Great show. Many thanks, Brendan, Gary, Rachael and Simon. The bi-regeneration has provided me with the perfect jumping off point. We didn't see one Doctor change into another. The baton has failed to be passed. And so when I see Ncuti behaving in so many ways that the Doctor wouldn't, he fails to convince me that he is the Doctor. Not unlike the metacrisis Doctor, he's not the Doctor, he's a peculiar offshoot from the Doctor, travelling the universe, not in the same TARDIS that we first saw in that junkyard in 1963, but in a copy of that TARDIS - at best, a magic clone of that TARDIS. This feels more and more like a spin-off show that carries the same name, and carries so very little of the same quality. They even called it Season One to make the distinction from what had gone before. For me, this is RTD'S legacy.
Well said, Crimpleen. I was trying to focusing on the positive at first in the stream, but overall it's impossible to avoid the conclusion that RTD2 has irreversibly sullied any legacy RTD had
the bigeneration is the most radical, controversial aspect of the RTD impact on Dr Who if my analytics are telling me anything. The spike when we ever mention bigeneration is extremely dramatic. Seriously!
Spot on Crimpleen! It’s a different Show. RTD has aimed it at a new audience that failed to materialise. It’s not Classic or Nu Who. It’s entirely it’s own distinct thing. Bad but distinct.
The bi generation looks like in The Nutty Professor 2 scene when Buddy Love pops away from Sherman Klump, then the red flag is when Ncuti describes The Doctor as shapeshifting alien that anyone can play The Doctor, the whole 15th Doctor seems off and way off character just the the 13th Doctor was, it doesn't help the actor taking over from the other.
The sad thing is that RTD2 is affecting my view of RTD1. I struggled but went along with the falling in love, the messy finales with their crappy solutions, and when Matt Smith appeared under Moffat breathed a sigh of relief but rewatching The Stolen Earth/Journey's End for the channel, I found it harder to take because 'the seeds of doom' were sown then. Hugh
Great show, Brendan. It is difficult to retain an impartial view in the chat, given the restrictions, which is nobody's fault. But give us something to be positive about and we'll be positive. But if it's crap, then crap it shall be be called. The point is, we want to be positive!
Any suggestions for shows and I will go to it - our dr who chat show with the whoppers will be all about our love of dr who but with lots of cheek and ridicule so that might work
@@noblerees1 Lol, that wasn't aimed at you, by the way, but more at the show itself in its current iteration. Have a good holiday, and would love to appear on the show at some point in the future, if I can get the tech sorted. Might need a few suggestions there...
Well my time was Pertwee/Tom and I felt it was going off the boil mid Davison (a possibly biased perspective but I'll stand firm that I was lucky to be prime age during the show's zenith). The film was a misfire but I enjoyed the revival, warts and all. I'd agree to extend to include Capaldi though, because despite the writing increasingly powered by fumes he was just so good in the role. And the support were pretty good too. I still think that when Moffat told Chibnall he was the only one who could take it on it was a hospital pass that the latter took as a compliment. And by way of a "rescue" we've got Celebrity Strictly Come Doctoring on Ice...
I knew some of his work before Doctor Who, and he did a really good job overseeing the return of Doctor Who. Even if some of his individual scripts weren't all brilliant, he had a concept of what the show should be and employed lots of great writers. This time round its almost all RTD and he seems to have lost his touch.
Many thanks, Brendan and all for a typically comprehensive and in depth discussion. I never wanted Davies to return as showrunner. One unhinged public rant after another readily convinced me that he had sublimated his genuine loss and grief into an unwholesome crusade to elevate certain societal minorities at the expense of all others. Sadly, I fear that Davies' and Doctor Who's legacies are destined to be inextricably linked because, where Chibnall was satisfied with reducing the show to the status of laughing stock, Davies has far loftier ambitions. Only when that first child transitions, proudly and gratefully claiming it to be on the back of watching the show, will RTD2's debauched mission be complete. After which, of course, will follow the change of heart as the physical and chemical abuse to which they have subjected themselves makes itself apparent. Then gratitude will become blame and a show that has long been rightly hailed as a wholesome, educative force for good will, seemingly overnight, be associated with child indoctrination and forever deemed unsuitable for children. It will never recover and not a day will go by without my asking myself if the man who so lovingly restored it to global renown could really be responsible for so stigmatising it. Thanks again and all the best for now. Paul
Fantastic comment as usual, Paul. Of course, after any given individual has served their purpose in "justifying" RTD's insanity, they will be conveniently forgotten, *especially* when they have a change of heart later. They're no longer useful to The Message at that point.
@@noblerees1 it dates the show and now those references are not current. He also obsesses over soaps, reality shows and chat shows (and now Bridgerton and Drag Race). They are not even literary/dramatic pop culture references.
I do think modern writers like RTD should be better educated about the subjects they pronounce on. More job, less gob please. 1. "Celestial" was an English rendition of the honorific title of the Qing Emperors (Son of Heaven), which was also used at a slightly lower level of formality to address their representatives for trade purposes. It wasn't a pejorative, although undoubtedly used incorrectly by some Westerners both personally and in popular entertainment. An inappropriate compliment at worst. 2. The great figures of Egyptology/archaeology were all gifted amateurs - the French classicist Champollion, the English artist Carter and the German modern polyglot Schliemann. While their expeditions were funded by powerful/wealthy patrons (less so in Schliemann's case with Troy) and prestigious artifacts were expatriated, the motivation was to discover, preserve, study and understand evidence of ancient civilisations, regarded as the wellspring of us all. You have to appreciate that the Egyptians (and other occupying factions) had thoroughly and destructively raided their own ancient sites over millennia to the point where they knew very little about their own history. Cleopatra didn't understand cuneiform or hieroglyphs. Tutenkhamun was actually a very minor pharaoh but the significance of Carter's find was that it hadn't been erm "looted". Nobody is asserting that imperialism/colonialism was a saintly pursuit, far from it. But to simply dismiss these matters as "racism" and "cultural appropriation" is crass, ignorant and intellectually lazy. PS Imo the Third Doctor's relationship with Jo was avuncular/parental. His touching and tasteful parting with her was the act of a mentor sadly and selflessly accepting his protege flying the nest. I too have been a teacher and the goal is to help them outgrow you. It's always a bit bittersweet. Hands down the best companion departure of the lot.
@@noblerees1 Glad it was interesting Smoggie. I think you'd further agree that those in a position of influence - say, teachers and producers of popular entertainment, perhaps even fictional Doctors - have a responsibility to be reasonably solid on their own homework. Or at very least introduce subjects without blase steering and always with the encouragement to discover more. O tempora, o Davies...
@@Pooter-it4ygI agree on all points - and I’ve been a teacher too. Right from RTD’s second episode I felt that he had contempt for science and storytelling.
RTD thinks he's an intellectual, yet, as many of the points you've outlined amply illustrate, he needs to educate himself on so much. He is too fond of the anecdotal "notes in the margin" approach to how the programme is made and actively enjoys constructing thin arguments to explain his reasoning. He is prone to very lazy comments and assumes his every waking thought is of interest, when the fans would rather he just put in more graft. His love of his own material and pathetic "jokes" like mavity are borderline disturbing. Then again, JN-T genuinely loved The Twin Dilemma and defended it to the hilt. I guess being too close to the franchise for long enough can manifest in a kind of low-level insanity.
I was six years old when I watched Brain of Morbius. Does RTD think it would have appealed to me more if the Doctor had reignited thr Sisterhood of Karn's sacred flame by farting on it?
Based on the quote you mentioned, he doesn’t understand fantasy either. Even fantasy has rules. Whether it's Lord of the Rings, the Discworld, or Harry Potter, or whatever, there are rules. You have to have rules in drama. If there are no rules, then how can you create tension. If you're locked in a dungeon, but you can draw a door on the wall and escape like in a cartoon, there are no stakes.
Steven Moffat's a genuine fan. Even when he screwed up, it came from a place of real love for Doctor Who. He would also correct a mistake, whether it was real or just perceived. For example, the New Paradigm Daleks could have worked if fans had taken time to get used to them but the backlash was so vicious that Moffat pushed them into the background. And he did it WITHOUT calling the fanbase toxic because he's actually one of us and was living the dream. Retarded Trash Dildo only ever saw Doctor Who as a platform for his degenerate politics. Christopher Ecclestone was calling out his bullshit 2 decades ago.
They have made the Doctor 'Joe Average' in the street. He never was that, he never should be. He's an outsider, that was the fundamental characteristic of the man. He was an outsider who fit into situations on his own terms. That's why the first four actors, were the Doctor, and subsequent encumberments have been actors playing a character. Some better than others.
Bit late to comment, but never mind. The mystery of who the Doctor is should not be a mystery to the Doctor - the Timeless Child storyline is the worst thing to have been done to the show. The Chibnall era in general has damaged the show for many fans - it's at a point where i don't care what RTD is doing to the show, it's already broken.
1:00:00 Do you remember when being opppsed to homophobia meant divorcing homosexuality from its cultural signifiers like camp or hobbies atypical of ones sex, rather than reinforcing them? Remember that? I am sure I remember that.
RTD new era of Who has killed my interest in modern Dr Who now. I still can't believe quite how badly it's turned out.
You and me both. My disappointment has grown into disdain and then some anger
@noblerees1 KWYM I've lost all Internet in modern Who now, I'm not sure anything could get me back now until RTD is gone tbh
@@paulbowler5345 Well, if you've lost all internet then you won't be able to watch it on I Player. 😄
Great show. Many thanks, Brendan, Gary, Rachael and Simon.
The bi-regeneration has provided me with the perfect jumping off point. We didn't see one Doctor change into another. The baton has failed to be passed. And so when I see Ncuti behaving in so many ways that the Doctor wouldn't, he fails to convince me that he is the Doctor. Not unlike the metacrisis Doctor, he's not the Doctor, he's a peculiar offshoot from the Doctor, travelling the universe, not in the same TARDIS that we first saw in that junkyard in 1963, but in a copy of that TARDIS - at best, a magic clone of that TARDIS.
This feels more and more like a spin-off show that carries the same name, and carries so very little of the same quality. They even called it Season One to make the distinction from what had gone before. For me, this is RTD'S legacy.
Well said, Crimpleen. I was trying to focusing on the positive at first in the stream, but overall it's impossible to avoid the conclusion that RTD2 has irreversibly sullied any legacy RTD had
@@gar535 you tried hard. But what can you do when i keep throwing different quotes and contentious topics at you lol
the bigeneration is the most radical, controversial aspect of the RTD impact on Dr Who if my analytics are telling me anything. The spike when we ever mention bigeneration is extremely dramatic. Seriously!
Spot on Crimpleen! It’s a different Show. RTD has aimed it at a new audience that failed to materialise. It’s not Classic or Nu Who. It’s entirely it’s own distinct thing. Bad but distinct.
The bi generation looks like in The Nutty Professor 2 scene when Buddy Love pops away from Sherman Klump, then the red flag is when Ncuti describes The Doctor as shapeshifting alien that anyone can play The Doctor, the whole 15th Doctor seems off and way off character just the the 13th Doctor was, it doesn't help the actor taking over from the other.
The sad thing is that RTD2 is affecting my view of RTD1. I struggled but went along with the falling in love, the messy finales with their crappy solutions, and when Matt Smith appeared under Moffat breathed a sigh of relief but rewatching The Stolen Earth/Journey's End for the channel, I found it harder to take because 'the seeds of doom' were sown then.
Hugh
Yes journeys end is as bad as stolen earth was good
@@noblerees1and the good bits in Journey's End like the sacrifice of Donna are then pissed away by RTD2.
Great show, Brendan. It is difficult to retain an impartial view in the chat, given the restrictions, which is nobody's fault. But give us something to be positive about and we'll be positive. But if it's crap, then crap it shall be be called. The point is, we want to be positive!
Any suggestions for shows and I will go to it - our dr who chat show with the whoppers will be all about our love of dr who but with lots of cheek and ridicule so that might work
Agree 100%, Shaun! Thanks for all your great contributions to the chat
@@noblerees1 Lol, that wasn't aimed at you, by the way, but more at the show itself in its current iteration. Have a good holiday, and would love to appear on the show at some point in the future, if I can get the tech sorted. Might need a few suggestions there...
Well Shaun cryer tell us when you are free to try
Dr Who died after Capaldi.
Or 1981, or 1969, or 1966.
Well my time was Pertwee/Tom and I felt it was going off the boil mid Davison (a possibly biased perspective but I'll stand firm that I was lucky to be prime age during the show's zenith). The film was a misfire but I enjoyed the revival, warts and all. I'd agree to extend to include Capaldi though, because despite the writing increasingly powered by fumes he was just so good in the role. And the support were pretty good too. I still think that when Moffat told Chibnall he was the only one who could take it on it was a hospital pass that the latter took as a compliment. And by way of a "rescue" we've got Celebrity Strictly Come Doctoring on Ice...
Thanks for another wonderful podcast!
Thank you
Thanks so much for your support, David!
I knew some of his work before Doctor Who, and he did a really good job overseeing the return of Doctor Who. Even if some of his individual scripts weren't all brilliant, he had a concept of what the show should be and employed lots of great writers.
This time round its almost all RTD and he seems to have lost his touch.
Yes I agree I felt his antenna was mostly accurate about dr who before
Many thanks, Brendan and all for a typically comprehensive and in depth discussion.
I never wanted Davies to return as showrunner. One unhinged public rant after another readily convinced me that he had sublimated his genuine loss and grief into an unwholesome crusade to elevate certain societal minorities at the expense of all others.
Sadly, I fear that Davies' and Doctor Who's legacies are destined to be inextricably linked because, where Chibnall was satisfied with reducing the show to the status of laughing stock, Davies has far loftier ambitions.
Only when that first child transitions, proudly and gratefully claiming it to be on the back of watching the show, will RTD2's debauched mission be complete.
After which, of course, will follow the change of heart as the physical and chemical abuse to which they have subjected themselves makes itself apparent. Then gratitude will become blame and a show that has long been rightly hailed as a wholesome, educative force for good will, seemingly overnight, be associated with child indoctrination and forever deemed unsuitable for children.
It will never recover and not a day will go by without my asking myself if the man who so lovingly restored it to global renown could really be responsible for so stigmatising it.
Thanks again and all the best for now.
Paul
Fantastic comment as usual, Paul. Of course, after any given individual has served their purpose in "justifying" RTD's insanity, they will be conveniently forgotten, *especially* when they have a change of heart later. They're no longer useful to The Message at that point.
@@gar535 Greatly appreciate your contribution to these proceedings, Gary, not least the excellent point you make in your reply. Cheers.
Like all false gods they demand a sacrifice.
@@nevillewatkins4997 Very well put!
How can you watch current WHO to enjoy it when so many misguided elements wuthin it make ones blood boil ?
I think RTD was always slightly naff, but we were just happy it came back in 2005.
I dislike the doctor into and aware of celebrity culture in dialogue
@@noblerees1 it dates the show and now those references are not current. He also obsesses over soaps, reality shows and chat shows (and now Bridgerton and Drag Race). They are not even literary/dramatic pop culture references.
Yes RTD goes for the easy simple contemporary reference to gaslight and distract but in future the shows will be very laboured, need explaining
I do think modern writers like RTD should be better educated about the subjects they pronounce on. More job, less gob please.
1. "Celestial" was an English rendition of the honorific title of the Qing Emperors (Son of Heaven), which was also used at a slightly lower level of formality to address their representatives for trade purposes. It wasn't a pejorative, although undoubtedly used incorrectly by some Westerners both personally and in popular entertainment. An inappropriate compliment at worst.
2. The great figures of Egyptology/archaeology were all gifted amateurs - the French classicist Champollion, the English artist Carter and the German modern polyglot Schliemann. While their expeditions were funded by powerful/wealthy patrons (less so in Schliemann's case with Troy) and prestigious artifacts were expatriated, the motivation was to discover, preserve, study and understand evidence of ancient civilisations, regarded as the wellspring of us all. You have to appreciate that the Egyptians (and other occupying factions) had thoroughly and destructively raided their own ancient sites over millennia to the point where they knew very little about their own history. Cleopatra didn't understand cuneiform or hieroglyphs. Tutenkhamun was actually a very minor pharaoh but the significance of Carter's find was that it hadn't been erm "looted".
Nobody is asserting that imperialism/colonialism was a saintly pursuit, far from it. But to simply dismiss these matters as "racism" and "cultural appropriation" is crass, ignorant and intellectually lazy.
PS Imo the Third Doctor's relationship with Jo was avuncular/parental. His touching and tasteful parting with her was the act of a mentor sadly and selflessly accepting his protege flying the nest. I too have been a teacher and the goal is to help them outgrow you. It's always a bit bittersweet. Hands down the best companion departure of the lot.
Oh this is priceless thank you for that fab information
@@noblerees1 Glad it was interesting Smoggie. I think you'd further agree that those in a position of influence - say, teachers and producers of popular entertainment, perhaps even fictional Doctors - have a responsibility to be reasonably solid on their own homework. Or at very least introduce subjects without blase steering and always with the encouragement to discover more.
O tempora, o Davies...
@@Pooter-it4ygI agree on all points - and I’ve been a teacher too.
Right from RTD’s second episode I felt that he had contempt for science and storytelling.
Well said. At last someone who gets it.
RTD thinks he's an intellectual, yet, as many of the points you've outlined amply illustrate, he needs to educate himself on so much.
He is too fond of the anecdotal "notes in the margin" approach to how the programme is made and actively enjoys constructing thin arguments to explain his reasoning.
He is prone to very lazy comments and assumes his every waking thought is of interest, when the fans would rather he just put in more graft.
His love of his own material and pathetic "jokes" like mavity are borderline disturbing. Then again, JN-T genuinely loved The Twin Dilemma and defended it to the hilt. I guess being too close to the franchise for long enough can manifest in a kind of low-level insanity.
But what is there in Davis Who to be positive about?
I try everytime
Um...thankfully this season was only 8 episodes long?😆
I was six years old when I watched Brain of Morbius. Does RTD think it would have appealed to me more if the Doctor had reignited thr Sisterhood of Karn's sacred flame by farting on it?
Interesting point because the use of a firework WAS playful without being infantile.
Based on the quote you mentioned, he doesn’t understand fantasy either.
Even fantasy has rules. Whether it's Lord of the Rings, the Discworld, or Harry Potter, or whatever, there are rules.
You have to have rules in drama. If there are no rules, then how can you create tension. If you're locked in a dungeon, but you can draw a door on the wall and escape like in a cartoon, there are no stakes.
Just rewatched the show, must say: RetroDoc made some oustanding points about Davis' methods
Thanks, Shaun! I'll have to relisten to remind myself which points you're referring to, but I appreciate the compliment!
I saw RTD and Steven Moffat interviewed recently. The thing that struck me most was Moffat "got" Who far better than RTD.
Steven Moffat's a genuine fan. Even when he screwed up, it came from a place of real love for Doctor Who. He would also correct a mistake, whether it was real or just perceived. For example, the New Paradigm Daleks could have worked if fans had taken time to get used to them but the backlash was so vicious that Moffat pushed them into the background. And he did it WITHOUT calling the fanbase toxic because he's actually one of us and was living the dream.
Retarded Trash Dildo only ever saw Doctor Who as a platform for his degenerate politics. Christopher Ecclestone was calling out his bullshit 2 decades ago.
They have made the Doctor 'Joe Average' in the street. He never was that, he never should be. He's an outsider, that was the fundamental characteristic of the man. He was an outsider who fit into situations on his own terms. That's why the first four actors, were the Doctor, and subsequent encumberments have been actors playing a character. Some better than others.
Once again, Shaun, you bring the absolute truth.
LOVE the BBC intro!
Bit late to comment, but never mind.
The mystery of who the Doctor is should not be a mystery to the Doctor - the Timeless Child storyline is the worst thing to have been done to the show.
The Chibnall era in general has damaged the show for many fans - it's at a point where i don't care what RTD is doing to the show, it's already broken.
Who beat Ant and Dec when it returned but later that first year, Who was up against Celebrity Wrestling, which barely got 1m.
1:00:00 Do you remember when being opppsed to homophobia meant divorcing homosexuality from its cultural signifiers like camp or hobbies atypical of ones sex, rather than reinforcing them? Remember that? I am sure I remember that.
There's only one Dr Who 1963 to 1989. The rest is fan fiction rubbish.