolts for sandstone are still not that cheap, including what you can find on eBay. Titans are easy to install, easy to remove cleanly and quickly without a fancy spinner tool and luck (you can re-use the existing hole), could use the 3/8" hole as-is for a small glue-in or drill out to 1/2" for a larger glue-in or expansion bolt (but why would you go expansion other than price and convenience of not needing to mess with glue?).
My worry is that some ****** might come along and steal everything. Don't underestimate how stupid some people can be
I think installing it wrong allows the hanger to bend more, loading it over the full width of the material instead of almost perpendicular to the plane. Installed right you end up loading the edge, making it easier to break.
I think part of the reason comes down to friction between the biner and the concrete. There's contact in all attempts, but in #1 and #4 you can really see it digging(We don't get to see much of the digging in #1 because of the short time we see it from behind). From basic mechanics we say that the force of friction, R, is a function of a frictional constant and the normal force of the ground (R = mu * N). The digging suggest a high normal force. This frictional part of the force is felt by the dynamometer but not by the hanger. It seems extreme that the friction is 10kN so there's probably more going on, but I think it plays an important role.
The frictional constant between a horseshoe (which is basically a carabiner, right?) and concrete is 0,67. So if the biner gets pushed down into the ground with 15kN of force the math works out perfectly. And you do need a lot of force to crush concrete.
Ryan, on the concrete screws, have you noticed a difference between the 3" and 4" length screws? is there a significant difference in strength and longevity?
3" only have 2.5-ish inch embedment, so it might behoove you to just use 4" if you're in softer rock like limestone and you're pulling in tension (direct pull-out). Based on the manufacturer specs, the shear strength is the same because that's just with respect the screw diameter.
Get yourself an impact driver because you're not going to want to set these big fuckers by hand. Haha
Hey guys nice video but I still like the previous 304 hangers.
About those titens do thew work on hard stone like granite or volcanic. I had used dewalt screws and the rock destroys the threads
Stainless or galv? Stainless is more brittle so that might be the cause... :( obviously we can't use galv outside, so you might be in a pickle.
Are you using a drill bit for four cutting nubbins? I recently had a peer in the caving community point out that he's had much better success with the four-nubbins (cutters???) bits when bolting in screws.
Oh! And if you're using SS deWalt screws, are you using the *Powers* drill bit they tell you to use?
DeWalts SS screws are actually 1/16th larger diameter than nominal for [niche-AF reasons I explain in the 2021 Bolting Bible]. If you're not using the matching drill bit for the SS ones then it might be gnarling-up your threads because standard SDS+ bits are making a slightly tighter hole...!
@@rachelhasbruises hello Rachel, thanks for your reply. I'm using a 3/8 bulldog xtreme full carbide head bit, in concrete, the screws work fine. But in this hard stone of Guanajuato when I try to tighten them they get to a point where they just spin and spin without getting any deeper the screws are galvanized, I tried to use them as temporary anchor but After these unsuccessful attempts I switched to fixe triplex and they work excellent, for those I ordered hawera slp plus full carbide head 12mm bits which are basically the same than bulldog xtreme
I love 316l steel mostly because i am a body piercer
316 is the way to go! (Unless it's really harsh and you need titanium). I'm disappointed when I see things made in 304 (why, why, WHY??)
I think #1 and #4 are stronger because 39kn is more bigger than 29kn.
Genius!
Maybe it is stronger because as it turns more it digs into the rock/concrete more
So I guess maybe its stronger because of a different position of hangar
in what way did you install some of the bolts wrong? . that wasn't stated in the video
The hangers where installed 90 degrees counter clockwise from instructions.
I think since your force meter is sampling peak forces at some frequency, as the hanger pivots, that pivoting is not actually that smooth and your force meter is detecting some of these slight jerks which might be producing momentarily higher loads. Those loads are not uniformly dispersed across the hanger so they dont necessarily break the hanger. Since you are doing slow pulls, this is effectively a semi-static system. Whereas as it pivots and jerks imperceptibly, it introduces some dynamic element to the force curve creating these peaks.
I am not married to this explanation.
Only thing I can think of why the difference in results: Is due to the particular size/gauge of carabiner used. But then leaves one to wonder what different thicknesses of carabiner would get the same overall results or proportionately different results due to size? Guessing proportionately different....but then leaves one to suspect hanger ratings in general.. A weird situation though.
Having the thumbnail to this video pop up right next to Jujimufus video: I never realised that Bobby had a twin!!!
When you installed it incorrectly you can see that from this direction of pulling it is more supported on both sides of the bolt and when you installed it correctly, the front of the bolt takes more power on itself.
That's what I'm think
Have you heard of 'scihub' it's a website that gives free access to scientific articles, and it may work for standards
Installing it wrong will probably load the aluminium biener of your quickdraw in an unfavorable way (hanger edge digging in), making it break below mbs. Would be interesting to see the results on that.
hello man, how are you? can you help me? we have 304 stainless steel bolts installed in a highline, and we would like to leave the 304L (Pingo) hangers threaded indefinitely. do you think this combination could speed up the corrosion process? would it be better to leave another hanger installed that is only 304 stainless steel? thank you so much
We have have yet to see examples of galvanic corrosion between different grades if SS even 304 and 316. It is probably possible but would require a perfect storm of condition. If you you are seeing any evidence of corrosion SS is probably not the best choice for that environment. For more info read thru that section in the bolting bible, check out the Crag Chemistry website and read the Climbing.com article about mixed metals and Galvanic Corrosion.
@@HowNOT2 I just have to thank you, you are too amazing. thank you for sharing your knowledge, these are people who accelerate our evolution process.
Unless welded, those are for all intents and purposes exactly the same.
I am betting that the wrong installation allows the metal to deform more gradually during a break test, but also would allow the normal deformation from regular use to be more noticeable. People will probably complain if they see a slightly noticeable warping of the metal over time versus no warping at all even though the absolute strength is ultimately greater. Just a thought.
Looks like it beanding different at that litel dimpel before breaking?
It's curious, probably due to the carabiner... You should try a test with aluminium carabiners. Maybe the good position make the carabiner last longer, the other position may weaken it.
So maybe fixe chose the weaker position for the hanger but that combined with a standard carabiner makes the better and stronger combination.
Most aluminum carabiners are weaker than these hangers.
How did you install them wrong? What would you say is the best hanger on the market today?
not sure why you're getting more on test 1 and 4 compared with 2 and 3 but I think 2 and 3 look more like how you would expect a hanger to get loaded in a real fall so probably more realistic, or as realistic as a 29kn force load can get! #ThereGoesMyBack
fixeclimbing 👌
I liiiike.
Wait, why did the two hangers break at 39kn? I didn't fully grasp the whole "clip/ Stahl" thoughts.
Can you and Bobby make a hand drilling video please?
We have a few videos that cover hand drilling.
m.ruclips.net/video/0N5bfEVhs7o/видео.html
m.ruclips.net/video/AYXe71o89_g/видео.html
I reckon it's stronger because you're spreading the load better across the metal hanger, pulling from both sides. Whereas when you're setting it up properly it pulls more on just the one side giving less overall strength. Not an engineer just a young hypothesiser.
Shoveling in sandals, nice work Bobby. :) Concrete screws are nice for a temporary rap anchor on a top down project; take them with you when done.
Concave, convex, switcheroo
FYI 316l is just.. a4.. yeh..
Maybe the higher ones deformed in such a way that they pulled the carabiner down hard into the concrete and created more friction between the carabiner and the concrete.
Bobby is not much of a digger lol