The Most Unusual VTOL Vehicles of the Last 100 Years

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  • Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024

Комментарии • 247

  • @seandawson5899
    @seandawson5899 2 года назад +45

    5:30 I am dying that Simon said a plane was "dummy Thiccc". My first great laugh of the year!

    • @budbud13411
      @budbud13411 Год назад

      Best part of the video - Some of Simon’s commentary is hilarious!

  • @GraemeLeRoux
    @GraemeLeRoux 2 года назад +68

    Ahhh the 1950s. The golden age of bonkers military design and a gold mine for RUclipsrs. Thanks Simon for another excellent video.

    • @earlyriser8998
      @earlyriser8998 2 года назад +5

      and an age of discovery about flight that we all benefit from now

    • @williamchamberlain2263
      @williamchamberlain2263 2 года назад +3

      1920s was pretty spectacular for massive multi-winged aircraft, but the '50s were replete with aircraft with powerful engines and problematic control characteristics.

  • @Fortunes.Fool.
    @Fortunes.Fool. 2 года назад +61

    Can we take a moment to appreciate the testicular fortitude of the men who actually strapped into things like the Pogo to fly it? I wouldn't get within a ZIP code of that thing.

    • @Icini
      @Icini 2 года назад

      Lol

    • @mpetersen6
      @mpetersen6 2 года назад +1

      As the man moved about the surface of the Earth is introduced a wobble in the Earth's rotation.

    • @phantomechelon3628
      @phantomechelon3628 Год назад

      Thats why they originally recruited astronauts from the ranks of test pilots.

    • @jackryan4313
      @jackryan4313 Год назад

      Only reason they all failed was because the payload wasn't rated for the weight of the pilots balls

  • @ignitionfrn2223
    @ignitionfrn2223 2 года назад +20

    1:05 - Chapter 1 - Lockheed XFV convair XFY
    4:00 - Chapter 2 - Snecma coleoptere
    7:15 - Chapter 3 - VJ 101
    11:00 - Chapter 4 - The flying jeep
    14:20 - Chapter 5 - Avrocar
    17:50 - Chapter 6 - The skies as they are

  • @michaelpipkin9942
    @michaelpipkin9942 2 года назад +38

    Can you do the history of The Thunderbirds?
    It's a tragic, wonderful story of military grade aircraft that wondered millions.

    • @OGTylerP
      @OGTylerP 2 года назад +10

      Thunderbirds Are Go

    • @Sideprojects
      @Sideprojects  2 года назад +9

      Sure! Suggesting it to the writers :)

  • @gabbyn978
    @gabbyn978 2 года назад +13

    fyi: the MAN acronym means Maschinenfabrik (machine factory in) Augsburg-Nürnberg (Nuremberg), and their usual staple was the construction of trucks and buses

    • @Ozuhananas
      @Ozuhananas 2 года назад +1

      It's still their usual staple I think, I see plenty of MAN trucks and buses on the road around where I live

  • @liamwinter4512
    @liamwinter4512 2 года назад +15

    I remember seeing the airjeep on extreme machines back when TLC stood for "The Learning Channel".

  • @SimonTekConley
    @SimonTekConley 2 года назад +13

    Hot air balloons have nailed the vertical take off part.

    • @mho...
      @mho... 2 года назад

      just having a tough time going supersonic 😏

    • @craigstoner2632
      @craigstoner2632 Год назад

      Id love to see a modern jet that pops a balloon and a bunsen burner out the canopy to take off and land 🤣

  • @johnfisher3380
    @johnfisher3380 2 года назад +6

    “A vicious cycle of wobbles.” Perhaps the most terrifying sentence an engineer can hear.

  • @brett4264
    @brett4264 2 года назад +19

    Lol, "The insurance rates rise to literal DEATH if you mess up." Good one!

    • @Icini
      @Icini 2 года назад

      Lol

  • @jacoboconnell7518
    @jacoboconnell7518 2 года назад +3

    Hearing Simon say the words "dummy thicc" made me literally spit my drink out. starting off the new year right!

  • @shadowstar6257
    @shadowstar6257 2 года назад +18

    Those flying jeep concepts remind me of the modern flying car /rideable drones of today's designs. The more things change the more they remain the same.

    • @mattfleming86
      @mattfleming86 2 года назад +1

      And I firmly believe that a similar product will be of military worth in short order, especially if they can be produced such that many of them can be folden/packed into a standard shipping container and have decent load bearing capacity and/or range. Electric quadrotors would also have quite a low heat signature- helping survivability.

    • @RCAvhstape
      @RCAvhstape 2 года назад

      They are as worthless as flying cars. More so, since an actual Jeep or a conventional helicopter can actually carry a decent payload, while these things are doing all they can to just not kill you.

    • @electi0neering
      @electi0neering 2 года назад

      @@mattfleming86 but now there’s no need for a pilot so it’s just a drone

    • @eliahabib5111
      @eliahabib5111 2 года назад

      This was the period when sf was describing a future where flying car would be used instead of regular cars. So a flying jeep isn't so strange.
      Never mind that the only reason given to needing flying car is avoiding trafic. There are very few cases where the reason is not building a road infrostructure. I never found a case where the reason for flying cars is: going in a strait line not following road, or higher speed.
      This look like 3D film that don't seems to have any reason to exists outside of "a more immersive experience". And that is still going today.

    • @craigstoner2632
      @craigstoner2632 Год назад

      Life is a wheel, not a road.

  • @wormyboot
    @wormyboot 2 года назад +2

    That last shot of the flying Jeep is my favorite. I love how they've got a .50 cal up there. It's not, like, manned or anything. It's just up there, on a tripod, like an afterthought.

  • @Ass_of_Amalek
    @Ass_of_Amalek 2 года назад +9

    that german tiltjet fighter and also the german tiltjet bomber only mentioned tangentially here were clearly the best ones.

    • @mpetersen6
      @mpetersen6 2 года назад

      The Dornier was designed as a transport.

  • @SpacePatrollerLaser
    @SpacePatrollerLaser 2 года назад +5

    You have no idea of how many 11 year old boys drooled over the models of the XFV-1 and 2 in 195
    What happened to the Ryan X-55
    We never did get the VTO interceptor
    Chance-Vought had something like that called the "flying flapjack" that had two propeller engines in about 1945 but the jet engine kind of scratched that one

    • @richardvernon317
      @richardvernon317 2 года назад

      Yep loads of VTOL designs missing from this.
      Ryan X-13
      Bell X-14
      Hiller X-18
      Curtiss-Wright X-19
      Bell X-22
      Lockheed XV-4 Hummingbird
      Ryan XV-5
      Rockwell XVF-12
      Shorts SC-1
      Canadair CL-84
      Dassault Mirage IIIV
      Ling-Temco-Vought (LTV) XC-142

  • @iteerrex8166
    @iteerrex8166 2 года назад +4

    Who knew, the quadcopter was invented in ‘58. Happy new year Simon, everybody.

  • @manilove2pwn
    @manilove2pwn 2 года назад +3

    That family guy cut was done perfect well done editors

  • @01oo011
    @01oo011 2 года назад +3

    5:30 never thought I’d hear Simon say that

  • @MacktasticSlick_
    @MacktasticSlick_ 2 года назад +7

    My grandpa had a cool color picture of the Convair XFV always on the wall when I was a kid I never knew much about it but I always loved looking at it, what an unlocked memory that was. I forgot about that since the 90s holy shit. I wonder where all that stuff went when he died, that would have been cool to keep.

  • @markthetrois420
    @markthetrois420 2 года назад +3

    Bro I'd do some ILLEGALLY COOL shit to have a flying jeep for me and the homie to bop around in

    • @archstanton6102
      @archstanton6102 2 года назад +1

      The Smithsonian currently has a flying taxi on display in Futures exhibit. Not for roads just VTOL

    • @markthetrois420
      @markthetrois420 2 года назад

      @@archstanton6102 but can I have it, for shennanigans and beer runs?

    • @archstanton6102
      @archstanton6102 2 года назад +1

      @@markthetrois420 Didn't see a cost but yes

  • @alexbarnett8541
    @alexbarnett8541 2 года назад +7

    I love how they added the Bazooka to the prototype jeep. Wishful thinking.

  • @patrickhasachannel
    @patrickhasachannel 2 года назад +6

    I don't want to distract from the topic entirely, but the V-22 Osprey has its fair share of critics and for good reason. for such a "new" aircraft it has a notable incident record

    • @liamwinter4512
      @liamwinter4512 2 года назад +3

      My buddy flys them. I brought up the incident record and he stated that they have to read aloud all the names of the personnel that died during it's polishing phase.

    • @RCAvhstape
      @RCAvhstape 2 года назад

      It's new tech. Wait until it's been in service for a few decades and see how it pans out. Compare with the first jets, which were all deathtraps too.

  • @dreamCatV6
    @dreamCatV6 2 года назад +2

    Simon with the BF2042 references....lmao. My year is off to a good start

  • @chesspiece81
    @chesspiece81 2 года назад +4

    Simon never reads comments but I've been watching since the pre beard days and have enjoyed the content. Happy new year

  • @UncleManuel
    @UncleManuel 2 года назад +1

    Pffffffffhahahaha, that Flying Jeep meme was ON POINT! 😁😁😁

  • @chrisshorten4406
    @chrisshorten4406 2 года назад +14

    The Treibflugel designed by the NAZIs, while never put into service, was also a very strange VTOL aircraft.

    • @mandernachluca3774
      @mandernachluca3774 2 года назад +1

      Not only that, they also developed a conceptual twin rotor vtol recon aircraft, equal in design to the Ospray. It was build and tested after the war, thought only as a Stol vehicle, as the rotors were not tilted the full 90°.

  • @UncleManuel
    @UncleManuel 2 года назад +5

    Some VTOL aircraft didn't need engines to take off - they were so ugly that Earth repelled them. 🤪😁

  • @rooseveltbrentwood9654
    @rooseveltbrentwood9654 2 года назад +2

    1:09 The first time i’ve seen Simon sit (at least with his legs in frame).

  • @ljphoenix4341
    @ljphoenix4341 2 года назад

    5:31 I never thought I'd hear those words be spoken by Simon, in that order. To the writer of this video, THANKYOU.

  • @johnhill6673
    @johnhill6673 2 года назад +3

    The AVRO car couldn't really fly, but it sure hovered well. Oh, wait, the first hovercraft, but no one at that time realized what they had.

  • @LtNduati
    @LtNduati 2 года назад +1

    The first Lockheed XFY look like someone went back in time to describe a helicopter but did a terrible job and left for the future a bit too early 😂

  • @lemmonsinmyeyes
    @lemmonsinmyeyes 2 года назад +1

    it would be cool to see more yak 131, it was 'mass produced' in a sovet flavored morgan kind of way, but it paved the way for the 'modern' style vtol now

  • @franks471
    @franks471 2 года назад +1

    Fun Fact: the designer of the vz-6 also designed the tune-o-matic for Gibson.

  • @hampuskall3749
    @hampuskall3749 2 года назад +1

    Not sure if it would be a megaproject or sideproject, but i would love a video of the Swedish Archer system, or mabye the Saab 37 Viggen, like when they locked on to a Blackbird

  • @mrsDeborah
    @mrsDeborah 2 года назад +4

    Great video. you've remind me of what someone once said💖 "The mind is the man, the poor is in it and the rich is it too". This sentence is the secret of most successful investors. I once attended similar and ever since then i been waxing strong financially, and i most tell you the truth..

    • @semaj_5022
      @semaj_5022 2 года назад

      What the fuck is all of this nonsense

  • @Sutterjack
    @Sutterjack 2 года назад +2

    I'm actually surprised 4-rotor large-sized drones haven't been more fully developed both commercially and militarily. We've learned so much from personal drone aircraft and the technology and electronics are so sophisticated now that literally a child can fly one. Far more stable than a helicopter-

    • @absalomdraconis
      @absalomdraconis 2 года назад +1

      Well, the deal is that larger rotors are usually more efficient, and quad rotors only seem to be _as_ stable as they do because of computer control, which is an advantage that you can apply to conventional helicopters too...

    • @RCAvhstape
      @RCAvhstape 2 года назад

      If one rotor fails, you die. I'd rather fly on a Huey, thank you.

  • @DiracComb.7585
    @DiracComb.7585 2 года назад +1

    5:30 definitely had to take a double take there

  • @thejudgmentalcat
    @thejudgmentalcat 2 года назад +1

    "DeHavilland Vampire" can't believe that name went past first drafts of its design

  • @itzmistah_1874
    @itzmistah_1874 2 года назад +1

    "The first thing that's probably gonna catch your eye about this plane is that it is Dummy Thicc."
    5:27 ~ Simon
    January,2022

  • @rockstarJDP
    @rockstarJDP 2 года назад

    "A vicious cycle of wobble" is how I'm going to describe being drunk from now on.

  • @Jay-wo9vk
    @Jay-wo9vk 2 года назад +1

    Simon coming in hard with the shade at BF2042 >_< lol

  • @kschepelern
    @kschepelern 2 года назад +1

    HEY beard blaze!!
    happy new years and thanks for all of the things upload

  • @Derekzparty
    @Derekzparty 2 года назад +1

    Watched this channel for years, but I've never seen Simon whistle.
    Can Simon whistle?

  • @ThisAintMyGithub
    @ThisAintMyGithub 2 года назад

    The Battlefield jokes had me dying, they were so accurate

  • @somehaloguy9372
    @somehaloguy9372 2 месяца назад

    "Radio for VTOL. Heavy lift gear. We're not leaving him here"

  • @JerryListener
    @JerryListener 2 года назад

    This was an extremely informative video - Cheers!
    The avrocar.. soaring at heights of your waist!
    As hard as it is to keep a drone flying your first time - imagine having to SIT in it!

  • @The-three-eyed-Prophet
    @The-three-eyed-Prophet Год назад +1

    you can see the evolution of simons beard over the years it seems like it gets longer and longer it probably will reach the floor in 10 years lol #BeardGang #Respect

  • @mikejohnson5900
    @mikejohnson5900 2 года назад

    The DO-31 was fantastically engineered and well executed. At a time when computers were still relatively basic, it was reportedly easy to fly without requiring them, and without bad habits. It was also a beautiful aircraft.

  • @mikearmstrong8483
    @mikearmstrong8483 2 года назад

    The Avrocar.
    Projected performance: mach 3 at 100,000 ft.
    Actual performance: never exceeded 30 mph and could not get above 4 ft off the ground at best.
    That guy had a lot of nerve calling himself an engineer.

  • @binaway
    @binaway 2 года назад +1

    With modern computer control a tail sitter would now be possible. Whether practical is another story.
    The VJ101's similar looks to the Starfighter is no coincidence. With the Starfighter already in W-German production the VJ101 is basically a 6 engine VTOL version of this single engine aircraft.

  • @thefretfiend
    @thefretfiend 2 года назад +2

    No mention of the Hiller X18?

  • @jeffrobourn
    @jeffrobourn 2 года назад +1

    Happy new year man. Always enjoy your content.

  • @MrChasejones24
    @MrChasejones24 2 года назад

    Omg his comments on battlefield 2042 had me reeling 🤣🤣🤣

  • @ljphoenix4341
    @ljphoenix4341 2 года назад

    Nick Suarez, you are a legend for this script!

  • @JJadx
    @JJadx 2 года назад +1

    there are a lot of flying cars in the works, the key is to make them remote or computer controlled.

  • @shugadaddy4841
    @shugadaddy4841 2 года назад

    The writers dig at Simon @ 13:40 was great 😆

  • @hernerweisenberg7052
    @hernerweisenberg7052 2 года назад

    2:46 "Two sets of three propellers" - so it has 6 propellers? xD
    More like two 3-bladed propellers :P

  • @stianberg5645
    @stianberg5645 2 года назад +1

    they had vtol propeller planes doing mach 1!? I thought there was only one prop plane able to do that ever

  • @rulingmoss5599
    @rulingmoss5599 2 года назад +12

    It makes me sad we dont see wacky and downright cool experimental vehicles like this, although it probably makes the test pilots happier lol

    • @mirzaahmed6589
      @mirzaahmed6589 2 года назад +1

      They still exist, they are classified.

    • @seandawson5899
      @seandawson5899 2 года назад +1

      @@mirzaahmed6589 yeah in 30 years we will be talking about how they never have invisible helicopters anymore or something. Everything we know is just what everyone else has now.

    • @nicmainville9954
      @nicmainville9954 2 года назад +3

      We’ve figured out the physics already and have proper computerized modeling programs to test new aero designs without having to build prototypes until the design is near production ready.

    • @shakiMiki
      @shakiMiki 2 года назад +2

      You want to see designs that don't work?

    • @brucebaxter6923
      @brucebaxter6923 2 года назад +1

      Black fly.
      Start there and then go into the various battery powered air taxis

  • @var1ares
    @var1ares 2 года назад +1

    Does anyone know if Simon has done a video on the tank that busts land mines? It’s got massive chains that whip the ground in front of it and they detonate mines or breaks them with the force and looks super weird

  • @anthonyhayes3991
    @anthonyhayes3991 2 года назад +2

    I thought helicopters may be involved in this video. Maybe a seperate video for their history

  • @rjspires
    @rjspires 2 года назад

    11:32 Even Simon giving the burn to Battlefield 2042.

  • @EAcapuccino
    @EAcapuccino 2 года назад +1

    Very strange but interesting machines 😂🛩️
    That third 1 looked like a manned Nuclear Bomb, whilst that EWR VJ101 looked like a Thunderbirds plane!
    Good 1 on that insurance joke! LOL 🤣🤣

  • @wills2140
    @wills2140 2 года назад

    the Curtiss-Wright VZ-7 looks a lot like scaled up version of several different modern drones ... I wonder if Simon will talk about things like the drones we can buy.

  • @Sassquatch0
    @Sassquatch0 2 года назад

    "Imagine if everyone had one of these." ...see Colin Furze's personal hover bike. ;)

  • @52Megaton
    @52Megaton 2 года назад

    Flying jeeps, flying tanks but no flying bicycles...?
    Darn it, they make this too hard.

  • @bobthompson4319
    @bobthompson4319 2 года назад

    The tail sitters are great for take off but terrible to land when you have no way to see behind you and no idea what your altitude is.

  • @charlesseymour1482
    @charlesseymour1482 2 года назад +1

    Someone should do a video on rc aircraft. Radio control models speed record held by a glider.

  • @883mustang
    @883mustang 2 года назад

    Loved the family guy cutaway 😂

  • @TheEvilCommenter
    @TheEvilCommenter 2 года назад +4

    Good video 👍

  • @bartjohnson8139
    @bartjohnson8139 2 года назад +1

    🎉🍾Happy New Year Big Brain Boy! 💫🥂

  • @nigozeroichi2501
    @nigozeroichi2501 2 года назад

    The flying geep, probably the first manned quadcopter?

  • @jtjames79
    @jtjames79 2 года назад +2

    Tail sitters could definitely make a comeback. If Falcon 9 can hoverslam, then it's just an autopilot problem.

    • @brucebaxter6923
      @brucebaxter6923 2 года назад +1

      Yes.
      But why put pilots in?

    • @jtjames79
      @jtjames79 2 года назад +4

      @@brucebaxter6923 to feed the dog.

    • @brucebaxter6923
      @brucebaxter6923 2 года назад +2

      @@jtjames79
      Win

    • @brucebaxter6923
      @brucebaxter6923 2 года назад +1

      @Cancer McAids and there we have the reason 2/3 of accidents are pilot related

  • @lesliereissner4711
    @lesliereissner4711 2 года назад

    The Avrocar was not scrapped but can be found in all its glory (ha ha!) at the USAF Museum in Dayton, Ohio. A second protototype apparently exists at another museum.

  • @samuelmeasa9283
    @samuelmeasa9283 2 года назад +5

    Have to wonder if someone like Elon Musk took up the challenge today to rework an Avro Car or Curtiss-Wright into mass production vehicles. I know I've seen a few images of "Flying Mtorcycles" that look like a VZ-7/modern drone crossed with a Star Wars speeder bike.

    • @absalomdraconis
      @absalomdraconis 2 года назад

      I've seen videos of at least one, but I honestly doubt that they'll ever be a great design. Honestly, for a "Flying Jeep", I'd be looking at either a hovercraft with computer controls (whether conventional skirt design, or WIG craft), or an aircraft with a wing designed after the "flying pancake" mounted to a vertical pylon like some weird relative of a Catalina (and for much the same clearance reasons).

    • @BatCaveOz
      @BatCaveOz 2 года назад +1

      Except that Elon Musk is a conman (allegedly).
      He promised 1 million robotaxis by 2020... where are my robotaxis?

  • @garychurch9740
    @garychurch9740 2 года назад

    I really have always liked the coleoptere. Sooooo cool looking.

  • @TheMattc999
    @TheMattc999 2 года назад

    @ 11:25 oh sh#t, that's the world's first quad-copter/food processor/sausage grinder- I _really_ wouldn't want to be the guy in that seat when that thing goes down...

  • @jaydeister9305
    @jaydeister9305 2 года назад

    Simon,
    Greetings! It's still worth reviewing the vtol fighter aircraft (manufacturers/types):
    MIG
    YAK-36/38/41
    Hawker(?) Harrier
    the loser to the F-35 competition.
    Thank you!
    Jay Deister

  • @hikyuu1
    @hikyuu1 2 года назад

    Have you thought of videos on the JRM Martin Mars flying boat or the AH-56 Cheyenne?? The Mars was produced in 1945 and still used today and the Cheyenne was a design for the the AAFSS program where both it and S-67 Blackhawk were too ahead of their time. BTW love the videos

  • @gordonwallin2368
    @gordonwallin2368 2 года назад

    Yay Canada; flying saucers, X-files, Avro Arrow, wo hoo! Cheers from Vancouver.

  • @AcornElectron
    @AcornElectron 2 года назад +1

    Harrier FTW. Always!

  • @ramons8908
    @ramons8908 2 года назад

    -flying saucer- nope, what the canuck designed was a skirtless hovercraft. There's a reason why a hovercraft has a skirt, something to do with stability.

  • @Pavlos_Charalambous
    @Pavlos_Charalambous 2 года назад

    09:14 now I know where the inspiration for dasa-kamov havoc from g police came from

  • @mistywolf312
    @mistywolf312 2 года назад

    Has any aircraft designer asked any pilots what they prefer about fly by wire because the whole go back and start all over again when it comes to experimental aircraft seems to repeat itself no matter what decade its being designed in.

  • @mpetersen6
    @mpetersen6 2 года назад

    The big problem with VTOL is they suck fuel like nothing short of a rocket engine. Tail sitters might be practical today with digital flight controls.
    Another variation on VTOL is the tilt wing. The US came close to putting the XC-142 into production.

  • @SpaceMonkeyBoi
    @SpaceMonkeyBoi 2 года назад +1

    Tail sitting aircraft can return as drones now

  • @TheJediCaptain
    @TheJediCaptain 2 года назад +1

    Would the development and implementation of the 'fly-by-wire' system make for a decent video?

  • @robertmacpherson9044
    @robertmacpherson9044 2 года назад

    Thank you for making an effort to pronounce words and names in foreign languages! I was surprised to hear Piasecki pronounced that way, but then went back and looked at the spelling. If it's Polish, that's just about right. Kudos!

    • @RCAvhstape
      @RCAvhstape 2 года назад

      I went to school in the US with a classmate of Polish decent whose name was Piasecki and he pronounced his name the anglicized way: PIE-ah-SEK-ee

  • @codyandrews8858
    @codyandrews8858 2 года назад

    I'm really waiting on the black fly vtol, it's design is close to that of a drone, big enough for a single human to fly

  • @simonrancourt7834
    @simonrancourt7834 2 года назад +1

    You forgot the Canadair CL-84

  • @weatherman667
    @weatherman667 2 года назад +1

    The Avrocar did lead to modern hovercraft.

  • @chadcuckproducer1037
    @chadcuckproducer1037 2 года назад

    Bj101 sounds like a class that should be combined with home economics.

  • @patpopov
    @patpopov 2 года назад

    No Flying Bedstead? What a swizz!

  • @MrHeems
    @MrHeems 2 года назад

    Is that a keyboard under Simon's shirt, or is he just happy to see us watching?
    Seriously though, what the heck is on his lap?

  • @vomder
    @vomder 2 года назад

    How about a video on Project Habakkuk from World War II?

  • @mho...
    @mho... 2 года назад

    Cant Wait for the Day, when we adopt something like GDI's Orca! .... we can dream, can we?!

  • @thomasheyart7033
    @thomasheyart7033 2 года назад

    The only thing the AvroCar was missing was a rubber skirt. It's seen as the grandfather of the hovercraft

  • @backcountry164
    @backcountry164 2 года назад +1

    The R is not silent at the end of Dornier...

  • @earlyriser8998
    @earlyriser8998 2 года назад

    a nice version of forgotten weapons - vtol

  • @J3scribe
    @J3scribe 2 года назад

    Some of these projects are worth revisiting, if only because of "what if?"